1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you hey there, Text Stuff listeners, This 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: is Jonathan Strickland and I have got a request for 4 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: all of you. Now, Chris and I have decided that 5 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: we're going to try and experiment. We're doing our first 6 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: crowd sourced episode of tech Stuff and we want to 7 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: know what your pick is for the worst video game 8 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: of all time. Now, nominations you can. You can make 9 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 1: one nomination. You nominate one game, and you need to 10 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 1: tell us the name of the game and the platform 11 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: it was on. And it could be any platform. It 12 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: could be an arcade game, it could be a PC, Mac, Xbox, 13 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: PS three, Nintendo handheld console. It can be web based 14 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 1: if you like. But just you let us know what 15 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: the platform is so we can make sure we count 16 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: that as the votes. So you can nominate your game 17 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: either through email, which is tech Stuff at how stuff 18 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: works dot com, or you can nominate through Twitter or Facebook. 19 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: And we're gonna put a cut off date on this. 20 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: I want to have the episode go up by the 21 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: end of September of eleven. So let's say you need 22 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: to get your nominations in by September eleven, So if 23 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: you get those nominations into us, we will make sure 24 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: we include those in the process and we will have 25 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: an episode where we give you the worst video games 26 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: of all time based upon the votes of our listeners. 27 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: Thanks a lot. Can't wait to hear from you. Get 28 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how stuff 29 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, everyone, Welcome to tech Stuff. My 30 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: name is Chris Poulette, and I am an editor at 31 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. Sitting across from me, as 32 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: he frequently does, is senior writer Jonathan Strickland. I'm the 33 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: dandy highwayman who you're too scared to mention. I spend 34 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: my cash on looking flash and grabbing your attention. Okay, 35 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: I told giggled when I when I thought of that too. Yeah. 36 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: Sometimes when I come up with the quotes, uh that 37 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: I use at the beginning of podcasts, it's immediately before 38 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: we start recording, like today, and I started cackling as 39 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: soon as I thought of which one I wanted to do. Anyway, 40 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: today we're gonna talk about digital theft, but we're really 41 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: going to focus on a specific case here, and it's 42 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: an interesting one. Christie. Want to set this up. Yeah, well, 43 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: where where does start? I guess we should just start 44 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: specifically with the details. Um. There is a I guess 45 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: it's probably best to call him an activist named Aaron 46 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: Schwartz Um who was arrested in Boston a few days 47 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: before we were recording this UM in early August of 48 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, and he's been accused of taking four 49 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:56,399 Speaker 1: million UH digital documents essentially from UH from the Massachusetts 50 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: Instituted Technology m i T and J Store, which is 51 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: an online digital repository of scholarly journal art. Yes, journal 52 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 1: storage is essentially what JAY Store stands for. Yeah. Um, yeah. 53 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: Anybody who's listening, who is UH, who is either in 54 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: college now or you know, recently, probably in the last 55 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: ten or seven years, probably is familiar with jay Store, 56 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: especially in the humanities and UM related related things. But um, yeah. 57 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: So he's been basically charged with essentially sneaking into a 58 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: closet on the m i T campus, hooking up a 59 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: computer with removable drive uh to the network equipment, and 60 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: downloading millions of documents, and the the federal government has 61 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: charges out against him. The federal government, the United States 62 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: federal government alleges that Swortz's intent was to distribute these 63 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: files in a manner filed distribution distribution matterer usually peer 64 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: to peer network like like the Pirate Bay something like that. Right, 65 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: that that's the allegation, although um, everything I read up 66 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: till the recording of this podcast suggests that there's not 67 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: really any actual, uh publicly known evidence to support this. 68 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: That it's really just an allegation that's based upon Sports's 69 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: history and the fact that he actually got these four 70 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: million documents. Here. Here's some interesting things about this case 71 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: that are a little odd to me, just on the 72 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: surface level. So you've got Sports who has uh apparently 73 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: broken into M I T in order to download these documents, 74 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: leaving the computer there. Because of course we're talking about 75 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: millions of files, so this is taking a while to 76 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: