1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class from stock 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Wilson, and uh, this is actually a topic 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: that I've had on my which lift almost at the 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: beginning of when we came on. I know I've said, 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: I said, I'd think in the last couple of weeks 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 1: that I have been trying to go back to some 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: of those original ones I was really excited about and 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: work um in. But this is one that I really 10 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: wrestled with because the material is a little bit emotionally 11 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: difficult for me for like sort of silly, crazy animal 12 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: lady reasons. It's the story of one of those odd 13 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: ambitions that only uh, the privileged are really afforded. But 14 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties and New York socialite had this dream, uh, 15 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: and that dream was to be the first person to 16 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: capture a panda from Asia and returned to the Western 17 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: world with it. And it's a as I said, it's 18 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: something I wrestle with a little bit. Um. I've been 19 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: very open that I am an animal person and I 20 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: struggle with the concept of animals and captivity. And I'm 21 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: sure many of our listeners have similar feelings. I see 22 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: both sides of the issue. I volunteered with zoos and 23 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: aquariums before, and I really love it. Um. You know, 24 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,759 Speaker 1: captive animals in accredited facilities increased public awareness and they 25 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: provide a situation where the animals can be studied, they 26 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: can bolster conservation efforts. But you know, there's part of 27 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: me that has to acknowledge that that is not the 28 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: natural state for those animals. So, as I said, I 29 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: struggle with it. Probably other people do too. And this 30 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: is an important kind of uh touchstone in the development 31 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: of animals and captivity in the United States. UH. And so, 32 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: for example, the first time a Westerner even saw a panda, 33 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: it was not alive. It was a pelpone display in 34 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: a private home. And that was back in eighteen sixty nine. 35 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: And once UH, Europe and the US kind of got 36 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: ahold of this knowledge, it sort of fed into a 37 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: time when exploring other lands and kind of a little 38 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: bit of a conquering mentality was going on, and particularly 39 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: in the realm of animals, there was a lot of 40 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: We're discovering new animals all the time. Well, there was 41 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: also a strain of orientalism at the time, and because 42 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: panda's are native to China, that definitely fed the fire 43 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: of it. Uh, and it really ended up kicking off 44 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: an obsession in the Western world with finding these black 45 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: and white bears that seemed so exotic. And in the 46 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: early half of the twentieth century, one woman who we 47 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: will talk about today, this person I spoke of at 48 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: the very beginning, really catapulted the giant panda onto the 49 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: world stage and she made the species of media darling 50 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: to some degree. So we're going to talk about Ruth Harkness. 51 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: So Ruth Macombs Harkness was not born into money, she 52 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: married into it. She actually came from pretty humble origins. 53 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: Her father was a carpenter and her mother was a seamstress, 54 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: and they made their home in Titusville, Pennsylvania. She was 55 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: born on September twenty one and she had three siblings. 56 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: The conservative atmosphere of the home life of the Macombs 57 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: was not really something that Ruth was comfortable with. She 58 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: had a little bit of edge to her. She knew 59 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: there was more in the world that she wanted to discover. Uh. 60 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: She became an avid reader as a consequence, and UH, 61 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: the entry in her senior yearbook under her mature kind 62 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: of is a great encapsulation of what she was like 63 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 1: at this time, and it says, quote, Ruth is rather 64 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 1: hard to get acquainted with, but after you know her, 65 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: you find that she has many good qualities and is 66 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: a friend worth having. I started the look it sounds 67 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: like something Mary Poppins would say about someone who is difficult. 68 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: I just really really loved that. Ruth tried out college 69 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: at the University of Colorado, but she only lasted a 70 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: semester before heading to Cuba briefly to work as an 71 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: English teacher, but that really did not suit her either. 72 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: She had a little bit of wanderlust, uh, and she 73 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: was hitting her twenties, of course, just as the jazz 74 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: age was kicking off, and so Ruth moved to New York, 75 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: allegedly I think, with like twenty five bucks to her name, 76 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: and she got a job there as a dress designer, 77 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: and she was basically kind of designing uh outfits that 78 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: kind of were knockoffs of what was going on in 79 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: Paris at the time, and she very quickly and very 80 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: fully embraced the decadent aspects of flapper lifestyle. She really 81 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: became a quintessential party girl. She was a heavy drinker. 82 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: She was a heavy smoker, and she had this personality 83 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: though that was really perfectly suited to social life and 84 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: kind of becoming a social darling. Her friends described her 85 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: as very smart and very witty, and she had a 86 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: very commanding presence. She was just sort of bubbly and 87 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: outspoken and kind of the perfect It was a perfect 88 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: time for a girl like her to really make her 89 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: way in the city. During this time, Ruth met William 90 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: Harvest Harkness, Jr. And he was wealthy and had a 91 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: Harvard education. Bill's father was a high powered attorney, and 92 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,239 Speaker 1: the young man was a regular in the society pages. 