Speaker 1: The Quest Loft Show is a production of iHeart Radio.
Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Quest Love Show. I
Speaker 1: am Questlove and man, the hits keep happening. Our legendary
Speaker 1: guest today has made history, starting back in nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: one sweeping the Grammys, first time sweeping the Big Four
Speaker 1: that means album, song record and oh best New Artist.
Speaker 1: Of course, he has worked with everyone. We will get
Speaker 1: into it. Of course. We know this man needs no introduction.
Speaker 1: Name it from Michael McDonald to Brian Wilson, to Bert
Speaker 1: Backrack to Peter Allen, Carol, I cannot wait to ask
Speaker 1: you what that room was like. And my research I
Speaker 1: also discovered that you might have a Ginger Baker story
Speaker 1: to tell I do. I hope you survived it. Our
Speaker 1: guest today and myself appeared in the very enjoyable yacht
Speaker 1: Rock Doc, a doc so good that my own producers
Speaker 1: a little bit angry at me, like what the hell?
Speaker 1: But I enjoyed doing that so much. We have met
Speaker 1: a few times, and one of those times was a
Speaker 1: bucket list moment for me. Recreating the legendary SCTV bit
Speaker 1: of Rick moranis doing Michael McDonald as a background singer
Speaker 1: on The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon. We were supposed
Speaker 1: to do this in New York City, but somehow the
Speaker 1: star saw that we get to do this in La
Speaker 1: So of course took that opportunity to welcome the great
Speaker 1: Christopher Cross to the Quest Left Show. Thank you for
Speaker 1: doing this for.
Speaker 2: Me, best pleasure, Thank you honor to be here.
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, just to look at the the
Speaker 1: writing credits for the author theme, right, this is Bert Backrack,
Speaker 1: Carol berrys Aira, Peter Allen and yourself. I always wanted
Speaker 1: to know which one of you actually came up with
Speaker 1: the phrase between the Moon and New York City.
Speaker 2: Well, it's pretty fun because Bette Middler made a joke
Speaker 2: at the kade Mere Words about four on a song.
Speaker 2: What is this you know? Because there are four writers right. Well,
Speaker 2: what happened was I was asked by Iran Pictures to
Speaker 2: score the movie and I was like, well, okay, I've
Speaker 2: never scored a movie, but you know that was during
Speaker 2: my fifteen minutes and everything. Everybody's coming to me with stuff.
Speaker 2: But then Stephen Gordon, who wrote Arthur, was also first
Speaker 2: time director, so he didn't want everything to be new
Speaker 2: so he said, I think we need to find somebody
Speaker 2: to score it who's got some experience. So they gave
Speaker 2: it to Backreck and Bert was married to Krabar Sega
Speaker 2: at the time, right, And so they called me up
Speaker 2: about you know, Burt's going to score, but we need
Speaker 2: a theme which you want to write it with us,
Speaker 2: And of course I was under no illusion that, you know,
Speaker 2: I was the new kid in town, so as Don
Speaker 2: Henley like to say, and so you know, they invited
Speaker 2: me over the house. I went there about midnight, their
Speaker 2: house in Beverly Hills, and it was pretty heavy.
Speaker 1: I walked in. They asked you to come at midnight.
Speaker 2: Well, just whatever it worked out. I got there about
Speaker 2: midnight at Bird's house and I walked in there. Course
Speaker 2: there's two oscars on the mantel already, so it was
Speaker 2: intimidating for sure, but Sonny would and answer your question.
Speaker 2: We started working on the music, and then once we
Speaker 2: get the music kind of settled with Bert and I,
Speaker 2: then Carol and I started working on a lyric, and
Speaker 2: Carol actually stumbled on the realization that she and Peter
Speaker 2: Allen had a song they'd never finished, and it had
Speaker 2: the line when you get caught to in New York City,
Speaker 2: And that line actually came Peter was circling Kennedy and
Speaker 2: he was going to be his partner and he was
Speaker 2: stuck in a hold and the line popped into his head.
Speaker 2: So Carol told me when you get caught to the movie,
Speaker 2: because the moon was out his window on the plane
Speaker 2: and he's wanting to land to be with his partner.
Speaker 2: So Peter said, you know, I came up with the line.
Speaker 2: So Carol calls him on Australia said, hey, look, I'm
Speaker 2: working on the song with Christopher Cross and Bert and
Speaker 2: you know there's that song we never finished and has
Speaker 2: that line when you get Caught in New York City
Speaker 2: and it'd be perfect for what we're doing. Are you
Speaker 2: cool with us plugging this in? And Peter was very
Speaker 2: gracious about it, and so that's how it happened. He
Speaker 2: kind of he remotely phoned in the chorus of.
Speaker 1: The song and wanted to Oscar for it.
Speaker 2: He did, Yeah, I okay, but that's okay.
Speaker 1: Actually is a way better than in my mind. I
Speaker 1: had this whole thing of like I'm trying to figure
Speaker 1: out like how to for superpowers like arm wrestle some
Speaker 1: real estate into the song, like did you come with
Speaker 1: an acoustic guitar?
Speaker 2: Was Bert Bird's on piano? I just came and but
Speaker 2: I but I, but I had my ideas and from
Speaker 2: when I was originally supposed to do something, and so
Speaker 2: Burton and I kind of, you know, got the music together,
Speaker 2: and after that was done, then Burt just sort of
Speaker 2: played to accompany us, you know, writing the lyric. Carroll
Speaker 2: had a yellowpad. But you know, there's a thing quest
Speaker 2: about countain lines. I learned from Will Jennings, the great
Speaker 2: songwriter one time when I worked with Will, and I
Speaker 2: was trying to figure out, well, how much credit should
Speaker 2: I get or you get? And he said, man, I'm
Speaker 2: not into Countain lions. And it was a real piece
Speaker 2: of wisdom for me. I was just an experience because
Speaker 2: you don't count lines, man, you just.
Speaker 1: Whatever does that? I just split it happy, whatever.
Speaker 2: Your participation is. So yeah, I mean Peter wasn't actually
Speaker 2: in the room, but when Carol told me the line,
Speaker 2: we were looking at Rushes from the film and I'm like,
Speaker 2: you're crazy, that's insane, that's like perfect. So yeah, that's
Speaker 2: how it happened. As far as I remember.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's great. What is your first musical memory in life?
Speaker 2: Well, probably you know, Buddy Holly, Peggy Sue or something,
Speaker 2: or Everly Brothers, possibly Ray Charles, I Can't Stop Loving You.
Speaker 2: I mean, these are all singles that I bought for
Speaker 2: ninety nine cents back in the day.
Speaker 1: You know, what was the first record that you brought
Speaker 1: with your own money?
Speaker 2: How to be one of those? Probably Everly Brothers, Wake
Speaker 2: Up Lit SUSI, or maybe Buddy Holly Sue Again. I
Speaker 2: bought remember I Can't Stop You, but also bought a
Speaker 2: lot of weird things like Yaka yak and you know
Speaker 2: the coasters. Yeah, those things. So we used to buy
Speaker 2: singles and my sister had one of those little carrying
Speaker 2: cases of forty five. You know. Also, Ricky Nelson was
Speaker 2: a big We watched that was You Heard show, so
Speaker 2: you know, things were very eclectic then, you know, the
Speaker 2: charts were all over the place. You had like Hella Mother,
Speaker 2: Hell of Fadda, and then you had yeah, so it
Speaker 2: was a lot different than it is now.
Speaker 1: Wait, that was a Hello Mother, Hello Fada.
Speaker 2: That was a big hit.
Speaker 1: That was an actual song. See, okay, I feel so
Speaker 1: dumb now.
Speaker 2: Well, no, You're the You're the ultimate music.
Speaker 1: No, that was a single, Okay, So you know, like
Speaker 1: when something becomes classic, then it becomes a commercial, right,
Speaker 1: Like I didn't know that Barefoot and it wasn't.
Speaker 2: Just a speaking no no.
Speaker 1: No. I knew it was the Speaking Span commercial because
Speaker 1: it got picked up in commercials. But I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: I got nieces and nephews that think that, you know,
Speaker 1: the rap song from Black Sheep is the choice of
Speaker 1: yours driving Hamsters was just for that commercial. I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: that was like one of the biggest rap songs of
Speaker 1: all time, but I didn't know that that was an
Speaker 1: actual song. I just know it as the downy commercial. No.
Speaker 2: And like things like uh sorry, there's a single that
Speaker 2: was out called Stranger on the Shore by this guy Akerbilk,
Speaker 2: who was this Swedish clarinetist or something, and you know,
Speaker 2: Cherriot's a fire theme. All these kinds of things. Radio
Speaker 2: was so eclectic. It was in fact, I was doing
Speaker 2: to Jimmy Webb about MacArthur Park because it was seven
Speaker 2: and half minutes long and you would never get away
Speaker 2: with that now, and so it was. I had all
Speaker 2: kinds of singles, but I think the early exposure was
Speaker 2: probably like I said, I'd have to if I will
Speaker 2: go back Everly Brothers, Buddy, Holly Ray, Charles, Richie Allen's
Speaker 2: Big One.
Speaker 1: You know you mentioned MacArthur Park. You know. I grew
Speaker 1: up in a Chibis family, and there's a turnaround in
Speaker 1: that song. I'm two years old and and my dad
Speaker 1: was such a tyrant, and this is way before I'm
Speaker 1: drumming for him. I didn't start drumming for him until
Speaker 1: I was eleven, but I remember it was like the
Speaker 1: musical version of if you ever see in a Bronx
Speaker 1: Tail when the Hell's Angels come in and they mess
Speaker 1: up the bar, and that moment where he's like, and
Speaker 1: now you can't leave. My dad was like, I will
Speaker 1: make you motherfuckers do that turnaround until I'm satisfied, and
Speaker 1: I don't care if it takes all night. And literally,
Speaker 1: I remember, this is the only time I felt like
Speaker 1: it was a musical punishment for his band. They had
Speaker 1: to play that turnaround like ad nausea and I'm in bed.
Speaker 1: It's like nine pm and they're rehearsing in the living
Speaker 1: room downstairs, and that loop just yea.
Speaker 2: Because so many people said to me, what the hell
Speaker 2: is a song about someone left a cake out on
Speaker 2: the rain. It's a monster romance. I mean, the cake
Speaker 2: is a woman. You know, it's like hello until now.
Speaker 1: Like I again, because I was three years old, I
Speaker 1: literally took everything that he said in that song, like literally.
Speaker 1: So anytime I see a coconut cake like Magnolia, like
Speaker 1: Downstream from Fallon, I still get thoughts of a white
Speaker 1: coconut cake inside raised storm. Why are we talking about
Speaker 1: this song?
Speaker 2: Because I just brought up you know how radio was
Speaker 2: so eclectic then, Like I said, anything went. There was
Speaker 2: all this stuff, like I said, from Ray Stevens, you know,
Speaker 2: things like Ali you all these things. So my exposure
Speaker 2: was pretty broad. What city Sanatoria, Texas?
Speaker 1: Okay? Do you remember the first concert you ever went?
Speaker 2: To tell the truth? I think it was Herman's Hermits.
Speaker 1: What yours is? When was this? Well?
Speaker 2: How to be? Sixties? You know, I was born in
Speaker 2: fifty one, so sixties. I saw Hermas Hermits. I saw
Speaker 2: the Who procol Harum quite a few bands early on.
Speaker 2: I can't keep track of the order, but certainly Hermas
Speaker 2: Hermits was one of the early ones who I saw
Speaker 2: quite a few times.
Speaker 1: I saw, you know, the Moon's drum set stay intact.
Speaker 2: Or yeah, they didn't blow it up that day, and yeah,
Speaker 2: and then people like h of course I got to
Speaker 2: see lots of great stuff. You know, Hendrix many times,
Speaker 2: you know, so really yeah three times, Jimmie three.
Speaker 1: Times pre eighty four. Live records didn't feel the same
Speaker 1: that it always felt like. And then I discovered once
Speaker 1: I started investigating, that some live records weren't live records
Speaker 1: at all, like, oh, that's why it sounds so pristine.
Speaker 1: They were, you know, right every yeah, or some sound
Speaker 1: check recordings with overdubs or whatever. But I always wanted
Speaker 1: to know when you saw a live okay Hendricks, for example,
Speaker 1: were you able to feel the music like that or
Speaker 1: did it down like tinny and far away, like almost
Speaker 1: the equivalent of like your monitors being on and only
Speaker 1: your monitors being on.
Speaker 2: Well that with Jimmy because he came Santonio when he
Speaker 2: played in an old theater that had a big velvet curtain,
Speaker 2: you know, it was closed, and Jimmy was using I'm
Speaker 2: a guitar player, so Jimmy was using these big sun
Speaker 2: amplifiers at the time, like bigger than anybody used there.
Speaker 2: He had three of them like this, you know.
Speaker 1: He's the sound would come from.
Speaker 2: He was the first. Yeah, he was the first guy
Speaker 2: to kind of really crack it up. And I remember
Speaker 2: I was in the seventh row and I heard, you know,
Speaker 2: some rumblings behind the stage and I heard this bitch
Speaker 2: and it was Jimmy plugging in his guitar, you know,
Speaker 2: all right, and he hit like a fifth on the
Speaker 2: guitar and the curtain just and we were like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, what like velser raptors back there or something.
Speaker 2: And then he started Foxy Lady and they opened the
Speaker 2: curtain and he was in total green with the hat
Speaker 2: with the feather and it was so amazing. The sound
Speaker 2: was so incredible that he was like from outer space. Man,
Speaker 2: it was like something you'd never ever seen. But so yeah,
Speaker 2: So in the case of Hendricks, he had a big
Speaker 2: sent He couldn't hear Mitch Mitchell for shit.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, was the sound just coming
Speaker 1: from the stage.
Speaker 2: Or mostly from the States? Well, look at the Beatles
Speaker 2: at Shay Stadium. You know, they just had like sure
Speaker 2: columns or vox columns. I mean it was ridiculous compared
Speaker 2: to so yeah, but still you know, seeing these artists.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm still thrilled to have gotten to see him,
Speaker 2: you know, Kareem live and stuff like that at the
Speaker 2: film where No, it was it was incredible.
Speaker 1: Where's the moment where you saw a concert where you
Speaker 1: noticed the difference where it's like whoa, like real speakers
Speaker 1: that hit you in the stomach wow? Or was it
Speaker 1: just such a slow gradual.
