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Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's podcast featuring conversations with industry

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Speaker 1: leaders about the business of entertainment. I'm Cynthia Littleton, Managing

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Speaker 1: editor of Television for Variety, and today my guest in

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Speaker 1: New York as Assembly Entertainment head, Christina Wayne. Wayne has

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Speaker 1: been an independent producer for nearly a decade. She first

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Speaker 1: made her mark during her years as a development executive

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Speaker 1: at a MC. There, she championed two shows that changed

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Speaker 1: the face of television, Madmen and Breaking Bath. In our conversation,

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Speaker 1: Wayne goes deep into the nitty gritty of deal making

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Speaker 1: in the current landscape. She's candid about how hard it's

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Speaker 1: become for producers to make a good living despite the

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Speaker 1: boom times in TV, and she also talks about how

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Speaker 1: her adventures inspired the launch of her television school dot

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Speaker 1: com subscription venture. Christina Wayne, CEO of Assembly Entertainment, Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Strictly Business. Thanks so much for having me, Thanks

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Speaker 1: for coming buy on one of the first crisp fall

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Speaker 1: days here in New York City. It's a beautiful day.

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Speaker 1: It's a good day to talk about the television business. Um, Christina,

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Speaker 1: you have been You've had a range of experience from

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Speaker 1: being on the programming side and the buying side at

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Speaker 1: a MC where you helped bring to life a couple

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Speaker 1: of little shows called Madman and Breaking Dad, and more

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Speaker 1: recently the last bunch of years, you have been an

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Speaker 1: independent producer, putting together shows and using you know, interesting

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Speaker 1: different financial models to make your programming work. And right

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Speaker 1: now Assembly Entertainment you have a pod deal with I

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Speaker 1: t V America, so you're part of that global village

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Speaker 1: of programming that's coming and being financed and coming from

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Speaker 1: all sides. UM, let's talk about the job of a

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Speaker 1: producer and how much your role as a packager and

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Speaker 1: developer has changed in just a few years as we've

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Speaker 1: seen the explosion of demand for original content. Well, definitely changed.

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Speaker 1: I performed my company Assembly Entertainment about five years ago,

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Speaker 1: a little over five years ago, and when I first

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Speaker 1: started the first two years, my job was similar to

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Speaker 1: the development process that I had done when I was

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Speaker 1: UM doing scripted at AMC or even when I was

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Speaker 1: at an international studio Cineflix. UM when I was doing

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Speaker 1: scripted there, you start with an idea, you go to writers,

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Speaker 1: you develop, you package the show together, but really all

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Speaker 1: you needed at that time was a great idea with

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Speaker 1: a really good writer, a great script, and you went

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Speaker 1: to the market and I saw that there were new

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Speaker 1: buyers back five years ago coming not as much as

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Speaker 1: there are now. The platforms did not exist. There was

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Speaker 1: no Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, but a lot of the basic

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Speaker 1: cable channels, and even places like HBO started pushing for

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Speaker 1: scripted programming at their sister UM channel, Cinemax things like that.

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Speaker 1: People started audening out their channels in terms of growing

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Speaker 1: their scripted So all of a sudden, a bunch of

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Speaker 1: new buyers came to the market and we would take

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Speaker 1: stuff out, and over the first two years of having

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Speaker 1: my company, we sold pretty much everything we took to

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Speaker 1: the market. There were about i'd say thirteen fourteen shows

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Speaker 1: that we took out, and they all went into development.

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Speaker 1: Not all of them got made, but um one or

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Speaker 1: two of them got made, which is kind of the ratio.

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Speaker 1: You have one out of ten usually is your ratio

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Speaker 1: of what you're hoping for the last two years of

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Speaker 1: being a producer. Now, with all the platforms, there is

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Speaker 1: such a huge demand for content that one would assume

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Speaker 1: that being a producer would make my life much easier

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Speaker 1: it's actually made it more difficult. What has happened is

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Speaker 1: that TV is such an incredible medium now, it is

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Speaker 1: so high level the programming that's being made. You have

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Speaker 1: every a list showrunner, actor, director coming with their passion project.