93 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: The two of them were really drawn together and kind 94 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: of an opposite attract scenario. Yeah, Bill was much quieter 95 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: and more reserve, uh, But he was also really well 96 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: traveled and he spoke many languages, which really appealed to Ruth. 97 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: And what really bonded them as a couple is that 98 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: they both loved reading, and they would read together in 99 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: trade books and discuss the things that they had read 100 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: in the books. And they also spent a great deal 101 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: of time just pouring over maps and travel journals and 102 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: kind of plotting these grand adventures that they really hoped 103 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: to take together one day. And this was not like 104 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: the fantasy kind of planning of like one day we'll 105 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: run away and spend three months in Paris. Like they 106 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: were really planning some trips. Uh. And they ended up 107 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: dating for quite some time before they finally married, although 108 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,119 Speaker 1: uh some accounts say they basically were living as married people, 109 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: like they just didn't make it all official in paperworky 110 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: for a while. So, with the financial backing of his 111 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 1: family money, Bill Harkness made an adventurer slash explorer his occupation, 112 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: which is awesome work if you can get it, if 113 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: you could make it for yourself. Right. So this was 114 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,679 Speaker 1: a time when new animals are being discovered all the time, 115 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: and men like Bill would race to be the first 116 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 1: to capture and sometimes kill one of them. Yeah, it 117 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: was a you know kind of that that sense of 118 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: adventure we've talked about before. It was what fed a 119 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: lot of like the Everest expeditions, but like being the 120 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: first to do the thing, to see this animal, to 121 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: capture this animal. There was a lot of like a 122 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: claim that went with that. And Bill had just had 123 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: a successful expedition to capture a Komodo dragon, which I 124 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: would love to do more research on that trip specifically, 125 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: because those things are poisonous and me and not delightful. 126 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: They do not want hugs. But he, you know, it 127 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: was sort of chuffed with his success from me, and 128 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: he decided that he was going to be the first 129 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 1: man to capture a giant panda. And this was in 130 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: four when he kind of mounted this plan, and so 131 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 1: he made a trip to China, but he got a 132 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: little blockaded. He ended up spending the next year or 133 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: there in China just waiting for the proper permit paperwork 134 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 1: to all be approved, because it was not an easy 135 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: thing to just stroll in and put your team together 136 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: and go. But unfortunately, before his expedition could actually get 137 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: underway and all of that paper work could happen, Bill 138 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: became very ill, uh and he was treated for a while, 139 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: but he ended up dying on February eighteenth of nineteen 140 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: thirty six in Shanghai, and his illness, which was not 141 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: initially accurately diagnosed, turned out to be throat cancer. So 142 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: he had basically been withering away while he waited for 143 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: these documents. Although his missives back to Ruth were all 144 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: very peppy and upbeat. So when Bill died, Ruth inherited 145 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: his money, and she also inherited the expedition equipment that 146 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: he had already assembled in China. So, in a move 147 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: that completely shocked all of her socialite friends, Ruth, Ruth 148 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: decided that instead of settling into life as a wealthy widow, 149 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: she would travel to China and pick up where Bill 150 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: left off. Yeah, this was really, uh a wild move. 151 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: I mean she was basically saying, all that money and 152 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: I inherit it, I'm not going to live off of it. 153 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to spend it all to go to China 154 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,559 Speaker 1: and do what my husband was trying to do. Uh. 155 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: And you know, this certainly seems like a crazy move 156 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: for a woman who fully embraced creature comforts. I mean, 157 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: she was very open that she like sort of living 158 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: her spoiled life in New York and like she wouldn't 159 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: walk a block if she could take a cab and uh, 160 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: so it seemed very surprising too many people for her 161 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 1: to just go, no, I'm gonna go do that trip 162 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: my husband was on. But really what motivated her was 163 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: likely just a very deep grief because as we said 164 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't opposite attract scenario. And Ruth and Bill at 165 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: this point had been together for a decade and they 166 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: were very happily married and very close partners. 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So back to Ruth's adventures. 202 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: Most of what we knew about Ruth's first journey is 203 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: through her letters to her best friend, Hazel Perkins, who 204 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: was nicknamed Perky, and so once Ruth arrived in Shanghai, 205 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: she really took a different approach to the mission than 206 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: was customary and certainly different than the way Bill had 207 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: handled things. Whereas normally Western explorers would go into a 208 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: new place like this on these adventure and discovery expeditions 209 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: with a team of fellow Westerners and they would lay 210 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: out their plan and follow it. Ruth got rid of 211 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: all of the men that he had already hired and 212 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: brought on, and she opted to seek out locals as 213 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: her guides and her employees, at least almost locals. She 214 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: ended up hiring Quentin Young, and he was a young 215 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: Chinese American college student as her god. She said of him, 216 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: when Quentin Young consented to take charge of my expedition, 217 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: the obstacles that he had surrounded me began to disappear. 