Speaker 2: Actually I had a little local band called Flash and
Speaker 2: we actually got to open for several shows for Zeppelin
Speaker 2: on their very first tour in San Antonio, Texas had
Speaker 2: a rule that you had to have a local band
Speaker 2: on the show for thirty minutes of every show, So
Speaker 2: we got to open for Zeppelin on their first tour
Speaker 2: in the States. I was about nineteen, so sixty sixty
Speaker 2: nine seventy. It was out, yeah, and they were in
Speaker 2: a big venue and they had actually had a DCPA
Speaker 2: system and all that stuff. So that's probably the first
Speaker 2: time I saw real production, you know, probably then.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, so you mentioned that you were in a
Speaker 1: heart rock group, which I'm in the irony of it
Speaker 1: all is what represents you now. But you know, did
Speaker 1: playing heavy aggressive rock sort of shape your approach to
Speaker 1: writing pop melodies now, like.
Speaker 2: Well, actually, you know, opened for Zeppelins just because my
Speaker 2: manager at the time had a production company they brought
Speaker 2: Zeppelin in, so we just got to be on the show.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say we were so Actually one of my
Speaker 2: biggest influences at the time was Zappa, so the music
Speaker 2: was kind of like, you know, a bit progressive. I
Speaker 2: remember I met Frank and he sort of questioned me
Speaker 2: about me, claiming he was a big influence, and he
Speaker 2: kind of put me on the griddle, said, well, like
Speaker 2: I don't hear the He said, I like you music,
Speaker 2: but I don't hear the kinship. Can you give me somebods?
Speaker 2: And I came up worlding in for the money, bow
Speaker 2: tie Daddy, all this stuff, and.
Speaker 1: Then he's written a ray of song like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: everything was in the eleven nine meter like.
Speaker 2: But it was pretty funny with him. So what's interesting
Speaker 2: about Frank is years later he asked me to come
Speaker 2: sit in with him at a show out here and
Speaker 2: I couldn't. And a two weeks later in the mail,
Speaker 2: I get a cassette and it says Zappa wind that
Speaker 2: he played right like the wind in his show. Really, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a trip.
Speaker 1: How is his rendition of it?
Speaker 2: It's fast. He plays Wahwath guitar through the whole thing,
Speaker 2: and he said, Chris crosspos coming to I couldn't make it.
Speaker 2: So Brian the drum roady will be singing right like
Speaker 2: the wind and uh, it was all pretty funny. But no,
Speaker 2: so my music wasn't so much rock, although one of
Speaker 2: my big things on the internet to miss I actually
Speaker 2: subbed for Richie Blackmore in Deep Purple one time because
Speaker 2: Richie got sick and I subbed him. So, you know,
Speaker 2: I have long hair. I had hair, and I was
Speaker 2: influenced by Jeff Beck and rocketar players and stuff certainly,
Speaker 2: but but no, so my music was kind of interesting
Speaker 2: at that time. I said, I was kind of influenced
Speaker 2: a lot by Zappa and people like that. But then
Speaker 2: once I started getting into Brian Wilson and Carl Wilson,
Speaker 2: and then that's when things really turned.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, what did pet Sounds mean
Speaker 1: to you when it came out? Like I know a
Speaker 1: lot of us have these kind of retroactive responses to it, like, oh,
Speaker 1: it was a classic I always grew up with, But
Speaker 1: I know that that was a hard sell for people.
Speaker 1: Only certain few got it and people caught on later.
Speaker 1: But how much does God only knows mean to you
Speaker 1: as a well?
Speaker 2: I don't argue with mcartney. It's probably greatest, I mean,
Speaker 2: somewhere of the Rainbows right up there, But I think
Speaker 2: God only knows certainly great songs ever written. And Carl's
Speaker 2: my biggest vocal mentor so of course it was very
Speaker 2: important to me that, you know, because I was so
Speaker 2: close to Carl and I kind of emulated Carl growing up.
Speaker 2: But you got to realize, again, you're so much younger
Speaker 2: than me. Pet Sounds, but see, I got exposed to
Speaker 2: them early on. Like I remember Brian asking me, what's
Speaker 2: your favorite song of mine? And I told him it's
Speaker 2: the Lonely Sea, which is a very obscure tune off
Speaker 2: an early record, and Brian kind of dug it. He's like,
Speaker 2: the Lonely Sea, Yeah, cool, you know, and I said, yeah,
Speaker 2: I used to sit in the dark room and just
Speaker 2: listen that over him again. But no, Pet Sounds was revelatory.
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously the Beatles, you know, that's where Sergeant
Speaker 2: Pepper came in front of thing. So I mean it was incredible.
Speaker 2: In fact, even and then Surfs Up too, you know
Speaker 2: Surfs Up that records incredib Remember Mike McDonald picked me
Speaker 2: up for dinner one night and he had Surfs Up
Speaker 2: playing in his car, and you know, Mike definitely comes
Speaker 2: from an R and B place and I was like, wow, cool,
Speaker 2: and he said, yeah, somebody gave me this. He said
Speaker 2: it's pretty amazing, and I'm like, well, yeah, it.
Speaker 1: Is vouch like my dad loved. I mean, even though
Speaker 1: he was sort of cut from the cloth of do
Speaker 1: op and whatnot, but vocalists were his things. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: he was listening to streisand Johnny Mathis. He pattered himself
Speaker 1: after nacking Cole, but he had pet sounds in there.
Speaker 1: And you know, I remember I didn't catch one until
Speaker 1: it probably until I moved to London in ninety four.
Speaker 1: But I remember the second song, No No, the one
Speaker 1: that has a bike horn in it. Yeah, and when
Speaker 1: I was a kid, I was really amazed that they
Speaker 1: had the like bike sounds and bike bells in it.
Speaker 1: But you know it to me, the beauty that that
Speaker 1: album represents, I hear that a lot in your vocal
Speaker 1: Oh definitely, I feel like you're half that. And also
Speaker 1: how many times have you heard Bill Withers, Like, you
Speaker 1: have a tone in your voice that's very similar to
Speaker 1: Bill Withers. That appealed to me because he was like,
Speaker 1: my god before the Jackson's came along, like Bill Withers.
Speaker 2: Was Yeah, well no, I actually got to know a
Speaker 2: Bill a little bit. He and Marcia and their daughter
Speaker 2: forgets her name, beautiful girl. But no major fan of Bills,
Speaker 2: you know it. That was amazing, you know he was
Speaker 2: like he was in the army and that he got
Speaker 2: out and he started doing music and he just had
Speaker 2: an incredible career in the time he did. But Withers
Speaker 2: is amazing. So there are a lot of influence. I mean,
Speaker 2: Karen Carboner was a big influence on me, I would
Speaker 2: say vocally, but Carl was probably more than anybody else.
Speaker 2: The guy and Carl and I did a lot of
Speaker 2: background work together.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, what was it like having
Speaker 1: him because the list of people that are singing background
Speaker 1: with you, like from the Eagles to the Wilsons, what
Speaker 1: is that like having him in there?
Speaker 2: Well, having Carl come in to sing on my second
Speaker 2: record was kind of out of body for me. I
Speaker 2: mean standing next to him at the studio singing was
Speaker 2: just you know, beyond a dream come true. And then
Speaker 2: later on Carl and I did when Brian wasn't doing
Speaker 2: that well, he and I would do a lot of
Speaker 2: vocal sessions as an exempt. We did California Girls for
Speaker 2: davidly Roth. Wait, yeah, that's Carl and did all the
Speaker 2: background vocals. Yeah, because Brian Brian wasn't. Ted Templeman called
Speaker 2: me and said, hey, you know, David's doing a cover
Speaker 2: of this California Girls going to come in. I said, yeah, sure,
Speaker 2: and then Ted calls back and says, hey, we're thinking
Speaker 2: maybe kralcook them with him. I'm like, oh, I get it, now,
Speaker 2: I get it. That's okay. But so we did a
Speaker 2: lot of things together, Carl and I did where I
Speaker 2: was sort of subbing for Brian, if you will, because
Speaker 2: Brian wasn't that well. So yeah, we did California Girls,
Speaker 2: which is kind.
Speaker 1: Of have you ever heard is a rap record?
Speaker 2: David? No, Brian's Brian made a rap record?
Speaker 1: Dog? Okay, so that's not right. The Vasti Boys in
Speaker 1: eighty nine, their pet Sounds is an album called Paul's Boutique,
Speaker 1: and this is their second album. Of course you know,
Speaker 1: the first album sold gazillion copies, and you know, known
Speaker 1: of these Braddy dudes whatever, and they went totally left
Speaker 1: and made one of the greatest musical art collise records
Speaker 1: of all time. It's like one of the last Kamikazi
Speaker 1: sampling records. And it was produced by these guys called
Speaker 1: the Dust Brothers. It got massive critical claim even though
Speaker 1: it only sold like it went gold, but it got
Speaker 1: massive critical acclaim. And I believe somehow Brian Wilson got word.
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe kids put him onto it or whatever,
Speaker 1: but he liked Paul's boutique and wanted to meet the
Speaker 1: producers of it. So they introduced him to the Dust Brothers.
Speaker 1: And I think if you go on YouTube, it's not
Speaker 1: Earth Girls or Smart or Smart Girls, I like Smart
Speaker 1: Girls or something like that. It's it's almost like it's
Speaker 1: a PSA song.
Speaker 2: About Is this his answer to California Girls?
Speaker 1: Oh? It probably could be. So he did five songs
Speaker 1: with the Dust Brothers. And look, I mean, of course
Speaker 1: old guy rapping. It's gonna come off like the name
Speaker 1: is Brian and I'm here to say like, and I'm
Speaker 1: here to say it's always the second every old white
Speaker 1: Guy rap song. But yeah, he tried it and then
Speaker 1: stopped after the fifth song.
Speaker 2: But probably a good idea.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean I minor the balls and the
Speaker 1: nerve to try to conquer this.
Speaker 2: So yeah, the adventure to stuff I think's great. I
Speaker 2: was unaware off to check it out.
Speaker 1: There you go for all the type casting that you
Speaker 1: get for the genre of yacht rock, do you own
Speaker 1: a boat? I do not.
Speaker 2: One time, when Sailing was released, Warner Brothers bought fifteen
Speaker 2: Hoby Cats with the Christopher Cross first album logo on
Speaker 2: the sail, and they get put him in malls and
Speaker 2: I would go around when I was on the road
Speaker 2: and people would throw cards in the boats and I
Speaker 2: would pick the card out and you won the boat.
Speaker 2: So they gave me one. So for a while I
Speaker 2: had a Hoby Cat. But no, I've never what happened
Speaker 2: to it. I don't know. I've got the sail, but
Speaker 2: the boat's along gone. I think I washed away in
Speaker 2: malibur Ing. But you know, I always talk about the
Speaker 2: canvas doing miracles. It is more also a painter's canvas.
Speaker 2: But maybe that's trying too hard. I did do some
Speaker 2: sailing when I was younger, with an older friend of
Speaker 2: mine who took me out of the coast and stuff,
Speaker 2: and I'm sure that had something to do with it.
Speaker 2: But no, I'm not a real avid sailor. I've been
Speaker 2: on the America's cup boats and Dennis Connor and stuff
Speaker 2: like that, but it's all just pr stuff, you know.
Speaker 1: And I'm certain that even now you've done gigs at
Speaker 1: DOC adjacent or oh.
Speaker 2: Come on, yeah, I've done it. Yeah. At nausea, I.
Speaker 1: Say, are you tired of performing near water and outdoors
Speaker 1: and everything.
Speaker 2: Well, it's like we talked about the Dock, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, all of us have kind of a love
Speaker 2: hate thing with the whole yacht rock thing. You know,
Speaker 2: it's a little kitchy, but it's been fantastic the way
Speaker 2: it's brought the younger audience. But I think in the
Speaker 2: end of the Dock, I think Fagan kind of speaks
Speaker 2: for all of us in a way. Fagan anywhere it
Speaker 2: was fantastic because you know, my daughter Madison, who you know,
Speaker 2: produced the doc and when she the last hold out
Speaker 2: was Donald for the five songs to get licenses, and
Speaker 2: so the whole deal with Donald was this, Okay, if
Speaker 2: you do this, you know, call me up and record
Speaker 2: it and put it just as I say. Then I'll
Speaker 2: let you use the song.
Speaker 1: So well, that's all he wanted. This his last middle finger.
Speaker 1: Yeah uh Donald figure.
Speaker 2: Wow okay, but yeah, sure, I'm the poster child for
Speaker 2: the whole yel rock.
Speaker 1: Thinker amen own. It is legendary to me. Okay. So
Speaker 1: the one thing I learned in the doc, especially when
Speaker 1: you're talking about your grammy journey, have you since that
Speaker 1: night been able to properly speak to Barbara Streissan.
Speaker 2: Never met her all this time. I saw at a
Speaker 2: party once and Calvin Kleine. It was one of these,
Speaker 2: you know, Hollywood parties, and I ran it a Calvin Kline,
Speaker 2: who I didn't over to start talking to him and
Speaker 2: I said something, Oh, there's Brobaras stressing. You know, I've
Speaker 2: never met her, and he said, she didn't like you.
Speaker 2: But you know what, I think the problem was I
Speaker 2: have incredible respect for her and she and Barry and
Speaker 2: they were up for guilty. But the problem was I
Speaker 2: heard that somebody told her her press people said you
Speaker 2: need to come to the awards because you're gonna win,
Speaker 2: and as you know, you know that's that's not really true.
Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't think anybody knows who's gonna
Speaker 2: No one knows, you know. After I have messed new artist,
Speaker 2: I sat down. I was fine for the night. I
Speaker 2: was done, you know, they like and then other stuff
Speaker 2: started happening. So when Dinnah Ross, when she announced the
Speaker 2: album of the Year, I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 1: I just what is the burden of that level of success.
Speaker 2: Well, it's kind of nowhere to go but down, you know,
Speaker 2: like Elvis said, doing to be nice to people on
Speaker 2: the whip. If you don't want to plan on't come
Speaker 2: back down. For me, it was meteoric and I came
Speaker 2: out of nowhere, and so there's almost nothing I could
Speaker 2: have done to sustain it.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: I think another page of my second record was a
Speaker 2: bit ballid heavy, and the first record was much more eclectic.
