WEBVTT - Why the TV boom makes life harder, not easier, for independent producers 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:10.160 Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's podcast featuring conversations with industry 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:14.200 leaders about the business of entertainment. I'm Cynthia Littleton, Managing 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:17.439 editor of Television for Variety, and today my guest in 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:21.400 New York as Assembly Entertainment head, Christina Wayne. Wayne has 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.600 been an independent producer for nearly a decade. She first 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:27.240 made her mark during her years as a development executive 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:30.880 at a MC. There, she championed two shows that changed 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:35.800 the face of television, Madmen and Breaking Bath. In our conversation, 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.560 Wayne goes deep into the nitty gritty of deal making 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:41.920 in the current landscape. She's candid about how hard it's 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:44.360 become for producers to make a good living despite the 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.559 boom times in TV, and she also talks about how 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:51.599 her adventures inspired the launch of her television school dot 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:59.440 com subscription venture. Christina Wayne, CEO of Assembly Entertainment, Welcome 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.320 to Strictly Business. Thanks so much for having me, Thanks 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:04.720 for coming buy on one of the first crisp fall 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:06.920 days here in New York City. It's a beautiful day. 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.759 It's a good day to talk about the television business. Um, Christina, 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:13.680 you have been You've had a range of experience from 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:16.560 being on the programming side and the buying side at 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.600 a MC where you helped bring to life a couple 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:23.119 of little shows called Madman and Breaking Dad, and more 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:25.480 recently the last bunch of years, you have been an 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:29.640 independent producer, putting together shows and using you know, interesting 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:33.479 different financial models to make your programming work. And right 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:36.520 now Assembly Entertainment you have a pod deal with I 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:40.040 t V America, so you're part of that global village 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:43.319 of programming that's coming and being financed and coming from 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:48.560 all sides. UM, let's talk about the job of a 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:52.800 producer and how much your role as a packager and 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:56.240 developer has changed in just a few years as we've 0:01:56.240 --> 0:02:01.000 seen the explosion of demand for original content. Well, definitely changed. 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:05.080 I performed my company Assembly Entertainment about five years ago, 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:08.280 a little over five years ago, and when I first 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:12.000 started the first two years, my job was similar to 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:14.320 the development process that I had done when I was 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:17.360 UM doing scripted at AMC or even when I was 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:22.320 at an international studio Cineflix. UM when I was doing 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:26.520 scripted there, you start with an idea, you go to writers, 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:30.760 you develop, you package the show together, but really all 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:32.920 you needed at that time was a great idea with 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:36.079 a really good writer, a great script, and you went 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:40.480 to the market and I saw that there were new 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:43.840 buyers back five years ago coming not as much as 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:46.280 there are now. The platforms did not exist. There was 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:49.880 no Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, but a lot of the basic 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:54.240 cable channels, and even places like HBO started pushing for 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:59.040 scripted programming at their sister UM channel, Cinemax things like that. 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:02.600 People started audening out their channels in terms of growing 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:05.240 their scripted So all of a sudden, a bunch of 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:07.919 new buyers came to the market and we would take 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:10.720 stuff out, and over the first two years of having 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.120 my company, we sold pretty much everything we took to 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:18.160 the market. There were about i'd say thirteen fourteen shows 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.040 that we took out, and they all went into development. 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:23.959 Not all of them got made, but um one or 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:27.080 two of them got made, which is kind of the ratio. 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:29.840 You have one out of ten usually is your ratio 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:33.200 of what you're hoping for the last two years of 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:36.600 being a producer. Now, with all the platforms, there is 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.920 such a huge demand for content that one would assume 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.600 that being a producer would make my life much easier 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:45.840 it's actually made it more difficult. What has happened is 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:49.720 that TV is such an incredible medium now, it is 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.160 so high level the programming that's being made. You have 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:59.400 every a list showrunner, actor, director coming with their passion project. 