WEBVTT - Digital Theft 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.840 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.880 It's ready. Are you hey there, Text Stuff listeners, This 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:09.200 is Jonathan Strickland and I have got a request for 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:11.440 all of you. Now, Chris and I have decided that 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:13.720 we're going to try and experiment. We're doing our first 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:17.400 crowd sourced episode of tech Stuff and we want to 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:21.480 know what your pick is for the worst video game 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:25.600 of all time. Now, nominations you can. You can make 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:28.479 one nomination. You nominate one game, and you need to 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:30.639 tell us the name of the game and the platform 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:32.839 it was on. And it could be any platform. It 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:37.000 could be an arcade game, it could be a PC, Mac, Xbox, 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:41.360 PS three, Nintendo handheld console. It can be web based 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:43.839 if you like. But just you let us know what 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:45.560 the platform is so we can make sure we count 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:49.440 that as the votes. So you can nominate your game 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:53.920 either through email, which is tech Stuff at how stuff 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:58.320 works dot com, or you can nominate through Twitter or Facebook. 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:01.560 And we're gonna put a cut off date on this. 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:03.680 I want to have the episode go up by the 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:07.720 end of September of eleven. So let's say you need 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:12.960 to get your nominations in by September eleven, So if 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:15.880 you get those nominations into us, we will make sure 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.240 we include those in the process and we will have 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:22.640 an episode where we give you the worst video games 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:25.800 of all time based upon the votes of our listeners. 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:30.840 Thanks a lot. Can't wait to hear from you. Get 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.039 in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how stuff 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:42.760 works dot com. Hello, everyone, Welcome to tech Stuff. My 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:44.600 name is Chris Poulette, and I am an editor at 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:47.360 how stuff works dot com. Sitting across from me, as 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.960 he frequently does, is senior writer Jonathan Strickland. I'm the 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:54.480 dandy highwayman who you're too scared to mention. I spend 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:59.480 my cash on looking flash and grabbing your attention. Okay, 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.400 I told giggled when I when I thought of that too. Yeah. 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:05.600 Sometimes when I come up with the quotes, uh that 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:08.600 I use at the beginning of podcasts, it's immediately before 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.840 we start recording, like today, and I started cackling as 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:15.040 soon as I thought of which one I wanted to do. Anyway, 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.600 today we're gonna talk about digital theft, but we're really 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:22.440 going to focus on a specific case here, and it's 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:27.000 an interesting one. Christie. Want to set this up. Yeah, well, 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:29.240 where where does start? I guess we should just start 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:33.960 specifically with the details. Um. There is a I guess 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:36.840 it's probably best to call him an activist named Aaron 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.640 Schwartz Um who was arrested in Boston a few days 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:45.240 before we were recording this UM in early August of 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:50.560 two thousand eleven, and he's been accused of taking four 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:56.399 million UH digital documents essentially from UH from the Massachusetts 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:59.080 Instituted Technology m i T and J Store, which is 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:03.640 an online digital repository of scholarly journal art. Yes, journal 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:08.239 storage is essentially what JAY Store stands for. Yeah. Um, yeah. 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:11.840 Anybody who's listening, who is UH, who is either in 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:14.880 college now or you know, recently, probably in the last 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:17.720 ten or seven years, probably is familiar with jay Store, 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:23.960 especially in the humanities and UM related related things. But um, yeah. 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:28.600 So he's been basically charged with essentially sneaking into a 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:31.080 closet on the m i T campus, hooking up a 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:36.680 computer with removable drive uh to the network equipment, and 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:42.480 downloading millions of documents, and the the federal government has 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:46.040 charges out against him. The federal government, the United States 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:50.800 federal government alleges that Swortz's intent was to distribute these 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:57.560 files in a manner filed distribution distribution matterer usually peer 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.280 to peer network like like the Pirate Bay something like that. Right, 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:05.200 that that's the allegation, although um, everything I read up 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.640 till the recording of this podcast suggests that there's not 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:15.160 really any actual, uh publicly known evidence to support this. 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.960 That it's really just an allegation that's based upon Sports's 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:23.120 history and the fact that he actually got these four 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:25.960 million documents. Here. Here's some interesting things about this case 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:28.200 that are a little odd to me, just on the 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:33.200 surface level. So you've got Sports who has uh apparently 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:37.000 broken into M I T in order to download these documents, 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:39.520 leaving the computer there. Because of course we're talking about 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.159 millions of files, so this is taking a while to 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:48.320 to happen. Uh. He was working over at Harvard. Harvard 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:52.479 also has access to j store documents. J Store documents 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:55.400 if you don't know, uh, you know, colleges will pay 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:59.799 some sort of subscription fee in order to