WEBVTT - Charles Lloyd/Don Was 0:00:15.516 --> 0:00:15.996 Pushkin. 0:00:20.476 --> 0:00:23.796 A conversation with Charles Lloyd feels like a veritable interaction 0:00:23.916 --> 0:00:28.036 with the pages of history. I was continuously surprised throughout 0:00:28.076 --> 0:00:31.476 my conversation with Charles, along with Don was about the 0:00:31.516 --> 0:00:35.716 depth of his experiences and the wisdom too. Charles is 0:00:35.756 --> 0:00:39.036 an ordinately beautiful tenor player from Memphis, Tennessee, who grew 0:00:39.076 --> 0:00:41.756 up at a time when the region was brimming with talent. 0:00:42.436 --> 0:00:46.556 Elvis Presley, Helen Wolfe, Junior Parker, Billy Lee, Riley, B. B. King, 0:00:46.956 --> 0:00:49.116 and so many more were from there or made their 0:00:49.116 --> 0:00:53.076 careers there. It was also a popular destination for toring artists, 0:00:53.076 --> 0:00:58.116 giving a young Charles an incredible musical education. On today's 0:00:58.116 --> 0:01:00.876 episode of Broken Record, another in our series celebrating the 0:01:00.916 --> 0:01:03.836 eighty fifth anniversary of Blue Note Records, I have Don's 0:01:03.876 --> 0:01:06.116 my co host, and we talked to Charles Lloyd about 0:01:06.156 --> 0:01:09.556 his colorful upbringing in Memphis and about the early Last Angels, 0:01:09.636 --> 0:01:11.636 Jazzy and he became a part of after moving to 0:01:11.676 --> 0:01:16.076 California to attend usc This conversation goes a lot of places, 0:01:16.116 --> 0:01:18.996 from Elvis to Quincy Jones, to the Beach Boys and 0:01:19.196 --> 0:01:22.036 far beyond. And please be sure to check out his 0:01:22.196 --> 0:01:25.076 wonderful new album out on Blue Note. The Sky will 0:01:25.116 --> 0:01:31.116 be there tomorrow. This is Broken Record liner Notes for 0:01:31.196 --> 0:01:32.116 the Digital Age. 0:01:32.236 --> 0:01:33.196 I'm justin Mitchman. 0:01:38.076 --> 0:01:40.636 Here's Don Was and myself from Amazon Music Studio one 0:01:40.756 --> 0:01:44.556 twenty six in Culver City, California with Charles Lloyd. To 0:01:44.596 --> 0:01:46.436 see the full video version of this episode, go to 0:01:46.436 --> 0:01:49.116 YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast. 0:01:50.596 --> 0:01:54.876 I would love to start at the beginning. I remember 0:01:54.876 --> 0:01:59.116 one time you told me that you had like African 0:01:59.796 --> 0:02:04.396 Choctaw Irish and Mongolian. 0:02:04.476 --> 0:02:07.356 Little jerky in there too with the Chocto. Yeah, and 0:02:07.436 --> 0:02:10.556 I don't bring all my guns out right away or 0:02:10.716 --> 0:02:16.796 arrows into infinity. Yeah. Well what happened was, let's see, 0:02:16.956 --> 0:02:20.596 a future slave ship came over here and brought some people. 0:02:20.716 --> 0:02:25.876 But before my eldest were already here. Sally Sunflower white Cloud. 0:02:26.316 --> 0:02:28.916 It was my great grandmother, and I have her songs. 0:02:29.556 --> 0:02:33.316 And then on Mary Flowers side, that's on my grandfather's side, 0:02:33.396 --> 0:02:37.436 Sally Sunflower white Cloud. On my mother's side there was 0:02:37.516 --> 0:02:42.076 Mary Flowers who was married to Bud Maccombe from Ireland. 0:02:43.396 --> 0:02:49.836 And I don't know a lot about the direct brothers 0:02:50.076 --> 0:02:53.316 and the Mongolian I asked my grandmother, where did we 0:02:53.356 --> 0:02:57.676 come from? And she said Mongolia. And then I looked 0:02:57.676 --> 0:03:00.236 at a map and somebody told me the Barons Street. 0:03:00.436 --> 0:03:02.876 They walked across the barren streets to get over here, 0:03:02.876 --> 0:03:06.356 because there was a time when you could walk across. Okay, 0:03:07.196 --> 0:03:14.716 So we go far back, Caw. But my great great 0:03:15.476 --> 0:03:21.476 grandmother was Hagar right, And Dorothy knows my history because 0:03:21.516 --> 0:03:26.956 she went down south Mississippi and did the serious digging 0:03:27.076 --> 0:03:32.076 and went behind the counter and went into the archives. 