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Speaker 1: I often find myself waiting to take out a show

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Speaker 1: to the buyers and you have Germo del Toro sitting

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Speaker 1: in the waiting room, you have George Clooney, you have

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Speaker 1: every single top level person who's you know, Germo had

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Speaker 1: just won an Academy Award, and you're sitting there going, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: my little great show, Um, what do we have? So

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Speaker 1: it definitely has become more difficult. And I have noticed

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Speaker 1: that unless you package your show to the nth degree,

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Speaker 1: it does not sell. You're talking about soup to nuts

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Speaker 1: with writers, showrunner, star director, the whole. You don't necessarily

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Speaker 1: need a line producer because they can always hire that,

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Speaker 1: because that's not going to be You need somebody competent,

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Speaker 1: but they're not going to look at that as the

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Speaker 1: sort of bells and whistles of must make TV. And

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Speaker 1: so right now the game is straight to series orders

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Speaker 1: with a list talent. And you know you see that

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Speaker 1: with Reese Witherspoon's company. You see that with all of

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Speaker 1: these packages now that are going out, um, and so

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Speaker 1: I I have now moved from being focused solely on

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Speaker 1: development to also being a packager, which really was never

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Speaker 1: that was always an agent's job. And so it has

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Speaker 1: really sort of taken over what I do. And UM,

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Speaker 1: I do it. And thankfully I've been in the business

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Speaker 1: long enough that it's not impossible, but it certainly is

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Speaker 1: not what I came to the business to do. So

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Speaker 1: it's quite different than when I started. Does it affect

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Speaker 1: um that I would imagine that the need to have

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Speaker 1: all those elements assembled at the at the very get go,

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Speaker 1: would you say? Even sometimes before a script is written,

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Speaker 1: usually we package stuff that is written. It's very hard

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Speaker 1: to bring talent to a piece of material that's just

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Speaker 1: a pitch. So if we're going out with a pitch,

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Speaker 1: we have to have a showrunner level writer be bringing

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Speaker 1: it out and so who commissions that script? Is that

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Speaker 1: pressure on you to pay for that initial initial script

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Speaker 1: before you even set it up. Sometimes I can give

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Speaker 1: be the example of our show that we have at

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Speaker 1: ABC right now called Mercury thirteen. So Jessica Chastain brought

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Speaker 1: me an idea. That was a passion project for her,

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Speaker 1: and it's based on a true story, a story I

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Speaker 1: did not know. It's about thirteen female pilots from the

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Speaker 1: early nineteen sixties that were recruited by a program that

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Speaker 1: was set up UM by NASA, and it was to

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Speaker 1: train the women to be the first female astronauts to

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Speaker 1: go into space. So it was a story I didn't know,

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Speaker 1: a story about. UM, these very strong women and the

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Speaker 1: obstacles they faced in the early sixties in that world.

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Speaker 1: So we went out and looked at a bunch of

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Speaker 1: different writers. We wound up UM. I had worked with

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Speaker 1: Todd coomber Nikki, who is the screenwriter who wrote Sully.

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Speaker 1: He he and I had sold a show to T

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Speaker 1: and T a few years before that. UM, you know,

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Speaker 1: he was just coming off of Sully. He was UH

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Speaker 1: an incredibly hot writer at the time, and we knew

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Speaker 1: that if we wanted to go to the market, we

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Speaker 1: needed to write the script. So I t be under

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Speaker 1: my deal. UM had Todd write the script and they

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Speaker 1: paid for the script, and then we took that to

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Speaker 1: the market as a package with the script already written. UM.

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Speaker 1: Jessica and I and Todd went all over to all

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Speaker 1: the buyers and took it around town and Channing DUNGEI

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Speaker 1: bought it at ABC. So that really shows the level

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Speaker 1: in which you need right now, which is highly competitive.

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Speaker 1: But you had Jessica Chastain, which is incredible and she's

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Speaker 1: a phenomenal producer. Do you think, UM, do you think

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Speaker 1: that the I know it's probably hard to answer, but

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Speaker 1: do you think that the one intent you talked about,

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Speaker 1: the one intent ratio of development to actually getting things made?

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Speaker 1: Do you is your sense that that's going to go

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Speaker 1: up even even with the challenge of getting things placed.

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Speaker 1: It still feels to me like the ratio that's going

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Speaker 1: on right now. There is a bit of with new

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Speaker 1: platforms coming to the table um. When Suzanne Daniels took

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Speaker 1: over at YouTube Premium, Uh, she reached out to me

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Speaker 1: and because when a when a new platform comes to

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Speaker 1: the market, a lot of people who are experienced in

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Speaker 1: the business don't necessarily a no. These new platforms have

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Speaker 1: opened because it takes a little while to get the

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Speaker 1: buzz out. There's now you know, Facebook, there's a bunch

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Speaker 1: of new places um, and they want to have experienced

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Speaker 1: people come to them with shows it's not necessarily at

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Speaker 1: the forefront of your mind when you're making your list