to happen. Uh. He was working over at Harvard. Harvard 77 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: also has access to j store documents. J Store documents 78 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: if you don't know, uh, you know, colleges will pay 79 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,799 Speaker 1: some sort of subscription fee in order to access different 80 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: parts of j stores database. Yeah, I can. I can 81 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: get into that and lots more detail if you want, sure, 82 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: because that's an important part of this discussion. Actually I 83 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: mean to really understand this case, and I don't even 84 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: say that I fully understand it, but you need to 85 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: get all the details to to really kind of get 86 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: a grip on on what this means. Yeah. That that's 87 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: the funny thing to me about this particular case, because 88 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: a lot of times people who are are breaking into 89 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: and stealing electronic files from people, I think of them 90 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: is going after the big targets, people who basically are 91 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: UM specifically involved in copyright fights, people like the movie 92 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: industry or the recording industry, where they're saying, I'm doing 93 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: this because the industry is repressing, you know, as as 94 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 1: making this this information unavailable to the public. J Store, 95 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: on the other hand, is a nonprofit J store, as 96 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,359 Speaker 1: you mentioned, is it's short for a journal storage and 97 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: it's um. It was actually founded as a way to 98 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: uh to make journal articles available online, digitized and then 99 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: uh and then made available to institutions. At one point 100 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: there were only a handful of journals available and handful 101 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: of colleges and universities that subscribe to them. But over 102 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 1: time it's it's grown uh amazingly to be honest, Um, 103 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: the thing is with j store, they do collect fees 104 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: from all these institutions, partially for equipment, partially to help 105 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: fund institutions that have a tougher time with the fees um, 106 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: and they have to negotiate. A big part of that too, 107 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: is the the licenses that they have to negotiate with 108 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: publishers because um, you know these uh J store is 109 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: not um you know, the publisher of a lot of 110 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: these documents UM. And not everything of course is is 111 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: UM is owned by someone. The copyright is is uh 112 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: only valid for some of the stuff. Some of the 113 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: other stuff is older and and not in the not 114 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: under copyright anymore. So UM. The thing is, though, that 115 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: the publishers may have different requirements for for being published 116 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: in J Store, like some some publishers have absolutely no 117 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: qualms about making a journal article or an issue of 118 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: a journal available on J Store immediately after it's been published, 119 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: so it goes to press and then it ends up 120 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,679 Speaker 1: on the shelf at the library and at the same 121 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: time you can access it digitally. But others might require 122 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: an embargo of six months to a year. UH, so 123 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: you may you know, they may expect you to go 124 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: to the uh the library and actually pick it up now. UM. 125 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: Part of the benefit to UH these databases is that 126 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: it makes it available more widely, especially for distance learning students. UM. 127 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: But it also helps mitigate the cost somewhat of subscribing 128 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: to some of these journals, which can be very very 129 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: expensive and sometimes in the case of thousands of dollars. 130 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: Because you know, these magazine are UH are not like 131 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: you know, Time or UM, you know, Rolling Stone or 132 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: something like that, where they're subsidized by advertising. It's that 133 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: you know, these these are scholarly journals and they have 134 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: a much smaller UM readership, so they have to charge 135 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: a lot more to keep them in print. UM, and 136 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: this using these databases can make it a little easier. 137 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: It also frees up space on the library shelves, so 138 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: that's UM, you know, another benefit to doing that. But 139 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: UM but yeah, j store Is is essentially though a 140 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: nonprofit but and makes it available through grant funding from 141 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: the Melon Foundation and UH and other sources. So I 142 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 1: still find it odd that that he would target a UM, 143 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: that he would target a nonprofit organization that's that's dedicated 144 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: to this specific purpose rather than somebody else. That seems 145 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: like it would be more a more obvious target if 146 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: you were going after people who were h enforcing copyright 147 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: right and to to make this even more complicated, J Store. 