1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: I came from a beautiful neighborhood, had a beautiful life. 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 2: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 2: day of my high school year. I was going to 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 2: be a senior. 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 3: At twenty two, I was set to start college. 6 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 2: I woke up and my life was never the same again. 7 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 3: Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw 8 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 3: freedom ever since after that. 9 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 2: It's like roach mode, Tom. Once you get in, you 10 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 2: and I can't mouth. 11 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 4: This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom. Welcome to another 12 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 4: episode of Wrongful Conviction. This is our holiday episode, which 13 00:00:54,880 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 4: we are calling a very special wrongful Christmasman Knox laughing. 14 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 4: I would like to introduce our guests. Each one has 15 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 4: a very unique story, but they all have one terrible 16 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 4: thing in common, which is that they spent years upon 17 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 4: years in prison and holiday after holiday in prison for 18 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 4: crimes that they didn't commit. Jared Adams an Xannery from Wisconsin. Jared, 19 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 4: Welcome to the show. 20 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for having me on the show. 21 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: I really appreciate being here and having a platform to 22 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: talk about anything involved in roll for previction and criminal 23 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: justice reform. 24 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 4: Yes, and you are certainly you certainly have a unique 25 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 4: perspective on it. I'm looking forward to talking more about that. 26 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 4: Jeff Deskovic, an axannery from New York who served almost 27 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 4: seventeen years in prison for a crime he didn't commit. Jeff, 28 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 4: Welcome to the show, and happy holidays to you too. 29 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Happy holidays, Jason. 30 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 4: And last but not least, we have someone who you'll recognize. 31 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 4: I'd like to introduce my friend, Amanda Knox. Amanda, Welcome 32 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 4: to the show, Thank you, and happy holidays. 33 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 5: Happy holidays. 34 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 4: So before we get into talking about what holidays are 35 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 4: like in prison for someone who's innocent, I want to 36 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 4: talk a little bit about each of your cases so 37 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 4: we can begin to understand the psyche the psychology was 38 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 4: going on when you were stuck there. Jarl, let's start 39 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 4: with you. 40 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: I'm from Chicago, and I made my way to Wisconsin 41 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: by making a stupid decision as a kid. Told my 42 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 1: parents I was going to spend a night over a 43 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: friend's house. And we got in the car and we 44 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: made a trip up to Wisconsin, which border Chicago, about 45 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: an hour fifteen minutes out, and we went to a 46 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: college party. And we went to the college party, and 47 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: we did what college kids do we, you know, experienment 48 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: with drinking, with smoking, and sex, and we were ultimately 49 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: accused of a sexual assault that never happened, you know. 50 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 1: Allegations were made up out of embarrassment by this girl. 51 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: And the thing about it was the police knew from 52 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: the very beginning. We were accused of sneaking up a 53 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: flight of stairs, gang and the girl and fleeing the building. 54 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 2: But there were witnesses, you know. 55 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: From students, who saw us and saw us from a 56 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: timeline from basically like eight nine, ten eleven, twelve o'clock 57 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: one o'clock, so the allegations were false. The police knew 58 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: about these witnesses, and we didn't have all of the 59 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: information and the statements from these witnesses to be able 60 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: to prove that it was impossible time wise for us 61 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: to be participating in the gang rape and fleeing the building. 62 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: So ultimately two of us ended up being found guilty. 63 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: And the difference between the two out of the three 64 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: was I, along with my co defended Dimitri Helling. We 65 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: weren't able to afford an attorney. We were giving public defenders. 66 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: My other co defendant, he had an attorney and his 67 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: attorney was litigating and fighting it all the way, filing 68 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: the appeals and saying, look, there's not enough evidence to 69 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: charge these boys with a rape. There's nothing but an allegation, 70 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: and they shouldn't be able to bring this in court. 71 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: Our attorneys were like, well, no, you know what, Look 72 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: we don't think they did it. There's no evidence. Let's 73 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: go to trial. Dangerous decision, which was motivated by them 74 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: because as public defenders, they don't get paid unless the 75 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: case is closed. So when they're incentive for rushing and 76 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: going to court unprepared, was let me get this case 77 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: closed and let me get paid. Whiles the other attorney, 78 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: who was a paid attorney, he was on retainer and 79 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: he was in no rush to serve us up on 80 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: a platter. Basically, we ended up being found guilt, being 81 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: found guilty and sentenced to serve twenty and twenty eight 82 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: years respectively. I had an additional eight years add on 83 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: to my sentence because at the sentence here, and you know, 84 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: I refuse to be sympathetic and admit to a rape 85 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: that I didn't commit, and the judge told me that 86 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: I was being not being remorseful, and she gave me 87 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: an additional eight years in prison. This eight years and 88 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: the significance of it sent me to do time in 89 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: a maximum slash super maximum correctional facility. 