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.040 I often find myself waiting to take out a show 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:06.800 to the buyers and you have Germo del Toro sitting 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:09.360 in the waiting room, you have George Clooney, you have 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:13.680 every single top level person who's you know, Germo had 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.880 just won an Academy Award, and you're sitting there going, oh, yeah, 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:20.280 my little great show, Um, what do we have? So 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:23.440 it definitely has become more difficult. And I have noticed 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:27.400 that unless you package your show to the nth degree, 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.240 it does not sell. You're talking about soup to nuts 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:36.200 with writers, showrunner, star director, the whole. You don't necessarily 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:38.359 need a line producer because they can always hire that, 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.080 because that's not going to be You need somebody competent, 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.039 but they're not going to look at that as the 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:47.599 sort of bells and whistles of must make TV. And 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:50.719 so right now the game is straight to series orders 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.760 with a list talent. And you know you see that 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:56.359 with Reese Witherspoon's company. You see that with all of 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.560 these packages now that are going out, um, and so 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:03.360 I I have now moved from being focused solely on 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:08.040 development to also being a packager, which really was never 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:11.200 that was always an agent's job. And so it has 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:16.280 really sort of taken over what I do. And UM, 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:18.920 I do it. And thankfully I've been in the business 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.599 long enough that it's not impossible, but it certainly is 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:24.720 not what I came to the business to do. So 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:27.960 it's quite different than when I started. Does it affect 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:30.720 um that I would imagine that the need to have 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:34.599 all those elements assembled at the at the very get go, 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:37.120 would you say? Even sometimes before a script is written, 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:41.240 usually we package stuff that is written. It's very hard 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:43.440 to bring talent to a piece of material that's just 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:45.719 a pitch. So if we're going out with a pitch, 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.800 we have to have a showrunner level writer be bringing 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:53.520 it out and so who commissions that script? Is that 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:57.160 pressure on you to pay for that initial initial script 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:00.000 before you even set it up. Sometimes I can give 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:01.520 be the example of our show that we have at 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.800 ABC right now called Mercury thirteen. So Jessica Chastain brought 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:07.920 me an idea. That was a passion project for her, 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:10.560 and it's based on a true story, a story I 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:14.279 did not know. It's about thirteen female pilots from the 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.599 early nineteen sixties that were recruited by a program that 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:22.279 was set up UM by NASA, and it was to 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:25.320 train the women to be the first female astronauts to 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:28.680 go into space. So it was a story I didn't know, 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.000 a story about. UM, these very strong women and the 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:35.400 obstacles they faced in the early sixties in that world. 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:38.880 So we went out and looked at a bunch of 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:41.680 different writers. We wound up UM. I had worked with 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:45.000 Todd coomber Nikki, who is the screenwriter who wrote Sully. 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:46.760 He he and I had sold a show to T 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:49.719 and T a few years before that. UM, you know, 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.159 he was just coming off of Sully. He was UH 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.919 an incredibly hot writer at the time, and we knew 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.080 that if we wanted to go to the market, we 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:00.520 needed to write the script. So I t be under 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.360 my deal. UM had Todd write the script and they 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:05.520 paid for the script, and then we took that to 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:10.440 the market as a package with the script already written. UM. 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:12.960 Jessica and I and Todd went all over to all 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:16.080 the buyers and took it around town and Channing DUNGEI 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:19.119 bought it at ABC. So that really shows the level 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:22.880 in which you need right now, which is highly competitive. 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:27.160 But you had Jessica Chastain, which is incredible and she's 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:32.160 a phenomenal producer. Do you think, UM, do you think 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:34.080 that the I know it's probably hard to answer, but 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:35.920 do you think that the one intent you talked about, 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.000 the one intent ratio of development to actually getting things made? 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:41.240 Do you is your sense that that's going to go 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.840 up even even with the challenge of getting things placed. 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:49.360 It still feels to me like the ratio that's going 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:51.520 on right now. There is a bit of with new 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:55.440 platforms coming to the table um. When Suzanne Daniels took 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:59.840 over at YouTube Premium, Uh, she reached out to me 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:04.400 and because when a when a new platform comes to 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:06.880 the market, a lot of people who are experienced in 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:11.160 the business don't necessarily a no. These new platforms have 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.080 opened because it takes a little while to get the 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:15.600 buzz out. There's now you know, Facebook, there's a bunch 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:19.680 of new places um, and they want to have experienced 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.360 people come to them with shows it's not necessarily at 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:25.040 the forefront of your mind when you're making your list 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.880 of places if someplace has literally just started. So this 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:30.600 was two years ago when Suzanne reached out to me 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:33.400 and UM we did a deal in which I would 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.520 bring her three projects and she would green light one 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:40.240 to pilot and under a put pilot deal. So that 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:43.720 UM made it a little bit different and a little 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:48.280 bit um more of a path to production. So I 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.600 saw that as a positive in terms of that these 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:55.480 places need quality content and they're not necessarily on their 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.240 first swings going to take major risks with people that 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.880 