148 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: You know, when we're talking about these these fees that 149 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: that mostly libraries and UH and and universities pay in 150 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: order to get access to some of these libraries that 151 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: J store has available, UH, that money is not really 152 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: going toward J Store. That money is going to pay 153 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: off the uh the licensing fees J store has to 154 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: pay to these publishers in order to get access to 155 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: these documents in the first place. UH. So you know, 156 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,839 Speaker 1: you can't really vilify J store too much. They're not 157 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: it's not like it's a for profit uh corporation. It's 158 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: it's a non for profit, So it's not you know, 159 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: they're they're trying to provide a service. So in a 160 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: way they're caught in the middle in this. But another 161 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: complicated issue is that more than half of the documents 162 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: that that sports was grabbing were in the public domain 163 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: in the sense that copyright had expired on these these 164 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: are they were either old enough so that they were 165 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: no longer under copyright or otherwise they were no longer 166 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: they were not protected by copyright. They were public domain articles. 167 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: So you've got the argument from some people who say, 168 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 1: if it's in the public domain, it should be publicly accessible. 169 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: There should not be a wall between the consumer and 170 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: the content because it's it's public domain. It's no one 171 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: owns the copyright to that anymore. Yeah. Yeah, and that's uh, 172 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: that that too makes sense that he would use that 173 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: as a target. Um the flip that. My My counter 174 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: argument would be, uh that J store probably keeps that 175 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: behind the wall because they need people to provide funding 176 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: for hardware and for salaries the people who work with 177 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: the product. Yes, I do banned costs and costs. There's 178 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: there's operations. There are real operational costs to operating J store. 179 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: It's not like, you know, we can easily forget that 180 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 1: there are real costs associated with anything digital, right, I 181 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: mean it's easy for us to forget. I mean you 182 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: sit there and say, all right, sure, yeah, there's electricity 183 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: cost because you gotta pay to power the servers. But 184 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: then you think, well, then you've got to actually buy 185 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: the servers. And you don't just buy the servers. You 186 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: have to maintain the servers and buy backups so that 187 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: if a server fails, another one immediately goes online and 188 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: these these needs keep on going and the money there 189 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: is real money that you have to spend to do that. 190 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: So but there also maybe some agreements with the publishers 191 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: that they're licensing things with. Why that that might be 192 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:36,719 Speaker 1: a reason why things are behind the paywall to is 193 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: not because not because the content itself is under copyright, 194 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: but because it's part of an overall agreement with an 195 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: actual publisher saying oh, well, sure we will license this 196 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: stuff to you, but part of that agreement is that 197 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 1: you have to keep all this stuff behind uh walled 198 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: garden as well. Now, um, when it comes to stuff 199 00:11:58,280 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: in the public domain, we can also make the r 200 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: even of just because it's in the public domain doesn't 201 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: mean that you can just waltz up and grab a 202 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: copy with no consequences. For example, example I saw quoted 203 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: in a great article was about, um, let's say Shakespeare's works. 204 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: All right, Well, Shakespeare's works are in the public domain. 205 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,599 Speaker 1: Yes you know he he did not renew that copyright. 206 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: It was very shortsighted of him and so, um, but 207 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that you could walk into a bookstore. 208 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: I was gonna say borders, but not anymore. So long 209 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: uh parting is such sweet sorrow. But you could walk 210 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: into a bookstore. You can't walk into a bookstore, lift 211 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: up a copy of Shakespeare's works and say this is 212 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: in public domain and then run out of the store 213 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: with no fear of being brought up on on shoplifting charges. 