1 00:00:15,516 --> 00:00:15,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,476 --> 00:00:23,796 Speaker 2: A conversation with Charles Lloyd feels like a veritable interaction 3 00:00:23,916 --> 00:00:28,036 Speaker 2: with the pages of history. I was continuously surprised throughout 4 00:00:28,076 --> 00:00:31,476 Speaker 2: my conversation with Charles, along with Don was about the 5 00:00:31,516 --> 00:00:35,716 Speaker 2: depth of his experiences and the wisdom too. Charles is 6 00:00:35,756 --> 00:00:39,036 Speaker 2: an ordinately beautiful tenor player from Memphis, Tennessee, who grew 7 00:00:39,076 --> 00:00:41,756 Speaker 2: up at a time when the region was brimming with talent. 8 00:00:42,436 --> 00:00:46,556 Speaker 2: Elvis Presley, Helen Wolfe, Junior Parker, Billy Lee, Riley, B. B. King, 9 00:00:46,956 --> 00:00:49,116 Speaker 2: and so many more were from there or made their 10 00:00:49,116 --> 00:00:53,076 Speaker 2: careers there. It was also a popular destination for toring artists, 11 00:00:53,076 --> 00:00:58,116 Speaker 2: giving a young Charles an incredible musical education. On today's 12 00:00:58,116 --> 00:01:00,876 Speaker 2: episode of Broken Record, another in our series celebrating the 13 00:01:00,916 --> 00:01:03,836 Speaker 2: eighty fifth anniversary of Blue Note Records, I have Don's 14 00:01:03,876 --> 00:01:06,116 Speaker 2: my co host, and we talked to Charles Lloyd about 15 00:01:06,156 --> 00:01:09,556 Speaker 2: his colorful upbringing in Memphis and about the early Last Angels, 16 00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:11,636 Speaker 2: Jazzy and he became a part of after moving to 17 00:01:11,676 --> 00:01:16,076 Speaker 2: California to attend usc This conversation goes a lot of places, 18 00:01:16,116 --> 00:01:18,996 Speaker 2: from Elvis to Quincy Jones, to the Beach Boys and 19 00:01:19,196 --> 00:01:22,036 Speaker 2: far beyond. And please be sure to check out his 20 00:01:22,196 --> 00:01:25,076 Speaker 2: wonderful new album out on Blue Note. The Sky will 21 00:01:25,116 --> 00:01:31,116 Speaker 2: be there tomorrow. This is Broken Record liner Notes for 22 00:01:31,196 --> 00:01:32,116 Speaker 2: the Digital Age. 23 00:01:32,236 --> 00:01:33,196 Speaker 1: I'm justin Mitchman. 24 00:01:38,076 --> 00:01:40,636 Speaker 2: Here's Don Was and myself from Amazon Music Studio one 25 00:01:40,756 --> 00:01:44,556 Speaker 2: twenty six in Culver City, California with Charles Lloyd. To 26 00:01:44,596 --> 00:01:46,436 Speaker 2: see the full video version of this episode, go to 27 00:01:46,436 --> 00:01:49,116 Speaker 2: YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast. 28 00:01:50,596 --> 00:01:54,876 Speaker 3: I would love to start at the beginning. I remember 29 00:01:54,876 --> 00:01:59,116 Speaker 3: one time you told me that you had like African 30 00:01:59,796 --> 00:02:04,396 Speaker 3: Choctaw Irish and Mongolian. 31 00:02:04,476 --> 00:02:07,356 Speaker 4: Little jerky in there too with the Chocto. Yeah, and 32 00:02:07,436 --> 00:02:10,556 Speaker 4: I don't bring all my guns out right away or 33 00:02:10,716 --> 00:02:16,796 Speaker 4: arrows into infinity. Yeah. Well what happened was, let's see, 34 00:02:16,956 --> 00:02:20,596 Speaker 4: a future slave ship came over here and brought some people. 35 00:02:20,716 --> 00:02:25,876 Speaker 4: But before my eldest were already here. Sally Sunflower white Cloud. 36 00:02:26,316 --> 00:02:28,916 Speaker 4: It was my great grandmother, and I have her songs. 37 00:02:29,556 --> 00:02:33,316 Speaker 4: And then on Mary Flowers side, that's on my grandfather's side, 38 00:02:33,396 --> 00:02:37,436 Speaker 4: Sally Sunflower white Cloud. On my mother's side there was 39 00:02:37,516 --> 00:02:42,076 Speaker 4: Mary Flowers who was married to Bud Maccombe from Ireland. 40 00:02:43,396 --> 00:02:49,836 Speaker 4: And I don't know a lot about the direct brothers 41 00:02:50,076 --> 00:02:53,316 Speaker 4: and the Mongolian I asked my grandmother, where did we 42 00:02:53,356 --> 00:02:57,676 Speaker 4: come from? And she said Mongolia. And then I looked 43 00:02:57,676 --> 00:03:00,236 Speaker 4: at a map and somebody told me the Barons Street. 44 00:03:00,436 --> 00:03:02,876 Speaker 4: They walked across the barren streets to get over here, 45 00:03:02,876 --> 00:03:06,356 Speaker 4: because there was a time when you could walk across. Okay, 46 00:03:07,196 --> 00:03:14,716 Speaker 4: So we go far back, Caw. But my great great 47 00:03:15,476 --> 00:03:21,476 Speaker 4: grandmother was Hagar right, And Dorothy knows my history because 48 00:03:21,516 --> 00:03:26,956 Speaker 4: she went down south Mississippi and did the serious digging 49 00:03:27,076 --> 00:03:32,076 Speaker 4: and went behind the counter and went into the archives. 50 00:03:33,196 --> 00:03:40,356 Speaker 4: The problem is that Hagar, this is deep. No one 51 00:03:40,476 --> 00:03:43,316 Speaker 4: responds to it, but I need to bring it out. 52 00:03:43,876 --> 00:03:46,596 Speaker 4: She was taking a ten years old from her parents 53 00:03:46,636 --> 00:03:51,756 Speaker 4: down in Mississippi by slave owner up in Balivard, Tennessee, 54 00:03:52,476 --> 00:03:57,716 Speaker 4: need him Ingram, and he proceeded to rape on her 55 00:03:58,116 --> 00:04:02,676 Speaker 4: ten year old girl. She's pedophile stuff. And at thirteen 56 00:04:03,796 --> 00:04:10,236 Speaker 4: she had my great grandfather, Ben Ingram Senior. And this 57 00:04:10,276 --> 00:04:13,116 Speaker 4: guy had the nerve when his daughter got married with 58 00:04:13,676 --> 00:04:20,716 Speaker 4: his white wife to give my great grandmother, great great 59 00:04:20,756 --> 00:04:26,316 Speaker 4: grandmother and her child Ben as a wedding gift to 60 00:04:26,436 --> 00:04:30,836 Speaker 4: his daughter. So, man, I got some serious beefs about 61 00:04:30,876 --> 00:04:33,756 Speaker 4: this stuff that's going on, and it's still going on, 62 00:04:34,356 --> 00:04:38,196 Speaker 4: and I'm kind of blowing fuses as a young man 63 00:04:38,236 --> 00:04:42,396 Speaker 4: at Blue Fuses. Now I can't afford to blow fuses. 64 00:04:42,436 --> 00:04:44,636 Speaker 4: So what I have to do now is to go 65 00:04:44,716 --> 00:04:48,596 Speaker 4: back on the south and make some music that can 66 00:04:48,636 --> 00:04:51,556 Speaker 4: heal the world. But that's naive because I thought I 67 00:04:51,636 --> 00:04:54,196 Speaker 4: was doing that when I was a young man, and 68 00:04:55,236 --> 00:05:00,396 Speaker 4: some people heard it. But in two thousand, Master Higgins, 69 00:05:00,396 --> 00:05:03,396 Speaker 4: Billy Higgins, said he wanted to come up to visit 70 00:05:03,516 --> 00:05:08,556 Speaker 4: us at our compound, and he wanted us to do 71 00:05:08,636 --> 00:05:13,636 Speaker 4: some work that was that he could only do with me. 72 00:05:14,836 --> 00:05:17,116 Speaker 4: So he brought all of his drums and all of 73 00:05:17,156 --> 00:05:23,916 Speaker 4: his instruments, guitars from Africa, from all that Moorys stuff, 74 00:05:24,436 --> 00:05:28,436 Speaker 4: and we began to go at it for about a week. 75 00:05:29,076 --> 00:05:33,196 Speaker 4: Dorothy made the wonderful veggies for us. At the time 76 00:05:33,236 --> 00:05:35,756 Speaker 4: he showed up, I'd been fasting for a couple of weeks, 77 00:05:36,476 --> 00:05:38,916 Speaker 4: and I told him that I was going to go 78 00:05:39,036 --> 00:05:42,316 Speaker 4: back into the forest and give it up again. And 79 00:05:42,796 --> 00:05:44,916 Speaker 4: he's two years older than me, and I met him 80 00:05:44,916 --> 00:05:49,276 Speaker 4: when I first came out here in fifty six at 81 00:05:49,276 --> 00:05:53,276 Speaker 4: a jam session where he was there and Ornett was there, 82 00:05:54,396 --> 00:06:00,756 Speaker 4: and he and I had a bonding instantly. Ornett came 83 00:06:00,836 --> 00:06:05,596 Speaker 4: to this jam session and he played. But I was 84 00:06:05,716 --> 00:06:08,636 Speaker 4: new in town, and there's a place called the Stadium 85 00:06:08,636 --> 00:06:12,756 Speaker 4: Club over by USC. Now that I look back on USC, men, 86 00:06:12,916 --> 00:06:16,996 Speaker 4: there's some stuff that's very disturbing to me that I 87 00:06:19,556 --> 00:06:22,356 Speaker 4: had to do my own personal research on. I got 88 00:06:22,356 --> 00:06:25,516 Speaker 4: so many balls in the air. But anyway, so Arnett 89 00:06:26,916 --> 00:06:29,876 Speaker 4: was let up on the stage and they were playing 90 00:06:30,356 --> 00:06:32,316 Speaker 4: what is this thing called Love? So what on that 91 00:06:32,436 --> 00:06:36,436 Speaker 4: play was the Etymology of Love? And they invited him 92 00:06:36,436 --> 00:06:42,836 Speaker 4: off the bandstand because he wasn't adhering to just running 93 00:06:42,836 --> 00:06:47,196 Speaker 4: the changes. He was talking about the real deal and 94 00:06:47,276 --> 00:06:51,116 Speaker 4: I heard it and I love something about it. He 95 00:06:51,196 --> 00:06:53,876 Speaker 4: had to suspend us on and he had this homemade 96 00:06:53,876 --> 00:06:57,476 Speaker 4: outfit that was very special. We used to go to 97 00:06:57,556 --> 00:06:59,916 Speaker 4: a tail in Memphis called Paul the Tail, and there 98 00:06:59,956 --> 00:07:05,236 Speaker 4: was another one called Collettes. They were both on Beale Street. 99 00:07:05,396 --> 00:07:08,636 Speaker 4: So I had my stuff that I had to change 100 00:07:08,716 --> 00:07:11,116 Speaker 4: up real soon. I had twenty five inch knees and 101 00:07:11,196 --> 00:07:15,596 Speaker 4: eighteen inch bottom. I remember that, you know specific about that. 102 00:07:16,036 --> 00:07:17,916 Speaker 4: But when I got out here, they were wearing those 103 00:07:17,956 --> 00:07:22,196 Speaker 4: little uh yeah, she knows, okay, So my stuff was 104 00:07:22,596 --> 00:07:28,236 Speaker 4: too out for school. So I had to find a 105 00:07:28,236 --> 00:07:34,916 Speaker 4: way to make my stuff work anyway, because I was 106 00:07:34,956 --> 00:07:37,876 Speaker 4: in it, but I wasn't of it. And I had 107 00:07:38,116 --> 00:07:40,716 Speaker 4: some songs to sing. And when I was a little boy, 108 00:07:40,836 --> 00:07:44,556 Speaker 4: Duke Ellington and Johnny Hodges, those people stayed at our 109 00:07:44,556 --> 00:07:47,316 Speaker 4: house because we had a large house and they weren't 110 00:07:47,316 --> 00:07:50,916 Speaker 4: adequate hotels for these musicians. So the lady from the 111 00:07:50,916 --> 00:07:54,596 Speaker 4: theater called my mother and said, you know, can you 112 00:07:54,916 --> 00:07:57,356 Speaker 4: help us out and accommodate some quality of people. 113 00:07:57,996 --> 00:07:59,636 Speaker 3: So Duke Ellington stayed at your house. 114 00:07:59,756 --> 00:08:04,876 Speaker 4: Yes, so did Lionel Hampton, so did special various people. 115 00:08:04,916 --> 00:08:07,276 Speaker 4: I met Quincy Jones during that period. He was playing 116 00:08:07,316 --> 00:08:12,676 Speaker 4: trumpet with Loonel Hampton. Quincy was he was five years 117 00:08:12,676 --> 00:08:15,196 Speaker 4: older than myself. But he was a little bitty, little 118 00:08:15,236 --> 00:08:17,716 Speaker 4: skinny guy and I was a little bitty, little skinny guy. 119 00:08:18,036 --> 00:08:22,236 Speaker 4: And I was about nine and so he would have 120 00:08:22,276 --> 00:08:27,796 Speaker 4: been five years he was about sixteen. Yeah, And so 121 00:08:28,076 --> 00:08:31,396 Speaker 4: we had a simpatico and when I came to California, 122 00:08:31,476 --> 00:08:34,876 Speaker 4: he would turn people on to me to do sessions 123 00:08:34,916 --> 00:08:37,276 Speaker 4: and stuff. You know, he was like it in those 124 00:08:37,396 --> 00:08:41,596 Speaker 4: days for the jazz community. He was like networker and 125 00:08:41,636 --> 00:08:44,316 Speaker 4: he knew, he knew where stuff was, and people would 126 00:08:44,316 --> 00:08:47,076 Speaker 4: call me from Capitol your company in different companies, and 127 00:08:47,076 --> 00:08:49,396 Speaker 4: I'd go do sessions. That was very special, and I 128 00:08:49,476 --> 00:08:52,076 Speaker 4: always remember that, and I think he's the one who 129 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:57,556 Speaker 4: recommended me to Cannonball Attilie when you Latiith left. That 130 00:08:57,676 --> 00:09:01,476 Speaker 4: was in sixty four and Joe Sabeu was in that band, 131 00:09:01,556 --> 00:09:05,756 Speaker 4: Sam Jones, Lewis Hayes and Cannon's brother Nat. So I 132 00:09:05,756 --> 00:09:08,276 Speaker 4: played with that sex Step for going on two years. 133 00:09:09,316 --> 00:09:12,636 Speaker 4: And then I had a b in my bonnet that 134 00:09:12,676 --> 00:09:17,236 Speaker 4: I need to express Eibo, my stuff, personal music that 135 00:09:17,316 --> 00:09:19,876 Speaker 4: I had to make because when I was with Chico, 136 00:09:20,316 --> 00:09:23,916 Speaker 4: I had replaced Eric Dolphy Chico Hamilton, Sorry, thank you. 137 00:09:24,596 --> 00:09:28,156 Speaker 4: And what happened was that Chico made me music director 138 00:09:28,756 --> 00:09:30,556 Speaker 4: and so I'd written all this music when I was 139 00:09:30,596 --> 00:09:32,796 Speaker 4: a canniball. He said we'll be playing we'll play your 140 00:09:32,876 --> 00:09:36,076 Speaker 4: music too. But he also had he was a racking 141 00:09:36,196 --> 00:09:38,036 Speaker 4: tour and stuff, you know, and he was good at 142 00:09:38,076 --> 00:09:40,716 Speaker 4: the microphone and handling people and stuff like that. In 143 00:09:40,836 --> 00:09:44,036 Speaker 4: cordiality anyway, So I was there for a couple of years. 144 00:09:44,316 --> 00:09:46,716 Speaker 4: Then when I started my own band, when I was 145 00:09:46,756 --> 00:09:49,756 Speaker 4: a canniballist Keith Jarrett had heard me in Boston. He 146 00:09:49,836 --> 00:09:53,036 Speaker 4: was going to school at Berkeley and he was playing 147 00:09:53,276 --> 00:09:56,956 Speaker 4: upstairs and we were playing downstairs at he said, I 148 00:09:56,996 --> 00:09:58,356 Speaker 4: want to play with you. I said, well, you know, 149 00:09:58,396 --> 00:10:00,716 Speaker 4: when the time comes, you know, I'll let you know. 150 00:10:01,476 --> 00:10:05,476 Speaker 4: And then when the time came, Goborzabo, who had been 151 00:10:05,476 --> 00:10:07,676 Speaker 4: playing with me with Chico, I called him, and Pete 152 00:10:07,756 --> 00:10:12,756 Speaker 4: Larocca and oh Alvert Stenson wonderful basis that people don't 153 00:10:12,756 --> 00:10:15,556 Speaker 4: know because he left early too. He left in his twenties, 154 00:10:15,676 --> 00:10:20,956 Speaker 4: early twenties, around that age that guys leave town. But 155 00:10:21,076 --> 00:10:23,516 Speaker 4: he was even younger than that, and he and Bobby 156 00:10:23,596 --> 00:10:27,596 Speaker 4: Hutcheson had grown up in Pasadena and he was a 157 00:10:27,676 --> 00:10:31,796 Speaker 4: genius in Scott LaFaro and Charlie Hayden were the young Lions. 158 00:10:32,156 --> 00:10:39,836 Speaker 4: But sparky Alvert Stenson had a strong sound, real woody, 159 00:10:40,076 --> 00:10:43,316 Speaker 4: you know, and he loved wilbur Ware and so he 160 00:10:43,396 --> 00:10:44,996 Speaker 4: came from there anyway. 161 00:10:45,116 --> 00:10:47,396 Speaker 3: So, yeah, there's so many places I want to go 162 00:10:47,476 --> 00:10:50,876 Speaker 3: back to. Yeah, so you talked about Higgins coming. 163 00:10:51,636 --> 00:10:54,716 Speaker 4: Yeah, Higgins was playing that jam session to everybody loved 164 00:10:54,716 --> 00:10:58,076 Speaker 4: Billy Higgins because no matter how you played behind the beat, 165 00:10:58,116 --> 00:11:00,476 Speaker 4: on the beat, whatever he could make you a tailor 166 00:11:00,516 --> 00:11:04,316 Speaker 4: made suit, because that's that's what he fixed your stuff 167 00:11:04,396 --> 00:11:07,276 Speaker 4: up right up. You know. They finally let me play 168 00:11:07,316 --> 00:11:09,956 Speaker 4: at the end of the session because I'm young kids 169 00:11:09,956 --> 00:11:12,556 Speaker 4: sitting over there with an alto and that was my 170 00:11:12,636 --> 00:11:16,676 Speaker 4: instrument that started off. And finally let me on the 171 00:11:16,676 --> 00:11:19,236 Speaker 4: band stand. But it was strange because they didn't invited 172 00:11:19,316 --> 00:11:23,476 Speaker 4: on that off prior set. But On that comes up 173 00:11:23,516 --> 00:11:27,316 Speaker 4: to me with his splendid outfit that he had made 174 00:11:27,396 --> 00:11:29,996 Speaker 4: it home, and he said, you know, you can really 175 00:11:30,036 --> 00:11:32,556 Speaker 4: play the saxophone, but that don't have a lot to 176 00:11:32,596 --> 00:11:35,916 Speaker 4: do with music. And so I said, wow, you know, 177 00:11:35,996 --> 00:11:40,556 Speaker 4: I'd been in Memphis with George Coleman and Hank Craft 178 00:11:40,556 --> 00:11:45,916 Speaker 4: and Frank Strojan Booker, Little my Master and all the 179 00:11:45,956 --> 00:11:49,276 Speaker 4: cats in Memphis and there it was a rich tradition. 