WEBVTT - Ep. 02: Clovisia the Beautiful

0:00:01.560 --> 0:00:05.760
<v Speaker 1>Humans belonging to Clovis and Folsome cultures entered in America,

0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:10.320
<v Speaker 1>teeming with a remarkable diversity of Africa like creatures, but

0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:15.040
<v Speaker 1>confronted an extinction crisis that was possibly precipitated by their

0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:19.280
<v Speaker 1>own arrival. I'm Dan Florries, and this is the American West,

0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:25.160
<v Speaker 1>brought to you by Velvet Buck. Still in Barrel, Velvet

0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:28.360
<v Speaker 1>Buck arrives this summer, just in time for the season

0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:31.960
<v Speaker 1>that calls us home. A portion of every bottle supports

0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:36.199
<v Speaker 1>backcountry hunters and anglers to protect public lands, waters and

0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:58.840
<v Speaker 1>wildlife enjoy responsibly Clovisia the Beautiful. We hardly know our

0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:02.720
<v Speaker 1>actual beginnings America, even when the stories are set in

0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:06.080
<v Speaker 1>places we recognize. The characters of our deep time history

0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.440
<v Speaker 1>can be alien to the point of fantasy. But while

0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:12.360
<v Speaker 1>it may sound unlikely in the twenty twenties, there's no

0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:16.520
<v Speaker 1>place quite like downtown Los Angeles for acquiring some sense

0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:23.199
<v Speaker 1>of how the human story began on the continent. Rancho

0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:27.000
<v Speaker 1>Librea Tarpits, just off Wiltshire Boulevard in the heart of

0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.920
<v Speaker 1>a sprawling Pacific coast city, is today the most successible

0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.080
<v Speaker 1>place in the country for picturing in the minds eye

0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:37.880
<v Speaker 1>the wild new world migrating humans found when they first

0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:42.080
<v Speaker 1>saw America. True enough, there's a sense of time travel shock,

0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.000
<v Speaker 1>having your lift drop you in the middle of swirling,

0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:48.800
<v Speaker 1>honking la traffic, only to stand face to face minutes

0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:53.920
<v Speaker 1>later with Columbian mammos fatally mired in tar, trumpeting their despair.

0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:58.040
<v Speaker 1>Even if the mammoths are robots and their forlorn cries

0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.360
<v Speaker 1>don't drown out the traffic, they and Librea and the

0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:05.680
<v Speaker 1>Page Museum still work a kind of magic. Twenty thousand

0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:09.480
<v Speaker 1>years drops away if you let it, because Librea preserves

0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.840
<v Speaker 1>tangible remnants of a world at the far ends of

0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:16.919
<v Speaker 1>the earth for ancestors of ours whose migrations had begun

0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:22.200
<v Speaker 1>in Africa. The Page Museum is a working laboratory of paleontology,

0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:26.520
<v Speaker 1>where visitors can watch scientists labor over the site's latest discoveries.

0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:30.560
<v Speaker 1>Many of those are the remains of scavenger predators once

0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.920
<v Speaker 1>lured by the cries of snagged mammoths, or the scin

0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:38.840
<v Speaker 1>of decomposing horses, camels, or ground sloths trapped by surface

0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:42.040
<v Speaker 1>tar near what was once a water source and a

0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:46.680
<v Speaker 1>dry landscape. The skulls and tusks of the elephants extracted

0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.120
<v Speaker 1>from Librea are impressive, but anyone who tours the museum

0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:53.600
<v Speaker 1>has to admit the most stunning display is the wall,

0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:59.000
<v Speaker 1>backlit and yellow of hundreds of dire wolf skulls. The

0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:03.799
<v Speaker 1>strapping cane. It's indigenous to America, but memorably revived as

0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:07.800
<v Speaker 1>fictional wester ROAs fauna and Game of Thrones left the

0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:13.639
<v Speaker 1>most remains here of any species, eighteen hundred individuals. The

0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:17.240
<v Speaker 1>fossils of hundreds of coyotes, a brawnier version than our

0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.680
<v Speaker 1>modern animal, make up the third most common species here,

0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:25.440
<v Speaker 1>But in second place are those ultimate ambush predators of

0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:31.200
<v Speaker 1>the Pleistocene, the western subspecies of sabertooths, heavily built cats

0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:35.560
<v Speaker 1>with a fearsome snake like jaw, gape and enormous fangs.

0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.360
<v Speaker 1>The replica skull of a sabertooth from Librea sits a

0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:43.840
<v Speaker 1>few feet away as I write this. Its rapier sharp

0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.760
<v Speaker 1>canines capable of tearing open a sloth or mammoth calf,

0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:52.880
<v Speaker 1>gleaming in rich afternoon light, Each fang measures a full

0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:58.080
<v Speaker 1>eight inches from gumline to tip. The vast assemblages of

0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:04.040
<v Speaker 1>hyperconnivore bones at Las joined the skeletal remains of mega herbivores,

0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:11.120
<v Speaker 1>mammoths and macedons, giant bison, pronghorns, lamas, California turkeys, and

0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:16.200
<v Speaker 1>many more. The predator list is lengthier than just wolves, coyotes,

0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.200
<v Speaker 1>and sabretooths as well. The cats whose remains have come

0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:24.600
<v Speaker 1>out of the tar include American cheetahs, step lions, and

0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:30.520
<v Speaker 1>giant jaguars. Immense, hyperactive short faced bears twice the weight

0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:34.200
<v Speaker 1>of a grizzly died in the asphalt. So did the

0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:39.159
<v Speaker 1>enormous Miriam's terratorn applies to seeing bird of prey with

0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:44.159
<v Speaker 1>a ten and a half foot wingspan. The remains span

0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:49.279
<v Speaker 1>indigenous creatures spawned by continental evolution and migrants from Asia,

0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:54.839
<v Speaker 1>some ancient to America, some recent arrivals. The mammals and

0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:58.839
<v Speaker 1>birds may seem alien are vaguely African, but in fact

0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:08.159
<v Speaker 1>this bestiary was purely classically American, the America of the Pleistocene.

0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.640
<v Speaker 1>The Rancho Librea victims that left their bones and skulls

0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:15.679
<v Speaker 1>in Casinar were once representatives of one of the grand

0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:19.840
<v Speaker 1>ecologies of planet Earth. This was a different America than

0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:23.280
<v Speaker 1>most of us conjured. When we imagine the continent Europeans

0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:27.919
<v Speaker 1>found five hundred years ago. But this libreal world wasn't

0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:31.719
<v Speaker 1>like the pre chick Salube age of the dinosaurs absent

0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:36.240
<v Speaker 1>of humans either. Late in the Pleistocene, our human forebears

0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.799
<v Speaker 1>joined American ecologies as the newest predator.

0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:40.120
<v Speaker 2>Here.

0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:44.720
<v Speaker 1>These first Americans lived their lives among Librea creatures and

0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:49.120
<v Speaker 1>created the first coast to coast human societies in American history.

0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:53.080
<v Speaker 1>Their presence began to leave the continent, and this rich

0:05:53.240 --> 0:06:06.640
<v Speaker 1>aggregate of impressive animals forever changed. The first time we

0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:09.719
<v Speaker 1>became aware that humans were actually in America during the

0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.200
<v Speaker 1>Pleistocene was barely one hundred years ago, and the place

0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:17.599
<v Speaker 1>that happened was along the New Mexico Colorado border. In

0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:20.960
<v Speaker 1>the days following a flood in the dry Cimarron River,

0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:25.640
<v Speaker 1>an African American cowboy named George mcjunkin was riding through

0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:29.600
<v Speaker 1>grassy parkland a few hundred yards below the rim rock

0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.680
<v Speaker 1>of a miles long mesa that extended eastward from the

0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:38.240
<v Speaker 1>rocky mountains, checking for ranch fence lines damaged by the flood.

0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:44.520
<v Speaker 1>Suddenly mcjenkin's horse braced its hoofs, furrowing into foot deep

0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:48.040
<v Speaker 1>mud at the edge of a ragged scar. Floodwaters had

0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:51.880
<v Speaker 1>cut into the slope below the Mesa. Mcjenkin leaned out

0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:54.960
<v Speaker 1>of his saddle to peer into a fresh chasm sliced

0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:59.279
<v Speaker 1>into the brown shale. What he saw changed the story

0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:04.400
<v Speaker 1>of America forever. On a similar rainy August day in

0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:08.080
<v Speaker 1>twenty eighteen, some thirty five of us are stepping through

0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:11.480
<v Speaker 1>the lush grass of that same slope as it angles

0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:15.880
<v Speaker 1>up towards the rim rock of Johnson Mesa. We're following

0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:20.200
<v Speaker 1>David Eck, a New Mexico State Lands archaeologist with a

0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.760
<v Speaker 1>long ponytail halfway down his back, who is leading us

0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:27.600
<v Speaker 1>towards the very spot where George mcjenkin's horse had pulled

0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:32.000
<v Speaker 1>up one hundred and ten years before. The topography is

0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:37.520
<v Speaker 1>now a grassy, shallow drain called wild Horse Arroyo, and

0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:41.200
<v Speaker 1>as we crowd around its edges, it seems somehow too

0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.440
<v Speaker 1>commonplace to be the scene of one of the continent's

0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:50.440
<v Speaker 1>most significant historical finds. Nonetheless, this in the flesh is

0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:57.160
<v Speaker 1>the legendary fulsome archaeological site. What mcjunkin had done about

0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:00.320
<v Speaker 1>where we now stood talking was to spot in the

0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:04.960
<v Speaker 1>flood gashed arroyo bones of an immense size. They turned

0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:08.640
<v Speaker 1>out to be from a herd of bison antiquis, an

0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:13.640
<v Speaker 1>extinct form of giant bison, but the bones themselves weren't

0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:17.840
<v Speaker 1>the pas de raisi sants. At the time, the sciences

0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:21.480
<v Speaker 1>of ethnology and archaeology in the United States were firmed

0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:25.360
<v Speaker 1>that American Indians had arrived in North America only a

0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:30.840
<v Speaker 1>couple thousand years prior to the coming of Europeans. In

0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.000
<v Speaker 1>nineteen twenty six, the Black Cowboys plea to have a

0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:38.600
<v Speaker 1>scientist look at his bone pit reached Jesse Figgins, director

0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:42.800
<v Speaker 1>of the Colorado Museum of Natural History in Denver. Something

0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:46.720
<v Speaker 1>of an amateur himself, Figgins was mostly interested in fossil

0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:50.480
<v Speaker 1>bison that might make exhibits in his museum. His team

0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.480
<v Speaker 1>began an excavation of the site in May of nineteen

0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:57.840
<v Speaker 1>twenty six and quickly began finding the skeletal remains of

0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:02.600
<v Speaker 1>bison of a monstrous size. That was exciting enough, but

0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:06.280
<v Speaker 1>in their second season of work, on August twenty ninth,

0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:12.160
<v Speaker 1>nineteen twenty seven, Figgins's crew traveled up Big History pay dirt.

0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:17.040
<v Speaker 1>As David Eck was gesturing to the dimensions of this

0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:21.240
<v Speaker 1>near century old dig in the pocket of my light

0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:25.080
<v Speaker 1>Patagonia jacket, my fingers closed over an object that I

0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:28.679
<v Speaker 1>could fit into my palm. In shape, it was oblate,

0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:33.160
<v Speaker 1>think a flattened football, but with an end bitten off.

