1 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: You're listening to Part Time Genius, a production of Kaleidoscope 2 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. Guess what Will? 3 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 2: What's that? Mango? 4 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: Do you know there are more than one hundred billion 5 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: stars in our galaxy alone and more than one hundred 6 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: billion galaxies in the universe, And also that scientists have 7 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: estimated that of all the stars that exists, somewhere between 8 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: ten and thirty percent have Earth like planets, which means 9 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: the odds of us truly being alone in the universe 10 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: is practically zero. 11 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: You should probably go and say it. Are you saying 12 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 2: aliens are real? 13 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: No? I'm saying what if? Where the aliens? And somewhere 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: on some distant planet, a couple of Neon green best 15 00:00:57,880 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: friends are recording a podcast about us. 16 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 2: You know, I never thought about it that way, And 17 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 2: I'm curious, have you been watching X Files again? 18 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 3: No? 19 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,559 Speaker 1: Something so much better. I read this incredible book called 20 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: Do Aliens Speak? 21 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 2: Physics? 22 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 1: And Other Questions about Science and the nature of Reality? 23 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: And it is hilarious, which you know, I never thought 24 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: i'd say about a book about physics or philosophy. But 25 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: it's also this really fascinating exploration of the idea that 26 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: we're not alone in the universe, and that other intelligent 27 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: life may have evolved the ability to study science and 28 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: the same way or in a completely different way than us. 29 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: So what does that mean for us humans? If aliens 30 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: ever do land here, will we be able to have 31 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: a great meeting of the minds or will we just 32 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: stare at each other in total confusion. Luckily, the book's 33 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: co author Daniel Whitson, who is an actual physicist and 34 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: a friend of yours and mine, agreed to talk it 35 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: through with thee so we had such a great conversation. 36 00:01:49,560 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: I'm really excited to dive in. So I am here 37 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: with Daniel Whitson, who I've known for quite a while, 38 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: but he's just put out this book Do Aliens speak physics? 39 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: And other questions about science and the nature of reality? 40 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: And Daniel, I've had this galley for a while and 41 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: it is really just so exciting and lovely and the 42 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: joyous read, but also something that's like way more philosophical 43 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: than I was expecting. So I'm very excited to get 44 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: into this. But one of our first questions, you know, 45 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: I'm sure this happens to you at a lot of parties. 46 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: You introduce yourself one says, oh, what do you do 47 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: when you say I'm a particle physicist, and then they're like, okay, 48 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: so what do you do? And I'm curious, how do 49 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:53,679 Speaker 1: you answer this? 50 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 3: Well? 51 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 4: I usually start with a song because I heard an 52 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 4: amazing particle physics Explained by song episode on Part Time Genius, 53 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 4: and I thought that is the best way to explain 54 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 4: what we do. You know, we smash protons together at 55 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 4: nearly the speed of light and try to understand what 56 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,959 Speaker 4: is the nature of matter. But that's a big project. 57 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 4: It's thousands of people, it's billions of dollars. What do 58 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 4: I actually do? The best thing about particle physics is 59 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 4: that it's a big community, and so we all get 60 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 4: to specialize. There is somebody who really loves making the 61 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 4: collider work, and somebody else who really loves tuning the 62 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 4: ectro links to work super fast. My personal niche is 63 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 4: in the data analysis and the statistics. I am a 64 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 4: statistics nerd and I love programming, so I ended up 65 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 4: doing a lot of machine learning and statistics. I'm the 66 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 4: guy who like analyzes the data and says, do we 67 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 4: see this particle or not? How can we squeeze a 68 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 4: little bit more information. What if we use this new technique, 69 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 4: what if we talk to our friends in AI. What 70 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 4: if we bring in this machine learning pattern recognition thing? 71 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 4: Can we squeeze a little bit more information out of 72 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 4: this incredibly expensive and valuable data that tells us something 73 00:03:58,680 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 4: about the universe. 74 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: I love that. I also love the idea that making 75 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: things collide as a kid, whether it's like trucks or 76 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: cars or whatever, and then growing up and seeing the 77 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: value and seeing these collisions and understanding them can animate 78 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: a whole field of science. 79 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, it really is rooted in childhood curiosity first, because 80 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 4: like the question we're asking, what's the universe made out of? 81 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 4: It's a very simple question, right, It's a question people 82 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 4: have been asking for a long long time. And also 83 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 4: the technique in principle is simple, like let's take things apart. 84 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 4: Let's smash our toy trucks together and see what comes out. 85 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 4: Let's dismantle the toaster on the counter and see what's 86 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 4: in it. And that's just what we're doing. Let's take 87 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 4: stuff apart as much as we can, as powerfully as 88 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 4: we can, and see what's inside, because we want to 89 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 4: know what is everything? Mad I've one of the smallest 90 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 4: bits of the universe what really determines who we are 91 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 4: and why we're here. 92 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: You know, from the first time I heard you talk, 93 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: I was just so enamored with the way you explain things. 94 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 1: And you've written a couple of books now, and they're 95 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: really incredible explainers of the world and science and physics 96 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: and the universe. And I'm curious, like, how did you 97 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: get to this idea about encountering intelligent life and within 98 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: the universe and exchanging science ideas with intelligent life? Like 99 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: have you always been interested in aliens? Have you always 100 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: wondered about this? 101 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 5: Like? 102 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,239 Speaker 1: Where? Where does this obsession come from? 103 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, this obsession comes from just wanting to know the answers. 