214 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: That's not the way it works, right. And likewise, you 215 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 1: might say, well, there's a copy available at my local 216 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: public library and I can go read it for free, 217 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: and that's true. Ye, Well that maybe a copy of 218 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: your public library may have been lost. Uh no, I'm kidding, um. 219 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: But the thing is that that's not free either, because 220 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: taxpayers are footing the bill for keeping the library open, 221 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 1: for building the collection, um, for paying the librarians and 222 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: the other people who work in the library to be 223 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: there and make that that available, um, and and for 224 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 1: buying a new copy when somebody wears it out or 225 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,359 Speaker 1: spells grape juice all over it. So I mean there, 226 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not saying that that. Uh. You know, 227 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: it's necessarily right to keep an item that is in 228 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: the public domain behind a paywall, but there are reasons 229 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 1: why you might charge to make it available because there 230 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,599 Speaker 1: are are costs associated with it. So I see I 231 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: see an argument for either side, because I think public 232 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: domain information should be you know, free and available. But 233 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: you know they're there are logistical things too, you know. 234 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: But now you could also make the argument that let's 235 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: say that you've got a bunch of material that is 236 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: no longer protected under copyright and it and you go 237 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: ahead and you get hold of that, there's nothing that 238 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: stops you from distributing that content. That you can distribute 239 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: it as much as you want once you have it, 240 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: like you may, it might get a little tricky. You 241 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: might have to make a copy of it in such 242 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: a way that if someone else has added something to that. 243 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: Like let's say again you take a copy of the 244 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: complete works of Shakespeare and their uh annotations and notes 245 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: in there, that makes it more complicated. But let's say 246 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: that you were to buy hand copy every single one 247 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: of Shakespeare's plays and then you decide to make as 248 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: many copies of that distribute it to as many people 249 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: as you want. That's perfectly fine. So there's some people 250 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: who are asking, well, was Sworts trying to do the 251 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: equivalent of that? Was he trying to get hold of 252 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: material that is in the public domain and thus put 253 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: it up for people to share as widely as they want, um, 254 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: because it's in public domain. So therefore there's no there 255 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 1: where's the law being broken like you can't if there's 256 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: no copyright there. See, this is where it's getting complicated. 257 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: And and to be honest, not all these questions are 258 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: are even we're not we're not capable of answering them 259 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: because we're not lawyers. But more importantly, there's not a 260 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: lot of law around this kind of issue. A lot 261 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: of the a lot of the laws that sports has 262 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: been brought up on our charges that have been brought 263 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: against him have to do with wire tapping and that 264 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah, actually I was I was 265 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: going to uh to go through those really quickly. Here. Um, 266 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: the charges right now that I've read about UM from 267 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: the U S attorneys include UM, computer fraud, wire fraud, 268 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: obtaining information from a protected computer, and criminal forfeiture. And 269 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: he does face up to thirty five years in prison 270 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: and three years of supervised release if he is convicted. UM. 271 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, this is this is no laughing matter. 272 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: But but these issues are why it's well, I think 273 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: it's why the the copyright holders, the people like the 274 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: R I a A and the m p A A 275 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: are so afraid because it's not clear. I think, you know, honestly, 276 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: I think they probably would enjoy being able to make 277 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: their stuff available to people in different formats, but they're 278 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: scared that people can just make one copy and run 279 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: off with it and nobody gets paid. Uh, and that 280 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: you know, it's a somewhat legitimate concern, but but in 281 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: this case, you know, it's different. But I do think 282 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: that's a lot of why. I mean, the laws are vague. 283 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: They you know, these technologies haven't been around for a 284 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: long time, and you know, governments are are not exactly 285 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: known for their speedy uh reaction time on trying to 286 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: resolve these issues, and especially now the new technologies are 287 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: available uh and are changing the way we do business. Um, 288 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's just muddying the water that that 289 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: much further. And so this it's going to be interesting 290 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: to see how this case comes out, because you know, 291 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: it may set precedence for how we handle a lot 292 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: of these copyright issues online. Sure, and really a lot 293 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: of the problems that come up around this center around 294 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 1: the fact that we're talking about digital products, which are 295 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: are they lack something that real products quote unquote real 296 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: or analog products have ye scarcity. Yeah, that's true, there's 297 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: no there's no such thing as scarcity in a digital world. 