0:03:33.196 --> 0:03:40.356 The problem is that Hagar, this is deep. No one 0:03:40.476 --> 0:03:43.316 responds to it, but I need to bring it out. 0:03:43.876 --> 0:03:46.596 She was taking a ten years old from her parents 0:03:46.636 --> 0:03:51.756 down in Mississippi by slave owner up in Balivard, Tennessee, 0:03:52.476 --> 0:03:57.716 need him Ingram, and he proceeded to rape on her 0:03:58.116 --> 0:04:02.676 ten year old girl. She's pedophile stuff. And at thirteen 0:04:03.796 --> 0:04:10.236 she had my great grandfather, Ben Ingram Senior. And this 0:04:10.276 --> 0:04:13.116 guy had the nerve when his daughter got married with 0:04:13.676 --> 0:04:20.716 his white wife to give my great grandmother, great great 0:04:20.756 --> 0:04:26.316 grandmother and her child Ben as a wedding gift to 0:04:26.436 --> 0:04:30.836 his daughter. So, man, I got some serious beefs about 0:04:30.876 --> 0:04:33.756 this stuff that's going on, and it's still going on, 0:04:34.356 --> 0:04:38.196 and I'm kind of blowing fuses as a young man 0:04:38.236 --> 0:04:42.396 at Blue Fuses. Now I can't afford to blow fuses. 0:04:42.436 --> 0:04:44.636 So what I have to do now is to go 0:04:44.716 --> 0:04:48.596 back on the south and make some music that can 0:04:48.636 --> 0:04:51.556 heal the world. But that's naive because I thought I 0:04:51.636 --> 0:04:54.196 was doing that when I was a young man, and 0:04:55.236 --> 0:05:00.396 some people heard it. But in two thousand, Master Higgins, 0:05:00.396 --> 0:05:03.396 Billy Higgins, said he wanted to come up to visit 0:05:03.516 --> 0:05:08.556 us at our compound, and he wanted us to do 0:05:08.636 --> 0:05:13.636 some work that was that he could only do with me. 0:05:14.836 --> 0:05:17.116 So he brought all of his drums and all of 0:05:17.156 --> 0:05:23.916 his instruments, guitars from Africa, from all that Moorys stuff, 0:05:24.436 --> 0:05:28.436 and we began to go at it for about a week. 0:05:29.076 --> 0:05:33.196 Dorothy made the wonderful veggies for us. At the time 0:05:33.236 --> 0:05:35.756 he showed up, I'd been fasting for a couple of weeks, 0:05:36.476 --> 0:05:38.916 and I told him that I was going to go 0:05:39.036 --> 0:05:42.316 back into the forest and give it up again. And 0:05:42.796 --> 0:05:44.916 he's two years older than me, and I met him 0:05:44.916 --> 0:05:49.276 when I first came out here in fifty six at 0:05:49.276 --> 0:05:53.276 a jam session where he was there and Ornett was there, 0:05:54.396 --> 0:06:00.756 and he and I had a bonding instantly. Ornett came 0:06:00.836 --> 0:06:05.596 to this jam session and he played. But I was 0:06:05.716 --> 0:06:08.636 new in town, and there's a place called the Stadium 0:06:08.636 --> 0:06:12.756 Club over by USC. Now that I look back on USC, men, 0:06:12.916 --> 0:06:16.996 there's some stuff that's very disturbing to me that I 0:06:19.556 --> 0:06:22.356 had to do my own personal research on. I got 0:06:22.356 --> 0:06:25.516 so many balls in the air. But anyway, so Arnett 0:06:26.916 --> 0:06:29.876 was let up on the stage and they were playing 0:06:30.356 --> 0:06:32.316 what is this thing called Love? So what on that 0:06:32.436 --> 0:06:36.436 play was the Etymology of Love? And they invited him 0:06:36.436 --> 0:06:42.836 off the bandstand because he wasn't adhering to just running 0:06:42.836 --> 0:06:47.196 the changes. He was talking about the real deal and 0:06:47.276 --> 0:06:51.116 I heard it and I love something about it. He 0:06:51.196 --> 0:06:53.876 had to suspend us on and he had this homemade 0:06:53.876 --> 0:06:57.476 outfit that was very special. We used to go to 0:06:57.556 --> 0:06:59.916 a tail in Memphis called Paul the Tail, and there 0:06:59.956 --> 0:07:05.236 was another one called Collettes. They were both on Beale Street. 