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Speaker 1: of places if someplace has literally just started. So this

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Speaker 1: was two years ago when Suzanne reached out to me

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Speaker 1: and UM we did a deal in which I would

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Speaker 1: bring her three projects and she would green light one

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Speaker 1: to pilot and under a put pilot deal. So that

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Speaker 1: UM made it a little bit different and a little

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Speaker 1: bit um more of a path to production. So I

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Speaker 1: saw that as a positive in terms of that these

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Speaker 1: places need quality content and they're not necessarily on their

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Speaker 1: first swings going to take major risks with people that

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Speaker 1: they don't trust. So but you know, not every place

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Speaker 1: is banging down your door to do that, So they

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Speaker 1: are looking at the tried and true. That's why you

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Speaker 1: know people like Ryan Murphy and Shawn to Rhymes get

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Speaker 1: these massive deals because Netflix just wants to know their

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Speaker 1: pipeline is going to be filled with They know what

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Speaker 1: they're getting from those people, and they know people. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's nobody more valuable than somebody like a like an

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Speaker 1: uber shore runner that can get a ship. You know,

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Speaker 1: they know, for better for worse, they can get that

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Speaker 1: show on its feet exactly. UM and the kind of

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Speaker 1: deal that you talked about, that you sketched out with

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Speaker 1: that you set out with Suzanne. Those kinds of deals

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Speaker 1: are probably few and far between at a traditional linear

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Speaker 1: network at this moment. Probably, I guess it depends on

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Speaker 1: the level of producers show runner. It's the one time

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Speaker 1: it's happened to me. I'm very thankful for it. That's

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Speaker 1: our new show that we're now going into production on

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Speaker 1: right now for YouTube Premium with USA reback. It's called

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Speaker 1: It's a Man's World, and we'll be shooting this December.

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Speaker 1: So you know, to me, that's when somebody like that,

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Speaker 1: you've known for a long time, you've had a relationship,

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Speaker 1: they understand the work that you do, understands and believes

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Speaker 1: that you can deliver a quality product. That's sort of

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Speaker 1: the best place to be as a producer. And this

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Speaker 1: you said you set this deal about two years ago.

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Speaker 1: Did it take that long to find the right piece

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Speaker 1: of material? We under the deal had to bring them

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Speaker 1: three projects. So over the past two years we brought

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Speaker 1: them three shows. One was a pitch, One was a

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Speaker 1: script that was already written, a spec script that I

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Speaker 1: had optioned a while before. One was actually it's a

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Speaker 1: Man's World was actually a script we had previously sold

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Speaker 1: to Bravo as a one hour and it was in

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Speaker 1: turn around. So they did deals for all three of

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Speaker 1: those and then gave notes and the one that was

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Speaker 1: a pitch, the writers had to write the script. The

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Speaker 1: other two we had to turn It's a Man's World

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Speaker 1: from an hour into a half hour, and then UM,

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Speaker 1: the other one they had the writer do some extensive

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Speaker 1: rewrite sonics that was an hour as well, and so

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Speaker 1: it took about a year and a half and so

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Speaker 1: about six months ago they made the decision to pick

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Speaker 1: the one that we wanted. Unfortunately, one of the writers

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Speaker 1: of one of those projects passed away at that time,

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Speaker 1: so it limited UM, which is very sad. He was

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Speaker 1: a very lovely man who was the UM, Charlie Bull,

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Speaker 1: and so it was sort of this very surprising tragic thing.

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Speaker 1: So that limited the decision to two projects rather than one,

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Speaker 1: I mean, rather than three. Right during that time, UM,

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Speaker 1: when you have when you know, when you're juggling a

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Speaker 1: pitch and you're juggling you know, an outline, and then

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Speaker 1: you have something you know that with Teresa rebeca very

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Speaker 1: well known, a brand named writer and playwright, How is

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Speaker 1: it for your company as on a financial basis? Is

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Speaker 1: it is it? Um? Is it a struggle to keep

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Speaker 1: those that many things juggling in the air for a

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Speaker 1: for an extended period? You know, we're what you just

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Speaker 1: described as well outside of the traditional chaos of of

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Speaker 1: a traditional broadcast pilot season. Well, the nice thing about

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Speaker 1: platform and cable buyers is that they don't adhere to

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Speaker 1: a calendar, right, so you can really start and stop

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Speaker 1: any time of the year. Um. What I have found

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Speaker 1: though with our show at ABC, it's not really adhering

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Speaker 1: to any calendar. Also, maybe it's because of the Disney

