1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: School of Humans. 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 2: This show follows the investigation of serial murders and contains 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 2: material that may be disturbing. Listener discretion ADVISEDZA. 4 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 3: Found with it's August seventeenth, two thousand and seven. Krugersdorp, 5 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 3: South Africa, a mining town outside at Johannesburg. A faded, 6 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 3: green and yellow housing complex called Casana Flats sits just 7 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 3: across from the local hospital, a building that has seen 8 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 3: better days. Inside one of the modest one bedroom apartments, 9 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 3: a group of ten faithful Christian worshippers has gathered in 10 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 3: preparation for war. It is the home of Cecilia Stein, 11 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 3: and the faithful have come to pray over her. You see, 12 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 3: Cecilia is a witch, a forty second generation witch to 13 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 3: be exact. She claims she was once married to Satan himself. 14 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 3: She even has a marriage certificate to prove it. But 15 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 3: these days, Cecilia says she's left Satanism behind. She now 16 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 3: seeks salvation from God's love. The members of this congregation, 17 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 3: which is devoted to fighting evil in all its forms, 18 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 3: call their group overcomers, Sir Christ. Their leader is a kind, generous, 19 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 3: fifty year old woman named Ria Gruneval. Tonight, she leads 20 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 3: her followers in songs and fervent prayer to cast the 21 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 3: devil out of this pale, thirty year old woman. They 22 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 3: will attempt to divorce Cecilia from her marriage to Satan 23 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 3: in hopes that these frequent possessions will cease. These believers 24 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 3: call this gathering a high Knight. Rihea gives the group 25 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 3: strict orders to keep a close watch on Cecilia, who 26 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,919 Speaker 3: sits on her bed, dead still, like a ticking time bomb. 27 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 3: Without warning, Cecilia bolts upright in bed. She spasms, her face, contorts, 28 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 3: her body jerks. She twists in her bed, convulsing violently. 29 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 3: She's possessed by a demon, or perhaps the devil himself. 30 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 3: What you're hearing now is a live recording of an 31 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 3: actual high Night possession. As the young woman thrashes about, 32 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 3: her body bends and gnarls, her voice screams, and her 33 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 3: soul cries out from. 34 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 4: Deep inside her. 35 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 3: Rhea and her followers exchange glances. They are in a 36 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 3: full on battle for this woman's soul. Cecilia's body whips 37 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 3: and snaps around in bed. It looks as if she's 38 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 3: being hit by invisible blows. The group understands these to 39 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 3: be attacks via astral projection. Cecilia is like a living 40 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 3: voodoo doll. The congregation fights even harder. They pray with conviction. 41 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 3: Rhea and her congregation are up against a spiritual wall. 42 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 3: They focus their energies on Cecilia, laying hands on her, 43 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 3: and blood bubbles from Cecilia's mouth. This doesn't stop them. 44 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 3: The believers implore the demons to release Cecilia from their grasp, 45 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 3: and then, just as suddenly as the attack began, Cecilia's 46 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 3: body goes limp. She collapses against the bed. She's zerily calm. 47 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 3: The tiny apartment is now hot, stuffy, the air still agitated, 48 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 3: the congregation size. They begin to whisper thanks pe to God. 49 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 3: In the battle for Cecilia's soul, They've won. They beat 50 00:03:52,120 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 3: the devil this time. My name is Kurt Kupachek. I'm 51 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 3: a filmmaker and storyteller, and this is the true story 52 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 3: behind the wrath of Cecilia Stein. 53 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 5: She's actually an evil person. 54 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 6: She was born and bred with the thought that she 55 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 6: has the power to kill. 56 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 3: In the world of murderous cults. If Charles Manson is King, 57 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 3: Cecilia Stein is Queen. 58 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 6: She conditioned them to be monsters. 59 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 7: Why step someone sixty five times in the chaste? 60 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 3: Motivated by power, greed, and revenge, Cecilia's cult, called Electus 61 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 3: Perdeis killed eleven people in her name and left the 62 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 3: lives of countless others in shambles. If you want to 63 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 3: get out of this, we will kill you. 64 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 8: This feels like everybody around you is giving murdered. 65 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 6: She is absolutely evil. 66 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 5: She is the devil. 67 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 6: She would do anything to get her way. 68 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 3: Foul of humans and iHeart podcasts. This is Queen Havoc 69 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 3: and her murder Cult Episode one Queen in the making. 