they don't trust. So but you know, not every place 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:05.559 is banging down your door to do that, So they 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:07.840 are looking at the tried and true. That's why you 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:10.000 know people like Ryan Murphy and Shawn to Rhymes get 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:12.480 these massive deals because Netflix just wants to know their 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:15.040 pipeline is going to be filled with They know what 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:17.960 they're getting from those people, and they know people. You know, 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.720 there's nobody more valuable than somebody like a like an 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:22.760 uber shore runner that can get a ship. You know, 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.240 they know, for better for worse, they can get that 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.320 show on its feet exactly. UM and the kind of 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:30.400 deal that you talked about, that you sketched out with 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:33.600 that you set out with Suzanne. Those kinds of deals 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:36.520 are probably few and far between at a traditional linear 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:39.680 network at this moment. Probably, I guess it depends on 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.480 the level of producers show runner. It's the one time 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:44.480 it's happened to me. I'm very thankful for it. That's 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.920 our new show that we're now going into production on 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:51.040 right now for YouTube Premium with USA reback. It's called 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:53.880 It's a Man's World, and we'll be shooting this December. 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:58.400 So you know, to me, that's when somebody like that, 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:00.640 you've known for a long time, you've had a relationship, 0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:04.199 they understand the work that you do, understands and believes 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:06.600 that you can deliver a quality product. That's sort of 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:09.440 the best place to be as a producer. And this 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:11.760 you said you set this deal about two years ago. 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:13.720 Did it take that long to find the right piece 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.839 of material? We under the deal had to bring them 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:20.160 three projects. So over the past two years we brought 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:25.040 them three shows. One was a pitch, One was a 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:27.520 script that was already written, a spec script that I 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:31.599 had optioned a while before. One was actually it's a 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:34.040 Man's World was actually a script we had previously sold 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:35.880 to Bravo as a one hour and it was in 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:38.960 turn around. So they did deals for all three of 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:42.800 those and then gave notes and the one that was 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:44.840 a pitch, the writers had to write the script. The 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:47.360 other two we had to turn It's a Man's World 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.120 from an hour into a half hour, and then UM, 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.760 the other one they had the writer do some extensive 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:55.120 rewrite sonics that was an hour as well, and so 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.480 it took about a year and a half and so 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:01.000 about six months ago they made the decision to pick 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:03.600 the one that we wanted. Unfortunately, one of the writers 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:05.960 of one of those projects passed away at that time, 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:11.000 so it limited UM, which is very sad. He was 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.440 a very lovely man who was the UM, Charlie Bull, 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.640 and so it was sort of this very surprising tragic thing. 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.439 So that limited the decision to two projects rather than one, 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:26.240 I mean, rather than three. Right during that time, UM, 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:28.280 when you have when you know, when you're juggling a 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:30.560 pitch and you're juggling you know, an outline, and then 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:33.959 you have something you know that with Teresa rebeca very 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:37.320 well known, a brand named writer and playwright, How is 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:40.320 it for your company as on a financial basis? Is 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:45.360 it is it? Um? Is it a struggle to keep 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:47.679 those that many things juggling in the air for a 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.680 for an extended period? You know, we're what you just 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:54.440 described as well outside of the traditional chaos of of 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:58.400 a traditional broadcast pilot season. Well, the nice thing about 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:01.160 platform and cable buyers is that they don't adhere to 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.520 a calendar, right, so you can really start and stop 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.120 any time of the year. Um. What I have found 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:10.840 though with our show at ABC, it's not really adhering 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:13.600 to any calendar. Also, maybe it's because of the Disney 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.240 Fox merger. There seems to be a lot of um 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:18.560 waiting around to see what's going to happen when that closes. 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:22.760 There's a lot going on there. Yeah, So um, I 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.920 actually like the idea of not having a schedule. I 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.400 think it just allows the material to get to the 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.920 place where it needs to be and then you move forward, 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:33.920 which gives you the time to really nurture a project, 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:36.560 which I like. Is there a downside? Though? We've we've 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.960 often heard from writers and creatives that that kind of 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:42.640 the lack of a schedule can be challenging because they 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:44.240 don't know if something is going to get going. They 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:47.080 don't know. Sometimes their ability to get other work in 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.520 the in the inter room can be can be constricted. 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.040 Although I know those those rules are changing a little bit. 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.160 Um Well, if you look at the timeline of what 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.440 happened with I'm Dying up here, that was a very 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.560 long time. That was a Showtime series that produced for 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:04.160 two seasons, correct, and so we went in and pitched that. 