Speaker 2: So but I've always made the records from where I
Speaker 2: was at emotionally, so I couldn't really control that. But
Speaker 2: maybe if I'd made a record like some of my
Speaker 2: later records, like Secret Letter in these that are more
Speaker 2: you know, diverse as a second record, maybe it's been different.
Speaker 2: But I got kind of labeled as a balladeer, especially
Speaker 2: after doing Arthur that was in between the first second records,
Speaker 2: and that's sort of oh that's who he is, you
Speaker 2: know kind of thing. But I wouldn't change it with
Speaker 2: thing for the world. But no, it's a big burden,
Speaker 2: the sophomoric effort. I think everybody that's you know, Bruce
Speaker 2: hornsby Ricky Lee Jones, it's a tough Tracy Chapman, it's
Speaker 2: a tough thing to sort of try to do the
Speaker 2: gate duplicate that you know, and some people Billy Ollis
Speaker 2: is doing really well with it. But it's a yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just but you know, I wouldn't trade it for
Speaker 2: the world. Quest It's like, you know, the career I've had,
Speaker 2: I never would have imagined any of it. So I'm
Speaker 2: just thrilled at what's happened.
Speaker 1: Have you ever went through the Nirvana phase where I'm
Speaker 1: almost certain that a year after Nevermind came out like
Speaker 1: they refuse to do smells like teen spirit, like we're
Speaker 1: just not doing it? Like for you is was there
Speaker 1: a time where you could I don't feel like doing
Speaker 1: sailing tonight or I like to win.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I feel it's a disservice to the audience.
Speaker 2: They paying for a ticket to come see you, and
Speaker 2: those are the songs they come to. I've got about
Speaker 2: six well known songs. So I was telling the guys
Speaker 2: earlier that sometimes I feel like I could play those
Speaker 2: six songs three times and it would be totally fine
Speaker 2: for the audience. But the biggest no, no, no, I'm
Speaker 2: thrilled with the songs. They're kind of like stones in
Speaker 2: the river that I step on to get across from
Speaker 2: a note e minute set. But I mean, it's it's tough.
Speaker 2: I've made twelve albums and I'm very fond of the
Speaker 2: later work, and it's tough that only a very few
Speaker 2: people I us know about these later deep cuts, but
Speaker 2: we do play some of them.
Speaker 1: How do you curate the big six next to what
Speaker 1: you really want to do?
Speaker 2: Well? You just like I said, there are little stones
Speaker 2: in the river. I just play them where I've got.
Speaker 2: I give them a little treat, you know, with a
Speaker 2: start with never be the Same or something, and then
Speaker 2: I'll sneak in a couple of deep cuts and about
Speaker 2: the time they're like, I'll go, oh wait a minute,
Speaker 2: here's sailing, you know. So, And like the other night,
Speaker 2: I had something happened and I had to do something
Speaker 2: acoustically because the PA went wrong. So I played Sailing
Speaker 2: again on the acoustic by myself and the audience sang
Speaker 2: along and everybody runs the event. He played it twice.
Speaker 2: You know, I literally think I could do the tune
Speaker 2: two or three times that, but I don't regret it.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, they put me on the map, so
Speaker 2: it's absolutely great. There are artists I know who who
Speaker 2: you know, they don't do that. They won't play certain
Speaker 2: songs and all that, and I think that's kind of
Speaker 2: a disservice to your fans, you know that.
Speaker 1: I think I shared this before we did a show
Speaker 1: like once a year when he's active, Dave Matthews will
Speaker 1: do like his personal festival where he curates all the
Speaker 1: artists that come whatever. And spin doctors were coming on
Speaker 1: right before the Roots were about to perform, and like
Speaker 1: the way that like they treated two princes almost like
Speaker 1: it was filler, like it was the fourth song or
Speaker 1: the fifth song. They did it in such a strug way,
Speaker 1: like oh by the way, and I'm staying there at
Speaker 1: the side, like wait a minute, like you guys do
Speaker 1: know that this is the song that they came to
Speaker 1: hear and the fact that they had another forty to
Speaker 1: fifty minutes to go without any of their signature songs
Speaker 1: like was such a curious choice to me, but they
Speaker 1: sort of treated it like, we'll just make it our
Speaker 1: fifth song instead of like the encore or whatever.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, if I was elting John and I
Speaker 2: had I could play two hours of hits, I would
Speaker 2: have a problem, right. And then there's actually like Steely Dan,
Speaker 2: where you know, they haven't had really that many big
Speaker 2: hits on the radio, but every song's a hit. Oh well, man,
Speaker 2: you know, can't buy thrill in this early. But I'm
Speaker 2: saying they can play something.
Speaker 1: I know them for the filler. Actually, I know, like
Speaker 1: you know we we especially your first album, Like I
Speaker 1: thought half those songs were actual singles and hits. I
Speaker 1: didn't realize that only a few.
Speaker 2: But four of them were.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, but I identify arts based on their filler.
Speaker 1: Whatever makes it the radio makes it the radio. But
Speaker 1: for me, the true sign of an artist is what
Speaker 1: they do with the songs that aren't that. And so
Speaker 1: because equality is still high level to me, I just
Speaker 1: always I literally thought your entire first record was all
Speaker 1: singles that.
Speaker 2: God bless you to that I think that that you know,
Speaker 2: Dave Matthews is an artist who's kind of almost like,
Speaker 2: in my mind, almost like a deep cut artist because
Speaker 2: he's so esoteric. But I think for me, I'm kind
Speaker 2: of stuck with these songs that everybody knows. I wouldn't
Speaker 2: never not play them. I get a wonderful reaction to
Speaker 2: them that makes me feel great. But the only downside is,
Speaker 2: like I said, i'd say half two thirds of the
Speaker 2: audience in my opinion from what I can feel, they
Speaker 2: come for those songs, and then some people are receptive.
Speaker 2: But I'll start the show. I go learn to from
Speaker 2: James Taylor. James up with a blackboard and he'll say,
Speaker 2: here's the first set, here's the second, here's Bibe James,
Speaker 2: here's fire and Rain. But I'm also going to be
Speaker 2: playing some I just saw James. He said, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: be playing some songs for my new record, and he said,
Speaker 2: I know what you're saying is goddamn new songs, but
Speaker 2: he said I want to play them, and it was good,
Speaker 2: and I do that too. I'll say, listen, hopefully we're
Speaker 2: going to play all the songs you came to hear,
Speaker 2: but we're also going to play some deep cuts later.
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy them, because otherwise you wouldn't hear them.
Speaker 2: And you know, people they do try, but they're never
Speaker 2: getting the reaction to a deep cut that you would.
Speaker 2: But then again, some guy in the audience will yell
Speaker 2: out some obscure tune, you know. Okay, so, but and
Speaker 2: maybe I underestimate how much the audience knows about other
Speaker 2: songs and deep cuts just because of amun insecurity. But
Speaker 2: you know, I think it's all a blessing and a curse.
Speaker 1: You know, what is the best compliment a fan has
Speaker 1: given you about your music? And what's the best compliment
Speaker 1: that appear has given you about your music?
Speaker 2: Well, the best compliment a fan, let's see, or the
Speaker 2: most surprising one. Well, somebody said to me, this is
Speaker 2: a tune. I have a window album called Angry young Men,
Speaker 2: and it's about teenangs and stuff. And there's a line
Speaker 2: that says to come to maturity with some sense of dignity,
Speaker 2: and I really mean it about personal growth. But he said,
Speaker 2: you know that line in your song. He said, I
Speaker 2: know what it means, but I also think it applies
Speaker 2: to your career because you said you've managed to maintain
Speaker 2: your dignity throughout all these records you've made because you
Speaker 2: just you keep doing the best work you can and
Speaker 2: all this stuff. And I loved that comment. And then
Speaker 2: the nicest comment I heard from Maurice White, Rest of
Speaker 2: Soul It's starting Marri's White one day and I said,
Speaker 2: you know, vocally, I'm kind of ethnically challenged, you know,
Speaker 2: And Maurice said, man, it's not about that, man, I
Speaker 2: can feel it when you sing.
Speaker 1: True.
Speaker 2: And that was like very heavy for me for Maurice
Speaker 2: to say that to me. And I think what he
Speaker 2: was trying to say was, look, man, that stuff's cool,
Speaker 2: but like the important thing is can somebody feel when
Speaker 2: you're singing? And he said, I feel it when you sing? Man.
Speaker 2: That was probably one of them really took it to heart.
Speaker 2: That was pretty wonderful.
Speaker 1: So all right, so you're a Texas musician, but you're
Speaker 1: kind of the poster child of what we associate as
Speaker 1: the southern California right sound. What is traditionally Texan about
Speaker 1: your music or your songwriting that critics get wrong? What
Speaker 1: do you feel is in your Texas roots that is
Speaker 1: in your music?
Speaker 2: Well, I think right, like the wind is. Certainly it's
Speaker 2: sort of based on all these cowboy serials I used
Speaker 2: to watch, you know, and also living in San Antonio,
Speaker 2: there was an allure fascination with going into Mexico because
Speaker 2: when you were a kid, it was like debauchery and
Speaker 2: it was all the stuff you could got down there
Speaker 2: your parents didn't want you to do. You know, I
Speaker 2: could just get over to Mexico. You could drink tequila
Speaker 2: and you could do crazy shit. So but I'll admit that,
Speaker 2: you know, even in Austin, a lot of people because
Speaker 2: they moved to Austin pretty early on in sixty nine,
Speaker 2: you know, I was a fish out of water, you know,
Speaker 2: Austin some more of a blues roadhouse kind of country
Speaker 2: music kind of vibe. And so I never really fit
Speaker 2: in as far as my music. And of course I
Speaker 2: always identified, you know, with the Beach Boys in southern California,
Speaker 2: so Johnny Mitchell and all that stuff. And so I
Speaker 2: admit that I'm not your typical Texan kind of sounding artist.
Speaker 2: Was very influenced by Billy Gibbons as a guitarist, and
Speaker 2: Zzi's amazing, but you know, Texan is Texas is known
Speaker 2: for the Stevie Ray kind of vibe, and I think
Speaker 2: now in Texas. The problem is, if you go to
Speaker 2: a globe in Texas, you hear all these young guitar
Speaker 2: players who are trying to be Stevie Ray. And a
Speaker 2: friend of mine coined a great phrase that they're Stevie
Speaker 2: Ray vannabees, and you want to go, look, you're not
Speaker 2: You're not Stevie Ray and stop trying to be him,
Speaker 2: because there was only one Stevie Ray. But anyway, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm not your typical I don't really, except for Right
Speaker 2: at the Wind, which kind of has those roots. I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't know, I think that you're right. I'm kind
Speaker 2: of more of a southern California boy, you know, with
Speaker 2: what and I grew up you know, Jonny Mitchell, Dave Crosby,
Speaker 2: acoustic guitars. That's why the whole MTV video thing didn't
Speaker 2: really I didn't connect and resonate with that too well
Speaker 2: because it wasn't how I grew up. I grew up
Speaker 2: with songwriters.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say that because you didn't appear on
Speaker 1: your album covers or like rarely in your videos. Again
Speaker 1: in retrospect, especially with a song like right Like the
Speaker 1: Winner and sailing, Like if Stevie Wonder made videos for
Speaker 1: songs in the Key of Life, I'd be disappointed because
Speaker 1: I have the exact picture of, you know, whatever synaestiesia
Speaker 1: level that I have of what I think those songs are,
Speaker 1: as we all do with anything that we heard pre
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one. But knowing what you know now, would
Speaker 1: you have leaned into getting heavy into videos, knowing that
Speaker 1: you're probably the last artist that could pull the anonymous
Speaker 1: trick and reap in millions in sales? But retroactively, do
Speaker 1: you think that you would have played that card a
Speaker 1: little bit different?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, the truth of it is, you know,
Speaker 2: the video thing came along very much litt But I
Speaker 2: will say I think videos in general, at least early on,
Speaker 2: to me, they sort of obscured the lyrical landscape of
Speaker 2: somebody like Joni Mitchell. I don't want to see a
Speaker 2: Joni Mitchell video. You know, she's so brilliant that I
Speaker 2: want to just paint my own picture of my head
Speaker 2: for whatever she and I'd rediscover her lyrics. All tam
Speaker 2: Sam was steely down. I mean, the only video Donal
Speaker 2: ever made it was New Frontier, which he didn't play himself, right,
Speaker 2: But I'll admit. Look, the first album, that cover was
Speaker 2: painted by a drummer, Jimmy Newhouse, that I was working
Speaker 2: with at the time, and he showed it to me
Speaker 2: and said, I think this is what your music looked like.
Speaker 2: So I brought it to Warners and they did it.
Speaker 2: But I'll admit too, you know, I was overweight, I
Speaker 2: certainly do look like Brad Pitt, and so I was
Speaker 2: pretty self conscious, and so I wasn't that interested in
Speaker 2: putting my picture on the cover.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: In fact, I remember it at Howard Sterns show. Robin said,
Speaker 2: you know, she made some crack about the fact that
Speaker 2: she loved my voice, but she said, I was disappointed
Speaker 2: when I saw you. I thought you'd looked like Kenny Loggins.
Speaker 1: Oh god.
Speaker 2: And Howard jumped to my defense, you know, but uh
Speaker 2: but anyway, so I think part of it's that was
Speaker 2: just my being self conscious about my own appearance that
Speaker 2: I didn't really you know, I look like Rick Springfield
Speaker 2: or something. I probably would have put a picture everywhere,
Speaker 2: but so and then the video thing, I just physically
Speaker 2: wasn't used to doing that kind of thing, and it
Speaker 2: wasn't Also what I was drawn to because the artists
Speaker 2: that I reveal, like Randy Newman, you know, Jony uh They,
Speaker 2: Tom Waits. You know, Tom's much more theatrical now. But
Speaker 2: you know, it just it wasn't ever present at that point,
Speaker 2: so I didn't acclimate to it.
Speaker 1: What was your relationship with the Warnicker and Austin like
Speaker 1: the Warner Brothers family during that time period.