298 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: That's true, and there there is. Uh. There's also a 299 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: lack of substance to them as well, so they are 300 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: like a substance and most of the things I buy. 301 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: Uh no, um, there is no there's no physical manifestation 302 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: of form factor there the document which adds to of 303 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: course adds to the effect at the effect that you 304 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: can make as many copies of this as you want 305 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: to and distribute it as in a matter of seconds 306 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: around the world. Um. So it just it makes it 307 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: very difficult to create laws that that both protect the 308 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: the person who created it and the consumer and and 309 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: the consumer both and give them both rights, you know, 310 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: the producer to get paid and the the other person 311 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: to access that content on a fair basis. So for 312 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: those of you listening who who don't have a grip 313 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: on the scarcity issue, I'm sure most of you do. 314 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: But just in case, Uh, if we're talking about physical products, 315 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: let's say that that Chris, is, what do you want 316 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: to have? Let's just pick a physical thing that you 317 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,479 Speaker 1: want to to have as a product that you are offering. 318 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: I was gonna assign one to you, but I'm going 319 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: to give you the option of choosing one. Well, are 320 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: we talking about something that I would do now? No, No, 321 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 1: anything like anything pine in the sky. If you want 322 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: to say unicorns, you can say unicorns. No, I want 323 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: to say unicorns. Okay, So Chris is offering he's got 324 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: ten unicorns for sale, and I really want one of 325 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: those unicorns, but I don't want to, you know, pay 326 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 1: for one, because I'm a nefarious ne'er do well, as 327 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: quoted at the beginning of the show and so pretty accurate, 328 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: I decided that I am going to take one of 329 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,479 Speaker 1: those unicorns, and I take one of the unicorns. Now 330 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 1: Chris has nine unicorns. So Chris has nine unicorns, and 331 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: he's out one unicorn with no no amount of money 332 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: that he was going to ask for said unicorn. So 333 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: I have stolen it. Do you know how hard it 334 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: is to breed unicorns these days? I imagine it's going 335 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: to be very difficult because I hardly see them anywhere, 336 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: but I see the meat on over at Think Geek. 337 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 1: They sell the canned unicorn meat there. So um, anyway, 338 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: so I've I've decided to take a tasty unicorn, and 339 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: I did not pay for it, so I have stolen it. 340 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: And that it's it's easy to see that, right, because 341 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: there's evidence there. Chris had ten unicorns. Now he has 342 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: nine unicorns. He has no extra money. This is this 343 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: is something that is easy for us to make laws about. 344 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: I mean, granted, not about unicorns, but you know, stealing 345 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: in general. That's easy to make laws that cover this 346 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: sort of thing because it's it's a concrete example that 347 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: I have taken something from someone else without giving them 348 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: what they were asking. And so easy to see, yeah, 349 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: because you can actually see it. It's in his backyard. Yeah. 350 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: And and and we're talking like the these are this 351 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: is an ancient concept. I mean, we have every single 352 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: major civilization that ever exists and had some sort of 353 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: law protecting people against theft. And and that goes back 354 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: to the very founding of the United States. Of course, Uh, 355 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: you know, we're not the only people in the world 356 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: to have copyright. Copy right actually predated the formation of 357 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: the United States by I would guess I can't remember 358 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: the last time I've read this, but I think about 359 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: two or three centuries maybe somewhere in there. I mean, 360 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 1: not not along, not thousands of years, um. But in 361 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: the Constitution, Article one, section eight, clause eight um, the 362 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,239 Speaker 1: Congress shall have power and it goes into all these 363 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: different powers to promote the progress of science and useful 364 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: arts by securing, for limited times to authors and inventors 365 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries. That's 366 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: really vague, but it assigned a basic copyright. It gave 367 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: you the opportunity to make something and get something for it. 368 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: And this is where it got gets a little more 369 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 1: complicated because now we're talking about ideas, and ideas are 370 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: not like unicorns. Now they're not. I wish I'd pick 371 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: something