WEBVTT - Surveillance Special: Behind the American Revolution

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keane. Daily

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<v Speaker 1>we bring you insight from the best in economics, finance, investment,

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<v Speaker 1>and I Digress. And we do this for all of

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<v Speaker 1>as well. Russell short Of has written The Jewel of

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<v Speaker 1>this Fourth July Revolution song, a story of American freedom.

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<v Speaker 1>It is about six people involved in our revolutionary war,

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<v Speaker 1>and we are thrilled we're joining Russell short Off and

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<v Speaker 1>Brown University. Gordon Would is well. Wonderful that both of

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<v Speaker 1>you on. Russell, let me give you first word, although

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure you'd like to hear from Professor Would and

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<v Speaker 1>as well. Russell, you have six different, different different people

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<v Speaker 1>in your book. How did you choose them? Well? First

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<v Speaker 1>of all, thank you very much Tom for having me on.

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<v Speaker 1>And I have to say what an honor it is

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<v Speaker 1>to be sharing your microphone with a great Professor Would,

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<v Speaker 1>whose work I have admired forever and I also want

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<v Speaker 1>to just get in a quick thank you to him

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<v Speaker 1>for doing me the honor of blurb ing the book,

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<v Speaker 1>which I'm sure made a lot of people who otherwise

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't have given it the time of day. Um Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>take a look at it, short, Short has taken the

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<v Speaker 1>lives of six very different figures and woven them seamlessly

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<v Speaker 1>together into an engaging, readable, and surprisingly complete account. I'll

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<v Speaker 1>add lib here Russell of the emotion, the passion, the gore,

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<v Speaker 1>the anger in the fragility of our American Revolution, Professor

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<v Speaker 1>Wood says a tour to force Russell, how did you

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<v Speaker 1>pick the six people? Um? That the whole idea was

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<v Speaker 1>to pick people from different walks of life, because of course, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's the revolution was about everyone. And yet we

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<v Speaker 1>tend to get the perspective of of the men in

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<v Speaker 1>the powdered wigs. So I wanted to and their perspective

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<v Speaker 1>is important, and I wanted to include uh them as well. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>But I did it over a long period of time because,

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<v Speaker 1>as it turns out, unless you were one of those

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<v Speaker 1>powdered wig people, um, it was it's difficult to find

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<v Speaker 1>people whose lives are well documented a slave Native American.

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<v Speaker 1>These people's lives were not, by and large well documented,

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<v Speaker 1>So it took me a couple of years of kind

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<v Speaker 1>of auditioning people for roles in the book. And I

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<v Speaker 1>had to find people who were from diverse backgrounds, whose

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<v Speaker 1>lives were well documented, who I cared about um and

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<v Speaker 1>who you know. The trickiest part is I wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>find people who, in some way or another cross paths

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<v Speaker 1>with each other, so that because I care about writing

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<v Speaker 1>narrative and I want to care about the reading experience,

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<v Speaker 1>and I wanted it to read as as one as

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<v Speaker 1>one narrative. Gordon would, I walked across George Washington with

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<v Speaker 1>James Thomas Flexner of Another time and Place. You are

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<v Speaker 1>our arch expert of the core research of the Revolution,

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<v Speaker 1>including your work on Benjamin Franklin. I was thunderstruck early

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<v Speaker 1>in Revolution song professor would of how fragile in what

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<v Speaker 1>a failure George Washington was discussed that Gordon would, Why

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<v Speaker 1>was George Washington such a failure early in the war. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>he he was facing the greatest power in the world

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<v Speaker 1>with a rag tag army that had very little experience.

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<v Speaker 1>It's amazing that he did as well as he did.

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<v Speaker 1>But uh, it's just extraordinary that he learned how to

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<v Speaker 1>how to fight the British in the course of losing

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<v Speaker 1>those battles. You're thinking particularly of the Battle of Long Island,

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<v Speaker 1>which was a near disaster. Uh, and he escaped by

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<v Speaker 1>the skin of his teeth and very lucky. Uh So

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<v Speaker 1>he The first year of the war was terrible for

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<v Speaker 1>the Americans, and it looked like they might just fail,

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<v Speaker 1>but they didn't. And he uh he managed the uh

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<v Speaker 1>the Battle of Trenton, and and that that brought back

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<v Speaker 1>the uh, the morale of Americans at that crucial time. Russell,

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<v Speaker 1>you go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art and you

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<v Speaker 1>pull down their perfect restoration of Washington crossing the Delaware

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<v Speaker 1>with James Monroe on the boat. It's all that you know.

