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Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast. The questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best

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Speaker 1: start changing it with the beck Del cast. Hey thirteen

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Speaker 1: year old Jamie. It's me, thirteen year old Caitlin Hey,

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Speaker 1: thirteen year old Caitlin is thirteen year old Jamie. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm about to who how do we okay? Listeners? We

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Speaker 1: were struggling with an intro, who is okay? Here's a question,

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Speaker 1: the central question of thirteen I thought when I was thirteen,

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Speaker 1: I was wrong, is who's the bad guy? Did not

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Speaker 1: occur to me that the bad guy was society? But I,

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Speaker 1: you know, of the two of us, who is the

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Speaker 1: bad influence? Good question? I know, Oh my gosh, well

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Speaker 1: it's hard to say. I actually now right now I'm

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Speaker 1: really thinking about it. We we have kind of equal

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Speaker 1: amounts of like we both have chaotic instincts, but they're

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Speaker 1: like not the same instincts. So I guess it depends

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Speaker 1: on like there's certain things that you're the bad influence on,

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Speaker 1: and then there's certain things on the beat. And that's

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Speaker 1: why we create a whole bad person because one bad

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Speaker 1: person collectively Hell yeah, because I was gonna say, like,

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Speaker 1: we have equal amounts of like tattoos, because tattoos equals bad.

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Speaker 1: Tattoos are bad. Do you what is your peers? I

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Speaker 1: don't have. I wanted a belly ring so bad in

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Speaker 1: middle school. It was physically painful. And my cousin Tammy,

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Speaker 1: who everyone in the Zoom Call has met, we went

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Speaker 1: to um eye Hoop with her and had minions breakfast

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Speaker 1: ever of it. Some really some real bad girls ship

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Speaker 1: at the eye hop. But she was allowed to get

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Speaker 1: a belly ring and I wasn't. And it was devastating,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure, and it was she was like even we

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Speaker 1: were both such like goody two shoes, but she was

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Speaker 1: even goody two shoes or so I think my aunt

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Speaker 1: was like, we gotta give this girl some edge. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you can get a belly y. I love that for Tammy,

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Speaker 1: shout out. The only thing I have pierced are my ears,

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Speaker 1: but I have like double piercings in the lobes and

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Speaker 1: then like a cartilage piercing. So cartilage, okay, cartilage is

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Speaker 1: like that's cool. And it was the first piercing I

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Speaker 1: got before I even got my lobes pierced, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of wild. You went directly for the bone. Um,

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Speaker 1: I mean the cartilage. But yeah, okay, oh okay, Nerd,

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Speaker 1: there there's a difference. Actually, thank you, resident biologist Kate Rent.

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Speaker 1: You're welcome. You're so welcome. That one's painful, though, it's

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Speaker 1: so painful, and it was like effected for a year,

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Speaker 1: and because I got it done at Claire's obviously and

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Speaker 1: it was just not the best experience. Then I got

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Speaker 1: my lobes pierced a few years later, which it's nothing comparatively.

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Speaker 1: I don't like being in physical pain even for one second.

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Speaker 1: And so I my lobe holes uh closed like a

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Speaker 1: year ago, and I have yet to go to Claris

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Speaker 1: to resolve the issue. My mom and I have this

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Speaker 1: I like, this is my very mother daughter episode and

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Speaker 1: then we're gonna start the show. My mom used to

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Speaker 1: love to do this thing when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: where if I was getting something exciting done, my mom

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Speaker 1: would be like, what if I want up to that?

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Speaker 1: And so when I went to Claire's to get my

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Speaker 1: lobes pierced, and I think I was like six seven

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Speaker 1: something like that, she just like we were at Claire's

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Speaker 1: at the Westgate Mall in Brocton. And then she was like,

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Speaker 1: she was like talking to this sixteen year old. This

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Speaker 1: is my memory, So she's more of a villain in

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Speaker 1: my memory than probably what's happening in real life. But

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Speaker 1: she's talking to like the fifteen year old who worked

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Speaker 1: at Clari's, and she's like, should I get my ears? Piers?

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Speaker 1: Should I get my car artilage? Piers as like, MoMA,

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Speaker 1: this is my day. And she did and she still

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Speaker 1: has it. Jill stole your thunder. Jill goes hard. Jill

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Speaker 1: goes hard. She's like, she's like a little girl. You

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Speaker 1: think you're gonna get your lobes, Piers, Well, guess what

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Speaker 1: mommy's going for the cart? All right, we might cut

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Speaker 1: that from the episode. It's hard to say. Come to

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Speaker 1: the Becktel cast. My name is Caitlin. Sorry that was exciting.

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Speaker 1: Well again, we are together, one whole person, so we

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Speaker 1: do have to speak in unison. Yes, take me orantis.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'll figure it out. We'll workshop it. We'll

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Speaker 1: workshop it. There's time. This is our show, so where

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Speaker 1: we analyze movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the

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Speaker 1: Bechtel tests. Simply as a jumping off point. The Bechtel

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Speaker 1: Test being, of course, a media metric created by a

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Speaker 1: queer cartoonist, Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test

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Speaker 1: that has many different variations, but the one we use

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Speaker 1: requires that two people of a marginalized gender have names

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Speaker 1: speak to each other about something other than a man,

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Speaker 1: and ideally that conversation is like substantial, narratively relevant, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: Not a huge deal in this movie. There's there's a lot,

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Speaker 1: there's interaction between teen girls and women. It's really not

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Speaker 1: a problem. Yeah, And we have an incredible returning guest

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Speaker 1: today to cover this two thousand and three, Katherine Hardwick

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Speaker 1: Nicky read Evan rachel Wood classic. Please let's get her

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Speaker 1: in the room, shall we, Caitlin, Let's do it. She's

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Speaker 1: a writer, actor, and video essayist. You remember her from

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Speaker 1: our episode on Edwards scissor Hands. It's Maggie may Fish.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back. Welcome. Sorry I meant to say, um, thirteen

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Speaker 1: year old Maggie may Fishing on this episode. Oh no,

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Speaker 1: I'm already sweating just as I remembered. Uh, Hi, guys,

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Speaker 1: it's so great to be back. Welcome back this is

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Speaker 1: and and what a what a vibe shift for for

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Speaker 1: this episode. Yeah, although both like you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: like trying to be like Edgy in a way, a

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Speaker 1: lot of angst, a lot of angst. Each director had

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Speaker 1: their own approach. Yeah. Yeah, I'm very um excited, confused,

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Speaker 1: like honestly going into preparing for this episode. Um. Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about our experience with this movie in a second,

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Speaker 1: But this is a really really tricky movie to talk about.

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Speaker 1: The more you learn about the production, the more you

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Speaker 1: learn about like it's I'm coming in with my opinions

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Speaker 1: a little malleable, and the more I watch that there's

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Speaker 1: been a lot of interesting retrospective work done, Like both

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Speaker 1: lead actors and Catherine Hardwick have been super open about

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Speaker 1: talking about this movie almost twenty years down the line. Now,

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Speaker 1: it's just there's there's a lot to discuss. So to begin,

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Speaker 1: Maggie may Fish, what is your history with the movie? Oh? Man,

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Speaker 1: I felt like my experience of this movie is very iconic. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it was a cool girl having to sleep over in

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Speaker 1: her very fancy house that was close to the beach

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Speaker 1: as all the cool houses where and all the cool

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Speaker 1: people lived. Yeah, she was turning thirteen sleepover. We watched

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Speaker 1: this movie. I think we also rented it behind her

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Speaker 1: mom's back. I think, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah. When

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Speaker 1: this movie came out, we definitely were because yeah, we

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Speaker 1: were like younger than thirty. We were not allowed to

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Speaker 1: watch it. It was not allowed, but the movie was

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Speaker 1: called thirteen and they were sticking their tongues out. You

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Speaker 1: did have to watch it. Yes, it felt very um

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Speaker 1: underground in a way. You know, it was like a

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Speaker 1: movie for people our age quote unquote, even though it's not.

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Speaker 1: And then watching it, I read who that's my big question?

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Speaker 1: Who was this movie for? Who is this for? Who's

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Speaker 1: this movie for? Um? Yeah, I do remember, and it

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Speaker 1: came back to me as we were watching it. I

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Speaker 1: remember the overall feeling of being like, how are we

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Speaker 1: supposed to feel about the mom? And are we getting

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Speaker 1: creepy vibes from her? Or is this just she's jealous?

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Speaker 1: Like if we were all very confused. Um, none of

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Speaker 1: us had a relationship with our moms like this, and

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Speaker 1: though we all had very complicated relationships with our mothers. Um,

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Speaker 1: so yeah that was just upon first impression. Uh, And

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Speaker 1: we did feel very cool watching it. I mean, I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's what that Jamie. What's your history in relationship with

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Speaker 1: the movie. UM, I don't remember exactly how we got

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Speaker 1: our hands on this movie, because this movie, I think

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Speaker 1: we probably I probably saw it like maybe the year

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Speaker 1: whenever it was like became available at I'm guessing Blockbuster.

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Speaker 1: But I I very clearly remember watching this with one

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Speaker 1: of my closest female friends who was like a neighborhood

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Speaker 1: friend who I had a very close, um, maybe a

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Speaker 1: little bit unhealthy relationship with. Um. Yeah, I will not

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Speaker 1: name her. She's doing great now, she's the best. But

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Speaker 1: we were super close growing up and like especially like

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Speaker 1: in middle school, we liked dance classes together, we did

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Speaker 1: after school stuff together. We like watch things we weren't

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Speaker 1: supposed to watch. We weren't doing like thirteen Ship, but

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Speaker 1: we were like, we were like we could do that,

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Speaker 1: you know, Like I don't know, it was just like

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Speaker 1: a very like my close friend who I loved, sleeping

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Speaker 1: in the same bed as and we would watch Degrassi

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Speaker 1: and thirteen is basically like X Game de Grassy and

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Speaker 1: so like we were like, oh, we thought it goes

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Speaker 1: there on the grassy, which was the tagline at the time. Well,

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Speaker 1: guess what, thirteen, It actually scared us. But also it

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Speaker 1: was like that sort of thing, like when you encounter

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Speaker 1: something like this when you're at that age, and I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing I was probably eleven or twelve when we watched it.

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Speaker 1: Um Like, there's a part of this movie that makes

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Speaker 1: you want to do everything in it, and that's a

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Speaker 1: part that I'm very critical of. And we talked about

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Speaker 1: this on the show before. It's like I had the

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Speaker 1: same kind of feeling towards the Grassy, Like there's certain

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Speaker 1: things that happened in this movie that I think are

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Speaker 1: like wildly unethical to show on screen, and it's anyone

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Speaker 1: I was looking through stuff at the time. It just

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Speaker 1: like this movie was co written by a thirteen year old.

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Speaker 1: It's absurd to think that thirteen year olds would not

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Speaker 1: find this movie. And so in some ways, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: this is really unethical, and then in other ways it

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Speaker 1: was a very effective cautionary tale about stuff that like

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Speaker 1: I don't know again, like I was a super goody

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Speaker 1: two shoes, and like watching this movie, I almost definitely

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Speaker 1: didn't hadn't heard of or didn't understand most of what

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Speaker 1: they were encountering or a lot of what they were encountering.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I think I only watched it like once

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Speaker 1: or two, I mean for as long as the blockbuster

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Speaker 1: rental lasted. But we like talked about it and we

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Speaker 1: were like, who's Eavy, Who's Tracy, blah blah blah, Like

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Speaker 1: we were really into it. And then I didn't revisit

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Speaker 1: it for years and years, And it was a wild

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Speaker 1: thing to rewatch because but the first time this came out,

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Speaker 1: for example, I didn't know who Vanessa Hudgins was. She

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Speaker 1: wasn't famous, and now we know. Now we all know

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Speaker 1: who Vanessa Hudgens. And the princess switched herself. She really

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Speaker 1: did something there, and uh yeah, it was like this movie,

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Speaker 1: I have such complicated feelings towards it, and as I

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Speaker 1: was preparing for this episode, I was struggling to untangle

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Speaker 1: my middle school self and analyze seeing it as a

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Speaker 1: crusty adult. So let's see how this goes. Caitlin, what's

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Speaker 1: your history with the movie thirteen? Well, I did see

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Speaker 1: it not long after it came out. I think, like

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Speaker 1: also when it became available to rent on like DVD,

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Speaker 1: maybe even VHS back then that covers hard to ignore.

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Speaker 1: I really got three. It's so like scrap booky looking. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I loved it. Um So, I was like sixteen or seventeen, sixteen,

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Speaker 1: I think when this movie came out, so I was,

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Speaker 1: you know, still an impressionable teenager, but um older than

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Speaker 1: the characters. Thirteen year olds are famously feral. I feel

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Speaker 1: like by the time you're sixteen, you're a little less feral, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it just depends on the person.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you're more feral by then. Some people are, that's true,

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Speaker 1: and some people stay feral their whole lives. And you

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Speaker 1: look at but um, I was also, uh, I was.

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Speaker 1: I was quite the goody two shoes myself. So I

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Speaker 1: found this movie like understandable but also disturbing at the time,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's the same impression I have of

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Speaker 1: it now. I find this movie more stressful to watch

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Speaker 1: than Uncut Gems. I guess that that is like the

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Speaker 1: go too stressful movie didn't compare it to but for

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Speaker 1: like different reasons obviously. I mean, I will say, before

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Speaker 1: preparing for this episode, I knew nothing about the production

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Speaker 1: background about Believing, and I sort of went into this

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Speaker 1: rewatched thinking this movie had to have been strictly a

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Speaker 1: cautionary tale, like in the way that I feel like

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Speaker 1: every generation has its like grand cautionary tale. I know

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Speaker 1: that my mom gave me a copy of her Generations

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Speaker 1: Cautionary tail, Go ask Alice Ship. Yeah, I wrote that

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Speaker 1: book right when I was a kid, and like that

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Speaker 1: for for listeners not in the know of how go

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Speaker 1: ask Alice culture, it's very bizarre. It is also a

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Speaker 1: cautionary tale about a young girl. I don't remember how

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Speaker 1: old she is in the book, but um, it's supposed

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Speaker 1: to be like an anonymous journal from like the nineties

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Speaker 1: seventies of a young girl who gets into drugs and

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Speaker 1: sex very young it destroys her life. Later on it

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Speaker 1: was revealed that it was not an anonymous journal by

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Speaker 1: a twelve year old girl who I think canonically dies. Um,

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Speaker 1: it was written by an old lady under an assumed

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Speaker 1: name to scare young girls out of doing anything. It's

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Speaker 1: far more complicated than that. But this is like a

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Speaker 1: recurring I feel like every generation has a story like this.

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Speaker 1: But the kind of like wrench in that for thirteen

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Speaker 1: is that Nicky Reid was extremely involved in the writing

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Speaker 1: of this, So there was a thirteen year old girl

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Speaker 1: and it's like based off of her life, right, and

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Speaker 1: it's like, so a thirteen year old girl's perspective is

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Speaker 1: like absolutely cannon to this movie. And rewatching it back,

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Speaker 1: it was like, oh, I feel like that actually does

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Speaker 1: come through Again, we'll get into the ethics of it,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, this is a really sticky, interesting movie. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: shall I recap it? Yeah? Good luck. I love this

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Speaker 1: part of the podcast. By the way, Caitlin, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for doing it every time. Truly, she's braver

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Speaker 1: than the truths for this. Oh my goodness, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much. Um. Well, actually, let's take a quick break

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Speaker 1: first and then I'll come back and recap. And we're

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Speaker 1: back and here they are with the famous Caitlin. First,

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Speaker 1: I'll do a content slash trigger warning for everything, like

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Speaker 1: for for everything self harm, teen drug use, teens, sex,

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Speaker 1: and sexuality that's mostly suggested and not but like some

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Speaker 1: of it is kind of shown on screen. What else,

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Speaker 1: I mean, discussion of sexual abuse and physical abuse, of

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Speaker 1: depictions of overdose, kind of name it. It's referenced or

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Speaker 1: happens in the movie. Right. Yeah, So the movie opens,

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Speaker 1: we meet two girls who are presumably thirteen years of age.