218 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: In fact, the Chinese wall of it can't be done, 219 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: crumpled like the walls of Jericho. Yeah, this was not 220 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: the Young family's first time assisting Americans with panda expeditions. 221 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: Quentin's younger brother, Jack had actually led Teddy Roosevelt's sons 222 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: on a giant panda hunting expedition in nine and in 223 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: this case, the goal which was achieved was strictly to 224 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: hunt the animal. With Jack's assistance, the Roosevelt boys shot 225 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: and killed a giant panda and returned home with it 226 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: as a hunting trophy, giving them the dubious honor of 227 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: being the first Americans to kill a panda. Quinton knew 228 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: the areas of Tibet where their travels were going to 229 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: take them, and his guidance in this expedition really can't 230 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: be understated. He was fluent in Chinese as well as English, 231 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: and he was able to handle virtually every logistical need 232 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: of Mrs harkness ambitious plan. Yeah. I mean, this is 233 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: a woman who she uh you know, was used to 234 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: getting everything she wanted, and he kind of made that 235 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: happen for her again. In China, Uh and Harkness and 236 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: Young left Shanghai on September twenty six and nineteen thirty six, 237 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: and they traveled up the Yancey River for several weeks 238 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: before reaching cheng Do, which is the capital of Sichuan Province, 239 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: and there they hired a complement of servants to carry loads, 240 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: and they also hired a cook before they started their 241 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 1: journey into the Tibetan highlands. What they wanted to do 242 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: was to capture a baby panda. Harkness carried a supply 243 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: of items that she thought would help her care for 244 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: a baby panda, so she had nursing bottles and dry milk. 245 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 1: Through her letters to Perkey, she mentioned that no one 246 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: really knew how to care for a panda, but she 247 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: seemed enthusiastic and confident about her plan, and her idea 248 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: to acquire an infant was actually another departure for the 249 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: usual approach. Previous expeditions to capture a panda uh and 250 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: ones that were you know, being mounted around the same 251 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: time always intended to bring back an adult. But that 252 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: was really quite problematic for a number of reasons. Uh. First, 253 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: no matter how cute pandas are, uh, they are wild bears. 254 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: They do not want to be disturbed. They do not 255 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: want your hugs anymore than the komodo dragons do. Uh. 256 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: The equipment for the capture would also be extremely cumbersome, 257 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: so they would have to have porters to carry chains 258 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: like heavy chains and traps and cages for an adult animal. 259 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: And additionally, just transporting an adult would also mean that 260 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: you had to deal with an adult panda's appetite, which 261 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: would have included carrying a great deal of bamboo back 262 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: along with it. Just to sustain it through the journey. 263 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: Trying to get a cub instead solved most of these problems. Yeah, 264 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: smaller package, less fuss with not so much bamboot boardage. No, 265 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: not at all. Uh So the team traveled up to 266 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 1: thirty miles a day on foot, and sometimes the temperatures 267 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,479 Speaker 1: got incredibly high, uh, north of a hundred degrees fahrenheit. 268 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: And you would think that, uh, someone who had been 269 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: living in privilege for so long would really struggle with it, 270 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: but surprisingly Ruth apparently did extremely well on the journey. 271 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,599 Speaker 1: She was just driven and she you know, hoofed it 272 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: all those miles. And sometimes when she would get tired, 273 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: the porters would kind of make a hammock style chair 274 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: for her that she could rest in for a little 275 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: while and they would carry her for a bit. But 276 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: mostly she did it under her own steerage there um, 277 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: so she really you know, kind of stepped up to 278 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: the bar. And also during this journey, at some point 279 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: Harkness and her guide Quentin Young became romantically involved. This 280 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: group was eventually met by an elderly Tibetan man. He 281 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: was named Loud Saying, and he said that the word 282 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: had reached him that a Western woman was looking for 283 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: a panda. He said he knew where to find them, 284 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: and he offered his services, so he and his son 285 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: in law joined the group as they headed into the 286 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: bamboo forest. Yeah, when she I read an article on 287 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: a link in show notes, and it's kind of her 288 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: relaying her story. It's much briefer than any of the 289 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: other books to this journalist, and it really is very 290 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: sort of um like a Curasawa film, Like this elderly 291 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: Tibetan man just kind of wanders out of the fog 292 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: one day and it's like, I will help you find 293 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: the pandas. And they have a picture in that article 294 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: of an elderly Tibetan man. So I presume it is 295 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: in fact accurate and non embellishment, but it seems so surreal. 