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<v Speaker 1>It's whether it's Stan Freeberg comedy or it's what we

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<v Speaker 1>learned in school. It's not reality, is it. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>how did they, Russell Shorto, how did they really cross

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<v Speaker 1>the Delaware? Uh? Well it wasn't. I mean, if you

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<v Speaker 1>if you're you're taking the famous painting which was on

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<v Speaker 1>the cover as as that's your reference. Um, if there

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<v Speaker 1>are several things wrong with that painting. For one thing,

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<v Speaker 1>they haven't as I recalled, there's an American flag that

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<v Speaker 1>they're holding, which didn't exist yet in the painting. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>And Uh, they were crossing at night, so if you

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<v Speaker 1>you know, if they if you were being literal about it,

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<v Speaker 1>you probably wouldn't be able to see that, to see

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<v Speaker 1>the figures. So it was and it was actually the

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<v Speaker 1>recrossing coming back that was the that was the surprise.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean he that was Washington's brilliant maneuver to cross

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<v Speaker 1>back and surprise them. Uh. And that again is one

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<v Speaker 1>of these skin of the teeth moments where he pulls

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<v Speaker 1>Um pulls victory out of the jaws of defeat. The

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<v Speaker 1>fragility of the revolution, professor would was this because the

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<v Speaker 1>politicians didn't they have their back? I mean, you are

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<v Speaker 1>are expert and Benjamin Franklin. Do we blame the early

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<v Speaker 1>years of the revolution on John Adams and Benjamin Franklin

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<v Speaker 1>the others? Did they Did they get what was going

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<v Speaker 1>on out in the battlefields? Oh? I think they did.

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<v Speaker 1>I think they they What's incredible is the confidence they

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<v Speaker 1>had that they would win. I find that, you know

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that they were taking on the greatest power

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<v Speaker 1>in the world with with no experience, very little military help,

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<v Speaker 1>and and constant problems. Nonetheless, they had this confidence right

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<v Speaker 1>from the beginning that they were going to win. In in

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<v Speaker 1>in some sense they were right. I think the British

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<v Speaker 1>had an almost impossible task. I know that's difficult to

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<v Speaker 1>appreciate in the in retrospect, but I think they had

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<v Speaker 1>an impossible task to put down rebellion three thousand miles away.

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<v Speaker 1>We found that difficulty in Vietnam, and any nation that

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<v Speaker 1>tries to UH to deal with it with an uprising

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<v Speaker 1>thousands of miles away, UH has has a real has

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<v Speaker 1>a real problem, and a British face that right from

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<v Speaker 1>the beginning. You know, I look at this Russell, and

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<v Speaker 1>just to finish up here and we'll come back with

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<v Speaker 1>my colleague Pim Fox. Is what Russell? You have a

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<v Speaker 1>scene and this is so great for those of you

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<v Speaker 1>coast to coast. Russell Shorto takes you to Parliament where

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<v Speaker 1>Edmund Burke and the Whigs. Basically, Russell explained to the

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<v Speaker 1>elites of Britain, you're not going to win this thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell us about the courage of the Whigs to stand

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<v Speaker 1>up in Parliament and say to Lord North and the

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<v Speaker 1>rest this isn't gonna work. Well, what I think is

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<v Speaker 1>fascinating about the situation in England, and one that was

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<v Speaker 1>one reason I wanted to have one of my six

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<v Speaker 1>people be a British in this case the George Germain,

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<v Speaker 1>the men who really ran the war for Britain. Is

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<v Speaker 1>that then you get the sense of how divided Britten was.

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<v Speaker 1>The leadership was where you had a lot of Whigs

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<v Speaker 1>in Parliament basically saying, wait a second, we invented this

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<v Speaker 1>Enlightenment stuff and now they're using it against us and

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<v Speaker 1>guess what they're right? So, uh, you know, when you

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<v Speaker 1>have that kind of almost split personality among the British Parliament,

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<v Speaker 1>that adds to the difficulties in England. Faith to professor

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<v Speaker 1>would if I could, first, Gordon, would you invented and

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<v Speaker 1>demanded with great courage in the sixties that we go

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<v Speaker 1>back to the original research of the revolution, take us

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<v Speaker 1>back there to what it was like to actually go

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<v Speaker 1>into the actual documents and archives of the revolution that

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<v Speaker 1>have been forgotten by so many scholars. Well, I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>sure that it's been forgotten, because it is the most

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<v Speaker 1>important event in American history. Your bar none, uh and

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<v Speaker 1>not only legally created the United States the Revolution, but

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<v Speaker 1>it infused into our culture almost everything we believe in

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<v Speaker 1>our highest inspirations at noblest ideals. So the Revolution has

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<v Speaker 1>always been um an important event for Americans. And even

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<v Speaker 1>though we may think of July four just a time

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<v Speaker 1>to have a barbecue, we should not forget that this

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<v Speaker 1>is the most important day in the history of the

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<v Speaker 1>United States, and since the United States has become the

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<v Speaker 1>greatest power of the world has ever known, it's probably

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<v Speaker 1>not only important day for us, but maybe important day

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<v Speaker 1>for the world as well. Kim Well, I just would

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<v Speaker 1>like to put to both of these scholars the question

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<v Speaker 1>that you know, we study the Revolution, we praise the revolution.