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:06.680 I can't even remember what year it was, it must 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:10.280 have been that we went around and watched that and 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:13.280 Showtime bought it as a pitch. It was then a 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:17.079 year process of Dave Flabatt, the showrunner, writing the pilot script. 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.280 We probably had a year after the pilot's script was 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:23.920 turned in while we waited around for Showtime to make 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:26.520 a decision. I think it was not for lack of 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.760 Showtime's enthusiasm. I think it was literally them looking at 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.079 their shows and seeing when they had an opening in 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.200 their schedule for a new show. There were a couple 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.400 shows that were ending that they were waiting for their 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:38.800 seasons to be done, and they were really looking at 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:40.720 other material that was coming in at the same time. 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:45.080 So that was quite a long time for the cable schedule. 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:48.280 Usually things happen, they usually tell you within six months 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.160 of a script being turned in, but this that was 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:56.480 a really long time. UM. Talking back to it's a 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:59.080 man's world, can you talk about I know you can't 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.079 talk dollars and cents, but can you talk about the 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.440 economics of doing a YouTube pilot? Is it comparable to 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:08.160 a basic cable or premium cable type of a deal? 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:11.200 It is. It's a half hours and it's the first 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:12.880 half hour I've ever made. I'm used to being in 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:16.679 the world of hours, which you know, have grown. The budgets, 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.400 I would say, from when we first did the pilot 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.320 for mad Men UM, which was in a little bit 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.560 over three million dollars. You're looking now at pilots that 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.960 are being made, you know, in the hour round eight 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:33.120 nine million dollars for a pilot. So they're very expensive 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:34.800 right now, not all of them are. Some of them 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:36.840 are more like five million. But they have gone up 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:39.800 in the half hour space. I think YouTube premium is 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:44.000 squarely in the half hour budget range. They actually, during 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:46.800 the term of our deal raised the level. When we 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:49.880 first did the deal, they went up slightly and said, 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.600 you know, we see how competitive the marketplace is now 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:57.120 to cast to get quality directors. And they've actually brought 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:01.520 up the budget where this week discussing exactly what our 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.720 budget and schedule are, so um, we should know by 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:07.200 nets week and be able to get going because of that, 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:10.160 because the realities are. It's this is the other challenge. 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.440 With so much programming being made, no one is available. 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:18.760 So you look at the landscape creative talent wise correct, 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.200 so you're looking at who's out there. There's a ton 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:25.080 of great directors out there working right now, and thankfully 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:29.600 there are phenomenal female directors now being given opportunities that weren't. 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:32.560 There's a lot of diverse talent out there, but they 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:37.000 are busy. It is so hard right now to say, okay, 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:39.560 I have a pilot shooting in three months from now 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:42.760 at least when we got green light back in August, 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:45.520 and find somebody that can actually do it for the 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:49.000 time you're looking at. So you can't say, oh, I 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:51.040 want you to do this for five dollars. You have 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:53.720 to entice people to be able to fit it in 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:57.000 their schedule because they have so many options right and 0:15:57.120 --> 0:15:59.320 in this process, I would imagine there's a lot of 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:04.360 pleading with talent agents to to to arrange people's schedules. 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:07.840 Would you say the agencies have become in in arranging 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.880 that kind of that kind of base level staffing of 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:13.200 a show that they would you say that they've become 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:17.640 more important for the sought after talent beyond the beyond 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.120 the stars, I'm talking about even just the basics of 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:24.640 a crew, or basically when you are green light to production, 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:28.280 pretty much all of the agencies and management companies are 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.160 there and helpful and will really vet your lists of 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:36.200 who's available, who's not. And I've seen that there for 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:39.960 the most part, very helpful. It's really more when you're 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:42.120 trying to package something that you're taking to the market 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.760 that because there's so much work, nobody's really interested anymore 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.000 in putting their talent or their director with a project 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:52.480 that hasn't sold yet. So I have found that is 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.080 if you go to the agencies for that, it's much 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:57.560 more difficult. They're happy to have you meet with the 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.760 young playwright that wants to get into TV, who really 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:04.000 could be the most talented up and coming writer. It 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:07.160 could be the next Bo williman Um who I met 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.320 when he was still a Juilliard and I gave him 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:11.639 his first writing job when I was at AMC. He 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:17.200 came in with a pitch um and started his TV career. UM. 