Speaker 2: Well, Michael Aston most the one that signed me. He
Speaker 2: a kind of an interesting story real quick. I was
Speaker 2: sending my demos and from Texas. You know, I'd make
Speaker 2: these demos in the studio and I would send it
Speaker 2: to Warner Brothers. And I looked in the Billboard magazine
Speaker 2: because I didn't anything about an R. I didn't anything
Speaker 2: about that stuff. I looked in there and there was
Speaker 2: Moe Austin, chairman of the board, and then below him
Speaker 2: was David Berson, who was his assistant. So I said, okay,
Speaker 2: I'll send my tape to David Berson. I did anything
Speaker 2: about an R. Lenny Worthy couple. I send my tape
Speaker 2: to David person who'd never gotten a tape. He was
Speaker 2: a lawyer in Moe's office, okay, and he'd never gotten
Speaker 2: a tape from anybody. So he's going to have lunch
Speaker 2: with Lenny worker that day, and he said, hey, check
Speaker 2: this tape out I got in the mail. Lenny said,
Speaker 2: give me a break, I'm at lunch. Puts it in
Speaker 2: and Lenny says, you know what, I kind of like
Speaker 2: his voice. Give it to me. And that's how it
Speaker 2: all got started. To give it to Michael Austin to
Speaker 2: check it out, and then it all and Michael ended
Speaker 2: up signing me. But I actually the sertatipitous nature of it.
Speaker 2: I sent my tape to the wrong guy, and Lenny
Speaker 2: told me at the time they were not accepting any
Speaker 2: outside material unless it came from a known producer of somebody.
Speaker 2: So he said, chances are your tape would have been
Speaker 2: putting an envelope and sent back to you. Thanks, no thanks,
Speaker 2: But because you sent it to the wrong guy and
Speaker 2: he played it for me, then you got heard and
Speaker 2: we started a dialogue. But now I was very close
Speaker 2: with Russ and Lenny, and I'm still close with all
Speaker 2: of them. Michael, I saw Michael recently lost his house
Speaker 2: in Pelsas for Sadley, but yeah, yeah, those guys were
Speaker 2: the guys at the time, you know, they were producing
Speaker 2: Brandy and Ricky Lee and all that. And I always
Speaker 2: wanted to be on Warner Brothers because you know, they
Speaker 2: had Ben Morrison and Joni and they the artist. They
Speaker 2: seemed like more of a naturally, the whole building was
Speaker 2: all wood, and it was a different vibe than MCA
Speaker 2: or one of the big corporate companies. So but no, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's how it all went down for me. Man, I
Speaker 2: sent my tape to the wrong guy.
Speaker 1: So there was a time period in which a record
Speaker 1: label felt like home and we're nurturing and you could
Speaker 1: go to those guys and like, when's your version of
Speaker 1: the Mason Dixon line of suddenly this just became a
Speaker 1: corporation and suits without I always heard that Warner Brothers
Speaker 1: was like a home.
Speaker 2: It was, and I think based on what I saw
Speaker 2: from other companies, you know, not to pick on Memsia
Speaker 2: of these more corporate well, you know, Napster probably was
Speaker 2: the beginning of kind of all that. But I'll say that, like,
Speaker 2: you know, Moe started Repriets with Frank Sinatra, and Moe's
Speaker 2: was a record guy, you know, from the beginning, and
Speaker 2: so there was a different feel there. I mean, I
Speaker 2: think that there was a true love of music there,
Speaker 2: and so it was a very different vibe of I
Speaker 2: met a lot of people like I was at Warner
Speaker 2: Brothers in New York and met Vegan, you know, so
Speaker 2: there was it was a camaraderie there. Anyway, answer your question,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean I will say one thing.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm seventy five soon. And there was a
Speaker 2: cycle of life back then. People talk about the record companies.
Speaker 2: Yes they charged too much for CDs. Granted they could
Speaker 2: have sold for five bucks. But regardless, I sold ten
Speaker 2: million records and Warners probably made a hundred million dollars
Speaker 2: whatever and whatever I made. But there was a cycle
Speaker 2: to life. You know, you wrote songs, you went in
Speaker 2: the studio at their expense, with producers, You made a record,
Speaker 2: went out on the road, went to record stores and
Speaker 2: did in stores, went to the radio. There was any
Speaker 2: way back into the studio. There was a cycle of
Speaker 2: life back then to this whole thing, and you were
Speaker 2: not responsible for a lot of it. Didn't have to
Speaker 2: come up with the money, didn't have to promote their record,
Speaker 2: didn't have to do all this stuff. So I don't
Speaker 2: begrudge them for the money they made. Plus it was
Speaker 2: kind of sweet because you just wrote music and toured
Speaker 2: and played. Now whether granted there's a lot of advantages
Speaker 2: the YouTube and pro tools and all this stuff you
Speaker 2: can do in your house, but promoting yourself, it's all
Speaker 2: left up to you, and so I lament the loss
Speaker 2: of all that. It was a pretty cool model.
Speaker 1: So how do you How did you wind up choosing
Speaker 1: the personnel for your first album and subsequently, I mean
Speaker 1: they worked on at least the first foard like Michael
Speaker 1: uh oh.
Speaker 2: Michael Lomarti and was just signed as a staff producer.
Speaker 1: Oh so he see, I didn't come along at a
Speaker 1: time in which like house producers, right produced, like so
Speaker 1: Russ Titlement was also.
Speaker 2: Staff producer Lenny Warnicker Ted Temple, So this is why, right,
Speaker 2: and so Michael had been you know, played Longinson Messina
Speaker 2: and he's from Chicago and Michael and Marty and he
Speaker 2: has just been signed. And then Michael Austin brought me
Speaker 2: to Warner Bros. For the meeting. I was actually kind
Speaker 2: of a dick. He introduced me to know Marty and
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, what's up? And I was looking
Speaker 2: around for Ted Templemanute Gary Katz around who's right.
Speaker 1: Right, right?
Speaker 2: And so finally Michael Austin could tell the meeting was
Speaker 2: not going well, and he said, you know, Michael and
Speaker 2: Marty and played on a lot of Steely dance stuff.
Speaker 2: And I said, because he knew I was Steely Frisson,
Speaker 2: really like what Michael and Michael and Marty and humbly said,
Speaker 2: well like everything you know? So this this is great,
Speaker 2: so I said, And so I said, you know, I
Speaker 2: just come from Texas and I don't know anything. So
Speaker 2: I said to him, you know Larry Carlton and he goes, yeah, sure.
Speaker 2: I said, can you get in to plan my record?
Speaker 2: And he said sure? And I said, you know, he
Speaker 2: doesn't do sessions anymore, he's like an artist now and
Speaker 2: he said no, but I know very pretty well. I
Speaker 2: think I can play Brik. So here's the deal. If
Speaker 2: you can get Larry Carlton to plan my record, you
Speaker 2: can produce my record. And that was the agreement that
Speaker 2: I made that day. Okay, and later on years later,
Speaker 2: when I told Carlton the story said, I should have
Speaker 2: been getting points.
Speaker 1: It came in hot. Okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but and then so but the original band they
Speaker 2: were from Texas. They were the original band that I
Speaker 2: that I formed back in Texas, and they played on
Speaker 2: the first record, and uh one tune think of Laura
Speaker 2: on the second record. But you know, Marty and was
Speaker 2: used to Steely Dan and used to session musicians. So
Speaker 2: the second record we went with Steve gadd Nae Bilberril
Speaker 2: Senior and we started going down that road and Toto
Speaker 2: and all those people, so we started going there, you know.
Speaker 2: But that was the model I always dreamt of. You know,
Speaker 2: Steely's always been my sort of template for the kind
Speaker 2: of records I wanted to make. So when I had
Speaker 2: the opportunity to play with Gad and these guys, when
Speaker 2: I was thrilled.
Speaker 1: Oh man, and there, Carl, did you at any point
Speaker 1: just have a video camera handy like taping your sessions?
Speaker 2: Just to I think that. I don't think it was
Speaker 2: video cameras then there was. There was I think the polaroids. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but no, but it was it was I was my
Speaker 2: own fly on the wall because it was I started
Speaker 2: out as a you know originally, and and I believe me,
Speaker 2: all these guys I worked with, like Jeff and Steve
Speaker 2: and Vinnie and all these guys, I mean just fantastic players.
Speaker 2: It was kind of a dream come true because I
Speaker 2: was kind of, like I said, living the Steely dream.
Speaker 2: I was working with all the same musicians that they
Speaker 2: worked with, and I wanted to make those kind of records.
Speaker 2: I wanted to make that kind of sophisticated pop.
Speaker 1: You know. Okay, now I feel like such an imposter,
Speaker 1: but like my guitar player, Kirk is living in my
Speaker 1: head right now.
Speaker 2: It's like love him.
Speaker 1: You never asked you as guitarist, like what gear they like,
Speaker 1: because people want to know, like what were you using?
Speaker 1: What was your your acts of choice for that particular
Speaker 1: album to get that clean sound.
Speaker 2: Well, stratt, you know, certainly a strat for those days,
Speaker 2: and I think it was playing fenders, you know, it
Speaker 2: was not that remarkable strat fenders and I think that,
Speaker 2: you know, my like I said, my my guitar heroes
Speaker 2: were you know, Gibbons and Jeff Beck and you know,
Speaker 2: people like that, Larry Carlton. But yeah, I've always been
Speaker 2: a gearhead, but yeah, it was it was more of
Speaker 2: the production style of getting these players in the studio
Speaker 2: who kind of make the magic. You know, you bring
Speaker 2: in a tune with a chart and they expound on
Speaker 2: that harmonically, you know, they bring a thing to it,
Speaker 2: like even Fagan. I think Donald plays well, but I
Speaker 2: think Greg fill gains Can, Marty and these guys can
Speaker 2: you know, spread their fingers bigger than Olascar Peterson style, right,
Speaker 2: And so that's one of the things I loved about
Speaker 2: what Amartian did for the music is playing, but also
Speaker 2: the string arrangements and everything like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, like for songwriting sessions
Speaker 1: because of Michael's mastery of keyboards and just the way
Speaker 1: he thinks in terms of chord progressions and whatnot, how
Speaker 1: did that open up your world as far as ideas
Speaker 1: you had in your head, Because I mean I've heard
Speaker 1: the demos of the stuff you did. So the demos
Speaker 1: that you did, did you do those on your own?
Speaker 2: Well, get them on my own, and I think they're
Speaker 2: very I said in my box set, I think they're
Speaker 2: very The bones are there, you know, the bones are
Speaker 2: there that we a Marty and of course played, He
Speaker 2: did the string arrangements, He did things to the music
Speaker 2: to make it, you know, more sophisticated. But the bones
Speaker 2: on sailing right out the when those those tunes, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, we had such a long way to go
Speaker 2: in all those parts because singing him but but A
Speaker 2: Martian brought some wonderful things to it. And I think
Speaker 2: for me at one moment with a Marty that was
Speaker 2: funny was he's probably the most talented cat I've ever
Speaker 2: worked with. He's just incredibly powerful. But he at one
Speaker 2: point he was second record. I think he was doing
Speaker 2: some takedowns. I was playing him a new tune. He
Speaker 2: was doing some takedowns and I noticed he's writing ahead
Speaker 2: of what I'm playing for him really, and I was like,
Speaker 2: what the fuck? Man? You know I didn't play that
Speaker 2: cord yet He goes, well, I mean I know your
Speaker 2: style harmonically, so I just figured monitor and I said, well, man,
Speaker 2: I feel like I kind of a chump here. But
Speaker 2: but you know, he he's he's so brilliant that he
Speaker 2: could do that. But no, he brought a lot, a
Speaker 2: lot to the music. And Uh. In fact, the on Sailing,
Speaker 2: the solo song was written and we had a synth
Speaker 2: solo on it, on the solo and Sailing, and I
Speaker 2: came back to the studio after being at dinner or
Speaker 2: something and Michael was seen the lights for him singing
Speaker 2: at the Grand piano and he said, I've got someone
Speaker 2: want you to hear. He had played the solo to Sailing,
Speaker 2: you know, and it was exquisite. But I was so
Speaker 2: wrapped into the Steely Dan thing that he said, and
Speaker 2: it was it was really emotional for him. He was
Speaker 2: very proud of it, and he said, and deservedly so.
Speaker 2: But he said, what do you think? And I said
Speaker 2: it's pretty beautiful. But I said, I think there's a
Speaker 2: note in the second bar that's a little late. And
Speaker 2: he said what And I said, I mean Steely Dan
Speaker 2: would never let that go. And he just went, you
Speaker 2: know what, man, I am so I am so sick
Speaker 2: of hearing about Steely Dan. And he got his portion left,
Speaker 2: you know, and he'd wait, yeah, he just said, you
Speaker 2: know what, man, if you don't get And of course
Speaker 2: I listened to it a few times and when of
Speaker 2: course it's exquisite, perfect, but I was so wrapped up
Speaker 2: in the perfection of how Donald Walter worked that it
Speaker 2: was like and he done all those records.
Speaker 1: Were you afraid of being too pristine?
Speaker 2: No, the more pristine the better. And of course people
Speaker 2: say Steely's too sterile and all that stuff. I hear
Speaker 2: those arguments. But for me, I mean they're as first
Speaker 2: of pop record making at the time, and even it
Speaker 2: holds up. I mean they're the masters that in my opinion, can.
Speaker 1: You rank your top five steal the albums? Because the
Speaker 1: thing is, I know that entire catalog, but it's not
Speaker 1: because I put it on the record and listen to it.
Speaker 1: I just happen to be at a place where I'll
Speaker 1: catch this verse of this bar. Maybe I'll be on
Speaker 1: the airplane. Remember they used to curate the music for
Speaker 1: you with those little plastic headphones. You hear a song
Speaker 1: or whatever. I know all the songs.
Speaker 2: Like.
Speaker 1: A great example is uh, it's so hard to pronounce
Speaker 1: a lot of yeah votasofa I could never say that word.
Speaker 1: What is it again?
Speaker 2: Bots means like a guru, you know?
Speaker 1: All right? So I think, for one, I'm a weird
Speaker 1: kid that in a three thousand album household there be
Speaker 1: a bunch of records that had scary looking covers. To me,
Speaker 1: so the Royal Scam album covered this is probably why
Speaker 1: I got turned off the silly Dan The Royal Scam
Speaker 1: album covered with the buildings with things. Nah, I couldn't
Speaker 1: do that, so I would hide certain records that were
Speaker 1: scary to me, either the bottom of the pile or
Speaker 1: like away in the household, and Royal Scam was one
Speaker 1: of those things. Which was weird because once we got
Speaker 1: into the sampling age and everyone's praising Conye for this,
Speaker 1: you know, genius level sampling and steely damn record, and
Speaker 1: I'm realizing that too, these things came from Royal Scam.