70 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 3: After a couple of years researching, I was eager to 71 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 3: be on the ground to understand more about this devastating 72 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 3: case that gryptination and to investigate some of the gaps 73 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 3: in the story I'd read so much about. I wanted 74 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 3: to talk with people, look into the eyes of those 75 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 3: who lived through it, to hear first hand accounts from 76 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 3: both the survivors and the killers, who, in this bizarre instance, 77 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 3: are sometimes one and the same. What really hooked me 78 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 3: about this story was the detectives, the lengths to which 79 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 3: they had to go in order to end Cecilia Stein's 80 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 3: reign of murder in Mayhem eve at least a sense 81 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 3: of justice for the victims and their families. The detectives 82 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,559 Speaker 3: were everyday heroes, but not in some way that's easy 83 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 3: to define. In fact, some of them were dirty, which 84 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 3: is another part of this story. This is why we 85 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 3: wanted to speak with them and with everyone we could, 86 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 3: anyone who could tell us about this case and all 87 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 3: the horrors that were carried out in a holy name. 88 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 3: So producer Jennifer Tolkeeney and I traveled from Los Angeles 89 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 3: to South Africa, where this whole saga began. 90 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 9: Tomboy International Airport in Jahannesburg local time twenty eight minutes 91 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 9: by six o'clock, South Africa's standard time, and we'll be 92 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 9: talking you for the next few minutes. 93 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 3: Of Captain's halfway around the world. We traveled to meet 94 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 3: with detectives, journalists, psychologists, and we even got to speak 95 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 3: with some of the cult members themselves, the ones who 96 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 3: managed to stay alive, all of whom were forever changed 97 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 3: by Cecilia Stein. On the trail in South Africa, what 98 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,679 Speaker 3: we encountered was much more tragic than what we'd imagined 99 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 3: at the start. In short, The story changed us too. 100 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,159 Speaker 3: He told me about how he killed with that act. 101 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 3: In speaking with locals and investigating this story, we actually 102 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 3: shook things up a bit. We ended up unearthing things 103 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 3: that were meant to remain buried. We were even nearly 104 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 3: entangled in a police corruption investigation. This story is still 105 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 3: alive and it's still seeking justice. The Kruger's doorf cult killings, 106 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 3: as they're known in South Africa, were a grizzly chain 107 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 3: of events. To make sense of the near senseless brutality, 108 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 3: Let's get to know Kruger's Door, the small suburb about 109 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 3: forty minutes west the Johannesburg where the murders occurred, one 110 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 3: that is still tormented by these dark events. Eleven different 111 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 3: languages are spoken across South Africa. Most people in Krugersdorp 112 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 3: speak Afrikaans as their first language. To understand some of 113 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 3: the cultural context of South Africa, will turn to academics 114 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 3: and scholars, ones who were there at the time, like 115 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 3: doctor Nicki Falkoff. 116 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 4: These towns on the outskirts of Jannisburg, they feel like 117 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 4: places that time forgot. 118 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 3: Almost Nikki has spent her life studying South African culture 119 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 3: post apartheid, and has written extensively on the topic. Driving 120 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 3: through the Greater Johannes Bergeria and Kruger Store, you see 121 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 3: these high walls and imposing iron gates. They're everywhere. Nearly 122 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 3: every community is gated, sealed, closed off. It is a 123 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 3: rather perfect metaphor for the themes that emerge while we 124 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 3: reported on this story. For instance, when we choose walls 125 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 3: to protect ourselves, we must also consider who we choose 126 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 3: to let in and why these walls, the very things 127 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 3: we think are protecting us, can actually leave us vulnerable. 128 00:08:55,400 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 3: Do they provide protection or imprisonment? On the surface, the 129 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 3: confines of a cult make you feel like you belong, 130 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 3: That's why they're appealing. But after a while they begin 131 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 3: to serve as a reminder that once you're in, there's 132 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 3: no getting out. And finally, the biggest question in my mind, 133 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 3: what drives our inherent human need to belong to something? 