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:19.919 So he didn't go to pilot. It didn't. It was 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:24.240 actually sort of a a precursor to Underground. It was 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:27.080 set on a plant, southern plantation, and it dealt with 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:29.199 the lives of the people that lived on the plantation. 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.680 And um, at that particular moment in time, I don't 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:36.600 think it was what AMC was doing right. Um. But 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.080 you know, I'm always open and eager to meet with 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:43.080 young talent, with new directors and and break people because 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:45.520 you know, I'm just looking for people that have great 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:48.200 voices and are saying something unique and different that hasn't 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:52.639 been said before. Um. But in terms of attaching people 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:57.840 to things, I find the agencies are less willing to 0:17:57.880 --> 0:17:59.600 do that when they know that there's so much work 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:02.600 out there, right, you don't want to lock somebody up 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:07.080 for for too long. UM. Again, working with YouTube, with 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:09.560 you know, a very newish platform, even in the world 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:12.280 of a lot of new platforms, does it concern you 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:14.119 or the or the folks that you're working with? It 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.560 I TV America that you know, do you have to 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.040 have a discussion about what is the potential back end 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:23.080 here before you commit to something like that. All of 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:27.880 these deals have really shifted. UM. I have found as 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:32.280 a producer you never see back end, regardless it's a myth. 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:35.080 I think it's a myth. UM. I think even when 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.359 a show is profitable for a producer. I will not 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.960 name the show, but there is a very successful show, 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:47.199 UM that I knew intimately the inner workings of, and 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:50.199 I knew it was profitable, and the producer and the 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:53.800 show runner at the end of however many seasons the 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.199 show had run, we're telling me that the studio was 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.440 telling them that the show was still in the red 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.199 and if you just looked at the show, you would go, 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:06.120 there's no way that that's possible. And they actually had 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:10.159 to sue the studio for their back end. So it 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.080 is incredibly difficult to get back end on a show. 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:16.280 So a lot of these new platforms like Netflix, they 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:19.400 buy you out and they give you your deal upfront. 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:21.239 So whether your show is going to be Game of 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:24.399 Thrones or whether it's something that is you know, a 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:26.719 flash in the pan and going away after the first season, 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:30.040 they estimate what they think the potential could be and 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:32.359 they give that to your up front. And as a producer, 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:37.240 I think just in terms of business, it's probably makes 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:40.680 more sense to do a model like that, because even 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:43.359 when you have one of the most successful shows on TV, 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:45.360 you're still going to have to fight for that back 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:48.000 end and probably won't get the reality of what it's 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:53.400 really worth. Wow, And again, how do you I'm curious 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:57.480 how how does a YouTube or Netflix estimate what that 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:00.760 back end like, I have no idea. You would have 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:04.359 to ask that super secret mathematical formulas. I just this 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:06.720 is all fascinating because it is all changing so much, 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:08.600 it is, and to try and keep up with it. 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.679 You know, when you have I have um an exclusive 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:15.000 overhead deal at I TV Studios America, so my deals 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:20.200 are pre negotiated. It doesn't matter what platform or channel 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.200 I sell to. My deal is the same because it's 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:26.199 with I t V for all of these shows. So 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:28.680 it's really about I t V than negotiating the deal 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.560 with that particular buyer. It doesn't really affect me because 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.399 it's already sentenced one what I get interesting and so 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:38.240 that's obviously that is one of the advantages of aligning 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:40.600 with an I t V something, a company with some 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:44.159 real heft and real um, you know, clout in the 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:46.920 marketplace and a lot of resources that they can bring 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:49.320 to bear. And and we've all been seeing a lot 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:53.240 more kind of you know, cross border productions, seeing a 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.240 lot of British and US co productions. I know you've done, 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.040 You've done several over the years. It would seem like 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:01.800 that that is a that that would be a big 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:04.679 benefit to producer, to a producer, to have somebody like 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:08.160 that vacue. But do you ever does that the fact 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:10.240 that your deal is already pre negotiated, is that ever 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:13.680 an issue in terms of setting something up. It hasn't 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.680 been an issue in terms of actually doing the deal. Um, 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:21.159 when we sell something, what is becoming more and more 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:24.800 apparent is that every buyer wants to own their content. Yeah. 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:27.920 So originally when we sold I'm Dying up Here, I 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:31.879 was running Cineflix Studios, and it became very clear that 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:36.040 Showtime wanted to own the show, and so Showtime in 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:40.000