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Speaker 1: Fox merger. There seems to be a lot of um

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Speaker 1: waiting around to see what's going to happen when that closes.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot going on there. Yeah, So um, I

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Speaker 1: actually like the idea of not having a schedule. I

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Speaker 1: think it just allows the material to get to the

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Speaker 1: place where it needs to be and then you move forward,

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Speaker 1: which gives you the time to really nurture a project,

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Speaker 1: which I like. Is there a downside? Though? We've we've

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Speaker 1: often heard from writers and creatives that that kind of

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Speaker 1: the lack of a schedule can be challenging because they

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Speaker 1: don't know if something is going to get going. They

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Speaker 1: don't know. Sometimes their ability to get other work in

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Speaker 1: the in the inter room can be can be constricted.

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Speaker 1: Although I know those those rules are changing a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Um Well, if you look at the timeline of what

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Speaker 1: happened with I'm Dying up here, that was a very

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Speaker 1: long time. That was a Showtime series that produced for

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Speaker 1: two seasons, correct, and so we went in and pitched that.

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Speaker 1: I can't even remember what year it was, it must

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Speaker 1: have been that we went around and watched that and

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Speaker 1: Showtime bought it as a pitch. It was then a

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Speaker 1: year process of Dave Flabatt, the showrunner, writing the pilot script.

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Speaker 1: We probably had a year after the pilot's script was

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Speaker 1: turned in while we waited around for Showtime to make

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Speaker 1: a decision. I think it was not for lack of

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Speaker 1: Showtime's enthusiasm. I think it was literally them looking at

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Speaker 1: their shows and seeing when they had an opening in

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Speaker 1: their schedule for a new show. There were a couple

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Speaker 1: shows that were ending that they were waiting for their

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Speaker 1: seasons to be done, and they were really looking at

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Speaker 1: other material that was coming in at the same time.

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Speaker 1: So that was quite a long time for the cable schedule.

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Speaker 1: Usually things happen, they usually tell you within six months

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Speaker 1: of a script being turned in, but this that was

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Speaker 1: a really long time. UM. Talking back to it's a

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Speaker 1: man's world, can you talk about I know you can't

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Speaker 1: talk dollars and cents, but can you talk about the

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Speaker 1: economics of doing a YouTube pilot? Is it comparable to

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Speaker 1: a basic cable or premium cable type of a deal?

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Speaker 1: It is. It's a half hours and it's the first

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Speaker 1: half hour I've ever made. I'm used to being in

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Speaker 1: the world of hours, which you know, have grown. The budgets,

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Speaker 1: I would say, from when we first did the pilot

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Speaker 1: for mad Men UM, which was in a little bit

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Speaker 1: over three million dollars. You're looking now at pilots that

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Speaker 1: are being made, you know, in the hour round eight

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Speaker 1: nine million dollars for a pilot. So they're very expensive

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Speaker 1: right now, not all of them are. Some of them

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Speaker 1: are more like five million. But they have gone up

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Speaker 1: in the half hour space. I think YouTube premium is

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Speaker 1: squarely in the half hour budget range. They actually, during

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Speaker 1: the term of our deal raised the level. When we

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Speaker 1: first did the deal, they went up slightly and said,

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Speaker 1: you know, we see how competitive the marketplace is now

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Speaker 1: to cast to get quality directors. And they've actually brought

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Speaker 1: up the budget where this week discussing exactly what our

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Speaker 1: budget and schedule are, so um, we should know by

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Speaker 1: nets week and be able to get going because of that,

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Speaker 1: because the realities are. It's this is the other challenge.

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Speaker 1: With so much programming being made, no one is available.

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Speaker 1: So you look at the landscape creative talent wise correct,

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Speaker 1: so you're looking at who's out there. There's a ton

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Speaker 1: of great directors out there working right now, and thankfully

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Speaker 1: there are phenomenal female directors now being given opportunities that weren't.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of diverse talent out there, but they

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Speaker 1: are busy. It is so hard right now to say, okay,

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Speaker 1: I have a pilot shooting in three months from now

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Speaker 1: at least when we got green light back in August,

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Speaker 1: and find somebody that can actually do it for the

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Speaker 1: time you're looking at. So you can't say, oh, I

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Speaker 1: want you to do this for five dollars. You have

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Speaker 1: to entice people to be able to fit it in

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Speaker 1: their schedule because they have so many options right and

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Speaker 1: in this process, I would imagine there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: pleading with talent agents to to to arrange people's schedules.