134 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 3: And how do our relationships serve our efforts towards satiating 135 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 3: this primal desire. 136 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 10: We have some hijacking hotspots we used to avoid. Yeah, 137 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 10: so see traffic light at night? I wait like this 138 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 10: because if someone approaches my window right now, I've got 139 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 10: that much space to head forward and they have to run. 140 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 10: That's really good and you put your hand on the hooter. 141 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 3: Yes, that's me and my producing partner Jennifer Tikini driving 142 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 3: with Jermaine Kreher, who helped us now the Gate around 143 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 3: South Africa during our time there. 144 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 10: I'm a South African journalist working across a variety of 145 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 10: beats and mediums. 146 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 3: Jermaine quickly became an integral part of our team as 147 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 3: she grew up very close to Kruger's door. 148 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 10: I am a west Rand baby, born and bridge raised 149 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 10: on the Westrand, which is just a stone throwaway from Krugersdorp. 150 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 3: The west Rand is a district that implies west of 151 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 3: Johannesburg or Joeburg as the locals call it. Krugersdorp is 152 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 3: in this district as well. 153 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 9: We have very high levels of poverty across South Africa. 154 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 9: Krugelzorb specifically has very high levels of white poverty, which 155 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 9: makes it quite different from a lot of the other 156 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 9: regions in the same breath. Though it also has incredibly 157 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 9: rich and affluent areas, so it's got this absolute disparity 158 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 9: this contrast, and I think that probably had a big 159 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 9: influence in the case, specifically if you look at the 160 00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 9: economic crime elements of it. 161 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 3: We were very fortunate to have Jermaine's guidance, insight, and 162 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 3: logistical support. We also learned from the many people we 163 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 3: spoke to that South Africa is a fervently religious place. 164 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 3: Close to eighty percent of people identify as Christians nationwide, 165 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 3: many of them in Pentecostal or evangelical traditions. There are, 166 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 3: of course, and sexral traditions as well, but only five 167 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 3: percent identified with these belief systems in the general household survey. 168 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 3: And just to be clear, we are dealing with white 169 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 3: communities here, both the criminals and the victims in the US. 170 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 3: This was many people's first question when hearing about this case. 171 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 3: That being said, we can't talk about post apartheid South 172 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 3: Africa without acknowledging the racial dynamics underlying every aspect of 173 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 3: life there. The segregation of apartheid. It trained white South 174 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 3: Africans to live in a perpetual state of fear. They 175 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,599 Speaker 3: feared to imagine black violence due to the centuries of 176 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 3: violent oppression, which led to these modern terrified white people 177 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 3: hiding by towering white walls. Here's Niki fealkoff again. 178 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 4: There was this manifestation of a kind of really hysterical 179 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 4: Christian paranoia, particularly among white South Africa. 180 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 3: And there was a measurable uptick in communities of faith 181 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 3: leading up to South Africa's own version of Satanic panic 182 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 3: in the nineteen eighties. 183 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 4: Without a doubt, I think that structural conditions that are 184 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 4: one hundred percent related to apartheid but have been exacerbated 185 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 4: ever since, are the main driver of these kinds of behaviors. 186 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 4: It's not that Satan has an extra special foothold in 187 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 4: South Africa. 188 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 3: There are a number of theories as to what drove 189 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 3: the fervor, but it grew became ingrained within South African culture, 190 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 3: while the impending end of apartheid sowed the seeds of 191 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 3: a broader moral panic in fast sections of the white population, 192 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 3: and over time, these small, tight knit congregations like the 193 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 3: Overcomers through Christ became commonplace. There's someone else I'd like 194 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 3: you to meet, someone that is very important to this 195 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 3: story and a person I have come to respect and 196 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 3: admire greatly. 197 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 6: Suzeit knitze I started with the police in nineteen ninety 198 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 6: started at the Detective Service at our head office detectives. 