0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.520
<v Speaker 1>Beneath my fingers, I could feel an irregular surface, made

0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:41.880
<v Speaker 1>so by labor intensive flaking to create a pointed blade

0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:46.240
<v Speaker 1>that dwindled to a remarkably thin base. The delicacy of

0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:51.520
<v Speaker 1>that base was a result of matching flutes skillfully popped

0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:55.480
<v Speaker 1>from the flint on both sides, and that first summer

0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:59.920
<v Speaker 1>of digging, Figginson's paleontologists had on earthed two of these

0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.920
<v Speaker 1>points in the loose dirt of the site. Eventually, the

0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:07.800
<v Speaker 1>Denver team would find eight of these stunning fluted points

0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:11.560
<v Speaker 1>scattered amongst the bones. But it wasn't just the bones

0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:15.160
<v Speaker 1>and not the points that made folsome what American Museum

0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:20.760
<v Speaker 1>of Natural History scientists Henry Fairfield Osborne labeled the greatest

0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:25.480
<v Speaker 1>event in American discoveries. When the second season crew at

0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:28.800
<v Speaker 1>Folsom flicked the dirt from the ribs of an extinct bison,

0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.360
<v Speaker 1>they were greeted by the sight of one of these

0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:36.600
<v Speaker 1>fluted points embedded to two thirds its length in the bone.

0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:38.680
<v Speaker 1>The bar for proof that humans were part of the

0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:43.280
<v Speaker 1>American places scene had always been an extinct animal, preserving

0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.720
<v Speaker 1>evidence that as a living creature, it had been killed

0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:51.680
<v Speaker 1>by human technology. Now outside the tiny berg of Folsom,

0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:57.640
<v Speaker 1>New Mexico, that bar was hurdled. America two had an antiquity.

0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:01.400
<v Speaker 1>How much of an antiquity was still in question because

0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:06.400
<v Speaker 1>radiocarbon dating was yet three decades in the future. Figgins

0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:10.520
<v Speaker 1>claimed the site was four hundred thousand years old. Eventually,

0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:15.520
<v Speaker 1>archaeology and paleontology would agree that on an October day,

0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.120
<v Speaker 1>a band of three dozen humans had driven into a

0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:24.240
<v Speaker 1>Box canyon, killed and butchered thirty two giant bison of

0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:28.120
<v Speaker 1>the species Bison antiquis in the spot where I was

0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:32.320
<v Speaker 1>now standing, and they had done this twelve thousand, four

0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:36.439
<v Speaker 1>hundred and fifty years ago. No one knows now what

0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:40.520
<v Speaker 1>these ancient bison hunters call themselves or their weapons. Their

0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:44.640
<v Speaker 1>beautiful fluted points were likely attached to darts thrown by

0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:48.319
<v Speaker 1>at adults or spear throwers. But not knowing much about

0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:52.000
<v Speaker 1>these early Americans didn't prevent the scientists from naming both

0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:56.280
<v Speaker 1>the points and the people Fulsome after the nearby town.

0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:04.360
<v Speaker 1>Yet Fulsome wasn't the book of genesis for America's human history.

0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:09.200
<v Speaker 1>Six years after the Fulsome discovery, there was another dramatic revelation.

0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.960
<v Speaker 1>How on the featureless sweeps of the southern Great Plains,

0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:17.400
<v Speaker 1>an ordinary gravel excavation near a tiny farming town named

0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:22.840
<v Speaker 1>Clovis exposed the bones of long extinct American elephants, a

0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:27.360
<v Speaker 1>remarkable twenty eight of them. Science in the reading public

0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.920
<v Speaker 1>knew that America had harbored various kinds of giant elephants

0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:34.880
<v Speaker 1>in the deep past, But unlike nineteenth century mastodon finds

0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.000
<v Speaker 1>in the East, this time the skeletons were intermixed with

0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:42.559
<v Speaker 1>large five to six inch long projectile points and tools

0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:46.560
<v Speaker 1>of an unknown and apparently even more ancient population than

0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:50.480
<v Speaker 1>the Fulsome people. We now know that even these elephant

0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:54.000
<v Speaker 1>hunters were not the first. What has very recently produced

0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:58.319
<v Speaker 1>certain evidence for even more ancient arrivals in America, likely

0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:03.240
<v Speaker 1>in boats following shoreline out of Asia. Are human footprints

0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:09.320
<v Speaker 1>to be precise sixty one footprints left primarily by children

0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:12.880
<v Speaker 1>or adolescents, in the soft mud of a lake shore

0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:17.520
<v Speaker 1>some twenty three thousand years before the area became New

0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:23.160
<v Speaker 1>Mexico's White Sands National Park. That blockbuster find by a

0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:27.120
<v Speaker 1>park employee in twenty nineteen ultimately drew a team of

0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:31.120
<v Speaker 1>researchers from the US Geological Survey to date the seeds

0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:35.080
<v Speaker 1>of a species of grass crushed by the footprints. Their

0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:38.440
<v Speaker 1>dating indicates a time frame at the height of the

0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:42.400
<v Speaker 1>glacial maximum, when it would have been impossible to come

0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:46.880
<v Speaker 1>overland to America. The human footprints aren't the only tracks

0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:50.800
<v Speaker 1>researchers are finding. There are also mammoth tracks and prints

0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:55.800
<v Speaker 1>of dire wolves and giant ground sloths. In one fascinating interaction,

0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:59.240
<v Speaker 1>the tracks appear to show that a young woman carrying

0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.600
<v Speaker 1>a child on her hip, who she occasionally put down,

0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.040
<v Speaker 1>walked a stretch of lake shore and returned by the

0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:09.160
<v Speaker 1>same path, which in the interval both a mammoth and

0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:13.480
<v Speaker 1>a ground sloth crossed. The mammoth paid no obvious attention,

0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.400
<v Speaker 1>but the sloth reacted, rearing on its hind legs and

0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:21.680
<v Speaker 1>what may have been alarm. So far as we now know,

0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:26.280
<v Speaker 1>only a scant few intrepid souls came to America this early.

0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.080
<v Speaker 1>They remind me of Viking visitors to America. A thousand

0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:33.720
<v Speaker 1>years ago, their numbers must have been small, with much

0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:42.480
<v Speaker 1>of America still empty of humans. So ten thousand years later,

0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.960
<v Speaker 1>the elephant hunters we now call Clovis made up the

0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:50.840
<v Speaker 1>first human culture to spread across all the Americas, an

0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:55.880
<v Speaker 1>overlan arrival that became a rapidly advancing wave thirteen thousand

0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:59.600
<v Speaker 1>years ago. The rapidity of their spreads suggesting that they

0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:03.320
<v Speaker 1>uncomp hundred few, if any, other human cultures along the way.

0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:08.880
<v Speaker 1>Clovis people occupied every American state from Alaska to Florida

0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:13.200
<v Speaker 1>for more than three centuries until a mature United States

0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.560
<v Speaker 1>spread coast to coast. In fact, Clovis stood as the

0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:21.000
<v Speaker 1>sole human culture that once draped across our entire country.

0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:26.800
<v Speaker 1>So for three centuries, a very long time ago, America

0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:31.600
<v Speaker 1>was Clovisia the Beautiful. We are still struggling to understand them.

0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:35.320
<v Speaker 1>They left no oral or written histories of their monarchs

0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.800
<v Speaker 1>or any defining events. We have no sense of their

0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:42.680
<v Speaker 1>gods or the philosophies they believed in, or what language

0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.960
<v Speaker 1>or family of languages they spoke. We know a great

0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:48.960
<v Speaker 1>deal about their tools, and we're developing a sense of

0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:52.280
<v Speaker 1>them from their bones and more recently, from their genetics,

0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:56.840
<v Speaker 1>but starting thirteen thousand and fifty years ago and lasting

0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:00.280
<v Speaker 1>until twelve thousand, seven hundred and fifty years ago, the

0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:04.160
<v Speaker 1>Clovisians placed their stamp on the country and its animals

0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:08.520
<v Speaker 1>and changed the continent. Their name comes from the place

0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:12.160
<v Speaker 1>where we first became aware of their existence, an ancient

0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.800
<v Speaker 1>arroyo on the outskirts of the small town of Clovis,

0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:33.880
<v Speaker 1>New Mexico, on the windswept southern high Plains. Getting in

0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.560
<v Speaker 1>close to wild creatures holds a fascination that resonates because

0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:42.640
<v Speaker 1>it taps ancient imperatives still within us. The relationship between

0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:47.520
<v Speaker 1>prey and their predators involves learning curves, and each side

0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:51.000
<v Speaker 1>is very good at the algorithm, but prey do have

0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:55.120
<v Speaker 1>to learn. Numerous examples from around the world testify that

0:16:55.240 --> 0:17:00.320
<v Speaker 1>upon initially encountering humans, many wild creatures did not associate

0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:03.640
<v Speaker 1>us with a threat. There is a term of art

0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:09.040
<v Speaker 1>for this biological first contact. Wild animals had to learn

0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:12.760
<v Speaker 1>to be afraid of us. Many died standing and looking,

0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:18.000
<v Speaker 1>never absorbing the lesson. Finding naive animals that were easy

0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.760
<v Speaker 1>for human hunters was a powerful motive for our species

0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:26.040
<v Speaker 1>migrations around the world. But just who were these Clovis

0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:30.240
<v Speaker 1>people who left so many sites across America, more than

0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:35.560
<v Speaker 1>twenty excavated ones so far, including some seventy butchered elephants.

0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:40.040
<v Speaker 1>One recent theory that briefly achieved traction in places like

0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:44.960
<v Speaker 1>National Geographic came from the Smithsonian's Dennis Stanford, who believed

0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:48.760
<v Speaker 1>that the direct ancestors of the Clovist people reached America

0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:52.919
<v Speaker 1>eighteen thousand years ago from Europe. To say that the

0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:58.439
<v Speaker 1>scientific community scoffed at Stanford's across Atlantic ice claims barely

0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:02.480
<v Speaker 1>does justice to the profound skepticism that followed it. While

0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:07.320
<v Speaker 1>Paleolithic hunters in Europe and America did pursue similar megafauna

0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:11.840
<v Speaker 1>and flint points crafted by Western Europe's soul Utrean culture

0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:17.520
<v Speaker 1>superficially resembled Clovis points, other researchers dismissed Stanford's claims that

0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:21.600
<v Speaker 1>the two groups were the same people. Linguistic and genetic

0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:27.720
<v Speaker 1>conclusions have since refuted Stanford's argument. Once scientists were able

0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:32.680
<v Speaker 1>to analyze genomic evidence from archaeological sites, they quickly confirmed

0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:37.320
<v Speaker 1>a trail of genetic kinship stretching from Siberia rather than

0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:41.359
<v Speaker 1>Europe into the Americas. We now suspect that the people

0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:46.240
<v Speaker 1>who ultimately swept into America first spent several thousand years

0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:50.880
<v Speaker 1>on the bearing Land Bridge itself, the so called Baringian standstill,

0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:56.480
<v Speaker 1>apparently awaiting more favorable conditions to move southward. That long

0:18:56.560 --> 0:19:00.400
<v Speaker 1>pause in Beringia may have produced humanity's first domestic cication

0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.800
<v Speaker 1>of another animal engaged in their own return to America

0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:09.359
<v Speaker 1>twenty five thousand years ago, gray wolves were abundant in Beringia.

0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:12.879
<v Speaker 1>Since human hunters only ate the fattest parts of the

0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:16.960
<v Speaker 1>animals they killed, they had left over lean portions they

0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:20.040
<v Speaker 1>were willing to share. Some of the wolves had a

0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:24.440
<v Speaker 1>mutation that made them hyper social, and puppies with that

0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:28.240
<v Speaker 1>gene may have been able to bond with humans. There

0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:33.080
<v Speaker 1>probably also were wolf puppies, known today as gifted word

0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:37.840
<v Speaker 1>learning animals capable of picking up human language. By the

0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.480
<v Speaker 1>time the two species got to America, humans and their

0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:45.440
<v Speaker 1>tamed wolves had formed a partnership for the rest of history,

0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:54.320
<v Speaker 1>or so goes one theory about dog domestication. Clovis genetics

0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:58.160
<v Speaker 1>are best represented by a male toddler from a twelve thousand,

0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:02.640
<v Speaker 1>eight hundred year old burial in Montana. He's known as

0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:06.040
<v Speaker 1>the Anzac Child, and he's from a site not far

0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:10.159
<v Speaker 1>from today's Bozeman. The Clovis Child was buried with a

0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:14.880
<v Speaker 1>large cache of artifacts that included eight Clovis points painted

0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:18.439
<v Speaker 1>in red ochre after he played an epic role in

0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:22.560
<v Speaker 1>reconstructing a history of two continents. In twenty fourteen, the

0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:27.840
<v Speaker 1>Onzac Boy was reburied by local tribes in Montana's Shields River,

0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:32.840
<v Speaker 1>near where he had lain for nearly thirteen thousand years.