access different 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.080 parts of j stores database. Yeah, I can. I can 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:05.480 get into that and lots more detail if you want, sure, 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:08.240 because that's an important part of this discussion. Actually I 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.840 mean to really understand this case, and I don't even 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:14.039 say that I fully understand it, but you need to 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:16.520 get all the details to to really kind of get 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:19.400 a grip on on what this means. Yeah. That that's 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:23.080 the funny thing to me about this particular case, because 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:27.320 a lot of times people who are are breaking into 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:31.839 and stealing electronic files from people, I think of them 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.360 is going after the big targets, people who basically are 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:41.000 UM specifically involved in copyright fights, people like the movie 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:43.680 industry or the recording industry, where they're saying, I'm doing 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:48.640 this because the industry is repressing, you know, as as 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:52.159 making this this information unavailable to the public. J Store, 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.120 on the other hand, is a nonprofit J store, as 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:57.359 you mentioned, is it's short for a journal storage and 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.440 it's um. It was actually founded as a way to 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:05.760 uh to make journal articles available online, digitized and then 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.160 uh and then made available to institutions. At one point 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:13.680 there were only a handful of journals available and handful 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:17.680 of colleges and universities that subscribe to them. But over 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:22.160 time it's it's grown uh amazingly to be honest, Um, 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:25.240 the thing is with j store, they do collect fees 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:29.760 from all these institutions, partially for equipment, partially to help 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:34.520 fund institutions that have a tougher time with the fees um, 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.280 and they have to negotiate. A big part of that too, 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:40.640 is the the licenses that they have to negotiate with 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:45.719 publishers because um, you know these uh J store is 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:48.520 not um you know, the publisher of a lot of 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:51.560 these documents UM. And not everything of course is is 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:56.440 UM is owned by someone. The copyright is is uh 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:58.760 only valid for some of the stuff. Some of the 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:01.640 other stuff is older and and not in the not 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:05.480 under copyright anymore. So UM. The thing is, though, that 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:09.920 the publishers may have different requirements for for being published 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.400 in J Store, like some some publishers have absolutely no 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:16.880 qualms about making a journal article or an issue of 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:19.960 a journal available on J Store immediately after it's been published, 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:22.120 so it goes to press and then it ends up 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:24.679 on the shelf at the library and at the same 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:29.080 time you can access it digitally. But others might require 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:32.560 an embargo of six months to a year. UH, so 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:35.120 you may you know, they may expect you to go 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:39.000 to the uh the library and actually pick it up now. UM. 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.840 Part of the benefit to UH these databases is that 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:47.800 it makes it available more widely, especially for distance learning students. UM. 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:51.840 But it also helps mitigate the cost somewhat of subscribing 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:53.480 to some of these journals, which can be very very 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:58.080 expensive and sometimes in the case of thousands of dollars. 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:02.240 Because you know, these magazine are UH are not like 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.560 you know, Time or UM, you know, Rolling Stone or 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:09.200 something like that, where they're subsidized by advertising. It's that 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:13.600 you know, these these are scholarly journals and they have 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:17.400 a much smaller UM readership, so they have to charge 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:19.920 a lot more to keep them in print. UM, and 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:23.040 this using these databases can make it a little easier. 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.320 It also frees up space on the library shelves, so 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:28.400 that's UM, you know, another benefit to doing that. But 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:30.760 UM but yeah, j store Is is essentially though a 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:34.000 nonprofit but and makes it available through grant funding from 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:38.679 the Melon Foundation and UH and other sources. So I 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:43.160 still find it odd that that he would target a UM, 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:47.000 that he would target a nonprofit organization that's that's dedicated 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:49.679 to this specific purpose rather than somebody else. That seems 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:51.679 like it would be more a more obvious target if 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:55.360 you were going after people who were h enforcing copyright 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:59.120 right and to to make this even more complicated, J Store. 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:01.960 You know, when we're talking about these these fees that 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:06.440 that mostly libraries and UH and and universities pay in 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:10.520 order to get access to some of these libraries that 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:14.880 J store has available, UH, that money is not really 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:18.080 going toward J Store. That money is going to pay 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:21.160 off the uh the licensing fees J store has to 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.880 pay to these publishers in order to get access to 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:27.000 these documents in the first place. UH. So you know, 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:29.839 you can't really vilify J store too much. They're not 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:34.319 it's not like it's a for profit uh corporation. It's 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:36.560 it's a non for profit, So it's not you know, 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:39.520 they're they're trying to provide a service. So in a 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:42.240 way they're caught in the middle in this. But another 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:47.040 complicated issue is that more than half of the documents 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:51.280 that that sports was grabbing were in the public domain 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.640 in the sense that copyright had expired on these these 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.880 are they were either old enough so that they were 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:01.559 no longer under copyright or otherwise they were no longer 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.800 they were not protected by copyright. They were public domain articles. 