0:07:05.396 --> 0:07:08.636 So I had my stuff that I had to change 0:07:08.716 --> 0:07:11.116 up real soon. I had twenty five inch knees and 0:07:11.196 --> 0:07:15.596 eighteen inch bottom. I remember that, you know specific about that. 0:07:16.036 --> 0:07:17.916 But when I got out here, they were wearing those 0:07:17.956 --> 0:07:22.196 little uh yeah, she knows, okay, So my stuff was 0:07:22.596 --> 0:07:28.236 too out for school. So I had to find a 0:07:28.236 --> 0:07:34.916 way to make my stuff work anyway, because I was 0:07:34.956 --> 0:07:37.876 in it, but I wasn't of it. And I had 0:07:38.116 --> 0:07:40.716 some songs to sing. And when I was a little boy, 0:07:40.836 --> 0:07:44.556 Duke Ellington and Johnny Hodges, those people stayed at our 0:07:44.556 --> 0:07:47.316 house because we had a large house and they weren't 0:07:47.316 --> 0:07:50.916 adequate hotels for these musicians. So the lady from the 0:07:50.916 --> 0:07:54.596 theater called my mother and said, you know, can you 0:07:54.916 --> 0:07:57.356 help us out and accommodate some quality of people. 0:07:57.996 --> 0:07:59.636 So Duke Ellington stayed at your house. 0:07:59.756 --> 0:08:04.876 Yes, so did Lionel Hampton, so did special various people. 0:08:04.916 --> 0:08:07.276 I met Quincy Jones during that period. He was playing 0:08:07.316 --> 0:08:12.676 trumpet with Loonel Hampton. Quincy was he was five years 0:08:12.676 --> 0:08:15.196 older than myself. But he was a little bitty, little 0:08:15.236 --> 0:08:17.716 skinny guy and I was a little bitty, little skinny guy. 0:08:18.036 --> 0:08:22.236 And I was about nine and so he would have 0:08:22.276 --> 0:08:27.796 been five years he was about sixteen. Yeah, And so 0:08:28.076 --> 0:08:31.396 we had a simpatico and when I came to California, 0:08:31.476 --> 0:08:34.876 he would turn people on to me to do sessions 0:08:34.916 --> 0:08:37.276 and stuff. You know, he was like it in those 0:08:37.396 --> 0:08:41.596 days for the jazz community. He was like networker and 0:08:41.636 --> 0:08:44.316 he knew, he knew where stuff was, and people would 0:08:44.316 --> 0:08:47.076 call me from Capitol your company in different companies, and 0:08:47.076 --> 0:08:49.396 I'd go do sessions. That was very special, and I 0:08:49.476 --> 0:08:52.076 always remember that, and I think he's the one who 0:08:52.796 --> 0:08:57.556 recommended me to Cannonball Attilie when you Latiith left. That 0:08:57.676 --> 0:09:01.476 was in sixty four and Joe Sabeu was in that band, 0:09:01.556 --> 0:09:05.756 Sam Jones, Lewis Hayes and Cannon's brother Nat. So I 0:09:05.756 --> 0:09:08.276 played with that sex Step for going on two years. 0:09:09.316 --> 0:09:12.636 And then I had a b in my bonnet that 0:09:12.676 --> 0:09:17.236 I need to express Eibo, my stuff, personal music that 0:09:17.316 --> 0:09:19.876 I had to make because when I was with Chico, 0:09:20.316 --> 0:09:23.916 I had replaced Eric Dolphy Chico Hamilton, Sorry, thank you. 0:09:24.596 --> 0:09:28.156 And what happened was that Chico made me music director 0:09:28.756 --> 0:09:30.556 and so I'd written all this music when I was 0:09:30.596 --> 0:09:32.796 a canniball. He said we'll be playing we'll play your 0:09:32.876 --> 0:09:36.076 music too. But he also had he was a racking 0:09:36.196 --> 0:09:38.036 tour and stuff, you know, and he was good at 0:09:38.076 --> 0:09:40.716 the microphone and handling people and stuff like that. In 0:09:40.836 --> 0:09:44.036 cordiality anyway, So I was there for a couple of years. 