0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:37.639
<v Speaker 1>While we have no surviving mammoth or mastodon populations to study,

0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:41.040
<v Speaker 1>we do know a good deal about Asian elephant natural history,

0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:45.400
<v Speaker 1>and if this closest living relative of mammos offers clues,

0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:50.800
<v Speaker 1>America's ancient elephants would have been highly intelligent creatures, especially

0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:56.880
<v Speaker 1>acute in what biologists called situational intelligence. Their trunks were

0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:00.719
<v Speaker 1>elephant analogus, who are opposable thumbs with as many as

0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:06.320
<v Speaker 1>one hundred and fifty thousand muscle subunits, as ecological keystone

0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:11.760
<v Speaker 1>creatures whose activities shaped landscapes. Mammos and masdons foraged in

0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:16.920
<v Speaker 1>ways that likely transformed American vegetation the way modern elephants

0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:21.159
<v Speaker 1>do in Africa. They traveled their huge ranges with an

0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:25.679
<v Speaker 1>unusually powerful geographic memory, as a recent study of a

0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:31.000
<v Speaker 1>wooly mammos lifetime movements through Alaska seventeen thousand years ago,

0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:37.199
<v Speaker 1>reconstructed by analyzing strontium isotope ratios that reference geography in

0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:42.520
<v Speaker 1>its tusks, now indicate all elephants are what biologists refer

0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:46.080
<v Speaker 1>to as case species, meaning they do not come into

0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:50.320
<v Speaker 1>sexual maturity until they're fifteen years old or older, a

0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:54.520
<v Speaker 1>state brought on by periodic must The pacoderm version of

0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:59.919
<v Speaker 1>sexual heat from insemination to giving birth probably took two years,

0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:05.480
<v Speaker 1>a generational turnover slow enough to make population recovery difficult

0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:08.439
<v Speaker 1>in the face of a new threat, and by the

0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:13.080
<v Speaker 1>time humans were entering America, mammoths, mastodons, and other archaic

0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:17.119
<v Speaker 1>elephant species were already suffering from a background rate of

0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:20.800
<v Speaker 1>extinctions that had been going on for seventy five thousand years.

0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:28.520
<v Speaker 1>But as the Rancho, Librea, Folsome and Clovis sites show,

0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:32.920
<v Speaker 1>elephants and big cats and many other remarkable creatures still

0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:36.520
<v Speaker 1>occupied the ground where we now commute and go to

0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:41.840
<v Speaker 1>sleep in our suburbs. Only they all disappeared quite suddenly

0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:48.200
<v Speaker 1>and mysteriously long long ago. That disappearance is one of

0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:52.879
<v Speaker 1>the most profound ecological and aesthetic events of continental history.

0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:57.720
<v Speaker 1>As Darwin's ally. In The Breakthrough to Understanding Natural Selection

0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:02.760
<v Speaker 1>and Evolution, Alfred Russell Wallace wrote, in fact, we present

0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:08.400
<v Speaker 1>day Americans live in a zoological impoverished world from which

0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:13.720
<v Speaker 1>all the hugest and fiercest and strangest forms have recently disappeared.

0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:19.600
<v Speaker 1>Wallace was using recently in a big history sense. All

0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:24.240
<v Speaker 1>those hugest, fiercest, and strangest animals vanished from America between

0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:28.600
<v Speaker 1>about thirteen thousand and nine thousand years ago. In fact,

0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:33.120
<v Speaker 1>we lost thirty genera and forty species. All of them

0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:37.800
<v Speaker 1>are very largest creatures right down to our present moment.

0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:42.240
<v Speaker 1>These ancient losses make up the most dramatic extinction event

0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:46.680
<v Speaker 1>since humans have been in North America. But science has

0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:50.960
<v Speaker 1>never grouped the so called Pleistocene extinctions with the five

0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:56.000
<v Speaker 1>great planetary extinctions of Earth history. It's different from all

0:23:56.040 --> 0:23:59.800
<v Speaker 1>of those, which were global extinguished life on both land

0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:03.359
<v Speaker 1>and in the oceans, and showed no size bias in

0:24:03.400 --> 0:24:07.840
<v Speaker 1>the creatures they marked for disappearance. The Pleistocene losses didn't

0:24:07.880 --> 0:24:11.880
<v Speaker 1>happen in oceans in Africa or in Southern Asia. They

0:24:11.920 --> 0:24:16.600
<v Speaker 1>devastated life on Earth only in Eurasia, North America, South

0:24:16.640 --> 0:24:22.280
<v Speaker 1>America and Australia. Something very odd seemed to be unfolding

0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:26.200
<v Speaker 1>in specific parts of the planet during the late Pleistocene,

0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:30.720
<v Speaker 1>but there is a common thread. Those were all places

0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:34.960
<v Speaker 1>where human predators out of Africa seeking out large animals

0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:40.120
<v Speaker 1>to hunt, were arriving for the first time. The Pleistocene extinctions,

0:24:40.200 --> 0:24:43.560
<v Speaker 1>in other words, looked very much like the first act

0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:48.199
<v Speaker 1>of the anthroposcene, the beginnings of what we now called

0:24:48.520 --> 0:25:02.800
<v Speaker 1>the sixth Extinction. This has been a prelude to introducing

0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:05.840
<v Speaker 1>you to a scientist who was able to imagine how

0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:09.679
<v Speaker 1>this might have happened. Paul Martin, who passed away in

0:25:09.720 --> 0:25:13.520
<v Speaker 1>twenty ten, was one of the country's late twentieth century

0:25:13.560 --> 0:25:17.520
<v Speaker 1>intellectual giants. He was also lucky enough to have a

0:25:17.560 --> 0:25:22.399
<v Speaker 1>brand new tool to play with, radiocarbon dating, invented in

0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:26.240
<v Speaker 1>nineteen forty six by Willard Libby, who won the Nobel

0:25:26.359 --> 0:25:30.680
<v Speaker 1>Prize for it. That new tool, almost overnight allowed an

0:25:30.760 --> 0:25:35.960
<v Speaker 1>understanding of something very crucial about the Pleistocene extinctions. When

0:25:36.040 --> 0:25:39.919
<v Speaker 1>did the various animals disappear? Exactly, and how did the

0:25:40.080 --> 0:25:43.760
<v Speaker 1>arrival of humans in America line up with those dates.

0:25:45.080 --> 0:25:46.879
<v Speaker 1>I got to meet Martin at a point in his

0:25:47.000 --> 0:25:49.560
<v Speaker 1>career when he seemed to bear a resemblance to a

0:25:49.680 --> 0:25:53.360
<v Speaker 1>target at a shooting range. At a time when politics

0:25:53.400 --> 0:25:57.520
<v Speaker 1>and many university departments embraced the idea of ancient peoples

0:25:57.600 --> 0:26:01.520
<v Speaker 1>as ecological examples for the modern world, there were those

0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:05.480
<v Speaker 1>who saw Martin's argument that early humans were responsible for

0:26:05.600 --> 0:26:11.720
<v Speaker 1>extinctions as politically incorrect. The popular Native American writer Vine

0:26:11.760 --> 0:26:16.440
<v Speaker 1>Deloria Junior was vitriolic in his condemnation of Martin, which

0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:22.000
<v Speaker 1>I could tell mortified and baffled the paleobiologists. Between eighteen

0:26:22.080 --> 0:26:26.160
<v Speaker 1>thousand and twelve thousand years ago, the Solutrean culture had

0:26:26.240 --> 0:26:31.320
<v Speaker 1>similarly wiped out Europe's remaining Plecesne creatures. Clovis and Folsom

0:26:31.400 --> 0:26:35.760
<v Speaker 1>were not Indian stories, Martin insisted, they were big history

0:26:35.960 --> 0:26:39.800
<v Speaker 1>human stories. Martin and I arranged to get together on

0:26:39.880 --> 0:26:43.000
<v Speaker 1>his visit to the University of Montana, where I taught.

0:26:43.800 --> 0:26:47.399
<v Speaker 1>After two days of wide ranging conversations, I began to

0:26:47.440 --> 0:26:50.720
<v Speaker 1>think about Martin in the manner of a Stephen Hawking.

0:26:51.480 --> 0:26:56.159
<v Speaker 1>When his body had slowed from Polio. His vast energy

0:26:56.240 --> 0:27:01.359
<v Speaker 1>had lit a turbocharger that accelerated his mind. The crux

0:27:01.400 --> 0:27:04.760
<v Speaker 1>of the Pleistocene story Martin told me was that North

0:27:04.800 --> 0:27:08.920
<v Speaker 1>America was a continental island remote from the evolution of humans,

0:27:09.240 --> 0:27:12.200
<v Speaker 1>and when we finally arrived in numbers in the form

0:27:12.240 --> 0:27:16.119
<v Speaker 1>of the Clovisians, the well known slaughter humans had made

0:27:16.240 --> 0:27:20.280
<v Speaker 1>on island biologies all over the world came to America.

0:27:21.200 --> 0:27:25.560
<v Speaker 1>We were a brilliant new predator with sophisticated weapons, dogs

0:27:25.760 --> 0:27:30.440
<v Speaker 1>and fire and baggage like rats. The predation we engaged

0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:35.080
<v Speaker 1>in changed local ecologies so substantially that animals evolved in

0:27:35.160 --> 0:27:39.800
<v Speaker 1>our absence couldn't survive once we arrived. I realized Martin

0:27:39.920 --> 0:27:42.879
<v Speaker 1>was giving me a command performance of his Planet of

0:27:43.000 --> 0:27:47.320
<v Speaker 1>Doom theory, a modern version now buttressed with science, history

0:27:47.320 --> 0:27:50.800
<v Speaker 1>and details. As Martin put it in his two thousand

0:27:50.800 --> 0:27:55.040
<v Speaker 1>and six Twilight of the Mammos, I argue that virtually

0:27:55.119 --> 0:27:58.480
<v Speaker 1>all extinctions of wild animals in the last fifty thousand

0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:03.200
<v Speaker 1>years are anthropose. By the time the destruction was over,

0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:07.520
<v Speaker 1>only a handful of America's biggest animals remained, and those

0:28:07.600 --> 0:28:12.320
<v Speaker 1>were either European or Asian like caribou or bison that

0:28:12.480 --> 0:28:16.320
<v Speaker 1>had prior experience with humans, or they were native ones

0:28:16.480 --> 0:28:20.520
<v Speaker 1>like pronghorns that carried so little fat they offered little

0:28:20.560 --> 0:28:26.960
<v Speaker 1>inducement for hunters. Otherwise, the Clovisians erased millions of years

0:28:27.000 --> 0:28:33.159
<v Speaker 1>of evolution. In two thousand and one, independently of Martin,

0:28:33.520 --> 0:28:38.960
<v Speaker 1>an Australian paleobiologist at the Smithsonian, John Alroy developed a

0:28:39.000 --> 0:28:44.480
<v Speaker 1>computer model to test this American extinction story. Alroy's computer's

0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:50.240
<v Speaker 1>modeled an absolutely classic ecological release by fifteen hundred years

0:28:50.280 --> 0:28:54.400
<v Speaker 1>after the human arrival, accepting a few scattered remnants hunters

0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:57.720
<v Speaker 1>had overlooked, but were now too separated to exchange their

0:28:57.800 --> 0:29:02.280
<v Speaker 1>genes and dying out from lack of genetic diversity. Seventy

0:29:02.320 --> 0:29:07.760
<v Speaker 1>five percent of America's Pleistocene bestiari had been gutted. Alroy's

0:29:07.760 --> 0:29:11.880
<v Speaker 1>computer model predicted the extinction or survival of thirty two