180 00:11:49,356 --> 00:11:52,436 Speaker 4: Phineas Newborn was our js Bock and he was our 181 00:11:52,476 --> 00:11:59,036 Speaker 4: hero in Memphis and he always was extremely special by On. 182 00:11:59,236 --> 00:12:03,276 Speaker 4: That's saying that he didn't say it with hostility. It 183 00:12:03,316 --> 00:12:05,516 Speaker 4: wasn't harsh. It was you know where he talks. Yeah, 184 00:12:05,596 --> 00:12:08,436 Speaker 4: you can't ready place apo. They don't have a lot 185 00:12:08,476 --> 00:12:12,516 Speaker 4: to do with me, so it was sweet. So somehow 186 00:12:13,796 --> 00:12:18,076 Speaker 4: he and I lived several blocks from each other. He 187 00:12:18,116 --> 00:12:20,276 Speaker 4: would come over to my house, I'd go to his house, 188 00:12:20,316 --> 00:12:24,356 Speaker 4: and we began to go at it, you know, with 189 00:12:24,436 --> 00:12:29,436 Speaker 4: the music. And I was coming from a lot of 190 00:12:30,396 --> 00:12:35,076 Speaker 4: modern tradition. It's like the old guys in Memphis said 191 00:12:35,116 --> 00:12:37,076 Speaker 4: to me, you know you playing all those notes because 192 00:12:37,076 --> 00:12:40,036 Speaker 4: i'd heard bird. You know, so you're playing all those notes, 193 00:12:40,076 --> 00:12:45,276 Speaker 4: but they don't mean anything without a beautiful sound. So 194 00:12:46,076 --> 00:12:49,996 Speaker 4: I started practicing long tones. Phineas Newborn hurt me on 195 00:12:50,036 --> 00:12:53,996 Speaker 4: an amateur show and I won first prize. I was 196 00:12:54,036 --> 00:12:56,796 Speaker 4: about nine or ten, and he said, you need lessons bad. 197 00:12:56,956 --> 00:12:59,556 Speaker 4: When I walked into the wings, he takes me around 198 00:12:59,556 --> 00:13:02,036 Speaker 4: the corner on Beal Street to Irving Reason, a great 199 00:13:02,076 --> 00:13:05,516 Speaker 4: alto player, and left me say you need lessons. And 200 00:13:05,756 --> 00:13:09,556 Speaker 4: so I didn't get to get rich before I learned 201 00:13:09,556 --> 00:13:12,116 Speaker 4: how to play. I had to focus on the music, 202 00:13:12,316 --> 00:13:16,036 Speaker 4: and so Irving was great for me. Phineas kept kept 203 00:13:16,076 --> 00:13:18,476 Speaker 4: on top of me, and then maybe I was twelve 204 00:13:18,556 --> 00:13:20,876 Speaker 4: or thirteen, he put me in band with his brother 205 00:13:20,956 --> 00:13:24,436 Speaker 4: Calvin and in his father's band, playing at the plantation 206 00:13:24,556 --> 00:13:28,276 Speaker 4: in Over across the river. In West Memphis, Arkansas. So 207 00:13:28,316 --> 00:13:31,756 Speaker 4: we played this several nights a week, seven nights, six seven, 208 00:13:32,516 --> 00:13:36,436 Speaker 4: and then I had gigs with all those blues guys too, 209 00:13:36,676 --> 00:13:40,356 Speaker 4: and my favorite was Howling Wolf, Junior Parker, Johnny A's 210 00:13:40,556 --> 00:13:46,876 Speaker 4: BB King, Roscoe Gordon, on and on anyway, So I 211 00:13:46,916 --> 00:13:51,476 Speaker 4: had lots of deep experiences with those blues guys because 212 00:13:51,516 --> 00:13:54,516 Speaker 4: they could reach the back of the hall or the 213 00:13:54,676 --> 00:13:58,196 Speaker 4: schoolhouse or wherever we were playing, and they were communicators, 214 00:13:58,236 --> 00:14:02,116 Speaker 4: you know. And I somehow got infected by that because 215 00:14:02,156 --> 00:14:06,196 Speaker 4: I was moved by how women would throw their panties 216 00:14:06,236 --> 00:14:09,556 Speaker 4: on the stage and do stuff of surrender, do you know, 217 00:14:09,596 --> 00:14:11,756 Speaker 4: without And I'm a little kid, you know, I'm not 218 00:14:12,036 --> 00:14:16,076 Speaker 4: ready for that lane yet, but I saw something in 219 00:14:16,116 --> 00:14:20,196 Speaker 4: there that was frightening and intriguing and interesting, you know. 220 00:14:20,356 --> 00:14:23,636 Speaker 4: So I didn't have the chops yet for any of that. 221 00:14:24,316 --> 00:14:26,676 Speaker 1: But uh was Hubert someone with Wolf? 222 00:14:27,156 --> 00:14:30,276 Speaker 4: That different cast? Play with Wolf? You know. 223 00:14:31,276 --> 00:14:32,516 Speaker 1: It's like talking to Quincy Jones. 224 00:14:34,116 --> 00:14:38,196 Speaker 4: You've done everything, no, no, but Quincy well, he's a 225 00:14:38,196 --> 00:14:41,196 Speaker 4: special guy. I don't know him now, you know. I'm 226 00:14:41,196 --> 00:14:42,996 Speaker 4: sure if we saw each other, Well, no, I do. 227 00:14:43,116 --> 00:14:46,356 Speaker 4: I shouldn't talk like that, you know. I was playing 228 00:14:46,356 --> 00:14:49,596 Speaker 4: at montro a few years ago and he came backstage. 229 00:14:49,636 --> 00:14:51,556 Speaker 4: He was pulling on my coat when I walked near 230 00:14:51,556 --> 00:14:56,316 Speaker 4: the near the edge of the stage, and he remembered 231 00:14:56,316 --> 00:15:00,836 Speaker 4: you from uh from oh well, no, throughout he's remembered. 232 00:15:01,996 --> 00:15:06,716 Speaker 4: We're cordial, you know, and it's just that, Uh. I've 233 00:15:06,716 --> 00:15:12,196 Speaker 4: been drunk with this music. And what my idea was 234 00:15:12,196 --> 00:15:15,756 Speaker 4: was to change the world with the beauty of music. 235 00:15:16,076 --> 00:15:19,716 Speaker 4: And I'm still at it. But I went away for 236 00:15:19,756 --> 00:15:22,316 Speaker 4: a while because I blew fuses as a young man, 237 00:15:22,436 --> 00:15:27,316 Speaker 4: because the setup was so unfair and so gross that 238 00:15:28,396 --> 00:15:30,836 Speaker 4: you know, it didn't work for me, and I began 239 00:15:30,876 --> 00:15:33,116 Speaker 4: to medicate myself too, you know. So I had a 240 00:15:33,116 --> 00:15:36,356 Speaker 4: lot of stuff I had to deal with. But when 241 00:15:36,356 --> 00:15:38,716 Speaker 4: I first got to New York, I checked into the 242 00:15:38,716 --> 00:15:41,916 Speaker 4: Alvin Hotel where Prais had lived, and Prais died there. 243 00:15:42,596 --> 00:15:47,916 Speaker 4: And that's too young, correct, And that's too young, Yes, 244 00:15:48,316 --> 00:15:52,436 Speaker 4: my hero. I've gone around the world in a plane, 245 00:15:52,476 --> 00:15:55,276 Speaker 4: but I've come back to Prais because he was the 246 00:15:55,316 --> 00:15:58,036 Speaker 4: poet of the music. That's why when you hear this 247 00:15:58,116 --> 00:16:02,716 Speaker 4: new record, don that we made it Prais's He came 248 00:16:02,756 --> 00:16:08,036 Speaker 4: and visited me, you know. And Pras died on March fifteenth, 249 00:16:08,196 --> 00:16:13,436 Speaker 4: nineteen fifty nine, I believe, and I just turned twenty one. 250 00:16:14,356 --> 00:16:17,756 Speaker 4: Whenever I turned twenty one. The chronology may elude me, 251 00:16:18,276 --> 00:16:23,756 Speaker 4: but I think I have some mystical notion that Pres said, Okay, 252 00:16:24,316 --> 00:16:26,876 Speaker 4: I'm leaving town, but let's see what you can do 253 00:16:26,956 --> 00:16:31,196 Speaker 4: with this stuff. So I have notions like that, not 254 00:16:31,556 --> 00:16:33,636 Speaker 4: illusions of grand shurt. I got that when I was 255 00:16:33,636 --> 00:16:36,196 Speaker 4: a little kid, but Phineas nipped that in the bud. 256 00:16:36,836 --> 00:16:42,276 Speaker 4: But anyway, I'm just I'm a lone man on the mountain, 257 00:16:42,636 --> 00:16:46,076 Speaker 4: as you know, and I'm trying to sing this song. 258 00:16:46,956 --> 00:16:50,316 Speaker 4: And I told Master Higgins when he came up at 259 00:16:50,356 --> 00:16:54,036 Speaker 4: that time in two thousand, that I was getting ready 260 00:16:54,076 --> 00:16:56,316 Speaker 4: to go back into the forest. You know, I've been 261 00:16:56,356 --> 00:16:59,636 Speaker 4: in Big Sur for a decade or more. And he said, well, 262 00:16:59,996 --> 00:17:03,876 Speaker 4: I said, nobody cares about this music, and he said, 263 00:17:03,996 --> 00:17:07,316 Speaker 4: fuck them, we care. It was such a strong rebuke. 264 00:17:07,556 --> 00:17:12,316 Speaker 4: And Master Higgins was always He's very special, as I 265 00:17:12,356 --> 00:17:15,396 Speaker 4: just told you, and everybody wanted Billy to play with him. 266 00:17:15,636 --> 00:17:20,636 Speaker 4: You know, you know that Recordly Morgan made Sidewinder, Well, 267 00:17:21,556 --> 00:17:24,996 Speaker 4: he and Billy was on that record. Along with Barry Harris, 268 00:17:25,036 --> 00:17:29,076 Speaker 4: and I think Higgins told me something also almost had 269 00:17:29,116 --> 00:17:31,916 Speaker 4: a profound effect on me, like my great great grandmother. 270 00:17:32,036 --> 00:17:34,316 Speaker 4: It was like they were up in Harlem looking for 271 00:17:34,356 --> 00:17:37,076 Speaker 4: the man because they needed their medicine and they were 272 00:17:37,076 --> 00:17:41,476 Speaker 4: in bad shape, and they went to every bar in 273 00:17:41,596 --> 00:17:46,396 Speaker 4: Harlem and Sidewinder was playing on the box everywhere. It 274 00:17:46,516 --> 00:17:51,596 Speaker 4: was the fuel. It was lifting up the The whole 275 00:17:51,676 --> 00:17:54,596 Speaker 4: darm of the planet was being held up by that song. 276 00:17:55,516 --> 00:17:59,756 Speaker 4: So what happened was that they couldn't find the man. 277 00:17:59,876 --> 00:18:04,196 Speaker 4: He wasn't in any bar. And they finally found him 278 00:18:04,316 --> 00:18:06,756 Speaker 4: and he was sitting there very areadype, you know, with 279 00:18:06,876 --> 00:18:12,156 Speaker 4: his vaunts and stuff, and they said we need our mens, 280 00:18:12,596 --> 00:18:15,396 Speaker 4: and he said, They said, but we're two dollars short. 281 00:18:16,636 --> 00:18:19,716 Speaker 4: And he looked at them and he said, I'm sorry, 282 00:18:19,756 --> 00:18:23,996 Speaker 4: I can't help you guys, you know. And after these 283 00:18:24,036 --> 00:18:29,076 Speaker 4: guys it lit up the planet with Sideline. He can't 284 00:18:29,116 --> 00:18:33,796 Speaker 4: help them, and you know, so there's a lot of injustice, 285 00:18:35,276 --> 00:18:40,036 Speaker 4: you know, personal that not to mention the foulness of 286 00:18:41,236 --> 00:18:43,956 Speaker 4: man's inhumanity to the man and throwing rocks at each 287 00:18:43,996 --> 00:18:47,276 Speaker 4: other for thousands of years, and this stuff has been 288 00:18:47,356 --> 00:18:50,396 Speaker 4: bothering me lately, and I've got to shake it off 289 00:18:50,436 --> 00:18:53,116 Speaker 4: because this morning it hit me real hard. You know. 290 00:18:54,756 --> 00:18:58,436 Speaker 4: I have friends all around the world, and folks aren't 291 00:18:58,436 --> 00:19:02,916 Speaker 4: being treated right, you know, and these giant politicians they've 292 00:19:02,916 --> 00:19:06,876 Speaker 4: pad their pockets and stuff. But we need sages to 293 00:19:06,916 --> 00:19:12,116 Speaker 4: help humanity, you know. So it's so back to my song. 294 00:19:12,876 --> 00:19:15,956 Speaker 4: I'm making this music that the heel of planet. So 295 00:19:16,076 --> 00:19:21,196 Speaker 4: I'm and I keep coming up short, you know, and 296 00:19:21,276 --> 00:19:24,796 Speaker 4: it's troubling to my nervous system to be kind candid 297 00:19:24,876 --> 00:19:28,076 Speaker 4: with you. I can't tell you something, Charles Sure. 298 00:19:28,276 --> 00:19:30,756 Speaker 3: I heard you play for the first time in the 299 00:19:30,796 --> 00:19:35,796 Speaker 3: mid sixties. I saw you play live, oh you fourteen fifteen, 300 00:19:38,116 --> 00:19:45,076 Speaker 3: and your music impacted my life so tremendously. So you 301 00:19:45,876 --> 00:19:49,276 Speaker 3: may not see the full impact. Yeah, yeah, I know. 302 00:19:49,556 --> 00:19:55,756 Speaker 3: Maybe the whole society didn't change, but on a personal level, 303 00:19:55,956 --> 00:19:59,516 Speaker 3: just the tone of your instrument. That's why the tone 304 00:19:59,556 --> 00:20:03,116 Speaker 3: of your instrument is one of the constants in my life, 305 00:20:03,596 --> 00:20:07,796 Speaker 3: you know, in my adult life, and it has such 306 00:20:07,916 --> 00:20:12,996 Speaker 3: soothing and healing properties. You may not see that that 307 00:20:13,236 --> 00:20:16,236 Speaker 3: part of it that may not turn up at a concert, 308 00:20:16,436 --> 00:20:21,156 Speaker 3: that certainly won't turn up in a newspaper, but enter 309 00:20:23,316 --> 00:20:26,836 Speaker 3: joy and peacefulness from that. And I'm just one person. 310 00:20:26,916 --> 00:20:27,076 Speaker 4: Man. 311 00:20:27,316 --> 00:20:29,756 Speaker 3: I know you sold a million copies of forest Flower. 312 00:20:30,436 --> 00:20:36,396 Speaker 4: Thank you. I appreciate that. I think I'm probably here 313 00:20:37,316 --> 00:20:44,676 Speaker 4: because of you, because the whole recording industry was run 314 00:20:44,716 --> 00:20:47,436 Speaker 4: like a plantation system as far as I could see 315 00:20:47,476 --> 00:20:48,996 Speaker 4: in my lifetime early on. 316 00:20:50,116 --> 00:20:52,396 Speaker 2: We'll be right back with more from Charles Lloyd after 317 00:20:52,436 --> 00:20:59,516 Speaker 2: the break. We're back with Charles Lloyd in conversation with 318 00:20:59,636 --> 00:21:00,756 Speaker 2: Don was and me. 319 00:21:02,156 --> 00:21:06,356 Speaker 4: Well, the thing is that I was reading something the 320 00:21:06,396 --> 00:21:10,636 Speaker 4: other day and it told me that JA Music sells 321 00:21:10,676 --> 00:21:14,636 Speaker 4: two of the records sales. I don't want to believe that. 322 00:21:14,876 --> 00:21:17,596 Speaker 4: Accept that. It's kind of like I would wonder why 323 00:21:18,676 --> 00:21:23,236 Speaker 4: people don't vote to have somebody who could have more 324 00:21:23,316 --> 00:21:27,276 Speaker 4: caring at least because it's it's all corrupt. But what 325 00:21:27,316 --> 00:21:30,516 Speaker 4: I'm saying is that it hurts me. You're gonna have 326 00:21:30,516 --> 00:21:34,476 Speaker 4: to edit this because I'm sure not much of it's useful. 327 00:21:35,036 --> 00:21:41,916 Speaker 3: But it's beautiful, man, It's like a solo. Well you did, ah, The. 328 00:21:41,796 --> 00:21:43,076 Speaker 1: Thing is beautiful. 329 00:21:43,636 --> 00:21:47,116 Speaker 4: The thing is that I'm troubled by the condition of 330 00:21:47,156 --> 00:21:50,876 Speaker 4: the condition. And you know, Dorothy going down south with 331 00:21:50,956 --> 00:21:54,196 Speaker 4: my cousin Selene, and they going back there. It's a 332 00:21:54,196 --> 00:21:58,436 Speaker 4: funny thing Dorothy told me. When she and my cousin 333 00:21:59,476 --> 00:22:03,916 Speaker 4: went to the archives or where the record County Hall 334 00:22:03,956 --> 00:22:06,356 Speaker 4: where the records are kept, they said they want to 335 00:22:06,396 --> 00:22:13,636 Speaker 4: look into the records, and oh they're here, you know, yeah, 336 00:22:13,716 --> 00:22:16,356 Speaker 4: because they knew they were dirty, and they said, oh, 337 00:22:16,396 --> 00:22:19,756 Speaker 4: they've come to see the records. And so she looked 338 00:22:19,836 --> 00:22:24,476 Speaker 4: up Sally Sunflower, White Cloud and all these indigenous folks 339 00:22:23,956 --> 00:22:30,996 Speaker 4: that I have some blood with, and I love all people. 340 00:22:31,156 --> 00:22:35,596 Speaker 4: You know. When I came out here to Cali, I 341 00:22:35,636 --> 00:22:39,236 Speaker 4: was about to tell you about my USC experience, and 342 00:22:39,596 --> 00:22:42,156 Speaker 4: I got upset with myself. The other day at some 343 00:22:42,316 --> 00:22:47,636 Speaker 4: of my research. There's this guy named Rufus von Kleinschmidt 344 00:22:48,076 --> 00:22:52,036 Speaker 4: who was the He had been a president of USC, 345 00:22:52,116 --> 00:22:55,036 Speaker 4: I think from twenty one to forty six or somewhere 346 00:22:55,076 --> 00:22:59,996 Speaker 4: in the twenty fourth and he now when I went 347 00:23:00,036 --> 00:23:04,356 Speaker 4: to SC I started in fifty six and there was 348 00:23:04,396 --> 00:23:08,036 Speaker 4: a genius in the dorm. His name was Milton Oldham 349 00:23:08,556 --> 00:23:12,596 Speaker 4: and he was from Asbury Park, New Jersey, and he 350 00:23:12,716 --> 00:23:14,956 Speaker 4: was so brilliant. He was like lit up. You know, 351 00:23:14,956 --> 00:23:18,916 Speaker 4: it's a little guy, you know, about five feet two 352 00:23:19,036 --> 00:23:22,116 Speaker 4: or three. But he was like a light bulb, you know, 353 00:23:22,156 --> 00:23:24,556 Speaker 4: and he would do everybody's homework and help everybody in 354 00:23:24,556 --> 00:23:31,636 Speaker 4: the dorm. I got to the dorm Anias Hall in 355 00:23:31,676 --> 00:23:34,036 Speaker 4: the summer of fifty six because I was run out 356 00:23:34,036 --> 00:23:37,716 Speaker 4: of town. I was playing in West Memphis with Willie Mitchell, 357 00:23:38,796 --> 00:23:41,076 Speaker 4: and those girls liked us a lot. It was a 358 00:23:41,116 --> 00:23:47,156 Speaker 4: white dance hall called Danny's, and we'd have to run 359 00:23:47,196 --> 00:23:52,276 Speaker 4: back across the bridge and Willie's Pontiac car whatever it 360 00:23:52,436 --> 00:23:54,996 Speaker 4: was doing one hundred and twenty whatever it would do, 361 00:23:55,436 --> 00:23:58,036 Speaker 4: because we were always being chased and stuff, you know. 362 00:23:58,956 --> 00:24:06,116 Speaker 4: And my stepfather sold cars and in the black part 363 00:24:06,156 --> 00:24:09,476 Speaker 4: of the dealership, you know, he would get referred girls 364 00:24:09,556 --> 00:24:11,956 Speaker 4: and stuff, and you take care of the guys, you know, 365 00:24:12,036 --> 00:24:14,956 Speaker 4: with some change, you know. And somebody called him from 366 00:24:14,956 --> 00:24:17,956 Speaker 4: the police station and said they're coming to rest your 367 00:24:17,996 --> 00:24:21,396 Speaker 4: son tomorrow night, you know, because they've been pooling around 368 00:24:21,396 --> 00:24:25,956 Speaker 4: with those girls. And so when when he goes to 369 00:24:26,036 --> 00:24:29,356 Speaker 4: work tomorrow night, just want to let you know he's 370 00:24:29,396 --> 00:24:33,156 Speaker 4: on the list, which point my mother said, no, he's not. 371 00:24:34,196 --> 00:24:39,556 Speaker 4: And my stepfather also worked on the railroad, pulling forward 372 00:24:39,596 --> 00:24:43,716 Speaker 4: this stuff, so he put me in a first class 373 00:24:45,876 --> 00:24:48,956 Speaker 4: drawing room, a on the plane, on the on the train, 374 00:24:49,076 --> 00:24:52,316 Speaker 4: and took me across the country. That's how you ended 375 00:24:52,396 --> 00:24:54,556 Speaker 4: up it in La I got there in the summer. 376 00:24:54,596 --> 00:24:57,036 Speaker 4: I was supposed to start in the in the ball 377 00:24:57,836 --> 00:25:01,156 Speaker 4: but when I got there, i'd all had a lot 378 00:25:01,196 --> 00:25:07,916 Speaker 4: of solicitations from fraternities offering me to take residents there 379 00:25:08,356 --> 00:25:11,636 Speaker 4: for summer because they would collect bread. You know, they 380 00:25:11,716 --> 00:25:13,796 Speaker 4: have some tenants in the house, you know, till the 381 00:25:13,796 --> 00:25:17,436 Speaker 4: boys get back. So and then I told some guys 382 00:25:17,436 --> 00:25:20,756 Speaker 4: in the dorm that all those returnities had been trying 383 00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:29,076 Speaker 4: to send me solicitations. They laughed. I didn't quite understand. 