Speaker 1: I was like, damn, Like I did myself a deserve
Speaker 1: is not studying this record because I was scared of
Speaker 1: the album cover.
Speaker 2: Yeah, kids, Charlot Man on that record score. So my
Speaker 2: best top five stuff can't buy thrill met all of them.
Speaker 2: Pretzel logic, you know, Royal Scam.
Speaker 1: Or Katy, what's your number? What's your fifth record?
Speaker 2: Katie Laude? Asia? Of course Asia?
Speaker 1: You know so Asia is number four?
Speaker 2: Well it's a tough one, man. You're uh, Asia?
Speaker 1: All right? You could save one album from their catalog?
Speaker 1: What is it They're going to give you permission to
Speaker 1: curate a box set for? Just what's the album that
Speaker 1: you want to dive into the most?
Speaker 2: Well, probably Asia only because I think for all of us,
Speaker 2: that's when the big shift moved, when they started to
Speaker 2: really go into the jazz idiom thing, us jazz players
Speaker 2: and all that stuff, and it kind of blew up.
Speaker 2: But it's mind when they and They'll said the same thing,
Speaker 2: when they started to really let that influence come out,
Speaker 2: their influences from the jazz era. So I think it's
Speaker 2: an incredibly gorgeous record. You know, the cover was painted
Speaker 2: by that comedian Phil Hartman.
Speaker 1: I learned this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but but no, I think Asia's you know,
Speaker 2: it's Joni. I read something recently. She loves Galcho and
Speaker 2: Asia both. She just loved and loves them both, and
Speaker 2: she she really has a lot of respect for them.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think, I mean all this the later
Speaker 2: all the records they've made then of course kamic here
Speaker 2: and some of the stuff they did later it was
Speaker 2: more groove stuff. But yeah, and then Nightfly when Walter
Speaker 2: was not doing well. I was in the studio when
Speaker 2: they were.
Speaker 1: Always wondered why that wasn't a Steely Dan record as
Speaker 1: opposed to a Fagan solo record.
Speaker 2: Well, Walter, to my knowledge, Walter was you know, using
Speaker 2: whatever crossing the street and near was sit by a
Speaker 2: cab leg broken pretty bad. He was in the hospital
Speaker 2: for like a year, so during that time they had
Speaker 2: started Gaucho and Donald finished Gaucho on his own. And
Speaker 2: I actually got to go in the studio when they
Speaker 2: were when Donald's working on Gaucho. And then after that,
Speaker 2: you know, Donald made Nightfly just because Walter was not around,
Speaker 2: so he made a solo record and that's the story
Speaker 2: I heard. But and then I got to be in
Speaker 2: the studio in New York when he was doing and
Speaker 2: we're going on a new Frontier or something, so it
Speaker 2: was pretty cool.
Speaker 1: But you have to witness that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Donald, I'd be up with New Frontier. I
Speaker 2: was down there for that. Also, Roger Nichols's engineer was a
Speaker 2: good friend of mine, and Gary would Katz would have
Speaker 2: be down sometimes and Donald was fine with it. But
Speaker 2: but yeah, I think Gaucho Donald finished on his own,
Speaker 2: and then Nightfly he did. But yeah, it was because
Speaker 2: Walter wasn't doing well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when so legendary drummer James Gatson had passed away
Speaker 1: earlier yes year, and I revisited all of his session
Speaker 1: work and you know, of course I know that he
Speaker 1: is on Nightfly. Like for me, I will say, like
Speaker 1: ig wise, if I had to choose a soundtrack for
Speaker 1: like a nonspecific but a very happy moment in my life.
Speaker 1: Like I don't know what it was about what was
Speaker 1: happening in November December of eighty two, seventh grade, but
Speaker 1: every time I hear that song, like it takes me back.
Speaker 1: And the thing is is that that wasn't a rosy
Speaker 1: picture of my life. But I think the purpose of
Speaker 1: music is to appear in your life as the highlight
Speaker 1: to an otherwise drab and dreary time. So like for
Speaker 1: me hearing hearing those records, especially with New Frontier and
Speaker 1: everything like that.
Speaker 2: That, yeah, it was just you know, Greg filling Gains
Speaker 2: up until just very recently he was in Toto, working
Speaker 2: with Toto. Now I think he's playing with Sammy Hagar.
Speaker 2: But anyway, Greg played on my GUI and uh no,
Speaker 2: it's funny with them because you know, you're right, it's
Speaker 2: such a wonderful field to that tune. And yet you know,
Speaker 2: most of the time you see Donald, he doesn't look
Speaker 2: like the happiest guy. And I just saw a funny
Speaker 2: thing about Steely DWN the ten funniest things they ever said,
Speaker 2: and one of them was Walter was interviewed and they said,
Speaker 2: do you guys have any hobbies or pastimes, and Walter
Speaker 2: said brooding. Brooding is a big one, which I loved.
Speaker 1: How did you wind up being friends with them?
Speaker 2: Because well, I can't say so. Well, I can't say
Speaker 2: I'm really friends with Donald. I mean, we're aint. He's
Speaker 2: like so many people in this business. I know, not
Speaker 2: like something like Michael McDonald I'm very close to. But
Speaker 2: Donald's an acquaintance. You know, we're friendly when I see him.
Speaker 2: But I met him years ago at Warner brother But
Speaker 2: you know, he's not the most at least in my experience,
Speaker 2: not the warmest. Yeah, warm and fuzzy. He's not that
Speaker 2: easy to get to talk to. Walter was more affable.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean, I'm just such an awe the guy.
Speaker 2: But I've been, you know, fortunate to be. I got
Speaker 2: invited down with my cats to those two sessions and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. He's actually wonderful. It's just you know,
Speaker 2: he's not a big talker. You know, he doesn't really
Speaker 2: gives you one word answers or stuffing that maybe not
Speaker 2: to other people he knows real well.
Speaker 1: But you know, I think in I forget the album
Speaker 1: that they worked on in the nineties, but cats called
Speaker 1: me in if I'm doing more than three takes, then
Speaker 1: something's wrong. You know, normally I can nail what you
Speaker 1: want in two takes. I think I got out there
Speaker 1: in two hours, right, They were like, okay, let's do
Speaker 1: it again. I think they have this theory where it's
Speaker 1: like they want you to be not so studied but
Speaker 1: like muscle memory. And I think by that point in
Speaker 1: ninety four, I was so helping on being such a
Speaker 1: perfectionist metronome, and they kept trying to get me like
Speaker 1: what you know, like play looser, you know, play more
Speaker 1: purple or yeah, I'd get finally when I like when
Speaker 1: I finally got to DiAngelo, who you know, the magic
Speaker 1: of playing with DiAngelo was you know, the sloppier you are,
Speaker 1: the more. But in my mind, I'm thinking of like
Speaker 1: all the drummers in all city high school and obstacles
Speaker 1: I had to like overcome as far as like technique
Speaker 1: and especially now, like you know, musicians are so help
Speaker 1: bent on look mino hands and this technique I have
Speaker 1: and whatever. So just to undo the perfection and just.
Speaker 2: If you should have doctor Bernard pretty for you went
Speaker 2: to do the session because you know when Bernard did
Speaker 2: Babylon Sisters. Michael was on the date, so was Chuck Raindy,
Speaker 2: and Michael told me that, oh wasn't there, but Michael
Speaker 2: told me that first take. Bernard got up and walked out,
Speaker 2: said I got my part and already, and then Chuck
Speaker 2: Rady looked at each other and like, no one walks
Speaker 2: out on Steely Dan. So then Donald Walter listened to
Speaker 2: the board and said he's right, and he got first take.
Speaker 2: So you got to have his Bravados.
Speaker 1: Party did a session for my dad once and my
Speaker 1: dad introduced me to him. I think it was like
Speaker 1: two or three and my dad says, come here, he says,
Speaker 1: do you know this is I was like no, and
Speaker 1: he's Bernard Party. He's like, Bernard, tell me how do
Speaker 1: you keep food on the table? And Bernard's like the
Speaker 1: two and the four and I didn't understand what that meant.
Speaker 1: But basically, the more straight ahead you are not fancy.
Speaker 2: Then well of course he you know, he did the
Speaker 2: famous pretty shuffle, which.
Speaker 1: Is yes, nothing but Grace notes right exactly, all right.
Speaker 1: So you paint this picture of an outlaw on the
Speaker 1: run and whatever headed for the border? Did you base
Speaker 1: that character on a movie that you saw or a
Speaker 1: dream that that you had, Like, what, what was the
Speaker 1: basis of your outlaw character?
Speaker 2: For well, when I was my dad was a doctor
Speaker 2: in the army, So back then you go to the
Speaker 2: movies for twenty five cents. So we'd go to the
Speaker 2: movie theater on the base and they would have these
Speaker 2: cowboy serials like The Lone Ranger or Hoplng Cassidy and
Speaker 2: these kind of guys, and they were always chasing the outlaw,
Speaker 2: you know, and trying to catch them before he made
Speaker 2: it to Mexico. And even though they never showed what
Speaker 2: went on there, you know, the rumors grew and so
Speaker 2: it was just like it was, like said Teenagster, the
Speaker 2: anarchism of just escaping your parents' control. So Mexico became
Speaker 2: this mystical world of like debauchery, that you could go
Speaker 2: down there and drink and you could do stuff you
Speaker 2: know that your parents would hate. So that's kind of
Speaker 2: what it's about. If I could just make it at
Speaker 2: the border in Mexico, like the Onion. The Onion some
Speaker 2: years ago had a thing it said Christopher Cross finally
Speaker 2: made it to the border of Mexico. But interesting story
Speaker 2: for you is I don't know I ever told this on
Speaker 2: a thing. So we used to play the club, you know,
Speaker 2: covers and stuff like that, and I have to tell
Speaker 2: McCartney this unless he checked your bucket. I don't think
Speaker 2: I ever told Paul. But we were doing nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: five the Wings tune, and we you know, we played
Speaker 2: four or five hours and nights. He had extend tunes
Speaker 2: and all this stuff as a dance floor. So we're
Speaker 2: playing nineteen eighty five. It's a C minor. So we're
Speaker 2: playing nineteen five getting into a jam and people are dancing.
Speaker 2: And I started doing that and people I noticed that
Speaker 2: they were like really getting into it, you know, and
Speaker 2: it was another level of energy.
Speaker 1: Nineteen eighty five. That's where the inspiration for that center
Speaker 1: around came from.
Speaker 2: So I took that part and I went, you know,
Speaker 2: there's something about this that's got the thing. So then
Speaker 2: I wrote the tune around that. I had that part first,
Speaker 2: and then I wrote the verses.
Speaker 1: Damn.
Speaker 2: And I don't think I've ever told Paul that. He's
Speaker 2: probably gonna say I should have got a royalties. He
Speaker 2: is enough royaltieth, But no, that's it. The seat of
Speaker 2: the song came from my Tenay McCartney, I ripped them off.
Speaker 1: I love that turn around man, wow.
Speaker 2: And but I had that and then I had to
Speaker 2: build a song around it. And then of course I
Speaker 2: mentioned the doc, the yacht rock doc, that I had
Speaker 2: the music all finally finished and we're driving down to
Speaker 2: you know, from Houston or gig descent to Austin. When
Speaker 2: I went to record the thing. That's when I said
Speaker 2: to the doc, which I got all this bad stuff
Speaker 2: whereas I took a hit acid and were in the
Speaker 2: car and I wrote the lyrics on the way down to.
Speaker 1: Austin that made you even cooler than me, Like, well.
Speaker 2: Yes, a couple of these guys you probably know them
Speaker 2: that they were on they have some kind of podcast
Speaker 2: thing and my daughter sent it to me, said these
Speaker 2: guys are really cool and they're like yeah, man, all right,
Speaker 2: Christopher Cross so weed, you know, and they were like
Speaker 2: totally up. Well, your generation maybe, well, but for my generation.
Speaker 1: I'm not. There's nothing more majority about me at all,
Speaker 1: like you know, when you have that magic part. And
Speaker 1: this is what I always wanted to know about song structuring,
Speaker 1: because for my world, when we're mining for gold, especially
Speaker 1: in terms of where classic hip hop was where a
Speaker 1: lot of the music was derived from sampling from other records.
Speaker 1: You're always searching for the perfect four bars or the
Speaker 1: perfect eight bars to make your foundation. When you have
Speaker 1: a magical idea that's based on that, why didn't you
Speaker 1: make that the main course? Now, granted, the way the
Speaker 1: song is structured now Chef's kiss, I wouldn't change a
Speaker 1: thing like that coming at the end made it more magic.
Speaker 1: But at one point, were you trying to build the
Speaker 1: song just around that turnaround?
Speaker 2: No, I felt it was kind of an instrumental bridge.
Speaker 1: I did, so you knew that that's your your victory
Speaker 1: lap and you have to work backwards, right.
Speaker 2: And also from all my other song writing influences, you know,
Speaker 2: I had vers in Beatles. Hey, you know a BA
Speaker 2: B you know how to have a chorus and a
Speaker 2: verse and a chorus and stuff like that, and well
Speaker 2: that's ABC. Yeah, well well it is, well, got such
Speaker 2: a long way to go. It's sort of the chorus.
Speaker 2: But but no, like was sailing as an example, like
Speaker 2: I was sitting in my kitchen.
Speaker 1: Oh damn, see, I always thought that is the bridge.
Speaker 2: No, the chorus has got such a long way to go,
Speaker 2: that's the chorus and the bridge is that okay, you
Speaker 2: know what, it's.
Speaker 1: You know what.
Speaker 2: Quest it's semantics, man, whatever you call it. You're the boss,
Speaker 2: you know whatever. No to me, got such a long
Speaker 2: way to go? It's the chorus and then the bridge
Speaker 2: is about it.
Speaker 1: Up part Yeah, but then you return to the a
Speaker 1: part to say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would go to another verse, but you know, ah.
Speaker 1: Damn, it's okay. So weird that we're seeing the song structure.
Speaker 2: In a word, pretty interesting. I kind of dig it.
Speaker 1: The roots like you right now, because the roots and
Speaker 1: I argue like this where we'll battle over where's the one?