0:29:12.120 --> 0:29:17.880
<v Speaker 1>of forty one Clovis prey species. He concluded, long before

0:29:17.920 --> 0:29:22.160
<v Speaker 1>the dawn of written history, human impacts were responsible for

0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:29.160
<v Speaker 1>a fantastically destructive wave of extinctions around the globe. Southeast

0:29:29.240 --> 0:29:32.920
<v Speaker 1>of present day Tucson along the Santa Cruz River, there

0:29:32.960 --> 0:29:37.160
<v Speaker 1>are three famous Clovis sites, you suspect and long ago

0:29:37.240 --> 0:29:40.440
<v Speaker 1>Clovis Lord. This may have been a legendary event, or

0:29:40.800 --> 0:29:43.760
<v Speaker 1>given that many similar stories follow it in the historical

0:29:43.840 --> 0:29:47.960
<v Speaker 1>record of America, maybe what transpired here wasn't legendary at all,

0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:51.320
<v Speaker 1>just the way things were done. What seems to have

0:29:51.360 --> 0:29:55.040
<v Speaker 1>happened is that at the most westerly location now call

0:29:55.160 --> 0:29:59.200
<v Speaker 1>the Leaner site, a Clovis band surrounded a family group

0:29:59.320 --> 0:30:03.760
<v Speaker 1>of fifteen mammoths. The herd apparently huddled together for defense

0:30:03.880 --> 0:30:08.920
<v Speaker 1>against the assault, but thirteen of them, all adolescents and calves,

0:30:09.240 --> 0:30:15.000
<v Speaker 1>died in the spot. Archaeologists found exactly thirteen Clovis points

0:30:15.080 --> 0:30:18.160
<v Speaker 1>in their remains, but it must not have been an

0:30:18.160 --> 0:30:22.520
<v Speaker 1>easy thing. In different locations a few miles away, the

0:30:22.720 --> 0:30:28.480
<v Speaker 1>Escapool and Naco sites, archaeologists found two adult mammoths who

0:30:28.480 --> 0:30:32.640
<v Speaker 1>had apparently fled the slaughter. The large male had died

0:30:32.680 --> 0:30:36.040
<v Speaker 1>with two Clovis points in his body, but the female

0:30:36.120 --> 0:30:38.719
<v Speaker 1>must have put up a tremendous fight to protect her

0:30:38.800 --> 0:30:43.600
<v Speaker 1>young before mortally wounded. She had fled, and her remains

0:30:43.720 --> 0:30:48.200
<v Speaker 1>there were no fewer than eight embedded Clovis points. The

0:30:48.280 --> 0:30:56.760
<v Speaker 1>hunters who killed those mammoths appeared to have been absolute professionals.

0:30:56.800 --> 0:31:01.080
<v Speaker 1>Our best strategy for understanding America's pleistocenic distinctions may be

0:31:01.200 --> 0:31:06.120
<v Speaker 1>on an animal by animal basis. Clovis hunters almost certainly

0:31:06.160 --> 0:31:09.760
<v Speaker 1>wiped out the elephants and folsome people the giant bison,

0:31:10.240 --> 0:31:14.120
<v Speaker 1>but animals like dire wolves, giant beavers, and big cats

0:31:14.200 --> 0:31:17.720
<v Speaker 1>may have simply been out competed by gray wolves and

0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:23.560
<v Speaker 1>modern beavers and cougars. Smaller size and earlier sexual maturity

0:31:23.760 --> 0:31:28.040
<v Speaker 1>fitted the replacements better for an America now inhabited by

0:31:28.120 --> 0:31:31.959
<v Speaker 1>human predators. The first examples on the continent for what

0:31:32.080 --> 0:31:39.320
<v Speaker 1>biologists called anthropogenic evolution. Horses and camels do remain enigmas.

0:31:39.960 --> 0:31:44.280
<v Speaker 1>Sites of Clovis age in southern Alberta and Colorado show

0:31:44.520 --> 0:31:48.440
<v Speaker 1>horse and camel kills, but nothing like the vast number

0:31:48.480 --> 0:31:53.280
<v Speaker 1>of horses from Solutrean sites in Europe. And why did

0:31:53.400 --> 0:31:58.360
<v Speaker 1>various camelids survive in South America, providing later native people

0:31:58.520 --> 0:32:10.480
<v Speaker 1>domestic possibilities, but not farther north. As for the Clovisians themselves,

0:32:10.600 --> 0:32:15.560
<v Speaker 1>they remained maddenly elusive. They are us, of course, but

0:32:15.640 --> 0:32:19.080
<v Speaker 1>it's difficult even to know your recent relatives at all.

0:32:19.160 --> 0:32:22.360
<v Speaker 1>You have to go on are their tools and diet preferences.

0:32:23.280 --> 0:32:26.240
<v Speaker 1>We know that with the fluted point, a purely American

0:32:26.280 --> 0:32:30.160
<v Speaker 1>invention not found in Siberia, their thinkers had solved the

0:32:30.320 --> 0:32:35.280
<v Speaker 1>ancient technology hurdle of affixing points solidly to wooden spears

0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:40.120
<v Speaker 1>or darts. We also know that they were consumer connoisseurs

0:32:40.120 --> 0:32:43.880
<v Speaker 1>of the best the world had to offer. Clovis artisans

0:32:43.920 --> 0:32:48.600
<v Speaker 1>fashion their toolkit from the hardest, sharpest, most vividly colored

0:32:48.640 --> 0:32:52.760
<v Speaker 1>flints and church in North America whose outprops existed as

0:32:52.800 --> 0:32:57.200
<v Speaker 1>a geographic atlas in their heads. They journeyed hundreds of

0:32:57.240 --> 0:33:01.120
<v Speaker 1>miles to those sources, as if on quests special magic.

0:33:01.960 --> 0:33:06.720
<v Speaker 1>Some of their tool caches featured multiple gorgeous, unused points

0:33:06.760 --> 0:33:10.160
<v Speaker 1>of eight to nine inches in leaked with sacred red

0:33:10.240 --> 0:33:14.800
<v Speaker 1>ochre still adhering to them. One Clovis mystery has always

0:33:14.800 --> 0:33:18.880
<v Speaker 1>been why no art? Why nothing? Like the grand paintings

0:33:18.920 --> 0:33:22.920
<v Speaker 1>of animals on the cave walls of Chauvet, Lasco and

0:33:23.040 --> 0:33:27.920
<v Speaker 1>Alzamira in Europe, there are pebbles in size with crosshatching.

0:33:28.320 --> 0:33:31.880
<v Speaker 1>There's an elephant carved into a piece of ivory. Otherwise

0:33:32.080 --> 0:33:34.880
<v Speaker 1>we had no hints what they thought of the animals

0:33:34.920 --> 0:33:39.160
<v Speaker 1>they hunted, of America, of their lives in general. That

0:33:39.280 --> 0:33:42.480
<v Speaker 1>may be changing with a new twenty nineteen to twenty

0:33:42.560 --> 0:33:45.960
<v Speaker 1>twenty investigation of the rock art of a region in

0:33:46.040 --> 0:33:51.360
<v Speaker 1>the Colombian Amazon known as Sarania La Lindosa. But we'll

0:33:51.440 --> 0:33:54.479
<v Speaker 1>have to wait to see if the images there really

0:33:54.520 --> 0:33:59.080
<v Speaker 1>are Clovis or fulsome ones. One recent theory is that

0:33:59.120 --> 0:34:03.760
<v Speaker 1>the Clovisians may have been a Northern Hemisphere wild type,

0:34:04.200 --> 0:34:10.080
<v Speaker 1>a group of hyper aggressive Siberian vikings. According to modern science,

0:34:10.200 --> 0:34:14.920
<v Speaker 1>a high fat diet is a strong trigger for enhanced testosterone.

0:34:15.320 --> 0:34:19.719
<v Speaker 1>But who they were really is us. My twenty three

0:34:19.800 --> 0:34:22.960
<v Speaker 1>ande meters profile shows three percent of my genes are

0:34:23.080 --> 0:34:26.480
<v Speaker 1>Native Americans, a common figure for those of us whose

0:34:26.520 --> 0:34:31.000
<v Speaker 1>European ancestors arrived in America three hundred or more years ago.

0:34:31.880 --> 0:34:37.000
<v Speaker 1>Clovis heredity is within us. The Clovis story resonates because

0:34:37.040 --> 0:34:41.799
<v Speaker 1>we imagine them as ancient versions of ourselves, explorers of

0:34:41.920 --> 0:34:47.239
<v Speaker 1>hidden continents, the last of the masterful hunters of enormous animals,

0:34:47.600 --> 0:34:53.280
<v Speaker 1>the culmination of forty thousand generations of hunters. They must

0:34:53.320 --> 0:34:57.360
<v Speaker 1>have had a sense of that timeless tradition But to me,

0:34:57.440 --> 0:35:01.440
<v Speaker 1>the biggest question is this, what did they think? What

0:35:01.600 --> 0:35:04.640
<v Speaker 1>did they do when so many of the animals they

0:35:04.719 --> 0:35:09.160
<v Speaker 1>lived among began to disappear, to dwindle to a last

0:35:09.239 --> 0:35:14.160
<v Speaker 1>few scattered survivors until there were none. What they faced

0:35:14.239 --> 0:35:19.120
<v Speaker 1>is mirrored by our own twenty first century circumstances. Like

0:35:19.280 --> 0:35:23.320
<v Speaker 1>us then lived as their ancestors did, and no doubt

0:35:23.520 --> 0:35:27.080
<v Speaker 1>had every expectation that the world would continue as it

0:35:27.120 --> 0:35:30.640
<v Speaker 1>always had, and so long as there was a Siberia

0:35:30.920 --> 0:35:34.440
<v Speaker 1>or a Baringia or an America out there, it did.

0:35:35.440 --> 0:35:40.200
<v Speaker 1>But Earth proved finite, and so did its animals, much

0:35:40.239 --> 0:35:44.279
<v Speaker 1>as we are doing today. The Clovisians ran into a

0:35:44.400 --> 0:36:00.360
<v Speaker 1>wall of limits.

0:36:02.120 --> 0:36:08.200
<v Speaker 3>When I think about certain areas of inquiry, I think

0:36:08.200 --> 0:36:13.040
<v Speaker 3>that in a lot of spaces there's room for huge discoveries,

0:36:15.280 --> 0:36:20.520
<v Speaker 3>meaning we can find life on another planet. Right, Yeah,

0:36:20.840 --> 0:36:23.600
<v Speaker 3>there could be huge medical you know, you can picture

0:36:24.160 --> 0:36:28.000
<v Speaker 3>where we have some medical breakthrough and like increased life

0:36:28.040 --> 0:36:30.440
<v Speaker 3>expectancy by twenty five percent or fifty percent, Like I

0:36:30.440 --> 0:36:35.080
<v Speaker 3>wouldn't be shocked. But do you feel that our our

0:36:35.239 --> 0:36:43.239
<v Speaker 3>understanding of pre human and early human North America is

0:36:43.280 --> 0:36:47.040
<v Speaker 3>like down to the details now, like it's kind of

0:36:47.120 --> 0:36:49.759
<v Speaker 3>all there, it's just details.

0:36:52.000 --> 0:36:56.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, I tend to think that there are some big

0:36:56.320 --> 0:36:58.120
<v Speaker 1>discoveries yet to be made.

0:36:58.200 --> 0:36:58.439
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:36:58.600 --> 0:37:04.080
<v Speaker 1>Now, I will say that the advent of genomic research,

0:37:05.120 --> 0:37:08.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, on human remains all over the world is

0:37:08.640 --> 0:37:11.640
<v Speaker 1>telling us a lot of stuff that we've never known before.