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Speaker 1: One of them is Tracy played by Evan rachel Wood.

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Speaker 1: We see her friend also, who will turn out to

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Speaker 1: be e V. Samora. They are inhaling like keyboard cleaner,

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Speaker 1: like some kind of thing from an aerosol can. They're

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Speaker 1: getting high. They are punching each other because they can't

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Speaker 1: feel anything, and they're trying to see if they can

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Speaker 1: like sense paint. We then cut to four months earlier.

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Speaker 1: Tracy is a you know, quote unquote normal kid. She

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Speaker 1: comes from kind of like a lower middle class background,

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Speaker 1: working class background. We meet Tracy's mom, Melanie played by

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Speaker 1: Holly Hunter. Did not know who Holly Hunter was. The

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Speaker 1: first time I saw this movie totally forgot she was

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Speaker 1: in it. I did because Oh, Brother Were Art though,

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Speaker 1: was one of my favorite movies at the time, So yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're so cool. Oh my gosh. Melanie is a single mom.

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Speaker 1: She works as a hairdresser. She's in a twelve step program.

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Speaker 1: We also meet Tracy's older brother, Mason played by Brady Corbett,

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Speaker 1: who goes to school with Tracy. It seems like he's

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Speaker 1: like a year or two older. We also meet Tracy's

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Speaker 1: friend Noel that's Vanessa Hudgens Wild how Vanessa Hudgens was

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Speaker 1: like just They're like, oh, we need a good girl.

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Speaker 1: We gotta get Vanessa Hudgens in the mix, like she

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Speaker 1: was so good girl Cannon in this era high school

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Speaker 1: musical much the Best Girl, Find Me a Better Girl.

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Speaker 1: We see Tracy and Noel on their first day of

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Speaker 1: first day, I'm not sure a day of seventh grade.

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Speaker 1: There's another girl at school, Evie Zamora, played by Nicky Reid,

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Speaker 1: who again co wrote the screenplay. This movie is based

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Speaker 1: on her experience from like ages twelve to thirteen. Also,

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Speaker 1: the use of the name Evie. I was like, okay, Bible, okay,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting. Is there a biblical character named I've never

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Speaker 1: read them? Well, here is Eve, the o g tempest.

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Speaker 1: Do I tell them this story? Have heard of Eve?

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Speaker 1: I That my guess is because this movie does makes

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Speaker 1: a lot of broad writing choices, that the use of

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Speaker 1: Eve was intentional because she goes into a garden and

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Speaker 1: then there's like a snake there and the snake is like,

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Speaker 1: eat this apple. And he was like, okay, well, I

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Speaker 1: feel like a story right, That's exactly how it goes.

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Speaker 1: It's like the moral is um women are bad um.

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Speaker 1: Except for Vanessa Hudgens, except for Vanessa Hudgens, who gets

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Speaker 1: written out in midway that scene where poor sweetie Vanessa

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Speaker 1: Hudgens is in her like puppy shirt or whatever, and

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Speaker 1: it's like Evan Rachel would hang out with me and

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Speaker 1: they're like look and then just like bail on her.

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Speaker 1: You're like Vanessa sad. And then she goes to a

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Speaker 1: ski lodge with her family and her life changes because

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Speaker 1: she meets to think that that's can and she's like,

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Speaker 1: I have to my only friend broke up with me.

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Speaker 1: I have to move to East High exactly. Okay. So

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Speaker 1: there's this girl Evie. She's like very popular, she's cool.

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Speaker 1: All the boys like her, all the girls think she's

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Speaker 1: super cool. Tracy is feeling very insecure about like her

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Speaker 1: clothes and just sort of her whole persona because some

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Speaker 1: like girls make a mean comment about what she's wearing.

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Speaker 1: So she comes home, she like throws away all of

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Speaker 1: her barbies and stuffed animals, and she wants to be

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Speaker 1: more mature, more grown up. And part of this is

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Speaker 1: her approaching ev at school and like trying to befriend her,

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Speaker 1: and Evie is like, why don't you call me after

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Speaker 1: school and we can go shopping on Melrose And I'm like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I guess we're in Los Angeles. Ever heard of it there?

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Speaker 1: This is already where I feel like me and Tracy

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Speaker 1: diverged in a wood at that time, because I would

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Speaker 1: never be have enough to talk to a popular girl,

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Speaker 1: especially if she then gave me a fake phone number.

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Speaker 1: I would um, I would walk into the ocean if

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Speaker 1: that had happened. Yes, But this does not deter Tracy,

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Speaker 1: and she goes and somehow knows exactly where Evie is

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Speaker 1: shopping at this exact moment, and she goes to this

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Speaker 1: store because she does try to call Evie and like

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Speaker 1: the numbers not in service, so it's like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: guess Evie gave her the wrong phone number on purpose,

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Speaker 1: question Mark. But Tracy goes to find her, and she

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Speaker 1: watches Evie and her friend shoplift, which Tracy is like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this is new territory. But then she

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Speaker 1: goes and steals a woman's wallet at a bus stop

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Speaker 1: or she was having a bad day, she was having

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Speaker 1: a bad day. You get here and then her wallet

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Speaker 1: with and it's full of cash. So Tracy Evie and

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Speaker 1: Evie's friend Asterriid. I think we learned her name is.

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Speaker 1: They go to say Chers and buy a bunch of shoes.

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Speaker 1: I know the Sketchers they go to. Do you guys

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Speaker 1: know the Sketchers. I think it's still there. If it's

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Speaker 1: the Hollywood Boulevard Sketchers, I'm like, I've browsed there, Okay,

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Speaker 1: browsed there. Wow. I can't believe I went to the

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Speaker 1: Sketchers from thirteen. I didn't even know. Amazing A great story.

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Speaker 1: Um So back home. Tracy's mom Melanie her on again,

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Speaker 1: off again boyfriend Brady played by what's the guy's name?

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Speaker 1: Jeremy's sister. How do we know who Jeremy's sister is?

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Speaker 1: Every time I see him, I go oh yeah, oh

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Speaker 1: yeah him? Is that? What is he famous for? How

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Speaker 1: do we know who? Oh? He was in six ft Under?

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Speaker 1: That doesn't help because I didn't want to show. But

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Speaker 1: I think that that's what people know him from. Oh

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Speaker 1: he's in clueless. I think that's what I recognize him from.

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Speaker 1: As Elton. Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes he's the

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Speaker 1: guy that you're supposed to want share with and then

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Speaker 1: he turns out to be an asshole and he bails

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Speaker 1: on her. Right, that's Jeremy Sister, got it. Yes, he

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Speaker 1: is an addict, like recovering addict. Who um. It's suggested

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Speaker 1: that like he and Melanie know each other from the

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Speaker 1: twelve step program, he also seems to like bail on

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Speaker 1: Melanie and kind of only be around when it's convenient

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Speaker 1: for him. So Tracy really resents him and the way

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Speaker 1: that he treats her mom and also has been like

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Speaker 1: exposed to him withdrawing from drugs in a way that

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Speaker 1: I think was really scary for her or position as. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the way this movie treats addiction I thought was interesting,

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Speaker 1: like where it's like you can totally understand that from

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Speaker 1: a however old she was then eleven or twelve year

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Speaker 1: olds perspective, that's a really scary thing to see. And

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Speaker 1: also that that's not that doesn't make Jeremy Sister a

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Speaker 1: bad person. Like, Yeah, So Tracy and ev get closer.

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Speaker 1: Evi turns out to sell acid. She and Tracy go

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Speaker 1: to a park, they get high, they're kissing some boys.

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Speaker 1: They're spending more and more time with each other, and

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Speaker 1: Tracy is spending less and less time with her mom,

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Speaker 1: less and less time with Vanessa Hudgens. That's a red flag,

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Speaker 1: a bat path. I feel like, so Evie is sort

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Speaker 1: of like the Vanessa Hudgens character and princess switched to

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Speaker 1: the bad what was her name? Fiona? And honestly amazing

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Speaker 1: that you remember that. I think that that is true.

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Speaker 1: I would not have gotten that with a gun to

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Speaker 1: my head. And then Vanessa Hudgens character in the movie

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Speaker 1: thirteen is Vanessa Hudgens, the Chicago Baker, the worst Vanessa Hudgens,

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Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned, the flop Vanessa Hudgens. I

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Speaker 1: hate that the main Vanessa Hudgens is like the worst one.

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Speaker 1: It's like, give me more bad British accent Vanessa Hudgens

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Speaker 1: where she's what I'm saying, yeah, exactly, heart degree. So Tracy,

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Speaker 1: you know, she's again she's kind of bailing on her

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Speaker 1: her like former friends and family. She's slacking off at school,

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Speaker 1: she's dressing more suggestively, she gets her tongue pierced, and

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Speaker 1: we're like, okay, Evie perhaps is a bad influence on Tracy.

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Speaker 1: And then Evie confides in Melanie that Evie's guardian, this

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Speaker 1: woman Brooke, who is Evie's older cousin that Brook's boyfriend

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Speaker 1: is physically abusive to Evie. And then this is kind

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Speaker 1: of the start of a relationship between Evie and Melanie

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Speaker 1: that we can unpack. But there's some kind of there's

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Speaker 1: a dynamic happening here that's worth discussing. Every complicated to me.

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Speaker 1: The movie starts to get like, this is where yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is where I come undone. You're just like,

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Speaker 1: but but ev essentially moves in to the family home

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Speaker 1: because everyone is allowed to move into the family home, right,

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Speaker 1: Because there's a friend of Melanie's who is played by

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Speaker 1: the same actor who plays Bella Swan's mom in Twilight,

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Speaker 1: which this is like ground zero Catherine Hardwick, which is

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Speaker 1: why I never connected that. That's why Nicki Reid is

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Speaker 1: a cullin. Yes, she plays Rosalie. Is that right? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's how I feel like she became super super famous.

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Speaker 1: But I I totally forgot that, Like that is why

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Speaker 1: she probably got cast in that movie. Wild. Didn't even

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Speaker 1: make that connection until like two days ago. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize and we'll get into it. I didn't

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Speaker 1: realize that Nikki Reid like grew up with Catherine hart

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess why would you infer that? But

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00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: like their relationship is very close and like still I

421
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: mean I watched a bunch of interviews from like just

422
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. It seems like the three

423
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 1: of them Evan Rachel would Nicky Reid, and um, Katherine

424
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: Hardwick are still very close, which I think is sweet.

425
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: But then also the ethics of this movie are so weird. Okay,

426
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: circle bam. The point is though, that, um, that Melanie

427
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: is extremely accommodating and whenever someone needs help, she kind

428
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: of bends over backwards to help them. So she has

429
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: this friend who has a young daughter who uh stay

430
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: with them for a few days, and she's again a

431
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: hairdresser who seems to like feed all of her clients

432
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: all the time. She's just very accommodating. Um, it's hard

433
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: not to like love mel She really cares about people.

434
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: But then sometimes it's like but this, you're you're fostering

435
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: and not help the environment for your kids. But also

436
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: sometimes you're like, but I get why she wants to

437
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: help people out. No, yeah, she's complicated. Meanwhile, Tracy's dad,

438
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: who is obviously like separated from Melanie, he bails on

439
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: spending time with Tracy, which upsets her, as does Melanie

440
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 1: continuing to see this guy Brady. So there's a lot

441
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: of stuff with Tracy's family that is upsetting to her,

442
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: and Tracy's relationship with Melanie is getting more and more tense.

443
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,719
Speaker 1: We're also seeing like Eve trying to get closer to

444
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: Tracy's mom in this weird and arguably manipulative way a

445
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: lot of times. Um we also see Tracy self harming.

446
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: We'll go back to that because I really don't think

447
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: they should have shown that you can address that without

448
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: showing thirteen year old how to do that. Get Then

449
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: this guy Hobby wants to like hang out with Slash

450
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: go out with Tracy, and so he and some other

451
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: guy go over to Evie's place and hang out with

452
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: Tracy and Evie. We see the two kind of pairs

453
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: of them making out, and then it's later implied that

454
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: Tracy gives Hobby oral sex. Things are continuing to get

455
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: more and more out of hand. Tracy and Evie like

456
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: sneak out when they're supposed to be at the movies.

457
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: Tracy gets all funked up. She's been like experimenting with

458
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: drugs this whole time, drugs and alcohol. Her brother Mason

459
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: catches her. He's ready to tell on her. He like

460
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: slut shames her things like hit critical mass at home,

461
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: where Melanie finds out a bunch of stuff. She finds

462
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: out about Tracy's different piercings. Tracy's really acting out, and

463
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: Melanie wants Tracy to go live with her dad a bit,

464
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: but he's too busy with work and just kind of

465
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: absent overall. He's not able to take her in. And

466
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: then Tracy is like, well, I think I would get

467
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: along better with everyone if Evie could just live here,

468
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: which very much puts Melanie on the spot, but because

469
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: she's so kind of like accommodating, she doesn't like challenge

470
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: this at first. Um then we cut to the scene

471
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: we saw at the beginning where Tracy and Evie are

472
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: huffing the air soul and getting high and punching each other.

473
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: Melanie sees the aftermath of this, and it's like, what

474
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: the fuck? And there's also this at the time, it

475
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: looks honestly a little goofy now, but at the time

476
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, iconic. As she descends into thirteen

477
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: year old debauchery. The aesthetic of the movie. The movie

478
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: just gets bluer and bluer and bluer, and then at

479
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: the end it looks like a scene from Twilight, which

480
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: her name. It's a very blue and gray movie. It's

481
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: just like you're watching Katherine Hardwick arrive at her Twilight

482
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: aesthetic throughout the course of this movie, and it is

483
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: like watching it now, I'm just like, this feels like

484
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: such a cautionary tale where it like almost feels like

485
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: a p s a creative choice. But at that time,

486
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: I was like, I know, you're like, oh my god, genius, genius.

487
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: Never seen anything like it. So Tracy she misses a

488
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: big school project. She lies to her teacher. She's basically

489
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: hitting rock bottom, especially after Evie starts blowing her off

490
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: because Melanie was like, sorry, Evie, I can't let you

491
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: live here. So Tracy now feels abandoned by Evie and

492
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: the other popular girls. She feels abandoned by her dad.

493
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: She's self harms again. She then learns that she might

494
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: fail the seventh grade and get held back, and then

495
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: Melanie and Brooke again Evie's guardian hold basically like an intervention.

496
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: After finding at Ash of drugs and money that was

497
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: hidden around Tracy's room, stuff that Evie had put there,

498
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: but is not taking the fall for it. She's kind

499
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: of dumping all the blame on Tracy and Evie and

500
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: Brooke act like Tracy is the one who had been

501
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: a bad influence on Evie. But luckily Melanie sees through

502
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: this bullshit and kicks them out. Tracy is just sobbing.