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<v Speaker 1>I wonder if we've learned from the revolution, because we

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<v Speaker 1>always seem to be, at least in modern times, not

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<v Speaker 1>necessarily on the side of other revolutionary movements around the world.

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<v Speaker 1>And I believe your referenced Vietnam just a moment ago.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm wondering if you can each give us your

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<v Speaker 1>thoughts about whether there's a contradiction in the way that

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<v Speaker 1>we look at the revolution and apply it to our

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<v Speaker 1>current situation in the world. Professor Gordon Well, I think

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<v Speaker 1>that we have become since, especially since nineteen forty, a

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<v Speaker 1>status quo power that is trying to maintain the order

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<v Speaker 1>in the world. So we're not looking for revolutions. Although

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<v Speaker 1>we were very supportive of the Arab Spring, perhaps prematurely

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<v Speaker 1>since it didn't amount too much. Uh. It was it

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<v Speaker 1>was a fear of communism in in ninety that led

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<v Speaker 1>us into career and then into Vietnam. The fear that

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<v Speaker 1>the Communist Revolution, which was a rival to our own

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<v Speaker 1>ideological rival to our own that that we feared that

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<v Speaker 1>they might be taking over the world. Now we're no

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<v Speaker 1>longer fearing that kind of that kind of threat, but

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<v Speaker 1>we're worried about terrorism and and disturbances elsewhere. So we

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<v Speaker 1>are in that sense as status quo power, trying to

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<v Speaker 1>maintain the order in the world. Russell short of your thoughts, Yeah, well,

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that we thought a revolution doesn't necessarily mean

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<v Speaker 1>that we should support every revolution. The revolution was fought

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<v Speaker 1>over UH, certain beliefs and ideals about individuals and individual

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<v Speaker 1>liberty and therefore society that in a government that would

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<v Speaker 1>maintain those uh. And that goes back to into the

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<v Speaker 1>sixteen hundreds, that that building wave of awareness and the

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<v Speaker 1>American Revolution in the late seventeen hundreds was that was

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<v Speaker 1>a great explosion or of of a feeling and of

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<v Speaker 1>collective will in that regard. Uh And ever since then,

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<v Speaker 1>I think we've been trying to make good on it.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, the revolution was h was about certain things,

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<v Speaker 1>and it succeeded and it failed in in in making

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<v Speaker 1>those freedoms possible. And ever since then we've been trying

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<v Speaker 1>to make good on it. So we have the fight

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<v Speaker 1>over slavery, the fights over civil rights. I think that's

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<v Speaker 1>why I am said early in my book that I

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<v Speaker 1>think the revolution, the American Revolution is is ongoing and

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<v Speaker 1>we're still fighting the granularity. Russell Shorter of your book

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<v Speaker 1>of the Six People. In your book, whether it is

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<v Speaker 1>an Indian spanning the Seneca of western New York over

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<v Speaker 1>to the Mohawk and the Eastern New York and how

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<v Speaker 1>they go back and forth of the British is profoundly

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<v Speaker 1>focused on a black man on the Islands of New

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<v Speaker 1>York who ends up in Connecticut. Tell us a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit about his path from Africa and how he became

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<v Speaker 1>free and independent. Yeah, he was born brotier Furo in

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<v Speaker 1>West Africa and his village was invaded by an African army,

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<v Speaker 1>and they took him prisoner and took him to the

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<v Speaker 1>coast and sold him into slavery to a ship that

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<v Speaker 1>happened to be from Newport, Rhode Island. So he ended

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<v Speaker 1>up having living out his life in New York end

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<v Speaker 1>in Connecticut, and um and uh that he became. His

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<v Speaker 1>name was changed to Venture Smith and UM. It's a

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<v Speaker 1>remarkable story because, for one thing, his story is fairly complete, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>going back to the problem of sources, um, from beginning

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<v Speaker 1>to end, and it is this continual search for freedom

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<v Speaker 1>for himself. Un once he's enslaved, he does everything he

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<v Speaker 1>can to work for freedom and for himself and his