90 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 2: And I got there in the first year. 91 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: It was just like out of body of experience, you know, 92 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: got to the point where it was like, look, I 93 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: wasn't mad or angry anymore for the fact that they 94 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: didn't believe me, right, I was more so angry and 95 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: upset to the fact that I'm sitting in this prison. 96 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 2: I have a mother aunts that raised me. 97 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: I'm accused of a ridiculous crime that has no evidence, 98 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: and the only reason I'm here is because I couldn't 99 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: afford an attorney, and more importantly, because my accuser was 100 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: white and we were black. 101 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 4: But eventually you were exonerated. 102 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: Yes, with the help of the Wisconsin Interscence Project, I 103 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: was exonerated and released. But after all the serving close 104 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: to ten years in prison. The last bit of the 105 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: story is my co defendant, Although he was released, his 106 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: record wasn't expunged because he missed the deadline. So here 107 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: it is the code defendant in my case is released, 108 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: but he still has it on his record for him 109 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: missing a deadline to follow the same motion that I 110 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: filed with the Innocence Project to get me out, and 111 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: it absolutely makes no sense at all. 112 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 4: And of course, one more thing, I can ever tell 113 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 4: your story without talking about the incredible turn of events 114 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 4: that led to you clerking in the same courtroom where 115 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 4: you were exonerated. But now I'm very proud brag about 116 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 4: you for a second, Jared. Now, Jared has just started 117 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 4: his job as an attorney with the Ennisis Project in 118 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 4: New York. 119 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: So we'll give you a little roundable placate the All right, so. 120 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 4: Let's go to you, Amanda. 121 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 3: Sure. 122 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 6: A month into my study abroad program, one of my 123 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 6: roommates was found raped and murdered in her bedroom in 124 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 6: the apartment that she shared with me and two other 125 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:37,119 Speaker 6: Italian roommates, and four days later I was arrested for 126 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 6: having participated in her murder. I was led through a 127 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 6: very coercive interrogation that led me to believe that I 128 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 6: had witnessed the murder and had suffered amnesia and knew 129 00:06:55,880 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 6: who the killer was, and presumably that person would have 130 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 6: been my boss, who I was supposed to meet that 131 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 6: night for work. What ended up happening was when DNA 132 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 6: came back showing what had happened at the scene. It 133 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 6: came back having nothing to do with me or my 134 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 6: boyfriend who was my alibi, or my boss who had 135 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 6: his alibi as well. It had to do with a 136 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 6: local burglar who was known to break in enter carrying 137 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 6: a knife. And instead of the police saying, oh, we 138 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 6: made a mistake by arresting this girl and her boyfriend 139 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 6: and her boss, what they did was they took my 140 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 6: boss out of the equation and put this burglar into 141 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 6: the equation, saying that I had manipulated these two young men, 142 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 6: my boyfriend and this local burglar who I didn't know, 143 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 6: into raping Meredith, my roommate, and then allowing me to 144 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 6: murder her. And it took four years for me to 145 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 6: get out of prison, and another four years for the 146 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 6: case to finally be resolved and for me to be exonerated. 147 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 6: I was convicted, then acquitted, then reconvicted, and then finally 148 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 6: the Supreme Court overturned that conviction and definitively found me innocent. 149 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's quite stunning watching the documentary, which I 150 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 4: thought was so brilliantly done, to see just how the 151 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 4: evidence was so badly mishandled, how the whole procedure was 152 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 4: so badly mishandled, and of course your case became such 153 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:53,719 Speaker 4: an international story, tabloid headlines everywhere, and that's you know, 154 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 4: I think that in a very real way, precluded you 155 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 4: from getting justice. Because I'm in theory they could have 156 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 4: still done what was right. But we know that in 157 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 4: smaller communities, especially when a case gets a lot of 158 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 4: attention from the press and there's you know, there's a 159 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 4: spotlight shown on it, it makes prosecutors and others actors 160 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 4: in the system less inclined to accept evidence of innocence 161 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 4: and basically admit that they were wrong. Now we'll turn 162 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:30,599 Speaker 4: to Jeff Deskovic. 163 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 3: Sure, at age sixteen, I was arrested for a murderer 164 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 3: rape which I did not commit, and the arrest was 165 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 3: based upon a coerce false confession which they obtained after 166 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 3: interrogating me for six and a half to seven hours. 