104 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 4: One of the things that appealed to me about physics 105 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 4: was the idea that it wasn't just a question we 106 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 4: were asking here on Earth, that the questions we're probing 107 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 4: were universal questions, not just like what is stuff on 108 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 4: Earth made out of? But what is stuff on Jupiter 109 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 4: made out of? What is stuff in the other star systems? 110 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 4: What is stuff around the universe made out of? That 111 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 4: appealed to me that these questions were universal, and so 112 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 4: that makes me wonder if there are people out there, 113 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 4: not people, but like other beings out there working on 114 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 4: the same questions, and maybe they have the answers, And 115 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 4: that's an incredibly powerful feeling of like, I don't know, 116 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 4: envy or jealousy, Like what is if there are aliens 117 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 4: out there that have been working on this for millions 118 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 4: of years and they could just tell us the answers 119 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 4: they know, right, Like it's fun to figure this out. 120 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 4: But man, if somebody could just download the answers into 121 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 4: my brain today, oh yeah, absolutely, I would press that 122 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 4: button in a second. If I could like read Wikipedia 123 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 4: from the future and just get like a general introduction 124 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 4: to what people are thinking in a million years, I 125 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 4: would definitely do that. And that's not possible, But it's 126 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 4: sincerely likely that there are aliens out there and it's 127 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 4: possible they're doing science and that makes me wonder if 128 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 4: we could just take advantage of all of their knowledge. 129 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 4: But then it also makes me a little bit skeptical 130 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 4: because that idea is so tempting. It's also flattering. It 131 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 4: says that the questions we're asking and the solutions we've 132 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 4: begun to build, they're like at the center of the 133 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 4: intellectual universe. It puts us right at the heart of it. 134 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 4: It makes us important. And you know, anytime you have 135 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 4: a theory that makes you at the center of the universe, 136 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 4: you should be extras have to come of it, because 137 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 4: you know, you want to believe it. And folks like 138 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 4: Carl Seigen say aliens will come up with similar explanations 139 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,239 Speaker 4: for what's happening around their star as what's happening around ours, 140 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 4: because the laws of physics are universal. But I wonder 141 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 4: if the explanations are universal, if their description of it 142 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 4: is universal can be translated, if we really could enact 143 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 4: my fantasy of like an interstellar science conference and just 144 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 4: skip forward into our scientific future. 145 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: I think all of that's so fascinating, And this idea 146 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: that science or physics could like possibly be a fundamentally 147 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: human thing, you know, that exists within sort of like 148 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: the boundaries of the human understanding and perception, and that 149 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: aliens could actually be interpreting this universe in a very 150 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: very different way. 151 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, because we don't have pure or unfettered access to 152 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 4: the universe. We see the universe through our human lens, 153 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 4: and we don't know without seeing it through another lens, 154 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 4: like an alien lens. How to separate which parts of 155 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 4: the interpretations were making our human and which parts are 156 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 4: real and are true. And we like to assume that 157 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 4: everything we're learning is deep and true and fundamental, and 158 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 4: of course everybody else would also be doing string theory, right, 159 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 4: but we don't know that. And so the book is 160 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 4: really an exercise in asking, like, well, what can we 161 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 4: say about how much humanity there is in our physics? 162 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 4: And you mentioned earlier that the book has a surprising 163 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 4: amount of philosophy in it. That's exactly the hook, because 164 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 4: I originally wanted to write a book about is our 165 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 4: physics discovered or invented? You know, is our physics the 166 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 4: map or the territory? Is it human or is it universal? 167 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 4: And I pitched this to my fourteen year old at 168 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 4: the time, and he was like, yawn, boring, And I 169 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 4: was so disappointed. I seriously thought he was going to 170 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 4: be excited about that. But I took it to heart, 171 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 4: and you know, you got to take notes when you 172 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 4: get him. And so then I came back to him 173 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 4: with this idea of, well, what if aliens arrived, can 174 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 4: we talk to them about physics? And he was like, oh, 175 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 4: I would read that book and I was like, it's 176 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 4: the same book, and so I got to write my 177 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 4: philosophy book. But in the context of this question about aliens, 178 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 4: there's a lot of fascinating philosophical framing of your typical 179 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 4: science questions that I thought people should be aware of, 180 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 4: and so it gave me an excuse to read all 181 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 4: of those books and talk to those philosophers, and also 182 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 4: to get to answer what I thought was a really 183 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 4: fun philosophical question, or at least tackle it. You know, 184 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 4: there are no hard answers in philosophy. 185 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: So you read about something called the Drake equation, which 186 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 1: is pretty lengthy, but basically it lays out the conditions 187 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: we'd need for aliens to contact us, and I'm wondering, 188 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: can you explain that and is it really valid from 189 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: a scientific perspective. 