296 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: I thought I thought you were going to say there 297 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: were seven different versions of what happened. No, not quite. 298 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: In November, they set up four different camps, and they 299 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: were guided to do so by information that pandas don't 300 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: make nests and instead have this more nomadic lifestyle. It 301 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,479 Speaker 1: was only a few days before things started to get interesting. 302 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: They heard noises in the forest and then a gunshot 303 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: the air was full of a really heavy mist, so 304 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: the visibility was almost non existent. Ruth have been extremely 305 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: clear with her team that she did not want anyone 306 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: to shoot the pandas so in the heaviness, they really 307 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: were not sure what was going on. Yeah, she describes 308 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: being very terrified in that moment. She didn't know if 309 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: they were in danger because they did you know. This 310 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: was the time when China was going through some upheavals 311 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,239 Speaker 1: and they did, at one point, you know, encounter UM 312 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: soldiers on their journeys and other you know people, So 313 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: she didn't know if they were walking into something dangerous 314 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: or if someone had shot a panda from her group, 315 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: even though she had asked them not to. But Quentin 316 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: decided that he would explore the area and he uh 317 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: discovered in a hollowed out tree a tiny panda cub 318 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: and he thought that someone may have shot the mother 319 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: and that might have been the shot they heard, although 320 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: that was never established with certainty. Uh Still, he tucked 321 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: the cub into his shirt and he climbed back down 322 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: to the ground with it. The panda was later named 323 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: Sulin after one of Quentin's relatives, which was his sister 324 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: in law. Who was quite an explorer in her own right, 325 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: um and would make a great podcast subject in the future. 326 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: She's on my list. Mrs Harkners cared for the cub 327 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 1: as the team made its way back to chong Do 328 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: and then to Shanghai, and she had no experience in 329 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: caring for babies, so she pretty much went with her 330 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 1: intuition and did the best that she could. The porters 331 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: that she and Quinton Young had hired two turns carrying 332 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: the baby panda and baskets and between feedings. Um. And incidentally, 333 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: while the panda was given a woman's name, it turned 334 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: out to be a boy. Yeah. Yeah, poor Ruth. She 335 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: you know, had never been a mother. She had no 336 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: experience caring for human babies. So even though she was like, 337 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: I'll just you know, try to do my best with 338 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: the cub as though it's a baby, and she's like, wait, 339 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: I don't know what to do with babies either. Well, 340 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,959 Speaker 1: in panda cubs require some pretty specific care. Yeah, and 341 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: she was making it all up as she went along. Um. 342 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 1: When she arrived in Shanghai, she did take the cub 343 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: to a doctor to have it looked over and make 344 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: sure it was okay, and it apparently passed, so getting 345 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: Sulan out of China proved to be a kind of 346 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: a challenge. The panda cub was seized by customs officials 347 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: in Shanghai and the ship that she had booked passage 348 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: on left port, so Ruth wound up remaining in China, 349 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: choosing to stay in the custom shed with the panda overnight. Yeah, 350 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: she didn't want to leave sulim Uh. And the next 351 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: day Harkness and the panda were finally released and they 352 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: were allowed to, you know, book another passage and head 353 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,959 Speaker 1: to the US. But there was a little bit of 354 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: paperwork juggling because the cub actually ended up listing on 355 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: the customs document as a dog. So there are a 356 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: few theories about whether or not she used her wealth 357 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: to kind of finagle that, or if she just charmed someone, 358 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: or if there was some sort of a lucky accident 359 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: to the whole thing, but Sulian was listed as a dog. Uh. 360 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: They traveled back to the US on a luxury ship, 361 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: so Sulian definitely got a taste of a high life. 362 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: They first landed in San Francisco and then they went 363 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: on to Chicago from there, and then they finally went 364 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: back to Manhattan. And what's sort of interesting about this 365 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: is that throughout the journey, uh Ruth kept Sulin with her. 366 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: She basically carried this panda in her arms everywhere she went. 367 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: It rode in cabs with her, it went to restaurants 368 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 1: with her, and went to parties with her, and then 369 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: when she got to New York, it actually lived with 370 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: her in her New York apartment. So on the one hand, 371 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: this sounds like the case of a rich lady doing 372 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: something eccentric uh with having an animal as an accessory, 373 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: but really, her inclination to keep the baby panda close 374 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: to her was probably pretty beneficial to it. She wanted 375 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: to keep it safe. Although there was significant press and 376 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: exposure surrounding her being the panda, Lady Ruth and Sulin 377 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: were front page news for weeks and wound up on 378 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: numerous radio programs. Yeah, the there have been some that 379 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: have theorized that her keeping it with her all the 380 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 1: time up against her body kind of gave it