Speaker 1: And of course it's my band, so I get you know,
Speaker 1: House Rulves. But God, now that you put that in
Speaker 1: my head because in my mind I tend to make
Speaker 1: these little short list or whatever, and in my mind
Speaker 1: I love right like the wind because I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: the song is so strong that even his bridge is
Speaker 1: stronger than the chorus, Like the chorus doesn't exist because
Speaker 1: his bridge just nails it. But you see that, Okay,
Speaker 1: If that's the case, then or what would you called
Speaker 1: the song? Why'd you call it a long way to go?
Speaker 2: Well? Because I'm just a genius but.
Speaker 1: No, don't you love the nerve of me trying.
Speaker 2: To I think, Okay, check it out. I think it's interesting.
Speaker 2: I wish's call Mike Joll say okay, when run like
Speaker 2: the Wind, like, what do you think the chorus is?
Speaker 2: And I've never thought this is you bring something whole new.
Speaker 2: I think asking you're musician friends, like right like the wind,
Speaker 2: what's the chorus? And see what they say. I could
Speaker 2: be completely mistaken. I've been thinking about my whole career.
Speaker 1: Wow, this is always thought that the verses of the
Speaker 1: verse and then the first change in the first change
Speaker 1: in the song is a bridge that's going to lead
Speaker 1: us to a destination which is so all ride like
Speaker 1: the wind, right like the wind, which isn't It's.
Speaker 2: Kind of a reprieve. But I think and I got
Speaker 2: a long way to go, such a long big that's
Speaker 2: the chorus.
Speaker 1: Okay, I mean, let's v on this kid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do I know? I only wrote the song, but.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna let you have this. But in my mind, no.
Speaker 2: I think you should. I think you should ask. I
Speaker 2: remember one of the great things that that mean was
Speaker 2: Jimmy Jaan Terry Lewis told me that they were in
Speaker 2: the car and right like the wind came on, they
Speaker 2: pulled over into a parking lot.
Speaker 1: Yo. They always whenever song comes over, they always pull over.
Speaker 2: And they were telling me they pulled up over the
Speaker 2: parking lot and turn it up really loud, and Jimmy
Speaker 2: Terry was saying, what the fuck is this? You know,
Speaker 2: because they said the whole thing with the strings and
Speaker 2: all that stuff, just as producers they were checking it out.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I don't know, we know what seriously was
Speaker 2: sailing Like Joni Mitchell uses of modal tunings because she
Speaker 2: had polio as a child and all that, so I
Speaker 2: got all that from her, the tuning thing, so sailings
Speaker 2: in a modal tuning. And when I wrote that song,
Speaker 2: and that's why this sort of mystical thing of the
Speaker 2: stuff gets beamed down, I don't completely disagree because I'm
Speaker 2: sitting around just when I started playing that data at
Speaker 2: a riff and out of the blue, I just sang
Speaker 2: the first verse and chorus just unsolicited. So then I
Speaker 2: had the verse, verse and the chorus. So then I
Speaker 2: started writing with a pen and paper, like it's not
Speaker 2: Farda Never never Land all that stuff. But I did
Speaker 2: not have any kind of a bridge. I had this
Speaker 2: versus and choruses for two years quest because it's in
Speaker 2: a modal it can get very linear and sort of stagnant,
Speaker 2: and so it took me about two years to come
Speaker 2: up with the bridge, the piano solo part, which changes
Speaker 2: keys and everything to lift it out of the modality
Speaker 2: of the modal tuning thing, because sometimes moddal tunings are
Speaker 2: kind of drone and all that. So, yeah, the whole
Speaker 2: process of this is pretty interesting because but the initial
Speaker 2: part of sailing, I got to say, I don't argue
Speaker 2: that I don't know where it came from, and I'm
Speaker 2: not one of those kind of guys. But it came
Speaker 2: out of nowhere. I just sang, it's not far down
Speaker 2: to Paradi at least it's not familiar.
Speaker 1: Win is right.
Speaker 2: Literally just unsolicited it August and then the chorus and
Speaker 2: all without thinking about it.
Speaker 1: During this period. What are your weapons of choices? Because oftentimes,
Speaker 1: and I asked this a lot of songwriters, especially now
Speaker 1: with the iPhones, when I get an idea and I'm alone,
Speaker 1: I will baseline, okay, first guitar line, rhythm, guitar part,
Speaker 1: and then I'll return to it four days later. And
Speaker 1: it is all just gibberish, and I never how do
Speaker 1: you document when something hits you or do you just suffer?
Speaker 2: Well, when I got up, when I came up with
Speaker 2: the verse and chorus part, I got up off the linoleum,
Speaker 2: sure it was on, and just went, wow, that is
Speaker 2: that's something there that I got something. I'm wanted something
Speaker 2: here with this, And then I just kept playing and
Speaker 2: planet planet Now. Sometimes you know, I'll do a little chart,
Speaker 2: kind of write a little chart of the chords and
Speaker 2: stuff like that.
Speaker 1: I forgot about that part again, you get actually no, we.
Speaker 2: Had no way to record and that kind of stuff
Speaker 2: and nothing like that. But no, you just play it
Speaker 2: repetitively to you. And of course I was sober at
Speaker 2: the moment, but usually with me if I was high
Speaker 2: or something and wrote a song that I thought it
Speaker 2: was brilliant. The next day when I wake up and
Speaker 2: listened to it, and I went, this is all you know,
Speaker 2: I think that happens to a lot of people.
Speaker 1: So not enough. It's made about you just having a
Speaker 1: world class voice and the beauty and the tone of
Speaker 1: your voice. The guitar solo in right like the wind.
Speaker 1: You did the.
Speaker 2: Honors I did yes.
Speaker 1: However, I mean, you had access to Graden Lucifer, like,
Speaker 1: you know, all the aces of that particular moment. What
Speaker 1: was the decision in having you nailing the guitar solo?
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not really sure. Maybe o'martian said, hey,
Speaker 2: you should play a solo on something, you know, because
Speaker 2: I was so enamored by Jay and Larrying all these people.
Speaker 2: I mean, with the second record with Steve Luke atther
Speaker 2: when he played some solos on stuff, and of course
Speaker 2: Eric Johnson was on the first record. A lot of
Speaker 2: those guys encouraged me to kind of, you know, how
Speaker 2: you should play something. But I don't know. I think
Speaker 2: maybe Omartian said, hey, you should play a guitar solo
Speaker 2: on something. But I'm not really sure how that all
Speaker 2: went down, but I played it. But interestingly, you know,
Speaker 2: Biato just did a show about this is the greatest
Speaker 2: guitar solo you never heard, because it's kind of buried
Speaker 2: in a wall of sound, but it sticks with you.
Speaker 2: But so he did a thing where he soloed it
Speaker 2: and then he did everything about it, and you know,
Speaker 2: I thought it was really nice, but I didn't think
Speaker 2: too much about it. But I was so enamored by
Speaker 2: you know, Eric Johnson who I grew up with, and
Speaker 2: all these guitar players that I just wanted them to
Speaker 2: do everything. You know. It was like they're so great.
Speaker 2: But I think encouragement. Larry may have said to me,
Speaker 2: hey man, you know you should play something, you know,
Speaker 2: So they were happy to do the session work. But
Speaker 2: they were all very supportive about me planned. But yeah,
Speaker 2: that's one of those that just and also it's probably
Speaker 2: the most suited to my style, you know. And uh
Speaker 2: and I told you my early influences for certainly Billy Gibbons,
Speaker 2: but you know Jeff Beck and Desuals.
Speaker 1: Now, I don't know if this is who who engineered
Speaker 1: the first album.
Speaker 2: I got named Chet Himes, great great engineer.
Speaker 1: What else didst Way?
Speaker 2: He didn't do much else. He he did that and
Speaker 2: kind of struggled with some substance stuff, and then he
Speaker 2: passed away. But he was he was nominated for a
Speaker 2: Grammy but he didn't win. But brilliant guy and did
Speaker 2: that first record and he did the second record, but
Speaker 2: then he passed away.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, you know McDonald's voice on your your
Speaker 1: records is such a specific I mean you know, there's
Speaker 1: not enough superlatives for what Michael McDonald brings to the
Speaker 1: table as far as like his harmonies and and but
Speaker 1: I'd always wanted to know, especially for his his very
Speaker 1: distinctive baritone, that is there some sort of consideration frequency
Speaker 1: wise wise or even chord wise because he is an instrument.
Speaker 1: I think he's an instrument more than he is a voice,
Speaker 1: and so is there any consideration to make space for
Speaker 1: him to shine through? Like okay, well let's not use
Speaker 1: this particular patch of keyboard or oftentimes if I work
Speaker 1: on a song, especially with singers that are heavy into
Speaker 1: harmony one, I have to sacrifice myself. There's certain records
Speaker 1: in which the rhythm is there, but I'm not fully
Speaker 1: playing drums.
Speaker 2: Like oh, Charlie whilst leaving off the high you.
Speaker 1: See where I'm going. Like at the time, did you
Speaker 1: know that McDonald was going to kind of paint all
Speaker 1: over your walls as you're tracking the rhythm section or
Speaker 1: was that just an.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd like to take credit, but I do. I mean,
Speaker 2: like in the documentary, Yeah Rock document there's a thing
Speaker 2: where Gary and Gary said Donald. Fagan said of McDonald,
Speaker 2: he sounds like a Herd of Camel's you know he
Speaker 2: does well. So what happened was we were cutting. We
Speaker 2: were in the studio cutting the first record, and Michael
Speaker 2: was kind of taking the streets next door. It's studio. Hey,
Speaker 2: we were in the studio at Warners. So Marty and
Speaker 2: Martin went over and said, hey, you know, I'm producing
Speaker 2: this kid from Texas. She's coming to check it out.
Speaker 2: And Michael and Bonald came over and listened to what
Speaker 2: we were doing, and we're actually doing a really song. Really,
Speaker 2: I don't know anymore, and McDonald said, wow, man. Michael
Speaker 2: said the funniest thing. He said, you know, man, uh,
Speaker 2: you know this experience you have when you come to
Speaker 2: somebody else's session and you think, why doesn't our session
Speaker 2: sound this good?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, when you're on someone else's things like.
Speaker 2: This sounds amazing. So that he said, if you need
Speaker 2: any background votos to let me know. So we stuck
Speaker 2: on Mike and his face and he sang on that.
Speaker 2: Then we got around doing rod like the Wind. We
Speaker 2: had such a long way to go and we were
Speaker 2: singing it, and of course then we realized, wow, there's
Speaker 2: only one cat to do this. So and then as
Speaker 2: the year's gone on. He sang on so many things,
Speaker 2: but I don't know that we really made a thing.
Speaker 2: But at the end of ride like the wind, the
Speaker 2: complaint with a lot of people in my guitar sols baried.
Speaker 2: He more not feel spectr but kind of a wall
Speaker 2: of sound. You got the strings, you got Mike's voice,
Speaker 2: you got all this stuff happening. And it's funny because
Speaker 2: people say to me, you and Mike sound so good together,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, what are you talking about. We're completely different,
Speaker 2: you know, in our style and everything we do. I
Speaker 2: love him to know these incredible as no one like him,
Speaker 2: but you know, he comes from a completely different place
Speaker 2: than I do, and our voices are really really different.
Speaker 2: But maybe that's the charm in it. But either way, yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't recall this in terms of mixing, but you
Speaker 2: know what mixing was. I'm not great at that. My
Speaker 2: contributions would be like, call me when you're pretty close
Speaker 2: and I'll come in and tell you what I think.
Speaker 2: You know, sorry, bring this up. Bring that. I don't
Speaker 2: have the patience to sit there and like.
Speaker 1: Mass oh, so you're not a micromanager in well.
Speaker 2: And it's funny because steely, you know Donald is, but
Speaker 2: I guess, but no, I'm more like, okay, we cut
Speaker 2: the record, you know, get it to a place where
Speaker 2: you can play it for me, and then I'll I'll
Speaker 2: tell you had a snared up shool loud or I
Speaker 2: have good I have good instincts, I think with the
Speaker 2: overall soundscape, but I'm not big on sitting there going
Speaker 2: you know, let's listen to the Snares.
Speaker 1: Maxing is my heaven, like well, because I love to
Speaker 1: hear when a song. Do you get demo? Okay? Well,
Speaker 1: all right, I'm so excited about everything you said. I'm
Speaker 1: like losing my composer here in terms of being professional,
Speaker 1: do you get demo itis? In terms of if you
Speaker 1: live with a rough mix too long when it's perfected
Speaker 1: in cleaner and everything, do you still like find yourself like, ah,
Speaker 1: the demo was where we captured the magic or or
Speaker 1: are you willing to now accept the new finalized?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I only want to improve. I mean when
Speaker 2: we brought in the original demos, the eight songs of
Speaker 2: what I've gave to warners, you know, we had the
Speaker 2: demos and that's what they signed me off of. But
Speaker 2: when we started going to the studio, in a real
Speaker 2: studio with all the stuff and Amartian. I was not
Speaker 2: resistant at all to like, you know, wanting things to
Speaker 2: get you know, more polished and better what Marchael brought
Speaker 2: to and the whole thing, because you know, I mean
Speaker 2: the demos. I did my best. There were twenty four
Speaker 2: track demos, but you know, I've learned so much from
Speaker 2: Omarty and doing the four records I did with him.
Speaker 2: But you know, I produced those demos myself, so there
Speaker 2: was plenty of room for improvement. But no, I don't
Speaker 2: have a lot of demo itis. I think that I've
Speaker 2: heard of that. I know what it could be like.
Speaker 2: But you know, I again, you know I heard Larry
Speaker 2: Carlton told me that he was emptying for Donald canbut
Speaker 2: steal it in But Donald would send him recordings of
Speaker 2: him playing suitcase piano on a little bit he recorded
Speaker 2: with a little black mic on a cassette and send
Speaker 2: them to Larry to do the takedowns for the sessions.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, where are those cassettes? And Larry said,
Speaker 2: I don't know, there's somewhere. I said, We'll go and
Speaker 2: get them. Yeah, I was like, and then I found
Speaker 2: out later from his son Travis that they burned in
Speaker 2: a fire. But can you imagine Donald thing, I'm playing
Speaker 2: Babylon's Sisters by himself at a piano with the little mike,
Speaker 2: you know, try it's priceless, but so no, I always
Speaker 2: wanted things to get slicker and slicker, you know.
Speaker 1: Okay, So, because it's so flawless, is there a mistake
Speaker 1: or something that's wrong on the record that only you
Speaker 1: know about that we don't know about that you hear
Speaker 1: it every time, like is there half a second of
Speaker 1: a wrong chord or something like?