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<v Speaker 1>family eventually buys himself out and his family out of slavery.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's transpiring against the backdrop of the American fight

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<v Speaker 1>for freedom with within this Gordon Wood is when we

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<v Speaker 1>walked away from the revolutionary ward James McGregor burns the

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<v Speaker 1>giant of Williams College marks that day where Jefferson and

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<v Speaker 1>Adams died. But did it happen before that? When did

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<v Speaker 1>we move on from Russell Shorto's revolution song? Oh? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I think from the very moment that the Declaration of Independence.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it marked a major turning point, not only

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<v Speaker 1>in the U s history, but in the history of

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<v Speaker 1>the world. We have to understand and I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>it's a problem for us today because we look back

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<v Speaker 1>and these founding fathers, many of whom were slaveholders. Slavery

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<v Speaker 1>existed at the time of the Revolution, and it seems

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<v Speaker 1>embarrassing that they didn't do anything about it. But I

0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:31.320
<v Speaker 1>think we have to get the context correct. Until the Revolution,

0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:35.640
<v Speaker 1>the American Revolution, slavery was largely taken for granted by

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<v Speaker 1>the world. It existed for thousands of years, went back

0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:43.720
<v Speaker 1>to antiquity, and now it becomes a problem. It coincides

0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:47.520
<v Speaker 1>with the American Revolution. The first anti slavery convention in

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<v Speaker 1>the history of the world is held in Philadelphia in

0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.160
<v Speaker 1>seventeen seventy five. That's not a coincidence. So we have

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<v Speaker 1>to understand that the American Revolution coincided the questioning of

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<v Speaker 1>slavery and the opposition to slavery. Now, it takes a

0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:09.200
<v Speaker 1>civil war for us to eliminate slavery, but certainly the Revolution,

0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:13.400
<v Speaker 1>as Lincoln understood better than anyone, it was the revolution

0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:18.360
<v Speaker 1>that lay behind the Civil War and the and the

0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:25.640
<v Speaker 1>and the inconsistency of slavery. Uh, it's incompatibility with American values.

0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.800
<v Speaker 1>Russell one final question on revolution song. Bloomberg will celebrate

0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:31.760
<v Speaker 1>the fourth of July and the shores of the Charles

0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.880
<v Speaker 1>River up in Boston. And one of the great hallmarks

0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.160
<v Speaker 1>of your book is the distance from Boston to New York.

0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:42.000
<v Speaker 1>There was a cultural divide. It wasn't the Hudson River.

0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:45.280
<v Speaker 1>I'll let you decide. Maybe it was the Connecticut River.

0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:49.400
<v Speaker 1>But but it was amazing the distance of New England

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<v Speaker 1>from the rest of the country in the time of

0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:55.760
<v Speaker 1>your book. Well, that was the speaking of the Hudson River.

0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.640
<v Speaker 1>That was the British initial British strategy was if you

0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.520
<v Speaker 1>take control of the Hudson River, then you are They

0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:05.320
<v Speaker 1>thought that New England was the hotbed of the rebellion

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<v Speaker 1>and that that would sort of cut New England off

0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.520
<v Speaker 1>from the rest of the colonies. So there was that

0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:13.360
<v Speaker 1>that sense, But there was also I think a different

0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.960
<v Speaker 1>sensibility in New England and in New York, and I

0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:20.440
<v Speaker 1>think New York that goes back to the Dutch period.

0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.600
<v Speaker 1>New York was always there. He gets his second book

0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.960
<v Speaker 1>in there, see how he's Russell's Russell selling both Russell

0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:31.560
<v Speaker 1>selling both books today. Professor would if if we're selling

0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:33.920
<v Speaker 1>books that I I would like to give a shout

0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.600
<v Speaker 1>out to Professor Wood's latest book as well, Friends Divided,

0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:41.280
<v Speaker 1>which all the period of the revolution uh in a

0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:44.680
<v Speaker 1>biographic and it's in Goodwill Hunting. I'll let you know

0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.840
<v Speaker 1>it is. You should watch that movie and check out

0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.480
<v Speaker 1>and find those moments when they speak about Professor Woods.

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<v Speaker 1>We will do that. Gordon would thank you so much

0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.200
<v Speaker 1>from Brown University into Russell Short. Thank you. It is

0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.680
<v Speaker 1>always I can't say enough folks about Revolution Song, a

0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:07.720
<v Speaker 1>story of American Freedom. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg

0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:13.680
<v Speaker 1>Surveillance podcast. Subscribe and listen to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:18.280
<v Speaker 1>or whichever podcast platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at

0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:22.560
<v Speaker 1>Tom Keene before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide.

0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:24.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm Bloomberg Radio