190 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, the Drake equation is fun because you first look 191 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 4: at it, it's just a bunch of numbers multiplied together, 192 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 4: and you're like, some guy got an equation named after him, 193 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 4: or just multiplying numbers together, Like what you know, this 194 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 4: is not the Schrodinger equation, This is not this lagrangea 195 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 4: in a standard model physics. But the structure of the 196 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 4: equation contains a really important insight. As you say, it's 197 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 4: a way to try to estimate how many aliens there 198 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 4: are out there that we might be capable of communicating with. 199 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 4: And essentially it's fairly simple. It just says, start with 200 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 4: the number of stars in the universe, and multiply by 201 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 4: the fraction of those that have planets, and the fraction 202 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 4: of those planets that have life, in the fraction of 203 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 4: those planets with life that develop intelligence, and the fraction 204 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 4: of those that develop civilization capable of sending signals. Then 205 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 4: multiplied by how long they are around. And the crucial 206 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 4: thing about the structure is because it's multiplication, if any 207 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 4: of those numbers are zero, it's hopeless. It doesn't matter. 208 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 4: If you have a trillion planets, if none of them 209 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 4: have life, you still get in the answer zero. If 210 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 4: you have a trillion planets and they're all covered with life, 211 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 4: but it's just like slime and there's no intelligent life, 212 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 4: you're still getting zero. You need stars, you need planets, 213 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 4: you need life, you need civilization, you need technology. You 214 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 4: need to happen at the right time, otherwise we're not 215 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 4: hearing anything. And I took that as inspiration to extend 216 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 4: and said, well, you know, that's cool, but I don't 217 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 4: just want there to be aliens out there that maybe 218 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 4: we get a message from. I want aliens to be 219 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 4: out there who are scientific, who we have curiosity in 220 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 4: common with, and whose answers we might be able to like, 221 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 4: actually understand. And so I narrated even further. You know, 222 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 4: I posed an even harder question than Drake and said, 223 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 4: to answer the question like, how many aliens are there 224 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:16,839 Speaker 4: we can actually do science with, which has to be, 225 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 4: of course, a smaller number than Drake's number, and maybe zero. 226 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: But it feels like, you know, with the one hundred 227 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: billion galaxies in the universe and billions of stars, and 228 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: the estimation the ten to thirty percent of these stars 229 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: of Earth like planets, right, I mean like it changes 230 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: your perspective to the sense that maybe we aren't alone. 231 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: I think there's something really exciting about that. 232 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 4: Well, you're right, it's really exciting to live in a 233 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 4: time when we are learning about one of those numbers 234 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 4: that we didn't know before, right thirty years ago, with 235 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 4: the fraction of stars that have planets around them totally unknown, 236 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 4: we'd only seen like the few planets in our Solar system, 237 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 4: and now he's seen thousands and thousands of planets around 238 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 4: other stars. That's tremendously exciting that that number is big, right, 239 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 4: thirty percent ish, like even if it's ten percent, Like, 240 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 4: it's huge. There's billions of planets. That's wonderful news. But right, 241 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 4: the Drake equation throws cold water on that because the 242 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 4: other numbers we just don't know, like what is the 243 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 4: fraction of those planets that have life on them? Because again, 244 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 4: you got to have all those pieces in place, and 245 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 4: we like to believe that there might be life out there. 246 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 4: I'd like that to be the answer, But that's why 247 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 4: we got to be skeptical, because we tend to believe 248 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 4: things we want to be true, and you know, science 249 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 4: is about the data. 250 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's definitely true. 251 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: So one of the things I love about this book 252 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: is that it's filled with little cartoons and they show 253 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: what would happen if, like, you know, aliens made contact 254 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: with us. They're like funny and ridiculous that they just 255 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: make the experience even more joyous. But it made me 256 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: realize that so much of what shapes my thinking about 257 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: alien contact comes from fiction and nonscience. And I was curious, 258 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: are there any favorite sci fi depictions of aliens that 259 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 1: inspired you or that you wish to be true? 260 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 4: Obviously they were all true almost in a while. That's 261 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 4: a great question. I think science fiction is undervalued. I 262 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 4: think it's not really taken seriously enough because science fiction 263 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 4: is where people get creative and they think about alternative universes. 264 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 4: What if aliens are like this? What if aliens is 265 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 4: are like that? And I love reading science fiction with 266 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 4: aliens that surprise me, you know. I read Blind Site 267 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 4: by Peter Watts totally blew me away, will not spoil it, 268 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 4: but incredible aliens in that. I read Shroud by Alien Tchaikowski, 269 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 4: very recent book, mind blowing aliens in that one really creative, 270 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 4: or like the Aliens and Enders game, I think it's 271 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 4: probably fair to spoil that one, you know, the hive mind, 272 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 4: very creative. I really like Alistair Reynolds Aliens. So many 273 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 4: great books out there, and I think these guys are 274 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 4: doing the important work of thinking how different could aliens be, 275 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 4: how alien could they be? Of breaking out of our 276 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 4: human box and imagining other ways life and intelligence, and 277 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 4: then maybe science could operate. And that's the hard part, 278 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 4: right We don't know what's out there. We have this 279 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 4: example of one and we extrapolate from it, and then 280 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 4: we tried to tweak it, but we don't really know 281 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 4: where the edges of the box are. And that's one 282 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 4: of the reasons why I decided to work on this 283 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 4: book with Andy Warner, because I thought it was really 284 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 4: valuable to think concretely and visually. 285 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 3: About what these aliens might be like. 286 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 4: And he's a fantastic non fiction cartoonist, and I just 287 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 4: cold emailed him and said, hey, want to work on 288 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 4: a book about aliens together, and he wrote right back. 289 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 3: I knew I had the right person. 290 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: One of the things that's fascinating to me is just 291 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: like a small detail in the book, but something I 292 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: had never actually contemplated was that the word scientist wasn't 293 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: even used until the eighteen thirties. 