384 00:25:29,636 --> 00:25:32,796 Speaker 4: When I checked into the dorm, it was summertime. There 385 00:25:32,796 --> 00:25:35,516 Speaker 4: were no people of color there. So what they did 386 00:25:35,676 --> 00:25:39,876 Speaker 4: was they put me with a Hawaiian you did, Ken Purdle, 387 00:25:40,516 --> 00:25:43,156 Speaker 4: and his mother was Hawaii and his father was a 388 00:25:43,196 --> 00:25:46,276 Speaker 4: Howlly from England or something. You know. This guy later 389 00:25:46,276 --> 00:25:49,276 Speaker 4: committed suicide. He joined one of those fraternities. But what 390 00:25:49,436 --> 00:25:53,996 Speaker 4: happened was it backfired on him because he couldn't go 391 00:25:54,196 --> 00:25:58,436 Speaker 4: fully with the program. And so when you. 392 00:25:57,916 --> 00:26:01,356 Speaker 1: You couldn't shake not being fully white, you couldn't shake 393 00:26:01,436 --> 00:26:02,636 Speaker 1: not being fully white. 394 00:26:02,396 --> 00:26:06,316 Speaker 4: And somewhere in there because it was a very racist 395 00:26:06,316 --> 00:26:09,316 Speaker 4: time in the fifties. It still is, you know, it 396 00:26:09,396 --> 00:26:13,476 Speaker 4: was so overt. Then we're getting back to vun Kleinschmidt, 397 00:26:13,556 --> 00:26:16,796 Speaker 4: Rufus vun Clinschmidt. Whenever I've told people about him, so 398 00:26:16,956 --> 00:26:19,916 Speaker 4: you have to be careful because there's some stuff out 399 00:26:19,916 --> 00:26:24,276 Speaker 4: there protecting him. No one has ever taken that in 400 00:26:24,356 --> 00:26:27,476 Speaker 4: an interview for me, and I often wondered why, so 401 00:26:27,556 --> 00:26:29,116 Speaker 4: I said, I'm going to look up. I don't know 402 00:26:29,156 --> 00:26:33,276 Speaker 4: why I didn't do it. Earlier. Milton Oldham was in 403 00:26:33,356 --> 00:26:37,396 Speaker 4: a club called the Squires and they and they're going 404 00:26:37,476 --> 00:26:41,756 Speaker 4: to have a parade for the alumni, and so the 405 00:26:41,796 --> 00:26:46,276 Speaker 4: alumni rufus unclimbed and has to preview the parade to 406 00:26:46,316 --> 00:26:50,956 Speaker 4: see how's going. And when he saw Milton in the parade, 407 00:26:51,356 --> 00:26:55,076 Speaker 4: he said, no, can't happen. So the alumni, we don't. 408 00:26:55,476 --> 00:26:57,876 Speaker 4: And then I came to find out that he was 409 00:26:57,916 --> 00:27:01,316 Speaker 4: a Nazi and he'd gone over there and fraternized with 410 00:27:01,396 --> 00:27:03,956 Speaker 4: Hitling all those guys and stuff and during and he 411 00:27:04,076 --> 00:27:07,236 Speaker 4: denied it and kind of liked that, but and so 412 00:27:07,476 --> 00:27:11,356 Speaker 4: somehow somebody would bring it up and he would, so, yeah, 413 00:27:11,356 --> 00:27:15,196 Speaker 4: we're gonna do something about that. Never did anything about anything. 414 00:27:15,836 --> 00:27:18,236 Speaker 4: And so the reason I'm telling you this now you 415 00:27:18,236 --> 00:27:20,356 Speaker 4: don't have to use this for the interview, but somebody 416 00:27:20,356 --> 00:27:25,116 Speaker 4: in has to know what's going on. And so I'm 417 00:27:25,196 --> 00:27:29,116 Speaker 4: studying all this stuff. And then lo and behold, I 418 00:27:29,236 --> 00:27:33,316 Speaker 4: read I did a lot of research that they've taken 419 00:27:33,356 --> 00:27:37,276 Speaker 4: his name. He af After he was the president for 420 00:27:37,356 --> 00:27:40,636 Speaker 4: those ten twenty years, he became what do you call 421 00:27:40,676 --> 00:27:45,436 Speaker 4: it in lawyer? Lawyer and they call it a counsel. 422 00:27:45,836 --> 00:27:49,996 Speaker 4: He's upstairs, he's controlling the dance, you know. So he 423 00:27:50,756 --> 00:27:53,956 Speaker 4: wouldn't let Milton. He said, no, Milton, can't. Can't march, 424 00:27:54,036 --> 00:27:57,316 Speaker 4: you know, with the Squires. And that was very hurtful 425 00:27:58,196 --> 00:28:03,316 Speaker 4: because Milton was a pure soul and he wasn't even 426 00:28:03,356 --> 00:28:06,076 Speaker 4: tainted by I don't think he even growing up in 427 00:28:06,116 --> 00:28:08,876 Speaker 4: Ashbury Park, that's different than growing up in Memphis. I 428 00:28:08,876 --> 00:28:12,276 Speaker 4: don't think he was. He was. I don't think he 429 00:28:12,316 --> 00:28:14,436 Speaker 4: even knew that he was black, you know, he was. 430 00:28:14,836 --> 00:28:19,116 Speaker 4: He was so well modulated, you know, I know. So 431 00:28:19,836 --> 00:28:23,156 Speaker 4: what I'm getting at is that he was a special 432 00:28:23,236 --> 00:28:25,436 Speaker 4: guy man, and we used to hang out and dorm 433 00:28:25,476 --> 00:28:28,596 Speaker 4: in these rooms and stuff, you know, and and we 434 00:28:28,636 --> 00:28:31,236 Speaker 4: would always end up in Milton's room because he was 435 00:28:31,556 --> 00:28:35,316 Speaker 4: he was a like magnet, you know, he was he 436 00:28:35,436 --> 00:28:38,756 Speaker 4: was keeping the dharma, upholding the dharma like Preis and 437 00:28:38,836 --> 00:28:42,476 Speaker 4: Bird and Train and all of that, you know. So 438 00:28:43,796 --> 00:28:46,836 Speaker 4: they just said, I keep looking, and I find out 439 00:28:47,076 --> 00:28:50,996 Speaker 4: recent just recently, USC has taken his name off of 440 00:28:51,036 --> 00:28:55,756 Speaker 4: a building and they put a Native American guy's name 441 00:28:55,796 --> 00:29:02,756 Speaker 4: on there too. Late. But anyway, pardon that, but stuff 442 00:29:02,796 --> 00:29:06,276 Speaker 4: has been bothering me lately. I'm checking it out. But 443 00:29:06,396 --> 00:29:08,356 Speaker 4: then I'm here. I am trying to sing a song 444 00:29:08,396 --> 00:29:11,516 Speaker 4: about tenderness. I am a tender worry. I'm not going 445 00:29:11,596 --> 00:29:17,556 Speaker 4: to lie to anybody, you know, because but tenderness, you know, 446 00:29:19,116 --> 00:29:22,756 Speaker 4: that takes me back to Preis, because and then Preis 447 00:29:22,876 --> 00:29:25,356 Speaker 4: was messed up in the arm in dB blues, the 448 00:29:25,356 --> 00:29:28,476 Speaker 4: detension barriers blues and stuff, you know, and it's light. 449 00:29:29,436 --> 00:29:32,436 Speaker 4: When will it end? When will it quit? The beautiful 450 00:29:32,436 --> 00:29:34,516 Speaker 4: thing I'm trying to say to you, Dahn, is that 451 00:29:35,036 --> 00:29:38,876 Speaker 4: I went away. I left Atlantic. They blackballed me. I 452 00:29:38,916 --> 00:29:41,916 Speaker 4: couldn't record with anyone else before anyone else because they 453 00:29:41,916 --> 00:29:46,116 Speaker 4: said I still owe them records and anyway. But I 454 00:29:46,196 --> 00:29:51,156 Speaker 4: came out here. I made my getaway. Beginner's changed, not 455 00:29:51,156 --> 00:29:57,436 Speaker 4: nothing serious, but I did by home in Malibu Colony, 456 00:29:57,516 --> 00:30:03,076 Speaker 4: which was interested in sixty nine. When I left, he 457 00:30:03,156 --> 00:30:07,396 Speaker 4: left Atlantic, and I left New York in the music 458 00:30:07,476 --> 00:30:11,436 Speaker 4: industry because I I had blown too many fuses and 459 00:30:12,996 --> 00:30:15,636 Speaker 4: I had left Atlantic. I wouldn't give them any more records. 460 00:30:15,676 --> 00:30:18,436 Speaker 4: They went from giving. At one point, I wanted to 461 00:30:18,476 --> 00:30:22,076 Speaker 4: move up to Woodstock with Bob Dylan was a neighbor 462 00:30:22,076 --> 00:30:24,996 Speaker 4: in the village, and he moved up to Woodstock and 463 00:30:25,116 --> 00:30:29,356 Speaker 4: Robbie Robinson the band. Those guys were friends and fans 464 00:30:29,396 --> 00:30:31,636 Speaker 4: and all of that. And so I'd go up and 465 00:30:31,676 --> 00:30:34,156 Speaker 4: hang out with Robbie and stay at his house, and 466 00:30:34,196 --> 00:30:38,796 Speaker 4: he'd take me over to Dylan's place. And the thing 467 00:30:38,956 --> 00:30:42,276 Speaker 4: is that, so Dylan comes up to me. We were 468 00:30:43,236 --> 00:30:46,196 Speaker 4: hanging out at Grossman's house. Dylan comes up to me 469 00:30:46,236 --> 00:30:48,996 Speaker 4: and said, Robbie, say you moving out to the West Coast. 470 00:30:49,876 --> 00:30:54,396 Speaker 4: And I said, well yeah, And he said, well don't 471 00:30:54,436 --> 00:30:56,636 Speaker 4: do that. That place is going to fall into the ocean. 472 00:30:57,676 --> 00:31:00,396 Speaker 4: And I said, well, Bob, you've written some nice lyrics, 473 00:31:00,436 --> 00:31:03,956 Speaker 4: but so be it. You know, I've got to do 474 00:31:04,036 --> 00:31:07,156 Speaker 4: it my way. Then one day I'm at my house 475 00:31:07,236 --> 00:31:10,236 Speaker 4: on the beach and I look out there and there's 476 00:31:10,276 --> 00:31:13,676 Speaker 4: the band standing almost near my house taking a photo, 477 00:31:13,836 --> 00:31:16,916 Speaker 4: you know. So I went out and saw leave on 478 00:31:17,076 --> 00:31:19,756 Speaker 4: and robbing all the guys and Rick and stuff. So 479 00:31:19,796 --> 00:31:21,596 Speaker 4: I said, what's going on, guys, And they said, well, 480 00:31:23,276 --> 00:31:26,596 Speaker 4: Bob just brought us out here. I said, oh, the 481 00:31:26,716 --> 00:31:29,076 Speaker 4: same guy who told me don't move out here because it's, 482 00:31:29,276 --> 00:31:31,836 Speaker 4: you know, too file of the village. No, that's a 483 00:31:31,876 --> 00:31:35,756 Speaker 4: different story. So I always followed my own bells, and 484 00:31:35,796 --> 00:31:39,596 Speaker 4: that leads me to what I just slipped it said 485 00:31:39,876 --> 00:31:42,716 Speaker 4: to When I moved to where Dorothy and I live 486 00:31:42,836 --> 00:31:46,356 Speaker 4: now in Martacito, I said to the guys, I said, 487 00:31:48,436 --> 00:31:50,636 Speaker 4: I'm going to buy this piece of land out here. 488 00:31:50,756 --> 00:31:52,436 Speaker 4: You know this guy. They said, you don't want to 489 00:31:52,436 --> 00:31:55,436 Speaker 4: move out there's too far out the village. I said, well, 490 00:31:56,396 --> 00:31:59,036 Speaker 4: I used to play with Holland Woolf and Junior Park 491 00:31:59,076 --> 00:32:01,116 Speaker 4: and they used to sing, I'm gonna move wall on 492 00:32:01,156 --> 00:32:04,036 Speaker 4: the outskirts of town. Don't want nobody coming out there 493 00:32:04,116 --> 00:32:07,236 Speaker 4: messing around. So I knew what was good for me. 494 00:32:07,396 --> 00:32:13,196 Speaker 4: The iceman, the mailman, you know. So anyway, now, everybody 495 00:32:13,236 --> 00:32:15,556 Speaker 4: wants to live out there, you know, and the girl 496 00:32:15,596 --> 00:32:19,716 Speaker 4: who seriously swaps houses and stuff and different people move, 497 00:32:19,956 --> 00:32:23,276 Speaker 4: they all move near me. And Dorothy's made a beautiful 498 00:32:23,316 --> 00:32:26,356 Speaker 4: world for me there, and I do want to be 499 00:32:26,436 --> 00:32:29,716 Speaker 4: able to live in my lifetime with my creativity. And 500 00:32:30,316 --> 00:32:33,276 Speaker 4: this music is ten cents of dance. Don't get me wrong. 501 00:32:34,356 --> 00:32:38,916 Speaker 4: It's it's but it's shiny, but it's it doesn't They 502 00:32:39,036 --> 00:32:42,676 Speaker 4: just raised my insurance thirty percent and this and that, 503 00:32:43,036 --> 00:32:47,316 Speaker 4: you know, back in so the inflation or whatever, inflation 504 00:32:47,436 --> 00:32:54,156 Speaker 4: blues or whatever. So I just thought wow. But anyway, 505 00:32:54,276 --> 00:32:57,756 Speaker 4: so what happened was a friend, Steve Cloud, who was 506 00:32:58,076 --> 00:33:01,396 Speaker 4: managing Keith Jarrett, called me and said, man, you see 507 00:33:01,436 --> 00:33:03,796 Speaker 4: him wants you to come over there. Because I was 508 00:33:03,796 --> 00:33:07,036 Speaker 4: in Big Sir, and I wasn't recording or even interested. 509 00:33:07,076 --> 00:33:10,916 Speaker 4: He said, man, you see him really wants you. So 510 00:33:11,756 --> 00:33:13,516 Speaker 4: I said, well, what does that mean? He said, means 511 00:33:13,596 --> 00:33:16,716 Speaker 4: that you'll get a straight count, but it'll be the 512 00:33:16,756 --> 00:33:20,116 Speaker 4: slow burn. It won't be you know, the big program. 513 00:33:20,916 --> 00:33:24,676 Speaker 4: So I said, well, if it's honest and straight. So 514 00:33:24,716 --> 00:33:32,236 Speaker 4: I went with that, and but I was always I 515 00:33:32,236 --> 00:33:34,916 Speaker 4: wrote a lot of music and I needed to have 516 00:33:35,036 --> 00:33:40,516 Speaker 4: my children, my masters, so to say. And we could 517 00:33:40,556 --> 00:33:43,996 Speaker 4: never work that out with Manfred. And although it was 518 00:33:43,996 --> 00:33:47,316 Speaker 4: supposed to have been an enlightened situation, it didn't get 519 00:33:47,396 --> 00:33:50,756 Speaker 4: enlightened enough for me, and so we had we had problems, 520 00:33:51,236 --> 00:33:54,036 Speaker 4: and also he would I got to the point where 521 00:33:54,156 --> 00:33:59,036 Speaker 4: with Higgins and the records, I was Dorothy and I 522 00:33:59,036 --> 00:34:03,356 Speaker 4: were producing all the records after the first ones, and 523 00:34:04,076 --> 00:34:05,916 Speaker 4: we made a record Fish out of Water. It was 524 00:34:05,916 --> 00:34:08,156 Speaker 4: the first one with Manfred, and they told me he 525 00:34:08,196 --> 00:34:10,316 Speaker 4: was a strange guy. So I said, well, I'm just 526 00:34:10,356 --> 00:34:13,716 Speaker 4: going to do my music, and I played about five 527 00:34:14,476 --> 00:34:18,676 Speaker 4: pieces and he pushed the talk button and said, don't 528 00:34:18,716 --> 00:34:20,836 Speaker 4: you want to come in and hear something? So I 529 00:34:20,876 --> 00:34:23,596 Speaker 4: went into the studio and I had tears because what 530 00:34:23,716 --> 00:34:26,836 Speaker 4: I had heard in my mind's here. It was on 531 00:34:26,876 --> 00:34:29,956 Speaker 4: the tape and there's a guy named jan Eric Kungshag 532 00:34:30,076 --> 00:34:34,556 Speaker 4: I think was his name, Norwegian or yeah, I think 533 00:34:34,556 --> 00:34:38,676 Speaker 4: a Norwegian guy, and he had captured it because before 534 00:34:38,756 --> 00:34:43,396 Speaker 4: it was always you know, engineers were some some I 535 00:34:43,516 --> 00:34:47,156 Speaker 4: wasn't getting close enough to the music, so that that 536 00:34:47,316 --> 00:34:49,436 Speaker 4: touched me very much. And if you ever listen to 537 00:34:49,436 --> 00:34:51,916 Speaker 4: that record, Fish out of Water, you can you can 538 00:34:51,956 --> 00:34:55,356 Speaker 4: hear every instrument clearly, and the whole thing is is 539 00:34:55,876 --> 00:34:59,996 Speaker 4: what I'm trying to get at. It's all a union, 540 00:35:00,196 --> 00:35:03,996 Speaker 4: you know. It's it's an amalgam of spirits on a 541 00:35:04,076 --> 00:35:08,796 Speaker 4: human journey. And that's what we were doing. But we 542 00:35:08,836 --> 00:35:12,516 Speaker 4: could gets only so far. Then here you come along, 543 00:35:13,156 --> 00:35:17,676 Speaker 4: and you I have a friend in New York, Nate Chennon. 544 00:35:18,556 --> 00:35:27,276 Speaker 4: He's a journalist, and he said, you know, Don Was 545 00:35:27,356 --> 00:35:30,876 Speaker 4: told me you could bust his story. He said, Don 546 00:35:31,116 --> 00:35:35,316 Speaker 4: Was told me that when he takes over Blue Note, 547 00:35:35,396 --> 00:35:37,796 Speaker 4: the first artist he wants to sign is Charles Lloyd. 548 00:35:38,676 --> 00:35:43,316 Speaker 4: And then you came up with flowers and sweets and stuff, 549 00:35:43,396 --> 00:35:47,076 Speaker 4: you know, and a pure heart. But by this time 550 00:35:48,116 --> 00:35:54,676 Speaker 4: I was fragile, and it's hard to believe what anyone says, 551 00:35:54,956 --> 00:35:57,436 Speaker 4: you know, because we live in our own world and 552 00:35:57,476 --> 00:36:01,036 Speaker 4: we don't bother people and make sure you leave us alone. 553 00:36:01,236 --> 00:36:04,916 Speaker 4: You know. Finally, what didn't work in America finally works 554 00:36:04,916 --> 00:36:09,076 Speaker 4: with you because you have this big years and appreciate 555 00:36:09,556 --> 00:36:13,716 Speaker 4: and big heart, and you didn't do me wrong. And 556 00:36:14,436 --> 00:36:18,196 Speaker 4: you came and you let me keep my children, and 557 00:36:20,756 --> 00:36:23,236 Speaker 4: you in it for the music and you wanted to 558 00:36:23,276 --> 00:36:27,796 Speaker 4: see the best of that, and that's why we drive 559 00:36:27,916 --> 00:36:31,996 Speaker 4: down here because I'm at a different stage where I'm 560 00:36:32,036 --> 00:36:35,476 Speaker 4: not ready to go anywhere now because now they got 561 00:36:35,476 --> 00:36:40,436 Speaker 4: me in the medical clinics and I got medical problems, 562 00:36:40,476 --> 00:36:42,796 Speaker 4: and you know, I didn't have that stuff before, never, 563 00:36:43,716 --> 00:36:49,276 Speaker 4: and I haven't done non prescription drugs in many, many decades. 564 00:36:49,356 --> 00:36:53,076 Speaker 4: So I didn't know why me. But you know, I 565 00:36:53,076 --> 00:36:57,836 Speaker 4: guess chronology is some strange stuff. I haven't seen anybody 566 00:36:57,836 --> 00:37:00,076 Speaker 4: get out of here live yet. It's something that I'm 567 00:37:00,116 --> 00:37:03,316 Speaker 4: interested in, but I haven't seen anybody pull it off. 568 00:37:03,396 --> 00:37:05,956 Speaker 4: You know. I did learn to swim underwater. I was 569 00:37:05,956 --> 00:37:09,716 Speaker 4: a junior lifeguard. I'm at Jamal was really touched by 570 00:37:09,796 --> 00:37:14,236 Speaker 4: that because Jamille Nassa played bass with him and he's 571 00:37:14,276 --> 00:37:16,116 Speaker 4: from Memphis, and he told him and he grew up 572 00:37:16,116 --> 00:37:18,636 Speaker 4: at Hineas and he told him all about my junior 573 00:37:18,676 --> 00:37:23,996 Speaker 4: lifeguard stuff. But I would practice swimming underwater, and I'm 574 00:37:24,036 --> 00:37:27,756 Speaker 4: trying to learn how to breathe. It's a concept, but 575 00:37:28,196 --> 00:37:32,276 Speaker 4: it's not a reality. But I keep working on it, 576 00:37:33,036 --> 00:37:37,076 Speaker 4: and I almost pulled it off sometimes where I could. 