0:09:44.316 --> 0:09:46.716 Then when I started my own band, when I was 0:09:46.756 --> 0:09:49.756 a canniballist Keith Jarrett had heard me in Boston. He 0:09:49.836 --> 0:09:53.036 was going to school at Berkeley and he was playing 0:09:53.276 --> 0:09:56.956 upstairs and we were playing downstairs at he said, I 0:09:56.996 --> 0:09:58.356 want to play with you. I said, well, you know, 0:09:58.396 --> 0:10:00.716 when the time comes, you know, I'll let you know. 0:10:01.476 --> 0:10:05.476 And then when the time came, Goborzabo, who had been 0:10:05.476 --> 0:10:07.676 playing with me with Chico, I called him, and Pete 0:10:07.756 --> 0:10:12.756 Larocca and oh Alvert Stenson wonderful basis that people don't 0:10:12.756 --> 0:10:15.556 know because he left early too. He left in his twenties, 0:10:15.676 --> 0:10:20.956 early twenties, around that age that guys leave town. But 0:10:21.076 --> 0:10:23.516 he was even younger than that, and he and Bobby 0:10:23.596 --> 0:10:27.596 Hutcheson had grown up in Pasadena and he was a 0:10:27.676 --> 0:10:31.796 genius in Scott LaFaro and Charlie Hayden were the young Lions. 0:10:32.156 --> 0:10:39.836 But sparky Alvert Stenson had a strong sound, real woody, 0:10:40.076 --> 0:10:43.316 you know, and he loved wilbur Ware and so he 0:10:43.396 --> 0:10:44.996 came from there anyway. 0:10:45.116 --> 0:10:47.396 So, yeah, there's so many places I want to go 0:10:47.476 --> 0:10:50.876 back to. Yeah, so you talked about Higgins coming. 0:10:51.636 --> 0:10:54.716 Yeah, Higgins was playing that jam session to everybody loved 0:10:54.716 --> 0:10:58.076 Billy Higgins because no matter how you played behind the beat, 0:10:58.116 --> 0:11:00.476 on the beat, whatever he could make you a tailor 0:11:00.516 --> 0:11:04.316 made suit, because that's that's what he fixed your stuff 0:11:04.396 --> 0:11:07.276 up right up. You know. They finally let me play 0:11:07.316 --> 0:11:09.956 at the end of the session because I'm young kids 0:11:09.956 --> 0:11:12.556 sitting over there with an alto and that was my 0:11:12.636 --> 0:11:16.676 instrument that started off. And finally let me on the 0:11:16.676 --> 0:11:19.236 band stand. But it was strange because they didn't invited 0:11:19.316 --> 0:11:23.476 on that off prior set. But On that comes up 0:11:23.516 --> 0:11:27.316 to me with his splendid outfit that he had made 0:11:27.396 --> 0:11:29.996 it home, and he said, you know, you can really 0:11:30.036 --> 0:11:32.556 play the saxophone, but that don't have a lot to 0:11:32.596 --> 0:11:35.916 do with music. And so I said, wow, you know, 0:11:35.996 --> 0:11:40.556 I'd been in Memphis with George Coleman and Hank Craft 0:11:40.556 --> 0:11:45.916 and Frank Strojan Booker, Little my Master and all the 0:11:45.956 --> 0:11:49.276 cats in Memphis and there it was a rich tradition. 0:11:49.356 --> 0:11:52.436 Phineas Newborn was our js Bock and he was our 0:11:52.476 --> 0:11:59.036 hero in Memphis and he always was extremely special by On. 0:11:59.236 --> 0:12:03.276 That's saying that he didn't say it with hostility. It 0:12:03.316 --> 0:12:05.516 wasn't harsh. It was you know where he talks. Yeah, 0:12:05.596 --> 0:12:08.436 you can't ready place apo. They don't have a lot 0:12:08.476 --> 0:12:12.516 to do with me, so it was sweet. So somehow 0:12:13.796 --> 0:12:18.076 he and I lived several blocks from each other. He 0:12:18.116 --> 0:12:20.276 would come over to my house, I'd go to his house, 0:12:20.316 --> 0:12:24.356 and we began to go at it, you know, with 0:12:24.436 --> 0:12:29.436 the music. And I was coming from a lot of 0:12:30.396 --> 0:12:35.076 modern tradition. It's like the old guys in Memphis said 0:12:35.116 --> 0:12:37.076 to me, you know you playing all those notes because 0:12:37.076 --> 0:12:40.036 i'd heard bird. You know, so you're playing all those notes, 0:12:40.076 --> 0:12:45.276 but they don't mean anything without a beautiful sound. So 0:12:46.076 --> 0:12:49.996 I started practicing long tones. Phineas Newborn hurt me on 0:12:50.036 --> 0:12:53.996 an amateur show and I won first prize. I was 0:12:54.036 --> 0:12:56.796 about nine or ten, and he said, you need lessons bad. 0:12:56.956 --> 0:12:59.556 When I walked into the wings, he takes me around 0:12:59.556 --> 0:13:02.036 the corner on Beal Street to Irving Reason, a great 0:13:02.076 --> 0:13:05.516 alto player, and left me say you need lessons. And 0:13:05.756 --> 0:13:09.556 so I didn't