the 381 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 1: necessary body heat, because you know, babies are very susceptible, 382 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: even for babies to losing their body heat very quickly 383 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: when they're young, so it probably did help it that 384 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: she was clinging with it well, and baby pandas also 385 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 1: their digestive systems are not actually built to digest anything, 386 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: and so the mother has to move the baby around 387 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: all the time. So if she was carrying the baby 388 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: panda around that badly did help. Yeah, she's sort of accidentally, 389 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: whether it was intuition or a lucky accident, she ended 390 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: up doing the right thing to some degree. Uh. However, 391 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: eventually Sulan was handed over to the Brookfield Zoo in Chicago. Uh. 392 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:21,959 Speaker 1: They bought it from Ruth for a little less than 393 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: nine thousand dollars, and while it was on exhibit at Brookfield, 394 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 1: the panda drew record breaking crowds. In a single day, 395 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 1: more than fifty three thousand people showed up to see 396 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: this panda cub because it was a completely exotic creature. 397 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: And before we go on uh to talk about Ruth 398 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: and Sulin and some additional adventures, let's have a quick 399 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: add from our sponsor. So back to the next phase 400 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: in Ruth Harkness her expeditions. In seven, Harkness returned to 401 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 1: China to collect another panda, and this time she was 402 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: not as well repaired. She seemed to be sort of 403 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 1: counting on a simple repeat of what had happened the 404 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: last time. But things did not work out that way. 405 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: You Uh. For one thing, the real sort of dramatic 406 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: problem was that she got back to China and discovered 407 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: that Quentin Young had gotten married in the time that 408 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: she was away, and he was not going to be 409 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: available to join her, and I presume certainly not to 410 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:25,360 Speaker 1: continue their romantic relationship. Uh, you never know, you never know. 411 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: I'm not judging, I'm just saying it didn't seem to 412 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: work out. Despite the fact that much of her success 413 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 1: on her first expedition really was due to the guidework 414 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: of Young, she you know, ever a bit obstinate. I mean, 415 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: this is the woman whose friends were telling her you're crazy, 416 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: You're crazy when she first decided on all of this, 417 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: and she kind of dug in her heels as a consequence, Like, 418 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: I think she's one of those people that really is 419 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: motivated to do things in spite of what other people 420 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: are telling her. So even though it seems like maybe 421 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: not the smartest thing to go without Quentin Young, she 422 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: was like, I'm going to do it anyway, and she did, 423 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: and she did manage to capture another panda cub on 424 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: her own. This one was named May May, and this 425 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: new cub joined Sulin on exhibit at the Brickfield Zoo, 426 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: but Suland developed pneumonia and died shortly after the arrival 427 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: of the second cub. Yeah, there are actually some interesting 428 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: differences of accounts of what happened to seulin um. I 429 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: read one, and I couldn't corroborate it anywhere, but I 430 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: just want to mention it off hand in case any 431 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: of our listeners go looking and find it and say, 432 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: this isn't what they said. One account said that he 433 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: had actually choked on a piece of food, like on 434 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: a piece of bamboo that had lodged in his throat, 435 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: and that he didn't die from the choking, but then 436 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: he ended up getting a secondary infection from where it 437 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 1: had either punctured something or um whatever. And one newspaper 438 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: wrote it up as him having died of curiosity, which 439 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: is sort of horrible and I don't know, it just 440 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: rubbed me the wrong way. Uh, But most accounts say 441 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 1: that he died of pneumonia. Uh. There was a third 442 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: trip that Harkness went on in and this really proved 443 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: to be a signific I can't shift in her life, 444 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: and a big turning point she was successful and once 445 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: again getting a cub, but before she could return to 446 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: the States with it, she really experienced a pretty significant 447 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: change of heart about the whole business. So in the 448 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: two years since she captured su Lan, all kinds of 449 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: hunters from all over the world had gone on pandiquests 450 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: of their own, and they weren't generally approaching them with 451 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: the same good intentions that had guided Harkness. So on 452 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 1: top of that, two cubs she had transported previously had 453 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: died in transit, and all this kind of weight on 454 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: her and she was contemplating the area where she had 455 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: captured this third cub, which is near where she had 456 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: had gotten both Sulan and Maymay, and Ruth was very 457 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: troubled when she realized that there was a significant visible 458 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: to her drop in the number of pandas in this 459 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: bamboo forest and her intent, she said when she relayed 460 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: sort of what was going through her mind at this 461 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: time was that she had, you know, envisioned bringing mating 462 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 1: pairs back to the Western world and kind of you know, 463 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: fostering a panda population in the US. But things were 464 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: not going as planned. Uh, So instead of bringing another 465 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: panda to the US and risking its life in the process, 466 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 1: she