Speaker 2: No, they're pretty perfect.
Speaker 1: I think, okay, no, But.
Speaker 2: You know what, when I did the thing about the
Speaker 2: sailing someone with them, Marty and I brought up to
Speaker 2: Steely Dan reference.
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
Speaker 2: He said, look, there are mistakes on Steely Dan records.
Speaker 2: You just don't hear them, just like all the early
Speaker 2: the Beatles stuff that we've heard, you know, with Paul's
Speaker 2: voice cracking. And I remember, I think I asked on
Speaker 2: it once about it and Donald said, yeah, like Walter
Speaker 2: and I can't even listen to Katie Lyed because it
Speaker 2: was mixed on some weird speakers that we hate and
Speaker 2: kimb really Stanton, I saw you talking abou katy lyes
Speaker 2: like unbelievable, and he said, no, they don't like it.
Speaker 2: They don't like the sound of it. That's what Donald me.
Speaker 2: That's what I remember the Donald or Gary telling me.
Speaker 2: But no, I don't know anything that really really sticks out.
Speaker 2: I mean, I tried, We worked very hard, and I
Speaker 2: don't have any musical regrets, you know, with the stuff
Speaker 2: that I did.
Speaker 1: So I know that the digital thirty two track machine,
Speaker 1: I forget the the.
Speaker 2: Well, there was the Sony one and then you know.
Speaker 1: Right Misbashi, So I know that well, Okay, so I
Speaker 1: know that Stevie Wonder caught a lot of hell for
Speaker 1: kind of the flatness of the Journey through the Secret
Speaker 1: Life of Plants album. I believe he was like one
Speaker 1: of the first guinea Pigs to record on that digital technology.
Speaker 1: Your album was recorded on the same board, was it not?
Speaker 2: Well, the first album's recorded on a Harrison, which is
Speaker 2: not particularly a great board, but it was what they
Speaker 2: had at the time. It was steady the out at
Speaker 2: the time. But I was the first album was right,
Speaker 2: no analog two tracks, okay. The second album we used
Speaker 2: one analog machine and one digital machine the three M
Speaker 2: digital machine. The first album was all analog.
Speaker 1: At the time. Could you tell like a difference or
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure we all sold like perfect sound
Speaker 1: and da da da da da.
Speaker 2: But we cut the basic tracks on the twenty four
Speaker 2: track analog machine. Just have liked sound of the drums
Speaker 2: and everything. I mean, I think analog superior is about
Speaker 2: especially for drums and based things. There's a warmth there.
Speaker 2: But then we got used the digital machine. I did
Speaker 2: like the fact that you could, even early on with
Speaker 2: those machines, you could drop in twenty seconds of something,
Speaker 2: you know, so that you know, I used to stand
Speaker 2: that there for hours singing parts. If I was flat,
Speaker 2: I had to sing it again and all that, so
Speaker 2: you know, you got into the comping thing. So that
Speaker 2: was why people liked it a lot. But no, I
Speaker 2: still think analog over I don't know what they said.
Speaker 2: I think analog is superior as far as a great
Speaker 2: analog machine. In fact, Eric Johnson cuts his basic tracks
Speaker 2: on two inch sixteen so it's a two inch machine,
Speaker 2: but it's a sixteen track head, so the gaps are wider. Oh,
Speaker 2: and then he saves that tape and sets it aside,
Speaker 2: and then when they mix he brings it out again.
Speaker 1: I never thought of that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's that to get the real meat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm learning a lot of here. Now you're
Speaker 1: telling me that this is a make especially the record.
Speaker 1: Let's start up Lovie.
Speaker 2: Before you were born, you know, this stuff was happening,
Speaker 2: but no, analog is amazing. But certainly the convenience of
Speaker 2: digital with all this stuff. I mean, there was a
Speaker 2: thing Elliott I forget his name now, he built this
Speaker 2: comping machine this before you're born. Probably you put in
Speaker 2: trs from the console. You put in seven tracks of
Speaker 2: vocal come in from the board, tracks of vocal, and
Speaker 2: you could pick A and B track and you could
Speaker 2: slide this fader over. It was a really expensive machine.
Speaker 2: You could slide it over to do a comp so
Speaker 2: fast really that it was a manual comp And I'm
Speaker 2: already and used it a lot. Yeah, it was pretty amazing.
Speaker 2: Seven vocal tracks come in, he says, okay, I want
Speaker 2: these two words from this track onto this track here,
Speaker 2: and then right at that point he slides the fader
Speaker 2: over and it slides track seven to five. That kind
Speaker 2: of thing, and people use that quite a bit before
Speaker 2: all the protool shit. Yeah, now it's just so much
Speaker 2: about convenience and the even I just thought commercial was
Speaker 2: shack where they're doing.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just hitting me right now. Your album
Speaker 1: comes out, I mean really in the dawn of the eighties,
Speaker 1: and I remember, Okay, so I specifically remember where I
Speaker 1: was when I first heard you. My dad was buying
Speaker 1: a brand new stereo system, you know, he was like
Speaker 1: a gearhead and whatnot. So your album was used as
Speaker 1: the demonstration record to show us what speakers. However, another
Speaker 1: piece of technology that gets invented kind of the same
Speaker 1: year that your album coming out is the Walkman, right,
Speaker 1: So for such a perfect sounding that's made for stere Yeah,
Speaker 1: was there concerns that now? Because even now when I create,
Speaker 1: most of us get our like we now judge it
Speaker 1: based on playing it on our laptop or listening on
Speaker 1: the phone or whatever. It's no, it's not. I haven't
Speaker 1: heard music on loudspeakers in a second in the age
Speaker 1: of Walkman. Where was that concerning that?
Speaker 2: Very much? So it was not welcome at all. In fact,
Speaker 2: it just evolved from there in my opinion, And of course,
Speaker 2: like Neil Young came out with this thing called the Ponos.
Speaker 2: I still have my pon Yeah, that Neil brought out
Speaker 2: and trying to somehow rectify the situation. But no, it
Speaker 2: just devolved from the still trying to fix it. Well,
Speaker 2: I mean Neil brought it out trying to fix No.
Speaker 2: He Neil brought the Ponos out, and I remember he
Speaker 2: took it tomorrow Austin and showed him trying to fix
Speaker 2: this problem with the degradation of the quality of the
Speaker 2: MP three and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: Wait, you're saying that he has been working on the
Speaker 1: ponos for the longest time.
Speaker 2: Well, no, this is a long time ago. I'm saying
Speaker 2: when all this stuff came out and there was this
Speaker 2: degradation with them compression and all that stuff and compromises,
Speaker 2: and you know, Neil brought out this Ponos thing, the
Speaker 2: thing like this, and he brought it to my Austin
Speaker 2: showed it to him because it was like really high
Speaker 2: five and it was twenty four bit or whatever. It
Speaker 2: was just a lot better. Now thinks are getting much
Speaker 2: much better. We got ninety six K and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: But no, that was a drag to have to listen to.
Speaker 2: In fact, my second record Another page was this first
Speaker 2: record on Warner Brothers on cassette, and you know, cassette
Speaker 2: sound like shit. I mean the tape is like that
Speaker 2: big you know.
Speaker 1: Wait, I didn't. I didn't realize that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, just on Warner Brothers. Another page, the second
Speaker 2: record they added Arthur to it on the cassette only,
Speaker 2: and so you could get to buy the cassette.
Speaker 1: So I was going to ask you how come you
Speaker 1: didn't put Arthur on the second record.
Speaker 2: Because there was a lot of contractual shit with doing
Speaker 2: our Arthur. It wasn't on Warners or whatever the case,
Speaker 2: but Warners ended up they put it on the cassette
Speaker 2: to drive people to buy cassettes so you can bought
Speaker 2: another page vinyl. It wasn't on there, but if you have,
Speaker 2: that's marketing. But to me, when you put on the album,
Speaker 2: you know and listen to it, it's made. But then
Speaker 2: the cassette is disappointing.
Speaker 1: You know, I've read that, And I don't know if
Speaker 1: this came from you opening for Zeppelin. You brought something
Speaker 1: from Jimmy Page. What is it that you?
Speaker 2: Oh, Jimmy. Jimmy was playing these high wad amplifiers from
Speaker 2: England that this got Dave Reid Mason's garage and the
Speaker 2: only people that I'd seen in magazines were he in Townsend.
Speaker 2: So I was on the road. I was on the
Speaker 2: couple shows with him, and I was hanging out and
Speaker 2: you got to realize, first tour in the States, there
Speaker 2: wasn't all this security. They weren't huge like they got.
Speaker 2: So we all shared the same dressing room. It was
Speaker 2: kind of like access and Jimmy was very, very nice,
Speaker 2: and so you know, I asked him about these amplifiers.
Speaker 2: I said, wow, these are so cool. I've seen him
Speaker 2: in magazines, but we don't have them here and he said, well,
Speaker 2: just Pete and I have them. But he said, if
Speaker 2: you want one, give my guy some money. We'll have
Speaker 2: Dave build you one, send you one, and again him
Speaker 2: seven hundred bucks. I was like nineteen, and my friend said,
Speaker 2: you'll never see anything. But two months later by boat
Speaker 2: here comes this cabinet and head and I had a
Speaker 2: high want that Jimmy Page.
Speaker 1: So prime Jimmy Page sold you a camp.
Speaker 2: Well, he had one made for me in England and
Speaker 2: had it and then shipped to me in San Antonio.
Speaker 2: But what's cool about I was the Coolescon Santina because
Speaker 2: on a high watt. But also I got from.
Speaker 1: Jimmy page where is it now?
Speaker 2: I have no idea. Come on, man, sad to say serious,
Speaker 2: I probably sold it for drugs.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you're not sitting in an like that with
Speaker 1: any of your not here.
Speaker 2: I'm always been wrong.
Speaker 1: Where are your Grammys right now?
Speaker 2: Well, they're at my place to stop playing?
Speaker 1: Where in New York and my Okay?
Speaker 2: But you know what's interesting is I saw Jimmy. The
Speaker 2: Beach Boys did two big concerts in Philly and Russian DC,
Speaker 2: and Jimmy was on the show Solo planned some blues
Speaker 2: and stuff on the show. This is like fourth of July.
Speaker 2: Carl's still alive. Okay, But anyway, I went back to
Speaker 2: say a lot to Jimmy because you know, I was then.
Speaker 2: I was Christopher Cross, you know. So I went back
Speaker 2: so alone. He was very very gracious again, but I
Speaker 2: told him the story, and Jimmy said, you know, man,
Speaker 2: I don't remember anything about this, but he said, but
Speaker 2: I got to tell you. I love the story. It
Speaker 2: is such a touching thing. I remember it. I've never
Speaker 2: seen Jimmy since, but I said, he said, I love
Speaker 2: the story. I said, really, and he said yeah, because
Speaker 2: it sounds like I was nice to you. And I said,
Speaker 2: oh man, I was like a puppy dog at your feet.
Speaker 2: Can I have your pick or whatever? He said, it
Speaker 2: sounds like I was nice to you. And I said,
Speaker 2: you were so nice you can't imagine, he said, And
Speaker 2: Jimmy said, you know what.
Speaker 1: Legend terry people love when the boomerang comes back.
Speaker 2: He said, I like this story because he said, I've
Speaker 2: not always been the nicest guy. That was just like
Speaker 2: heavy man, meaning like we got huge, and there were
Speaker 2: moments when I probably wasn't that nice, and so the
Speaker 2: fact that I was nice to this young kid got
Speaker 2: you this amplifier. I mean, remember but and I thought
Speaker 2: that was I don't know Jimmy at all, but I
Speaker 2: thought that was very touching that he said that, because
Speaker 2: you know he was he was so patient and nice.
Speaker 2: Churse they weren't huge then. In fact, after the first night,
Speaker 2: we were in the dressing and beyond the second show
Speaker 2: and Jimmy said, how do you kids? He and Plant said,
Speaker 2: how do you kids follow us around? Or your parents
Speaker 2: are rich or something? And I said, well, no, we're
Speaker 2: opening the show. And he said really, So we weren't
Speaker 2: very good. But the next night we're playing our set.
Speaker 2: Thirty minutes, I look on the side of the stage
Speaker 2: and there's Jimmy and Robert standing there, Robert and his
Speaker 2: classic Swayed vest. And they didn't stay very long, but
Speaker 2: they said, yeah, but it was crazy. It was fantastic
Speaker 2: opportunities to and so that's where the Ginger Breaker story.
Speaker 2: Same thing, this same promoter, Joe Miller, put me on
Speaker 2: a bunch of different I used to work for Joe
Speaker 2: as a production assistant, doing anything I could do just
Speaker 2: to learn about the business. And my job that night
Speaker 2: when Blind Faith came through town was to gingerhead ulcers.
Speaker 2: So my job I got a big silver bucket with ice,
Speaker 2: and my job was to get quarts of milk, which
Speaker 2: I'd have the spout open, and I crouched down behind
Speaker 2: Ginger's kit silver double bass drums. And remember I was
Speaker 2: a drummer, So I crouched behind back there and my
Speaker 2: job was to Ginger would reach down, I'd hand him
Speaker 2: a quarter of milk. He would chug it and then
Speaker 2: just throw the carton, you know. So by the end
Speaker 2: of the night, and it was amazing quest watching him double.
Speaker 2: You know he was technically you know, it was amazing
Speaker 2: and watching him. By the end of the night, I'm
Speaker 2: sitting there and I'm covered with milk and Ginger and
Speaker 2: and Ginger gets up and doesn't say one word to me.
Speaker 2: He doesn't say thanks, thanks a lot, kid, nothing, just
Speaker 2: like couldn't couldn't, couldn't be bothered to say, hey, thanks
Speaker 2: a lot.
Speaker 1: You know, this is the promo, this is the cliff
Speaker 1: where what is now?
Speaker 2: So that that was my only interaction with Ginger Baker,
Speaker 2: But I got to tell you it was staggeringly cool
Speaker 2: just to be that close to him and watching him play.
Speaker 1: When I when I saw that you did it. My
Speaker 1: my my question, d was how did you survive Ginger Baker? Okay,
Speaker 1: that's that's the nicest.