167 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 3: This was in Westchester County here in New York. I 168 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 3: turned seventeen before the trials started, and despite a pre 169 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 3: trial negative DNA exclusion which showed that semen found the 170 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 3: victim did not come for me, nonetheless was wrongfully convicted 171 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 3: based upon that coers, false confession, prosecutorial misconduct, fraud by 172 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 3: the medical examiner, a terrible public defender. I was in 173 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 3: prison from age is aged seventeen to thirty two. I 174 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 3: lost all seven of my appeals. I got turned down 175 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 3: for parole because I stood on my innocence. Ultimately, I 176 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 3: was exonerated through further DNA testing with the assistance of 177 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 3: the Innocence Project via the DNA Data Bank. And not 178 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 3: only was I exonerated, but the actual perpetrator was identified 179 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 3: and subsequently arrested and convicted. 180 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 4: You speak of it so eloquently but almost matter of factly. 181 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 4: And the idea that you were interrogated without a lawyer, 182 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 4: without a parent, without a guardian, you were sixteen years old, 183 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 4: You were threatened with physical violence, and it was the 184 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 4: false promise. 185 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 3: Also, you know that they promised me that if I 186 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 3: did as they wanted, that they would stop the interrogation 187 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 3: process and that I was not going to be arrested. 188 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 3: That was a dynamic also. And the other thing I 189 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 3: want to share Jason with the audience is that they 190 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 3: drove me from Peak Skill, which was in Westchester County. 191 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 3: They drove me out of county to Putnam County to 192 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 3: deliver me into the hands of a polygraphist who conducted 193 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 3: this procedure, which he himself referred to as GtC. You know, 194 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 3: get the confession. 195 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 4: Right, and they promised you that if you signed the confession, 196 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 4: you would go home and be able to stay in 197 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 4: your own bed with your brother. 198 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 3: Well they promised me, yeah, if I confess, they'd stopped. 199 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 3: But just so everybody understands the outrageousness though, just even 200 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 3: beyond what we've already said, the interrogation was not videotaped. 201 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 3: It was an audio tape, and there was no signed confession. 202 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 3: It was just the officer's word, which allowed them at 203 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 3: the trial to omit the threat and false promise from 204 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 3: their testimony. 205 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 4: What is also really important for us to highlight is 206 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,719 Speaker 4: the idea that because of this false confession, you were 207 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 4: convicted in spite of the fact that you had DNA evidence. 208 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 4: In cases involving juveniles, false confessions are amazingly common, disturbingly common, 209 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 4: and the idea that a jury would disregard scientific evidence 210 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 4: that you could not have been at the crime scene 211 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 4: because of a confession is something that you know, I 212 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 4: just want everybody to reflect upon for a second, because 213 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 4: that is you know that that can never happen again. 214 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 3: To kind of jump ahead in terms of what I'm 215 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 3: doing now, I use some of the money that I 216 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 3: won from the lawsuit, and I started a nonprofit organization 217 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 3: named after me, the Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation for Justice, whose 218 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 3: goal is to exonerate other innocent people. In our four 219 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 3: years of existence, we exonerated two people, William Lopez, who 220 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 3: was wrongfully in prison for twenty three and a half years. Recently, 221 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 3: we exonerated William Hawhee, who served eight years and four months. 222 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 3: Currently trying to raise funds through a website called Patreon 223 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 3: in order to hire more staff to assist more innocent people. 224 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 3: The last quick thing I'll mention is following in the 225 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 3: footsteps an example of Jared Adams is here with us today. 226 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 3: I'm also in I'm in law school one year in 227 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 3: my first year at the Elizabeth Hopp School of Law. 228 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 3: In my planes and you know, when I saw Jared 229 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 3: walk across the stage, you know, getting his law degree, 230 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 3: all doubts in my mind because I was going back 231 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 3: and forth, do I really want to become a lawyer 232 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 3: or do I just want to remain an advocate and 233 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 3: just have lawyers work for me and work with me. 234 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 3: All that disappeared. It was a clear cut decision. 235 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,559 Speaker 4: And Jeff, it's let's give you a round of applause 236 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 4: as well, because it's fantastic. You know, we have three 237 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 4: different people here, different backgrounds, different faiths. You know, people 238 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 4: don't think about as they're going about their holiday business, right, 239 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 4: and of course New York is no different than anywhere 240 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 4: else in the country. There's you know, sales coming up, 241 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 4: and then there's all the things you do to get 242 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 4: busy around the holidays and buy ugly sweaters for your friends, 243 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 4: and different traditions that people participate in, whether you're you know, Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, whatever, 244 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 4: everybody has their things atheist, I mean, even they celebrate 245 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 4: the holidays, right, So yes, thank you. The fact is 246 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 4: that there's a whole different holiday going on for the 247 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 4: two point three million people who are locked up and 248 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 4: will be locked up this holiday season. I want to 249 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 4: give some insight to the audience about what that's like 250 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 4: being behind bars. Manda. Let's start with you. I mean 251 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 4: here you were in Italy, right in prison. How long 252 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 4: had you been in by the time the holidays came around. 