get to get rich before I learned 0:13:09.556 --> 0:13:12.116 how to play. I had to focus on the music, 0:13:12.316 --> 0:13:16.036 and so Irving was great for me. Phineas kept kept 0:13:16.076 --> 0:13:18.476 on top of me, and then maybe I was twelve 0:13:18.556 --> 0:13:20.876 or thirteen, he put me in band with his brother 0:13:20.956 --> 0:13:24.436 Calvin and in his father's band, playing at the plantation 0:13:24.556 --> 0:13:28.276 in Over across the river. In West Memphis, Arkansas. So 0:13:28.316 --> 0:13:31.756 we played this several nights a week, seven nights, six seven, 0:13:32.516 --> 0:13:36.436 and then I had gigs with all those blues guys too, 0:13:36.676 --> 0:13:40.356 and my favorite was Howling Wolf, Junior Parker, Johnny A's 0:13:40.556 --> 0:13:46.876 BB King, Roscoe Gordon, on and on anyway, So I 0:13:46.916 --> 0:13:51.476 had lots of deep experiences with those blues guys because 0:13:51.516 --> 0:13:54.516 they could reach the back of the hall or the 0:13:54.676 --> 0:13:58.196 schoolhouse or wherever we were playing, and they were communicators, 0:13:58.236 --> 0:14:02.116 you know. And I somehow got infected by that because 0:14:02.156 --> 0:14:06.196 I was moved by how women would throw their panties 0:14:06.236 --> 0:14:09.556 on the stage and do stuff of surrender, do you know, 0:14:09.596 --> 0:14:11.756 without And I'm a little kid, you know, I'm not 0:14:12.036 --> 0:14:16.076 ready for that lane yet, but I saw something in 0:14:16.116 --> 0:14:20.196 there that was frightening and intriguing and interesting, you know. 0:14:20.356 --> 0:14:23.636 So I didn't have the chops yet for any of that. 0:14:24.316 --> 0:14:26.676 But uh was Hubert someone with Wolf? 0:14:27.156 --> 0:14:30.276 That different cast? Play with Wolf? You know. 0:14:31.276 --> 0:14:32.516 It's like talking to Quincy Jones. 0:14:34.116 --> 0:14:38.196 You've done everything, no, no, but Quincy well, he's a 0:14:38.196 --> 0:14:41.196 special guy. I don't know him now, you know. I'm 0:14:41.196 --> 0:14:42.996 sure if we saw each other, Well, no, I do. 0:14:43.116 --> 0:14:46.356 I shouldn't talk like that, you know. I was playing 0:14:46.356 --> 0:14:49.596 at montro a few years ago and he came backstage. 0:14:49.636 --> 0:14:51.556 He was pulling on my coat when I walked near 0:14:51.556 --> 0:14:56.316 the near the edge of the stage, and he remembered 0:14:56.316 --> 0:15:00.836 you from uh from oh well, no, throughout he's remembered. 0:15:01.996 --> 0:15:06.716 We're cordial, you know, and it's just that, Uh. I've 0:15:06.716 --> 0:15:12.196 been drunk with this music. And what my idea was 0:15:12.196 --> 0:15:15.756 was to change the world with the beauty of music. 0:15:16.076 --> 0:15:19.716 And I'm still at it. But I went away for 0:15:19.756 --> 0:15:22.316 a while because I blew fuses as a young man, 0:15:22.436 --> 0:15:27.316 because the setup was so unfair and so gross that 0:15:28.396 --> 0:15:30.836 you know, it didn't work for me, and I began 0:15:30.876 --> 0:15:33.116 to medicate myself too, you know. So I had a 0:15:33.116 --> 0:15:36.356 lot of stuff I had to deal with. But when 0:15:36.356 --> 0:15:38.716 I first got to New York, I checked into the 0:15:38.716 --> 0:15:41.916 Alvin Hotel where Prais had lived, and Prais died there. 0:15:42.596 --> 0:15:47.916 And that's too young, correct, And that's too young, Yes, 0:15:48.316 --> 0:15:52.436 my hero. I've gone around the world in a plane, 0:15:52.476 --> 0:15:55.276 but I've come back to Prais because he was the 0:15:55.316 --> 0:15:58.036 poet of the music. That's why when you hear this 0:15:58.116 --> 0:16:02.716 new record, don that we made it Prais's He came 0:16:02.756 --> 0:16:08.036 and visited me, you know. And Pras died on March fifteenth, 0:16:08.196 --> 0:16:13.436 nineteen fifty nine, I believe, and I just turned twenty one. 0:16:14.356 --> 0:16:17.756 Whenever I turned twenty one. The chronology may elude me, 0:16:18.276 --> 