577 00:37:37,356 --> 00:37:40,196 Speaker 4: I thought I was staying under for a long long time, 578 00:37:41,316 --> 00:37:45,036 Speaker 4: and I went to Toledo in Ohio and I won 579 00:37:45,676 --> 00:37:51,916 Speaker 4: diving contests and stuff like that. I told you about Easel. 580 00:37:52,476 --> 00:37:55,516 Speaker 4: You know, there was this guy in my neighborhood. We 581 00:37:55,556 --> 00:37:58,676 Speaker 4: could only go to the swimming pool two or three 582 00:37:58,716 --> 00:38:01,276 Speaker 4: months in the summer because they said we got to 583 00:38:01,316 --> 00:38:04,476 Speaker 4: give him that at least, you know, stuff, And they 584 00:38:04,556 --> 00:38:07,676 Speaker 4: had their pools all year round. And we'd go to 585 00:38:07,716 --> 00:38:10,876 Speaker 4: Mississippi out of Memphis and there was clear water, you know, 586 00:38:10,956 --> 00:38:15,956 Speaker 4: and the grand stuff for the other tribe. And so 587 00:38:17,036 --> 00:38:21,116 Speaker 4: I thought this was pretty out there. But so we 588 00:38:21,156 --> 00:38:23,476 Speaker 4: couldn't wait for the pool open. And my mother was 589 00:38:23,596 --> 00:38:28,916 Speaker 4: very wise. That was earlier property. When I was eight 590 00:38:28,996 --> 00:38:33,356 Speaker 4: or nine, she bought a house. She bought some lots 591 00:38:33,396 --> 00:38:36,996 Speaker 4: across the street from the Orange Mound playground, so I 592 00:38:37,076 --> 00:38:39,996 Speaker 4: had access, you know, and it was beautiful. I had 593 00:38:40,156 --> 00:38:44,276 Speaker 4: almost a little world. My grandfather was a wise guy, 594 00:38:44,276 --> 00:38:47,556 Speaker 4: and he had sixteen hundred acres in Mississippi, and so 595 00:38:47,636 --> 00:38:50,396 Speaker 4: he knew Faulkner and all that stuff. And I would 596 00:38:50,636 --> 00:38:52,756 Speaker 4: go through his orchards and all of that, you know. 597 00:38:53,036 --> 00:38:55,956 Speaker 4: But what I'm getting at this really touching is that 598 00:38:57,556 --> 00:39:00,796 Speaker 4: we couldn't wait for the pool open. So somebody knew 599 00:39:00,836 --> 00:39:03,356 Speaker 4: how to get up under the wire fence in the back. 600 00:39:04,356 --> 00:39:06,716 Speaker 4: And so we would go and we would swim at night, 601 00:39:06,836 --> 00:39:09,276 Speaker 4: you know, because they got the water in there, but 602 00:39:09,596 --> 00:39:11,396 Speaker 4: they're not gonna open it for a week or two. 603 00:39:11,756 --> 00:39:14,596 Speaker 4: So we would go every night and swim. But Ezil 604 00:39:14,676 --> 00:39:17,116 Speaker 4: went up on the diving board, the high board, and 605 00:39:17,476 --> 00:39:20,956 Speaker 4: h one night we just couldn't wait, and he wanted 606 00:39:20,916 --> 00:39:23,916 Speaker 4: to do a two and a half, you know, and 607 00:39:23,996 --> 00:39:25,396 Speaker 4: so he could do a one and a half, but 608 00:39:25,436 --> 00:39:26,676 Speaker 4: he wanted to make sure he could do a two 609 00:39:26,716 --> 00:39:28,916 Speaker 4: and a half, and he went up on the board 610 00:39:29,156 --> 00:39:32,196 Speaker 4: and uh, there was no water in the pool. And 611 00:39:32,276 --> 00:39:36,876 Speaker 4: so uh, Ezell didn't come back the same. He stayed 612 00:39:36,876 --> 00:39:38,876 Speaker 4: with us, but he was always kind of laughing and 613 00:39:38,956 --> 00:39:43,036 Speaker 4: grinning like he knew what was happening. And in another way, 614 00:39:43,876 --> 00:39:47,556 Speaker 4: and I walked to school past his house through a 615 00:39:47,596 --> 00:39:50,396 Speaker 4: field every day, but he'd just be out there grinning 616 00:39:50,436 --> 00:39:53,276 Speaker 4: at us all the time. That kind of hurt me 617 00:39:53,356 --> 00:39:57,916 Speaker 4: a lot. You know. If the facilities had been as 618 00:39:57,956 --> 00:40:00,916 Speaker 4: they should be available, we wouldn't have had to be 619 00:40:01,036 --> 00:40:05,036 Speaker 4: such Wow guys. You know, one last thing I'd tell 620 00:40:05,036 --> 00:40:09,876 Speaker 4: you about Higgins and Ornette because they were at this session, 621 00:40:10,636 --> 00:40:14,796 Speaker 4: So at this jam session I told you about. Higgins 622 00:40:14,836 --> 00:40:17,836 Speaker 4: told me that he and Don Cherrywood and Watts playing 623 00:40:17,876 --> 00:40:21,356 Speaker 4: stickball out in the street. I would tell you this Don, 624 00:40:22,316 --> 00:40:27,276 Speaker 4: So this is really good to know. And they were 625 00:40:27,316 --> 00:40:31,596 Speaker 4: young musicians, you know, and they grew up in LA 626 00:40:32,716 --> 00:40:38,956 Speaker 4: and they heard this wow sound coming from several blocks away, 627 00:40:39,356 --> 00:40:41,716 Speaker 4: and they dropped his sticks and ball and started running 628 00:40:41,756 --> 00:40:44,516 Speaker 4: to the sound. And they didn't know what it was, 629 00:40:44,556 --> 00:40:48,996 Speaker 4: but it was compelling. And when they got there, it 630 00:40:49,076 --> 00:40:51,316 Speaker 4: was Arnett in the music store trying not to read. 631 00:40:52,676 --> 00:40:57,476 Speaker 4: So that was the start of them, because Ornett he 632 00:40:58,836 --> 00:41:01,516 Speaker 4: it was the call. They heard it, you know, and 633 00:41:01,556 --> 00:41:05,316 Speaker 4: they ran to it, you know. And so Ornette told 634 00:41:05,356 --> 00:41:07,516 Speaker 4: me once he said, man, if you get four guys 635 00:41:08,556 --> 00:41:12,676 Speaker 4: and they can leave in an ideal, he said, you can. 636 00:41:14,196 --> 00:41:14,476 Speaker 3: I don't. 637 00:41:14,556 --> 00:41:16,876 Speaker 4: He didn't say changed the world, but he said you can. 638 00:41:19,476 --> 00:41:21,476 Speaker 4: You can achieve a lot. I don't know how he 639 00:41:21,676 --> 00:41:24,036 Speaker 4: how he put it, because he and I would have 640 00:41:24,156 --> 00:41:28,676 Speaker 4: all these discussions and such. But I've always loved that 641 00:41:28,796 --> 00:41:32,276 Speaker 4: story that Higgins told me about that. 642 00:41:32,676 --> 00:41:33,996 Speaker 3: What was it like to play with him? 643 00:41:34,476 --> 00:41:36,436 Speaker 4: Play with with Arnett or Higgins? 644 00:41:36,796 --> 00:41:37,156 Speaker 3: Arnett? 645 00:41:37,716 --> 00:41:42,676 Speaker 4: This was great, man. See, as he said to me, 646 00:41:42,756 --> 00:41:44,676 Speaker 4: you can really play the saxophone, but that doesn't have 647 00:41:44,716 --> 00:41:47,236 Speaker 4: a lot to do with music. He had his own cosmology. 648 00:41:47,396 --> 00:41:51,836 Speaker 4: He he could he could do the traditional thing. He'd 649 00:41:51,836 --> 00:41:54,996 Speaker 4: heard bird, he'd gone through that. But he was from 650 00:41:55,036 --> 00:41:58,676 Speaker 4: Texas Fort Worth and he'd play with those rhythm and 651 00:41:58,716 --> 00:42:01,556 Speaker 4: blues bands too. And the guys take his horn and 652 00:42:01,596 --> 00:42:04,316 Speaker 4: break it and beat him up and stuff on the road. 653 00:42:05,236 --> 00:42:08,316 Speaker 4: But he never stopped either, you know, he just kept 654 00:42:08,676 --> 00:42:12,756 Speaker 4: kept going. And Phineas Newborn was our js bock in Memphis, 655 00:42:12,796 --> 00:42:15,476 Speaker 4: and he had me to learn all the standards and 656 00:42:15,516 --> 00:42:20,796 Speaker 4: the changes and the harmonic modulations and and and how 657 00:42:20,836 --> 00:42:23,836 Speaker 4: do you call it a play Cherokee and b Flatin? Now, 658 00:42:23,916 --> 00:42:25,636 Speaker 4: let's play it in a Let's play it in e 659 00:42:26,316 --> 00:42:30,996 Speaker 4: And George Coma was like a Santini kind of guy, 660 00:42:31,076 --> 00:42:34,676 Speaker 4: you know, sergeant major on your case, you know. So 661 00:42:35,316 --> 00:42:38,276 Speaker 4: we had a serious school there in Memphis. And uh 662 00:42:38,556 --> 00:42:41,076 Speaker 4: and Brooker Little was my best friend in high school. 663 00:42:41,116 --> 00:42:43,716 Speaker 4: And he's the one when I first got to New York. 664 00:42:43,996 --> 00:42:46,516 Speaker 4: I did tell you that. He said, where are you staying? 665 00:42:46,636 --> 00:42:50,036 Speaker 4: I told you that. So anyway, he weren't that basics 666 00:42:50,956 --> 00:42:55,276 Speaker 4: weren't the tightest, but he had his cosmology. And as 667 00:42:55,316 --> 00:42:57,836 Speaker 4: I said, he was playing the etymology of what is 668 00:42:57,876 --> 00:43:00,356 Speaker 4: this thing called? If he wasn't playing the changes, you know, 669 00:43:01,036 --> 00:43:04,036 Speaker 4: And so he had moved into harmolodics, as he called it, 670 00:43:04,436 --> 00:43:07,516 Speaker 4: and he was playing the sound of the music, you know. 671 00:43:07,876 --> 00:43:12,396 Speaker 4: And so we would argue, you know, and he said, well, 672 00:43:12,516 --> 00:43:17,476 Speaker 4: you know you're not you know, you're not telling the story, 673 00:43:17,556 --> 00:43:19,996 Speaker 4: you know, singing the song. And I said, well, but 674 00:43:20,076 --> 00:43:22,796 Speaker 4: you you can't read or something, you know. He was 675 00:43:23,076 --> 00:43:26,116 Speaker 4: a little shaky there, you know, and he said, well, 676 00:43:26,276 --> 00:43:28,676 Speaker 4: I'll fix him. He can't. You walked over to my house. 677 00:43:28,716 --> 00:43:30,476 Speaker 4: He had a STUDI Baker car. Don't know if you 678 00:43:30,476 --> 00:43:33,436 Speaker 4: ever remember that they were made in the fifties where 679 00:43:33,516 --> 00:43:36,276 Speaker 4: the front in the back you can't tell which is which. 680 00:43:36,716 --> 00:43:38,756 Speaker 4: And I remember that we were at a jam session 681 00:43:38,796 --> 00:43:41,876 Speaker 4: at the Little Chris Club over by Wrigley Field here 682 00:43:41,876 --> 00:43:44,796 Speaker 4: in la and Watts and we would go to these 683 00:43:44,876 --> 00:43:48,236 Speaker 4: jam sessions and we would come out we'd be so 684 00:43:48,396 --> 00:43:52,316 Speaker 4: high from the music that Ornett was taking us home 685 00:43:52,356 --> 00:43:57,036 Speaker 4: in his car. But because you can't tell which is 686 00:43:57,076 --> 00:43:59,276 Speaker 4: the front and which is the back, he backed up 687 00:43:59,316 --> 00:44:03,836 Speaker 4: and backed over his horn. And because we were high 688 00:44:03,876 --> 00:44:07,636 Speaker 4: from the music, and the relative kind of recedes and 689 00:44:07,676 --> 00:44:11,756 Speaker 4: it's no longer what you think it is. It's not solid, 690 00:44:11,956 --> 00:44:15,556 Speaker 4: you know, the relative. It's not like the absolute. You know. 691 00:44:15,636 --> 00:44:18,796 Speaker 4: The absolute is we're all spirits on a human journey. 692 00:44:19,036 --> 00:44:22,076 Speaker 4: And when you play this indigenous art form, something happens 693 00:44:22,156 --> 00:44:26,996 Speaker 4: that takes you to another place where you don't have 694 00:44:28,516 --> 00:44:33,956 Speaker 4: any limitations like the relative. And so that's what draws 695 00:44:34,036 --> 00:44:36,636 Speaker 4: us to this music. It's the music of freedom and wonder. 696 00:44:37,116 --> 00:44:39,196 Speaker 4: So by him backing over his alto and he was 697 00:44:39,276 --> 00:44:43,276 Speaker 4: working day job down at Bullocks or something, driving an elevator, 698 00:44:43,676 --> 00:44:47,676 Speaker 4: you know, it's like the Arment store one of downtown. 699 00:44:47,796 --> 00:44:51,036 Speaker 4: Yeah it was wasn't Wilson and knows downtown, main part 700 00:44:51,076 --> 00:44:54,356 Speaker 4: of downtown. But he would go down and park the 701 00:44:54,436 --> 00:44:57,596 Speaker 4: freight elevator in the basement in practice, you know. So 702 00:44:57,996 --> 00:45:01,516 Speaker 4: he you know what you have to do because you 703 00:45:01,596 --> 00:45:04,916 Speaker 4: love the music so much, you know. And I'm drunk 704 00:45:04,956 --> 00:45:07,436 Speaker 4: with that, you know. It's like Duke Allenton told my mother, 705 00:45:07,556 --> 00:45:09,756 Speaker 4: you know, she said he wants to be a musician 706 00:45:09,916 --> 00:45:14,316 Speaker 4: so bad, you know, And Johnny Hodges said well, and 707 00:45:14,476 --> 00:45:16,916 Speaker 4: Duke said well no, no, no, no no, And they 708 00:45:16,956 --> 00:45:19,396 Speaker 4: both said no. When my mother said, he wants to 709 00:45:19,396 --> 00:45:23,436 Speaker 4: be a musician, and they said no, And so my 710 00:45:23,436 --> 00:45:26,436 Speaker 4: mother said why, He said, this life is too hard. 711 00:45:26,876 --> 00:45:29,516 Speaker 4: Make that boy be a doctor, lawyer or Indian chief, 712 00:45:29,636 --> 00:45:33,756 Speaker 4: none of this stuff, you know. And so but by 713 00:45:33,756 --> 00:45:35,916 Speaker 4: this time I'm bit by the cobra. So there's nothing 714 00:45:35,956 --> 00:45:41,236 Speaker 4: I could do but play the music. Years later, as 715 00:45:41,516 --> 00:45:44,916 Speaker 4: nine or ten or something like that, years later, in 716 00:45:44,956 --> 00:45:48,076 Speaker 4: my mid twenties with the band with Keith Jarret and 717 00:45:48,116 --> 00:45:51,636 Speaker 4: Jack de Jenett and Cecil McBee, we were in on 718 00:45:51,876 --> 00:45:56,476 Speaker 4: tee and we kind of tore the place up and 719 00:45:56,476 --> 00:45:59,396 Speaker 4: and Duke said, well, if that guy keeps stirring his suit, 720 00:45:59,556 --> 00:46:02,396 Speaker 4: one day he's going to have something. But what he 721 00:46:02,396 --> 00:46:04,676 Speaker 4: didn't understand I was the guy he was trying to 722 00:46:05,396 --> 00:46:10,116 Speaker 4: say from doing this, you know. But I was yond saving, 723 00:46:10,316 --> 00:46:13,876 Speaker 4: you know. Now, had I been a doctor, a lawyer 724 00:46:13,916 --> 00:46:16,316 Speaker 4: in the chief, I wouldn't have met Dorothy, and we 725 00:46:16,356 --> 00:46:19,556 Speaker 4: wouldn't we we wouldn't be on our path together, you know. 726 00:46:19,756 --> 00:46:24,116 Speaker 4: So it's like who you gonna serve? You know. So 727 00:46:24,196 --> 00:46:27,116 Speaker 4: in that we we were we were practicing, playing all 728 00:46:27,156 --> 00:46:31,436 Speaker 4: that stuff. I always loved his cosmology though, and you know, 729 00:46:31,476 --> 00:46:35,196 Speaker 4: he could write these tunes and they're beautiful man. And 730 00:46:35,276 --> 00:46:40,716 Speaker 4: so one day we had a particular argument. He always 731 00:46:40,796 --> 00:46:42,996 Speaker 4: was trying to tell me the chord can't resolve and 732 00:46:43,036 --> 00:46:45,876 Speaker 4: stuff like that, you know. So we had five our 733 00:46:46,036 --> 00:46:49,396 Speaker 4: phone conversations and we were just so deep off into. 734 00:46:49,196 --> 00:46:51,076 Speaker 1: The chord can't resolve. 735 00:46:51,556 --> 00:46:55,356 Speaker 4: Yeah, he didn't believe in that. So anyway, he he 736 00:46:55,476 --> 00:46:57,956 Speaker 4: was trying to explain to me why a chord can't resolve, 737 00:46:58,036 --> 00:47:01,956 Speaker 4: you know. Anyway, so he just takes Stanley Crouch. You 738 00:47:02,956 --> 00:47:04,676 Speaker 4: would laugh, and he'd say to me, man, you know, 739 00:47:05,796 --> 00:47:10,276 Speaker 4: or that talks all that stuff, he said, but when 740 00:47:10,316 --> 00:47:13,996 Speaker 4: he starts playing that music, he said, it makes you cry. 741 00:47:13,996 --> 00:47:18,116 Speaker 4: And you can hear children on the playground playing. You know, 742 00:47:18,276 --> 00:47:20,476 Speaker 4: he can take you right to a state, you know, 743 00:47:20,596 --> 00:47:24,076 Speaker 4: lonely woman and all that stuff. And so this particular 744 00:47:24,156 --> 00:47:28,316 Speaker 4: day he walks over to my house and he takes 745 00:47:28,356 --> 00:47:33,036 Speaker 4: out his horn. We must have serious arguments or something 746 00:47:33,076 --> 00:47:35,876 Speaker 4: around that period. He takes out his horn and he 747 00:47:35,916 --> 00:47:39,156 Speaker 4: plays the lowest note B flat on the horn, and 748 00:47:39,276 --> 00:47:41,396 Speaker 4: the next note he played was the highest note on 749 00:47:41,436 --> 00:47:47,076 Speaker 4: the horn, F and he chromatically brought them together like that. 750 00:47:47,116 --> 00:47:52,196 Speaker 4: But he's like, like, what happened to Cherry and Billy Higgins. 751 00:47:52,636 --> 00:47:57,076 Speaker 4: He squashed the hole of the molecule, molecular structure. So 752 00:47:57,356 --> 00:48:00,676 Speaker 4: at that point you understand what I say. He did 753 00:48:01,076 --> 00:48:03,276 Speaker 4: lowest note, highest note, and then you come up the 754 00:48:03,276 --> 00:48:06,716 Speaker 4: next lowest note, the next lowest high note, and he 755 00:48:06,756 --> 00:48:08,876 Speaker 4: did it all in a nanosecond. And I never heard 756 00:48:08,996 --> 00:48:10,556 Speaker 4: one to do that in my life. At which point 757 00:48:10,596 --> 00:48:13,796 Speaker 4: I bowed down and we never had another argument. Wow, 758 00:48:13,796 --> 00:48:16,556 Speaker 4: because I wasn't about to argue with somebody who can. Uh. 759 00:48:17,156 --> 00:48:19,756 Speaker 4: It's kind of like bird discovered the Adam and train 760 00:48:19,876 --> 00:48:22,276 Speaker 4: smashed it. It was kind of we had a conversation 761 00:48:22,476 --> 00:48:22,836 Speaker 4: like that. 762 00:48:23,076 --> 00:48:23,236 Speaker 2: You know. 763 00:48:23,996 --> 00:48:26,636 Speaker 3: Yeah, did you spend time with Eric Dolphie? 764 00:48:27,076 --> 00:48:31,716 Speaker 4: I did. Now. Eric Dolphin is an interesting guy. He 765 00:48:31,716 --> 00:48:35,876 Speaker 4: he mastered the saxophone in fluting, all the clarinets and stuff. 