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.840 So you've got the argument from some people who say, 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:10.839 if it's in the public domain, it should be publicly accessible. 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:16.280 There should not be a wall between the consumer and 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:21.200 the content because it's it's public domain. It's no one 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:25.440 owns the copyright to that anymore. Yeah. Yeah, and that's uh, 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.560 that that too makes sense that he would use that 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:31.640 as a target. Um the flip that. My My counter 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:35.920 argument would be, uh that J store probably keeps that 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:40.920 behind the wall because they need people to provide funding 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:44.400 for hardware and for salaries the people who work with 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:49.280 the product. Yes, I do banned costs and costs. There's 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:53.200 there's operations. There are real operational costs to operating J store. 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:57.240 It's not like, you know, we can easily forget that 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:01.839 there are real costs associated with anything digital, right, I 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:03.520 mean it's easy for us to forget. I mean you 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:06.080 sit there and say, all right, sure, yeah, there's electricity 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:08.400 cost because you gotta pay to power the servers. But 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:10.680 then you think, well, then you've got to actually buy 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:12.600 the servers. And you don't just buy the servers. You 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:15.720 have to maintain the servers and buy backups so that 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.880 if a server fails, another one immediately goes online and 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:23.920 these these needs keep on going and the money there 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:26.040 is real money that you have to spend to do that. 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:32.080 So but there also maybe some agreements with the publishers 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:34.720 that they're licensing things with. Why that that might be 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:36.719 a reason why things are behind the paywall to is 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.560 not because not because the content itself is under copyright, 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:43.040 but because it's part of an overall agreement with an 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:46.880 actual publisher saying oh, well, sure we will license this 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.120 stuff to you, but part of that agreement is that 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.079 you have to keep all this stuff behind uh walled 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:58.280 garden as well. Now, um, when it comes to stuff 0:11:58.280 --> 0:11:59.920 in the public domain, we can also make the r 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.000 even of just because it's in the public domain doesn't 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:04.480 mean that you can just waltz up and grab a 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:08.920 copy with no consequences. For example, example I saw quoted 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:13.920 in a great article was about, um, let's say Shakespeare's works. 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:17.600 All right, Well, Shakespeare's works are in the public domain. 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:20.599 Yes you know he he did not renew that copyright. 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.640 It was very shortsighted of him and so, um, but 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:28.920 that doesn't mean that you could walk into a bookstore. 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:32.400 I was gonna say borders, but not anymore. So long 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:36.280 uh parting is such sweet sorrow. But you could walk 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:39.800 into a bookstore. You can't walk into a bookstore, lift 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:43.280 up a copy of Shakespeare's works and say this is 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:45.600 in public domain and then run out of the store 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:49.880 with no fear of being brought up on on shoplifting charges. 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.480 That's not the way it works, right. And likewise, you 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:55.439 might say, well, there's a copy available at my local 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:57.360 public library and I can go read it for free, 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.760 and that's true. Ye, Well that maybe a copy of 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.640 your public library may have been lost. Uh no, I'm kidding, um. 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:07.720 But the thing is that that's not free either, because 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:11.120 taxpayers are footing the bill for keeping the library open, 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:15.440 for building the collection, um, for paying the librarians and 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:18.560 the other people who work in the library to be 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:22.120 there and make that that available, um, and and for 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:24.959 buying a new copy when somebody wears it out or 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:28.359 spells grape juice all over it. So I mean there, 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:30.720 you know, I'm not saying that that. Uh. You know, 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:33.440 it's necessarily right to keep an item that is in 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:36.640 the public domain behind a paywall, but there are reasons 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:39.079 why you might charge to make it available because there 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.599 are are costs associated with it. So I see I 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:44.360 see an argument for either side, because I think public 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:48.280 domain information should be you know, free and available. But 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.400 you know they're there are logistical things too, you know. 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:53.760 But now you could also make the argument that let's 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.240 say that you've got a bunch of material that is 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:01.640 no longer protected under copyright and it and you go 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:04.080 ahead and you get hold of that, there's nothing that 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:07.400 stops you from distributing that content. That you can distribute 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:09.120 it as much as you want once you have it, 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.760 like you may, it might get a little tricky. You 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:14.640 might have to make a copy of it in such 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:17.440 a way that if someone else has added something to that. 