503
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: Melanie comforts her, She discovers Tracy's injuries from self harming,

504
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: and then just embraces Tracy, and the movie ends with

505
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: Melanie spending the night holding and comforting Tracy. So that

506
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: is how the movie ends. Let's take a quick break

507
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: and then come back to discuss, and we're back. I

508
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: do feel like, before getting into the main discussion, the

509
00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: production history of this movie is really relevant. I want

510
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: to learn more. Yeah, because I am blissfully ignorant of

511
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: what went down. So this is like a very I

512
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, throughout the course of researching this,

513
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: I feel like my personal opinion changed several times. So

514
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,479
Speaker 1: I was surprised to see that Nikki Reid, who was

515
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: fourteen when this movie was shot, is a credited screenwriter

516
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: on this movie not you know, call me ages. But

517
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: I didn't know fourteen year olds can write movies. Um,

518
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: but here is the situation. Okay, So NICKI read this

519
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: is at the time she said heavily pulled from her

520
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: own life, so she from like the year before this movie.

521
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: That's where I get like, because I was just like, oh,

522
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: if I made a movie about my life when I

523
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: was thirteen, it would also be very over dramatic and

524
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,479
Speaker 1: paint my family as villains. Um. So it's a complicated thing,

525
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: and she's I have some quotes from her in later

526
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: years of her kind of reflecting on this, which I

527
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: think are really interesting. The good thing is that it

528
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: seems like the three main people involved here, Evan Rachelwood,

529
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 1: Nicky Reid, and Katherine Hardwick all do stand by the

530
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,439
Speaker 1: movie they've done reflecting on it, and it doesn't seem

531
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: like anyone anyone's you know, life was wrecked by this

532
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: movie having made. I still think it's an interesting discussion. So. Uh.

533
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: Nicky Reid grew up in l A. Her dad was

534
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,479
Speaker 1: a production designer, her mom was a hair dresser. They

535
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 1: got divorced very young. She has an older brother. Um.

536
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: She did not apparently in retrospect, she said, like, well,

537
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: I didn't actually do as much as I said I

538
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: did at the time, but she did. She did. Um,

539
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: you know, I think have to grow up very quickly

540
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: and felt as a kid kind of neglected to varying

541
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: degrees by her parents. So in the movie, like, Tracy

542
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: is the insert for Nikki Reid, and EV is more

543
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: or of a construction of general debauchery. I guess, as

544
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: far as I know, ev is not based on any

545
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 1: particular person, but Tracy is very much the Nicky Read

546
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: character stand in, which is confusing because Nicki Reid plays

547
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: e V. But in real life, Nicki Reid was the

548
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: Tracy character, not the Evy character, which I guess was

549
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 1: very intentionally done right because it was like, you don't

550
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: want to just like react out your own trauma as

551
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: a kid. It's still complicated no matter what happens. So

552
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: where Katherine Hardwick fits in is she dated Nicky Reid's

553
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: father for a while. Kiss. Katherine Hardwick also started as

554
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: a production designer, so I'm assuming they knew each other

555
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: through work. Don't really know, um, but she dated Nicki

556
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: Reid's dad when Nicki Reid was like five years old.

557
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: I don't know when things broke off, but I know

558
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,720
Speaker 1: that Katherine Hardwick was very close with the kids, Nicky

559
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: Red and her older brother, and that even after the breakup,

560
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: Katherine Hardwick wanted to stay involved in the kids lives.

561
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: There's a lot of gray area here. It's hard to

562
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: figure out the particulars, but basically, Katherine Hardwick said she

563
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: wanted to stay involved in the kids lives, so she

564
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: started seeing their mother to get her hair done. Question Mark, Like,

565
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: I I that is, I guess what happened. But so

566
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: she and Nikki remained close and per both of them

567
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: around the time Nikki was turning twelve and thirteen entering

568
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: middle school. She I mean in the way that a

569
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 1: lot of like kids going through puberty go like, she

570
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: you know, became moody. She was like going out when

571
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: she wasn't supposed to. She was playing her divorced parents

572
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 1: against each other and sort of you know, doing I

573
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: think kind of a diet version of what you see

574
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: in the movie thirteen. So Katherine Hardwick, I get like

575
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: the way that they tell the story is that Catherine

576
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: Hardwick was concerned about Nikki and wanted to give her

577
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,800
Speaker 1: a productive, creative outlet to think about and talk about

578
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: what she was going through that wasn't acting out and

579
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: potentially hurting herself and other people. So she invites Nikki

580
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,919
Speaker 1: over to her house and over the course of six

581
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 1: days they write out the plot to so they built

582
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: it together. Katherine Hardwick had not directed a movie at

583
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: this time, but then becomes really into the idea and

584
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: starts to say, like, Okay, I actually do want to

585
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: make this movie, Nikki. I want you to be in it,

586
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: and like we're gonna make the movie and that is

587
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:54,919
Speaker 1: how it comes to be. Thoughts, Wow, I think it's

588
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 1: it's it's hard. I mean, ultimately, as long as Nikki

589
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 1: read it feels okay. Now that's the most important thing.

590
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: And it's like our opinion doesn't super matter. But I

591
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 1: but I do think Katherine hard Work was a little

592
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: bit wrong for that. Like I think it's one thing

593
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: to be like let's do a creative writing exercise, let's reflect,

594
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: and let's you know, like work together. But it's like

595
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: thrusting a kid into that. Like the negative consequence of

596
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: this movie for Nikki Reid was I mean, on the

597
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: bright side, she got a whole last career out of it.

598
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 1: She gave an incredible performance. She is credited as a

599
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 1: co writer, which I feel like not every adult would do,

600
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,919
Speaker 1: and like she does get a well deserved career out

601
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: of this. But also she has said, and we'll link

602
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: this in the description, there's like a really interesting Refinery

603
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: twenty nine like retrospective on this movie where it's the

604
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: three of them talking and you know, Nikki Reid and

605
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: Evan rachel Wood are in their thirties now, but for

606
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 1: for years, like this movie most directly affected Nikki because

607
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: it was her telling her perspective of her parents divorce.

608
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: As we'll discuss, neither of the parents come off particularly well,

609
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: and she's you know, when the movie comes out, she's

610
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: like fourteen, fifteen years old and still living with her mom,

611
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: and her mom has to see Holly Hunter play her,

612
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: and like she had a really really tense relationship with

613
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 1: both of her parents after this movie was released, and

614
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: I guess that she didn't speak to her father for years.

615
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: They later repaired their relationship, but it's like, per I

616
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 1: don't have a direct quote from her on this, or

617
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: maybe I do, but her general thing was like she

618
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: ten years after this movie came out, when she was

619
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: in her twenties, expressed regret at being kind of harsh

620
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 1: on her parents. She oh, I have a direct quote

621
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 1: about this, you do? Okay? I would, because I it's

622
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: buried in my notes. I pulled it from scholarly journal Wikipedia,

623
00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: but the quote is pulled originally from like People or

624
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 1: something like I think, like a Huffington Post maybe peace

625
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: point is here's the quote. Um Nicky read in says,

626
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 1: and this is paraphrasing, but that she regrets the way

627
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: she portrayed her family uh in the movie thirteen, saying quote,

628
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: I wrote this movie about them and their flaws and

629
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: imperfections and what it was like growing up. It was

630
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: from one kid's perspective and not a well rounded one.

631
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: You get older and it's like, how dare I portray

632
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: my father as being a totally vacant, careless schmuck unquote

633
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 1: So um, which I think is like, I mean again,

634
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: only she knows what her childhood was really like. But

635
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: this does seem to it's definitely the most loaded experience

636
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: for Nikki read specifically, which I do think kind of

637
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: opens uh portal of everyone's going to have a different

638
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: opinion on this, of like Katherine Hardwick is you know,

639
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 1: in her late forties when she makes this movie, you

640
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,800
Speaker 1: would have to know that like that is going to

641
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: affect this kid you love's relationship with her family. And

642
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: it's like it's like, on one hand, you want to

643
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: respect her creative voice and you don't want to like

644
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: tell her that her perception of what's happening in her

645
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 1: life is wrong, Like certainly not. But on the other hand,

646
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: she's a kid. And because I am ultimately glad that

647
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: this movie exists, I feel like there's truly nothing else

648
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 1: I've ever seen like it, and so many I mean,

649
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 1: and this movie can skew a little preachy at times,

650
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: but like but in terms of like pulling from an

651
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 1: actual kid's experience and making her voice really really important

652
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: to the movie, like there's there's not a lot of

653
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: movies like that. And then on the other hand, it

654
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 1: negatively affected her life for a while. She had to

655
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: drop out of high school. Like there's a there's a

656
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 1: quote from Nikki read Um. She says, quote religious people

657
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: who don't even know me are calling my mom to

658
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: telling her she should burn in hell and that God

659
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 1: hates her. My mom can't defend herself to the world

660
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: she's such an amazing woman with such an open heart.

661
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: It's a real hard line and I crossed it. So again,

662
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,399
Speaker 1: she's a kid when these decisions are made, and it's

663
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's a real meyer. And well, on

664
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: top of that, you have a movie where you're casting

665
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: literal teenagers because Evan Rachel would and Nicky Reid we're

666
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 1: both fourteen years old during the filming of this movie,

667
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: and then I think Evan Rachel would turn fifteen during

668
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: the shoot, which was like a twenty four days shoot.

669
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 1: But they're like teens, right, They're very young, and so

670
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: them as actors are made to do things on set

671
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:51,280
Speaker 1: that are inappropriate for like teenagers to be doing. Um

672
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: I felt, and I think like the filming of it

673
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 1: was probably handled as responsibly as you can handle something

674
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: like that. But like you're having to fourteen year olds

675
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: like straddling teen boys, like making out with them. They're broad,

676
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,760
Speaker 1: like their shirts are off there like braws or exposed.

677
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: You're having teenagers like smoke cigarettes and yeah, they were

678
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: filled with catnip according to something I read, but that

679
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: was the way I was that was presented was like, well,

680
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: don't worry it with cat, it was I also don't

681
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: want my fourteen year old. Yeah, and then I read

682
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: that um like like the crushed pills that they were

683
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: snorting were actually quote harmless dietary supplements, and it's like,

684
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, dietary supplements are not harmless. And then like

685
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 1: I read that, um, all the scenes where Tracy was

686
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 1: inflicting self harm, they were all shot in a single day,

687
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: and that everyone Rachel would her brother would have to like, yeah,

688
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: like go to her brother for emotional emotional support between

689
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: the takes of these scenes, because I think just filming

690
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: that was very traumatic, understandably. Yeah. So yeah, you're having

691
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 1: these actors like do these like very sexually explicit things

692
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: on camera, like simulating drug the use sets, I mean,

693
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: and that kind of brings it back to the thing

694
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: where it's like there's no other movie like this, but

695
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: that is for a reason, and like this, I don't

696
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 1: know if this is a story that you could possibly

697
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: tell ethically, which unless it's like animated, which would also

698
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: makes for some weird probably like tonal disconnect, right, which

699
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: which I feel like that is kind of tends to

700
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: be cw NET negative anyways, and right, right, and then

701
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: you don't get that actual perspective that is appreciated in

702
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: the movie of like, you know, someone's perception of their

703
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,959
Speaker 1: own experience att is like this intense, and that's also

704
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: something that isn't often captured. It's like it's a real

705
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: it's a real Maria and like reading how what Evan

706
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 1: rachel Wood's experience was. And at this point she was

707
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: like a well seasoned child actor, like she'd been performing

708
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: for some time. I think her dad was also an actor,

709
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: and that's a whole Like I feel like we're having

710
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 1: the most recent round of child star discourse, which I

711
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: um respectfully tap out of um, but but I mean

712
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: I think that I mean in this in the case

713
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: of this movie, it's very relevant because and I can't

714
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: think of another situation like it where it's like it's

715
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: very common that teens, teenagers, especially teenage girls are exploited

716
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,720
Speaker 1: in movies like this and and like you know, made

717
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: to do, like putting sexual situations in movies very early on.

718
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: There's always some sort of pressure, especially with an indie

719
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: movie like this, where it's like doing this whole movie

720
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: in twenty four days also doesn't seem like it's possible

721
00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: to do completely ethnically spotlessly with not a lot of money, right,

722
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 1: like on a low budget where you can't hire probably

723
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: all the like people you need to hire to make sure.

724
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,439
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm speculating here and to be fair. So

725
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: there's there's a scene which I think we should talk

726
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 1: about for other reasons, but there's a scene where the

727
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: two girls more or less assault this guy, Luke, this

728
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: older guy who seems to be friends with Mason. They

729
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: come onto him. He is very reluctant. He's like saying no,

730
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 1: he's pushing them off. Uh. We have Nicky Reid and

731
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: Evan Rachel would like kissing this guy, kind of like

732
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: getting on top of him. All this stuff. On set

733
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: were just a few crew members. There were social workers

734
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 1: and parents present, so there were at least people. They're

735
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: just kind of like making sure this was like again

736
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 1: as safely and ethically done as possible, and the pretty

737
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 1: consistent with this production. But it's like, I don't know

738
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: my opinion that is, like, Okay, I'm a fourteen year

739
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: old the actor acting out this scene, Like I appreciate

740
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: that my parents would be there to look out for

741
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 1: you and make sure you're not pressured to do anything

742
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,399
Speaker 1: you don't want to do. But on the other hand,

743
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 1: I don't want my parents watching me do that ship

744
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: I'm fourteen years old, Like what the fuck right? It's

745
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: like it's there's no winning, and it's just the fact

746
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,959
Speaker 1: that it's like, okay to fourteen year olds make out

747
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: with this older guy, this older actor to do that

748
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: at all, to do that on camera, like it just

749
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 1: felt icky. Of all the many vignettes in this movie

750
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 1: that is so cutible that I was like, why is this,

751
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 1: Like you achieved the same downward spiral without having to

752
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 1: fourteen year old actors do that. It kind of didn't.

753
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: It didn't add anything like, looking at just from a

754
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 1: story perspective, it's so get ridable and yeah, not in

755
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: any way. I don't know. Yeah, I didn't did not

756
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 1: like that scene. Um yeah, I'm trying to think if

757
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: there's any other Oh, I just want to say that

758
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 1: the last thing for Nikki Read and Evan rachel Wood,

759
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: I think a little heavier on Nikki Reads side, But um,

760
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 1: this also feels very two thousands and probably still now.

761
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: I'm probably um giving the present too much credit. But

762
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,399
Speaker 1: Nikki Reid co wrote this movie had a huge hand

763
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: in shaping it and making it what it was. She

764
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: gave an amazing performance, and then her career very quickly

765
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 1: became her playing other heavily sexualized teenage characters for years

766
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: and years and years until she did Twilight and then

767
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: was able to like access more roles. But it was

768
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 1: that sort of thing where it was like she did

769
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: I mean, she did a pretty amazing thing here, and

770
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: then instead of being treated as like, Wow, this kid

771
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 1: can like really write and perform, they're like, oh, just

772
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: do that again, and we like that. We liked that, Yeah,

773
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 1: like do the part where you are exploited over and

774
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 1: over and like, which is very of the era and

775
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: like not at all surprising, but also like, I don't know,

776
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: this movie did a lot of good things for the

777
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: people involved, and I feel like it had like a

778
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: pretty negative I don't know, there's I was like it

779
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 1: was Catherine Hardwick was like a little bit wrong for

780
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: this and I but I also know that this movie

781
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: means a lot to a lot of people, and I

782
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: don't want to like discount that either. I know it's

783
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 1: very I mean it was like formative for me and

784
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: there is nothing like it, right, But there's all these

785
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: like weird asterisk situations that you don't you can't ignore,

786
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: and the ethics of this movie are all over the place.

787
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 1: It's just like it's it's a it's a bit of

788
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: a mind fuck. It's one of those things where I

789
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 1: think people will be like, well, the ends justify the

790
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 1: means because like, and I'm not saying that's what I believe.