different. Now. The ideas are not like physical product 372 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: products that actually have a true like there there's a 373 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: physical representation of them, and they are not you know, 374 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: you can't just clone a physical product over and over 375 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: and over again at no cost. Well, actually, you know 376 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: what my original choice, until you said unicorns was a 377 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: Guttenberg bible. They're very very few. Well now there are 378 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: very very few of them, right, and we also yeah, 379 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: there you go. Okay, so so you would not be 380 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: able to produce a new Gutenberg Bible, which not not 381 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: an actual burg Bible would really freak me out. Man, 382 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: I'm not doing well with this. It's okay, okay, but 383 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, something, Well, a Bible in this case 384 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: is older than Yeah. Say, he had a rare, rare 385 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 1: book that was published and there maybe twenty of them 386 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: left in the world, and it's the first edition of 387 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 1: this book that was printed a hundred and fifty two 388 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: hundred years ago or something like that. So at any rate, 389 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: the theft of that is obvious. Now let's talk about 390 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: a digital version of that. Now, a digital version of 391 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: that same book. Uh, you don't steal the original, you 392 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: make a copy. So the original is still exactly where 393 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: it was. So Chris still has If you had the 394 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: twenty unicorns, ten unicorns, that's what it was, right. Let's 395 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: say now you've got ten virtual unicorns, ten files that 396 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 1: are called Unicorn one, Unicorn two, Unicorn three, and I 397 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: have gone and I'm like, I want one of those unicorns, 398 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: those digital unicorns, and I go and I make a 399 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: copy of Unicorn one. Well, from Chris's perspective, he hasn't 400 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: lost anything physically. He still has those ten files. Yes, right, 401 00:22:54,600 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: so so it's different from the the the tride additional 402 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: route of of theft defining what theft is and being 403 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: able to punish theft. Uh. Now it's still I have 404 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: managed to take something from Chris without giving him anything 405 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: in return. But it you know, you can't defining the punishment, 406 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: defining the crime. You can't use the old model to 407 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: really fit the new crime, right, I mean, it just 408 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't It doesn't encompass the same thing. So that's 409 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 1: where we're at right now. We're at this this point 410 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: in our history where we have not yet truly defined 411 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: what these crimes are, what they encompass, how they should 412 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 1: be punished. We keep trying to use these old models 413 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: that don't really fit the new the new model of 414 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: of the way things work. That's where we're starting to 415 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: fall into a lot of these issues. And people like 416 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 1: Sworts have been putting this out for years. Um and 417 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: he's not the only one. Lawrence Lessig, of course, Uh, 418 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: the professor at Harvard has been talking about issues with 419 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 1: intellectual property and copyright laws and copyright law reform for years. 420 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 1: And in fact, Lessig and and Sorts have a history 421 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: of working together on different projects like the Creative Commons project, 422 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: and um, you know, these are really smart people who 423 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: are pointing out we can't continue to try and enforce 424 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: new ways of thinking into old models because it's just 425 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: not gonna work. We have to come up with a 426 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: new way of of dealing with these these approaches. Um, 427 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: because that's the way the world's going. It doesn't matter 428 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: if you like it or if you don't like it, 429 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: if you think things should be if they if you 430 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: think the information should be free, or if you think 431 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: it shouldn't be free. And by free, we're talking about 432 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: freely accessible, not necessarily uh you know, not that there's 433 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: no cost associated with it. Like we say information wants 434 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: to be free. Do you mean that information wants to 435 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,360 Speaker 1: be out there in the world or do you mean 436 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: information wants to cost no money? I think most people 437 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: would argue the first rather than the second. So in 438 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: other words, as long as a company is able to 439 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: make stuff available uh two consumers in an easy way, 440 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:19,199 Speaker 1: an easy, timely, inexpensive way, then consumers are pretty much 441 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: happy to go and flock to it. If they are 442 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: not willing to do that, then consumers will then turn 443 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: to piracy. Yes, so, um, there was an interesting discussion 444 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 1: I read about how this this balance between free and 445 