294 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 4: I was shocked to learn that as well. And in 295 00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 4: writing this book, I did a lot of research into 296 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 4: the history of science. For me, it's a great excuse 297 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 4: to get to dig into these topics, and I thought 298 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 4: that was really important as a way to show people 299 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 4: that the way we think about science is something that's 300 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 4: been happening on Earth for like a century ish. It's 301 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 4: a very modern thing, and it could change. We see 302 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 4: it changing, actually, like the context and the cultural institutions 303 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 4: of science, and it matters. Like if aliens arrive, we think, oh, 304 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 4: we'll send them our physicists. They'll be at the chalkboard 305 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 4: talking about science. But like, who are they going to 306 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 4: send Do they have physicists? Do they have beings in 307 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 4: their culture who dedicate their whole life to understanding the 308 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 4: universe that want to come and talk to us. Five 309 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 4: hundred years ago, we might have sent our priests to 310 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 4: go talk to visiting aliens. The process of science itself 311 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 4: has been changing. You know, people imagine this this pop 312 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 4: size story about like science being invented five hundred years 313 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 4: ago by Galileo and Bacon and a few other white dudes, 314 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 4: and like it's much more complicated than that. You know, 315 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 4: the Greeks don't often get credit for experiments, but like 316 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 4: they measured the radius of the Earth, and folks all 317 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 4: over the globe we're like doing experiments and learning about 318 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 4: the nature of the universe. And so science is a 319 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 4: long history and we think it's still changing. So in 320 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 4: a thousand years, we may be doing a very different 321 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 4: kind of science than we are now in a way 322 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 4: that we look back on and we think, wow, that 323 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 4: was really primitive. Can you really call that modern science? 324 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 4: And so of course we're interested in the questions the 325 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 4: aliens are asking and the ideas they have, but also 326 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 4: you have to wonder, like, are they doing science the 327 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 4: way that we're doing it. It turns out to be 328 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 4: a very human activity driven by our human emotions. 329 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean what was interesting to me too, is 330 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: like this question of math and whether it's actually universal. 331 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: You propose this question in the book, and how presumably 332 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: like intelligent life would want to be able to count 333 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: things with us, like food or offspring or whatever. And 334 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: we know that animals on earth to this, but we 335 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: don't know whether this is actually a basic element of intelligence. 336 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, it's something that's the foundation or the way 337 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 4: we think, and so we imagine it might be, it 338 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 4: should be, it must be. I don't know, at the 339 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 4: foundation of the way everybody thinks. But that's very dangerous extrapolation. 340 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 4: And this question, you know, is math something that we 341 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 4: found in the universe, a feature of nature itself, or 342 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 4: a shorthand in the way that we think, an insight 343 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 4: into the way the human brain works. People have tried 344 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 4: to understand this, and you know, there's great arguments on 345 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 4: both sides. And I remember, for years I was deeply 346 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 4: convinced that math was fundamental to the universe because it 347 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 4: pops up so beautifully in physics and seems to fall 348 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 4: out so naturally. I remember as a junior taking quantum 349 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 4: mechanics and seeing this calculation that measures some property of 350 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 4: a subatomic particle, and then they go off and they 351 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 4: do the experiment and the two things agree to like 352 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 4: eight decimal places. And I got chills because I felt like, Okay, 353 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 4: this isn't some approximation. We've revealed the source code, man, like, 354 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 4: this is how the universe decides what happens to an electron. 355 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 4: I had that feeling. I was like, whoa, it's almost spiritual. Yeah, 356 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 4: And so it is like math feels like so powerful, 357 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 4: so unreasonably effective. It's very tempting to say it must 358 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 4: be part of the universe. And you know, I got 359 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 4: the amazing opportunity to talk to Num Chomsky about aliens 360 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 4: because he answers all of his email, and I asked him, like, 361 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 4: how would you start talking aliens? And he was like, yeah, arithmetic, right, 362 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 4: one plus one equals two. You start from there. But 363 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 4: the more you read in philosophy, the more you see 364 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 4: there are two signs to this question. We know that 365 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 4: math is very powerful for our science, but we don't 366 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 4: know that it's necessary. It might just be that math 367 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 4: is very powerful for us and feel so natural because 368 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 4: it's part of who we are. We're not guaranteed that 369 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 4: aliens have to find the same sort of mental shortcuts handy. 370 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 4: They might have a different way of thinking and express 371 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 4: it naturally and joyfully in another kind of intellectual language. 372 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: I mean, part of what's so amazing about this book 373 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: and this thought experiment, right is it really makes you 374 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: contemplate how we as humans work, and you point out 375 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: that there are words in certain languages that don't actually 376 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: translate to specific things, or you only have an approximation 377 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: of them, and all these communication barriers that exist just 378 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 1: on this one planet. You know how insane it is 379 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,719 Speaker 1: to think about are immediately being able to communicate with 380 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: an alien? 381 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 4: I know, and I watched Contacts and I loved it, 382 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 4: and I wish it would happen. 383 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 3: But I am not very bullish on that prospect. 