791
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,879
Speaker 1: I'm I don't think this movie should have been made

792
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 1: like this exactly. I think you can explore very intense

793
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: yet authentic experience that a lot of adolescents have without

794
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: like exploiting the young people involved in excative But um again,

795
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 1: like you said, Jimmy, this movie is because it is

796
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 1: thanks to the very close involvement from Nicki Reid, like

797
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 1: telling her own story. This does feel authentic. Not to

798
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: everyone's experience, of course, but plenty of impressionable teens who

799
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: are dealing with a whole array of difficult like societal pressures,

800
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 1: struggles at home, exposure to like addiction from people they know,

801
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,240
Speaker 1: and that kind of being a path for their own addiction.

802
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:54,879
Speaker 1: Like all this stuff gets explored that is worth exploring

803
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 1: and like worth representing on screen. But it's I just

804
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 1: feel like there's like if you isolated it, like scene

805
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 1: by scene, choice by choice. There's a lot that I

806
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 1: wish had been done differently, I do. I mean, it's

807
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 1: like we could talk about this all day of like

808
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 1: is there a way to ethically make a movie like

809
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 1: this on this budget? I don't know, Like, I don't know.

810
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 1: I'm not unhappy it exists. It seems like the main

811
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: people involved are very happy that they made it. But

812
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 1: also I think it's interesting that, like I didn't. I

813
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: also thought it was cool that Nicky Reid was like

814
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: so willing to publicly reflect on the effect that it has. Yeah,

815
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, I mean think I think a lot

816
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: of actresses would feel pressured to be like, I don't know,

817
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:43,439
Speaker 1: it was great and I'm grateful for it, but her

818
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: being like, you know, yeah, and I and I do

819
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: think that Catherine Hardwick was like made some irresponsible creative

820
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,839
Speaker 1: decisions by putting young actors in sexual situations that are

821
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: not just you know, kind of unethical on its face

822
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 1: at all, but also don't even move the story forward.

823
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: So what then are you doing? Right? Like it feels

824
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 1: like secondhand exploitative, like when you're watching, especially as a

825
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: young girl, I don't know. It was very like, yeah,

826
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: why are we watching this specifically? Yeah? Yeah, because it's

827
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,879
Speaker 1: if it does feel like when you show something like that,

828
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 1: especially when you got squishy pubescent brain, you're like, oh,

829
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,800
Speaker 1: well they have to be showing that this for a reason.

830
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 1: And I think these girls are cool, so this is cool.

831
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 1: Like it's just like that baby lizard brain thing where

832
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,320
Speaker 1: you're just like, oh, this must be like I remember

833
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:41,399
Speaker 1: thinking like even though you know when you're twelve, you're

834
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,600
Speaker 1: like they're doing bad stuff. You want to do it

835
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: like like school. You want to do it more exciting

836
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: than what we're doing right now. Yeah. Well, even from

837
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 1: like a young actor's perspective, like being asked to do

838
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 1: a scene like that, I mean you're just like absolutely, yeah,

839
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: I can I feel grow, Yeah, I can do this,

840
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 1: like and it's all plate pretend and you don't realize

841
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: until later that even if that was true in the moments. Yeah,

842
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 1: the power dynamics you like had no grasp on. You

843
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,879
Speaker 1: didn't understand who was going to be watching, what they

844
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 1: were going to be getting out of it. Like all

845
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 1: of those things are very and that's on Catherine Hardwick

846
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 1: to take care of and like manage, and I just

847
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 1: I don't know. There's I'm glad everyone still stands by

848
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 1: the movie, but some Catherine Hardwick ship in here. I'm like,

849
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 1: you're you were very much an adult like it, and

850
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 1: and also this girl like you You've like helped raise

851
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 1: this young girl, Like why are you putting her in

852
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 1: this situation? And I mean whatever everyone's relationship is, but

853
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: like it's hard because I don't want to come off

854
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: as like super judge if they're all fine with it now,

855
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: but it's just like it's kind of a mind fuck. Um.

856
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,280
Speaker 1: I would not want a production like this to happen again,

857
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 1: That's for sure. That's what I know. And also Nicky

858
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,800
Speaker 1: Reid was saying in this Refinery twenty nine interview that

859
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 1: at the time, you know, when she was collaborating with

860
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 1: Katherine Hardwick on this script, that she was doing the

861
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 1: very thirteen year old thing that the characters in this

862
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 1: movie do, which is like overstate their level of experience.

863
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: So Nicki Reid was also saying she had done stuff

864
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:27,319
Speaker 1: that she hadn't actually done at that point in her

865
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 1: life and then had to simulate something she had actually

866
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 1: never done and was lying about to her like to

867
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: a trusted adult. Katherine Hardwick. It's just confussing, right, because

868
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: when you when you're that age, you think you're mentally

869
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 1: and emotionally more prepared for things than you usually are,

870
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 1: and then if you do go through with an experience,

871
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 1: you might not even fully realize how traumatic that was

872
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 1: until that Alma manifests later and which ironically, I think

873
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 1: this movie illustrates pretty well with its character. There is

874
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 1: a lot of irony in this film, so it's wild

875
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: that it's also doing the thing that it's like illustrating

876
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 1: pretty well. So anyways, um, listeners were also interested in

877
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 1: your perspective on this. It's it kind of broke my brain, um,

878
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 1: because I am always pro people telling their own stories,

879
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 1: but also like when you have, you know, a kid

880
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: telling their story, you just have to be really really

881
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: careful and you have to think of I feel like

882
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 1: it's on you as a director and a creative collaborator

883
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 1: to think of the kid telling their story in the

884
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,359
Speaker 1: moment and also think of their well being five ten

885
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 1: years down the line, because if you're thirteen years old,

886
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: you're not thinking past next week. It's like on you

887
00:55:55,120 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: as the adult collaborator to look out for a minor's

888
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 1: best interest, doy okay um any anything else we wanted

889
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 1: to talk about on on that end before we get

890
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: into the story. I guess the only oh, I guess

891
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 1: well before story. I don't know, you guys pick when

892
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 1: we talk about this, but I do want to talk

893
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: about the mom and the portrayal of her, because I

894
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,799
Speaker 1: was so confused about it as a kid, and even

895
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 1: when I rewatched it, I was, I don't know, confused

896
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:29,800
Speaker 1: the right. It kind of reflects Jamie where you're talking

897
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 1: about of like the some things I like, some things

898
00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 1: are confused. It feels very like I don't know all right.

899
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 1: Yeah for me, so I remember having a discussion like

900
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 1: this on the like Mrs Doubtfire episode where when we

901
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 1: were kids watching that movie, we all thought the Sally

902
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:53,360
Speaker 1: Field character was like such an overprotective, kind of overbearing,

903
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 1: mean shrew of a mother, and then watching it as

904
00:56:57,719 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 1: an adult, you're like, oh my god, no, I am

905
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: so on Sally Field's side, and like she was just

906
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: trying to be a responsible parent, and yeah, she might

907
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 1: seem like a kill joy, but she's just like trying

908
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:15,760
Speaker 1: to like from a kid's perspective, but we as adults realize,

909
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 1: you know, she's just trying to keep her kids safe,

910
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 1: right right. Seeing this movie as an adult looking at

911
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 1: the Holly Hunter, the mom character Melanie, I was very

912
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 1: sympathetic towards her and and thought that is she someone

913
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: with faults and is one of those major faults being

914
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:40,760
Speaker 1: that she kind of lets people walk all over her

915
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: and she's too accommodating for sure. Um, but like also

916
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: I relate because I can be that way sometimes. But like,

917
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: to me, as far as the portrayal her character and

918
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 1: like that mother daughter relationship, she felt to me like

919
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 1: just a very overly a common dating but extremely loving

920
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: and supportive and like doing her best. Did she maybe

921
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:11,439
Speaker 1: sometimes ignore some red flags? Perhaps? Um, you could chalk

922
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: that up to like, you know, not wanting to interfere

923
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:18,959
Speaker 1: too much, and like your kids like self exploration and

924
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: growth during this especially very kind of like pivotal confusing

925
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 1: scary time. Relationships like this, for the people who have

926
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 1: experienced them, can be just like so complicated and tricky.

927
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:35,000
Speaker 1: And I think this movie does a really good job

928
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 1: of of representing what felt like a very authentic dynamic

929
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: between Tracy and Melanie, and at least from where I'm

930
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: coming from and and and feel free to. You know,

931
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: everyone's going to have a different perspective on this. But

932
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 1: like the Melanie character to me, like I was just like,

933
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 1: she's like just doing the best she can. She's a

934
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 1: working class person. She's raising two kids as a single parent.

935
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: The co parent Tracy's in Mason's dad seems to be

936
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: like largely absent. This is like unrelated. But I'm also

937
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 1: like Catherine Hardwick wise, I'm just trying to put myself

938
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 1: in her head. I want to understand. But like that's

939
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 1: that's like her ex partner that she's like ripping to

940
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 1: sha putting through a human shredder with his kid. I'm like,

941
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:29,520
Speaker 1: that's just I mean, that's just a lot. Maybe, I mean,

942
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 1: maybe it's deserved, maybe it's undeserved. We don't know. Nikki

943
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 1: read later says it was not deserved. But anyways, sorry,

944
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 1: that was just thought I could have it. I was like,

945
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, she's really going for it. She's

946
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 1: really saying my ex is trash so um, which is

947
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: you know true more often than not. That I just

948
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 1: I just like, once I knew the production stuff, I

949
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 1: was like, wow, pretty wild choices were made. But sorry,

950
00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: continue I guess my point is to me, the relationship

951
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:08,160
Speaker 1: felt authentic and complicated, and obviously like that relationship is

952
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 1: very tense and Melanie is dealing with a handful. But

953
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: also I could see another perspective where Melanie is being

954
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 1: negligent as a parent and not interfering enough and being ignorant,

955
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 1: possibly willfully, possibly not. And I can see if you're

956
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 1: watching this movie as a youth, you would be like, Oh,

957
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:35,640
Speaker 1: the mom is such a drag. She's trying to control me,

958
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 1: She's invading my privacy, she's you know, doing this and that.

959
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 1: But I'm looking at it like, no, she's just trying

960
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: to make sure you don't get yourself killed. Tracy. I

961
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 1: don't know. That's my thought on it. Maggie, what was

962
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 1: your perspective on that when you were a kid versus now?

963
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 1: Because I because I definitely had like because I Caitlin,

964
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 1: I totally agree with you, and I also did not

965
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: see it that way when I was right. Yeah, I remember, um.

966
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 1: I mean, especially with that scene with the mom and

967
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 1: like Nikky on the bed where it starts to get like,

968
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know, it almost felt like, you know,

969
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 1: inappropriate a parent territory. UM. I think that really threw

970
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:27,960
Speaker 1: us off, because, yeah, it looked throughout most of the film,

971
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 1: she's depicted as this like archetypal um overbearing in a

972
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 1: way which I think a lot of us saw in

973
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 1: our own moms, and not in a bad way, you know.

974
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,120
Speaker 1: I think, like the way that she cares about her kids,

975
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 1: we very much you know, saw and identified with it,

976
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 1: and we were all like straightedge, so we weren't doing

977
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 1: any of this stuff. So it was kind of like, yeah,

978
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 1: our moms would be that mad if we had done

979
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 1: any of it. If a guy had wanted to make

980
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 1: out with us, I'm sure that right, this is how

981
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 1: what had gone down. But I that see did stick out,

982
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 1: and I like, I don't think any of us had

983
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 1: really had that much experience with like adults, you know,

984
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 1: treating us in that way or like seeing us in

985
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 1: that light or UM. I guess, you know, just speaking

986
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 1: for myself as very like naive, UM, and I guess

987
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 1: in a good way, like protected from that as a kid,

988
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:24,600
Speaker 1: you know, I had very good relationships with most of

989
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 1: the adults I knew. UM, so that I think rubbed

990
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 1: all of us in a really weird way. I think

991
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:33,200
Speaker 1: it was like maybe some of the first media that

992
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 1: we saw where you know, like a kid an adult

993
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 1: had a encroaching upon a inappropriate relationship that wasn't you know,

994
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 1: a clearly gross guy and you know a young girl

995
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:53,520
Speaker 1: who was like rebuffing him or like, you know, there's

996
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: a lot of media that I think does a good

997
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 1: job of speaking to you know, like young women's experience

998
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 1: of like older people kind of being two into their business.

999
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 1: But I think this was the first time we saw

1000
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:13,400
Speaker 1: one like a woman being involved um and that it

1001
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 1: was like a mom, you know, and we all knew

1002
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 1: each other's moms. We were all like very close small towns.

1003
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 1: I think it was in a weird way eye opening.

1004
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 1: Maybe not eye opening, but I think more more so

1005
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 1: than like the drugs and stuff, because that, you know,

1006
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 1: we kind of just assumed was happening, and like we

1007
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:37,120
Speaker 1: new kids older than us we're taking drugs and so

1008
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 1: I think that threw us less for a loop. But

1009
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 1: I think that was like relationship dynamics. I think all

1010
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 1: of us were like whoa, yeah, see, I have a

1011
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 1: complicated thought on that because so so there's also kind

1012
01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:59,919
Speaker 1: of a mother daughter relationship between e V and met

1013
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 1: Anie or like mother figure. Yeah, when when I was

1014
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 1: a kid, I thought that the relations I thought that,

1015
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 1: like I viewed e V as trying to basically like

1016
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:12,200
Speaker 1: single white female Tracy. I was so on Tracy side

1017
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 1: when I was a kid that I would get frustrated

1018
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 1: with Melanie, even though, like I don't know watching that

1019
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 1: character now, I feel like it's interesting that other mothers

1020
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 1: saw that movie and went after Nicky Reid's mother, because

1021
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 1: I thought Melanie is actually like written and especially portrayed

1022
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:32,959
Speaker 1: by Holly Hunter, really sympathetically um and like she has

1023
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 1: a lot of layers. But when I was a kid,

1024
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 1: I definitely was like Melanie, Melanie isn't like she's she's

1025
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 1: all over the place with Tracy. She like and I

1026
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 1: had like not a totally dissimilar relation, I mean, not

1027
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 1: identical at all, but like when a parent wants to

1028
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: be your friend but also needs to parent at the

1029
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,840
Speaker 1: same time, that's just like a difficult situation for both

1030
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 1: parties because at the beginning, it is clear that like

1031
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 1: Melanie wants to be a cool mom because she's a

1032
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 1: chronic people pleaser. We see that in every area of

1033
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 1: her life, and it doesn't and her daughter is a

1034
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 1: big part of it, where you know, it's like when

1035
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 1: that scene that really like hit for me with when

1036
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 1: Ever and Rachel Wood comes home and she's like someone

1037
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 1: made from of my socks. I'm not a kid anymore,

1038
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 1: and her mom takes her out shopping and it's like, okay,

1039
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 1: you're growing up, Like she's not doing the weird, like

1040
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:26,720
Speaker 1: I want you to be a little girl forever, and

1041
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 1: she wants to be the cool mom that takes her

1042
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:33,320
Speaker 1: daughter to get closed that she likes. And but then

1043
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:37,080
Speaker 1: later on, you know, you see Melanie's always trying to

1044
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:39,680
Speaker 1: kind of have it both ways, and it's not possible

1045
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 1: to have it both ways in a lot of situations.

1046
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:46,400
Speaker 1: And that comes up again with when she brings Evie

1047
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:51,120
Speaker 1: and Tracy to the store that they love to shoplift from,

1048
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 1: and you know, mel is like, wait, I need to

1049
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 1: call your guardian. But it is still like in a

1050
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: cool way though, and then she like has She's like, well,

1051
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 1: your guardian said that you can't be alone, but I'm

1052
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 1: cool and I'll get you pants and like, but as

1053
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:07,920
Speaker 1: a kid, I saw I saw Melon sort of was

1054
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 1: like why isn't she why can't she see what Tracy needs.