made a really unusual choice and she trekked back 467 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: up the mountain and returned the baby panda to the wild. 468 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: So this was a really detrimental move for Harkness. She 469 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: had been a moneyed party girl and at this point 470 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: she had really spent a lot of her fortune on 471 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: these expeditions, So returning the panda was a huge blow 472 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: to her finances. Yeah, she wasn't going to get the 473 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: publicity and the the you know, cost of the panda back. Uh, 474 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: people were probably not going to want to interview her 475 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: a whole bunch about. Oh, I felt bad and put 476 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: it back. Um May May was in captivity for about 477 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: five years, but she died very young. In then Ruth, 478 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: leaving behind her trips to China, developed a drink problem. Yeah. 479 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: While she had been traveling initially in China, Harkness had 480 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: really come to embrace some of the people of the 481 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: area and the concepts of Eastern spirituality. And when she 482 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: would write letters to Perky and other friends, she really 483 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: talked about how she was, you know, kind of getting 484 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,959 Speaker 1: into um this Eastern spirituality and learning to let go 485 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: of attachments to possessions and people and how it, you know, 486 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: had given her this sense of peace and really, you know, 487 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: brought a change in her and an ability to sort 488 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: of just be in the world. But the sentiment seems 489 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: like it may have been kind of one of those 490 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: early exposure enthusiasm situations because it did not stay with her. Um. 491 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: You know, when she was back in the States, she 492 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: never seemed to find, you know, that piece that she 493 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 1: had felt in China, and once she was permanently back 494 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: in New York, she just kind of spiraled downward. On 495 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: July tw n she was found dead in a hotel bathtub, 496 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 1: and her death was ruled the result of acute alcoholic 497 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 1: gastro enteritis. Yeah, it's a very sad end for her. Uh. However, 498 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: she has an interesting legacy. Um. There is a book, 499 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: like it's the book that most people kind of point at, uh, 500 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 1: written about Harkness, which is called The Lady in the Panda, 501 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: and it's very very fascinating, But in reading it, I 502 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: kind of feel like the author Vicky Croak, and she 503 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: does a really good job with the book, but it 504 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: feels a little bit romanticized to me. She kind of 505 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,719 Speaker 1: paints Harknesses as a hero character and describes her as 506 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: a combination of Myrna Loy and Jane Goodall, which sounds 507 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: really good, but it also sounds pretty idealized. But at 508 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: the same time, she really was an extraordinary woman. So 509 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: I want to be clear that I don't know how 510 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: much of my own sort of perception and filters or 511 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: affecting my read of it. Uh. Well, and she did 512 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: alter the way the public perceived animals. She brought Sulian 513 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: home to New York in her arms instead of at 514 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: least or cage. You know, she was tweating like a 515 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: baby instead of like a thing that should be put 516 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: a box. She asserted that animals had individuality and personality 517 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: just like humans do, but because she was not a 518 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: trained biologist, her message kind of anthropomorphized pandas, which is 519 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: a little problematic. Yeah, this is an issue which you know, 520 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: continues to be discussed and debated. But once people perceive 521 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 1: an animal is human, like you know, the study of 522 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 1: them becomes subjective. In the case of such a high 523 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: profile animal, it can be a little bit detrimental in 524 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: terms of the public perception and the consequential misconceptions that 525 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: grow out of it. So pandas are I mean, I 526 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: think you would be hard pressed to find someone who 527 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: does not acknowledge that pandas are super cute. So it's 528 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: easy for people to start thinking them as cute pets 529 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: and like these sweet things rather than wild animals. But 530 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: as you said earlier, they are wild bears. They do 531 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: not want to be your friend, even though they look 532 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: really chill and adorable when they're rolling around in their 533 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: habitats and zeus, they're not. They're not humans and they're 534 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 1: not pets. They're they're their own thing. Well, and there's 535 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: a lot of ongoing debate about anthropomorphism, so these are 536 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: kind of the broad strokes. Anthropomorphism can be detrimental to 537 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 1: the study of animal cognition, and it can negatively impact 538 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: our body of knowledge about animals when it comes to 539 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: an endangered animal, and you know, giant handles are the 540 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 1: poster animals for endangement, it has the potential to get 541 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: in the way of conservation efforts. Yeah, I mean, most biologists, 542 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: certainly that I have known, they try to stay really 543 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: objective about it, but it's a fight. I mean, I've 544 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: certainly talked to people that have said, like, no, I 545 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 1: have to constantly remind myself like I'm working with an animal. 