384 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 4: And you know, I'm a huge fan of SETI, and 385 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 4: I think we should be funding it and doing it, 386 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 4: listening to this guy and all sorts of channels. Absolutely, 387 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 4: But in writing this book, I've convinced myself that it 388 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 4: might be impossible to get a message from space and 389 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 4: actually decode it because translation is cultural and arbitrary. There's 390 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 4: no set of symbols that have only one interpretation, and 391 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 4: that means that you have to know how to invert 392 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 4: it or deduce it, and that requires that you can 393 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 4: recognize when you've done it right. Say we get a 394 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 4: message from aliens and we're like, oh, maybe they this 395 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 4: means this. How would you know it's correct if the 396 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 4: ideas themselves are super alien? Right, And we have this 397 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 4: hilarious example of this, it's wonderful, honestly, example of this 398 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 4: with a Pioneer plaque which Carl Sagan and Frank Drake 399 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 4: and folks designed to put on the Pioneer Probe, which 400 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 4: is sent out into the Cosmos decades ago, and it's 401 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 4: still out there and it carries this message from humanity. 402 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 4: And you know, in their defense, I think they only 403 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 4: were given two weeks to design this thing. So I 404 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:26,719 Speaker 4: don't know what I could have done two weeks, but 405 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 4: they did their best to come up with ideas that 406 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 4: might be easy to interpret, and so of course they 407 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 4: didn't write it in English. They used simple pictograms, you know, 408 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 4: like an image of a hydrogen atom that looks sort 409 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 4: of the cartoon, you know, solar system orbital images of 410 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 4: a hygen atom, to try to convey what might happen 411 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 4: in the hydrogen atom, et cetera, et cetera. And I 412 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 4: love the enthusiasm of it, but the chances that aliens 413 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 4: get that and they look at it and they're like, oh, yeah, 414 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 4: that's a hydrogen atom requires so much cultural commonality. I 415 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 4: actually did an experiment where I showed the Pioneer plaque 416 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 4: to a bunch of UCI physics ride students, Like what 417 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 4: better audience could you hope for? These are like biological 418 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 4: humans in the same culture studying physics, and they had 419 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 4: no clue what this thing was. Right, They're young enough 420 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 4: to not have seen it before, and so I think 421 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 4: it's almost hopeless to imagine that some aliens are going 422 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 4: to actually understand what Carl Seigen was trying to say, 423 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 4: or that conversely, we could, which is in the book 424 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 4: why I focused more on the scenario the aliens have arrived, 425 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 4: because if they arrive, we do have a context in common. 426 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 4: We're they're in the same place. We can point at 427 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 4: things and we can try to work up from there 428 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 4: to build some kind of connection. 429 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 3: But it's going to be challenging. 430 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 4: I mean, we have struggled to make contact with other 431 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 4: intelligence species on our planet. Right, Whales are saying something 432 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 4: to each other. 433 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 3: What is it? 434 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 4: We don't know, right, We've been working on it, like dolphins, 435 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 4: who knows what they're trying to tell us. But if 436 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 4: the aliens arrive, I think we have a shot at it. 437 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 4: If we just get a message, it can just be 438 00:21:52,880 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 4: like the Wow signal, just like a mystery forever. 439 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 1: One of the other things that you pointed out, which 440 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: I hadn't entirely thought about, was how we are curious species. 441 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: We actually did just do a series on curiosity, but 442 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: what you've mentioned is that we're curious about almost everything, 443 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: and we're constantly making decisions about what to pay attention to. 444 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: And then this example of that a tennis match, you 445 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 1: washed the ball going back and forth, but you're probably 446 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: not counting the blades of grass on the court, right, 447 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: And how we use these inputs to organize our stories. 448 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: And that really made me think differently, not just about 449 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 1: how aliens are perceiving the Earth, but also about your 450 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: communication example, right, like what we're sending makes it that 451 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 1: much harder if what they're curious about and the way 452 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: they perceive things is so different from the way we communicate. 453 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 454 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 4: Absolutely, And we imagine that our senses give us like 455 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 4: a revelation of the universe, but we know it's limited, right. 456 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 4: We know that there's UV light and radio waves and everything. 457 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 4: I'm not seeing that, And we also know there's like 458 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 4: nutrinos and dark matter and curved space, time and all 459 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 4: sorts of stuff going on that's invisible to us, And 460 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 4: so we see a tiny slice of the universe. And 461 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 4: you're right, like aliens could be communicating with us in 462 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 4: any of these means. Maybe they're sending us gravitational waves, 463 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 4: who knows. But more deeply than that, I think the 464 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 4: nature of our senses really affects the kind of answers 465 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 4: we accept about physics. It defines what we think is understandable. 466 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 4: Like think about the explanation that you typically hear in 467 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 4: popular science about a photon, Oh, it's a particle or 468 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 4: it's a wave, or it's both. It's some weird combination. Right, 469 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 4: What that is is a translation from the unfamiliar. A 470 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 4: photon is actually some weird quantum object that's not a particle, 471 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 4: it's not a wave. It's something new and outside of 472 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 4: our intuition translated into the language of our minds. And 473 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 4: it's not satisfying because that translation is imperfect. But we've 474 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 4: insisted on it, right, We demand that everything be translated 475 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 4: into some sort of natural, intuitive set of concepts that 476 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 4: are defined by our experience, and I think our perception, 477 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 4: and so I think if aliens have a very different 478 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 4: set of perceptual tools, even if they, like us, build 479 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 4: technologies to go beyond it, they still will be translating 480 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 4: that back into their mental language. You know, the set 481 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 4: of things that they would find acceptable as explanations might 482 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 4: be very different from ours. And that drives our science, 483 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 4: as you say, it's curiosity. The reason I'm a physicist 484 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 4: is I'm just so curious about the way the universe 485 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 4: works at the microscopical level. And somebody else is slashing 486 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 4: around in the rainforest with wet sox because they just 487 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 4: got to know how spiders reproduce or whatever. And that's 488 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,159 Speaker 4: awesome and I love it. And that's why we're not 489 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 4: all particle physicists, which is good. And so there's a 490 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 4: lot of human curiosity and a lot of the human 491 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 4: perception I think, and the questions and the answers of science. 