0:37:12.000 --> 0:37:16.799
<v Speaker 1>And that's kind of the modern version of you know,

0:37:17.040 --> 0:37:21.239
<v Speaker 1>radiocarbon dating in the nineteen fifties and stuff. We've now

0:37:21.360 --> 0:37:27.120
<v Speaker 1>got a way to analyze human remains that is giving

0:37:27.200 --> 0:37:30.200
<v Speaker 1>us a sense of how people spread around the world

0:37:30.239 --> 0:37:33.840
<v Speaker 1>and what connections they had with one another. So my

0:37:33.920 --> 0:37:37.160
<v Speaker 1>guess is, and you know, it's probably a pretty easy

0:37:37.160 --> 0:37:39.240
<v Speaker 1>thing to guess, is that there's got to be something

0:37:39.640 --> 0:37:44.920
<v Speaker 1>big out there, and it's likely to involve something technological

0:37:45.160 --> 0:37:48.640
<v Speaker 1>like those two where you have a sudden breakthrough and

0:37:48.680 --> 0:37:51.120
<v Speaker 1>it's possible to do something you've not been able to

0:37:51.160 --> 0:37:51.720
<v Speaker 1>do before.

0:37:51.800 --> 0:37:55.839
<v Speaker 3>I mean, you find somewhere in South America, you find

0:37:55.840 --> 0:37:59.719
<v Speaker 3>a genetic marker from twelve thousand years ago, and it

0:38:00.080 --> 0:38:00.880
<v Speaker 3>doesn't make sense.

0:38:01.320 --> 0:38:03.480
<v Speaker 1>It doesn't make sense, and you have to and people

0:38:03.560 --> 0:38:05.560
<v Speaker 1>have to explain it, you know, and it may take

0:38:05.560 --> 0:38:08.120
<v Speaker 1>a while. It takes science often a lot of time

0:38:08.239 --> 0:38:10.960
<v Speaker 1>to explain things, and there are a lot of kind

0:38:11.000 --> 0:38:13.439
<v Speaker 1>of false leads and ideas that are put out there

0:38:13.480 --> 0:38:17.839
<v Speaker 1>that don't last. I mean that's just the way you know,

0:38:17.960 --> 0:38:21.120
<v Speaker 1>human knowledge, especially scientific knowledge, works. But yeah, I think

0:38:21.120 --> 0:38:22.759
<v Speaker 1>there's going to be you know, we're going to know

0:38:23.360 --> 0:38:25.680
<v Speaker 1>in the case of the pleciscene extinctions, I think in

0:38:25.719 --> 0:38:28.440
<v Speaker 1>another thirty or forty years, there's going to be something,

0:38:29.080 --> 0:38:32.440
<v Speaker 1>some kind of technological breakthrough that enables us to suddenly

0:38:32.480 --> 0:38:35.680
<v Speaker 1>know a lot more about this than we've known. I mean,

0:38:35.760 --> 0:38:38.919
<v Speaker 1>one to me is the is, you know, the our

0:38:39.160 --> 0:38:43.560
<v Speaker 1>sudden realization that a lack of genetic diversity can be

0:38:43.640 --> 0:38:47.040
<v Speaker 1>pretty murderous on a on a species, because if you

0:38:47.160 --> 0:38:51.160
<v Speaker 1>start separating a population out so it's not possible for

0:38:51.200 --> 0:38:56.239
<v Speaker 1>them to breed anymore and exchange genes, they become they

0:38:56.320 --> 0:38:59.200
<v Speaker 1>become weak. I mean, there are instances where you know,

0:38:59.480 --> 0:39:03.040
<v Speaker 1>it's impossible for them to reproduce, and so I think

0:39:03.160 --> 0:39:07.280
<v Speaker 1>all of that that's another variation obviously of the genetic revolution.

0:39:07.640 --> 0:39:10.959
<v Speaker 1>But I think all those things point to some new

0:39:11.960 --> 0:39:14.759
<v Speaker 1>breakthrough in the future that's you know, it's going to

0:39:14.840 --> 0:39:15.880
<v Speaker 1>be fun to see.

0:39:16.280 --> 0:39:19.200
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I of things like that, and I'm glad

0:39:19.200 --> 0:39:21.000
<v Speaker 3>to hear this, because I was starting to worry that

0:39:21.040 --> 0:39:24.080
<v Speaker 3>it was going to get boring. These questions were going

0:39:24.160 --> 0:39:26.960
<v Speaker 3>to get boring as things just got more like here's

0:39:27.000 --> 0:39:27.520
<v Speaker 3>the story.

0:39:27.800 --> 0:39:29.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, No, I don't think they're going to get boring.

0:39:29.840 --> 0:39:31.640
<v Speaker 1>I think it's going to be it's going to be fun,

0:39:31.680 --> 0:39:34.759
<v Speaker 1>and we're going to still be interested. Uh, you know,

0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:37.920
<v Speaker 1>just like all of us are still interested in this.

0:39:38.320 --> 0:39:41.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, none of us is really trained in the

0:39:41.440 --> 0:39:45.480
<v Speaker 1>fields of paleold biology or anything like that, but we

0:39:45.680 --> 0:39:50.240
<v Speaker 1>find it fascinating to want to understand how this happened,

0:39:50.400 --> 0:39:52.759
<v Speaker 1>and uh, we want to know more about ourselves, and

0:39:52.760 --> 0:39:54.000
<v Speaker 1>that's what a lot of this is about.

0:39:54.600 --> 0:40:00.399
<v Speaker 3>Do you remember the writer, Uh, he's very fun. Any guy,

0:40:00.400 --> 0:40:04.120
<v Speaker 3>the writer Jack hit Oh yeah, yeah. He once observed

0:40:04.160 --> 0:40:06.000
<v Speaker 3>he was taught about that he has a hard time

0:40:06.040 --> 0:40:11.680
<v Speaker 3>taking palaeontology seriously because it was a discipline that he

0:40:11.760 --> 0:40:15.720
<v Speaker 3>found the most knowledge about it was held by thirteen

0:40:15.800 --> 0:40:19.839
<v Speaker 3>year olds. He's talking about dinosaurs.

0:40:19.960 --> 0:40:23.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's true. Yeah, that's true.

0:40:23.800 --> 0:40:26.520
<v Speaker 3>And this is a feel like this stuff like like

0:40:26.600 --> 0:40:29.759
<v Speaker 3>ice age. America is definitely a hobbyist RealD you know,

0:40:29.800 --> 0:40:33.319
<v Speaker 3>I mean, there's a lot of room for hobbyists right, like, like,

0:40:33.360 --> 0:40:35.280
<v Speaker 3>I'm a hobbyist. There's a lot of room for hobbyists.

0:40:35.320 --> 0:40:36.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, that's right.

0:40:36.480 --> 0:40:37.960
<v Speaker 3>You can stay up breast, you know, you can stay

0:40:37.960 --> 0:40:39.480
<v Speaker 3>abreast of the subject.

0:40:39.880 --> 0:40:43.239
<v Speaker 2>I think what's what's there's sort of a tension in

0:40:43.280 --> 0:40:48.320
<v Speaker 2>this subject for me between like when you describe people

0:40:48.400 --> 0:40:52.360
<v Speaker 2>seeking out a new frontier or moving across the landscape

0:40:52.400 --> 0:40:57.280
<v Speaker 2>and being you know, drawn in by certain topographical features.

0:40:57.360 --> 0:41:01.480
<v Speaker 2>It's something that reson with me, and I find it

0:41:01.760 --> 0:41:05.480
<v Speaker 2>sort of part of the human condition. On the other hand,

0:41:05.520 --> 0:41:08.680
<v Speaker 2>there's certain things about these people that are totally unknowable,

0:41:09.719 --> 0:41:13.200
<v Speaker 2>Like you know, even with all of the technological advances

0:41:13.360 --> 0:41:16.520
<v Speaker 2>we have ahead of us, we don't have their voices,

0:41:17.800 --> 0:41:22.640
<v Speaker 2>and we don't even know what their voices sounded like,

0:41:22.960 --> 0:41:28.520
<v Speaker 2>you know. And so whenever I'm playing with this subject

0:41:28.560 --> 0:41:31.680
<v Speaker 2>in my mind, I always get stuck on that sort

0:41:31.680 --> 0:41:37.040
<v Speaker 2>of contradiction between what's very familiar and what is and

0:41:37.120 --> 0:41:39.360
<v Speaker 2>will probably always remain totally alien.

0:41:40.560 --> 0:41:44.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, that part probably will remain completely alien. I mean

0:41:45.000 --> 0:41:49.240
<v Speaker 1>we call you know, we have named these paleol cultures

0:41:49.239 --> 0:41:53.319
<v Speaker 1>in North America, things like Folsome and plain View and Clovis,

0:41:53.680 --> 0:41:59.440
<v Speaker 1>and those are all names of towns near which paleontological

0:41:59.440 --> 0:42:02.320
<v Speaker 1>and archael logical sites were found. I mean, we have

0:42:02.400 --> 0:42:04.760
<v Speaker 1>no idea what they called themselves. They for sure probably

0:42:04.760 --> 0:42:09.160
<v Speaker 1>didn't call themselves Clovisians, you know, or Fulsomites or whatever

0:42:09.160 --> 0:42:12.759
<v Speaker 1>the fulsome term for the people would be. I mean

0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:15.480
<v Speaker 1>they So we don't know that, and we're very likely

0:42:15.520 --> 0:42:19.000
<v Speaker 1>not ever to know that. What I am still a

0:42:19.040 --> 0:42:22.680
<v Speaker 1>little disappointed by, and I'm hoping that this side in

0:42:22.880 --> 0:42:27.719
<v Speaker 1>South America pans out as a as an actual rock

0:42:27.880 --> 0:42:34.239
<v Speaker 1>imagery site for clovis In fulsome is the lack of art,

0:42:34.800 --> 0:42:38.799
<v Speaker 1>especially in comparison to Western Europe, where there's there are

0:42:38.840 --> 0:42:43.600
<v Speaker 1>all these marvelous cave paintings that I mean tell you

0:42:43.680 --> 0:42:46.720
<v Speaker 1>so much about. I mean, they're One of the pieces

0:42:46.760 --> 0:42:48.840
<v Speaker 1>I read when I was researching Well in the World

0:42:49.239 --> 0:42:54.160
<v Speaker 1>was about how the artists at chove A Cave got

0:42:54.239 --> 0:42:59.920
<v Speaker 1>the rhythm of the foot footprints, the feet hitting the

0:43:00.239 --> 0:43:05.800
<v Speaker 1>ground of quadrupeds exactly right. And this particular article said

0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:10.560
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't until the eighteen nineties that modern painters were

0:43:10.640 --> 0:43:14.680
<v Speaker 1>able to get the rhythm of how horse hoofs hit

0:43:14.760 --> 0:43:17.960
<v Speaker 1>the ground when they were running at the same level

0:43:18.239 --> 0:43:22.160
<v Speaker 1>of expertise that these guys did fifteen sixteen thousand years ago,

0:43:22.719 --> 0:43:25.120
<v Speaker 1>and so that's very exciting and tells us a little

0:43:25.160 --> 0:43:29.239
<v Speaker 1>bit about those people. And it's just disappointing that, you know,

0:43:29.280 --> 0:43:31.200
<v Speaker 1>we have nothing like that in North America.

0:43:31.840 --> 0:43:34.200
<v Speaker 3>I'll correct my kids now and then where they'll talk

0:43:34.280 --> 0:43:38.520
<v Speaker 3>about they'll say when cave people were here, and I'll say,

0:43:39.000 --> 0:43:44.480
<v Speaker 3>be careful, because it seems like what you're imagining, like

0:43:44.680 --> 0:43:47.359
<v Speaker 3>it seems like the Ice age people that were here

0:43:47.520 --> 0:43:49.520
<v Speaker 3>didn't have a real affinity for caves.

0:43:51.040 --> 0:43:53.080
<v Speaker 1>Well they probably had, ye.

0:43:53.600 --> 0:43:58.160
<v Speaker 3>They weren't like, they weren't like they're not quite contemporaries.