253 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 6: The first time, so I was arrested on November sixth, 254 00:14:55,600 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 6: and so I was in prison for you know, about 255 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 6: a month, a month and a half before you know, 256 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 6: the Christmas season came around, and I mean all the 257 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 6: Christmases were largely the same. That first one was particularly 258 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 6: fraught with confusion and fear and uncertainty because by that 259 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 6: time I was still hoping that all of this was 260 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 6: just a big mistake and that I was going to 261 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 6: get to go home with my mom. That ended up 262 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 6: not being the case. It's my experience of the holidays 263 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 6: in prison is that it just serves as a reminder 264 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 6: of how much life is passing without you, and how 265 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 6: you know, every year I would call back home for 266 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 6: my ten minute phone call and my you know, I 267 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 6: had cousins who were one years old when I left, 268 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 6: and they were talking to me by the time I 269 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 6: was finally coming home. And it's a reminder of how 270 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 6: much your family is sacrificing for you. My family had 271 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 6: to cross an ocean to get to me, and they 272 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 6: it was a tremendous sacrifice to them. My mom had 273 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 6: to come during the winter holidays because she's a teacher 274 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 6: and she didn't, she didn't have to go to work. 275 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 6: My sisters could come to finally visit me during the 276 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 6: winter holidays, and we would spend those trying to trying 277 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 6: to feel like we were celebrating something, usually by my 278 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 6: stepdad making you know, turkey and bringing it into the 279 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 6: prison for me so I could at least take part 280 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 6: separately in the family meal. 281 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 4: How long were they allowed to visit you on what 282 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 4: we're talking specifically about Christmas Day? 283 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 6: Well, and not necessarily in Christmas Day. It depended on 284 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 6: what day visits was allowed, so it was usually the 285 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 6: day nearest to Christmas that they were allowed to come. 286 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 6: You weren't necessarily allowed that given day. I was only 287 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 6: allowed to see my family for six hours a month, 288 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 6: and visitation periods were an hour at a time. Occasionally 289 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 6: they would allow us an extra hour. 290 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 4: Did it provide you any sort of peace or any 291 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 4: sort of an escape. Were you able to detach for 292 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 4: even that brief period of time. 293 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 6: No. It did remind me that there was a whole 294 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 6: world outside waiting for me, and that the people who 295 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 6: cared about me were still there as much as they 296 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 6: possibly could be. But we were still in the you know, 297 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 6: the visitation room, and I was still not allowed to 298 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 6: you know, we weren't allowed to like touch too much. 299 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 6: Like we were allowed to hold hands, but we you know, 300 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 6: we couldn't just stand there hugging the whole time if 301 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 6: we wanted to, like, it wasn't allowed. You had to 302 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 6: sit down in your chair, You had to sit down 303 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 6: and talk because it was visitation. And then when it 304 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 6: was time to go, we were allowed to hug and 305 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 6: they left. 306 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 4: So it's hard to even hear this. You were basically 307 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 4: not far removed from being a child at this point 308 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 4: in time. We were just out of high school. Yeah, 309 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 4: I was twenty years old, Jeff. For you, you were 310 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 4: even younger, I mean sixteen years old. 311 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 3: My first holiday inside was spent at seventeen. 312 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 2: So on. 313 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 3: So on Thanksgiving, I mean, they served the meal that 314 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 3: was supposed to replicate a traditional Thanksgiving meal, except that 315 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 3: you know, the stuff it was extremely it was so 316 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 3: salty it wasn't palatable, and the turkey was processed. The 317 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 3: guards knew that it was a halfway decent meal, you know, 318 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 3: compared to the other fair and so they rushed us 319 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 3: out of the vessol, barely giving us ten minutes to 320 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 3: eat it was a very stressful time. Everybody wanted to 321 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 3: use the telephones to call home, but there was nowhere 322 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 3: near enough telephone, so it was almost impossible to get 323 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 3: on the phone and make a phone call. I would 324 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 3: say the same thing was true on Christmas, one of 325 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 3: the bright spots there, because it wasn't I mean, it 326 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 3: was horrible, but there were a few bright spots here 327 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 3: and there, relatively speaking. So there was a volunteer that 328 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 3: used to come into the prison every Christmas, and there 329 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 3: was a staff person who also would would come in 330 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 3: on what was obviously an off day for them. So 331 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 3: those two would pair with the guard and they would 332 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 3: have a bugle and they would actually play Christmas carols 333 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 3: at the at the bottom of the the first floor 334 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,479 Speaker 3: of each tier, and so everybody could could hear it. 335 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 3: And as you might imagine it, it drew a mixed reaction. 