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: paid and and this balance between intellectual property and and 446 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 1: uh public domain. And part of the argument was going 447 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: that we have companies that will promote something, um, let's 448 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: say it's a video game, So they'll pour a whole 449 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: bunch of money into promotion in months and months and 450 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: months of promotion, which ratchets up the anticipation of the 451 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: people who are the customers, right they to play this game. 452 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,040 Speaker 1: And as that anticipation ratchets up and up and up 453 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: and the game has yet to come out, those people 454 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: are more likely to turn towards privacy because they have 455 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: this anticipation. They want to satisfy, They want to have 456 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: the experience of playing this game, but they have not 457 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,479 Speaker 1: They don't have a legitimate pathway to get there, so 458 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: they take the illegitimate pathway. So in other words, it's 459 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: not that it's the fault necessarily of the content creator, 460 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: but they are somewhat enabling this culture of piracy. So 461 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: in order to take that out, you need to think 462 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: think of a new way of approaching your your products. 463 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: Perhaps you don't promote your product months and months and 464 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: months ahead of time and build up this anticipation. Perhaps 465 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: you create ah an early build and you charge a 466 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: very small amount for it, you make it easily available, 467 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 1: and you at least are able to profit on that 468 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: anticipation early on. The solutions have not all presented themselves. 469 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,479 Speaker 1: But the point is that taking the old way of 470 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: doing things is just not gonna work because the world 471 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 1: is changing. So whether you want information to be free 472 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: or not is not the point. Information is going to 473 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: be free. Well, UM, you know I should point out 474 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: I feel compelled to point out that that sports is 475 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: actually available or is also affiliated with a nonprofit himself. 476 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: UM to achieve to achieve what he you know sees 477 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 1: is uh some some attempts to make information more freely available. UM. 478 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: And this organization is called Demand Progress. UM. They basically 479 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: have said that they are interested in, uh finding ways 480 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: to change public policy that they see is uh choking 481 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: the internet, making the internet uh difficult to use, I guess, 482 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: or difficult to get information that you need on the Internet. 483 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: And let's say that and UH. One of those those issues, 484 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: according to the Senate article I read, was the protect 485 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: ip Act, which in the United States, UM, it is 486 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: basically designed to help block access to UM websites that 487 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 1: are suspected of piracy. Um, and so it international websites 488 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: to yeah, not just the United States, but internationally actually, 489 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: I think, I think almost exclusively internationally. But it's which 490 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: is kind of interesting because you're like, how do you 491 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: how do you then, uh, enforce something that is on 492 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: international websites, Although the argument could be made you do 493 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: it by limiting what where sites from within the US 494 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: can link out to that, including things like search engines. Now, um, 495 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: I uh, you know, the the FBI has actually also 496 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: investigated him previously to um for or at least according 497 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: to Boing Boing Again this was quoted in that Senate 498 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: article that I read, But they basically have been looking 499 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: at him for trying to get US court records from 500 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: the Public Access to Court Electronic Records Database. Um. This 501 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: was back in two thousand and nine. So yeah, I 502 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: mean they probably had their eye on him, and it's 503 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,959 Speaker 1: it made play a mitigating factor in what's going on. 504 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: I mean, if they believe that he has a threat, 505 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: they will probably make sure that they they send him 506 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: a message. Yeah. Yeah, there. I did read that that 507 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: one potential motive for the federal government was that, you know, 508 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: they were essentially trying to to um. They they were 509 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: still angry over the two thousand and eight uh Pacer issue. 