492 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it does make you wonder too, right, But 493 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: like there are all these miss stories of the universe, 494 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: and like, is it that we haven't figured it out 495 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: because it's impossible to do so, or is it because 496 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: we're really limited by these human brains of ours? 497 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 4: Right, it has dropped that nightmare scenario and it's right, 498 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 4: what if it's impossible to figure out the universe? Yeah, 499 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 4: And that's a great philosophical assumption because you know, at 500 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 4: the heart of science is this assumption that the universe 501 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 4: follows laws and that we can figure them out. Repeated 502 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 4: experiments will reveal them. How do we know that, Well, 503 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 4: it's worked for hundreds of years. We think the laws 504 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 4: of physics are there and stationary. Right, But it is 505 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 4: a philosophical assumption, and we don't know in every scenario 506 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 4: if that's true. If there's some like region where the 507 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 4: universe is chaotic in some way that's beyond explanation. Right, If, 508 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 4: as some philosophers say, things just sort of happen by half, 509 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 4: it could be the mind revolts at that idea, like 510 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 4: that's impossible. 511 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 3: Come on, the universe. 512 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 4: There's something that's happening for a reason, and it has 513 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 4: to But you know, there's so many times in the 514 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 4: history of physics where the universe has revealed itself to 515 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 4: be so counter to our intuition. The things we just 516 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 4: assumed were obvious we're shown to not be true always. 517 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 4: You know, like the idea that if an object is 518 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 4: here and then it's there, that it has to go 519 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 4: from here to there. Duh, right, But quantum mechanics says no, 520 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 4: you can be here and then later you can be there. Oh, 521 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 4: and in between can be an impossible barrier. So you 522 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 4: didn't go from here to there. You were here and 523 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 4: then you were there boom what. So you have to 524 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 4: be alert to these assumptions. We don't know if the 525 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 4: universe is figure out a bull or explain a bull, 526 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 4: or if there is even a fundamental truth out there. 527 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 4: The aliens could show up and they could be like, yeah, 528 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 4: we've been working on our for millions of years, and 529 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 4: there's this little bit that kind of works, and that 530 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 4: little bit that kind of works. But there's no single truth. 531 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 4: You can't stitch it all together and just one big 532 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 4: glorious tapestry of knowledge and information. Right, that could be 533 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 4: the future. And to me, wow, that's a nightmare because 534 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 4: that means that there aren't answer to the deepest questions 535 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 4: in the universe, right, please? 536 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 3: I hope not. 537 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: So. I know you talked about reaching out to Chomsky. 538 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: Who else did you get to speak to in this 539 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: process and what was the process of writing this book. 540 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 3: Like for you? 541 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 4: I talked to basically anybody who would talk to me. 542 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 4: I cold emailed so many philosophers and historians. I interacted 543 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 4: with Daniel Dannett before he passed about questions of like 544 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 4: how much of the universe could we actually understand, which 545 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 4: is super fascinating. I talked to lots of folks here 546 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 4: at UC Irvine. We have a like top notch logic 547 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 4: and philosophy of science department, and folks here really helped 548 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 4: me understand some tricky things in philosophy. They all read 549 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 4: the draft and that was a terrifying process. You know, 550 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 4: you go off, you do this reading. It's not your area. 551 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 4: You think you've understood it well enough to explain it 552 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 4: to the general public. But to me, the accuracy is 553 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 4: so important. So I sent it back to the experts. 554 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 4: I was like, please shred this, like find something in 555 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 4: this that you think might be a little misleading. And 556 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 4: you know you're terrified when you get their notes back. 557 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 4: But it's important, and it's better, of course to hear 558 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 4: those things before you published than after. So for me 559 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 4: it was like a joyful exercise of self education. I 560 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 4: had never read Science Without Numbers by Heartreyfield, but I 561 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 4: read that book, and i'd never read How the Laws 562 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 4: of Physics Live by Nancy Cartwright, who suggests that there 563 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 4: is no answer out there. So I read a lot 564 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 4: of books on philosophy, and I talked to a lot 565 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 4: of people, and I had a lot of fun. It's 566 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 4: so much fun thinking and reading. I did a deep 567 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 4: dive into the history of the development of science, because 568 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 4: I wondered about alternative Earth's alternative paths, the thought experiment 569 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 4: of like what if we hadn't wiped out the Mayan civilization, 570 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,959 Speaker 4: what astronomy would they be doing today and how different 571 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 4: would it be? Or what if the Chinese had gone 572 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 4: deep into math? And physics instead of diverting into material 573 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 4: science and inventing gunpowder. You know, if you ran the 574 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 4: experiment of like having a thousand earths, where would we 575 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 4: all be scientifically? Would we all have eventually stumbled into 576 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 4: the same stuff or would we be vastly different questions 577 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 4: and answers. It's really fun to read about like ancient 578 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 4: Mayan astronomers, and they recently found not just writings of minds, 579 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 4: which tragically most of those were destroyed by the Spanish, 580 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 4: but places where you could see them doing calculations or 581 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 4: they're like trying to figure stuff out. So like thinking 582 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 4: through these things, and it really made me want to 583 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:27,959 Speaker 4: be able to talk to them. 584 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 3: I would love to get. 585 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 4: In the minds of early people trying to solve these problems, 586 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 4: tackling these big unknown questions of where we are in 587 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 4: the universe without the benefit of all the giants that 588 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 4: we stand on. So I had a great time. I 589 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 4: learned so much writing this book, and I had a 590 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 4: great time with Andy because I would write a first 591 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 4: draft and he would add a bunch of stuff to it. 592 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 4: He knows so much fascinating history of science and language. 