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Speaker 1: Would you say the agencies have become in in arranging

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Speaker 1: that kind of that kind of base level staffing of

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Speaker 1: a show that they would you say that they've become

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Speaker 1: more important for the sought after talent beyond the beyond

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Speaker 1: the stars, I'm talking about even just the basics of

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Speaker 1: a crew, or basically when you are green light to production,

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Speaker 1: pretty much all of the agencies and management companies are

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Speaker 1: there and helpful and will really vet your lists of

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Speaker 1: who's available, who's not. And I've seen that there for

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Speaker 1: the most part, very helpful. It's really more when you're

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Speaker 1: trying to package something that you're taking to the market

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Speaker 1: that because there's so much work, nobody's really interested anymore

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Speaker 1: in putting their talent or their director with a project

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Speaker 1: that hasn't sold yet. So I have found that is

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Speaker 1: if you go to the agencies for that, it's much

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Speaker 1: more difficult. They're happy to have you meet with the

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Speaker 1: young playwright that wants to get into TV, who really

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Speaker 1: could be the most talented up and coming writer. It

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Speaker 1: could be the next Bo williman Um who I met

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Speaker 1: when he was still a Juilliard and I gave him

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Speaker 1: his first writing job when I was at AMC. He

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Speaker 1: came in with a pitch um and started his TV career. UM.

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Speaker 1: So he didn't go to pilot. It didn't. It was

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Speaker 1: actually sort of a a precursor to Underground. It was

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Speaker 1: set on a plant, southern plantation, and it dealt with

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Speaker 1: the lives of the people that lived on the plantation.

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Speaker 1: And um, at that particular moment in time, I don't

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Speaker 1: think it was what AMC was doing right. Um. But

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm always open and eager to meet with

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Speaker 1: young talent, with new directors and and break people because

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm just looking for people that have great

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Speaker 1: voices and are saying something unique and different that hasn't

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Speaker 1: been said before. Um. But in terms of attaching people

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Speaker 1: to things, I find the agencies are less willing to

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Speaker 1: do that when they know that there's so much work

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Speaker 1: out there, right, you don't want to lock somebody up

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Speaker 1: for for too long. UM. Again, working with YouTube, with

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Speaker 1: you know, a very newish platform, even in the world

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Speaker 1: of a lot of new platforms, does it concern you

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Speaker 1: or the or the folks that you're working with? It

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Speaker 1: I TV America that you know, do you have to

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Speaker 1: have a discussion about what is the potential back end

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Speaker 1: here before you commit to something like that. All of

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Speaker 1: these deals have really shifted. UM. I have found as

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Speaker 1: a producer you never see back end, regardless it's a myth.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a myth. UM. I think even when

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Speaker 1: a show is profitable for a producer. I will not

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Speaker 1: name the show, but there is a very successful show,

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Speaker 1: UM that I knew intimately the inner workings of, and

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Speaker 1: I knew it was profitable, and the producer and the

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Speaker 1: show runner at the end of however many seasons the

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Speaker 1: show had run, we're telling me that the studio was

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Speaker 1: telling them that the show was still in the red

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Speaker 1: and if you just looked at the show, you would go,

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Speaker 1: there's no way that that's possible. And they actually had

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Speaker 1: to sue the studio for their back end. So it

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Speaker 1: is incredibly difficult to get back end on a show.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of these new platforms like Netflix, they

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Speaker 1: buy you out and they give you your deal upfront.

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Speaker 1: So whether your show is going to be Game of

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Speaker 1: Thrones or whether it's something that is you know, a

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Speaker 1: flash in the pan and going away after the first season,

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Speaker 1: they estimate what they think the potential could be and

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Speaker 1: they give that to your up front. And as a producer,

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Speaker 1: I think just in terms of business, it's probably makes

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Speaker 1: more sense to do a model like that, because even

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Speaker 1: when you have one of the most successful shows on TV,

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Speaker 1: you're still going to have to fight for that back

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Speaker 1: end and probably won't get the reality of what it's

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Speaker 1: really worth. Wow, And again, how do you I'm curious

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Speaker 1: how how does a YouTube or Netflix estimate what that

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Speaker 1: back end like, I have no idea. You would have

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Speaker 1: to ask that super secret mathematical formulas. I just this

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Speaker 1: is all fascinating because it is all changing so much,

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Speaker 1: it is, and to try and keep up with it.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you have I have um an exclusive

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Speaker 1: overhead deal at I TV Studios America, so my deals

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Speaker 1: are pre negotiated. It doesn't matter what platform or channel

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Speaker 1: I sell to. My deal is the same because it's

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Speaker 1: with I t V for all of these shows. So