0:16:23.756 but I think I have some mystical notion that Pres said, Okay, 0:16:24.316 --> 0:16:26.876 I'm leaving town, but let's see what you can do 0:16:26.956 --> 0:16:31.196 with this stuff. So I have notions like that, not 0:16:31.556 --> 0:16:33.636 illusions of grand shurt. I got that when I was 0:16:33.636 --> 0:16:36.196 a little kid, but Phineas nipped that in the bud. 0:16:36.836 --> 0:16:42.276 But anyway, I'm just I'm a lone man on the mountain, 0:16:42.636 --> 0:16:46.076 as you know, and I'm trying to sing this song. 0:16:46.956 --> 0:16:50.316 And I told Master Higgins when he came up at 0:16:50.356 --> 0:16:54.036 that time in two thousand, that I was getting ready 0:16:54.076 --> 0:16:56.316 to go back into the forest. You know, I've been 0:16:56.356 --> 0:16:59.636 in Big Sur for a decade or more. And he said, well, 0:16:59.996 --> 0:17:03.876 I said, nobody cares about this music, and he said, 0:17:03.996 --> 0:17:07.316 fuck them, we care. It was such a strong rebuke. 0:17:07.556 --> 0:17:12.316 And Master Higgins was always He's very special, as I 0:17:12.356 --> 0:17:15.396 just told you, and everybody wanted Billy to play with him. 0:17:15.636 --> 0:17:20.636 You know, you know that Recordly Morgan made Sidewinder, Well, 0:17:21.556 --> 0:17:24.996 he and Billy was on that record. Along with Barry Harris, 0:17:25.036 --> 0:17:29.076 and I think Higgins told me something also almost had 0:17:29.116 --> 0:17:31.916 a profound effect on me, like my great great grandmother. 0:17:32.036 --> 0:17:34.316 It was like they were up in Harlem looking for 0:17:34.356 --> 0:17:37.076 the man because they needed their medicine and they were 0:17:37.076 --> 0:17:41.476 in bad shape, and they went to every bar in 0:17:41.596 --> 0:17:46.396 Harlem and Sidewinder was playing on the box everywhere. It 0:17:46.516 --> 0:17:51.596 was the fuel. It was lifting up the The whole 0:17:51.676 --> 0:17:54.596 darm of the planet was being held up by that song. 0:17:55.516 --> 0:17:59.756 So what happened was that they couldn't find the man. 0:17:59.876 --> 0:18:04.196 He wasn't in any bar. And they finally found him 0:18:04.316 --> 0:18:06.756 and he was sitting there very areadype, you know, with 0:18:06.876 --> 0:18:12.156 his vaunts and stuff, and they said we need our mens, 0:18:12.596 --> 0:18:15.396 and he said, They said, but we're two dollars short. 0:18:16.636 --> 0:18:19.716 And he looked at them and he said, I'm sorry, 0:18:19.756 --> 0:18:23.996 I can't help you guys, you know. And after these 0:18:24.036 --> 0:18:29.076 guys it lit up the planet with Sideline. He can't 0:18:29.116 --> 0:18:33.796 help them, and you know, so there's a lot of injustice, 0:18:35.276 --> 0:18:40.036 you know, personal that not to mention the foulness of 0:18:41.236 --> 0:18:43.956 man's inhumanity to the man and throwing rocks at each 0:18:43.996 --> 0:18:47.276 other for thousands of years, and this stuff has been 0:18:47.356 --> 0:18:50.396 bothering me lately, and I've got to shake it off 0:18:50.436 --> 0:18:53.116 because this morning it hit me real hard. You know. 0:18:54.756 --> 0:18:58.436 I have friends all around the world, and folks aren't 0:18:58.436 --> 0:19:02.916 being treated right, you know, and these giant politicians they've 0:19:02.916 --> 0:19:06.876 pad their pockets and stuff. But we need sages to 0:19:06.916 --> 0:19:12.116 help humanity, you know. So it's so back to my song. 0:19:12.876 --> 0:19:15.956 I'm making this music that the heel of planet. So 0:19:16.076 --> 0:19:21.196 I'm and I keep coming up short, you know, and 0:19:21.276 --> 0:19:24.796 it's troubling to my nervous system to be kind candid 0:19:24.876 --> 0:19:28.076 with you. I can't tell you something, Charles Sure. 0:19:28.276 --> 0:19:30.756 I heard you play for the first time in the 0:19:30.796 --> 0:19:35.796 mid sixties. I saw you play live, oh you fourteen fifteen, 0:19:38.116 --> 0:19:45.076 and your music impacted my life so