593 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 4: And then of course he did all of his Doodles, 594 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 4: which I always look forward to seeing the first draft 595 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 4: of because they're so clever and so insightful, and to me, 596 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 4: it's a really important part of the book is to 597 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 4: have these visuals, not just because they help explain, but 598 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 4: they sort of lighten the mood a little bit. There's 599 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 4: different kinds of science books out there. This is the 600 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 4: ones that like, maybe you didn't really understand everything, but 601 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 4: you felt like you were in the presence of a 602 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 4: great mind. That's not my favorite kind of science book. 603 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 4: I want people to really get it, and I want 604 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 4: them to feel comfortable, and I feel like having cartoons 605 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 4: and jokes, you know, it makes you feel like, hey, 606 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 4: these guys don't take themselves too seriously, and also it 607 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 4: mixes it up. You get like a big philosophical idea, 608 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 4: then you get a dad joke and a mental. 609 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: Break, which I appreciate and honestly like my dad's past. 610 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: But my dad would have loved this book. You know. 611 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: There's something so funny about what you're saying about just 612 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: knowing that you're in the presence of someone great but 613 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: not being able to decipher what the content is. There's 614 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: an intro to a Gertrude steinbook that Bert Surf, who 615 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: is the founder of Random House, included and in front 616 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: of it, it's basically saying it's copying to the fact 617 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: that he doesn't understand most of what she's saying, but 618 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: it is publishing it because it's brilliant. 619 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 4: Well, you know, there's a lot of great books out there, 620 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 4: like you know, Hawking's book A Brief History of Time. 621 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 4: I don't understand everything in that book. And then I think, like, well, 622 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 4: what's it like for you know, a random person who 623 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 4: doesn't know a PhD In physics? What fraction are they getting? 624 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 4: And yet the book is widely popular, and I don't 625 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 4: know if it's not read or if it's just read 626 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 4: in a different way as people are just like you know, 627 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 4: enjoy hearing from this great person. But to me, I 628 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 4: want to make sure that everything in the book makes sense, 629 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 4: that you get it, because to me, that's the point 630 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 4: of science communication and not to denegrate anybody else's efforts. 631 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 4: But I think is you know there's different approaches in 632 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,959 Speaker 4: mind is definitely make sure you get every bit of it. 633 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: One thing I had a question about is you're obviously 634 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: this very busy person you're a parent, You've got all 635 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: this responsibility at the university in terms of teaching and research, 636 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: and you also have a podcast, and somehow you've made 637 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: time to write this book and get a fact checked 638 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: and set out the philosophers all about stuff. I'm curious, like, 639 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: how do you find time to write and what's the 640 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: process of writing like for you? 641 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 4: To me, I work on the fun stuff. So being 642 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 4: a faculty member means you're constantly overload with with way 643 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 4: too many things to do, but you also got to choose, 644 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 4: like I'm gonna do this today, I'm gonna do that today. 645 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 4: And so I'm at the point in my career where 646 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 4: I can just like pick the fun bits focus on those, 647 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 4: and to me, this is the fun bit. Like thinking 648 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 4: about this stuff and reading about this stuff is exciting. 649 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 4: I probably could have put out a few more physics 650 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 4: papers if I hadn't written this book, but you know, 651 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 4: I'm still putting out ten papers a year. I think 652 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 4: I'm doing fine in that category. But to me, this 653 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 4: is exciting, and I think it informs my physics. It 654 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 4: makes me think broadly and gives me new ideas and 655 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 4: connects me with people who think differently and I think 656 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 4: it's really important as an academic not to get too 657 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 4: narrowly focused in your sub sub sub sub subfield and 658 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 4: to be inspired by people in adjacent area. So that's 659 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 4: the story I told myself when I was like reading 660 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 4: philosophy books instead of the reviewing some paper. But I 661 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 4: was just pulled to it, you know, I was excited 662 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 4: about it. I was curious about it. I wanted to 663 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 4: read that next thing, I wanted to write this next bit. 664 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 4: I just sort of like had a burning desire to 665 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 4: work on it. And that's to me how I know 666 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 4: that I've like found a project that I'm excited about 667 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 4: because I'm just pulled to work on it all the time. 668 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 5: I love that. 669 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: So, assuming there is intelligent, scientific alien life out there, 670 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: and assuming we have a way to communicate with it, 671 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: which is a lot of assuming, what is the one 672 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: question you'd like to ask and what's the one thing 673 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: you try to explain? 674 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 4: Man, why do I just get one question? You know, 675 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 4: got a long line of physicists. Everybody gets one question. 