546 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: This is not a human. I can't assume it's intent 547 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: in its behaviors. And so, you know, if you're always 548 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: struggling with something like that, it's not like you know, 549 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: being able to put a piece of a drop of 550 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: blood on a slide and look at it. You're interpreting 551 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: things that animals are doing, and so it's really hard 552 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: to stay on guard. So that's why anthropomorphism can be 553 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: really tricky. Well, and it's like nature centers that are 554 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: really focused on conservation and preservation, a lot of times 555 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: the animals that are there don't have names. Um, and 556 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: you know, somebody say, what is this fox's name? And 557 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: it's well, it doesn't have a name. It's a wild animal. 558 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: It's not someone's pet. So in a two thousand four census, 559 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: it was estimated that there were only around sixteen hundred 560 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: giant pandas in the wild and about three hundred zoos. 561 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: A lot of biologists actually think these numbers are a 562 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: lot lower, especially in captivity. Female pandas really can have 563 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: trouble conceiving and their fertility windows are really narrow, sometimes 564 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: as low as twelve to twenty four hours in a year. Yeah, 565 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: they once each spring they become fertile. Um Tricie actually 566 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,479 Speaker 1: wrote an article for the site about it that I'm 567 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: in a reference in just a minute. Uh. And because 568 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: of their reclusive natures, though, almost everything we know about 569 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: these endangered bears is from the study of captive animals. 570 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: So again it's one of those things where they're pros 571 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: and cons to the situation. Uh. You know, sometimes it's 572 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: hard to see an animal in a captive situation, even 573 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: if it's in the best possible, you know, very perfectly 574 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: designed environment. But at the same time, if we didn't 575 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: have them in captivity, we would not know anything about 576 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: them and would not be as informed to you know, 577 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: kind of pursue conservation efforts. So there are two sides 578 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: to that coin. And today, giant pandas living in US 579 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: facilities actually still belong to China. It's not a situation 580 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: like Ruth Hardness where she could go get one and 581 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 1: then sell it here. They are all owned by China. Uh. 582 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: If you see a panda in the US zoo, it 583 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: is leased by the Chinese government, and those leasing fees 584 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: actually go back into a fund that is used to 585 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: further the study and conservation of giant pandas in their 586 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: native home. Uh The Giant Panda Reserve at Woolong has 587 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: been pretty successful at kind of figuring out how to 588 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: breed pandas. It's still tricky. There's still a lot of 589 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: work to be done, but they are getting to a 590 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: point where they feel like they will soon be able 591 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: to reintroduce panda's born in captivity into the wild and 592 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: start bolstering their wild numbers. Yeah, having a having a 593 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: panda in a zoo as an enormous financial commitment. It's 594 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: really huge any animal in a zoo. I think that's 595 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: some of those things people don't realize when they say, 596 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: why are tickets to this place? It's so expensive and 597 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: it's like, okay, keeping a whale alive for a year 598 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: across like a million dollars. Well, and on top of all, 599 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: you know, the food in the habitat and all that stuff. 600 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: Like the amount of money that the zoo gives to 601 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: China for panda conservation research is enormous um. Sue Lynn 602 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: is still viewable in taxid army form along with the 603 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: Tzavo lions. He's on display in the Field Museum's taxidermy exhibit. Yeah, 604 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: I feel like we should get a kickback from the Field. 605 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: We send people there all the time. So that he 606 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: tweeted at us that they had gone to the American 607 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: Museum of Natural History and to see the lines, and 608 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, no, that's wrong. Museum there in 609 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: the Field. Oh man, I love the Field. I gotta 610 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: get back here soon. Uh. And while the Ruth the 611 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: work of Ruth Harkness draws varying opinions, as we've said, 612 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: there are two sides to the whole kind of capturing 613 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: of an animal. Coin in this situation, at a time 614 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: when shooting exotic beasts for sport was happen things, she 615 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: really did shift the public thinking on pandas into one 616 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: of adoration. She's sometimes credited, you'll see like in quick 617 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: bios of hers, she's the woman that started the panda craze, 618 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: which is kind of an interesting phrase anyway, But you 619 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: know this this shift in mindset where people suddenly saw 620 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: it as a sweet thing, Let's find the interesting animal 621 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: and protect it instead of let's find the interesting animal 622 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: and shooting until it is dead. Yeah, So she's she's 623 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: had a significant impact on how we view not just pandas, 624 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: but many other animals. I think it it kind of 625 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: shifted the way biologists and zoologists were thinking about them 626 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: at the time. At some point those people recognize that, like, 627 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: you can know everything about zoology that you know, but 628 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: you're gonna need to get people that are not educated 629 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,959 Speaker 1: in biology and science on board with you if you're 630 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: gonna get the funding to keep these efforts going, right, 631 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: That's part of it. Do you also have listener mail? 632 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: I do several pieces of listener mail. Don't mean to 633 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: keep talking about animals, but I do. We got a 634 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: bunch of male about the Red Ghost of Arizona and 635 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: the camel Core and I picked a couple because, as 636 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: we've said before, we can't always answer everybody and we 637 