0:43:58.160 --> 0:44:00.879
<v Speaker 3>But what was happening here twelve thirteen thousand years ago

0:44:01.440 --> 0:44:05.240
<v Speaker 3>was a very similar lifestyle in Western Europe thirty thousand

0:44:05.320 --> 0:44:08.279
<v Speaker 3>years ago. And there are parallels, but there also seems

0:44:08.280 --> 0:44:10.520
<v Speaker 3>to be differences. Like you're saying, like, where's all the

0:44:10.560 --> 0:44:10.960
<v Speaker 3>cave art?

0:44:11.600 --> 0:44:14.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, where's the art? And I mean, and it's interesting

0:44:14.680 --> 0:44:16.920
<v Speaker 1>to me since you brought that up that the first

0:44:17.040 --> 0:44:20.759
<v Speaker 1>archaeologists in North America who were looking for evidence of

0:44:21.040 --> 0:44:24.920
<v Speaker 1>human antiquity here looked in caves. They went to places

0:44:24.960 --> 0:44:28.439
<v Speaker 1>like Carlsbad and stuff and looked in caves because this

0:44:28.680 --> 0:44:31.080
<v Speaker 1>was the I mean, they were thinking by analogy, this

0:44:31.239 --> 0:44:33.440
<v Speaker 1>was the example they had in Western Europe, this is

0:44:33.480 --> 0:44:35.759
<v Speaker 1>where these people are, and so they were looking in

0:44:35.800 --> 0:44:41.520
<v Speaker 1>places like Carlsbad caverns for evidence that early humans in

0:44:41.560 --> 0:44:43.799
<v Speaker 1>North America would have done the same kind of thing.

0:44:44.200 --> 0:44:48.120
<v Speaker 1>And of course, accidentally, on the way back, a guy

0:44:48.160 --> 0:44:50.040
<v Speaker 1>by the name of Edgar Hewett, on the way back

0:44:50.080 --> 0:44:53.160
<v Speaker 1>from one of those expeditions happened to go past the

0:44:53.280 --> 0:44:57.239
<v Speaker 1>Clovis site and had some cowboys say, well, you know,

0:44:57.320 --> 0:44:59.920
<v Speaker 1>we've been finding these kind of strange looking a lot

0:45:00.160 --> 0:45:04.880
<v Speaker 1>urge two like objects here on the ground. No caves

0:45:04.880 --> 0:45:08.600
<v Speaker 1>anywhere around, but they're just kind of lying out here on.

0:45:08.520 --> 0:45:11.120
<v Speaker 3>The plains on what was a wetland.

0:45:11.280 --> 0:45:13.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what was a wetland? And you know, no caves

0:45:14.000 --> 0:45:17.120
<v Speaker 1>around anywhere. So it's kind of one of those ways.

0:45:17.160 --> 0:45:22.360
<v Speaker 1>I think that the people of antiquity, the paleo hunters

0:45:22.400 --> 0:45:27.360
<v Speaker 1>in particular in North America, are pretty damn distinctive from

0:45:27.480 --> 0:45:31.680
<v Speaker 1>the people in Western Europe, And in this particular case,

0:45:31.719 --> 0:45:34.200
<v Speaker 1>I wish the distinction weren't so great, because I would

0:45:34.239 --> 0:45:36.279
<v Speaker 1>love to be able to find some art that they

0:45:36.320 --> 0:45:38.680
<v Speaker 1>did but so far not much.

0:45:42.280 --> 0:45:46.239
<v Speaker 2>Along the lines of like preconceived notions that people have

0:45:46.320 --> 0:45:49.879
<v Speaker 2>when they sort of look at this era of prehistory

0:45:49.880 --> 0:45:52.560
<v Speaker 2>as just sort of one block and then all of

0:45:52.560 --> 0:45:55.840
<v Speaker 2>a sudden, you know, the Stone Age goes to the

0:45:55.840 --> 0:45:59.640
<v Speaker 2>the Bronze Age, something like that. I think one of

0:45:59.640 --> 0:46:02.960
<v Speaker 2>the things that you've always opened my eyes to is

0:46:03.200 --> 0:46:07.920
<v Speaker 2>paying attention to these advancements in technology, which I think

0:46:07.960 --> 0:46:12.040
<v Speaker 2>most people wouldn't think of them as technology. But you know,

0:46:12.080 --> 0:46:16.759
<v Speaker 2>we were just looking at stone points at the Archaeological

0:46:16.760 --> 0:46:19.759
<v Speaker 2>Repository and Laramie, and you look at the level of

0:46:19.880 --> 0:46:24.200
<v Speaker 2>artistry and mastery in these in these objects, and it

0:46:24.360 --> 0:46:27.839
<v Speaker 2>very much is like a technology. It's not like these

0:46:27.840 --> 0:46:33.239
<v Speaker 2>people were trapped in some era, right, there's this there's

0:46:33.280 --> 0:46:36.000
<v Speaker 2>this long history that's played out in just the material

0:46:36.040 --> 0:46:37.280
<v Speaker 2>objects that they leave behind.

0:46:37.560 --> 0:46:39.879
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, and you know, things that to us

0:46:40.080 --> 0:46:46.000
<v Speaker 1>do not look particularly significant, like the flute on the

0:46:46.040 --> 0:46:49.560
<v Speaker 1>sides of Clovis and fulsome points. I mean that you

0:46:49.600 --> 0:46:52.720
<v Speaker 1>can almost miss that when you look at those points,

0:46:52.800 --> 0:46:58.320
<v Speaker 1>but that very clearly was a major technological innovation because

0:46:58.400 --> 0:47:01.920
<v Speaker 1>it finally allowed the you're fastening of a point to

0:47:02.440 --> 0:47:05.520
<v Speaker 1>a dart an add addle dart or a spear, and

0:47:05.560 --> 0:47:09.120
<v Speaker 1>so it was. It was one of those human genius

0:47:09.480 --> 0:47:14.279
<v Speaker 1>breakthroughs where someone realized, if I just you know, make

0:47:14.320 --> 0:47:18.799
<v Speaker 1>a flute, make an indentation running down each side of

0:47:18.840 --> 0:47:23.600
<v Speaker 1>this point, I can now secure my adlett dart to

0:47:23.719 --> 0:47:27.840
<v Speaker 1>it and it won't pop off upon hitting an animal.

0:47:28.160 --> 0:47:32.239
<v Speaker 1>It will stay secure and penetrate through the skin. And

0:47:32.280 --> 0:47:34.400
<v Speaker 1>that's kind of you know, as I said, it's not

0:47:34.520 --> 0:47:36.480
<v Speaker 1>something that you look at and go wow, this is

0:47:36.840 --> 0:47:40.920
<v Speaker 1>like the invention of the model T. Nonetheless, Yeah, for

0:47:41.040 --> 0:47:45.799
<v Speaker 1>these people, it effectively was a huge leap forward. Yeah.

0:47:45.880 --> 0:47:47.720
<v Speaker 3>I want to return for a minute to a comment

0:47:47.760 --> 0:47:53.200
<v Speaker 3>you made about as the picture becomes clear or the

0:47:53.200 --> 0:47:56.399
<v Speaker 3>picture changes about this error we're discussing that you look

0:47:56.520 --> 0:48:03.680
<v Speaker 3>too technological enhancements, technological improvements which might upend some of

0:48:03.719 --> 0:48:05.520
<v Speaker 3>our notions.

0:48:05.920 --> 0:48:06.040
<v Speaker 1>Uh.

0:48:07.040 --> 0:48:08.279
<v Speaker 3>After you said that, it made me think about a

0:48:08.280 --> 0:48:11.799
<v Speaker 3>conversation I had with an anthropologist who focused on the

0:48:11.920 --> 0:48:17.319
<v Speaker 3>like the prices scene Holocene transition at Colorado State, and

0:48:18.000 --> 0:48:21.840
<v Speaker 3>I was kind of saying to him in a discussion,

0:48:21.880 --> 0:48:23.759
<v Speaker 3>I was kind of saying to him like, well, as

0:48:23.800 --> 0:48:29.000
<v Speaker 3>we find more sites, it'll get clearer. And he's really

0:48:29.000 --> 0:48:33.000
<v Speaker 3>pessimistic about about that about sites. I'm like, well, you know,

0:48:33.160 --> 0:48:35.200
<v Speaker 3>some guy building the road and he's like, how many

0:48:35.280 --> 0:48:38.799
<v Speaker 3>roads have we built? I mean, like, look at all

0:48:38.800 --> 0:48:40.440
<v Speaker 3>the roads we built, Look at all the farm fields

0:48:40.440 --> 0:48:43.919
<v Speaker 3>we cleared, and we have a handful. Like I don't

0:48:43.920 --> 0:48:47.040
<v Speaker 3>think increasing road building, you know, at the at the

0:48:47.080 --> 0:48:50.319
<v Speaker 3>decrease rate that we're building roads and clearing fields that

0:48:50.440 --> 0:48:53.000
<v Speaker 3>I don't think it's going to be that it's new sites.

0:48:53.520 --> 0:48:57.560
<v Speaker 3>You know, he really wasn't optimistic about finding crazy sites.

0:48:57.880 --> 0:48:59.920
<v Speaker 3>I think that what I think that we've kind of

0:49:00.200 --> 0:49:03.279
<v Speaker 3>found what is there to find, you know, barring some

0:49:03.440 --> 0:49:08.680
<v Speaker 3>unforeseen thing. But I think that I don't think you

0:49:08.719 --> 0:49:11.759
<v Speaker 3>can go and say the same thing about South America, right,

0:49:11.880 --> 0:49:14.759
<v Speaker 3>especially all that like like areas that are heavily forested

0:49:14.800 --> 0:49:17.520
<v Speaker 3>and jungle areas, like places that haven't been through like

0:49:17.640 --> 0:49:20.640
<v Speaker 3>our dust bowl when we had a good chance to

0:49:20.680 --> 0:49:25.160
<v Speaker 3>see the western landscape stripped clean of top soil and vegetation, Like,

0:49:25.200 --> 0:49:28.799
<v Speaker 3>there could be some amazing stuff laying there. Yeah, it

0:49:28.880 --> 0:49:30.279
<v Speaker 3>rots quicker, but it could be there.

0:49:30.440 --> 0:49:31.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it could be. And I mean, you know, and

0:49:31.960 --> 0:49:35.040
<v Speaker 1>so Lidar, I suppose at this stage of the game,

0:49:35.080 --> 0:49:37.719
<v Speaker 1>I mean that's certainly a technological breakthrough. This enable to

0:49:37.760 --> 0:49:44.080
<v Speaker 1>discovery of all sorts of new particularly buildings mayan structures

0:49:44.160 --> 0:49:47.399
<v Speaker 1>that are suddenly now visible from above in a way

0:49:47.440 --> 0:49:51.719
<v Speaker 1>that they never are on the ground but lightar's, as

0:49:51.800 --> 0:49:54.560
<v Speaker 1>far as I am aware of it, it probably is

0:49:54.719 --> 0:49:57.960
<v Speaker 1>not fine grained enough to do something like the sort

0:49:58.000 --> 0:50:02.160
<v Speaker 1>of archaeological sites that that you're talking about, but I

0:50:02.239 --> 0:50:04.840
<v Speaker 1>kind of wouldn't think so now I tend to agree

0:50:04.880 --> 0:50:08.880
<v Speaker 1>with the anthropologists you were talking to. I think we've

0:50:08.920 --> 0:50:14.200
<v Speaker 1>got the sites. I think what we probably can improve

0:50:14.320 --> 0:50:18.120
<v Speaker 1>the interpretation of those sites with is going to be

0:50:18.960 --> 0:50:25.040
<v Speaker 1>something like these big leaps forward we had with radiocarbon dating,

0:50:25.360 --> 0:50:27.960
<v Speaker 1>which was you know, that was a huge game changer

0:50:28.280 --> 0:50:32.200
<v Speaker 1>seventy five years ago, and now the genomic revolution, the

0:50:32.239 --> 0:50:36.319
<v Speaker 1>genetic revolution, which is another enormous game changer for all

0:50:36.400 --> 0:50:40.120
<v Speaker 1>kinds of things, including these sort of extinctions from the

0:50:40.200 --> 0:50:43.920
<v Speaker 1>Pleistocene Holocene boundary. So I think it's going to be

0:50:43.920 --> 0:50:46.000
<v Speaker 1>something like that. I don't know exactly what it is,

0:50:46.719 --> 0:50:50.160
<v Speaker 1>but it's probably going to be something that subtenly enables

0:50:50.239 --> 0:50:52.239
<v Speaker 1>us to interpret what we have in a way we've

0:50:52.239 --> 0:50:52.840
<v Speaker 1>not been able to.