336 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 3: Some of the prisoners, like myself, we we enjoyed listening 337 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 3: to it. It brought back some uh, you know, good memories, 338 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 3: while other people didn't appreciate it, and so they would 339 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 3: start yelling up scenides trying to get them to stop, 340 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 3: but they would ignore and and and keep going. 341 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 4: Sort of a surreal, uh picture that you're painting, right. 342 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 3: It definitely was the only only thing I just want 343 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 3: to add is, you know, in my experience, you know, 344 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 3: I didn't have any visitors on the on the holidays 345 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 3: themselves because they were they were all getting together and 346 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 3: doing the family thing, and so they didn't end that 347 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 3: tradition to instead for a couple of them to come 348 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 3: drive the four hours each way to come and see 349 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 3: me in the prison. 350 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 351 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 4: I'm still stuck on this idea of this contrast, right 352 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 4: of the Christmas music with people alternately either humming or 353 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 4: singing along or yelling curses and epithets. 354 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 3: It was what it was. It was a madhouse. It 355 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 3: was it was. It was a madhouse. 356 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 4: Were the guards I mean, they must not have been 357 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 4: particularly thrilled to be in uh in prison on the holidays. 358 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 4: Did it affect their behavior in any way? 359 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 3: You know, they rushed us instead of giving us the 360 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 3: normal time we would normally be allotted, you know, to eat, 361 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 3: they would rush us out. And then the last half 362 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 3: of my sentence, I think that some kind of policy 363 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 3: was changed and so instead of them allowing us to 364 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 3: have recreation at night, they took that away. They gave 365 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 3: us an hour recreation so they could hurry up and 366 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 3: lock the facility down so that they could engage in 367 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 3: a Christmas party, a Thanksgiving party, a New Year's party 368 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 3: while we were all just you locked in the cage. 369 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 4: That's another thing that you really wouldn't think of. 370 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 3: Well, you could tell by the look on their faces 371 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 3: that many of them were not happy to be there 372 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 3: despite that, And so for me personally, I know a 373 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 3: lot of the other prisoners too. We used to walk 374 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 3: on eggshells on those days. The best thing to do 375 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 3: was to try to somehow avoid being noticed at all, 376 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 3: because you don't want to be the target of their frustration. 377 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 4: Jarrett, what was it like for you? I mean, first, 378 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 4: among other things, you're in a particularly called climate. 379 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 2: It's brutal cold. 380 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 1: Well, my first actual holiday incarcerated was when I was 381 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: first arrested because I couldn't afford it to get a bail, 382 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: Like my family didn't have enough money to get a 383 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: bail and stuff like that, and so not enough money 384 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: to get a bill, I don't enough money to get 385 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: a lawyer. So I sat there and basically I turned 386 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: eighteen and spent my first Christmas and Thanksgiving and stuff 387 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 1: like that while I was in jail, and it was, 388 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 1: you know, one of these things where it was like 389 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: I couldn't afford to get out, and so what they 390 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: did was I live in Chicago, so they arrested me 391 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: in Chicago and they were just extraditing me too Wisconsin. 392 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 1: So I spent those days in the Cook County Jail, 393 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: which I don't know if many of your listeners may know, 394 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: they can do some research, but Cook County Jail is 395 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: one of the most violent jails there is in the 396 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 1: United States. And so that's why I spent my first birthday, 397 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving and stuff like that be extradited. And it's just horrible. 398 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: It's really no different than a prison. Besides it's it's 399 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 1: in many ways can be more violent because like everyone 400 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 1: is on right on top of each other in the 401 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: county jail, and there's so many people, and there's lack 402 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: of bed space, and you have bunk beds, you know, 403 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: all out in the day room, and you know, it's 404 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: just it's just a different climate. And so what they 405 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 1: did in Cook County Jail was they would they would 406 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: push they would push a cart in, you know, into 407 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: the the pod, and they would have someone in there 408 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 1: who would pass it out and stuff like that. 409 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 2: But it was nothing to look forward to. 410 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: I mean, all of it was a rendition of what 411 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 1: you would normally get when you with your family, right. 412 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 4: Well, when you're said, they push the cart in a 413 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 4: cart with. 414 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: What with nothing but food, with your food inside of it, 415 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: and it would be on a tray, and you know, 416 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: everyone would come by and they would get a tray 417 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: and you know, much like what Jeff was explaining that 418 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: it would be a rendition of what stuffing was supposed 419 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: to be. It would be a hard slash of what 420 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: turkey was supposed to its supposed to look like. 421 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: But it's like it's so processed you don't know what 422 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 2: it is. 423 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 6: Right. 