1055
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 1: Why is she letting this guy stay around? And like,

1056
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 1: I just didn't understand the adult next. I still think

1057
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 1: that Brady shouldn't be around those kids, and especially if

1058
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 1: she had whatever like that the promises that your parents

1059
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 1: make you and your kid are sacred. And the fact

1060
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 1: that she told her kids, Okay, he's not going to

1061
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:33,160
Speaker 1: be around anymore and then he was still around, that's

1062
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 1: a huge deal and like that is a failure of

1063
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:39,480
Speaker 1: parenting on her part. I thought then and still now,

1064
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 1: But now I can understand the Melanie like she It

1065
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:47,880
Speaker 1: sounds like she's been through the fucking Ringer and had

1066
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:50,040
Speaker 1: moments in her life where she really needed love and

1067
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:52,480
Speaker 1: support from some from other people, and she wants to

1068
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 1: be that person when people she loves is in trouble.

1069
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 1: But sometimes it's like you can't save everybody, and like

1070
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 1: it's just this whole I don't know, Yeah, my my,

1071
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 1: I've my opinion on her when I was twelve was

1072
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:10,920
Speaker 1: not super favorable. And now it's like I think that

1073
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:14,480
Speaker 1: she's like, Holly Hunter did an amazing job, and I

1074
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:18,520
Speaker 1: guess that she Holly Hunter like asked to be an

1075
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:21,400
Speaker 1: executive producer on the movie so she could help shape

1076
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 1: the character in a more sympathetic way. Um, so she's

1077
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:29,360
Speaker 1: the best. Yeah, And to go back to I think

1078
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 1: like the dynamic that you were talking about, Maggie, between

1079
01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:37,360
Speaker 1: Melanie and Evie were you talking about. So there's like

1080
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:42,440
Speaker 1: a scene where like Evie kisses Melanie on the blips.

1081
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:47,840
Speaker 1: So there's a few scenes similar. That was the most extreme,

1082
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 1: but there's examples throughout the movie of how I perceived

1083
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:59,320
Speaker 1: this was. Evie is an extremely manipulative person, right. She

1084
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 1: perceives that Melanie is very accommodating and is very much

1085
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:07,720
Speaker 1: a people pleaser, and knows that she's going to be

1086
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:12,520
Speaker 1: very easy to manipulate and exploit. So she does different

1087
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:15,040
Speaker 1: things where she like, for example, that scene where she

1088
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 1: kisses Melanie on the mouth, you can see how like

1089
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 1: taken aback and weird it out Melanie is by that.

1090
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:25,760
Speaker 1: And there's another scene where Evie confides in Melanie that

1091
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 1: she was abused by her guardian's boyfriend and and then

1092
01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 1: like you know, Melanie's like, oh my god. And then

1093
01:08:33,240 --> 01:08:35,800
Speaker 1: there's like kind of a weird hug that they share

1094
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:38,080
Speaker 1: that like Tracy walks into and she's like, what the

1095
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:40,720
Speaker 1: hell is going on here? And it's also I mean,

1096
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:44,160
Speaker 1: I watching that back now, I've I used to feel

1097
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:46,920
Speaker 1: more like I think because it was just like whatever,

1098
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 1: you're twelve and you have your own mommy problems. But

1099
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:53,439
Speaker 1: like I was, like, Evie is stealing Tracy's mom and like,

1100
01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:57,479
Speaker 1: and Mel isn't doing enough to like draw boundaries with her,

1101
01:08:57,560 --> 01:08:59,960
Speaker 1: and that has to be hurtful for Tracy because anytime

1102
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:03,760
Speaker 1: like your parents like is like I don't know, like

1103
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 1: you get jealous in this weird way when you're a

1104
01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:09,320
Speaker 1: kid and your parent is like paying attention to someone

1105
01:09:09,320 --> 01:09:12,760
Speaker 1: who isn't you or your sibling. Right, My mom ran

1106
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:15,800
Speaker 1: a daycare, so I was constantly like, but this is

1107
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 1: my mom and like, you know, like that that does

1108
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:23,080
Speaker 1: stick with you. But I thought, like what I what

1109
01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:27,600
Speaker 1: I didn't internalize is that Mel would have seen a

1110
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:30,760
Speaker 1: lot of herself in Evie and wanted to help her,

1111
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:34,360
Speaker 1: and like they do connect in that scene where Evie,

1112
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:37,840
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's it is tricky where it's

1113
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:41,519
Speaker 1: like there's kind of this question looming over Evie's character

1114
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 1: of like what is the truth and what isn't I

1115
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:46,559
Speaker 1: think it is heavily implied that she is not telling

1116
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 1: the truth about everything, or she's overstating a lot of

1117
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:53,120
Speaker 1: stuff and is willing to throw other people under the

1118
01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:56,760
Speaker 1: bus if she feels backed into a corner. But it

1119
01:09:56,800 --> 01:09:59,000
Speaker 1: seems like she knows exactly what to say to appeal

1120
01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:02,439
Speaker 1: to mel And you know, mel I was like, well,

1121
01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 1: I didn't have a mom around when I was growing

1122
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:07,840
Speaker 1: up either, So if you need a mother figure, I

1123
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 1: guess sure you can stay here like where, Like I

1124
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:16,520
Speaker 1: think you can see it as Evie being legitimately desperate

1125
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:19,840
Speaker 1: for a supportive mother figure. You can also see a

1126
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:24,400
Speaker 1: lot of those interactions as Evie manipulating Melanie to get

1127
01:10:24,439 --> 01:10:27,439
Speaker 1: what she wants and possibly lying about some stuff. It

1128
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:31,400
Speaker 1: could be both things, because Evy is clearly someone who

1129
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:35,320
Speaker 1: comes from the very rough background, and you know it,

1130
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:37,559
Speaker 1: is probably doing a lot of this stuff as like

1131
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:41,720
Speaker 1: a survival technique or some kind of coping mechanism. So like,

1132
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 1: obviously her behavior didn't happen in a vacuum, we don't

1133
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:48,320
Speaker 1: really know that much about her background because we also

1134
01:10:48,400 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 1: don't know what is the truth and what's not because

1135
01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:58,400
Speaker 1: we see her lie effortlessly, effortlessly, effortlessly constantly, so you

1136
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:01,280
Speaker 1: you don't really know what she's telling the truth about

1137
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:04,880
Speaker 1: and what she isn't, but we can assume that she,

1138
01:11:05,400 --> 01:11:10,519
Speaker 1: you know, had a pretty unstable upbringing and which informed

1139
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:14,040
Speaker 1: a lot of her behavior. So it's it's just so

1140
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:18,880
Speaker 1: complicated and the fact that like Melanie is like kind

1141
01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:22,640
Speaker 1: of and it's not her fault that she's easily manipulated,

1142
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:26,200
Speaker 1: but you also kind of have to like examine yourself,

1143
01:11:26,360 --> 01:11:29,200
Speaker 1: like you know, different things when you're a parent, in

1144
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:31,960
Speaker 1: in your kids safety is at stake here, So like

1145
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,120
Speaker 1: it's just so complicated, but this is all like such

1146
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 1: real stuff that a lot of people deal with, So

1147
01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 1: like it's she can be frustrating, but I think, like

1148
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:46,760
Speaker 1: watching it now, it's like she does come by all

1149
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:50,160
Speaker 1: of her problems honestly, and in the in the writing

1150
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:52,880
Speaker 1: of the movie, it's like that's not something that comes

1151
01:11:52,880 --> 01:11:55,799
Speaker 1: out of left field, that she would be very easily

1152
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:59,280
Speaker 1: manipulated by someone who is like, I don't have anyone

1153
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:01,120
Speaker 1: else in the world. Will you help me? Because that's

1154
01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:04,360
Speaker 1: how her relationship with her boyfriend works, And that's how

1155
01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:06,680
Speaker 1: her relationship with her friend works. Like people know if

1156
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 1: they show up at Mel's house and they're like, I

1157
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:12,519
Speaker 1: need a place to crash, I need a hot meal

1158
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:15,280
Speaker 1: I need something like if she can give it to them,

1159
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:18,559
Speaker 1: she will, which is like a really hard quality to

1160
01:12:18,600 --> 01:12:22,200
Speaker 1: dislike about someone, But I do. I think that it's

1161
01:12:22,439 --> 01:12:26,400
Speaker 1: kind of a rare example of seeing you know that

1162
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:29,639
Speaker 1: that kind of behavior, no matter how honestly you come

1163
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:32,160
Speaker 1: by it and how well intentioned it is, can hurt

1164
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:36,639
Speaker 1: other people, and it can result in like neglecting other stuff.

1165
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:38,840
Speaker 1: And I think, I mean, I do remember, like when

1166
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:41,200
Speaker 1: I first saw the movie, being like, how does she

1167
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:43,559
Speaker 1: have no idea what's going on? Her daughter is coming

1168
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 1: home all the time visibly fucked up and is rarely

1169
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 1: called out on it, and that is something that I

1170
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 1: still sort of felt on that. I feel like that,

1171
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:56,760
Speaker 1: like I don't even know if that's a criticism, it's

1172
01:12:56,760 --> 01:12:59,160
Speaker 1: just like something that is always stuck with me because

1173
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:01,280
Speaker 1: I know that that hopen and I know that, like,

1174
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:05,160
Speaker 1: you know, whatever, none of us are parents, and you know,

1175
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:07,439
Speaker 1: her kid is clearly in trouble and it seems like

1176
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:10,919
Speaker 1: she doesn't know what to do, so she's ignoring the problem,

1177
01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:16,679
Speaker 1: which definitely happens, but it's frustrating to watch. Or it's

1178
01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:20,320
Speaker 1: just like your kid needs you, mel I know. And

1179
01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:24,680
Speaker 1: then I think her being a recovering addict informs a

1180
01:13:24,720 --> 01:13:27,639
Speaker 1: lot of just sort of you know, like how how

1181
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 1: she is, how she parents, even like the non addressing things.

1182
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 1: It's probably an overcorrection of well, if I am really

1183
01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:38,479
Speaker 1: strict with her, she'll just go towards it more, you know,

1184
01:13:38,720 --> 01:13:42,559
Speaker 1: like as right, like a self, that's how I did it. So,

1185
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:46,800
Speaker 1: you know, I do like that. It's complicated though, because

1186
01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of these movies, especially ones

1187
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:52,000
Speaker 1: that are written from like a teenage perspective. You know,

1188
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:54,320
Speaker 1: she has said in retrospect that you know, things are

1189
01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:57,400
Speaker 1: exaggerated and stuff, which like, even as a thirteen year old,

1190
01:13:57,400 --> 01:13:59,760
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, this is a little know, like

1191
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:03,200
Speaker 1: melo dramatic if we're you know, gonna label at something.

1192
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:05,840
Speaker 1: But I do like that it's complicating because I think

1193
01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:09,160
Speaker 1: that is so much rarer and feels more real than

1194
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:13,080
Speaker 1: a lot of the other like go ask Alice like

1195
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:18,559
Speaker 1: that is so you know, like tunnel vision uncomplicated, don't

1196
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:22,760
Speaker 1: do drugs, um Whereas yeah, this you know, adds a

1197
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:27,120
Speaker 1: lot of human layers to the story of you know,

1198
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:31,639
Speaker 1: teenage girl rebelling for sure. Part of that too, something

1199
01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:35,080
Speaker 1: that I thought was handled in like an interesting and

1200
01:14:35,439 --> 01:14:40,759
Speaker 1: nuanced way was the way that media influences the teens,

1201
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:46,200
Speaker 1: where there's like often a lot of shots of like billboards, advertisements,

1202
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:49,559
Speaker 1: ones that are like are using sex to sell and

1203
01:14:49,600 --> 01:14:54,520
Speaker 1: like using Western beauty standard images to you know, influence

1204
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:57,120
Speaker 1: people to buy things and like convince people they need

1205
01:14:57,160 --> 01:14:59,680
Speaker 1: to look a certain way. And and you see, like

1206
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:03,879
Speaker 1: show to this and you see it's not necessarily uh,

1207
01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 1: it's it's more like, I guess implied that these things

1208
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:11,559
Speaker 1: are affecting the girls, but it's not a hard like

1209
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:14,360
Speaker 1: I like that, it's not super I mean, and there

1210
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:17,000
Speaker 1: are some points where it's literally like zoo men on

1211
01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:19,800
Speaker 1: Calvin Klein billboard, Like I felt I felt like they

1212
01:15:19,840 --> 01:15:21,240
Speaker 1: kind of bop you over the head with it a

1213
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:24,960
Speaker 1: little bit without them talking about it, which which did

1214
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:27,960
Speaker 1: feel authentic to me, because it's like you don't necessarily

1215
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:31,320
Speaker 1: realize that that's what's happening, but they're surrounded by it,

1216
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 1: especially like these these l a kids, Oh baby, like

1217
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:39,959
Speaker 1: you're super surrounded by it. And then like it's implied

1218
01:15:40,040 --> 01:15:44,439
Speaker 1: that Tracy kind of stops eating or is barely eating.

1219
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:47,320
Speaker 1: It seems like e V doesn't eat that much. She

1220
01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:50,400
Speaker 1: mentions like, you know, if you drink ten cups of

1221
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:52,800
Speaker 1: ice water a day, you'll burn three D calories. Like,

1222
01:15:53,040 --> 01:15:56,479
Speaker 1: it's clear that these girls are very concerned about the

1223
01:15:56,479 --> 01:16:00,599
Speaker 1: way they look, how skinny they are, and you know,

1224
01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:06,679
Speaker 1: there is a known correlation between media images and disordered eating,

1225
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:11,120
Speaker 1: especially in young people, young girls especially. I mean, like,

1226
01:16:11,479 --> 01:16:13,800
Speaker 1: I feel like early two thousands it was at its

1227
01:16:13,920 --> 01:16:17,240
Speaker 1: fucking peak. It's even seeing the low rise jeans culture

1228
01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:21,360
Speaker 1: of this movie is so triggering You're like, so, yeah,

1229
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:24,240
Speaker 1: I guess my My point is, like, I think this movie,

1230
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:27,640
Speaker 1: not super overtly or like at least not in dialogue,

1231
01:16:27,680 --> 01:16:32,880
Speaker 1: but more in just like images, explores how influential media is,

1232
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:38,320
Speaker 1: especially to teens who are so susceptible and you know,

1233
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:43,320
Speaker 1: easily influenced by the images they consume. And um, there's

1234
01:16:43,320 --> 01:16:46,360
Speaker 1: also a scene where Tracy is like about to go

1235
01:16:46,439 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 1: out with that guy Hobby, and e V is like,

1236
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:51,160
Speaker 1: you don't even know how to kiss, do you? And

1237
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:54,240
Speaker 1: Tracy is like, yeah, I do. Noel and I practice

1238
01:16:54,320 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 1: with cruel intentions fifty times, which I think the implication

1239
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:01,280
Speaker 1: is there that they kissed each other the way that

1240
01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:06,000
Speaker 1: Selma Blair and um, Sarah Michelle Gellar do in cruel intentions.

1241
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:10,360
Speaker 1: So it's like, yeah, media influencing, like a movie influencing

1242
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:13,960
Speaker 1: these girls, and like, I mean, I I do love it.