199 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 3: Whosec. Canotse is a third generation detective, mother of two, 200 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 3: and served in the South African Police Service as a 201 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 3: satanic panic gain steam in the nineties. She was also 202 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 3: one of the detectives who worked on the Kruger's Dor 203 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 3: of Colt killings, and she's the person who first introduced 204 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 3: me to this case when I met her in Los 205 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 3: Angeles in twenty nineteen. 206 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 6: From there, in ninety two, I started with a unit 207 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 6: called the Occult Related Crimes. 208 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 3: Yep, you heard that right, that's the Occult Related Crimes 209 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 3: Unit or ORKUP, an entire unit of the police force 210 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 3: dedicated to investigating criminal activity with potential links to occult 211 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 3: rituals and practices, witchcraft, the supernatural matters of the spirit. 212 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 3: It was the only unit of its kind in the world, 213 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 3: formed in response to the sheer number of gruesome murders 214 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 3: and misdeeds being reported. Pretty wild, right. 215 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 6: We dealt with all kinds of occult related crimes, being Satanism, 216 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 6: being well, anything that had to do with the ocults. 217 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 6: Those kind of crimes I handled well myself and pinol Yonka. 218 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 3: She mentions doctor Colonel Cobis Jonker. He was the founder 219 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 3: and head of Orku, an author of a book called 220 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 3: Satanism in South Africa that outlines what kinds of crimes 221 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 3: they handled, those deemed occult in nature. He told us 222 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 3: about a couple of particularly macob cases he handled. Some 223 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 3: of these Satanic groups had some dreadful rituals. They often 224 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 3: involved exhumed corpses, severed body parts, and jewelry made from 225 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 3: human vertebrae. 226 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 11: And then I went up and opened the cupboard next 227 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 11: to him, and there I found that woman's head in 228 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 11: the cupboard. 229 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 3: Spine chilling. Crimes like this were happening regularly, and the 230 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 3: judicial system, also majority Christian, took satan very seriously. Demonic 231 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 3: possession was even taken into consideration and courts of law. 232 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 4: The judge basically said, occult and satanic possession would be 233 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 4: a viable reason in my courtroom for not being prosecuted 234 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 4: for a murder. 235 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 3: These stories of panic and ritual murder are meant to 236 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 3: emphasize the gravity of this movement. 237 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 12: The Satanic panic of the nineties was literally a panic 238 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 12: about the devil, the literal physical presence of the devil. 239 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 3: This fear of the devil is still very real for 240 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 3: South Africa and the people of Kruger's door. This frenzy 241 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 3: affected every level of society, courts, household, school, and people 242 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 3: like Ria Grunavald, Queen Havoc's first victim, or at least 243 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 3: the first that we know of. Ria Grunivald. She was 244 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 3: known as a pillar in her community, a devout Christian 245 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 3: and a mother then in her mid fifties. The members 246 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 3: of her small congregation saw her as a sort of 247 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 3: warrior fighting to protect the innocent. 248 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 12: Do you say to white South Africans at a certain age, 249 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 12: the Satanists are coming for me and they know what 250 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 12: you mean. 251 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 3: Rhea knew what it meant, and she often won her battles, 252 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 3: saving ex Satanists from the devil's grasp. But the enemy 253 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:51,119 Speaker 3: was still everywhere. 254 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 12: This means there's an evil cultic conspiracy that is capable 255 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 12: of extreme violence and lurks unseen and all sorts of 256 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 12: doors in South Africa. 257 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 3: Ria was determined to keep those doors bolted shut in 258 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 3: the name of God. 259 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 7: Years back, Ria Krunevald, which were bought obviously of the 260 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 7: Krugersdorp murders, came to us for training. 261 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 3: Psychologist Fhavinga was a mentor to Rea. His organization facilitates 262 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 3: training for community leaders. I met with FH at his 263 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 3: practice and sat down with him to learn more. 264 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 7: She went through a course in our training modules, which 265 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 7: is helping potential victims of a cult related trauma. 266 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 3: The influence of Satanism was strong enough to require cult 267 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 3: intervention and recovery programs. After her training, Rhea started a 268 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 3: group she called Overcomers through Christ. Will refer to them 269 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 3: as otc here is Colonel Kobas Yanker again. 