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Speaker 1: it's really about I t V than negotiating the deal

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Speaker 1: with that particular buyer. It doesn't really affect me because

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Speaker 1: it's already sentenced one what I get interesting and so

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Speaker 1: that's obviously that is one of the advantages of aligning

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Speaker 1: with an I t V something, a company with some

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Speaker 1: real heft and real um, you know, clout in the

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Speaker 1: marketplace and a lot of resources that they can bring

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Speaker 1: to bear. And and we've all been seeing a lot

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Speaker 1: more kind of you know, cross border productions, seeing a

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Speaker 1: lot of British and US co productions. I know you've done,

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Speaker 1: You've done several over the years. It would seem like

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Speaker 1: that that is a that that would be a big

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Speaker 1: benefit to producer, to a producer, to have somebody like

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Speaker 1: that vacue. But do you ever does that the fact

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Speaker 1: that your deal is already pre negotiated, is that ever

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Speaker 1: an issue in terms of setting something up. It hasn't

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Speaker 1: been an issue in terms of actually doing the deal. Um,

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Speaker 1: when we sell something, what is becoming more and more

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Speaker 1: apparent is that every buyer wants to own their content. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So originally when we sold I'm Dying up Here, I

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Speaker 1: was running Cineflix Studios, and it became very clear that

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Speaker 1: Showtime wanted to own the show, and so Showtime in

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Speaker 1: house studio took over the show, and so it gave

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Speaker 1: it a lot more likelihood of going to production because

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Speaker 1: they owned it. And if you look at Netflix, they

404
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Speaker 1: want to own their shows. Amazon wants to own their shows,

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Speaker 1: AMC Stars they all want to own their shows. So

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Speaker 1: it narrows. There's lots of buyers, but it narrows the

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Speaker 1: buyers that are willing to work with an independent studio

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Speaker 1: or the studio for that matter, Apple does, uh, YouTube

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Speaker 1: does um? I think Facebook does. So it there really

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Speaker 1: aren't the fifteen buyers that you say that are out

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Speaker 1: there for studios. There are for producers. But if I

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Speaker 1: didn't have a deal, I'm just an unemployed producer. So

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Speaker 1: as a producer in a in a world where back

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Speaker 1: end is increasingly becoming a myth, you you survive. Your

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Speaker 1: livelihood comes from the upfront fees. Yes, so obviously the

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Speaker 1: motivation to have things both in development and obviously you know,

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Speaker 1: trying to get on the air. Yeah. Development, Um still

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Speaker 1: means I'm just an unemployed producer because I don't make

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Speaker 1: any money in development. The writer does. So Really the

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Speaker 1: way that I make money is shows in production. I

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Speaker 1: I have a deal, so I make a salary out

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Speaker 1: of that. And without a deal, I think it's very hard.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of young people who are

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Speaker 1: coming to the business right now saying, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: there's so many buyers. I'm going to go out and

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Speaker 1: you know, sell five shows and make a living doing this.

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Speaker 1: But your show might not get greenland for a couple

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Speaker 1: of years. Like I said, a one to tend ratio,

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Speaker 1: the majority of them are not going to move forward,

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Speaker 1: So you could spend years upon years not receiving a

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Speaker 1: dime for your a lot of work that you have

432
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 1: to put in. So that's why you see most producers

433
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 1: who have experience and have made multiple shows. It's a

434
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: man's world. I think is my ninth TV series that

435
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 1: I've made UM over a period since two thousand five,

436
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: I've pretty much been in production on a show since

437
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 1: two thousand five every year. So when you look at

438
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: people that are sort of at my level, UM, the

439
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 1: way that they can sustain is by having a deal.

440
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,199
Speaker 1: It's a high wire act, I would imagine. You know

441
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: it is because as the buyer's shrink in terms of

442
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,479
Speaker 1: the buyers that want to work with studios, you have

443
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 1: to weigh your options. So you really have to say

444
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: how many shows can I sell under this del versus

445
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 1: how many shows can I sell without a studio. But

446
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 1: you have to also have an income, so and you know,

447
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: it would be incredibly expensive to pay writers to write scripts.

448
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: It's incredibly expensive to whenever we take a show to

449
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: the market, we're flying writers sometimes from New York or

450
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 1: the UK, putting them up for a week in l A.