0:50:54.680 --> 0:50:59.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think what we're talking about here a lot

0:50:59.280 --> 0:51:03.000
<v Speaker 2>is how we can change your understanding of this subject

0:51:03.040 --> 0:51:07.000
<v Speaker 2>looking forward. But I also wonder if you can look

0:51:07.080 --> 0:51:12.239
<v Speaker 2>backward at your own career, just in your lifetime, how

0:51:12.320 --> 0:51:16.360
<v Speaker 2>much has changed in terms of knowledge about this subject,

0:51:16.400 --> 0:51:19.160
<v Speaker 2>and also how conversations have evolved over time.

0:51:21.480 --> 0:51:25.879
<v Speaker 1>Well, I would say, you know, I mean, I may

0:51:25.920 --> 0:51:28.200
<v Speaker 1>look as if I come from the early twentieth century,

0:51:28.239 --> 0:51:34.080
<v Speaker 1>but I'm actually more a mid twentieth century artifact. And

0:51:34.160 --> 0:51:37.760
<v Speaker 1>so I was born at about the time that radiocarbon

0:51:38.520 --> 0:51:45.480
<v Speaker 1>dating won the Nobel Prize for a guy, and I

0:51:45.520 --> 0:51:50.799
<v Speaker 1>have not I will say that during the sixties and

0:51:50.920 --> 0:51:53.640
<v Speaker 1>especially the seventies, the late seventies, when I was in

0:51:53.719 --> 0:52:00.879
<v Speaker 1>graduate school, there was a strong disinclination to believe that

0:52:01.080 --> 0:52:04.000
<v Speaker 1>humans had played much of a role at all. And

0:52:04.600 --> 0:52:08.080
<v Speaker 1>what it reminded is, i've looked back on it now,

0:52:08.480 --> 0:52:10.680
<v Speaker 1>it reminds me of the sort of reluctance that a

0:52:10.680 --> 0:52:14.960
<v Speaker 1>lot of people feel about climate change. It's that humans

0:52:14.960 --> 0:52:18.160
<v Speaker 1>couldn't have done that. We couldn't have done that. I mean,

0:52:18.200 --> 0:52:21.080
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of animals became extinct. That had to have

0:52:21.160 --> 0:52:24.760
<v Speaker 1>been climate That had to have been a comet strike

0:52:25.200 --> 0:52:29.800
<v Speaker 1>that had to have been something other than humans, because

0:52:30.600 --> 0:52:33.240
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there's just no way that's not possible. People

0:52:33.440 --> 0:52:36.400
<v Speaker 1>armed only with ad adomles and spears and so forth

0:52:36.640 --> 0:52:39.480
<v Speaker 1>could not do those sorts of things, And that of

0:52:39.520 --> 0:52:43.160
<v Speaker 1>course played into and went along with this sensibility back

0:52:43.200 --> 0:52:47.520
<v Speaker 1>in those same years where we were kind of in

0:52:47.560 --> 0:52:53.480
<v Speaker 1>a way first discovering native ecology and indigenous knowledge about

0:52:53.520 --> 0:52:57.919
<v Speaker 1>the world, and we were of course looking for some examples,

0:52:58.000 --> 0:53:01.600
<v Speaker 1>looking desperately for some examples of human beings to say,

0:53:02.320 --> 0:53:05.080
<v Speaker 1>these people did it right, here's the way you do it.

0:53:05.400 --> 0:53:08.319
<v Speaker 1>We're not on the right track, we're doing it wrong,

0:53:08.400 --> 0:53:13.000
<v Speaker 1>but they did it correctly. And of course, arguing that

0:53:13.520 --> 0:53:16.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, early arrivals in North America like Clovis and

0:53:16.280 --> 0:53:21.400
<v Speaker 1>fulsome people may have wiped out species that ran against

0:53:21.440 --> 0:53:24.600
<v Speaker 1>that sentiment that, well, we're trying to find in the

0:53:24.680 --> 0:53:29.040
<v Speaker 1>past some humans who really lived well on the environment,

0:53:29.200 --> 0:53:34.839
<v Speaker 1>and so that change I think sometime I don't know,

0:53:34.920 --> 0:53:40.840
<v Speaker 1>probably in the early two thousands, when after one kind

0:53:40.880 --> 0:53:45.440
<v Speaker 1>of alternative explanation after another was advanced and none of

0:53:45.480 --> 0:53:48.239
<v Speaker 1>them really seemed to work. They never did manage to

0:53:48.280 --> 0:53:51.880
<v Speaker 1>convince many people. I mean, you know, Ross McFee of

0:53:51.920 --> 0:53:55.200
<v Speaker 1>the American Museum and Natural History advanced. Well, maybe some

0:53:55.280 --> 0:54:00.080
<v Speaker 1>new disease swept through North America and killed everything. Well,

0:54:00.080 --> 0:54:03.160
<v Speaker 1>of course there was no candidate disease. And then the

0:54:03.160 --> 0:54:06.719
<v Speaker 1>other problem was, most diseases don't kill everything. I mean,

0:54:07.200 --> 0:54:10.680
<v Speaker 1>they usually leave some piece of a population that often

0:54:10.719 --> 0:54:13.400
<v Speaker 1>rebuilds with immunity. I mean, all of us are examples

0:54:13.760 --> 0:54:17.560
<v Speaker 1>of Old World diseases that killed many of those that

0:54:17.640 --> 0:54:21.840
<v Speaker 1>our ancestors survived and allowed us to be born today.

0:54:22.520 --> 0:54:27.319
<v Speaker 1>So alternative explanations have not so far really worked. And

0:54:27.360 --> 0:54:29.640
<v Speaker 1>what I've kind of been noticing in the last ten

0:54:29.719 --> 0:54:33.399
<v Speaker 1>or fifteen years has been a kind of a reluctant

0:54:33.960 --> 0:54:36.480
<v Speaker 1>I would say, reluctant, but still a sort of a

0:54:36.520 --> 0:54:43.200
<v Speaker 1>growing consensus that the human arrival in North America still

0:54:43.360 --> 0:54:47.080
<v Speaker 1>seems to be the best explanation we have for what

0:54:47.239 --> 0:54:50.400
<v Speaker 1>happened to all those animals. And what I ended up

0:54:50.560 --> 0:54:52.840
<v Speaker 1>arguing in Wild New World is that I think, you know,

0:54:52.920 --> 0:54:56.160
<v Speaker 1>we talk a lot about the sixth extinction today. I

0:54:56.160 --> 0:55:00.080
<v Speaker 1>think the six extinction started thirty five thousand years ago.

0:55:00.640 --> 0:55:03.520
<v Speaker 1>I mean when human started spreading around the world. Yeah,

0:55:03.560 --> 0:55:07.120
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's just in contrast to an asteroid strike

0:55:07.160 --> 0:55:10.080
<v Speaker 1>which wipes out seventy five percent of Earth's life in

0:55:10.719 --> 0:55:13.120
<v Speaker 1>a matter of a few weeks. This has just been

0:55:13.160 --> 0:55:18.040
<v Speaker 1>a thirty five thousand sort of slow motion extinction that's

0:55:18.080 --> 0:55:21.600
<v Speaker 1>been going on for a very very long time, and

0:55:21.680 --> 0:55:24.080
<v Speaker 1>so it's good for us to be alarmed about a

0:55:24.120 --> 0:55:26.600
<v Speaker 1>six extinction. I just sometimes try to point out to

0:55:26.680 --> 0:55:29.160
<v Speaker 1>people I think this has actually been happening for a

0:55:29.200 --> 0:55:29.760
<v Speaker 1>long time.

0:55:31.080 --> 0:55:35.560
<v Speaker 3>I recently had a discussion with an attorney who's Native

0:55:35.560 --> 0:55:40.960
<v Speaker 3>American and he works in repatriation, and his particular focus

0:55:41.080 --> 0:55:49.040
<v Speaker 3>is on getting the remains of his ancestors back from museums. Yeah,

0:55:49.560 --> 0:55:53.360
<v Speaker 3>I said to him, I said, would you ever strike

0:55:53.400 --> 0:55:59.440
<v Speaker 3>a deal where they get a gram of each of

0:55:59.440 --> 0:56:03.799
<v Speaker 3>those bones and then you get the bones back? And

0:56:03.840 --> 0:56:08.120
<v Speaker 3>he said, we would never even consider something like that.

0:56:11.360 --> 0:56:14.880
<v Speaker 3>I don't expect you to answer this, but like, what

0:56:14.920 --> 0:56:20.279
<v Speaker 3>would be some things that you consider when you think

0:56:20.320 --> 0:56:25.680
<v Speaker 3>of the tension around a desire to study apply modern

0:56:26.000 --> 0:56:33.160
<v Speaker 3>analytics to human remains, and where that rubs against cultural

0:56:33.239 --> 0:56:40.240
<v Speaker 3>sensitivities about playing with remains of someone that you rightfully

0:56:40.320 --> 0:56:44.319
<v Speaker 3>or wrongfully consider to be your ancestor, even if you're

0:56:44.360 --> 0:56:48.560
<v Speaker 3>separated by nine thousand and ten thousand years from them.

0:56:48.920 --> 0:56:50.479
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's really like what kind.

0:56:50.360 --> 0:56:52.600
<v Speaker 3>Of things bounce around in your head. I'm not asking

0:56:52.600 --> 0:56:54.000
<v Speaker 3>you to say what we ought to do, but like,

0:56:54.000 --> 0:56:55.160
<v Speaker 3>how do you even approach that?

0:56:55.280 --> 0:56:59.000
<v Speaker 1>Right? Well, what, here's what I kind of suspect. I

0:56:59.120 --> 0:57:04.839
<v Speaker 1>think we're living through a moment, and I think the

0:57:05.000 --> 0:57:13.040
<v Speaker 1>moment has been caused by the previous lack of respect

0:57:13.280 --> 0:57:18.760
<v Speaker 1>that so many bone merchants in the eighteenth and nineteenth

0:57:18.760 --> 0:57:22.320
<v Speaker 1>and twentieth centuries brought to the game of archaeology, where

0:57:22.360 --> 0:57:28.560
<v Speaker 1>they paid not the slightest attention to the desires wants

0:57:29.040 --> 0:57:33.080
<v Speaker 1>of the local people, who very well could be connected

0:57:33.160 --> 0:57:39.680
<v Speaker 1>to the ruins or the excavations that they're doing on

0:57:39.800 --> 0:57:44.640
<v Speaker 1>human remains. And so what I think is that we're

0:57:44.680 --> 0:57:47.640
<v Speaker 1>experiencing a moment that's kind of a backlash against that.