1243
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:17,160
Speaker 1: I like, I think it's so like and and the

1244
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:20,600
Speaker 1: way that I mean, I guess kind of transferring to

1245
01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 1: There was a scene that I mean, when I was

1246
01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:26,439
Speaker 1: watching it and I was a kid, I was like, Oh,

1247
01:17:26,479 --> 01:17:31,480
Speaker 1: they kiss wow, because and I thought that that scene,

1248
01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:34,960
Speaker 1: I mean, ethics wise, we could get into it with

1249
01:17:35,360 --> 01:17:37,680
Speaker 1: what that means for the actors. As far as the

1250
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:41,760
Speaker 1: characters go, I thought it was pretty well done. And

1251
01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:46,920
Speaker 1: it felt very like whenever when when you're thirteen, your

1252
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:51,720
Speaker 1: sexuality is very elusive. Um, I know that I was

1253
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:55,719
Speaker 1: definitely kiss kiss kissing my friends when I was thirteen.

1254
01:17:55,880 --> 01:17:58,680
Speaker 1: And the fact that they're framing it as practice and

1255
01:17:58,760 --> 01:18:00,800
Speaker 1: maybe it is and maybe it isn't. Like it just

1256
01:18:00,840 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 1: felt like a very authentic experience having two young actors

1257
01:18:06,400 --> 01:18:09,160
Speaker 1: to do that in a movie that opens up another door.

1258
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:14,040
Speaker 1: I will say that Evan rachel Wood, who came out

1259
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 1: as bisexual in sometime in the early UM later was

1260
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:21,000
Speaker 1: like I had the biggest crush on Nicky Reid and

1261
01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:23,519
Speaker 1: it was so embarrassing that my mom had to watch

1262
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:27,240
Speaker 1: me kiss my crush, and I couldn't tell anyone that, Like,

1263
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:29,880
Speaker 1: I mean in the early two thousands, I mean, the

1264
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:33,760
Speaker 1: discussion around bisexuality in the early two thousand's fucking forget it.

1265
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:37,920
Speaker 1: But I thought of that. I mean, we've seen so

1266
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:43,479
Speaker 1: much queer baby scenes that like don't work and that

1267
01:18:44,360 --> 01:18:47,479
Speaker 1: I don't know, that's not how I interpreted that scene.

1268
01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:52,240
Speaker 1: That felt very like authentic to experiences that um I

1269
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:54,720
Speaker 1: either had had or wanted to have at the time

1270
01:18:54,760 --> 01:18:57,559
Speaker 1: of watching this movie. I don't remember of all the

1271
01:18:57,640 --> 01:19:00,439
Speaker 1: things that happened in the movie, that was scene that

1272
01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:04,720
Speaker 1: felt like retrospectively important for me to see and that

1273
01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:07,719
Speaker 1: you know, I'm and I'm glad it was like treated

1274
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:11,160
Speaker 1: in that way. Um yeah, there was still some like

1275
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:15,600
Speaker 1: you know, like teenage of that era, like I don't know,

1276
01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:18,479
Speaker 1: just sort of attitude toward it, because like Tracy says

1277
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:20,519
Speaker 1: something like, oh, you want me to prove it to you?

1278
01:19:20,520 --> 01:19:24,880
Speaker 1: You like lesbo, right, I mean, but also like that's

1279
01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:28,840
Speaker 1: defensive kids ship like exactly. Yeah, just another thing that like,

1280
01:19:28,960 --> 01:19:33,320
Speaker 1: you know, problematic kids saying problematic things because kids are

1281
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:37,960
Speaker 1: you know, can be problematic. Kids are problematic, You're still problematic.

1282
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:41,120
Speaker 1: I was, I would argue like that like a kids

1283
01:19:41,120 --> 01:19:46,160
Speaker 1: saying that in defensively in two thousand three, I probably

1284
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:48,840
Speaker 1: would have done that if I was, because there was

1285
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:51,880
Speaker 1: no discussion around bisexuality at that time. So you're like,

1286
01:19:52,400 --> 01:19:55,479
Speaker 1: I don't know, like when am I? What's wrong with me?

1287
01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:59,000
Speaker 1: Like I felt weird about myself all the time? You know,

1288
01:19:59,160 --> 01:20:04,040
Speaker 1: it felt it's very authentic. Yeah, for sure. Um, speaking

1289
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:08,400
Speaker 1: of kissing, here's a I'd love to start every sentence

1290
01:20:08,479 --> 01:20:14,400
Speaker 1: that way. Always something that I took big issue with.

1291
01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:18,080
Speaker 1: But I'm also interested to hear different people's perspectives on

1292
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:21,639
Speaker 1: this listener's perspectives. But it felt to me so obviously

1293
01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:24,960
Speaker 1: this movie centers whiteness in a pretty big way, as

1294
01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:27,479
Speaker 1: as many coming of age stories do, and it felt

1295
01:20:27,520 --> 01:20:30,120
Speaker 1: to me so you there are a number of characters

1296
01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:33,599
Speaker 1: of color, teens of color, and we learn a few

1297
01:20:33,600 --> 01:20:36,559
Speaker 1: of their names. One is Hobby, one is KK. There's

1298
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:39,080
Speaker 1: another guy named Reuben. I don't know who Reuben is,

1299
01:20:39,120 --> 01:20:41,000
Speaker 1: but his name gets mentioned. It seems like he's like

1300
01:20:41,080 --> 01:20:45,960
Speaker 1: kind of dating Evie. Anyway, it felt to me as though,

1301
01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:51,120
Speaker 1: because so much of this movie is like look at

1302
01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:56,679
Speaker 1: the risky dangerous, wild things these girls are getting into

1303
01:20:57,200 --> 01:21:00,640
Speaker 1: that black teens are being used by the movie to

1304
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:06,160
Speaker 1: imply that, like kissing a black kid is yet another

1305
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:09,439
Speaker 1: dangerous thing that they're doing, and it wouldn't be as

1306
01:21:09,439 --> 01:21:11,760
Speaker 1: wild if they were kissing white boys, but because they're

1307
01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:14,720
Speaker 1: kissing black boys. Yeah, it felt like very coded. And

1308
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:17,200
Speaker 1: that was one of the things where it was like,

1309
01:21:17,920 --> 01:21:21,000
Speaker 1: not oddly shallowy something since movie our shallow. That felt

1310
01:21:21,320 --> 01:21:27,120
Speaker 1: like a very shallowy, like surface level decision that had

1311
01:21:27,240 --> 01:21:31,520
Speaker 1: no you know, like especially because we don't learn anything

1312
01:21:31,520 --> 01:21:35,040
Speaker 1: else about those characters except that, like one of them

1313
01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:37,599
Speaker 1: likes to beat box, Like we don't know anything about them.

1314
01:21:38,040 --> 01:21:40,599
Speaker 1: I think I think it's bad writing. And if it

1315
01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:45,439
Speaker 1: wasn't intended that way, then you need to give characters context. Exactly,

1316
01:21:45,760 --> 01:21:50,000
Speaker 1: a black teenager's experience exists in a void, whereas like

1317
01:21:50,120 --> 01:21:53,960
Speaker 1: Tracy's life is extremely complicated, which it is, but it's

1318
01:21:54,040 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 1: like we need to extend that to everybody. Katherine Hardwick, right, Yes,

1319
01:21:59,760 --> 01:22:01,920
Speaker 1: like they could have added you know, there's no reason

1320
01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:04,000
Speaker 1: not to, Like why don't we know those kids, Why

1321
01:22:04,040 --> 01:22:06,600
Speaker 1: didn't why didn't we get introduced to them at the

1322
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:11,479
Speaker 1: beginning of the movie you know, like why aren't they characters? Right, Yeah,

1323
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:15,439
Speaker 1: they're just not given characters at all. And there's a

1324
01:22:15,479 --> 01:22:17,400
Speaker 1: lot of I felt like, I mean, and this is

1325
01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:19,960
Speaker 1: kind of like a renteres thrown and by the fact

1326
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:23,080
Speaker 1: that this is like Nicky Reid talking about her own experience,

1327
01:22:23,120 --> 01:22:26,800
Speaker 1: but even the idea of like casting a like blonde,

1328
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:31,960
Speaker 1: pale white girl as like being corrupted by a young

1329
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:34,720
Speaker 1: girl with just darker features than her. It's just like

1330
01:22:34,760 --> 01:22:37,360
Speaker 1: it's so like in terms of the parts of this

1331
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:40,360
Speaker 1: movie that doesn't work. It's all very over the top,

1332
01:22:41,040 --> 01:22:46,599
Speaker 1: not challenging anything in terms of like who this movie

1333
01:22:46,680 --> 01:22:51,920
Speaker 1: considers as worthy of context and empathy and too isn't

1334
01:22:53,520 --> 01:22:56,400
Speaker 1: And then like the only thing this movie does to

1335
01:22:56,520 --> 01:23:01,080
Speaker 1: attempt to comment on race at all is Tracy says

1336
01:23:01,160 --> 01:23:04,240
Speaker 1: something like if everyone married someone from a different race,

1337
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:07,080
Speaker 1: then in one generation there would be no prejudice, which

1338
01:23:07,120 --> 01:23:10,120
Speaker 1: is such a naive way to the most white girls.

1339
01:23:10,120 --> 01:23:15,599
Speaker 1: Should I ever, that's like it um, it made me cringe.

1340
01:23:15,600 --> 01:23:18,880
Speaker 1: It made me uncomfortable, And then we cut to the

1341
01:23:18,920 --> 01:23:22,720
Speaker 1: next scene, right right, yeah, I I also felt like

1342
01:23:23,479 --> 01:23:25,680
Speaker 1: it's not I mean, and we've touched on this on

1343
01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:28,200
Speaker 1: the show before, where it like it's not enough to

1344
01:23:28,920 --> 01:23:32,280
Speaker 1: cast inclusively, like you need to like there needs to

1345
01:23:32,320 --> 01:23:36,760
Speaker 1: be care and thought given to characters of all races.

1346
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:41,639
Speaker 1: Like it. It sounds so goofy simple, but it doesn't

1347
01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:45,240
Speaker 1: do it. It feels like white people not knowing how

1348
01:23:45,439 --> 01:23:48,880
Speaker 1: to write black characters. It felt like a boomer white

1349
01:23:48,960 --> 01:23:53,639
Speaker 1: lady made the movie exactly exactly because this movie does

1350
01:23:53,680 --> 01:23:56,200
Speaker 1: subvert a fair amount of things. But yeah, in terms

1351
01:23:56,320 --> 01:24:00,840
Speaker 1: of like challenging what characters are are given and which

1352
01:24:00,880 --> 01:24:04,439
Speaker 1: are not, that we barely learned character's names. I think

1353
01:24:04,479 --> 01:24:06,840
Speaker 1: we learned the names of the boys that they hook

1354
01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:09,960
Speaker 1: up with, but they don't exist outside of that context.

1355
01:24:11,040 --> 01:24:14,240
Speaker 1: So versions I did like, I liked Um, he wasn't

1356
01:24:14,280 --> 01:24:16,160
Speaker 1: in the movie a lot. But I did like the

1357
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:20,320
Speaker 1: brother character. I thought that that was pretty well done.

1358
01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:26,160
Speaker 1: Of like, he's a pubescent boy and therefore sucks, but

1359
01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:28,840
Speaker 1: also like does care a lot about his sister and

1360
01:24:29,080 --> 01:24:33,519
Speaker 1: is visibly frustrated with his mom and his sister for

1361
01:24:33,560 --> 01:24:35,479
Speaker 1: reasons that make a lot of sense. But also he's

1362
01:24:35,520 --> 01:24:37,400
Speaker 1: a kid and there's not really a lot he can do,

1363
01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:41,479
Speaker 1: And I thought that character was well written. What do

1364
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:49,360
Speaker 1: we think of Brady opening the flow? Brady. I was like,

1365
01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:52,000
Speaker 1: it was seemed to see is he the role model

1366
01:24:52,040 --> 01:24:57,120
Speaker 1: of the century. No, but he's also someone struggling with addiction.

1367
01:24:57,320 --> 01:25:02,120
Speaker 1: He mentions like wanting to relapse because in like kind

1368
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:05,920
Speaker 1: of being triggered by the environment in this household is

1369
01:25:05,960 --> 01:25:09,080
Speaker 1: sort of like kind of dangerous for him and to tempting,

1370
01:25:09,200 --> 01:25:12,600
Speaker 1: so he leaves. But then you also see him like

1371
01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:16,160
Speaker 1: be someone who does seem to care about these kids

1372
01:25:16,200 --> 01:25:19,960
Speaker 1: and who wants to be as present as possible. You know,

1373
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:23,040
Speaker 1: it's just like a person going through a lot, trying

1374
01:25:23,120 --> 01:25:26,080
Speaker 1: their best. Again, Um, I think that I think that

1375
01:25:26,120 --> 01:25:29,559
Speaker 1: addiction is given more empathy in this movie than we

1376
01:25:29,680 --> 01:25:33,240
Speaker 1: usually see in media. But I don't know. I just

1377
01:25:33,360 --> 01:25:37,080
Speaker 1: I didn't honestly pay him that much thought. So I

1378
01:25:37,160 --> 01:25:40,320
Speaker 1: was watching, I don't know. I was trying to figure

1379
01:25:40,320 --> 01:25:43,160
Speaker 1: it because I guess my main thing and again I'm

1380
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:47,760
Speaker 1: bringing my youth baggage to this as well, was like,

1381
01:25:47,920 --> 01:25:51,360
Speaker 1: did did he know that Melanie had promised to her

1382
01:25:51,439 --> 01:25:53,559
Speaker 1: kids that he wouldn't be around? Because if so, I

1383
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:56,800
Speaker 1: feel like he shouldn't be around and it's disrespectful to

1384
01:25:56,840 --> 01:25:59,200
Speaker 1: the family to be around. If he was aware that

1385
01:25:59,560 --> 01:26:02,240
Speaker 1: the chill did not want him there and that it

1386
01:26:02,280 --> 01:26:05,280
Speaker 1: had been said he wouldn't be there. That was something

1387
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:08,080
Speaker 1: that like pained for me when I was twelve for

1388
01:26:08,280 --> 01:26:13,280
Speaker 1: personal reasons also, Um, but I do agree that it's

1389
01:26:13,320 --> 01:26:18,559
Speaker 1: like he does care about the family and like he does.

1390
01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:21,840
Speaker 1: I I thought, like that moment where mel is just

1391
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:23,600
Speaker 1: at the end of her rope and she's tearing up

1392
01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:26,360
Speaker 1: the shitty floor and like she's just like had it.