676 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 4: You know, I think I've sort of voted with my feet. 677 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 4: There's lots of questions about the universe you could ask, 678 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 4: and the one I asked in my career is what 679 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 4: is it made out of? Because yeah, I'd like to 680 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 4: know lots of things about what's inside a black hole, 681 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 4: et cetera, or how do the universe begin? But to me, 682 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,719 Speaker 4: the most important question is what are the bits? And 683 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 4: are there even any Because if there are basic bits 684 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 4: of the universe, if there's like some fundamental thing which 685 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 4: just has to exist and defines the nature of the universe, 686 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 4: it can't be taken apart, it always exists, it's not 687 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,439 Speaker 4: emergent or composite, then that tells you something deep about 688 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 4: the universe itself. It reveals its inherent nature in a 689 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 4: way that like chemistry doesn't and even particle physics. Now, 690 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 4: because we don't think we found those pieces, we have 691 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 4: these approximate theories that describe really zoomed out stuff. We 692 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 4: don't really know what the universe is made out of. 693 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 4: And I want to know that. Or if mind blowingly 694 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,320 Speaker 4: like it's not made of anything, it's just everything is 695 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 4: made of smaller stuff, which is made of smaller stuff 696 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 4: in infinite tower of craziness. I also want to know that. 697 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 4: So that would be my number one question. 698 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 1: And is there one thing you try to explain. 699 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 4: I would hope that there's some cute bit of currently 700 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 4: irrelevant mathematics that might solve some alien problem. I love 701 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 4: how in the history of science we have this pattern 702 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 4: where mathematicians develop some little bit of mathematics like group theory, 703 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 4: not because it's useful, just because there are wonderful nerds 704 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 4: who think patterns are fun, and they made up some 705 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 4: games and like, oh, look at the cool stuff that 706 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 4: comes out of this, and then one hundred years later 707 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 4: physicists are like, oh, actually, that's what we need to 708 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 4: solve this problem over here. 709 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:17,760 Speaker 3: Thank you. 710 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 4: You know, like group theory perfectly explains how fundamental particles 711 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,439 Speaker 4: interact in a way nobody expected when people were coming 712 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 4: up with this stuff one hundred years earlier. And so 713 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 4: maybe there some bit of weird human math that like 714 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 4: clicks perfectly into an alien physics puzzle, and together, you know, 715 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 4: our chocolate and their peanut butter can unravel the nature 716 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 4: of the universe. 717 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: I love that. That's a really lovely place to stop. 718 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: You know, your book is so wonderful. It really is 719 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: something that people should gift, people should read, and I 720 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: think part of what's so amazing about it is one 721 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: you got me to read philosophy two you got me 722 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: to like really think about humans and what we know 723 00:35:58,880 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: about ourselves. 724 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 3: Well, thank you for reading it, and thank you for 725 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 3: the kind words. 726 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 4: And I hope that folks out there enjoy this tour 727 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 4: philosophy with a little bit of aliens and if you 728 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,360 Speaker 4: enjoy thinking about physics in the universe. I have a 729 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 4: fun podcast, Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe on iHeartRadio. 730 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 3: Go check it out. 731 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,879 Speaker 1: It's wonderful. So thank you so much, Daniel, I really 732 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 1: appreciate it. 733 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me on super fun conversation. Wow. 734 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 2: Okay, first of all, this has totally changed the way 735 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 2: I think about what would happen if aliens landed on Earth, 736 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 2: because you know, we always talk in terms of alien invasions, right, 737 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 2: and now I'm like, maybe they would just want to 738 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 2: come here and tell us about their physics research. 739 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, more like an intergalactic science fair than an invasion. 740 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:42,879 Speaker 3: Yeah. 741 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 2: I mean it sounds way more interesting and a lot 742 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 2: less dangerous, of course. But it's funny because until today 743 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 2: I'd never really thought about the practical implications of that 744 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 2: term intelligent life in the universe, and this conversation maybe 745 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 2: realize that if there's intelligent life out there, it's doing 746 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,879 Speaker 2: something with that intelligen I don't know, maybe science, maybe 747 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 2: other stuff too. 748 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, you could take that concept from the book and 749 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,760 Speaker 1: apply it to other disciplines, right, like alien philosophers, alien archaeologists, 750 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: alien interior designers. You know, we have no idea if 751 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 1: their approaches are universal and therefore similar to ours, or 752 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: if they're operating in such an alien context that it's 753 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 1: completely different. 754 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, we have no idea yet. 755 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 1: That's right. Well, maybe someday, but while we await the 756 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: answers to life, the universe and everything else. I would 757 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 1: like to thank Daniel Whitson for coming on the show. 758 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: He is so great. His book Do Alien Speak Physics 759 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: is available now at your local bookstore, and if it's 760 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,360 Speaker 1: not at your local library, you can request it. There's 761 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: also a link in our show notes and we will 762 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 1: be back next week with another brand new episode. But 763 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: from Will, Dylan, Gabe, Mary, and myself, thank you so 764 00:37:50,320 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: much for listening. Part Time Genius is a production of 765 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. This show is hosted by Will Pearson 766 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: and me Mongage Heatikler, and research by our good pal 767 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: Mary Philip Sandy. Today's episode was engineered and produced by 768 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: the wonderful Dylan Fagan, with support from Tyler Klang. The 769 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: show is executive produced for iHeart by Katrina Norvel and 770 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: Ali Perry, with social media support from Sasha Gay, trustee 771 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 1: Dara Potts and Viney Shoring. For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope 772 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 773 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.