451
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 1: Those costs are incredibly prohibitive if you're an independent producer,

452
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,239
Speaker 1: so you do need the backing of a bigger company, right,

453
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: either that or a trust fund. If you could put

454
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,239
Speaker 1: your if you could put your mind back to your

455
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: days as a buyer. As on the programming side, how

456
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: do you think and granted it's a much different world,

457
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: but how do you think the buyer Christina Wayne would

458
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 1: have responded to these shifts in you know, deeply packaged

459
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: projects coming to the market, the push for straight to

460
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: series orders. Do you think that on the buying side

461
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: that this is a good thing for the quality? I

462
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: think that there's a ton of programming right now that's

463
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 1: being made that is just filler. I think it is

464
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: pretty mediocre. And the there are the amazingly beautiful of

465
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: Dune shows. I'm a huge fan of The Crown and

466
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: things like that, you know, Handmaid's Tale. These are shows

467
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 1: that are exquisite and deserve all the kudos that they get. UM.

468
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 1: The thing that I miss from back in the days

469
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: of when I was at AMC is that because there

470
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: were so few programs being made, the ones that rose

471
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 1: to the top we're quite good. There wasn't a lot

472
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: of just mediocre programming being made because people weren't willing

473
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: to spend the money on just mass content. And so

474
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 1: now I just see that there's an onslaught of just

475
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: very forgettable programming, and I, UM, I worry about that

476
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: moving forward, having just had an experience on a very

477
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 1: high quality show at a top level network. We're talking

478
00:25:55,359 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: about I'm dying up here where because there's so there's

479
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: so much choice out there that your show isn't getting

480
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: the attention from people like you and the critics that

481
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: when you know, we launched Even Copper, which was for

482
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: BBC America. When I was executive producing that, UM, the

483
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 1: landscape was very different, just literally what five years ago,

484
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: six years ago? Yeah, And so we launched that and

485
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: with just the standard marketing dollars, we were able to

486
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: be on lots of different areas in journalism, So it

487
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: wasn't just the TV pages that the show was being

488
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 1: written about. It was written about in um more historical

489
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: context fashion context, because it was a historical drama, and

490
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: so the ability to get an audience to that show.

491
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 1: The viewership was over a million viewers per episode. That

492
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: is incredibly difficult to get now because you have five

493
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: hundred shows being produced at this moment in time, and

494
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: so you're not getting the pr that you normally would

495
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: get when there were only you know, two hundred shows

496
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:10,959
Speaker 1: being produced, and your ability to sustain and continue is

497
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 1: not going to be there in the same way that

498
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: it was before because if you don't hit those ratings

499
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: out of the gate um buyers are not as patient

500
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: as they want for to grow an audience. Have you

501
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: found that it's it's either ratings or lots and lots

502
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: of acclaim from all you know from critics gushing about

503
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: is that enough to keep a show on the air.

504
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 1: I think it's you have to have one or the other.

505
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: But even with a lot of critical acclaims, sometime it

506
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: still doesn't keep the show on the air. Yeah. Well, Christina,

507
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: thank you for taking us through the ins and outs

508
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: of dealmaking for the independent producer. It's fascinating and I

509
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: know one of the reasons you're so conversed in on

510
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: this is that you have recently launched an kind of

511
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: an online education venture for people interested in getting into

512
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 1: the content business that you called TV school. Tell us

513
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: about that, sure. About a year ago, I launched Television

514
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: School dot com. And one of the main reasons I

515
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: did it is that I often speak at some of

516
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: the colleges that have film programs, and what I noticed,

517
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 1: whether it's Columbia, n y U or Brooklyn College, is

518
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: that they are still traditionally focused predominantly on teaching students

519
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: about the film business, but there isn't as comprehensive an

520
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: education on the TV business. And the reality is, because

521
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: the TV business is booming and the film business is shrinking,

522
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: most of these students are going to go out into

523
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: the world and get a job in TV because there

524
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: are way more jobs. And so I had tons of

525
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: students coming to me asking me questions after I would

526
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: be sort of a guest person teacher for the class,

527
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: and I realized the same questions were being asked over

528
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: and over. And when I work with a lot of writers,

529
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: whether they are super seasoned or just getting into the business,

530
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: there's sort of certain structural UM, just touchstones that you

531
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: kind of need to all have the same language for

532
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: so you can work through developing a pilot script or

533
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: a pilot pitch. And so my husband was always saying

534
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: to me when he would listen to me on phone

535
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: calls with people, just write a book. You say the

536
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: same thing over and over a day after day. And

537
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: so instead of doing that, I decided I would put

538
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: like a master class UM, a series of episodes that

539
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: talk about different aspects of what it is to be

540
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: and get into the TV business. How to write a

541
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: pilot script, how to get an agent, how to maneuver

542
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,959
Speaker 1: through a deal. It's really the soup to nuts of

543
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: working in the TV business and my twenty five years

544
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: of experience of what I've learned and sort of the

545
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: reality of it, not the sort of fake like, oh,

546
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: you'll make lots of money, because that's not always the case.