270 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 11: They were the group that dealt with Satanists, getting them 271 00:17:58,280 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 11: out of the movement. 272 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,199 Speaker 3: The devil was in fact encircling them, only she was 273 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 3: in disguise. It was Queen Havoc herself, Cecilia Stein. 274 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 6: The day when Celia joined this Overcomers through Christ, this 275 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 6: ministry that Rhea created. Celia came in as she broke 276 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 6: away from Satanism and needs help and needs protection because 277 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 6: the witches wants to kill her and they have to 278 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 6: hide her, and Rhea gave all to Celia. 279 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 3: Everyone who knew Ria speaks to her altruistic nature and 280 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 3: ability to see the good in people despite their past. Unfortunately, 281 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 3: her welcoming spirit and unwavering faith made her vulnerable to 282 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 3: someone like. 283 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 10: Cecilia, religion can be abused to me beul like people 284 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 10: to get whatever from them. 285 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 3: That's journalist Jana Marx. She's well known in South Africa 286 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 3: and wrote the definitive book on this case after being 287 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 3: present for all of the court proceedings. It's called The 288 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 3: Kruger Store of Cult Killings. Inside Cecilia Stein's Reign of Terror. 289 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 3: We sat down with her in her home to discuss 290 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 3: the case. 291 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: It's happening much more than we think, especially in a 292 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: more conservative, more religious country like South Africa. 293 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 3: Whether or not it was Cecilia's original intention to gain power, 294 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 3: we will never know. What we do know is that 295 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 3: she wove an intricate and seductive web that a select 296 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 3: few got seriously tangled in. Here's detective suse canoes again. 297 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 6: Celia just saw the loophole in getting close to Riha, 298 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 6: and she just grabbed it. She took Rhea's sensitive personality 299 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 6: and kind personality for granted. 300 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 3: Ria's mentor breaks down some of her manipulation tactics for us. 301 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 7: Usually, when we talk about Goulds, we use a byte 302 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 7: system bie. 303 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 3: Behavior, information, thoughts, and emotions to elaborate a cult leader 304 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 3: exerts control by in influencing their potential followers. Using this methodology, 305 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 3: the model proposes that these constitute the four components of 306 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 3: mind control. Behavior is usually the first a good way 307 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:11,479 Speaker 3: to test the waters. 308 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 7: When a cult leader starts influencing people, they first start 309 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 7: controlling their behavior. They do something. The cult leader does 310 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 7: something and see how people respond. 311 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 3: Cecilia made fast friends with Rhea, whose whole heart was 312 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 3: focused on Cecilia's salvation and ultimate deliverance from Satan himself. 313 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 11: She was an Excitanist, according to her, that was married 314 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 11: to the devil. She even got a marriage certificate that 315 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 11: she and the devil signed. I don't know exactly where 316 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 11: she made him to sign the contract, but yeah. 317 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 3: That's Detective Ben Boysen think of Chuck Norris with the 318 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 3: tenacity of svu's Elliott Stabler. I mean, this guy lives 319 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 3: to serve, protect and to take down the bad guys. 320 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 3: We'll spend a lot of time with Ben throughout this podcast. 321 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 3: It is in large part his determination that eventually broke 322 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 3: the case, and given the pace of the killings, likely 323 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 3: saved many lives. Detective Susette Canotz says Cecilia's claims of 324 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 3: diabolical origins drew Ria in and soon other members of 325 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 3: the OTC were spellbound. 326 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 5: Two. 327 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 6: She had a witch mother that gives birth to it. 328 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 3: Cecilia told Ria that she had a witch mother who 329 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 3: had been sacrificed by the Satanic Church, leaving Cecilia vulnerable 330 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 3: and alone. She was plagued by Satanic possessions that could 331 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 3: overtake her at any moment. 332 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 11: The devil will come and you will Ripecilia to get 333 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 11: her back into Satanism. 334 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 3: Both women agreed that Ria should hold maternal rights over Cecilia. 335 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 3: She assured Ria that by maintaining this role, she would 336 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 3: gain more favor in the spirit world and pose a 337 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 3: greater threat to the Satanists. Cecilia began calling Ria Mamma. 