tremendously. So you 0:19:45.876 --> 0:19:49.276 may not see the full impact. Yeah, yeah, I know. 0:19:49.556 --> 0:19:55.756 Maybe the whole society didn't change, but on a personal level, 0:19:55.956 --> 0:19:59.516 just the tone of your instrument. That's why the tone 0:19:59.556 --> 0:20:03.116 of your instrument is one of the constants in my life, 0:20:03.596 --> 0:20:07.796 you know, in my adult life, and it has such 0:20:07.916 --> 0:20:12.996 soothing and healing properties. You may not see that that 0:20:13.236 --> 0:20:16.236 part of it that may not turn up at a concert, 0:20:16.436 --> 0:20:21.156 that certainly won't turn up in a newspaper, but enter 0:20:23.316 --> 0:20:26.836 joy and peacefulness from that. And I'm just one person. 0:20:26.916 --> 0:20:27.076 Man. 0:20:27.316 --> 0:20:29.756 I know you sold a million copies of forest Flower. 0:20:30.436 --> 0:20:36.396 Thank you. I appreciate that. I think I'm probably here 0:20:37.316 --> 0:20:44.676 because of you, because the whole recording industry was run 0:20:44.716 --> 0:20:47.436 like a plantation system as far as I could see 0:20:47.476 --> 0:20:48.996 in my lifetime early on. 0:20:50.116 --> 0:20:52.396 We'll be right back with more from Charles Lloyd after 0:20:52.436 --> 0:20:59.516 the break. We're back with Charles Lloyd in conversation with 0:20:59.636 --> 0:21:00.756 Don was and me. 0:21:02.156 --> 0:21:06.356 Well, the thing is that I was reading something the 0:21:06.396 --> 0:21:10.636 other day and it told me that JA Music sells 0:21:10.676 --> 0:21:14.636 two of the records sales. I don't want to believe that. 0:21:14.876 --> 0:21:17.596 Accept that. It's kind of like I would wonder why 0:21:18.676 --> 0:21:23.236 people don't vote to have somebody who could have more 0:21:23.316 --> 0:21:27.276 caring at least because it's it's all corrupt. But what 0:21:27.316 --> 0:21:30.516 I'm saying is that it hurts me. You're gonna have 0:21:30.516 --> 0:21:34.476 to edit this because I'm sure not much of it's useful. 0:21:35.036 --> 0:21:41.916 But it's beautiful, man, It's like a solo. Well you did, ah, The. 0:21:41.796 --> 0:21:43.076 Thing is beautiful. 0:21:43.636 --> 0:21:47.116 The thing is that I'm troubled by the condition of 0:21:47.156 --> 0:21:50.876 the condition. And you know, Dorothy going down south with 0:21:50.956 --> 0:21:54.196 my cousin Selene, and they going back there. It's a 0:21:54.196 --> 0:21:58.436 funny thing Dorothy told me. When she and my cousin 0:21:59.476 --> 0:22:03.916 went to the archives or where the record County Hall 0:22:03.956 --> 0:22:06.356 where the records are kept, they said they want to 0:22:06.396 --> 0:22:13.636 look into the records, and oh they're here, you know, yeah, 0:22:13.716 --> 0:22:16.356 because they knew they were dirty, and they said, oh, 0:22:16.396 --> 0:22:19.756 they've come to see the records. And so she looked 0:22:19.836 --> 0:22:24.476 up Sally Sunflower, White Cloud and all these indigenous folks 0:22:23.956 --> 0:22:30.996 that I have some blood with, and I love all people. 0:22:31.156 --> 0:22:35.596 You know. When I came out here to Cali, I 0:22:35.636 --> 0:22:39.236 was about to tell you about my USC experience, and 0:22:39.596 --> 0:22:42.156 I got upset with myself. The other day at some 0:22:42.316 --> 0:22:47.636 of my research. There's this guy named Rufus von Kleinschmidt 0:22:48.076 --> 0:22:52.036 who was the He had been a president of USC, 0:22:52.116 --> 0:22:55.036 I think from twenty one to forty six or somewhere 0:22:55.076 --> 0:22:59.996 in the twenty fourth and he now when I went 0:23:00.036 --> 0:23:04.356 to SC I started in fifty six and there was 0:23:04.396 --> 0:23:08.036 a genius in the dorm. His name was Milton Oldham 0:23:08.556 --> 0:23:12.596 and he was from Asbury Park, New Jersey, and he 0:23:12.716 --> 0:23:14.956 was so brilliant. He was like lit up. You know, 0:23:14.956 --> 0:23:18.916 it's a little guy, you know, about five feet