1393
01:26:26,840 --> 01:26:30,040
Speaker 1: He shows up for her in that moment and like

1394
01:26:30,960 --> 01:26:34,439
Speaker 1: everyone's doing the best they can. And yeah, I agree,

1395
01:26:34,479 --> 01:26:37,439
Speaker 1: I I yeah, I remember really not liking that character

1396
01:26:37,680 --> 01:26:39,760
Speaker 1: when I was a kid and I was like, why

1397
01:26:39,840 --> 01:26:42,400
Speaker 1: is he here? He shouldn't be here. But then as

1398
01:26:42,400 --> 01:26:45,120
Speaker 1: an adult, so I'm like, there's more, there's more nuance

1399
01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:47,720
Speaker 1: that exists in the world than I realized when I

1400
01:26:47,800 --> 01:26:52,320
Speaker 1: was twelve. Go figure, Yeah, we had someone, um you

1401
01:26:52,360 --> 01:26:54,120
Speaker 1: know close to her family and I'd be over that

1402
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:56,120
Speaker 1: all the time and they would have you know, a

1403
01:26:56,120 --> 01:27:00,640
Speaker 1: Brady who change, you know who change, and you know,

1404
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:04,280
Speaker 1: a Brady for every season. Um. Yeah, So it was

1405
01:27:04,320 --> 01:27:09,240
Speaker 1: something that was like recognizable. Um yeah, and especially like

1406
01:27:09,439 --> 01:27:12,200
Speaker 1: in the moments where he is there for her, you know,

1407
01:27:12,240 --> 01:27:14,759
Speaker 1: and you can you know when you're around that you'll

1408
01:27:14,800 --> 01:27:17,320
Speaker 1: see that peek through every once in a while, like

1409
01:27:17,320 --> 01:27:22,200
Speaker 1: like a genuine, like caring moment or just like something

1410
01:27:22,280 --> 01:27:25,120
Speaker 1: that you know makes it seem like it is making

1411
01:27:25,120 --> 01:27:30,400
Speaker 1: the mom's life or you know, something for them. Yeah,

1412
01:27:30,520 --> 01:27:32,439
Speaker 1: I agree. Yeah, I think that Like when I was

1413
01:27:32,520 --> 01:27:36,519
Speaker 1: a kid, I viewed him as being very selfish, but

1414
01:27:36,560 --> 01:27:39,200
Speaker 1: then like watching it as an adult, I was watching

1415
01:27:39,200 --> 01:27:41,400
Speaker 1: it from Tracy's perspective as a kid, and I was like,

1416
01:27:41,439 --> 01:27:46,439
Speaker 1: she isn't like he must yeah, which like he did,

1417
01:27:46,640 --> 01:27:49,640
Speaker 1: like did enough for them to be like, he's not

1418
01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:53,040
Speaker 1: coming back, right, But I thought it was interesting. Yeah.

1419
01:27:53,120 --> 01:27:55,120
Speaker 1: I thought that this movie, of the things that we

1420
01:27:55,360 --> 01:28:01,080
Speaker 1: are critical of and right so um, addiction was something

1421
01:28:01,120 --> 01:28:04,360
Speaker 1: that was handled I think with a fair amount of nuance.

1422
01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:07,679
Speaker 1: Um my last big thing, and we mentioned this already,

1423
01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:09,080
Speaker 1: but I just want to hit on it again because

1424
01:28:09,080 --> 01:28:12,479
Speaker 1: I really don't like this. When it appears in movies

1425
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:16,280
Speaker 1: is when it's inevitable that young people are going to

1426
01:28:16,360 --> 01:28:18,559
Speaker 1: find a movie don't show them how to self harm

1427
01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:23,280
Speaker 1: on screen. That is so fucked up. It's one of

1428
01:28:23,280 --> 01:28:28,400
Speaker 1: my least favorite coming of age movie choices. Um, any

1429
01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:31,600
Speaker 1: sort of self harm if there is a chance that

1430
01:28:31,720 --> 01:28:35,320
Speaker 1: a kid is going to see it, imply you don't

1431
01:28:35,320 --> 01:28:38,640
Speaker 1: need to show and an adult audience will know what

1432
01:28:38,760 --> 01:28:43,280
Speaker 1: you're fucking talking about. I really hate that they showed that.

1433
01:28:43,600 --> 01:28:45,960
Speaker 1: I don't like that Evan Rachel would even had to

1434
01:28:46,000 --> 01:28:48,479
Speaker 1: act it out. You know, you can even show like

1435
01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:51,720
Speaker 1: whatever scars in my My opinion is like you can

1436
01:28:51,760 --> 01:28:55,360
Speaker 1: show that people will get it. It will be very upsetting,

1437
01:28:55,520 --> 01:28:58,360
Speaker 1: and it won't show kids how to self harm. Yeah,

1438
01:29:00,280 --> 01:29:05,160
Speaker 1: so some irresponsible choices were made in conclusion, yes, but

1439
01:29:05,240 --> 01:29:10,120
Speaker 1: it's also a movie that you know, feels very authentic

1440
01:29:10,200 --> 01:29:16,360
Speaker 1: and many other regards. So this, I mean, this is

1441
01:29:17,280 --> 01:29:20,599
Speaker 1: talk about a mixed bag of a movie. Talk about

1442
01:29:20,760 --> 01:29:24,960
Speaker 1: the next bag um. Yeah, I'm very curious of what

1443
01:29:25,000 --> 01:29:27,200
Speaker 1: our listeners experience with this movie is. I feel like

1444
01:29:27,240 --> 01:29:32,400
Speaker 1: there's a wide spectrum of people's opinions and experiences with it.

1445
01:29:32,479 --> 01:29:34,200
Speaker 1: I know that there's a lot of young people that

1446
01:29:34,240 --> 01:29:36,519
Speaker 1: really glommed onto it as a kid and felt seen

1447
01:29:36,800 --> 01:29:40,360
Speaker 1: because there's not a lot of movies about young girls

1448
01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:46,000
Speaker 1: growing up in unstable households that show a lot of

1449
01:29:46,040 --> 01:29:49,200
Speaker 1: sides to a lot of people, Like I understand why

1450
01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:52,400
Speaker 1: a lot of people felt seen by this movie, and

1451
01:29:52,439 --> 01:29:55,360
Speaker 1: then there's also whatever we've had. We've been talking about

1452
01:29:55,360 --> 01:29:58,080
Speaker 1: it for two hours. There's a lot of ship going on.

1453
01:29:58,600 --> 01:30:02,200
Speaker 1: I'm also curious, listeners if you have an answer for

1454
01:30:02,240 --> 01:30:07,559
Speaker 1: this of like more modern or maybe you know, less

1455
01:30:07,680 --> 01:30:12,640
Speaker 1: ethically ambiguous but within the same style, or like you know,

1456
01:30:12,960 --> 01:30:16,800
Speaker 1: more modern depictions of this and that makes sense, or

1457
01:30:16,840 --> 01:30:19,759
Speaker 1: like what did what did thirteen open the doors for?

1458
01:30:20,040 --> 01:30:23,759
Speaker 1: You know? I feel like Euphoria is like gen Z's

1459
01:30:24,600 --> 01:30:29,519
Speaker 1: kind of version of this, which also makes some questionable choices. Well,

1460
01:30:29,560 --> 01:30:31,479
Speaker 1: I would saying, and I think they're worse off for it,

1461
01:30:31,520 --> 01:30:36,200
Speaker 1: because I don't like that Euphoria is famously written by

1462
01:30:36,280 --> 01:30:40,120
Speaker 1: an adult man and like you don't have a nikky

1463
01:30:40,120 --> 01:30:43,320
Speaker 1: read in the mix with Euphoria, which is I think

1464
01:30:43,439 --> 01:30:46,680
Speaker 1: like for the ethical fucking black hole it opens up.

1465
01:30:47,400 --> 01:30:50,559
Speaker 1: I think what makes thirteen really unique is that a

1466
01:30:50,640 --> 01:30:54,400
Speaker 1: kid's voice was heavily prioritized, and I think that that

1467
01:30:54,560 --> 01:30:58,240
Speaker 1: is like part of what makes it special versus versus

1468
01:30:58,240 --> 01:31:00,839
Speaker 1: a euphoria where it's an adult guesting their way around

1469
01:31:00,960 --> 01:31:05,679
Speaker 1: youth experience. Right at the same criticism about eighth grade,

1470
01:31:05,720 --> 01:31:09,880
Speaker 1: but no one wanted to hear that. People they were

1471
01:31:09,880 --> 01:31:13,160
Speaker 1: already We're already into the people are never ready. I

1472
01:31:13,200 --> 01:31:17,200
Speaker 1: really love that movie, but it's like yeah, anyways, yeah right. Um,

1473
01:31:17,200 --> 01:31:23,280
Speaker 1: does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie? Thirteen? No, No,

1474
01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:27,599
Speaker 1: I think we covered it. It definitely passes. The fact

1475
01:31:27,920 --> 01:31:30,439
Speaker 1: has no doubt about it. Most of the movie I

1476
01:31:30,479 --> 01:31:34,240
Speaker 1: mean not that I mean talking about kissing boys and

1477
01:31:34,280 --> 01:31:39,040
Speaker 1: talking about difficult relationships with father, brother and Brady comes up,

1478
01:31:39,200 --> 01:31:42,080
Speaker 1: but like a large portion of the movie is women

1479
01:31:42,120 --> 01:31:46,920
Speaker 1: talking to each other and coming of age and all

1480
01:31:46,960 --> 01:31:50,880
Speaker 1: that stuff. Also like an example of mommy issues, which

1481
01:31:50,960 --> 01:31:56,599
Speaker 1: I think is becoming more popular. I mean Tangled, you know, great,

1482
01:31:56,880 --> 01:32:00,320
Speaker 1: great mommy, big week for mommy issues on the factal

1483
01:32:00,360 --> 01:32:04,640
Speaker 1: cast honestly, but yeah, I I agree. I think that

1484
01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:07,759
Speaker 1: the more glaring issue is it's all uh white women

1485
01:32:07,800 --> 01:32:14,120
Speaker 1: talking to each other for the movie. Yeah yeah, yes, Um.

1486
01:32:14,720 --> 01:32:17,439
Speaker 1: So that brings us to our nipple scales zero to

1487
01:32:17,600 --> 01:32:21,920
Speaker 1: five nipples based on examining the movie through an intersectional

1488
01:32:21,960 --> 01:32:28,800
Speaker 1: feminist lens um tricky one. Well. Also, this movie is

1489
01:32:28,840 --> 01:32:32,480
Speaker 1: like kind of a biopic basically, which like are always

1490
01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:36,559
Speaker 1: tricky to rate on the nipple skille because it's like,

1491
01:32:36,600 --> 01:32:40,200
Speaker 1: this is about a real person's experience, but also it

1492
01:32:40,320 --> 01:32:42,960
Speaker 1: is fictionalized because Ev is not a real person. That

1493
01:32:43,080 --> 01:32:44,439
Speaker 1: all that was the laws I wanted to say. I

1494
01:32:44,439 --> 01:32:48,280
Speaker 1: thought that the character that was developed the least well

1495
01:32:48,520 --> 01:32:50,920
Speaker 1: was Ev, which makes sense because that's literally the only

1496
01:32:51,000 --> 01:32:55,519
Speaker 1: character that's not based on a person in Nikki Reid's life. Yeah,

1497
01:32:55,640 --> 01:32:59,240
Speaker 1: or writing criticism, right, I read something that, like, so

1498
01:32:59,360 --> 01:33:02,160
Speaker 1: Nikki read when she was like twelve or thirteen, her

1499
01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:06,240
Speaker 1: friend got arrested for selling acid, and like that's kind

1500
01:33:06,280 --> 01:33:10,880
Speaker 1: of who e. V Is based on, but like not fully,

1501
01:33:10,920 --> 01:33:12,880
Speaker 1: it's just sort of like that experience of like a

1502
01:33:12,920 --> 01:33:15,960
Speaker 1: teen kid getting arrested for selling acid. Let's sort of

1503
01:33:16,080 --> 01:33:19,920
Speaker 1: map a character onto that experience. And that's like, how

1504
01:33:21,120 --> 01:33:24,880
Speaker 1: more more like general than because it's like Tracy is

1505
01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:29,400
Speaker 1: so specific and it's so like demonstrably Nikki Reid where

1506
01:33:29,400 --> 01:33:32,519
Speaker 1: it's like Ev. I mean, part of the movie is

1507
01:33:32,520 --> 01:33:34,400
Speaker 1: like you're supposed to be guessing around what is true

1508
01:33:34,400 --> 01:33:37,160
Speaker 1: about her life and what isn't um, which I feel

1509
01:33:37,160 --> 01:33:41,200
Speaker 1: like honestly I would have I would rather have done

1510
01:33:41,240 --> 01:33:43,599
Speaker 1: away with that and let us, like, I think it's

1511
01:33:43,600 --> 01:33:46,000
Speaker 1: more impactful if we do know what her life experiences

1512
01:33:46,120 --> 01:33:48,080
Speaker 1: versus because I feel like that takes her into like

1513
01:33:48,479 --> 01:33:52,000
Speaker 1: this villain territory, or that's how I interpreted it at

1514
01:33:52,040 --> 01:33:56,640
Speaker 1: the time. Unreliable narrator, Yes, right, when it's like that

1515
01:33:56,720 --> 01:34:00,160
Speaker 1: character deserves empathy, but we but in order to really

1516
01:34:00,200 --> 01:34:02,920
Speaker 1: ampathize with her, we would need to know who she has,

1517
01:34:03,080 --> 01:34:09,479
Speaker 1: more things about her, right. So, oh gosh, it's so,

1518
01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:13,479
Speaker 1: as we have discussed, there are you know, kind of

1519
01:34:13,520 --> 01:34:17,200
Speaker 1: like behind the scenes things that you can call into

1520
01:34:17,320 --> 01:34:20,799
Speaker 1: question as far as the ethics of, you know, making

1521
01:34:20,880 --> 01:34:27,960
Speaker 1: teen actors do sexually explicit things on camera. It was

1522
01:34:28,640 --> 01:34:32,120
Speaker 1: handled probably as responsibly as possible if you're going to

1523
01:34:32,160 --> 01:34:34,839
Speaker 1: make the choice to do that, but you could say,

1524
01:34:34,880 --> 01:34:37,920
Speaker 1: maybe don't make that choice at all, because it's unethical

1525
01:34:37,960 --> 01:34:41,559
Speaker 1: to make the choice at all. Um. So there's that.

1526
01:34:41,600 --> 01:34:45,720
Speaker 1: There's the way again blackness is treated and used to

1527
01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:51,479
Speaker 1: suggest to suggest danger. Yeah, danger, which is such a

1528
01:34:51,560 --> 01:34:55,440
Speaker 1: fucking harmful thing to do because of like white America's

1529
01:34:55,479 --> 01:35:01,160
Speaker 1: perception of blackness is and black youth especially is often

1530
01:35:01,240 --> 01:35:04,679
Speaker 1: correlated with danger, and it's so harmful and so sinister,

1531
01:35:05,240 --> 01:35:08,760
Speaker 1: and that the movie makes suggestions at that is really

1532
01:35:08,760 --> 01:35:12,120
Speaker 1: fucked up. Um. But then like on the other hand,

1533
01:35:12,280 --> 01:35:16,000
Speaker 1: this is like a story about a teenager's experience told

1534
01:35:16,040 --> 01:35:22,440
Speaker 1: from the perspective, literally co writing the script of a teenager.

1535
01:35:23,040 --> 01:35:28,000
Speaker 1: Some things were clearly exaggerated for like cinematic effect. I

1536
01:35:28,040 --> 01:35:30,200
Speaker 1: don't know, it's it's tricky, it's a it's a mixed bag.

1537
01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:34,320
Speaker 1: As we've said, I would give this movie. I don't know.

1538
01:35:34,439 --> 01:35:38,960
Speaker 1: The things that it handles irresponsibly, like really are upsetting

1539
01:35:39,640 --> 01:35:42,360
Speaker 1: enough to maybe even knock it down to like I'm

1540
01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:44,640
Speaker 1: thinking somewhere between like a two and a three, and

1541
01:35:44,680 --> 01:35:47,439
Speaker 1: maybe it's just like a two point five kind of thing.