424 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: So that along with the phones being busy, but me personally, 425 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: I just didn't I didn't even want to make a 426 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: phone call, you know, I just didn't, you know, I 427 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: want I wanted to block out the fact that you know, 428 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: I was in there for the holidays. Man, I mean 429 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: I'm turning eighteen, you know. There and everyone kept asking me, like, man, 430 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: what you doing in here? 431 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 2: Right? 432 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 1: Because I had never been arrested before or anything like that. 433 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: So it's just like, you know, you go in a 434 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: place like that, and you stand out immediately if you 435 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: don't know your way around or if people haven't seen 436 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: you around in a place like that. 437 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 2: So I didn't know anyone in there. 438 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: I pretty much was kept to myself, read, you know, 439 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: watch whatever was on TV. And what I tried to 440 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: do each holiday was I tried to stay up all 441 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: day the day before the holiday, so that way I 442 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: could sleep the entire holiday and get it over with 443 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: as fast as possible. 444 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 4: Collectively, you served twenty nine We did the math before 445 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 4: we got on the air. You served twenty nine Christmases, Thanksgivings, 446 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 4: Monica's in prison. Were there any bright spots in any 447 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 4: of those hollies? Was there anyone who sort of gave 448 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 4: you a reason to feel anything other than lonely, sad, isolated? 449 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 6: I mean, besides my family, which I can't say enough, 450 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 6: they were there for me. One memory that I wanted 451 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 6: to share with you is so there was a priest 452 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 6: in my prison who was like my best friend because 453 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 6: we would get into so many great, warm, intellectual arguments 454 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 6: about fundamental human rights and why women couldn't be in 455 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 6: the clergy if they didn't want to, and why gay 456 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 6: people couldn't get married if they if they want to. 457 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 6: And we had so many great arguments about that, and 458 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 6: I loved him. And he allowed me to play guitar 459 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 6: during Mass, which was so it was so great for me. 460 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 6: And we learned this, I think you'll appreciate this. We 461 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 6: learned this Jewish song in Italian for Christmas, which which 462 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 6: goes ci a la par check. 463 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 5: Noi ci a la par check noi ce la par 464 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 5: check noi chalam chalam chalom Malachem. And so we sang 465 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 5: this song in Mass. And one of the things about 466 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 5: my prison was it's a woman's prison. And there were 467 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 5: mothers there with small children. They were kept in a 468 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 5: separate ward and they were allowed to keep their children 469 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 5: up to three years old with them, but we saw 470 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 5: them in Mass. And there was this one little girl 471 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 5: who never ever, ever talked ever, but she always made 472 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 5: eye contact with me. 473 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:22,239 Speaker 6: We played, and I caught her singing that song in 474 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 6: the yard once you have a little girl. She never spoke, 475 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 6: so like the yard was split off and there were 476 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 6: bars between the yard where people like me were versus 477 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 6: where the mothers with their children were. And this little 478 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 6: girl was just like swinging on a little swing singing shot. 479 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 4: It was really cute. 480 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 6: So that was that was a really great moment for 481 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 6: me that she had just like heard that song and 482 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 6: felt really involved with it. 483 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 4: I can't imagine the day before the kid turns three 484 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 4: and what that must be like for them to be 485 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 4: to know that they're going to be separated. 486 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 6: Tried to commit suicide a lot of the time when 487 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 6: their kids were taken away. 488 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's that's I can't even process that. 489 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 4: And then the other thing that the musical part of 490 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 4: my brain is about to explode from the my mind 491 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 4: is going to a mix of your Jewish Italian Christmas 492 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 4: song and the other bugle with the. 493 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 6: Curses, and you can't forget like the clanging of the 494 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 6: bars and the sounds of the keys churning in the lock, 495 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 6: and like all of that just superimposed on everything, the 496 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 6: echo of the corridors. 497 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 4: Jeff, what about you? Were there anything uplifting at all 498 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 4: that happened on any of the holidays, a birthday. 