766 00:48:36,396 --> 00:48:39,516 Speaker 4: There's a guy named Buddy Collette who was the mentor 767 00:48:39,756 --> 00:48:46,436 Speaker 4: to first Charlie Mingus, Eric Dolphie, myself, James Newton. He 768 00:48:46,836 --> 00:48:50,036 Speaker 4: he a lot of people that I don't even know, 769 00:48:50,756 --> 00:48:54,356 Speaker 4: and so he helped us all. And Buddy Collette was 770 00:48:55,156 --> 00:48:58,076 Speaker 4: he was a mentor. He told Mingus used to play 771 00:48:58,076 --> 00:49:00,276 Speaker 4: cello and the little bull legged kid be walking by 772 00:49:00,316 --> 00:49:01,876 Speaker 4: his house. He said, if you get a bass, I'll 773 00:49:01,876 --> 00:49:06,156 Speaker 4: put you in the band. Yeah, okay, So he gets 774 00:49:06,156 --> 00:49:12,076 Speaker 4: the bass, and then with Eric, he began to teach 775 00:49:12,196 --> 00:49:16,356 Speaker 4: Eric and get him up because seemed Buddy Kleg is 776 00:49:16,396 --> 00:49:18,876 Speaker 4: the first guy who could got in the studios because 777 00:49:18,876 --> 00:49:22,716 Speaker 4: he could play all the flutes and clarinets and would win. 778 00:49:23,396 --> 00:49:26,756 Speaker 4: And so the white guys in the studio in those days, 779 00:49:27,156 --> 00:49:29,036 Speaker 4: some of them wanted to be fair and they wanted 780 00:49:29,076 --> 00:49:30,836 Speaker 4: to have some brothers in there. You know, it was 781 00:49:30,956 --> 00:49:33,556 Speaker 4: kind of lonely in there because they they had heard 782 00:49:33,716 --> 00:49:35,996 Speaker 4: that's the young and bird and Lady Day and all that. 783 00:49:36,676 --> 00:49:40,236 Speaker 4: So they got Buddy in there. But the thing is 784 00:49:40,276 --> 00:49:45,516 Speaker 4: that Eric, he was sent Eric to different teachers, and 785 00:49:45,676 --> 00:49:48,756 Speaker 4: Eric got so off into the etymology of the of 786 00:49:48,796 --> 00:49:53,956 Speaker 4: the thing of the mechanics of mastering the instruments. The 787 00:49:54,036 --> 00:49:57,796 Speaker 4: Buddy told him one day, okay, no more, that's it. 788 00:49:58,236 --> 00:50:01,436 Speaker 4: No more studying with all these esoteric masters. That's it. 789 00:50:02,836 --> 00:50:05,836 Speaker 4: And so you know, yeah, we played in Gerald Wilson's 790 00:50:05,876 --> 00:50:09,996 Speaker 4: big band together two alto's, Harold An Walter Bent and 791 00:50:10,196 --> 00:50:13,636 Speaker 4: I don't remember who's playing baritone. Elma Hope was out 792 00:50:13,676 --> 00:50:16,356 Speaker 4: here for a time. He played in that group with us. Wow, 793 00:50:16,516 --> 00:50:20,476 Speaker 4: and he he was he came out to La from 794 00:50:20,476 --> 00:50:24,116 Speaker 4: New York. Uh, that's what o'nett said to me. He said, Man, 795 00:50:24,156 --> 00:50:27,116 Speaker 4: you know, I'm tired of his playing these gigs. He said, 796 00:50:27,156 --> 00:50:29,676 Speaker 4: I write all this music. He said. I could be 797 00:50:29,796 --> 00:50:31,916 Speaker 4: like Beto and I could be home with my woman, 798 00:50:32,116 --> 00:50:34,196 Speaker 4: you know, having a good time, I don't you know, 799 00:50:34,516 --> 00:50:37,316 Speaker 4: And down at Sephanie Hall they could be playing my music. 800 00:50:38,076 --> 00:50:40,596 Speaker 4: And sure enough, one time he was playing the five 801 00:50:40,636 --> 00:50:43,556 Speaker 4: spot and Leonard Beernstein jumped up on the stage and 802 00:50:43,636 --> 00:50:46,116 Speaker 4: hugged him, you know, told him how beautiful his music was. 803 00:50:46,676 --> 00:50:50,196 Speaker 4: Now you think you think about that. If Ornett had 804 00:50:50,276 --> 00:50:53,836 Speaker 4: jumped up on the stage at Philharmonic Hall or somewhere 805 00:50:53,956 --> 00:50:59,036 Speaker 4: and and told Lynny he didn't play Vogler that well tonight, 806 00:50:59,436 --> 00:51:01,756 Speaker 4: or told him he did a good job, he'd probably 807 00:51:01,796 --> 00:51:03,716 Speaker 4: been arrested. You know. It's kind of like that stuff 808 00:51:03,716 --> 00:51:07,556 Speaker 4: over in Israel or or October sixth the brothers had 809 00:51:07,556 --> 00:51:11,036 Speaker 4: gone in there with some sheddies and stuff. Them brothers 810 00:51:11,036 --> 00:51:14,476 Speaker 4: have all been mowed down, but instead they switched the 811 00:51:14,516 --> 00:51:17,756 Speaker 4: game around. So when you see too much stuff like that, 812 00:51:17,876 --> 00:51:22,716 Speaker 4: it it hurts. And uh, fair play or something you know, 813 00:51:22,796 --> 00:51:26,636 Speaker 4: it's not it's not it's not uh in the game. 814 00:51:27,316 --> 00:51:28,876 Speaker 4: So when I come out of the house, I wear 815 00:51:28,956 --> 00:51:31,516 Speaker 4: my beanie cap and my jacket and stuff so I 816 00:51:31,516 --> 00:51:35,316 Speaker 4: can be warm, just in case Caesar sends the gendarmes 817 00:51:35,356 --> 00:51:38,076 Speaker 4: down to mess with us, you know. And the weird 818 00:51:38,076 --> 00:51:41,276 Speaker 4: it's weird, the things that a brother has to think about, 819 00:51:41,436 --> 00:51:46,356 Speaker 4: you know. It's uh, that's why I live like I do. 820 00:51:46,796 --> 00:51:51,276 Speaker 4: You know, I live quiet. The wolf's at the door, 821 00:51:51,596 --> 00:51:54,476 Speaker 4: you know, and you try to do the best you 822 00:51:54,556 --> 00:51:57,236 Speaker 4: can for me. But uh, I didn't know that my 823 00:51:57,276 --> 00:52:02,356 Speaker 4: lifestyle would be so expensive. It's it's it's kind of 824 00:52:02,396 --> 00:52:04,956 Speaker 4: expensive to live simply, you know. And that's the way 825 00:52:04,996 --> 00:52:08,956 Speaker 4: we live with with no neighbors and and acreage. You know. 826 00:52:10,356 --> 00:52:12,116 Speaker 2: After this break, we're back with the rest of our 827 00:52:12,156 --> 00:52:19,396 Speaker 2: conversation with Charles Lloyd. Here's the rest of the conversation 828 00:52:19,596 --> 00:52:22,396 Speaker 2: between down was Charles Lloyd and myself. 829 00:52:23,276 --> 00:52:24,876 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about your friendship with 830 00:52:25,116 --> 00:52:26,036 Speaker 1: Booker Little. 831 00:52:26,356 --> 00:52:30,956 Speaker 4: Yeah, Booker little uh he he and I met at 832 00:52:31,436 --> 00:52:36,076 Speaker 4: about thirteen or fourteen. Booker first of all the creators. 833 00:52:36,436 --> 00:52:39,276 Speaker 4: That's still the thing about God. You know, there's something 834 00:52:39,356 --> 00:52:43,436 Speaker 4: beautiful about taking care of his children. You know, if 835 00:52:44,236 --> 00:52:49,036 Speaker 4: I wonder though, why the game is still rigged. But 836 00:52:49,356 --> 00:52:51,836 Speaker 4: so I get to New York and it's a Monday 837 00:52:51,916 --> 00:52:56,076 Speaker 4: night and Booker is playing down in bird Land and 838 00:52:56,156 --> 00:52:58,796 Speaker 4: I was staying across the street to Alvin Hotel, and 839 00:52:58,876 --> 00:53:00,916 Speaker 4: I went down. I said, Booker, I'm here. He said, 840 00:53:00,996 --> 00:53:03,796 Speaker 4: where are you staying. I said, I'm staying to Alvin. 841 00:53:04,036 --> 00:53:06,116 Speaker 4: He said, no, you're not. You're coming home with me. 842 00:53:07,036 --> 00:53:09,116 Speaker 4: So he was twenty two, and he took me home 843 00:53:09,236 --> 00:53:12,596 Speaker 4: with him, and I was ready to jump into the 844 00:53:12,636 --> 00:53:15,956 Speaker 4: fast lane because I'm in Mecca now, in Apple, you know. 845 00:53:16,676 --> 00:53:19,276 Speaker 4: And he said, no, it's not about that, It's about character. 846 00:53:19,876 --> 00:53:21,676 Speaker 4: What I came to find out was that he was 847 00:53:21,716 --> 00:53:25,756 Speaker 4: a realized soul. He left a few months several months 848 00:53:25,796 --> 00:53:32,516 Speaker 4: later at twenty three, and he took me apart because 849 00:53:32,916 --> 00:53:34,716 Speaker 4: in high school we would go to the library and 850 00:53:34,756 --> 00:53:38,916 Speaker 4: listen to bar talk string quartets and stuff, and discuss music. 851 00:53:39,156 --> 00:53:41,356 Speaker 4: Thing about bar talk is that he would take his 852 00:53:41,596 --> 00:53:46,196 Speaker 4: folk themes and he would put Bibonacci kind of number 853 00:53:46,236 --> 00:53:48,556 Speaker 4: of stuff they had gotten from Egypt, and he would 854 00:53:48,596 --> 00:53:53,076 Speaker 4: make these formulations and it was very beautiful what he 855 00:53:53,116 --> 00:53:55,796 Speaker 4: was doing, and that's what I do. I take my 856 00:53:55,916 --> 00:53:58,956 Speaker 4: folk songs, you know. And if you listen to my 857 00:53:59,036 --> 00:54:01,996 Speaker 4: new record, what's my new record call? I almost say 858 00:54:02,036 --> 00:54:04,276 Speaker 4: which way is East? But that's not the new record, 859 00:54:04,316 --> 00:54:07,716 Speaker 4: that's the one with Higgins. The sky will still be 860 00:54:07,756 --> 00:54:10,196 Speaker 4: there tomorrow. We may not be there tomorrow, but the 861 00:54:10,236 --> 00:54:15,396 Speaker 4: sky will be And I'm trying to so Booker. He 862 00:54:15,556 --> 00:54:18,156 Speaker 4: straightened me out, and he told me about character, and 863 00:54:19,876 --> 00:54:22,996 Speaker 4: he was an enlightened soul. And I have not met 864 00:54:23,036 --> 00:54:27,716 Speaker 4: anyone in this music as advanced as he was spiritually. 865 00:54:28,556 --> 00:54:32,316 Speaker 4: And he set me on the path. I asked some detours. 866 00:54:32,876 --> 00:54:36,316 Speaker 4: Booker left at twenty three. He came home at Christmas time. 867 00:54:36,676 --> 00:54:38,636 Speaker 4: He was a year ahead of me in school, and 868 00:54:38,716 --> 00:54:42,676 Speaker 4: he's two weeks younger than me. April second would be 869 00:54:42,716 --> 00:54:46,716 Speaker 4: his birthday. We had to make out we make a 870 00:54:46,716 --> 00:54:50,196 Speaker 4: tribute to him every year. So he came home from 871 00:54:50,716 --> 00:54:53,716 Speaker 4: school at eighteen. We were both eighteen, and Clifford Brown 872 00:54:53,756 --> 00:54:56,276 Speaker 4: had died, and Clifford was his hero, and he was 873 00:54:56,356 --> 00:54:59,196 Speaker 4: killed in a car accident playing with Max Roach on 874 00:54:59,276 --> 00:55:04,116 Speaker 4: the Pennsylvania Turnpike and Booker was crying. We were hanging 875 00:55:04,116 --> 00:55:07,796 Speaker 4: out and he said, you know, cliff is gone, and 876 00:55:07,836 --> 00:55:10,796 Speaker 4: Clifford was twenty five, and Booker said, why couldn't it 877 00:55:10,796 --> 00:55:14,916 Speaker 4: have been me? He was eighteen, So you don't know, 878 00:55:15,036 --> 00:55:18,476 Speaker 4: no young people ready to sacrifice or to put themselves 879 00:55:18,516 --> 00:55:22,876 Speaker 4: in harms way like that to do and fure enough. 880 00:55:22,876 --> 00:55:26,316 Speaker 4: Booker left at twenty three, but the creator had prepared him. 881 00:55:26,316 --> 00:55:28,396 Speaker 4: He was advanced. He had a sister, Vera, a little 882 00:55:28,436 --> 00:55:31,436 Speaker 4: who was an opera singer. Dorothy and I have a 883 00:55:31,476 --> 00:55:34,316 Speaker 4: picture from our world travels. We have a picture with 884 00:55:34,356 --> 00:55:37,596 Speaker 4: Beerer with the Pope. Yeah. I mean, so he comes 885 00:55:37,596 --> 00:55:40,876 Speaker 4: from some deep stuff, and all of our stuff is 886 00:55:40,956 --> 00:55:44,276 Speaker 4: very deep. The music, you know, the stuff I'm talking about, 887 00:55:44,276 --> 00:55:46,916 Speaker 4: praise and bird and all of that. You know. It's 888 00:55:46,996 --> 00:55:51,276 Speaker 4: like like I wanted to Mary lady day and you know, 889 00:55:51,356 --> 00:55:54,516 Speaker 4: give her the long driveway and stuff, you know, And 890 00:55:54,636 --> 00:55:57,276 Speaker 4: you know, because she was singing just to me. So 891 00:55:57,516 --> 00:55:59,636 Speaker 4: I put my radio on the pillow and I'd listened 892 00:55:59,716 --> 00:56:01,596 Speaker 4: late at night. You know, I could hear, you know. 893 00:56:02,036 --> 00:56:07,156 Speaker 4: Booker also had Cohen Hawkins Colman Hawkins hid who was 894 00:56:07,196 --> 00:56:12,076 Speaker 4: a master of modernity and the tenor saxophone, and he 895 00:56:12,156 --> 00:56:17,636 Speaker 4: knew his harmonies. He also played cello and and he 896 00:56:17,676 --> 00:56:21,076 Speaker 4: commissioned Booker to write music for an architect for him. 897 00:56:21,476 --> 00:56:24,676 Speaker 4: The day they were in the recording studio, that was 898 00:56:24,716 --> 00:56:27,436 Speaker 4: the day Booker left town. And everybody was looking for 899 00:56:27,476 --> 00:56:31,436 Speaker 4: the music and looking for Booker. And I knew his lady, Matil, 900 00:56:31,636 --> 00:56:34,316 Speaker 4: and to this day I saw the music on the piano, 901 00:56:34,516 --> 00:56:37,916 Speaker 4: but the music has never been found, you know. And 902 00:56:38,516 --> 00:56:41,316 Speaker 4: but he did write it. He also wrote the music 903 00:56:41,356 --> 00:56:47,916 Speaker 4: for trains, Africa Brass and all the all the brass, 904 00:56:48,196 --> 00:56:51,036 Speaker 4: and he he he did a beautiful thing. Man, if 905 00:56:51,076 --> 00:56:53,596 Speaker 4: you haven't listened to Africa Brass, check it out the 906 00:56:53,636 --> 00:56:59,516 Speaker 4: brass they're doing Booker, Booker taught him how to do that. 907 00:56:59,676 --> 00:57:03,036 Speaker 4: You know. There was a guy named Bob Norton was 908 00:57:03,036 --> 00:57:06,076 Speaker 4: a French horn player and he was on that too, 909 00:57:06,156 --> 00:57:10,196 Speaker 4: But all the all of so Booker, Booker, he was 910 00:57:10,276 --> 00:57:13,676 Speaker 4: very modern, very very special. He didn't have a big 911 00:57:14,436 --> 00:57:17,876 Speaker 4: love Ornett though, and I was hoping that he'd lived 912 00:57:17,876 --> 00:57:23,436 Speaker 4: long enough that we could have bridged that gap. But 913 00:57:24,956 --> 00:57:28,916 Speaker 4: Booker was he was, I mean, you know, he took Eric. 914 00:57:29,476 --> 00:57:34,636 Speaker 4: Of course, Eric was was very schooled and Booker was 915 00:57:34,756 --> 00:57:38,556 Speaker 4: very schooled. But Booker also was a wise man. And 916 00:57:38,596 --> 00:57:44,516 Speaker 4: his music, that stuff he did out front on candid 917 00:57:44,636 --> 00:57:53,076 Speaker 4: with with another friend of my California, Don Friedman, great pianists, 918 00:57:53,076 --> 00:57:55,956 Speaker 4: and he's on that record. I was so happy to 919 00:57:55,996 --> 00:57:58,476 Speaker 4: see and Eric Dolphins on their record. I was happy 920 00:57:58,476 --> 00:58:01,676 Speaker 4: to see Memphis and Cali all mixed up in there together. 921 00:58:02,156 --> 00:58:05,516 Speaker 1: You know, did you get what he said when he 922 00:58:05,556 --> 00:58:08,076 Speaker 1: said it's all about it's about character. Did you get 923 00:58:08,076 --> 00:58:08,636 Speaker 1: it right away? 924 00:58:09,276 --> 00:58:12,676 Speaker 4: No, what happened was that I heard it. But when 925 00:58:12,676 --> 00:58:16,796 Speaker 4: I moved out here, I started studying Vedanta and that's 926 00:58:17,036 --> 00:58:20,236 Speaker 4: Shri Rama Krishna. And he is one of the last 927 00:58:20,276 --> 00:58:22,716 Speaker 4: guys who came through here with the goods. And he 928 00:58:22,836 --> 00:58:26,316 Speaker 4: was born eighteen thirty eight. He lived fifty years, so 929 00:58:26,396 --> 00:58:29,796 Speaker 4: he left town in eighteen eighty eight. But he made 930 00:58:29,796 --> 00:58:34,796 Speaker 4: twelve guys saw me. Ivivakonando was his main cat that 931 00:58:34,876 --> 00:58:37,156 Speaker 4: he made. He made all these guys. And he was 932 00:58:37,276 --> 00:58:41,796 Speaker 4: so called illiterate in India, but he had the sacred tablets inside, 933 00:58:41,956 --> 00:58:44,876 Speaker 4: so he'd start. We were living in Bigxur and I 934 00:58:44,916 --> 00:58:47,316 Speaker 4: got deep off into Vedanta because I was studying the 935 00:58:47,316 --> 00:58:49,636 Speaker 4: wisdom of the ancients because I'm not going to go 936 00:58:49,716 --> 00:58:51,996 Speaker 4: in the public way anymore and play. And I was 937 00:58:52,036 --> 00:58:55,436 Speaker 4: playing outside the nature of the giant redwoods, and these 938 00:58:55,636 --> 00:58:58,476 Speaker 4: beautiful clouds who come over and say hello to me, 939 00:58:58,916 --> 00:59:01,596 Speaker 4: and the sun would break through, and I had all 940 00:59:01,636 --> 00:59:06,076 Speaker 4: these birds and animals and mountain lions and deer and 941 00:59:06,116 --> 00:59:08,636 Speaker 4: stuff would come around our property there. So I came 942 00:59:08,716 --> 00:59:13,596 Speaker 4: down to Santa Barber to the Vedanta bookstore, and I 943 00:59:13,716 --> 00:59:22,396 Speaker 4: was asking some deep questions about the infinite and this 944 00:59:22,516 --> 00:59:25,476 Speaker 4: young nun said, well, I don't know. I don't know 945 00:59:25,556 --> 00:59:28,156 Speaker 4: about that. I don't know how to answer that. And 946 00:59:28,196 --> 00:59:31,236 Speaker 4: then suddenly an old nun came out of the back 947 00:59:31,276 --> 00:59:36,756 Speaker 4: of the bookstore and she said, do you meditate? And 948 00:59:36,796 --> 00:59:41,356 Speaker 4: I said yes, I've been meditating for twenty thirty years. 949 00:59:41,916 --> 00:59:46,476 Speaker 4: She said, has it changed your character? And there was Booker. 