338 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 6: Celia could never leave krugez or no. A certain perimeter 339 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 6: of her house was then the witch's attack and she 340 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 6: gets six and whatever. 341 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 3: Rea commissioned OTC members to aid her in what became 342 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 3: a twenty four to seven vigil to protect Cecilia from 343 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 3: these supernatural threats. Cecilia also claimed to suffer from dissociative 344 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 3: identity disorder or DID, meaning she had multiple personalities that 345 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 3: she would slip in and out of a result of 346 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 3: some early traumatic experiences, so Cecilia truly could never be 347 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 3: left alone. 348 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 2: Cecilia would become a little girl or Anya three year old, 349 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: and Rio would just play with her. 350 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: They will go to the park and she would lie 351 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 1: in Rio's arm like I don't go with. 352 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 2: You when you go out of a picnic. 353 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 1: They would just really, you know, nurture this little gal. 354 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 3: They would even feed her formula from a bottle when 355 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 3: she was hungry. I know it sounds outlandish to think 356 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 3: about a woman in her fifties feeding this thirty year 357 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 3: old from a baby bottle, but it's true. Ria was 358 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 3: that committed to Cecilia. By two thousand and eight, Ria 359 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 3: deepened her commitment by moving into an apartment down the 360 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 3: street from Cecilia's home at Casana Flats. To protect her 361 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 3: spiritual daughter, Mama Rihea and the other members began to 362 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 3: work in shifts. They took care of all of Cecilia's 363 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 3: earthly needs. This also meant that Cecilia, now subtly and slyly, 364 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 3: began to control their work schedules. She expected certain people 365 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 3: to tend to her at certain times. She also exerted 366 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 3: control over when they ate when they slept, what music 367 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 3: they listened to, and what they watched on TV, including 368 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 3: violent serial killer movies. By twenty ten, after three years 369 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 3: of influence, Cecilia's agenda had all but taken over the group. 370 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 3: The payoff for the OTC members was fulfilling their mission 371 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 3: and saving souls from Satan's grip. 372 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 7: And that's the sad thing. Because Ria gave the platform 373 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 7: for Cecilia to write the information which all her volunteers, 374 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 7: Rhea's volunteers in Overcomers in Christ would follow. 375 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 3: Cecilia convinced Rhea that our congregation was too focused on 376 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 3: believe it or not Jesus that in order to fight 377 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 3: the devil, to help people escape from him, they must 378 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 3: get to know the Prince of darkness. They must study 379 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 3: him and familiarize themselves with his deceitful ways and clever tricks. 380 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 3: And Cecilia she knew the devil intimately, so she was 381 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 3: the only one who could tell them everything they needed 382 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:55,439 Speaker 3: to know to successfully combat this spiritual battle against evil. Together, 383 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 3: Ria and Cecilia set out to write a pamphlet that 384 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 3: laid out just that everything Cecilia knew about Satan from 385 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 3: her past and how to fight him. They called it 386 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 3: Know your Enemy. 387 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 7: That was their manual. That is a perfect platform for 388 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 7: a cult leader. All the volunteers started admiring Cecilia. Cecilia 389 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 7: became the leader. Cecilia became the voice. Cecilia became the knowledge. 390 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 7: Cecilia became the expert. 391 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 3: All the while, Rhea's mentor saw the red flags and 392 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 3: did his best to guide. 393 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 7: Her as it real. Please, we worried about you. You 394 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,479 Speaker 7: are isolating, you don't have mentorship. The only people you 395 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 7: are associating with the people in your group. 396 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 3: One of the classic signs of a group that has 397 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 3: gotten lost inside itself is when the members believe they 398 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 3: have enough moral high ground to reject the ideas of 399 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 3: anyone who questions them. 400 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 7: We couldn't find any neutral ground. I just said no, 401 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 7: But God said, and I'm going to look after this lady. 402 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 7: And God put it on my life. And the only 403 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 7: spirit says I said, real, whoa whoa whoa. 404 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 3: Butria would not heed his words. The OTC's level of 405 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 3: involvement in Cecilia's life was far from ethical in the 406 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 3: Isahawinga and his training organization, so he withdrew her credentials. 