1542
01:35:48,280 --> 01:35:51,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, not the nipple scale, what does it

1543
01:35:51,160 --> 01:35:57,920
Speaker 1: even mean. It's also a flawed metric. It's perfect. I

1544
01:35:57,960 --> 01:36:00,360
Speaker 1: think I'm gonna I'm gonna go three, But I might

1545
01:36:00,400 --> 01:36:03,760
Speaker 1: be leaning a little bit on nostalgia there. Um. And

1546
01:36:03,800 --> 01:36:07,360
Speaker 1: also I think that my opinion would be heavily swayed

1547
01:36:07,520 --> 01:36:13,759
Speaker 1: by how the actors feel about it now. And sure

1548
01:36:14,240 --> 01:36:17,599
Speaker 1: that's my justification for going with three. I also just

1549
01:36:17,640 --> 01:36:20,360
Speaker 1: have like a bizarre attachment to this movie. Um, it

1550
01:36:20,360 --> 01:36:26,200
Speaker 1: feels like a very micro generational movie. Um. But because

1551
01:36:26,800 --> 01:36:30,800
Speaker 1: Nikki Reid, I mean, I really feel terribly that it

1552
01:36:30,880 --> 01:36:32,920
Speaker 1: had a negative effect on Nicki Reid's life, she was

1553
01:36:32,960 --> 01:36:35,880
Speaker 1: a kid. How would you possibly fucking know what would happen?

1554
01:36:36,080 --> 01:36:40,920
Speaker 1: And but listening to that interview that they did, reflecting

1555
01:36:40,960 --> 01:36:43,920
Speaker 1: on this time and knowing that everyone feels okay about

1556
01:36:43,920 --> 01:36:47,519
Speaker 1: it and that they don't regret having made it, I

1557
01:36:47,520 --> 01:36:51,519
Speaker 1: feel a little more lenient on that point. However, do

1558
01:36:51,560 --> 01:36:56,480
Speaker 1: I think movies should be made this way? No? No,

1559
01:36:56,840 --> 01:37:00,280
Speaker 1: this is like strictly viewing it in retrospect, like would

1560
01:37:00,280 --> 01:37:03,360
Speaker 1: not advocate for this style of filmmaking. I think it's

1561
01:37:03,400 --> 01:37:09,240
Speaker 1: potentially could have really really been horrible, and it's very

1562
01:37:09,280 --> 01:37:11,840
Speaker 1: lucky that it wasn't. And I'm glad all the precautions

1563
01:37:11,840 --> 01:37:15,519
Speaker 1: that were taken we were taken, but also even that

1564
01:37:15,560 --> 01:37:19,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't have guaranteed, Like even though every precaution was taken,

1565
01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:22,960
Speaker 1: they still had a negative effect on the child's life

1566
01:37:22,960 --> 01:37:28,599
Speaker 1: who was telling her story, Maggie, how about you? Yeah?

1567
01:37:28,760 --> 01:37:30,960
Speaker 1: I think I think I'm also going to go with

1568
01:37:31,000 --> 01:37:35,559
Speaker 1: the three for similar reasons, and that it feels almost

1569
01:37:35,600 --> 01:37:38,840
Speaker 1: like a relic of this very specific time, and it

1570
01:37:38,880 --> 01:37:43,360
Speaker 1: feels like it captured some things, especially like the things

1571
01:37:43,400 --> 01:37:48,120
Speaker 1: are insinuated, like the diet culture, the this the that

1572
01:37:48,479 --> 01:37:50,680
Speaker 1: um I think the other reason I'm going to get

1573
01:37:50,720 --> 01:37:54,800
Speaker 1: into three is purely the aesthetic of it, because I

1574
01:37:54,840 --> 01:37:59,280
Speaker 1: feel like that like defined the aesthetic for a long

1575
01:37:59,360 --> 01:38:04,120
Speaker 1: time of both like low budget films, uh and things

1576
01:38:04,720 --> 01:38:08,280
Speaker 1: that wanted to be critical. Darling's kind of took on

1577
01:38:08,400 --> 01:38:15,960
Speaker 1: this leg crungy blue color for so long, um that

1578
01:38:16,080 --> 01:38:20,920
Speaker 1: I think it's at least visual lasting impact. I think

1579
01:38:21,000 --> 01:38:23,840
Speaker 1: we've made me don't give enough credit to it. I

1580
01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:29,519
Speaker 1: think part of that is the backwards like, oh, you know,

1581
01:38:29,640 --> 01:38:32,120
Speaker 1: especially men watching it. I didn't know that like a

1582
01:38:32,280 --> 01:38:35,559
Speaker 1: movie about like girls and women could be this like

1583
01:38:36,800 --> 01:38:41,439
Speaker 1: you know, like real, yeah, this grit you know of

1584
01:38:42,680 --> 01:38:45,920
Speaker 1: which is being all its own. But I think because

1585
01:38:45,960 --> 01:38:50,479
Speaker 1: of that, the style it aesthetic influenced a lot of

1586
01:38:51,200 --> 01:38:55,160
Speaker 1: directors that were working around the same time or you know,

1587
01:38:55,240 --> 01:38:58,360
Speaker 1: we're up and coming and kind of became shorthand for

1588
01:38:58,520 --> 01:39:01,439
Speaker 1: like no, no, no, take my movie series slee um yea,

1589
01:39:01,960 --> 01:39:05,000
Speaker 1: which I think that alone, watching it was like damn

1590
01:39:05,240 --> 01:39:07,840
Speaker 1: like that. Just the look of this did a lot.

1591
01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:10,639
Speaker 1: And of course then we had all of the Twilight

1592
01:39:10,760 --> 01:39:15,800
Speaker 1: series which pay homage to this blue grade. This became

1593
01:39:15,840 --> 01:39:19,280
Speaker 1: the Hardwick House style. But Catherine Hardwick only directed the

1594
01:39:19,320 --> 01:39:21,880
Speaker 1: first one I know, and that is I mean, for

1595
01:39:21,920 --> 01:39:25,840
Speaker 1: all the rightful criticism around Katherine Hardwick in regards to

1596
01:39:25,840 --> 01:39:28,519
Speaker 1: this movie, she still should have been allowed to direct

1597
01:39:28,520 --> 01:39:32,040
Speaker 1: the other point, like, oh my god, absolutely yeah. But yeah,

1598
01:39:32,400 --> 01:39:35,320
Speaker 1: So you know, if you haven't seen this movie, maybe

1599
01:39:35,360 --> 01:39:38,439
Speaker 1: watch it for the static. I think like it kind

1600
01:39:38,479 --> 01:39:42,200
Speaker 1: of communicates a lot where the story may stumble here

1601
01:39:42,280 --> 01:39:45,759
Speaker 1: or there, or the characters are sometimes you know, viewing

1602
01:39:45,800 --> 01:39:47,640
Speaker 1: it as a moment in time, I think is the

1603
01:39:47,680 --> 01:39:53,599
Speaker 1: easiest way to interact with this movie now, very time capsuling. Yeah,

1604
01:39:53,840 --> 01:39:57,479
Speaker 1: I don't think that the movies like this, But also

1605
01:39:57,680 --> 01:40:00,600
Speaker 1: do I think that this is like more off authentic

1606
01:40:00,680 --> 01:40:05,920
Speaker 1: than a euphoria in some ways. Yes, I do like

1607
01:40:06,000 --> 01:40:09,240
Speaker 1: that it like focuses a mother daughter relationship and in

1608
01:40:09,280 --> 01:40:13,240
Speaker 1: a complicated one at that that's very relatable for a

1609
01:40:13,280 --> 01:40:15,640
Speaker 1: lot of people. And I think it is important to

1610
01:40:15,640 --> 01:40:19,479
Speaker 1: see things like this, issues like this, things that teenage

1611
01:40:19,479 --> 01:40:24,040
Speaker 1: girls deal with to be given the like cinematic respect

1612
01:40:24,120 --> 01:40:26,920
Speaker 1: of like, yeah, it is a big deal to deal

1613
01:40:27,000 --> 01:40:31,960
Speaker 1: with these things. Um, yeah, for sure. Yeah. As far

1614
01:40:32,000 --> 01:40:36,040
Speaker 1: as Caitlin's rombo meter goes, sorry to give it a

1615
01:40:36,200 --> 01:40:40,439
Speaker 1: zero out of t Yeah, I don't know twists, they're

1616
01:40:41,160 --> 01:40:45,000
Speaker 1: uh the last thing because I just didn't know this,

1617
01:40:45,120 --> 01:40:46,519
Speaker 1: and I guess I wouldn't have guessed it for a

1618
01:40:46,520 --> 01:40:49,680
Speaker 1: movie this indie. Um, Holly Hunter was nominated for an

1619
01:40:49,720 --> 01:40:53,439
Speaker 1: Oscar for this movie. It kind of a fair amount

1620
01:40:53,439 --> 01:40:56,280
Speaker 1: of awards attention. It got some Golden Globe attention. I

1621
01:40:56,280 --> 01:41:00,840
Speaker 1: think some like Baptist stuff. Yeah, but yeah, I UM,

1622
01:41:00,920 --> 01:41:03,679
Speaker 1: I thought, I thought Holly Hunter did an incredible job

1623
01:41:03,800 --> 01:41:08,040
Speaker 1: in this movie. I really, this is incredible herself, Like

1624
01:41:08,520 --> 01:41:12,679
Speaker 1: forget it, oh, I mean it's a Holly Hunter. Really.

1625
01:41:12,760 --> 01:41:15,040
Speaker 1: I feel like we've covered a fair amount. I feel

1626
01:41:15,080 --> 01:41:17,080
Speaker 1: like we we always mentioned that we love her, but

1627
01:41:17,160 --> 01:41:22,280
Speaker 1: like she's just special, She's got range, she does she

1628
01:41:22,320 --> 01:41:28,880
Speaker 1: really does well. Well there's our chat on and on

1629
01:41:28,920 --> 01:41:31,280
Speaker 1: that note, I will say, I'll tag on that. If

1630
01:41:31,280 --> 01:41:34,840
Speaker 1: anyone watched this and like kind of liked it, maybe

1631
01:41:34,880 --> 01:41:38,280
Speaker 1: check out the films by Greg Iraqi, who does he

1632
01:41:38,720 --> 01:41:42,240
Speaker 1: worked more on the eighties, but he does extremely I

1633
01:41:42,280 --> 01:41:48,240
Speaker 1: thought provoking. Queer cinema usually depicting young, um, younger not

1634
01:41:48,360 --> 01:41:52,479
Speaker 1: this young, but like younger teens. UM that feels very

1635
01:41:52,560 --> 01:41:57,960
Speaker 1: much like their perspective is like respected and um feels important.

1636
01:41:58,000 --> 01:42:01,719
Speaker 1: He's just also just a great director or so cool. Yeah,

1637
01:42:01,880 --> 01:42:04,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. Check out some of the stuff. Hell yeah,

1638
01:42:04,800 --> 01:42:09,479
Speaker 1: um cool. Well, Maggie, thank you for bringing us this real,

1639
01:42:11,000 --> 01:42:18,559
Speaker 1: really complicated text bratcher. Yeah rich text. Yeah. Where can

1640
01:42:18,600 --> 01:42:21,439
Speaker 1: we find you on the world Wide Web? Oh? Man?

1641
01:42:21,600 --> 01:42:26,679
Speaker 1: Unfortunately I am still on the internet one day no longer,

1642
01:42:27,479 --> 01:42:29,960
Speaker 1: but yeah, you can find me on Twitter. Just my

1643
01:42:30,040 --> 01:42:33,680
Speaker 1: name Maggie Mayfish m a e like my dad, great grandmother,

1644
01:42:33,840 --> 01:42:38,240
Speaker 1: not like the month the real ones now uh. And

1645
01:42:38,400 --> 01:42:43,840
Speaker 1: also on YouTube. I have another video coming out. I

1646
01:42:43,880 --> 01:42:46,160
Speaker 1: don't know when this is being released, but we have

1647
01:42:46,200 --> 01:42:51,160
Speaker 1: a video on Jim Carrey's depiction of Dr Eggman from

1648
01:42:51,160 --> 01:43:02,360
Speaker 1: the Sonic series and was he doing an Elon Musk question? Yes,

1649
01:43:02,520 --> 01:43:04,640
Speaker 1: that's that's our rich text for the next month. Is

1650
01:43:04,800 --> 01:43:09,559
Speaker 1: Sonic amazing? Yes? Everyone, please check out Maggie's stuff. And

1651
01:43:09,600 --> 01:43:13,800
Speaker 1: then you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at

1652
01:43:14,040 --> 01:43:17,479
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast. Throw us a little rate and review and

1653
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:24,160
Speaker 1: give us follow and if you're feelings, you're at it bulls.

1654
01:43:24,360 --> 01:43:30,479
Speaker 1: And we've got a Matreon at patreon dot com, slash

1655
01:43:30,479 --> 01:43:33,639
Speaker 1: backtel Cast where you get to bonus episodes every month

1656
01:43:33,760 --> 01:43:39,240
Speaker 1: plus access to the entire back catalog. This month, we're

1657
01:43:39,240 --> 01:43:43,680
Speaker 1: you know, knocking out a couple popular requests. And it's September,

1658
01:43:43,720 --> 01:43:46,680
Speaker 1: so we're doing back to schools. We're doing Never Been

1659
01:43:46,800 --> 01:43:52,160
Speaker 1: Kissed and Pitch Perfect. It's perfect, had I'm finally my

1660
01:43:52,240 --> 01:43:56,479
Speaker 1: big boss, my big boss of Bectel cast. I've been now,

1661
01:43:56,479 --> 01:43:58,240
Speaker 1: I've seen it. I just don't like it, and I

1662
01:43:58,280 --> 01:44:01,040
Speaker 1: know everyone loves it and so it's gonna be pissed

1663
01:44:01,040 --> 01:44:02,600
Speaker 1: at me. Maybe I'll love it. I haven't seen it

1664
01:44:02,640 --> 01:44:05,680
Speaker 1: since it came out. Maybe maybe I just have a

1665
01:44:05,720 --> 01:44:08,640
Speaker 1: thing against acapella groups, so like it was never gonna be.

1666
01:44:08,760 --> 01:44:12,759
Speaker 1: That's the thing I really as a former acapella radio producer,

1667
01:44:13,640 --> 01:44:18,559
Speaker 1: um sorry to out myself. I produced an acapella radio

1668
01:44:18,640 --> 01:44:21,519
Speaker 1: show for no less than two and a half years

1669
01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:26,360
Speaker 1: and did it traumatize me? Obviously because they're no wonder.

1670
01:44:26,479 --> 01:44:30,120
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I was never the same. My good my goodness. Well,

1671
01:44:30,160 --> 01:44:34,040
Speaker 1: I guess tune into our Matreon to hear Jamie unpack

1672
01:44:34,120 --> 01:44:40,280
Speaker 1: all of her acapella related trauma. Yeah yeah yeah. Could

1673
01:44:40,280 --> 01:44:43,880
Speaker 1: I at one point named twenty Boston area acapella groups

1674
01:44:43,920 --> 01:44:47,639
Speaker 1: and rank them by preference? Maybe? WHOA But we don't

1675
01:44:47,640 --> 01:44:49,320
Speaker 1: want to. Literally, the show has been on for six

1676
01:44:49,400 --> 01:44:52,160
Speaker 1: years and I have not been able to go there.

1677
01:44:52,960 --> 01:44:57,200
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, I had no idea. Well, if you

1678
01:44:57,280 --> 01:45:02,160
Speaker 1: need some merch, you can go to uh T public

1679
01:45:02,240 --> 01:45:06,719
Speaker 1: dot com, slash the Bechtel Cast and grab yourself some teas,

1680
01:45:07,479 --> 01:45:13,880
Speaker 1: some stickers, some pillows and the other items. Follow your heart.

1681
01:45:14,560 --> 01:45:17,240
Speaker 1: We got pillows, I love. I love my Becktel Cast. Pillows.

1682
01:45:17,560 --> 01:45:21,200
Speaker 1: Not gonna lie. I might get some more um. And

1683
01:45:21,320 --> 01:45:28,200
Speaker 1: with that, let's repair our relationships with our moms. Let's

1684
01:45:28,280 --> 01:45:30,559
Speaker 1: do it. Let's do it. Bye bye bye