950 00:59:48,356 --> 00:59:52,956 Speaker 4: It hit me, man, so it all Booker has been 951 00:59:52,996 --> 00:59:55,436 Speaker 4: guiding me all this time. And when she says it 952 00:59:55,516 --> 01:00:01,236 Speaker 4: changed your character, it was like playing this music the 953 01:00:01,356 --> 01:00:05,756 Speaker 4: lifestyle and how it's set up in the setup of 954 01:00:05,796 --> 01:00:08,636 Speaker 4: the world and you playing in beer taverns. You know. 955 01:00:08,836 --> 01:00:11,916 Speaker 4: It's it's kind of a different mill year, you know. 956 01:00:12,756 --> 01:00:17,116 Speaker 4: And so I had to get off the bus, you know, 957 01:00:17,436 --> 01:00:21,116 Speaker 4: and go into the woods and to refine myself because 958 01:00:21,316 --> 01:00:23,476 Speaker 4: Booker had laid it on me. It's not about the 959 01:00:23,556 --> 01:00:27,556 Speaker 4: fast lane, it's about character. Booker left at twenty three, 960 01:00:27,876 --> 01:00:32,036 Speaker 4: and when I stayed with him, he was always cautioning me. 961 01:00:32,476 --> 01:00:35,596 Speaker 4: You know, I was in a marriage at that time 962 01:00:35,676 --> 01:00:40,676 Speaker 4: that didn't work out. And when it didn't work out, 963 01:00:40,716 --> 01:00:44,476 Speaker 4: Dorothy and I admit, but she had moved to Europe 964 01:00:44,476 --> 01:00:46,516 Speaker 4: because she didn't want to be a part of breaking 965 01:00:46,596 --> 01:00:50,356 Speaker 4: up some family or so. And when she heard I 966 01:00:50,396 --> 01:00:53,716 Speaker 4: was gotten a divorce, she came back and we've been 967 01:00:53,756 --> 01:00:57,636 Speaker 4: together ever since, you know. So it's like, but she 968 01:00:57,796 --> 01:01:00,956 Speaker 4: also knows more cosmology about all this stuff than me. 969 01:01:01,076 --> 01:01:04,596 Speaker 4: She knows that we lived in other lives together, you know, 970 01:01:04,876 --> 01:01:07,276 Speaker 4: And you can get her a few to talk about 971 01:01:07,276 --> 01:01:14,116 Speaker 4: that stuff. She's wise, you know, and Booker and so 972 01:01:14,236 --> 01:01:16,156 Speaker 4: what I'm getting at is it took me a long 973 01:01:16,236 --> 01:01:19,236 Speaker 4: time to straighten up and fly right, you know, And 974 01:01:19,276 --> 01:01:23,636 Speaker 4: I'm so thrilled that his really beautiful thing. A lot 975 01:01:23,636 --> 01:01:25,596 Speaker 4: of guys can play a lot of stuff, you know. 976 01:01:25,636 --> 01:01:27,676 Speaker 4: But what I'm trying to do is sing a song 977 01:01:27,796 --> 01:01:33,636 Speaker 4: and tell a story. And when when the alignment is right, 978 01:01:33,996 --> 01:01:37,636 Speaker 4: the work on my character, it enhances the beauty of 979 01:01:37,636 --> 01:01:40,196 Speaker 4: my sound because the old guy has told me those 980 01:01:40,236 --> 01:01:42,996 Speaker 4: notes don't mean anything unless you have a beautiful sound. 981 01:01:43,316 --> 01:01:46,316 Speaker 4: So I'm all my life working on my sound, you know. 982 01:01:46,916 --> 01:01:49,996 Speaker 4: And then the beautiful thing about Buddy Collette, he said 983 01:01:50,036 --> 01:01:55,036 Speaker 4: to me, I know you want to play. I started 984 01:01:55,076 --> 01:01:57,236 Speaker 4: teaching school. When I graduated mess C, I didn't have 985 01:01:57,276 --> 01:01:59,516 Speaker 4: any bread or anything. And all my friends had gone 986 01:01:59,556 --> 01:02:03,116 Speaker 4: to New York or that, and Higgins and Scott and 987 01:02:03,236 --> 01:02:06,196 Speaker 4: Cherry and Charlie and they all left. So I was 988 01:02:06,236 --> 01:02:08,756 Speaker 4: out here in California and another pineapple would hit me 989 01:02:08,796 --> 01:02:11,876 Speaker 4: on the head or something, and I wasn't in the sleepwalking, 990 01:02:12,156 --> 01:02:13,996 Speaker 4: so I couldn't wait to get back to New York. 991 01:02:14,316 --> 01:02:17,876 Speaker 4: But the thing is that Lo and Behold, you know, 992 01:02:17,916 --> 01:02:20,556 Speaker 4: I go east, I come back west, you know, go east, 993 01:02:20,916 --> 01:02:23,436 Speaker 4: So I go all around the globe, you know. But 994 01:02:23,876 --> 01:02:27,276 Speaker 4: I have a nest now, and I have a mate 995 01:02:27,316 --> 01:02:30,396 Speaker 4: that's with me and cares about what we're doing, and 996 01:02:30,476 --> 01:02:33,676 Speaker 4: so we live spiritual life and it's quiet and simple. 997 01:02:34,316 --> 01:02:36,836 Speaker 4: And then I had a notion about three years ago 998 01:02:38,156 --> 01:02:41,556 Speaker 4: before COVID hit, that I wanted still wanted to change 999 01:02:41,596 --> 01:02:45,356 Speaker 4: the world with the beauty of music, and Lo and Behold, 1000 01:02:46,476 --> 01:02:50,276 Speaker 4: COVID came in and so it took us three years 1001 01:02:50,316 --> 01:02:54,396 Speaker 4: to make this record, and we finally I got the 1002 01:02:54,476 --> 01:02:56,796 Speaker 4: right people to make it the right. 1003 01:02:57,196 --> 01:03:00,796 Speaker 3: The response has been incredible. Have you read all the 1004 01:03:00,916 --> 01:03:01,556 Speaker 3: articles from me? 1005 01:03:01,556 --> 01:03:03,556 Speaker 4: I try not to read all that stuff. You know why, 1006 01:03:03,556 --> 01:03:06,356 Speaker 4: because when you tell me it's gone triple platinum, I'll 1007 01:03:06,356 --> 01:03:10,396 Speaker 4: believe you. You know, but right now it's still ten 1008 01:03:10,476 --> 01:03:12,836 Speaker 4: cents of dance, and you you. 1009 01:03:12,796 --> 01:03:13,116 Speaker 3: Know that. 1010 01:03:15,516 --> 01:03:17,436 Speaker 4: I don't know, well, I know, but I'm trying to 1011 01:03:17,476 --> 01:03:19,636 Speaker 4: tell you that the man is knocking, the wolf is 1012 01:03:19,676 --> 01:03:23,796 Speaker 4: knocking at the door, and we we love our simple retreat, 1013 01:03:24,116 --> 01:03:25,996 Speaker 4: and I need you to pick up the tempo and 1014 01:03:26,076 --> 01:03:28,996 Speaker 4: find some way that I can get that thing through 1015 01:03:29,036 --> 01:03:32,436 Speaker 4: the under the See what happened to me in the sixties. 1016 01:03:32,836 --> 01:03:37,036 Speaker 4: We had to breakthrough because I had played Monterey Jazz Festival, 1017 01:03:37,036 --> 01:03:38,836 Speaker 4: and then I came into San Francisco to play a 1018 01:03:38,836 --> 01:03:41,836 Speaker 4: club called El Matador, and then there was a group 1019 01:03:41,956 --> 01:03:46,196 Speaker 4: up the street called the Committee, which was like Belushi 1020 01:03:46,276 --> 01:03:48,756 Speaker 4: and those guys what were they called in Chicago City 1021 01:03:48,956 --> 01:03:52,396 Speaker 4: on second So they were like that, and these guys said, man, 1022 01:03:52,996 --> 01:03:54,956 Speaker 4: we don't even listen to jazz, we don't even like it, 1023 01:03:55,036 --> 01:03:56,836 Speaker 4: But man, we come back to hear you guys every 1024 01:03:56,916 --> 01:03:59,716 Speaker 4: night after we close our theater down there at their 1025 01:03:59,716 --> 01:04:03,876 Speaker 4: own theater up up on Broadway, and the club was 1026 01:04:03,956 --> 01:04:06,836 Speaker 4: on Broadway. And this one of the guys, Morgan Upton, 1027 01:04:06,916 --> 01:04:09,516 Speaker 4: he said, you know, men, there's this place to fill morning. 1028 01:04:09,556 --> 01:04:11,876 Speaker 4: There's two thousand kids over the laying on the floor 1029 01:04:11,876 --> 01:04:14,796 Speaker 4: listening to music. I think you should go there and 1030 01:04:14,836 --> 01:04:18,156 Speaker 4: play one Sunday. I said, who plays there? He said 1031 01:04:18,236 --> 01:04:22,196 Speaker 4: Muddy Waters And I said, oh, McKinley, Morganfield, I know 1032 01:04:22,276 --> 01:04:25,996 Speaker 4: those guys, you know, and so Chuck Berry and stuff, 1033 01:04:26,036 --> 01:04:30,236 Speaker 4: you know. And so he took me over there and 1034 01:04:30,276 --> 01:04:31,716 Speaker 4: I was supposed to play for a half hour and 1035 01:04:32,236 --> 01:04:34,156 Speaker 4: hour and a half. They wouldn't let us off the stage. 1036 01:04:34,516 --> 01:04:38,756 Speaker 4: So Graham started booking its bill Graham and and you know, 1037 01:04:38,836 --> 01:04:41,636 Speaker 4: then that circuit opened up for me. And it's kind 1038 01:04:41,676 --> 01:04:48,196 Speaker 4: of like FM radio became free form. You know. They 1039 01:04:48,316 --> 01:04:51,916 Speaker 4: play Grateful Dead, and they played me and Grateful Dad 1040 01:04:51,956 --> 01:04:54,796 Speaker 4: was walking around with dream Weaver. They loved that record, 1041 01:04:54,876 --> 01:04:57,476 Speaker 4: you know. And then they are all those bands in 1042 01:04:57,516 --> 01:04:59,956 Speaker 4: San Francisco wanted to be on the same shows with us. 1043 01:05:00,396 --> 01:05:02,956 Speaker 4: Of course, all those guys are billionaires now and I'm 1044 01:05:02,996 --> 01:05:07,436 Speaker 4: still out here trying to get the cart working, you know, 1045 01:05:08,116 --> 01:05:09,116 Speaker 4: get my car on the shop. 1046 01:05:09,316 --> 01:05:12,796 Speaker 1: Did you want to lean into the success of forest 1047 01:05:12,836 --> 01:05:14,676 Speaker 1: Flower and no? 1048 01:05:14,796 --> 01:05:19,716 Speaker 4: Hold success? That's dangerous stuff, you know. I love the music. 1049 01:05:20,196 --> 01:05:22,796 Speaker 4: I was told if I would play forest Flower the 1050 01:05:22,876 --> 01:05:26,116 Speaker 4: same way, with the same booring solo every night, they 1051 01:05:26,116 --> 01:05:29,636 Speaker 4: could get me over. But I like to go exploring 1052 01:05:29,716 --> 01:05:31,916 Speaker 4: every night because when you go exploring, you don't come 1053 01:05:31,956 --> 01:05:34,836 Speaker 4: back the same you get. You find things you find, 1054 01:05:35,436 --> 01:05:39,676 Speaker 4: not diamond mines of gold Man's. You find sandalwood forests 1055 01:05:39,756 --> 01:05:43,596 Speaker 4: and stuff like that. So I'm not wired, probably for 1056 01:05:45,116 --> 01:05:48,676 Speaker 4: being the media commands always at his best. I'm looking 1057 01:05:48,676 --> 01:05:50,916 Speaker 4: for something else, and what I'm looking for is looking 1058 01:05:50,956 --> 01:05:54,956 Speaker 4: for me. It is too late for me to change 1059 01:05:54,996 --> 01:05:57,956 Speaker 4: my stripes, you know. I mean, look what Quincy did 1060 01:05:57,676 --> 01:06:01,436 Speaker 4: he found? You know? He was always on the path, 1061 01:06:01,556 --> 01:06:04,476 Speaker 4: you know. But you know Michael Jackson, all that stuff 1062 01:06:04,476 --> 01:06:08,996 Speaker 4: he produced, you know, and then he fans you know, 1063 01:06:09,996 --> 01:06:16,596 Speaker 4: some people. But I can only focus on nothing against 1064 01:06:16,636 --> 01:06:20,316 Speaker 4: what he's doing. He's a wise man, you know, but 1065 01:06:20,396 --> 01:06:23,956 Speaker 4: he's seen it all, you know. I think if you 1066 01:06:23,996 --> 01:06:26,996 Speaker 4: stay over here too long, you might get burned or something. 1067 01:06:27,156 --> 01:06:29,396 Speaker 4: And I haven't seen anybody, as I say, get out 1068 01:06:29,396 --> 01:06:32,876 Speaker 4: of here alive yet. And the way we live it's 1069 01:06:33,036 --> 01:06:37,436 Speaker 4: very beautiful, but it's almost like my what do you 1070 01:06:37,516 --> 01:06:39,916 Speaker 4: call it? It's attributed to my spiritual life. I'll just 1071 01:06:39,956 --> 01:06:42,436 Speaker 4: put it that way. And again, you asked me about 1072 01:06:42,436 --> 01:06:46,196 Speaker 4: Booker Little. Booker Little was the most evolved soul that's 1073 01:06:46,236 --> 01:06:49,556 Speaker 4: ever played this music, and he never Here's the thing 1074 01:06:49,756 --> 01:06:53,756 Speaker 4: we come through. Here, we sing our song, nobody knows us, 1075 01:06:53,836 --> 01:06:54,516 Speaker 4: and we're gone. 1076 01:06:55,236 --> 01:06:55,956 Speaker 1: Is it? 1077 01:06:57,156 --> 01:07:00,476 Speaker 3: You know? I'm seventy two. I'm starting to see some 1078 01:07:00,556 --> 01:07:05,676 Speaker 3: of my friends splitting. You're a few years older, you're 1079 01:07:05,716 --> 01:07:10,316 Speaker 3: eighty six. Is it weird being like one of the 1080 01:07:10,436 --> 01:07:12,316 Speaker 3: last guys standing from your era. 1081 01:07:13,716 --> 01:07:19,516 Speaker 4: Last of the Mohiggins. Yeah, it's I didn't plan on it, 1082 01:07:20,036 --> 01:07:23,236 Speaker 4: you know. I never thought i'd be around this time 1083 01:07:24,076 --> 01:07:29,396 Speaker 4: this long. But now the health issues that are hitting 1084 01:07:29,436 --> 01:07:33,116 Speaker 4: me now, and I haven't finished my work, you know, 1085 01:07:33,836 --> 01:07:37,476 Speaker 4: and uh, maybe this record that that you have, that 1086 01:07:37,476 --> 01:07:40,716 Speaker 4: that you are so touched by, and it's it seems 1087 01:07:40,716 --> 01:07:43,796 Speaker 4: to be speaking to people. We played up there in 1088 01:07:44,436 --> 01:07:49,556 Speaker 4: the last festival we played and the people people went gaga, 1089 01:07:49,636 --> 01:07:53,996 Speaker 4: you know. So I don't know what to say about 1090 01:07:54,036 --> 01:07:56,436 Speaker 4: any of it. But I just told you what I've 1091 01:07:56,476 --> 01:07:58,716 Speaker 4: learned to live with. We come through here, we sing 1092 01:07:58,756 --> 01:08:01,316 Speaker 4: our song, nobody knows this's and we're gone. I have 1093 01:08:01,436 --> 01:08:05,916 Speaker 4: to go down with the ship. I'm not prepared to 1094 01:08:05,956 --> 01:08:08,756 Speaker 4: pick up soap and do some funny stuff. It's not 1095 01:08:09,356 --> 01:08:13,156 Speaker 4: it's not in my DNA. And I got all that 1096 01:08:13,756 --> 01:08:17,436 Speaker 4: mixed up genealogy in there too, And so there must 1097 01:08:17,436 --> 01:08:19,516 Speaker 4: be a reason the create or brought me through here. 1098 01:08:20,236 --> 01:08:23,516 Speaker 4: And Billy Higgins pulling my coat when I was getting 1099 01:08:23,556 --> 01:08:28,556 Speaker 4: ready to pull back in two thousand, it uh, I 1100 01:08:28,636 --> 01:08:31,436 Speaker 4: realized that that I must go down with the ship. 1101 01:08:31,636 --> 01:08:36,676 Speaker 4: And so so be it. I suppose, you know, we 1102 01:08:37,756 --> 01:08:44,756 Speaker 4: I suppose our blessing of living in Paradise with Dorothy 1103 01:08:44,916 --> 01:08:48,996 Speaker 4: is it is a beautiful thing. So and I'm thankful, 1104 01:08:49,036 --> 01:08:53,036 Speaker 4: and I'm trying to prepare myself to go out. I 1105 01:08:53,076 --> 01:08:57,276 Speaker 4: remember we had a guru, our guru swam me Retationanda 1106 01:08:57,396 --> 01:09:04,796 Speaker 4: from from Hini and he he was leaving town and 1107 01:09:05,196 --> 01:09:06,996 Speaker 4: he was in the hospital and they had him hooked 1108 01:09:07,036 --> 01:09:10,996 Speaker 4: up to all these wires and stuff, and he was 1109 01:09:11,076 --> 01:09:15,196 Speaker 4: leaving and he was going into Mahasamadi and all of 1110 01:09:15,236 --> 01:09:17,796 Speaker 4: a sudden, these doctors and stuff. They start pulling the 1111 01:09:17,876 --> 01:09:21,556 Speaker 4: wires and start doing stuff. And he came down to 1112 01:09:21,676 --> 01:09:24,076 Speaker 4: them and he said, what are you doing. They said, well, 1113 01:09:24,116 --> 01:09:27,276 Speaker 4: we're trying to say if you keep you here, He said, 1114 01:09:27,276 --> 01:09:29,996 Speaker 4: can't you see that I'm trying to leave, you know? 1115 01:09:30,276 --> 01:09:36,156 Speaker 4: So a wise man. See, here's the thing. When you leave, 1116 01:09:37,316 --> 01:09:40,876 Speaker 4: make sure you go out awake, because if you go 1117 01:09:40,956 --> 01:09:45,916 Speaker 4: out conscious, you can make your matriculation to the other shore. 1118 01:09:47,596 --> 01:09:51,396 Speaker 4: As I understand it from the wisdom of the ancients. 1119 01:09:52,836 --> 01:09:59,276 Speaker 4: With modernity, you can go to the other shore without impediments. 1120 01:09:59,636 --> 01:10:02,596 Speaker 2: Even you mentioned all these great jasmine from Los Angeles. 1121 01:10:02,636 --> 01:10:05,156 Speaker 2: I was thinking about a bass player from here who 1122 01:10:05,236 --> 01:10:08,156 Speaker 2: passed not long ago, Henry Grimes's cious. 1123 01:10:08,196 --> 01:10:10,516 Speaker 4: If you he wasn't from here. I knew him in 1124 01:10:10,516 --> 01:10:13,196 Speaker 4: New York. We played together a lot. I met him 1125 01:10:13,196 --> 01:10:15,436 Speaker 4: in New York and he had an apartment up on 1126 01:10:15,436 --> 01:10:17,516 Speaker 4: the West Side and we'd go up jam and play 1127 01:10:17,556 --> 01:10:19,116 Speaker 4: all the time. And he played a lot of gigs 1128 01:10:19,156 --> 01:10:21,396 Speaker 4: with me in New York in the early days. It 1129 01:10:21,516 --> 01:10:26,316 Speaker 4: was a coterie of young musicians, Herbie Hancock and Ron 1130 01:10:26,396 --> 01:10:34,916 Speaker 4: Carter and Tony Williams, Jack Pete Laroque. Yeah, I knew 1131 01:10:34,916 --> 01:10:38,156 Speaker 4: Grimes He was a sweetheart. Yeah, And I also knew 1132 01:10:38,236 --> 01:10:41,916 Speaker 4: him after he had had that, he came back out 1133 01:10:41,956 --> 01:10:45,356 Speaker 4: here and was on scared row or something. I ran 1134 01:10:45,396 --> 01:10:49,916 Speaker 4: into him later after he was being second coming, you know, 1135 01:10:50,236 --> 01:10:55,516 Speaker 4: and he was very still, very sweet but quiet, you know. Yeah, 1136 01:10:55,516 --> 01:10:57,596 Speaker 4: I knew him. Something I want to tell you about 1137 01:10:57,876 --> 01:11:01,556 Speaker 4: Buddy Collette is that he was one of the guys 1138 01:11:01,596 --> 01:11:05,356 Speaker 4: for the Underground Railroad. He would take people to another 1139 01:11:06,036 --> 01:11:09,956 Speaker 4: kind of place, you know, meaning that he was playing 1140 01:11:09,956 --> 01:11:14,276 Speaker 4: on Groucho Mark's show. Groucher liked him and they would 1141 01:11:14,316 --> 01:11:17,196 Speaker 4: go to lunch and stuff together. And he said, one 1142 01:11:17,276 --> 01:11:19,516 Speaker 4: day a guy came over to Groucher and said, Groucher, 1143 01:11:20,716 --> 01:11:23,396 Speaker 4: you know a big boy, you know from studios and stuff. 1144 01:11:23,436 --> 01:11:26,916 Speaker 4: He said, Groucher, where do you keep your money? Groucher said, 1145 01:11:27,036 --> 01:11:30,916 Speaker 4: I keep it in treasuries and grout Buddy was. Buddy 1146 01:11:30,916 --> 01:11:35,076 Speaker 4: told me the story and he said, well, doesn't pay 1147 01:11:35,196 --> 01:11:38,116 Speaker 4: very much, does it. Groucher says, it does if you 1148 01:11:38,156 --> 01:11:45,596 Speaker 4: have enough. So meaning that Buddy told me that, and 1149 01:11:45,676 --> 01:11:49,956 Speaker 4: I always wanted to. I tried to dabble in investing 1150 01:11:50,076 --> 01:11:52,476 Speaker 4: and stuff like that with a little chump change that 1151 01:11:52,516 --> 01:11:56,916 Speaker 4: I've had, and it never went so far, but I'm 1152 01:11:56,916 --> 01:12:01,356 Speaker 4: thinking about that now. With my little pennies and nickels dimes, 1153 01:12:01,836 --> 01:12:05,676 Speaker 4: I just put them in treasuries and see if I 1154 01:12:05,716 --> 01:12:12,956 Speaker 4: can get Dorothy's substraight. Now, but someday you need to 1155 01:12:12,956 --> 01:12:15,556 Speaker 4: talk to her because she she did a film on me. 1156 01:12:15,636 --> 01:12:18,436 Speaker 4: Did you ever see it? I didn't see Ers into Infinity. 