407 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 7: The training that we did with you and all your 408 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 7: certificates and everything. We are now canceling that. We are 409 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 7: suspending all that from today and requesting that you will 410 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 7: not in any form associate your name with any of 411 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 7: our affiliates. 412 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 3: Despite her insisting otherwise. Ria had over committed with maternal 413 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 3: rights to Cecilia's myriad of personalities. There was some next 414 00:26:46,440 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 3: level caretaking going on for Rea. After years of playing handman, though, 415 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 3: Rhea did begin to question Cecilia's motives, and by the 416 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 3: fall of twenty eleven, her mentor's warnings echoed in her mind. 417 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 7: I remember my words, I say to Arihea. If you 418 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 7: continue with this, people can lose their lives. You're playing 419 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 7: with life and death principleshit. 420 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 3: And unfortunately Havingo was right. It's twenty eleven and Ria 421 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 3: Grunival's life was falling to pieces a result of dedicating 422 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 3: all of her time to Cecilia Stein. Without official mentorship, 423 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 3: and overcome by her looming doubts, Rhea sought out advice 424 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 3: from her old pastor, Reginald ben Dixon. He pointed out 425 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 3: to her that their focus on Satan and protecting themselves 426 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 3: from evil was so robust that they had forgotten about 427 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 3: living for others and the power of the Lord. Cecilia 428 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 3: could sense Rhea's withdrawal. She became enraged at the thought 429 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 3: that Ria would give up on her, so she started 430 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 3: asserting power however she could. We are about to hear 431 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 3: is a piece of written testimony by Rhea. We tried 432 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 3: to contact her for an interview, but she has since 433 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 3: changed her name and moved far away from Kruger's store, 434 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 3: so we asked an actor to read it for us. 435 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 3: The statement is sparse, with this particular memory she felt 436 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 3: moved to share. 437 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: After she put me at Jews one morning, I fell 438 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: asleep and I woke up ten hours later. She told 439 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: me that an astral spirit came in and put a 440 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: sedative in my Jews. 441 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 3: Cecilia had bruises all over her body. She said that 442 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 3: Satanists had attacked her while Rhea slept. 443 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: From that day on, she knew everything about me, even 444 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: my character flaws. She assured me that the Satanic Church 445 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: had all my information. They knew my every conversation, every move, 446 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: even my thoughts. I was always surrounded by them, and 447 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 1: I couldn't do anything without them knowing. I believed her. 448 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 3: It was later revealed in court that while Ria was sleeping, 449 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 3: Cecilia had in fact gone through Rhea's phone and computer, 450 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 3: seeking information she could later use to control her. After 451 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 3: this incident, Ria's suspicion of Cecilia's motives only grew, and 452 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 3: so came the great divide. 453 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 7: As we see, you're going to start forming camps within 454 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 7: overcomers in Christ and people need to start making decisions, 455 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 7: and you need to now choose you're going to be 456 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 7: for or against. 457 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 3: Many of the members of OTC remained devoted to Rhea, 458 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 3: some followed Cecilia, and still others were caught in the middle, 459 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 3: unsure how to navigate this awkward separation. Cecilia still demanded 460 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 3: round the clock care, and members would continue to rotate 461 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 3: to be with her, including one OTC member, Natasha Berger, 462 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 3: who will meet again later. A select few, however, swore 463 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 3: off both Rhea and Cecilia, a decision that may very 464 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 3: well have saved their lives. Cecilia managed to pull five 465 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 3: loyal members into her camp. They called themselves Electus perdeis 466 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 3: Latin for Chosen by God, and the people in this group, 467 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 3: which we refer to as EPD, would eventually become known 468 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 3: as the Krueger's stor of killers. 469 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 8: Cecilia Stein had this group around which involved Mikhaela Valentin, 470 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 8: Zach Valentin, Marindo Stein, and Turquits Leroux and Marcel. They 471 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 8: actually could do you need meeting in private at Cicilo's house. 