499 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 3: Even, Yeah, later on in my sentence, I think it 500 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 3: was from nineteen ninety nine or two thousand forward, So 501 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 3: last five six years I got a different counselor in 502 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 3: the prison. Carol Hellman, and she believed in my She 503 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 3: was one of the rare people that believed in my innocence, 504 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 3: and so we would She would typically call me to 505 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 3: her office near near the Christmas holiday and you know, 506 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 3: just doing the quarterly and she would always end the 507 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 3: conversation by saying, you know, look, have happy holidays. That's convict, 508 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 3: you know, So in her own way, she was trying 509 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 3: to be empathetic and you know, human to me. So 510 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 3: that was that was a bright spot. I used to 511 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 3: enjoy talking to her. I mean, we would get the 512 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 3: prison stuff out of the way quickly that she had 513 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 3: to do, but then we would talk a little bit 514 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 3: just as people, and it was nice to It was 515 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 3: refreshing to have a conversation with somebody, you know, other 516 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 3: than just another prisoner. And so that was that was 517 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 3: a bright spot. 518 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: And Jared turned to you, in the United States, they 519 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,719 Speaker 1: purposely seclude prisons is far away from the population and normal, 520 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: you know, not not I don't want to say normal, 521 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: but the inner city society or where most of the 522 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: people who they house families come from. So because I'm 523 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: all the way in Wisconsin, they pushed me like three 524 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: or four hours deeper in to Wisconsin for a drive 525 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: coming from Chicago. 526 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: So it made the drive almost like four or five hours. 527 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: So that way, if my family was going to come, 528 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: they were they were going to have to you know, 529 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: get a hotel or you know, you're talking about people 530 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: who were reaching the age of being senior citizens, were 531 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: very low income, and so it was hard for me 532 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: to ever see them on the holidays except for this 533 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: one holiday when I got the chance to get you know, 534 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: my aunts and my uncle who was my godfather who 535 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: just recently you know, passed away about a couple of 536 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: years ago, and they came on a bus. They took 537 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: a Greyhound because at this point, I mean, driving five 538 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: hours was just ridiculous to ask of them coming from 539 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: Chicago and bad weather that they you know, were coming in. 540 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: So they came from Chicago on the bus and they 541 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: visited with me that day. And at that time, they 542 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: had a program inside the prison I was in where 543 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: you were allowed to order some things and just for 544 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: the purpose of it being a holiday Christmas, they would 545 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: let you stuff in and the things that we let 546 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: you get in were food items, and so in prison, 547 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: those summer sausages are like gold, right, you know, so 548 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: you get this Christmas pack and it has all the 549 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: flavors you can think of, Jason Pepperoni flavors, smoked turkey flavor, 550 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: and it has the different cheeses, the different spreads. So 551 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: I got that before I knew I had a visit. 552 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: So I got it and I was just so thankful. 553 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: And I'm calling the house and no one is picking up, 554 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: and I'm like, man, where are they at? You know, 555 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: I'm trying to get in touch with them. And so 556 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: I'm laying, you know, on my bunk, and I'm going 557 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: through all these summer sausages with different crackers and stuff 558 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: like that, and they're like, you gotta visit. And so 559 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: I sat there because I was in the sale with 560 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: someone else and I thought they were talking to him, right, 561 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: And so then they left and they came back about 562 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: five minutes. 563 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 2: They're like, Adams, if. 564 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: You don't take your visit, then we're gonna cancel your visit. 565 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: And so I was like, all right, So I got 566 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: up like a fireman. 567 00:31:58,120 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 2: I jumped. 568 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: I jumped off the bed fully, clothing into my shoes 569 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: all at one time. 570 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 2: Right, I went upstairs and I got a chance. 571 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: To see my two aunts and my uncle Wood came 572 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: to see me, and you know, I sat with them 573 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: and I enjoyed that time because that at that time 574 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: I hadn't had a visit, I want to say, in 575 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: like a year year and a half. And you know, 576 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: it was becoming extremely difficult for me because appeal after 577 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: appeal was being denied and they weren't answering any of 578 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: the evidence. They just kept saying, well, your lawyers chose 579 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: to call no witnesses and chosen no defense theory, so 580 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: we're not going to go into that and question their strategy. 581 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: And it kept rubberstamding my appeal. So it got to 582 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: the point where I became desponded. I didn't want to 583 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: interact so much, you know, on the phone and and 584 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: on visits, and look at the the wrinkles and creases 585 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: of anguish lying on my mother's forehead. 