1157 01:12:18,636 --> 01:12:21,356 Speaker 4: Find it right, put it down in your phone. Errors 1158 01:12:21,396 --> 01:12:27,476 Speaker 4: into Infinity. It's very very Booker's in there, everybody's in there. Yeah, 1159 01:12:27,996 --> 01:12:31,236 Speaker 4: but it collects in there, you know. So people talk 1160 01:12:31,276 --> 01:12:33,116 Speaker 4: to me about writing a book all the time. But 1161 01:12:34,156 --> 01:12:37,796 Speaker 4: I watched her film in uh a big ears in Knoxville. 1162 01:12:38,276 --> 01:12:41,876 Speaker 4: We played a concert with Jason Moran and Larry Grenadere's 1163 01:12:42,116 --> 01:12:48,756 Speaker 4: such an Eric Harlan and they showed Dorothy's film and 1164 01:12:48,796 --> 01:12:51,916 Speaker 4: it brought I was had tears all during the film 1165 01:12:51,956 --> 01:12:55,116 Speaker 4: throughout it, and it's it's two hours of you can 1166 01:12:55,156 --> 01:12:59,276 Speaker 4: get it on Amazon or something eras Into Infinity. It's 1167 01:12:59,276 --> 01:13:01,516 Speaker 4: worth seeing. Yes, a lot of history. 1168 01:13:02,276 --> 01:13:04,076 Speaker 2: There is a question I'd like to ask, just because 1169 01:13:04,396 --> 01:13:07,596 Speaker 2: you know, having grown up in South Los Angeles, myself 1170 01:13:07,636 --> 01:13:11,916 Speaker 2: and I always heard about Central Avenue, being as you're 1171 01:13:11,916 --> 01:13:15,076 Speaker 2: from Memphis and you had beal Street, and you were 1172 01:13:15,076 --> 01:13:17,156 Speaker 2: out here in Central Avenue was still something of a 1173 01:13:17,196 --> 01:13:18,236 Speaker 2: lot being alive. 1174 01:13:18,356 --> 01:13:19,236 Speaker 4: Towards the end of it. 1175 01:13:19,316 --> 01:13:23,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, what was what was Central Avenue like? And how 1176 01:13:23,196 --> 01:13:25,436 Speaker 1: did that compare to a place like Beal Street. 1177 01:13:25,956 --> 01:13:29,676 Speaker 4: I would go play these sessions. Uh, there was still 1178 01:13:29,716 --> 01:13:33,116 Speaker 4: some remnants of it. I'll leave you with something really interesting. 1179 01:13:34,156 --> 01:13:37,796 Speaker 4: Nat Cole was playing over the bird was Colman Hawkins 1180 01:13:37,876 --> 01:13:41,436 Speaker 4: was would play over there too. Dig this Colman Hawkins 1181 01:13:41,476 --> 01:13:43,436 Speaker 4: was living over there. And I don't know what that 1182 01:13:43,516 --> 01:13:46,036 Speaker 4: area is called now. It's over by sc but it's 1183 01:13:46,356 --> 01:13:49,156 Speaker 4: a little loftier up in the up up in the 1184 01:13:49,236 --> 01:13:54,036 Speaker 4: Adams district over there by the little little leafy over there. 1185 01:13:54,516 --> 01:13:54,716 Speaker 3: You know. 1186 01:13:54,756 --> 01:13:57,476 Speaker 4: I guess the white folks would move further west or something. 1187 01:13:57,516 --> 01:14:01,436 Speaker 4: But Colman was living in this excuse me, in this 1188 01:14:02,836 --> 01:14:05,516 Speaker 4: room in house. You know, they had this big old mansions. 1189 01:14:05,516 --> 01:14:08,676 Speaker 4: They turned him into rooms and stuff. And he would 1190 01:14:08,716 --> 01:14:11,876 Speaker 4: come home at night from playing on Central Avenue, and 1191 01:14:11,916 --> 01:14:14,276 Speaker 4: he had a chrystler and he'd leave his windows down 1192 01:14:14,316 --> 01:14:16,116 Speaker 4: in his car because you know, it's hot in the 1193 01:14:16,156 --> 01:14:18,116 Speaker 4: summer and so, and he have his horn on the 1194 01:14:18,116 --> 01:14:21,316 Speaker 4: back seat and he go upstairs and go to bed. 1195 01:14:21,836 --> 01:14:23,316 Speaker 4: So what do you think happened to his horn? 1196 01:14:24,636 --> 01:14:25,036 Speaker 1: Stolen? 1197 01:14:25,716 --> 01:14:29,476 Speaker 4: Never? Never? No, because that's Colemenhawkins and he's fuel in 1198 01:14:29,516 --> 01:14:33,316 Speaker 4: the universe. And the pimps and the drug dealers. No, 1199 01:14:33,516 --> 01:14:36,236 Speaker 4: don't mess with that horn because he's a holy man. 1200 01:14:37,756 --> 01:14:43,756 Speaker 4: His horn was never tampered with. That's that's deep to me. Man. 1201 01:14:44,036 --> 01:14:47,596 Speaker 4: You know, people know some places, some things you don't 1202 01:14:47,636 --> 01:14:51,716 Speaker 4: mess with. You know. You know, it's like, don't put 1203 01:14:51,756 --> 01:14:56,516 Speaker 4: this stuff on the air because it's not presentable, and 1204 01:14:56,516 --> 01:14:59,596 Speaker 4: and the stuff that I'm talking about, uh, you know, 1205 01:14:59,796 --> 01:15:03,836 Speaker 4: it's it's my life and nobody's interested in it. And 1206 01:15:03,996 --> 01:15:08,236 Speaker 4: h but what I've seen, what I've seen, and what 1207 01:15:08,276 --> 01:15:12,036 Speaker 4: I understand from the situation, I know what's going on, 1208 01:15:12,436 --> 01:15:15,076 Speaker 4: but I can't say what's going on because those who 1209 01:15:15,196 --> 01:15:18,756 Speaker 4: say don't those who know don't say, and those who 1210 01:15:18,796 --> 01:15:21,876 Speaker 4: say don't know. But I know what's happening. I know 1211 01:15:21,916 --> 01:15:26,636 Speaker 4: what time it is. That's why I lived quietly away 1212 01:15:26,636 --> 01:15:29,676 Speaker 4: from the maddening crowd. And I don't bother nobody, and 1213 01:15:29,716 --> 01:15:30,876 Speaker 4: I expect the same. 1214 01:15:31,116 --> 01:15:35,316 Speaker 1: You talk about. You guys just worked together. 1215 01:15:35,636 --> 01:15:40,236 Speaker 4: He was a freedom fighter from Hungary and he came 1216 01:15:40,276 --> 01:15:45,876 Speaker 4: over here and I met him when I first joined Chico, 1217 01:15:46,316 --> 01:15:48,716 Speaker 4: Chico had him in the band for a couple of weeks, 1218 01:15:48,716 --> 01:15:53,436 Speaker 4: but Chico fired him and got some guy, journeyman guitar 1219 01:15:53,516 --> 01:15:59,396 Speaker 4: player from Philadelphia to come. And so when Chico started 1220 01:15:59,476 --> 01:16:05,876 Speaker 4: up again, I was gonna leave because he was playing straight. 1221 01:16:06,036 --> 01:16:08,636 Speaker 4: I had some good, good arrangement stuff, but I had 1222 01:16:08,716 --> 01:16:12,956 Speaker 4: I was, I had this be in my bonnet to uh, 1223 01:16:13,036 --> 01:16:15,036 Speaker 4: to light the thing up I wanted. I had to 1224 01:16:15,076 --> 01:16:17,716 Speaker 4: play this indigenous art for him how it was given 1225 01:16:17,716 --> 01:16:21,316 Speaker 4: to me. And he said, no, you can stay, Please stay. 1226 01:16:21,596 --> 01:16:25,156 Speaker 4: He said, let's organize the band around what you want 1227 01:16:25,196 --> 01:16:27,476 Speaker 4: to do. We made those records passing through Man from 1228 01:16:27,476 --> 01:16:31,396 Speaker 4: two worlds, different stuff anyway, and he said, who you 1229 01:16:31,396 --> 01:16:33,196 Speaker 4: wanted the band? I said, the first guy we're going 1230 01:16:33,236 --> 01:16:35,196 Speaker 4: to get is that guitar player you fired. 1231 01:16:35,716 --> 01:16:35,956 Speaker 3: You know. 1232 01:16:35,956 --> 01:16:38,316 Speaker 4: It was a good boar. And I brought Albert Stinson then, 1233 01:16:38,356 --> 01:16:41,476 Speaker 4: who grew up with Bobby Hutchison over in Pasadena. So 1234 01:16:41,676 --> 01:16:44,636 Speaker 4: I got those guys and uh, and I brought a 1235 01:16:44,676 --> 01:16:47,916 Speaker 4: guy out from Memphis, Garnet Brown, a trombone player who 1236 01:16:48,036 --> 01:16:52,116 Speaker 4: played with us for a while. Yeah and yeah, it 1237 01:16:52,156 --> 01:16:57,196 Speaker 4: was like that, what was your question? He was great, 1238 01:16:57,236 --> 01:16:58,836 Speaker 4: He was a freedom fighter. He was out there in 1239 01:16:58,916 --> 01:17:02,276 Speaker 4: the streets in Hungary. Came over here with a broken heart. 1240 01:17:02,716 --> 01:17:04,756 Speaker 4: They lived in a camp somewhere, he told me. Came 1241 01:17:04,756 --> 01:17:06,996 Speaker 4: around the corner and there was his fiance and the 1242 01:17:07,076 --> 01:17:10,116 Speaker 4: mud with some other guy. And he never healed from that, 1243 01:17:10,316 --> 01:17:14,876 Speaker 4: and he he was devoted to the music. But later 1244 01:17:14,956 --> 01:17:17,996 Speaker 4: on fast laying got him out here, you know. But 1245 01:17:18,116 --> 01:17:20,556 Speaker 4: the beautiful thing is, we like fast cars. We used 1246 01:17:20,596 --> 01:17:25,076 Speaker 4: to raise Porsches and Ferraris and stuff and went and 1247 01:17:25,556 --> 01:17:28,156 Speaker 4: we weren't no longer together. But he was living out here, 1248 01:17:28,156 --> 01:17:30,116 Speaker 4: and I'd moved back to here when I moved to 1249 01:17:30,156 --> 01:17:33,236 Speaker 4: Malibu in sixty nine. And uh, there used to be 1250 01:17:33,276 --> 01:17:36,876 Speaker 4: a freight company called Flying Tiger, and you could fly 1251 01:17:36,996 --> 01:17:39,436 Speaker 4: your car out from New York for three hundred dollars. 1252 01:17:39,476 --> 01:17:41,836 Speaker 4: So I would take my car out to La Guardio 1253 01:17:41,996 --> 01:17:44,676 Speaker 4: Kennedy wherever it was, and they put my Ferrari on 1254 01:17:45,596 --> 01:17:48,916 Speaker 4: a thing and I'd fly out on tw and i'd 1255 01:17:48,916 --> 01:17:51,516 Speaker 4: go to the freight and get my car and drive 1256 01:17:51,596 --> 01:17:55,036 Speaker 4: up the coast, you know. So but one day something 1257 01:17:55,036 --> 01:17:57,396 Speaker 4: happened to my car, and I called Pietro Rulei, who 1258 01:17:57,476 --> 01:18:00,396 Speaker 4: was who ran Hollywood Sports Cars, and he came to 1259 01:18:01,236 --> 01:18:04,836 Speaker 4: the straight and helped me out, and the Boar came 1260 01:18:04,876 --> 01:18:08,236 Speaker 4: with him because we hit We were in different camps 1261 01:18:08,236 --> 01:18:11,076 Speaker 4: by that time, and we had such a beautiful reunion 1262 01:18:11,316 --> 01:18:14,276 Speaker 4: and we made a record together. I can't remember that record. 1263 01:18:14,716 --> 01:18:15,596 Speaker 1: Is that waves? 1264 01:18:15,836 --> 01:18:21,036 Speaker 4: Yeah, he's on that. But the best music so far 1265 01:18:21,156 --> 01:18:27,156 Speaker 4: has been Don's latest record with me. So I'm happy 1266 01:18:27,236 --> 01:18:30,676 Speaker 4: that in my lifetime I've been able to grow in 1267 01:18:30,796 --> 01:18:34,116 Speaker 4: the music and not bore myself or others. 1268 01:18:34,396 --> 01:18:35,916 Speaker 1: You know from my ears. 1269 01:18:35,916 --> 01:18:40,316 Speaker 2: From my ears, the way I hear you and Gollo, 1270 01:18:40,476 --> 01:18:42,316 Speaker 2: it's the same as you and Jason Moran, like you 1271 01:18:42,356 --> 01:18:44,636 Speaker 2: and Jason Moran sound incredible to me. 1272 01:18:45,396 --> 01:18:49,956 Speaker 4: I was playing a concert at Carnegie Hall with an 1273 01:18:49,956 --> 01:18:53,916 Speaker 4: Indian group I have with zakiir Hussein and Eric Harlan, 1274 01:18:54,596 --> 01:18:58,636 Speaker 4: and I didn't know Jason, but he came to that concert, 1275 01:18:59,196 --> 01:19:03,876 Speaker 4: and Jason came and he said and so he told 1276 01:19:03,996 --> 01:19:06,596 Speaker 4: Eric he wanted to play with me, and I didn't 1277 01:19:06,596 --> 01:19:10,116 Speaker 4: really know his music. But then Jerry Allen was playing 1278 01:19:10,116 --> 01:19:14,076 Speaker 4: with me. He was a wonderful pianist. Uh and she 1279 01:19:14,196 --> 01:19:17,036 Speaker 4: got her bookings mixed up and she can only do 1280 01:19:17,116 --> 01:19:20,916 Speaker 4: half of a long European tour so I didn't want 1281 01:19:20,956 --> 01:19:22,796 Speaker 4: to do that because you know, as I said, we 1282 01:19:23,276 --> 01:19:26,116 Speaker 4: come back, go exploring, come back, not the same. But 1283 01:19:26,156 --> 01:19:28,516 Speaker 4: I want to build on what we did, what we 1284 01:19:28,516 --> 01:19:32,196 Speaker 4: were doing, and keep going higher. And so Eric called 1285 01:19:32,236 --> 01:19:35,036 Speaker 4: me and said, Jason wants to play with you, because 1286 01:19:35,036 --> 01:19:38,516 Speaker 4: he'd already said that, and I didn't say anything, and 1287 01:19:38,556 --> 01:19:41,476 Speaker 4: he said he understands. And when he said that, I 1288 01:19:41,516 --> 01:19:44,836 Speaker 4: said welcome. So that's when Jason came in two thousand 1289 01:19:44,876 --> 01:19:51,036 Speaker 4: and six and he, uh, yeah, we've had some wonderful 1290 01:19:51,076 --> 01:19:54,436 Speaker 4: moments together. Yeah, kind of like what I had with Higgins, 1291 01:19:54,516 --> 01:19:58,236 Speaker 4: you know that period in the earlier period with the 1292 01:19:58,276 --> 01:20:04,276 Speaker 4: original quartet, you know, with Keith and Jack, that was special. Yeah. 1293 01:20:05,316 --> 01:20:07,196 Speaker 3: Did you get to play with scottland Fower? 1294 01:20:07,916 --> 01:20:11,276 Speaker 4: Very much? Scott and I were best friends, you know. 1295 01:20:11,356 --> 01:20:13,156 Speaker 4: He he also was a clarinet player. 1296 01:20:13,196 --> 01:20:15,876 Speaker 3: Did you know that I knew it came from uh 1297 01:20:16,396 --> 01:20:17,396 Speaker 3: lyrical melodic? 1298 01:20:17,636 --> 01:20:20,556 Speaker 4: Yeah he got oh yeah, yeah, he he was. He 1299 01:20:20,676 --> 01:20:23,516 Speaker 4: was fantastic. He's he set a standard that I haven't 1300 01:20:23,516 --> 01:20:28,516 Speaker 4: seen nobody surpass yet. And uh so, although I was 1301 01:20:28,516 --> 01:20:31,836 Speaker 4: in Memphis with all that rich community, Phineas Newborn and 1302 01:20:32,196 --> 01:20:34,556 Speaker 4: all of that, and then when I came out here. 1303 01:20:34,596 --> 01:20:38,196 Speaker 4: There was on thatt Eric Dolphine and Jerald Wilton's big 1304 01:20:38,236 --> 01:20:40,116 Speaker 4: band with Harold Land and a lot of a lot 1305 01:20:40,156 --> 01:20:43,316 Speaker 4: of people. And then then came these young guys you 1306 01:20:43,356 --> 01:20:49,276 Speaker 4: know down Cherry and Charlie Hayden and uh, Scotty. Scotty 1307 01:20:49,276 --> 01:20:52,396 Speaker 4: and I played together a lot, a lot of gigs, 1308 01:20:52,396 --> 01:20:55,116 Speaker 4: and then he got a call to come back to 1309 01:20:55,196 --> 01:20:58,396 Speaker 4: New York. Uh that's how he left here. You won't 1310 01:20:58,436 --> 01:21:00,876 Speaker 4: believe this. He he got a call to play with 1311 01:21:00,956 --> 01:21:04,396 Speaker 4: a singer, Dick Himes, and he was gonna be Elvin 1312 01:21:04,516 --> 01:21:08,116 Speaker 4: was playing drums, come on yow. So that that's that 1313 01:21:08,196 --> 01:21:10,436 Speaker 4: was a trio back dig Hymes. I don't know who's 1314 01:21:10,436 --> 01:21:14,396 Speaker 4: playing piano. But then later on he morphed into Bill 1315 01:21:14,436 --> 01:21:16,956 Speaker 4: Evans and then he he came out here on a 1316 01:21:16,996 --> 01:21:19,436 Speaker 4: tour later with Ornette. You know. 1317 01:21:19,676 --> 01:21:19,796 Speaker 3: So. 1318 01:21:20,316 --> 01:21:23,196 Speaker 4: But we played just gigs around town. And I had 1319 01:21:23,196 --> 01:21:25,316 Speaker 4: a gig at a place called the Dragon Wick in 1320 01:21:25,356 --> 01:21:28,916 Speaker 4: Pasadena for many years when I was in college, and 1321 01:21:29,836 --> 01:21:32,476 Speaker 4: Scotty and I would play there. Yeah, Higgins, you. 1322 01:21:32,436 --> 01:21:34,356 Speaker 3: Know, was he playing that style? 1323 01:21:34,796 --> 01:21:34,996 Speaker 1: Yeah? 1324 01:21:35,076 --> 01:21:37,796 Speaker 4: Then yeah he could do that. Yeah, he took that. 1325 01:21:38,036 --> 01:21:40,116 Speaker 4: You know what he did one day he came over 1326 01:21:40,116 --> 01:21:42,916 Speaker 4: to my house near sc because I'd moved off that 1327 01:21:42,996 --> 01:21:47,436 Speaker 4: campus because I couldn't deal with that, And and he had 1328 01:21:47,436 --> 01:21:53,476 Speaker 4: written out Bird solo to uh, just friends. No, well 1329 01:21:52,836 --> 01:21:55,116 Speaker 4: I don't. He wrote it out for me. You know. 1330 01:21:55,196 --> 01:21:58,156 Speaker 4: He was like a gift to me, you know, because 1331 01:21:58,156 --> 01:22:01,076 Speaker 4: there's such a beautiful solo that Bird plays on just Friends. 1332 01:22:01,396 --> 01:22:04,916 Speaker 4: But Scotty know he was. He was like one of 1333 01:22:04,956 --> 01:22:07,796 Speaker 4: a kind, you know, as Booker was, as as so 1334 01:22:07,916 --> 01:22:11,676 Speaker 4: many of these great saints are, you know, saints and sages. 1335 01:22:11,716 --> 01:22:16,716 Speaker 4: That's what came through here, and the country doesn't know 1336 01:22:17,236 --> 01:22:21,756 Speaker 4: it's indigenous art form or appreciates it, and so sometimes 1337 01:22:21,796 --> 01:22:25,316 Speaker 4: it kind of blows me away. And so I live 1338 01:22:25,356 --> 01:22:28,356 Speaker 4: in the woods now and I don't take no prisoners. 