472 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 3: That's Captain Johann van Vick, a critical player in the 473 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 3: murder investigations. He's a tall, stately man, well dressed in 474 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 3: a sharp suit. He's soft spoken and seemed a little 475 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 3: nervous when we sat down with him. Keep in mind, 476 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 3: this is a winding spiral stairs kind of case with 477 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 3: many phases of escalation. It became, for obvious reasons, a 478 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 3: national issue and for other reasons that you'll come to know. 479 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 3: There were several stages of investigation. A variety of professionals 480 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 3: were brought in to lend their insight, including child psychologists, 481 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 3: an advocate, Roselyind. 482 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 5: McNabb, Marcel, her mother, brother, Zach Valentini. Is what they 483 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 5: decided to side with Cecilia, and then they decided to 484 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 5: call themselves Electus pideis just chosen about God. 485 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 3: The members of Electus Perdeis consisted of Merinda Stein, no 486 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 3: relation to Secilia, and her two children, LaRue and Marcel 487 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 3: along with married couple Zach and Michaeleb Valentine. Marcel Stein 488 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 3: was only ten years old and her brother LaRue was 489 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 3: just twelve when their mother folded their family into Electus 490 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 3: per DAAs. Cecilia ran Electus per DAAs like a real ministry. 491 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 3: Members had to make their regular contributions to finance the 492 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 3: group's activities. She adopted a symbolic new identity and insisted 493 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 3: her tiny flock call her by her first initial see. 494 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 3: She pulled from the Byte method playbook, declaring OTC the 495 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 3: enemy and making herself the center of their universe. Cecilia 496 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 3: now had an army of her own, and Rhea was 497 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 3: trying hard to distance herself to leave the battlefield altogether. 498 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 6: Rea told Celia, listen, I don't want to have anything 499 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 6: to do with you anymore. And now Celia sees it 500 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 6: as being rejected. Now she's not happy with that, and 501 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 6: she needs revenge. 502 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 3: Cecilia was furious that Ria deserted her. How could her 503 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 3: own mother do this to her? She would have to pay. 504 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 3: Cecilia told Ria vi Attacks that she had a meeting 505 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 3: with Satan and he had given her a message for 506 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 3: Rhea playtime is over. This is war. 507 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 6: Just before the murder started, there was car bombings happening 508 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 6: to scare Ria. 509 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 8: Petrol bombs were used to intimidate people attending these meetings. 510 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 3: This season on Queen Havoc and her Murder Cult that. 511 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 6: She kills Ria. Ria Khan returned to her, but she 512 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 6: was telling people the Bible say she must go and killed, 513 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 6: But actually she was taking revenge the beating. 514 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,719 Speaker 11: They bought, the wall and the roof was full of blood. 515 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 4: It could have been me and you. 516 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: They were doing regular jobs, showing up her appointment and 517 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: they were killed. 518 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 10: Every time you think you understand what's happening, you realize 519 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 10: that you're. 520 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 3: Queen Havoc and Her Murder Cult is a production of 521 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 3: Schooly Humans and iHeart Podcasts. Queen Havoc is hosted and 522 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 3: created by me Kurt Kupachick, produced and written by Jennifer Tacchini, 523 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 3: Julia Chriscau, and Kirk Kupachick. Lead producer is Julia Chriskau. 524 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,320 Speaker 3: Story editor is Saren Burnett. Senior producer is Amelia Brock. 525 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 3: Production manager is Daisy Church. Original music composed by Claire Campbell, editing, 526 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:39,359 Speaker 3: sound design and scoring by Jesse Niswanger. Associated producers are 527 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,320 Speaker 3: DaShan Moodley and Jamaine Kriher. Additional producing by Ben Melman, 528 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 3: fact checking by Dennis Webster. Recording engineers are Graham Gibson, 529 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 3: Clay Hillenberg and Josh hook. Ria Grunovald's testimony is read 530 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 3: by Madeline Page. Executive producers are Ginia Prescott, L. C. Crowley, 531 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 3: Brandon Barr, Jennifer Tukeiny and Kurt Kupachak. We want to 532 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 3: thank all of those who so generously welcomed us in 533 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 3: South Africa and shared their stories. We're incredibly grateful to 534 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 3: you all. We also want to acknowledge how traumatic these 535 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 3: events are for the victims and their families. Please respect 536 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 3: their privacy. If you or someone you know has been 537 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 3: affected by cold behaviors, there are resources available, including Voices 538 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 3: for Dignity at Christine Murray dot com