586 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 2: That stuff takes a toll on you. 587 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 4: And that's so crazy, too, Jared, because the idea that 588 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 4: they would willfully push you further away from your family, 589 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 4: when as a society, we know that everyone is coming 590 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 4: back from prison, almost everyone's going to get out, and 591 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 4: you want that bond to remain intact so that people 592 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 4: have a community to come back to, because ultimately, everybody 593 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 4: that's in prison that comes out is going to be 594 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 4: somebody's neighbor someday. And that's the approach that they take 595 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 4: in European prisons, where they focus on rehabilitation and they 596 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 4: treat the prisoners. Not in Italy, but I'm talking about, 597 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 4: I should say, in the Scandinavian countries particularly, right, they 598 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 4: have an approach where and in fact, there's one where 599 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 4: I've seen a video where the warden talks about that 600 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 4: when the prisoner's coming, he says, you're going to be 601 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 4: my neighbors someday when you get out, so I'm going 602 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 4: to treat you as I would want to be treated myself. 603 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 4: And they actually sing, the guards sing a song. I mean, 604 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 4: it's crazy, but it's such a different and it works 605 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 4: much better. But that's another story. And some people may 606 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 4: think they take it too far. But but that's a 607 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 4: debate we can have on some o the time. 608 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 6: It is true, like it's just a very practical measure. 609 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 6: I mean one thing, just in response to something that 610 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 6: you were saying that like the way that we imprison people. 611 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 6: Now there's this dichotomy where you as like a social 612 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 6: animal want your to be close to your family so badly, 613 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 6: and you want to stay in touch with the real 614 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 6: world so badly, But that's exactly what is taken away 615 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 6: from you and the longer, Like, as the holidays add up, 616 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 6: and as the time adds up, you see how your 617 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 6: life has gone on a radically divergent path and the 618 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 6: lives of all the people that you love, and you 619 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 6: feel like your experience of the world and of reality 620 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 6: is so different and so incompatible with what the rest 621 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 6: of us take for granted out on the outside world. Like, 622 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 6: how then do you expect people to get out of 623 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 6: that situation and re engage with the real world. I mean, 624 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 6: it's hard enough for people to re engage with their 625 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 6: families even when they first get out, not to mention 626 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 6: the rest of the world. 627 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 4: It's devastating, right, It's it's almost perfectly designed to drive 628 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 4: people crazy, and quite literally. But what I'd like to 629 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 4: do the audience that's listening, now, let's say they want 630 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,720 Speaker 4: to get involved, and let's say they want to bring 631 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 4: a ray of light into a prison. I'll throw one 632 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,399 Speaker 4: idea out there. I'm pen pals with a couple of 633 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 4: people now, and I know just from the letters, how 634 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 4: much it means for them to have interaction even though 635 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 4: I'm a stranger with somebody who's in prison. 636 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 6: Feel invested in the world and know that people aren't 637 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 6: invested in you. That makes a big difference. 638 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: You'd be surprised how far a car will go to 639 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 1: lift the person spirit up, like I mean, you'd be 640 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: surprised and just you know what, like Amanda was saying, Look, 641 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: we can't cage people up like animals, feed them like animals, 642 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: and then release them and sell them to be human. 643 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: I mean, that goes against everything that they you know, 644 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: you've been putting them through for all those years. So 645 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,759 Speaker 1: I just think that that what you just said, the 646 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: communication a close interaction with society, and that will go 647 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: a long way. Jason, Trust me, they are people who 648 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,320 Speaker 1: search every day for pen pals. They go in and 649 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,879 Speaker 1: look at newspapers to see people to write, Look, they 650 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: are in me. They would love that. 651 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 4: One idea I had is what if everyone was listening, 652 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 4: or a lot of people are listening, to write a 653 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 4: letter to somebody who's an innocent person who's suffering through 654 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 4: the holidays on the inside, who maybe doesn't have family, 655 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,359 Speaker 4: doesn't have any really reason to celebrate. A letter could 656 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 4: make such a big difference. So here's what you do. 657 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 4: Go to Instagram at Wrongful Conviction or go to our 658 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 4: Facebook page which is Facebook dot com slash Wrongful Conviction 659 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 4: Podcast and you'll get some details and you'll be able 660 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 4: to share some strength and some hope and hopefully even 661 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 4: a little bit of joy with somebody on the inside 662 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 4: who can really use your help. Don't forget to give 663 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 4: us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. It 664 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 4: really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Ennocence 665 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,760 Speaker 4: Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting 666 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 4: this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. 667 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 4: Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to 668 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 4: donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, 669 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,359 Speaker 4: Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show 670 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 4: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be 671 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 4: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and 672 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 4: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason 673 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 4: Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and 674 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 4: association with Signal Company Number one