two 0:23:19.036 --> 0:23:22.116 or three. But he was like a light bulb, you know, 0:23:22.156 --> 0:23:24.556 and he would do everybody's homework and help everybody in 0:23:24.556 --> 0:23:31.636 the dorm. I got to the dorm Anias Hall in 0:23:31.676 --> 0:23:34.036 the summer of fifty six because I was run out 0:23:34.036 --> 0:23:37.716 of town. I was playing in West Memphis with Willie Mitchell, 0:23:38.796 --> 0:23:41.076 and those girls liked us a lot. It was a 0:23:41.116 --> 0:23:47.156 white dance hall called Danny's, and we'd have to run 0:23:47.196 --> 0:23:52.276 back across the bridge and Willie's Pontiac car whatever it 0:23:52.436 --> 0:23:54.996 was doing one hundred and twenty whatever it would do, 0:23:55.436 --> 0:23:58.036 because we were always being chased and stuff, you know. 0:23:58.956 --> 0:24:06.116 And my stepfather sold cars and in the black part 0:24:06.156 --> 0:24:09.476 of the dealership, you know, he would get referred girls 0:24:09.556 --> 0:24:11.956 and stuff, and you take care of the guys, you know, 0:24:12.036 --> 0:24:14.956 with some change, you know. And somebody called him from 0:24:14.956 --> 0:24:17.956 the police station and said they're coming to rest your 0:24:17.996 --> 0:24:21.396 son tomorrow night, you know, because they've been pooling around 0:24:21.396 --> 0:24:25.956 with those girls. And so when when he goes to 0:24:26.036 --> 0:24:29.356 work tomorrow night, just want to let you know he's 0:24:29.396 --> 0:24:33.156 on the list, which point my mother said, no, he's not. 0:24:34.196 --> 0:24:39.556 And my stepfather also worked on the railroad, pulling forward 0:24:39.596 --> 0:24:43.716 this stuff, so he put me in a first class 0:24:45.876 --> 0:24:48.956 drawing room, a on the plane, on the on the train, 0:24:49.076 --> 0:24:52.316 and took me across the country. That's how you ended 0:24:52.396 --> 0:24:54.556 up it in La I got there in the summer. 0:24:54.596 --> 0:24:57.036 I was supposed to start in the in the ball 0:24:57.836 --> 0:25:01.156 but when I got there, i'd all had a lot 0:25:01.196 --> 0:25:07.916 of solicitations from fraternities offering me to take residents there 0:25:08.356 --> 0:25:11.636 for summer because they would collect bread. You know, they 0:25:11.716 --> 0:25:13.796 have some tenants in the house, you know, till the 0:25:13.796 --> 0:25:17.436 boys get back. So and then I told some guys 0:25:17.436 --> 0:25:20.756 in the dorm that all those returnities had been trying 0:25:20.756 --> 0:25:29.076 to send me solicitations. They laughed. I didn't quite understand. 0:25:29.636 --> 0:25:32.796 When I checked into the dorm, it was summertime. There 0:25:32.796 --> 0:25:35.516 were no people of color there. So what they did 0:25:35.676 --> 0:25:39.876 was they put me with a Hawaiian you did, Ken Purdle, 0:25:40.516 --> 0:25:43.156 and his mother was Hawaii and his father was a 0:25:43.196 --> 0:25:46.276 Howlly from England or something. You know. This guy later 0:25:46.276 --> 0:25:49.276 committed suicide. He joined one of those fraternities. But what 0:25:49.436 --> 0:25:53.996 happened was it backfired on him because he couldn't go 0:25:54.196 --> 0:25:58.436 fully with the program. And so when you. 0:25:57.916 --> 0:26:01.356 You couldn't shake not being fully white, you couldn't shake 0:26:01.436 --> 0:26:02.636 not being fully white. 0:26:02.396 --> 0:26:06.316 And somewhere in there because it was a very racist 0:26:06.316 --> 0:26:09.316 time in the fifties. It still is, you know, it 0:26:09.396 --> 0:26:13.476 was so overt. Then we're getting back to vun Kleinschmidt, 0:26:13.556 --> 0:26:16.796 Rufus vun Clinschmidt. Whenever I've told people about him, so 0:26:16.956 --> 0:26:19.916 you have to be careful because there's some stuff out 0:26:19.916 --> 0:26:24.276 there protecting him. No one has ever taken that in 0:26:24.356 --> 0:26:27.476 an interview for me, and I often wondered why, so 0:26:27.556 --> 0:26:29.116