Speaker 2: Now he would just and he'd just throw the cord
Speaker 2: and it hit me. Yeah. And I had the silver
Speaker 2: bucket with all the eyes from the coats and milk,
Speaker 2: and they said, now, kid, be sure that you opened
Speaker 2: the spout so it's ready. And when Ginger grabs it,
Speaker 2: I go and he can just chug it. You know,
Speaker 2: I guess it's south is Ulcer. But so later on,
Speaker 2: as the years went on and I heard all these
Speaker 2: stories about mister Baker that I realized, well, that seems
Speaker 2: to be kind of and of course I did. I
Speaker 2: did get to know Jack Bruce quite well and did
Speaker 2: stuff with Jack. And I was telling Jack then he said, well, man,
Speaker 2: that's you know, that's ginger.
Speaker 1: Did you appreciate how close you were to the fire.
Speaker 2: Or oh yeah, I mean again, man, you know, like
Speaker 2: you know better than anybody, like at a Beyond say show,
Speaker 2: you wouldn't get anywhere near her are out or you know,
Speaker 2: but no, in those days, it was more relaxed, like
Speaker 2: it wasn't big security.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: I'd come out Peter Grant like no, and well for
Speaker 2: blind Faith, like I would come out during the day
Speaker 2: and sit on a case and Eric would come out
Speaker 2: with his red through thirty five and his martial stacks
Speaker 2: like in the cream days. He was still there and
Speaker 2: he would just play for like thirty minutes in the
Speaker 2: hall by himself, and I was just sitting there watching that.
Speaker 2: And it was life changing. I mean, to be around
Speaker 2: that stuff. Nowadays you wouldn't get near them, but in
Speaker 2: those days it was it was different. Question. It was
Speaker 2: just like all the security stuff that we have now,
Speaker 2: it's just it's all blown up. It's kind of like
Speaker 2: you said earlier about the sound systems. I mean, it
Speaker 2: was just different then. They weren't huge, huge stars like
Speaker 2: they are now.
Speaker 1: You know. Okay, So you know, I would imagine one
Speaker 1: of the burdens of coming out so strong is that,
Speaker 1: you know, there's a portion of the audience that's just
Speaker 1: attached to that particular work or not. And don't say
Speaker 1: all of them, but what projects are near and dear,
Speaker 1: like close to you that you felt were overlooked that
Speaker 1: we should pay attention to.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, it's like when you have kids,
Speaker 2: you know, the little ones are always the kind of
Speaker 2: the most precious and all that. So as much as
Speaker 2: I'm so proud of the first work I did, I
Speaker 2: made twelve records over the years, and the later ones,
Speaker 2: like Secret Ladder and Doctor Faith, they're kind of in
Speaker 2: this later area. Those two are just I think, really
Speaker 2: really and Doctor Faith in particular is no keyboards on
Speaker 2: the work. It's all guitarist textures and stuff. So I
Speaker 2: think Doctor Faith's Secret Ladder or two I'm extremely proud of.
Speaker 2: I think the songwriting holds up, you know, trying not
Speaker 2: to look the record have any Cereal on it, every record,
Speaker 2: So those two I think are are worth a listen,
Speaker 2: but you know, and they're fans that know them, but
Speaker 2: they didn't sell, I mean collectively the next ten records
Speaker 2: after my first two, you know, sol or anything compared
Speaker 2: to the first two, you know. So, but I've always
Speaker 2: done what I love to do, and I did it
Speaker 2: from my heart, and so I'm not really doing any
Speaker 2: new work at the moment, but super proud of all
Speaker 2: that work. And we do play those songs in the
Speaker 2: show because I insist on at least trying to expose
Speaker 2: the audience to some of these later tunes. And and
Speaker 2: I'll enevitbly gets some social media to say, hey, why
Speaker 2: didn't you play Hunger or one of these obscure tunes.
Speaker 2: I said, well, you know, no one really cares, you know,
Speaker 2: but people do care. But so it's it's a hard
Speaker 2: balance because I think two thirds of the audience comes
Speaker 2: for Arthur Sailing, right, like the win those songs.
Speaker 1: You know, So of those twelve records, what's the most creative,
Speaker 1: rebellious thing that you've done that I'm not aware of?
Speaker 2: Interesting? You know about Secret Ladder, It's it's it's a
Speaker 2: it's a thing where it's got a guitar, acoustic guitar,
Speaker 2: and people are climbing out of the soundhole, up the
Speaker 2: frets to heaven, you know, to the clouds. And Jimmy,
Speaker 2: when I was on the show with you, Jimmy wanted
Speaker 2: an album to show and I said, well, we only
Speaker 2: put it on CD. When have an emma, Jimmy had
Speaker 2: one made up and he showed it, you know, And
Speaker 2: then Jimmy said to me when I was standing out there,
Speaker 2: he said, this is like the coolest idea, Like who
Speaker 2: get you know? This is cool with the guitar because
Speaker 2: he plays guitar. But anyway, I digress. What did you
Speaker 2: ask me? Oh?
Speaker 1: No, I just have you ever done anything? Oh rebellious creatively? Well,
Speaker 1: there's a song on your rap record with the Dust,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I'm playing.
Speaker 2: There's a song on album called Every Turn of the
Speaker 2: World's my third record, and a song called Charm the Snake,
Speaker 2: and it's pretty aggressive, and I think it kind of
Speaker 2: hurt me at radio because radio just couldn't couldn't play it.
Speaker 2: It was just too rock for them, you know. But
Speaker 2: it's and actually I think Hinley at one point told
Speaker 2: me like one of the favorite things I've done because
Speaker 2: it was kind of like Sunset grill or something. You know,
Speaker 2: it's pretty aggressive, but and I used this weird instrument
Speaker 2: called the synthax and stuff. But anyway, that's kind of
Speaker 2: an outside track for me. But by that time I
Speaker 2: was cemented as the ballot a deer and and radio
Speaker 2: just couldn't handle it playing. You know, I wasn't going
Speaker 2: to get played on album radio and it was too
Speaker 2: aggressive for pop radio, and I kind of just fell
Speaker 2: down the middle. But that's probably the tune that's probably
Speaker 2: the most.
Speaker 1: You know, what's the best advice that you were given?
Speaker 1: And subsequently, what's the advice that you are glad that
Speaker 1: you ignored?
Speaker 2: You know, I think I think McDonald at one point said,
Speaker 2: you know, bad or good like the out rock thing.
Speaker 2: Mike said, you know, bad are good. When people are
Speaker 2: talking about you, they're you know, mentioning you, that's a
Speaker 2: good thing.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like, I'm glad to be humiliated or whatever it takes.
Speaker 2: It takes, you know, but uh yeah, you know, I
Speaker 2: think it's it's uh far as what to tell people.
Speaker 2: I mean, send your tape to the wrong.
Speaker 1: Guy, you know, Oh, that's one.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's our business. As you know, it's it's
Speaker 2: so tough. There's so few people. I thank the audience
Speaker 2: every not for their support, because I said, there's so
Speaker 2: many musicians that I know and don't know who never
Speaker 2: had this opportunity to sit up here and play the
Speaker 2: music for people, you know. And so I think people
Speaker 2: like Carl Wilson and Brian and people like this that
Speaker 2: I got to meet, who you know, just recognized me
Speaker 2: and you know, as an artist and all that kind
Speaker 2: of thing, even like Paul, you know, like McCarty apparently
Speaker 2: you know, there's a book where John Lennon, I guess,
Speaker 2: talks about sailing and he was a big fan and
Speaker 2: all this stuff, and I never got to be John.
Speaker 2: But I asked Paul about and Paul said, well, I don't,
Speaker 2: I don't know per se you know that about that
Speaker 2: particular thing. But I know that we all had your record,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, now, wait a minute, you all had
Speaker 2: my record. He goes, well, everybody had your record.
Speaker 1: And you do know that everyone had your record.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, wait a minute, you're the Beatles.
Speaker 2: You have so you know those kinds of moments where
Speaker 2: John Lennon. You know, those are the things that validate
Speaker 2: you to where like I told Johnny Mitchell once, I said,
Speaker 2: I I told her I want to write down everything
Speaker 2: you say. But I said, you know, I hope I
Speaker 2: wish my music could mean as much to someone as
Speaker 2: yours as to me. And she said, well, you know,
Speaker 2: I look at music and it's like some people don't
Speaker 2: like my voice or don't like my music, you know.
Speaker 2: And she said so, I'm not sure right, Well, she
Speaker 2: was just being gracious, but she said, so, you know,
Speaker 2: you do what you do, and you know, some people
Speaker 2: embrace some people don't.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: And I think and these friendships that I've had over
Speaker 2: the years, like Randy Newman, people like this that I
Speaker 2: rever so much that you know, I just feel somewhat validated,
Speaker 2: like I said, people like Brian Wilson. And in my house,
Speaker 2: I have framed one Christmas Eve. I got the tube
Speaker 2: in the mail and it was an orchestral piece of
Speaker 2: paper with God only knows written outside by Brian. Oh wow,
Speaker 2: and I have it and Brian. I asked Brian why
Speaker 2: he sent it to me. He said, well, because I
Speaker 2: know how much you love Carl and he's saying that
Speaker 2: I thought you'd like to have it, and you still
Speaker 2: have it, right, I do. And Carl said to me once,
Speaker 2: Carl said, when we were doing all these vocal sessions,
Speaker 2: he said, we make a nice sound. I love that man.
Speaker 2: So all these little validations I think, you know, in
Speaker 2: spite of the meteoric early success and that stuff means
Speaker 2: the world to me.
Speaker 1: You know, what's your favorite mental album?
Speaker 2: Well, Hezia really well, I mean listen Blue Blue for
Speaker 2: the Roses. I mean I can, that's what I like.
Speaker 2: Steely Dan like, don't make me pick, but if I
Speaker 2: mean Hezia's when she got with Jako because of Zacho, well, no,
Speaker 2: it just opened up her head. And I think even
Speaker 2: more than Summer Lawns well, Edith and the Kingpin. Don't
Speaker 2: make me choose, but yeah, I think yea certainly Edith.
Speaker 2: But Haia like I heard that. Joan said to some
Speaker 2: bass player, Uh, can you play something besides the root
Speaker 2: And he said, lady, I'm a bass player. I got
Speaker 2: four st rings. That's what I do. And she said,
Speaker 2: he said, but there's this guy in Florida. I'll give
Speaker 2: you his number. He does that kind of shit and
Speaker 2: it was Jacko, and she called him and he flew
Speaker 2: out to La and Jones said, immediately we had a
Speaker 2: conversation musically, but I feel like Hazia, but Hissing's amazing,
Speaker 2: like I said Edith in the Kingpin and you know,
Speaker 2: uh uh, I mean Scarlett. Yeah, it's incredible. I mean
Speaker 2: there's not a bad piece of music in any of
Speaker 2: that stuff. I mean, Blue is incredible, Ladies of the
Speaker 2: Candle that but for the Roses is one that Ludwig's on,
Speaker 2: all that stuff. I love that stuff.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've I've Butzer for You is the yeah,
Speaker 1: and I love it. I'm not complaining. I'm not complaining,
Speaker 1: but it's just everyone always goes to that. But I
Speaker 1: always feel like that's like saying Thriller is your favorite album,
Speaker 1: or Songs in the Key of Life like or Sergeant
Speaker 1: Pepper's like and no One I think. I still say
Speaker 1: the Hissing of the Summer Lines is.
Speaker 2: Well, it's right. I agree with you. I mean, like
Speaker 2: Coyote and those tunes stuff. But you know, with Stevie,
Speaker 2: it's interesting because not probably songs a yes, but like
Speaker 2: Superwoman was on Music of my Mind. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 2: that to me.
Speaker 1: Oh, no, there's nothing like Music of My Mind.
Speaker 2: Sounds a quil but Music of my Mind, I mean
Speaker 2: that record is one that really really got me.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm with you there before I close my fire,
Speaker 1: I don't question is oh because of the iconic flamingo
Speaker 1: artwork on your album covers, where is the original drawing
Speaker 1: that adorned the debut album?
Speaker 2: I think I would hope that Warner's probably has it,
Speaker 2: because what happened was when Jimmy newhouse, this drummer came
Speaker 2: in with it was an album shaped size thing, but
Speaker 2: it was the water color was covering the page. It
Speaker 2: wasn't in the green right, and he said, I think
Speaker 2: this is what your music looks like. Hung it on
Speaker 2: the wall, kind of like a focal point. And then
Speaker 2: when I went to Warner's we got the album deal.
Speaker 2: You know, they put up fifty records a month. I said,
Speaker 2: what do you think about this? And they said, you know,
Speaker 2: it's cool. I said, okay. So then they had this
Speaker 2: guy Flora Holmes in Atlanta kind of put the green
Speaker 2: around it and all that. But somewhere peach Onsen are
Speaker 2: one of the art people at Warner's, is probably in
Speaker 2: the Warner's archive. Somewhere where they kept it because I
Speaker 2: gave it to him to draw the original thing with it.
Speaker 2: But originally it was almost like a Joni Mitchell watercolor.
Speaker 2: But the whole album was just that lagoon scene, and
Speaker 2: then you put it in the circle and the flamingo
Speaker 2: has no particular Everybody asked me, like, what's the significance.
Speaker 2: It's just kind of like Linda Ronstet's heart. You know,
Speaker 2: it just became a thing that people identified me with.
Speaker 2: So now, at one point when the record stopped selling
Speaker 2: very well, one of the guys said, I think we
Speaker 2: should take the flaming go out back and beat the
Speaker 2: shit out of it.
Speaker 1: Oh man, well, Christopher Cross, I thank you so much.
Speaker 1: This is like, even as you were talking, I think
Speaker 1: it was the first time I had an out of
Speaker 1: body experience where I actually said to myself like, wow,
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm listening to the world's coolest music podcast.
Speaker 1: Then I was like, idiot, this is your podcast.
Speaker 2: Right, No, no, you tukon. I'm honored to be here.
Speaker 2: I'm a massive fan, and yeah, I filled to call
Speaker 2: your friend, and I'm just glad to speak the time
Speaker 2: with you.
Speaker 1: Thank you for embracing me and I thank you so
Speaker 1: much and yo the great Christopher Cross on the Quest
Speaker 1: Left Show and we will see you on the next round,
Speaker 1: people Right. Quest Love Show is hosted by Me Amir
Speaker 1: Quest Love Thompson. The executive producers are Sean g Brian
Speaker 1: Calhoun and Me. Produced by Brittany Benjamin and Jake Paine.
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