1339 01:22:28,396 --> 01:22:28,676 Speaker 4: You know. 1340 01:22:30,156 --> 01:22:33,116 Speaker 3: Did you meet the Beach Boys through meditation? No? 1341 01:22:33,276 --> 01:22:37,796 Speaker 4: Beach Boys were fans of mine. They they had heard 1342 01:22:37,836 --> 01:22:42,356 Speaker 4: that I was a meditator. And Mike Love is born 1343 01:22:42,396 --> 01:22:45,036 Speaker 4: on my same birthday. He's three years younger than me, 1344 01:22:45,236 --> 01:22:51,196 Speaker 4: March fifteenth, and they were seeking me out and I 1345 01:22:51,236 --> 01:22:54,596 Speaker 4: didn't know their music. And then someone played a Wild 1346 01:22:54,636 --> 01:22:56,356 Speaker 4: Honey for me and I like that, and then they 1347 01:22:56,356 --> 01:22:59,516 Speaker 4: played pet Sounds and that was it. And then Mike 1348 01:22:59,596 --> 01:23:03,316 Speaker 4: Love was always coming to Malibu with fruits and offerings 1349 01:23:03,316 --> 01:23:08,716 Speaker 4: and stuff, you know, and so we became close. But 1350 01:23:08,756 --> 01:23:13,396 Speaker 4: I hadn't know I left Big, I left Malibu. I 1351 01:23:13,476 --> 01:23:15,396 Speaker 4: was hanging out with Peter Fonda when he made that 1352 01:23:15,476 --> 01:23:18,636 Speaker 4: film Easy Rioter and Larry Hagman all that in the 1353 01:23:18,676 --> 01:23:24,636 Speaker 4: Colony and Burgess marriage. But when Peter made that film, 1354 01:23:24,636 --> 01:23:27,556 Speaker 4: we would go sailing. A guy named John Kelly, who 1355 01:23:27,596 --> 01:23:31,036 Speaker 4: ran the studio, would give us his sailboat, and uh, 1356 01:23:31,196 --> 01:23:33,916 Speaker 4: we would go sailing. And I didn't have any so 1357 01:23:33,956 --> 01:23:38,236 Speaker 4: I left Malibu and I didn't have any economics. So 1358 01:23:38,956 --> 01:23:41,076 Speaker 4: we were living in Big Sir Dorothy and me, and 1359 01:23:41,436 --> 01:23:46,156 Speaker 4: we built a humble, simple house up there, Japanese country house, 1360 01:23:46,796 --> 01:23:51,836 Speaker 4: and Mike Love. They made Brian's studio available to me, 1361 01:23:52,196 --> 01:23:55,396 Speaker 4: and that's when I made, uh some of those records 1362 01:23:55,396 --> 01:23:57,956 Speaker 4: that you may may not know about. And the Beach 1363 01:23:57,996 --> 01:24:01,156 Speaker 4: Boys sang on some of those records with me. That 1364 01:24:01,476 --> 01:24:04,276 Speaker 4: record waves is the Waves of I don't know what 1365 01:24:04,356 --> 01:24:07,076 Speaker 4: it was, but anyway, all life is. 1366 01:24:07,036 --> 01:24:11,236 Speaker 3: One yeah life ye warm waters. 1367 01:24:11,356 --> 01:24:15,036 Speaker 4: Yeah. They but they gave me their studio, an engineer 1368 01:24:15,116 --> 01:24:17,476 Speaker 4: and and Brian would be upstairs in his bed with 1369 01:24:17,516 --> 01:24:21,156 Speaker 4: the sandbox and stuff, and he'd come downstairs and started singing. 1370 01:24:21,156 --> 01:24:23,036 Speaker 4: He called the boys and they all come over and 1371 01:24:23,676 --> 01:24:26,796 Speaker 4: we'd made they sing on my record. So that was 1372 01:24:26,836 --> 01:24:29,436 Speaker 4: a beautiful thing. You know. I had an idea years 1373 01:24:29,436 --> 01:24:32,236 Speaker 4: ago when I used to play what's the club call 1374 01:24:32,356 --> 01:24:36,756 Speaker 4: over there? Shelley's Manhole or something, but anyway, and around 1375 01:24:36,836 --> 01:24:38,796 Speaker 4: the back street that was a little in the alley 1376 01:24:38,836 --> 01:24:40,956 Speaker 4: back there were some little clubs back they were starting 1377 01:24:41,036 --> 01:24:46,356 Speaker 4: up in the in the doors and uh and and uh. 1378 01:24:46,436 --> 01:24:48,636 Speaker 4: Roger McGuinn what was his girl? Called the Birds they 1379 01:24:48,676 --> 01:24:51,876 Speaker 4: were So I liked the Birds, and so I was 1380 01:24:51,916 --> 01:24:53,756 Speaker 4: on Columbia. They were on Columbia. So I told a 1381 01:24:53,796 --> 01:24:56,876 Speaker 4: guy named Billy James, who was a functionary Columbian, and 1382 01:24:56,916 --> 01:24:58,876 Speaker 4: I said, man, I want to do a record with 1383 01:24:58,956 --> 01:25:01,156 Speaker 4: these guys, the Birds and me. And he took it 1384 01:25:01,236 --> 01:25:05,396 Speaker 4: upstairs and they said never. We're not going to let 1385 01:25:05,476 --> 01:25:06,676 Speaker 4: that happen. You know. 1386 01:25:07,356 --> 01:25:12,156 Speaker 3: I'm sure Crosby was a fan Davy Cross and as 1387 01:25:12,196 --> 01:25:15,956 Speaker 3: a friend he was big friends with Spencer Dryden, who 1388 01:25:16,156 --> 01:25:19,396 Speaker 3: played drums with the Airplane and Spencer and I used 1389 01:25:19,436 --> 01:25:21,116 Speaker 3: to play jazz gieks together. 1390 01:25:21,076 --> 01:25:22,916 Speaker 1: Before he was in the airplane two four. 1391 01:25:22,836 --> 01:25:24,636 Speaker 4: Yeah, before he was an airplane and then he went 1392 01:25:24,716 --> 01:25:27,676 Speaker 4: up there. Yeah, and they would always meet me whenever 1393 01:25:27,716 --> 01:25:30,356 Speaker 4: I came to town. He and Grace had hooked up, 1394 01:25:30,956 --> 01:25:35,316 Speaker 4: and uh, they'd bring me offerings and stuff, put peru 1395 01:25:35,476 --> 01:25:37,636 Speaker 4: on the table. You know. 1396 01:25:38,716 --> 01:25:39,996 Speaker 2: One thing I wanted to go back to is you 1397 01:25:39,996 --> 01:25:44,196 Speaker 2: mentioned the plantation in West Arkansas, West Memphis, Arkansas. 1398 01:25:44,276 --> 01:25:48,316 Speaker 1: Excuse me? And is it true? Elvis would come in. 1399 01:25:48,636 --> 01:25:50,916 Speaker 4: He would come in every night to hear hear his 1400 01:25:51,036 --> 01:25:54,796 Speaker 4: play because he loved Calvin. And Calvin was a showman too. 1401 01:25:54,836 --> 01:25:57,516 Speaker 4: He could he could play the guitar, and he could 1402 01:25:57,556 --> 01:25:59,436 Speaker 4: jump real high in the sky and he shake his 1403 01:25:59,516 --> 01:26:02,356 Speaker 4: legs and stuff. And Elvis couldn't do that with the guitar, 1404 01:26:02,436 --> 01:26:06,076 Speaker 4: but he saw el so Calvin shaking his legs, so 1405 01:26:06,116 --> 01:26:10,796 Speaker 4: he copped that. And he and he was always at 1406 01:26:10,996 --> 01:26:14,916 Speaker 4: There's a book called uh quiet as his cap uh 1407 01:26:14,956 --> 01:26:18,356 Speaker 4: and uh I think Calvin wrote it about Phineas and uh, 1408 01:26:18,436 --> 01:26:20,836 Speaker 4: but Elvis is in there. He would come over their 1409 01:26:20,916 --> 01:26:24,236 Speaker 4: house for death. Elvis was a truck driver. He drove 1410 01:26:24,396 --> 01:26:28,796 Speaker 4: drove some kind of he was iceman, electrician or electrical. 1411 01:26:29,196 --> 01:26:31,916 Speaker 4: He drove some kind of trucks and uh, but he 1412 01:26:31,996 --> 01:26:33,716 Speaker 4: was over there every night to hear flee. You know. 1413 01:26:34,356 --> 01:26:35,876 Speaker 4: He loved he loved Calvin. 1414 01:26:35,996 --> 01:26:38,316 Speaker 1: You know, did he throw you when he became what he? 1415 01:26:38,596 --> 01:26:41,956 Speaker 4: Yeah, it did throw me. One day in Montecito, where 1416 01:26:41,996 --> 01:26:46,076 Speaker 4: we lived, I ran into uh, Priscilla at some big 1417 01:26:46,116 --> 01:26:51,276 Speaker 4: party the tennis buddy was having. He had big great 1418 01:26:51,396 --> 01:26:55,156 Speaker 4: Gaspia state and stuff like that, George Washington Smith, big 1419 01:26:55,156 --> 01:26:59,276 Speaker 4: old Spanish flea. Anyway, I ran a lot of people there, 1420 01:26:59,276 --> 01:27:02,636 Speaker 4: but bash Car menning. Do you know about him? He ran? 1421 01:27:02,916 --> 01:27:06,516 Speaker 4: He ran what was it called? It wasn't capital, It 1422 01:27:06,516 --> 01:27:09,036 Speaker 4: was the whole e m I he wrote, he ran. 1423 01:27:09,596 --> 01:27:11,516 Speaker 4: I said, man, how did you do that? He's Indian? 1424 01:27:11,956 --> 01:27:14,076 Speaker 4: From from Indian? I said, how did you do that? 1425 01:27:14,356 --> 01:27:16,516 Speaker 4: He said, old Charles. I just failed up. 1426 01:27:17,836 --> 01:27:18,236 Speaker 3: That. 1427 01:27:18,236 --> 01:27:22,796 Speaker 4: That's cute that he could say that Priscilla. So I said, 1428 01:27:23,396 --> 01:27:25,636 Speaker 4: I saw Priscilla at this party. So I said, Priscilla, 1429 01:27:25,716 --> 01:27:27,716 Speaker 4: can I speak to you? And she looked at me 1430 01:27:27,756 --> 01:27:30,476 Speaker 4: and she said, she said, this guy's hitting on me, 1431 01:27:30,596 --> 01:27:32,076 Speaker 4: you know, I mean I could see in her eyes 1432 01:27:32,116 --> 01:27:35,956 Speaker 4: when she was She said sure. Yeah. So we went 1433 01:27:36,676 --> 01:27:39,196 Speaker 4: side and talked. You know, I said, I'm from Memphis. 1434 01:27:39,196 --> 01:27:43,316 Speaker 4: She said, you're from Memphis. She didn't believe it. I said, 1435 01:27:43,316 --> 01:27:46,476 Speaker 4: you know, I always had problems with this Elvis thing. 1436 01:27:46,596 --> 01:27:49,476 Speaker 4: You know, he took another man's song, you know, and 1437 01:27:49,516 --> 01:27:53,316 Speaker 4: he took it to the penthouse, you know, and Capital 1438 01:27:53,356 --> 01:27:55,756 Speaker 4: Gains and all that stuff. I said, how did he 1439 01:27:55,836 --> 01:27:59,156 Speaker 4: feel about that? And she said to me, he felt 1440 01:27:59,276 --> 01:28:02,476 Speaker 4: very inadequate. And she said he would go around to 1441 01:28:02,556 --> 01:28:05,316 Speaker 4: the black churches on Sunday and put watts one hundred 1442 01:28:05,356 --> 01:28:10,036 Speaker 4: dollars bills in the in the offering. Yeah. So when 1443 01:28:10,076 --> 01:28:12,676 Speaker 4: she said that, he kind of disarmed me, you know, 1444 01:28:12,996 --> 01:28:18,316 Speaker 4: because I didn't. I didn't know him except I used 1445 01:28:18,356 --> 01:28:20,796 Speaker 4: to record a lot over at Sun Records because they 1446 01:28:20,836 --> 01:28:23,316 Speaker 4: didn't have us horns come in and play behind stuff. 1447 01:28:24,716 --> 01:28:27,036 Speaker 4: But I didn't. I never played on his records. But 1448 01:28:28,436 --> 01:28:30,796 Speaker 4: he would come to the Plantation in every night to 1449 01:28:30,916 --> 01:28:34,636 Speaker 4: check us out. It was like, is like looking behind 1450 01:28:34,716 --> 01:28:35,716 Speaker 4: looking behind the door? 1451 01:28:35,836 --> 01:28:35,956 Speaker 1: You know? 1452 01:28:36,876 --> 01:28:39,556 Speaker 3: Was it a rough scene like in the Memphis Club? 1453 01:28:39,636 --> 01:28:42,356 Speaker 3: Did did you like have to fight your way out? Sometimes? 1454 01:28:42,596 --> 01:28:44,916 Speaker 4: Well, it was very rough in the sense that with 1455 01:28:45,036 --> 01:28:47,476 Speaker 4: Willie Mitchell, I was playing his band and we had 1456 01:28:47,516 --> 01:28:49,756 Speaker 4: to come across the bridge at one hundred and twenty 1457 01:28:50,316 --> 01:28:54,676 Speaker 4: miles an hour with the with the John Darmes whatever 1458 01:28:54,676 --> 01:28:57,316 Speaker 4: you call those guys following us, you know, because the 1459 01:28:57,356 --> 01:29:00,716 Speaker 4: word had gotten out that we were socializing, you know, 1460 01:29:00,796 --> 01:29:03,916 Speaker 4: and they didn't they didn't like that. You know. Let 1461 01:29:03,956 --> 01:29:08,076 Speaker 4: me tell you something funny about Central Avenue. So nat 1462 01:29:08,116 --> 01:29:11,596 Speaker 4: Cole was playing over there too, and one night the 1463 01:29:11,636 --> 01:29:15,636 Speaker 4: club he was playing in, Cap Calloi came in and 1464 01:29:15,676 --> 01:29:17,996 Speaker 4: so he ran over to his table. Oh, mister Callierry, 1465 01:29:18,036 --> 01:29:20,236 Speaker 4: oh please please, I'm so happy to meet you. And 1466 01:29:20,276 --> 01:29:22,916 Speaker 4: he was bowing down and stuff, you know, and he said, 1467 01:29:22,916 --> 01:29:26,316 Speaker 4: I'm I'm playing piano. He said, I'm just starting to sing, 1468 01:29:26,436 --> 01:29:29,316 Speaker 4: you know. Can you give me any advice, any anything 1469 01:29:29,356 --> 01:29:33,436 Speaker 4: to help me? You know? He said yes, he none 1470 01:29:33,476 --> 01:29:43,036 Speaker 4: see it. And that took that to the bank, you know, 1471 01:29:43,076 --> 01:29:45,236 Speaker 4: he just took it. He just so he heard that. 1472 01:29:45,436 --> 01:29:50,676 Speaker 4: So that's what you have to do. Yeah. Yeah, someone 1473 01:29:50,716 --> 01:29:54,116 Speaker 4: referred to tont in my record. I was shocked the 1474 01:29:54,156 --> 01:29:58,356 Speaker 4: new record Dorothy Harley or something sent me. The guy 1475 01:29:58,436 --> 01:30:01,876 Speaker 4: said this record. He said, I love nat Cole. He 1476 01:30:01,916 --> 01:30:04,956 Speaker 4: said this record is smooth like that coal, but it's 1477 01:30:04,996 --> 01:30:10,196 Speaker 4: not lightweight, you know. Yeah, So that's that's good to 1478 01:30:10,196 --> 01:30:14,036 Speaker 4: pull off something that it's kind of like we did 1479 01:30:14,036 --> 01:30:17,636 Speaker 4: in the sixes. You get under the transom before it's illegal. 1480 01:30:20,676 --> 01:30:23,196 Speaker 4: Don you could? You could take this record a long 1481 01:30:23,236 --> 01:30:27,356 Speaker 4: way if you could find the right conduit and somebody 1482 01:30:27,396 --> 01:30:30,236 Speaker 4: like this brother here who cares. But there are people 1483 01:30:30,236 --> 01:30:33,196 Speaker 4: out there, are sensitives. See. My notion is that they're 1484 01:30:33,596 --> 01:30:36,756 Speaker 4: still sensitives in this world. And that thing up on 1485 01:30:36,796 --> 01:30:40,396 Speaker 4: the board on the wall there on the screen, says McIntosh. Well, 1486 01:30:40,396 --> 01:30:44,676 Speaker 4: when we were young kids, we loved McIntosh and Morants 1487 01:30:44,676 --> 01:30:47,756 Speaker 4: and we were trying to get the best equipment because 1488 01:30:47,796 --> 01:30:50,076 Speaker 4: we loved to play live, and what we heard live 1489 01:30:50,516 --> 01:30:53,116 Speaker 4: you couldn't hear on these little speakers and stuff, you know. 1490 01:30:53,516 --> 01:30:57,316 Speaker 4: And J B. LANs and they had this big paragon 1491 01:30:57,436 --> 01:31:00,396 Speaker 4: speakers and stuff, you know. And so because all my 1492 01:31:00,516 --> 01:31:02,756 Speaker 4: life we were trying to put the pursuit was to 1493 01:31:02,796 --> 01:31:05,956 Speaker 4: get up so close to the music, you know, And 1494 01:31:06,396 --> 01:31:09,476 Speaker 4: this record that we just made it gets pretty close, 1495 01:31:09,636 --> 01:31:13,516 Speaker 4: you know. And I'm really I'll stand by it. 1496 01:31:13,676 --> 01:31:14,476 Speaker 3: Yeah, me too. 1497 01:31:14,716 --> 01:31:17,996 Speaker 1: It's a beautiful record. You heard it. Yeah, it's a 1498 01:31:18,076 --> 01:31:20,596 Speaker 1: gorgeous record. Thank you, it is, I mean, and you've 1499 01:31:20,596 --> 01:31:24,476 Speaker 1: made a lot of great music over the last decade, 1500 01:31:24,596 --> 01:31:27,636 Speaker 1: decade and a half. But this again record is very big. 1501 01:31:27,796 --> 01:31:32,556 Speaker 4: Big head off to Dawn because he he heard it 1502 01:31:32,596 --> 01:31:34,396 Speaker 4: and he knew what it was, and he heard us 1503 01:31:34,396 --> 01:31:36,676 Speaker 4: when when we were kids, you know, and he was 1504 01:31:36,676 --> 01:31:40,596 Speaker 4: a kid, and uh he he likes truth and love 1505 01:31:40,716 --> 01:31:42,236 Speaker 4: and that's a beautiful thing. 1506 01:31:43,796 --> 01:31:46,236 Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for doing this, Charles. I mean, 1507 01:31:46,276 --> 01:31:48,516 Speaker 2: what what, I don't even make difference. 1508 01:31:49,196 --> 01:31:50,196 Speaker 4: We do what you can do. 1509 01:31:50,276 --> 01:31:52,236 Speaker 1: Between you and Dorothy's absolute history. 1510 01:31:52,676 --> 01:31:54,516 Speaker 4: You need to talk to Dorothy, Man, you need to 1511 01:31:54,516 --> 01:32:01,436 Speaker 4: talk to her. You should watch the documentary Get It Infinity. Yeah, 1512 01:32:01,476 --> 01:32:04,676 Speaker 4: it's it's major. I just had tears the whole thing. Man. 1513 01:32:05,516 --> 01:32:07,956 Speaker 4: And uh some of the comments from the people, had 1514 01:32:07,956 --> 01:32:10,036 Speaker 4: a little Q and A after some of the comments, 1515 01:32:10,036 --> 01:32:14,556 Speaker 4: well beyond man, I didn't know anybody was listening. So 1516 01:32:14,916 --> 01:32:19,076 Speaker 4: I should I shouldn't complain or or I should just 1517 01:32:19,196 --> 01:32:20,156 Speaker 4: be thankful. 1518 01:32:21,516 --> 01:32:25,236 Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's I guess the point is it's probably 1519 01:32:25,276 --> 01:32:27,596 Speaker 3: having a greater effect than you think. 1520 01:32:29,036 --> 01:32:34,476 Speaker 4: What you're doing. Well, those guys say, show me. 1521 01:32:37,716 --> 01:32:39,716 Speaker 2: Thanks so much to the great Charles Lloyd for opening 1522 01:32:39,796 --> 01:32:42,116 Speaker 2: up to Don Wiz and myself about his time growing 1523 01:32:42,196 --> 01:32:46,836 Speaker 2: up in Tennessee, his experiences at usc and beyond. You 1524 01:32:46,836 --> 01:32:48,956 Speaker 2: can hear his new album This Guy will be there tomorrow, 1525 01:32:48,996 --> 01:32:51,756 Speaker 2: along with some of our other favorite tracks featuring or 1526 01:32:51,796 --> 01:32:55,396 Speaker 2: by Charles Lloyd at our playlist at broken record podcast 1527 01:32:55,436 --> 01:32:57,956 Speaker 2: dot com or in the show notes for this episode. 1528 01:32:58,436 --> 01:33:00,236 Speaker 2: You can also listen to this interview on other recent 1529 01:33:00,276 --> 01:33:03,796 Speaker 2: episodes at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast, and 1530 01:33:03,836 --> 01:33:06,156 Speaker 2: be sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken 1531 01:33:06,196 --> 01:33:09,796 Speaker 2: Record Pod. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. 1532 01:33:10,276 --> 01:33:13,156 Speaker 2: Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with 1533 01:33:13,316 --> 01:33:16,756 Speaker 2: marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer 1534 01:33:16,956 --> 01:33:21,316 Speaker 2: is Ben Tollinay. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. 1535 01:33:21,716 --> 01:33:24,516 Speaker 2: If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider 1536 01:33:24,556 --> 01:33:28,916 Speaker 2: subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription 1537 01:33:28,996 --> 01:33:31,756 Speaker 2: that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four 1538 01:33:31,916 --> 01:33:34,996 Speaker 2: ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus. 1539 01:33:34,756 --> 01:33:38,356 Speaker 1: On Apple podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, 1540 01:33:38,476 --> 01:33:40,116 Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate. 1541 01:33:39,956 --> 01:33:41,796 Speaker 2: And review us on your podcast app. 1542 01:33:42,076 --> 01:33:44,836 Speaker 1: Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.