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: can't always read everybody's but I try to do a few, 638 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: and so that's why our first one is from our listener, right, Anne, 639 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. This is I made 640 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: flappy hands of delight when I realized what this episode 641 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: is about. When I was in elementary school, I had 642 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: this book and I may still have it somewhere called 643 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: Ghostly Animals of America. And the Phantasmic Colorado was one 644 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: of the stories in it. The book had nineteen different 645 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: stories of ghost horses and dogs are mostly horses and dogs, 646 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: and Virginia Dare is a ghost dear on Roanoke Island 647 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: because of course, and a bit of the history surrounding 648 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:48,719 Speaker 1: the tail, and then instructions on how to find the 649 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: locations that the story was about. The Phantasmic Colorado was 650 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: the story that scared me the most because the picture 651 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 1: was scary. I hear you, some of the drawings are 652 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: scary and all caps. There was a dead guy strapped 653 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: to the poor camel's back. I agree. It's very sort 654 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: of gruesive and grim. Uh this is ironic as even 655 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: the book is like, hey, not actually a ghost camel, 656 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 1: probably just a real camel. But the book also started 657 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: my collection of locally published ghost stories. Whenever I travel 658 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: someplace new, I get a book on that area's ghost stories. 659 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: It's a great and unique way to revisit the places 660 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: I've been. I love that story, I love that that 661 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 1: that approach. It's a good that's a girl, that's good souvenirs. 662 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: Our next email is from our listener, Danielle. She says 663 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: I've just listened to your podcast about the Red Ghost 664 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 1: of Arizona and found it interesting when you were speculating 665 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: what would happen if camels became a pest on the 666 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: same scale of rabbits in Australia. In fact, camels are 667 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: also a pest here in Australia, having been introduced originally 668 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: for exploration missions into the central deserts by explorers like 669 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: Burke and Wills. Thousands of camels were introduced, but once 670 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: automobiles became more common, the camels were just loosed into 671 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: the outback. They thrived far better here than in the States, 672 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: and a survey in two thousand eight showed we had 673 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: about one million feral camels roaming central and Western Australia. 674 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,359 Speaker 1: I had no idea that's so cool. I mean, it's 675 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 1: not necessarily cool, but it's a cool fact. I don't 676 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: think that's actually cool. It's a cool fact to know, 677 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: she says. In fact, there were more wild camels in 678 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: Australia than in the regions from whence they originally came, 679 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,399 Speaker 1: as they are predominantly domesticated in the Africa, Africa, Indo 680 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: China regions. As part of a plan to control the 681 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 1: population of feral camels. There's now an industry of trading 682 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: camels and camel products, including meat, which I have to 683 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: imagine has a very strong flavor. Two places such as 684 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia, where camels are part of the culture, camel 685 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: racing is a thing I would be really interested to 686 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: see one day. That is also very cool. We had 687 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: a listener, and I'm sorry that I didn't make a 688 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: note of it because I'm just remembering it now on 689 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: Facebook mentioned that I think it was that she thought 690 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: that she had read somewhere that they had um gelded 691 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: the camels that had come over, and I could never 692 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: find anything to corroborate that in my research, but I 693 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: suspected something like that might have also been the case, 694 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: since they did not thrive, even though the vironment seems 695 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: pretty ideal for them. So uh, it would certainly make 696 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: sense for a number of reasons. I mean, I just 697 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: think about the smell, but to be sort of biologically 698 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,919 Speaker 1: gross about it. If you would like to write to us, 699 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: you can do so at our new ISSH email address. 700 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: We're still here. Everything is staying more or less the same, 701 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 1: emails changing. It's gonna be history. Podcasts and at how 702 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. You can also still connect with 703 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: us at Facebook dot com slash history class stuff, on Twitter, 704 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,919 Speaker 1: at misston history, at missed in History dot tumbler dot com, 705 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: and at pinterest dot com slash missed in history. If 706 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: you would like to learn more about pandas who doesn't, 707 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: you can go to housto works dot com and type 708 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:42,879 Speaker 1: in the word pandas in the search bar and you'll 709 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 1: get a few different articles, including why don't pandas hibernate? 710 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: And why is the birthrate solo for giant Panda's which 711 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: Tracy wrote it is a very long time ago, and 712 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: it kind of talks about how in captivity it's been 713 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: very tricky. They're more successful on their own out in 714 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,879 Speaker 1: the wild, and why those things are the case, uh, 715 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: and why it's a little bit difficult to uh, to 716 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: keep panda going in in captive situations. You can also 717 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 1: visit us on our own website, which is missed in 718 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 1: history dot com, and you can study almost anything you 719 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 1: like on our parent website, which is how staff works 720 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: dot com and how could you do? For more on 721 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how staff 722 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 1: works dot com