547
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: And so I really wanted to give people, UM the

548
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: real information of what you have to go through, how

549
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: it works, how long things take, UM, what the reality is.

550
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: I have a lot of young writers that come in

551
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: when we actually do sell something, they think they're getting rich,

552
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: and then when look at the deal, they're like, oh,

553
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: maybe I do have to keep a day job for

554
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: a little white hard to pay the rent on this. Yes,

555
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: and so it's you know, even when you're a staff writer,

556
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: it's better than working at Starbucks. But when you're getting

557
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: your first job as a staff writer on a show,

558
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,959
Speaker 1: you're not making an enormous amount of money. And so

559
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: I think it's just really important to get the real

560
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: information to people. Um and so anybody who's interested in

561
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: working in television. I think it's a great just sort

562
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: of overview of how to work in the business and

563
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: how to get your toe in there and really what

564
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: to do. So that's why I started that. And is

565
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: it something where you pay per episode or you you

566
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: pay a fee and get a get a number of

567
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: episodes over you do. There's seven episodes right now. The

568
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: first one you can watch for free to get a

569
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: flavor of what it feels like, and it's a hundred dollars.

570
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: I wanted to keep the cost down so that pretty

571
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: much anybody could afford to buy that. There's also downloadable elements.

572
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: One of the biggest things that most people make the

573
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: mistake on when they want to take out a project.

574
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,719
Speaker 1: Their producer, a director or a writer or even an

575
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: actor that wants to get in and you know, make

576
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: something for themselves. They come up with an idea in

577
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: a vacuum and they don't know the marketplace. So what

578
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: we do is very important. Yeah, we constantly update information

579
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: who all the buyers are, who are the people that

580
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: work at all of these different places, and what they

581
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: have in development and production, so that you don't waste

582
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: six months to a year of your time coming up

583
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: with a pitch or a script that you then learn, uh,

584
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: some platform or some buyer is about to launch as

585
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: a TV series and you've wasted an entire year of

586
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: your time, And we update that every couple of months.

587
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: And so part of UM enrolling in TV school is

588
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: the ability to constantly have that renewed information. So you're

589
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: kind of part of an information club that you get,

590
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: which I think makes a huge difference when you're going

591
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: out and just starting. So you get sort of insider

592
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: info on what's going on. Yeah, it sounds like a

593
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: good sounds like a good resource. Have you had much

594
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: uptake on the classes, Yeah, it's um. It goes through

595
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: waves probably around graduation season exactly. There's a lot of

596
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: parents who are listening to their children saying that they

597
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: either want to go to one of these film schools

598
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: or graduating from college who want to get into the business,

599
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: and they are buying it for their kids to say, Okay,

600
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: here's the real deal of what it really takes. Are

601
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: you willing to do that? Uh? I guess my last

602
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,719
Speaker 1: question for you here is, UM, would would you in

603
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: this environment, as as fraught as it is. I can

604
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: see your enthusiasm for being a producer in packaging material?

605
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: Would you ever go back to the executive side if

606
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 1: the right if a compelling opportunity came up, would you

607
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: go back to being a programmer or a buyer? I would,

608
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, I've been thinking about it a lot recently, UM,

609
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: and I think that there's a lot of new opportunity

610
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: with new technology. My whole career has always been based

611
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: on wanting to um challenge myself and learn something new

612
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: and about every five years. I sort of, you know,

613
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: started on the programming so I to the channel, learned

614
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: what a domestic buyer did, then went into an international

615
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: studio to really learn the international market and the studio

616
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: side of the business. And now as a producer, I

617
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: sort of get to take all of those skills and

618
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: put them together. And I love the more entrepreneurial idea

619
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: of working at some of these places that are really

620
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: fusing tech and um content, and so I find that

621
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: incredibly exciting. If there were an opportunity that would be

622
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: able to really be somewhere where I could grow and

623
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: learn something new and really attack a new challenge, then

624
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: I would absolutely be open to that. Great. Well, thank

625
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: you so much for stopping buying giving us a glimpse

626
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: into the into the life and the work of an

627
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: independent producer in this in this crazy moment for television.

628
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: Appreciate it. Thanks for having me, Thanks for listening. Be

629
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: sure to join us next week for another episode of

630
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: Strictly Business.