0:57:48.760 --> 0:57:51.080
<v Speaker 1>And I tend to be one of these kind of

0:57:51.080 --> 0:57:54.200
<v Speaker 1>people who thinks that, you know, we're really kind of

0:57:54.240 --> 0:57:58.280
<v Speaker 1>all the same, actually, and what we're interested in is

0:57:58.360 --> 0:58:01.640
<v Speaker 1>the human story, the big story of all of us,

0:58:01.680 --> 0:58:05.040
<v Speaker 1>which is why I'm intrigued by humans coming out of Africa,

0:58:05.040 --> 0:58:08.880
<v Speaker 1>spreading through Asia, coming to North America, going to South America,

0:58:09.400 --> 0:58:11.480
<v Speaker 1>and I know that people get hung up on the

0:58:11.520 --> 0:58:14.640
<v Speaker 1>idea of Okay, this particular culture has this view of

0:58:14.640 --> 0:58:18.040
<v Speaker 1>how the world should be conducted and how scientific research

0:58:18.040 --> 0:58:21.880
<v Speaker 1>could be conducted. But I am very much interested in

0:58:21.960 --> 0:58:28.360
<v Speaker 1>the big story of humanity, and I think ultimately most

0:58:28.440 --> 0:58:31.800
<v Speaker 1>people are interested in that. And so I think when

0:58:31.880 --> 0:58:36.560
<v Speaker 1>we get past this moment where we're sort of boomeranging

0:58:36.720 --> 0:58:41.040
<v Speaker 1>from centuries where we had no respect for the remains

0:58:41.040 --> 0:58:44.680
<v Speaker 1>of these people, that in another who knows how long,

0:58:44.800 --> 0:58:46.960
<v Speaker 1>but in another century. In fact, I know need of

0:58:47.040 --> 0:58:50.680
<v Speaker 1>people who have already reached this position where they too

0:58:50.840 --> 0:58:53.840
<v Speaker 1>are intrigued and interested and they want to know. And

0:58:53.880 --> 0:58:56.120
<v Speaker 1>so I think that at some point in the future,

0:58:56.160 --> 0:58:58.160
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how far out it is, that there

0:58:58.160 --> 0:59:03.840
<v Speaker 1>will be some relaxing of that kind of reluctance to

0:59:03.880 --> 0:59:07.240
<v Speaker 1>allow science to try to answer some of these great questions.

0:59:07.280 --> 0:59:10.120
<v Speaker 1>I just think it's a you know, the pendulum has

0:59:10.200 --> 0:59:15.840
<v Speaker 1>swung at the moment at a to a degree that

0:59:17.680 --> 0:59:20.480
<v Speaker 1>Native people are they don't want this to happen. Yeah,

0:59:20.520 --> 0:59:24.280
<v Speaker 1>but I think it'll swing back. Yeah.

0:59:24.280 --> 0:59:30.400
<v Speaker 2>I think on Steve's on Steve's question, there there's implicit

0:59:30.440 --> 0:59:36.160
<v Speaker 2>in that, is this question about the scope of time

0:59:36.280 --> 0:59:40.600
<v Speaker 2>that we're talking about when we talk about people arriving

0:59:40.680 --> 0:59:46.440
<v Speaker 2>in North America and from the place to scene extinctions

0:59:46.560 --> 0:59:49.840
<v Speaker 2>up until just say fifteen hundred, and I wonder if

0:59:49.880 --> 0:59:53.840
<v Speaker 2>you can just sort of put that. I always have

0:59:53.880 --> 0:59:57.840
<v Speaker 2>a hard time wrapping my mind around big time, and

0:59:57.880 --> 0:59:59.920
<v Speaker 2>so I wonder if you can kind of contextualize that

1:00:00.080 --> 1:00:04.240
<v Speaker 2>at what we're talking about versus the broader story of

1:00:05.320 --> 1:00:07.760
<v Speaker 2>humans spreading around the world.

1:00:08.280 --> 1:00:11.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, when I mean, you guys all know this as

1:00:11.960 --> 1:00:15.960
<v Speaker 1>well as I do. But you know, when you're doing history,

1:00:16.520 --> 1:00:21.360
<v Speaker 1>history we always think of history, especially professionally and in

1:00:21.400 --> 1:00:24.600
<v Speaker 1>the academy, we think of that as being something you

1:00:24.680 --> 1:00:29.000
<v Speaker 1>do from written sources. And of course written sources only

1:00:29.040 --> 1:00:31.880
<v Speaker 1>exist for the human story back to about thirty five

1:00:31.960 --> 1:00:34.520
<v Speaker 1>hundred and four thousand years ago, and beyond that we

1:00:34.640 --> 1:00:38.880
<v Speaker 1>have no written stories, and so that sort of implies that. Okay,

1:00:38.880 --> 1:00:41.800
<v Speaker 1>so if you're interested in history, that's the end of it.

1:00:42.280 --> 1:00:45.600
<v Speaker 1>Four thousand years back, you don't have any history anymore.

1:00:45.640 --> 1:00:49.880
<v Speaker 1>There's no way. I'm not satisfied with that, obviously, because

1:00:50.480 --> 1:00:53.760
<v Speaker 1>that's a very small slice of the human story, and

1:00:53.800 --> 1:00:58.040
<v Speaker 1>the human story goes way way farther back in time,

1:00:58.720 --> 1:01:04.960
<v Speaker 1>and so I mean my whole take on something like

1:01:05.920 --> 1:01:10.720
<v Speaker 1>writing that chapter about what I call Native America. After

1:01:11.240 --> 1:01:16.040
<v Speaker 1>the Pleistocene extinctions and the Holycene period began in North America,

1:01:16.080 --> 1:01:18.080
<v Speaker 1>I tried to write a chapter about the next ten

1:01:18.160 --> 1:01:21.400
<v Speaker 1>thousand years, which takes you down to five hundred years ago,

1:01:21.640 --> 1:01:25.880
<v Speaker 1>when Europeans and Old Worlders began arriving in North America.

1:01:26.880 --> 1:01:30.560
<v Speaker 1>I was trying to sort of satisfy my own curiosity

1:01:30.600 --> 1:01:33.720
<v Speaker 1>about that, because I couldn't really find very many people

1:01:33.800 --> 1:01:37.320
<v Speaker 1>who had ventured a guess as to how that story

1:01:37.400 --> 1:01:40.000
<v Speaker 1>had unfolded. And in a book like that, where I

1:01:40.080 --> 1:01:44.000
<v Speaker 1>was interested primarily in the relationship between animals and people,

1:01:44.520 --> 1:01:49.040
<v Speaker 1>I was trying to figure out how did it happen

1:01:49.560 --> 1:01:53.080
<v Speaker 1>that when Europeans get here five hundred years ago, they

1:01:53.240 --> 1:01:57.000
<v Speaker 1>land on a continent that they're so impressed with. Now,

1:01:57.040 --> 1:01:59.080
<v Speaker 1>maybe it's just in comparison to what they had done

1:01:59.080 --> 1:02:02.760
<v Speaker 1>to Europe, but they're really impressed with the biological diversity

1:02:02.760 --> 1:02:05.680
<v Speaker 1>of North America. It's kind of an Eden for the animals.

1:02:05.680 --> 1:02:08.600
<v Speaker 1>And so the question was, how did we get from

1:02:08.680 --> 1:02:11.120
<v Speaker 1>ten thousand years ago down to five hundred years ago?

1:02:11.480 --> 1:02:15.400
<v Speaker 1>Where Native people managed to preserve all that, and that

1:02:15.600 --> 1:02:18.880
<v Speaker 1>presented obviously a lot of a lot of questions to

1:02:19.000 --> 1:02:21.520
<v Speaker 1>try to answer. And I'm sure there'll be people who

1:02:21.600 --> 1:02:25.520
<v Speaker 1>improve on that story that I told, But that was

1:02:25.680 --> 1:02:29.920
<v Speaker 1>kind of my own attempt to do something about the

1:02:30.040 --> 1:02:33.080
<v Speaker 1>Native American story that I didn't see anybody else really

1:02:33.120 --> 1:02:36.640
<v Speaker 1>making a stab at trying to interpret, probably because it's

1:02:36.720 --> 1:02:37.400
<v Speaker 1>too dawning.

1:02:38.120 --> 1:02:39.880
<v Speaker 3>But I think you did a phenomenal job because you

1:02:39.960 --> 1:02:45.439
<v Speaker 3>distilled it down into an observation that here's nine five

1:02:45.520 --> 1:02:48.720
<v Speaker 3>hundred years of history and there's maybe like one.

1:02:48.800 --> 1:02:52.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, one extinction, one extinction in that time we've done.

1:02:52.800 --> 1:02:56.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the last five hundred years has been a real ripper.

1:02:56.440 --> 1:02:59.560
<v Speaker 1>Yes, and a real ripper, there's no question about it.

1:02:59.840 --> 1:03:05.000
<v Speaker 1>I mean, one piece I read in the National Academy

1:03:05.040 --> 1:03:09.600
<v Speaker 1>of Sciences from about twenty nineteen argued that we have

1:03:09.760 --> 1:03:13.920
<v Speaker 1>sacrificed in the last five hundred years about a half

1:03:13.960 --> 1:03:19.360
<v Speaker 1>a million years of evolved genetics on planet Earth as

1:03:19.360 --> 1:03:22.360
<v Speaker 1>a consequence of all the destruction that we've made to

1:03:23.000 --> 1:03:25.640
<v Speaker 1>creatures around the world. And most of the animals that

1:03:25.720 --> 1:03:30.720
<v Speaker 1>have disappeared have been really charismatic and very common, like

1:03:30.800 --> 1:03:35.520
<v Speaker 1>passenger pigeons. Passenger pigeons survived in North America for fifteen

1:03:35.600 --> 1:03:39.640
<v Speaker 1>million years, and they couldn't last three hundred years after

1:03:39.680 --> 1:03:43.720
<v Speaker 1>we got here. So there's certainly been that. And then

1:03:43.800 --> 1:03:46.080
<v Speaker 1>there's that ten thousand year period we were just talking

1:03:46.080 --> 1:03:49.200
<v Speaker 1>about where I could find evidence for only one extinction,

1:03:49.320 --> 1:03:52.880
<v Speaker 1>and that was a flightless sea duck on the Pacific coast.

1:03:53.240 --> 1:03:57.080
<v Speaker 1>But then of course there's the period before that, the Pleistocene,

1:03:57.640 --> 1:04:02.640
<v Speaker 1>where if anything, truction was even on more massive a scale.

1:04:02.960 --> 1:04:05.960
<v Speaker 1>And in that instance, not only do we sacrifice an

1:04:06.120 --> 1:04:11.960
<v Speaker 1>enormous amount of biological diversity and genetics evolved genetics, but

1:04:12.040 --> 1:04:15.520
<v Speaker 1>it was the genetics of most of the really large

1:04:15.640 --> 1:04:22.160
<v Speaker 1>and impressive animals of the globe. And so that's a

1:04:22.200 --> 1:04:26.240
<v Speaker 1>story in other words, that doesn't have it doesn't travel

1:04:26.320 --> 1:04:32.800
<v Speaker 1>just in one direction. It's as if humans realizing, wow,

1:04:32.920 --> 1:04:36.120
<v Speaker 1>we may have really screwed things up, or things got

1:04:36.120 --> 1:04:39.200
<v Speaker 1>screwed up for some reason, because I'm not sure they

1:04:39.520 --> 1:04:43.200
<v Speaker 1>quite understood what had happened, but it seems to have

1:04:43.280 --> 1:04:47.680
<v Speaker 1>produced a kind of a reaction where for nearly ten

1:04:47.720 --> 1:04:53.040
<v Speaker 1>thousand years they are very careful about things. And you know,

1:04:53.080 --> 1:04:55.920
<v Speaker 1>as I said, that's a story that I really had

1:04:55.960 --> 1:05:01.640
<v Speaker 1>to put together because I couldn't find anyone that was

1:05:01.760 --> 1:05:05.520
<v Speaker 1>willing to make to venture a guess about how that

1:05:05.560 --> 1:05:07.840
<v Speaker 1>it all played out, and yet it's obviously a really

1:05:07.840 --> 1:05:09.080
<v Speaker 1>big part of American history.

1:05:09.920 --> 1:05:11.320
<v Speaker 3>Well, Dan, I want to thank you for sitting and

1:05:11.360 --> 1:05:13.080
<v Speaker 3>having this post chat with us.

1:05:13.720 --> 1:05:16.440
<v Speaker 1>You best see. Thanks thanks to both of you guys. Randall,

1:05:17.200 --> 1:05:22.360
<v Speaker 1>you guys were you know, many years ago, uh, terrific

1:05:22.560 --> 1:05:25.680
<v Speaker 1>students in the classes that I taught at the University

1:05:25.720 --> 1:05:27.840
<v Speaker 1>of Montown. It's fun to sit down and do this again.

1:05:28.760 --> 1:05:28.880
<v Speaker 1>What