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:19.840 Like let's say again you take a copy of the 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:24.040 complete works of Shakespeare and their uh annotations and notes 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.200 in there, that makes it more complicated. But let's say 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.920 that you were to buy hand copy every single one 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:34.040 of Shakespeare's plays and then you decide to make as 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:36.120 many copies of that distribute it to as many people 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:40.240 as you want. That's perfectly fine. So there's some people 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:44.280 who are asking, well, was Sworts trying to do the 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:47.080 equivalent of that? Was he trying to get hold of 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:51.400 material that is in the public domain and thus put 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:56.760 it up for people to share as widely as they want, um, 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:01.160 because it's in public domain. So therefore there's no there 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.400 where's the law being broken like you can't if there's 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:09.680 no copyright there. See, this is where it's getting complicated. 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.960 And and to be honest, not all these questions are 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.240 are even we're not we're not capable of answering them 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.840 because we're not lawyers. But more importantly, there's not a 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:24.240 lot of law around this kind of issue. A lot 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:25.800 of the a lot of the laws that sports has 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.160 been brought up on our charges that have been brought 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:30.520 against him have to do with wire tapping and that 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.000 sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah, actually I was I was 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:36.800 going to uh to go through those really quickly. Here. Um, 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:41.560 the charges right now that I've read about UM from 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:45.720 the U S attorneys include UM, computer fraud, wire fraud, 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:50.560 obtaining information from a protected computer, and criminal forfeiture. And 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:52.960 he does face up to thirty five years in prison 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:58.400 and three years of supervised release if he is convicted. UM. 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.760 So yeah, I mean, this is this is no laughing matter. 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:05.800 But but these issues are why it's well, I think 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.320 it's why the the copyright holders, the people like the 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:12.120 R I a A and the m p A A 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:17.840 are so afraid because it's not clear. I think, you know, honestly, 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.360 I think they probably would enjoy being able to make 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:24.640 their stuff available to people in different formats, but they're 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:26.840 scared that people can just make one copy and run 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.000 off with it and nobody gets paid. Uh, and that 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:32.960 you know, it's a somewhat legitimate concern, but but in 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:35.160 this case, you know, it's different. But I do think 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:37.840 that's a lot of why. I mean, the laws are vague. 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.240 They you know, these technologies haven't been around for a 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.240 long time, and you know, governments are are not exactly 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:48.120 known for their speedy uh reaction time on trying to 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.840 resolve these issues, and especially now the new technologies are 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:57.280 available uh and are changing the way we do business. Um, 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.400 you know, it's it's just muddying the water that that 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:02.960 much further. And so this it's going to be interesting 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:06.840 to see how this case comes out, because you know, 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:09.080 it may set precedence for how we handle a lot 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:13.240 of these copyright issues online. Sure, and really a lot 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:16.680 of the problems that come up around this center around 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.120 the fact that we're talking about digital products, which are 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:22.520 are they lack something that real products quote unquote real 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:27.280 or analog products have ye scarcity. Yeah, that's true, there's 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.280 no there's no such thing as scarcity in a digital world. 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.119 That's true, and there there is. Uh. There's also a 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.399 lack of substance to them as well, so they are 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:38.800 like a substance and most of the things I buy. 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:43.720 Uh no, um, there is no there's no physical manifestation 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:48.000 of form factor there the document which adds to of 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.159 course adds to the effect at the effect that you 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.080 can make as many copies of this as you want 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:54.639 to and distribute it as in a matter of seconds 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:58.480 around the world. Um. So it just it makes it 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:03.040 very difficult to create laws that that both protect the 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:07.040 the person who created it and the consumer and and 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:10.040 the consumer both and give them both rights, you know, 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:13.600 the producer to get paid and the the other person 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:15.960 to access that content on a fair basis. So for 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.600 those of you listening who who don't have a grip 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.320 on the scarcity issue, I'm sure most of you do. 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:24.840 But just in case, Uh, if we're talking about physical products, 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:27.400 let's say that that Chris, is, what do you want 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:29.760 to have? Let's just pick a physical thing that you 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.479 want to to have as a product that you are offering. 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:34.600 I was gonna assign one to you, but I'm going 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:36.600 to give you the option of choosing one. Well, are 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:38.919 we talking about something that I would do now? No, No, 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:41.400 anything like anything pine in the sky. If you want 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.760 to say unicorns, you can say unicorns. No, I want 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.520 to say unicorns. Okay, So Chris is offering he's got 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:50.879 ten unicorns for sale, and I really want one of 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:53.120 those unicorns, but I don't want to, you know, pay 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.400 for one, because I'm a nefarious ne'er do well, as 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.840 quoted at the beginning of the show and so pretty accurate, 0:18:59.880 --> 0:19:02.240 I decided that I am going to take one of 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:04.479 those unicorns, and I take one of the unicorns. Now 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:09.879 Chris has nine unicorns. So Chris has nine unicorns, and 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:13.639 he's out one unicorn with no no amount of money 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.280 that he was going to ask for said unicorn. So 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:18.760 I have stolen it. Do you know how hard it 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:21.879 is to breed unicorns these days? I imagine it's going 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:24.120 to be very difficult because I hardly see them anywhere, 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:26.840 but I see the meat on over at Think Geek. 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:30.880 They sell the canned unicorn meat there. So um, anyway, 0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:34.280 so I've I've decided to take a tasty unicorn, and 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:36.280 I did not pay for it, so I have stolen it. 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:39.440 And that it's it's easy to see that, right, because 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:42.639 there's evidence there. Chris had ten unicorns. Now he has 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:45.720 nine unicorns. He has no extra money. This is this 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.240 is something that is easy for us to make laws about. 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:51.280 I mean, granted, not about unicorns, but you know, stealing 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:54.359 in general. That's easy to make laws that cover this 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:58.560 sort of thing because it's it's a concrete example that 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.720 I have taken something from someone else without giving them 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:05.560 what they were asking. And so easy to see, yeah, 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:08.320 because you can actually see it. It's in his backyard. Yeah. 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.399 And and and we're talking like the these are this 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:14.359 is an ancient concept. I mean, we have every single 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:18.439 major civilization that ever exists and had some sort of 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.080 law protecting people against theft. And and that goes back 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.960 to the very founding of the United States. Of course, Uh, 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:28.280 you know, we're not the only people in the world 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:32.399 to have copyright. Copy right actually predated the formation of 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:35.480 the United States by I would guess I can't remember 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:37.040 the last time I've read this, but I think about 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.280 two or three centuries maybe somewhere in there. I mean, 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:44.880 not not along, not thousands of years, um. But in 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:50.119 the Constitution, Article one, section eight, clause eight um, the 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:52.239 Congress shall have power and it goes into all these 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:55.359 different powers to promote the progress of science and useful 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:58.320 arts by securing, for limited times to authors and inventors 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:02.280 the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries. That's 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:06.320 really vague, but it assigned a basic copyright. It gave 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.720 you the opportunity to make something and get something for it. 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:11.639 And this is where it got gets a little more 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.920 complicated because now we're talking about ideas, and ideas are 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:18.240 not like unicorns. Now they're not. I wish I'd pick 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:21.040 something different. Now. The ideas are not like physical product 0:21:21.440 --> 0:21:24.320 products that actually have a true like there there's a 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:27.119 physical representation of them, and they are not you know, 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:30.920 you can't just clone a physical product over and over 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:33.040 and over again at no cost. Well, actually, you know 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:35.440 what my original choice, until you said unicorns was a 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:38.480 Guttenberg bible. They're very very few. Well now there are 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:43.320 very very few of them, right, and we also yeah, 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:45.960 there you go. Okay, so so you would not be 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:48.760 able to produce a new Gutenberg Bible, which not not 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:54.040 an actual burg Bible would really freak me out. Man, 0:21:54.080 --> 0:21:56.199 I'm not doing well with this. It's okay, okay, but 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:58.920 I mean, yeah, something, Well, a Bible in this case 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:02.040 is older than Yeah. Say, he had a rare, rare 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:05.199 book that was published and there maybe twenty of them 0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:08.520 left in the world, and it's the first edition of 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:10.199 this book that was printed a hundred and fifty two 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:12.960 hundred years ago or something like that. So at any rate, 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:16.080 the theft of that is obvious. Now let's talk about 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:18.800 a digital version of that. Now, a digital version of 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:22.800 that same book. Uh, you don't steal the original, you 0:22:22.880 --> 0:22:26.240 make a copy. So the original is still exactly where 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:29.040 it was. So Chris still has If you had the 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:32.240 twenty unicorns, ten unicorns, that's what it was, right. Let's 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:36.040 say now you've got ten virtual unicorns, ten files that 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:40.119 are called Unicorn one, Unicorn two, Unicorn three, and I 0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:42.639 have gone and I'm like, I want one of those unicorns, 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:45.000 those digital unicorns, and I go and I make a 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:49.199 copy of Unicorn one. Well, from Chris's perspective, he hasn't 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:54.480 lost anything physically. He still has those ten files. Yes, right, 0:22:54.600 --> 0:23:00.520