510 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: UM that was the whole well Swards ended up participating 511 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: in a call for downloading documents from from a government 512 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: database of court records, which you were talking about their 513 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: Chris and um and he did it really really well 514 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: and uh it was because there was this brief moment 515 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: where these documents were free, when normally they would cost 516 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: about eight cents per page. And so Swartz ended up 517 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: downloading I think like um, well, around twenty million of them, 518 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: So twenty million documents that were free at that point 519 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: that normally cost eight since per page. He got hold 520 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: of the twenty million of those. The government got a 521 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: little upset about that, but Swarts did not break any laws. 522 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: He was following the law. The loss said that at 523 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: that point they were free and that anyone could download 524 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: as many as they wanted. It's sort of like if 525 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: you open up a buffet restaurant and someone comes in 526 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: and sits down and they start going to the buffet table, 527 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: and they go to the buffet table like fifteen twenty times, 528 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: and you think, well, you know, you should really go 529 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: and think, well, I haven't had all I can eat 530 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: yet it says all you can eat, and I have 531 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: not eaten my film. You have been here four hours. 532 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: Um well, I also feel compelled to to point out that, um, 533 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,959 Speaker 1: that my note program just crashed. Um. But but sports 534 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: is not the only person to have to have acted, um, 535 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: you know on these principles. Um. Sure. I had been 536 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: reading too about Gregory Maxwell in an article on ours Technica, 537 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: who posted thirty two gigabytes with eighteen thousand, five hundred 538 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 1: ninety two scientific articles to bit towarrent and basically said 539 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: that uh, sports as arrest Uh was what UH decided 540 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: or what he used it as inspiration for for posting this. 541 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: And he said, um, there's a quote from him. All 542 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: too often, journals, galleries and museums are becoming not disseminators 543 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: of knowledge, as their lofty mission statements suggest, but censors 544 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: of knowledge, because censoring is the one thing they do 545 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: better than the Internet does. Um. So yeah, um, you 546 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: know it is possible too that that other people will 547 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: will act on uh on similar principles and decide to 548 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: do that themselves. Um. So that they're they're this is 549 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: definitely something that's that's not going to go away. No, 550 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: And this is this is a very as we've said, 551 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: this is a very complicated issue. You've got a lot 552 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: of different parties involved here. You've got the actual people 553 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: who are creating the content, You've got the people curating 554 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: the content, you've got the consumers of the content. Um, 555 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: you've got the government in there. I mean, the this 556 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: is one of those things that's going to take some 557 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: real legislation to kind of address. And even then, you know, 558 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: you know that at least one of the parties is 559 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: not going to be very happy about whatever the outcome is. 560 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: And so it'll be interesting to see how this story 561 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: develops as it moves on. The you know, it's it's 562 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: again it ties into things like we've talked about the 563 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: ethics of piracy before and whether piracy is ethical or not. 564 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: You can argue that, well, if you want to be 565 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: able to get uh, content that's in the public domain 566 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: out so that people can actually see it, um, is 567 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: there anything wrong with that? And you know, that's that's 568 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: a tough question to answer, you know, I mean, you 569 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: could argue that maybe for anything that's in public domain, 570 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: there should be at least an easy way to access it, 571 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: If not Um, you know, if not like just distributed 572 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: everywhere wherever it does reside, it should be pretty easy 573 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: to get to. But we just haven't created those systems 574 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: yet and in the process it's it's pretty ugly. Well, 575 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: that about wraps up this discussion on lots of interesting 576 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: topics and an intellectual property digital theft. You know, where 577 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: are we going from here? And honestly, we just don't 578 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: know until more time has passed. Yeah, it's it's it's funny. 579 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: We we often have a solution or something or an 580 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: idea of how we would would proceed with this, but 581 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: this is this is thorny. Yeah, that's a complicated issue 582 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: and it's uh and you know what, it will probably 583 00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: be a really tumultuous uh issue you for a while 584 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: and we won't really we'll get to a resolution, but 585 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: I bet it's going to be a rocky road, so 586 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: rocky road. On note, we're gonna wrap this up. If 587 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: you guys have any suggestions you would like us to 588 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: tackle in a future episode of tech Stuff, let us know. 589 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 1: You can find us on Facebook and Twitter are handled. 590 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: There is tech Stuff hs W where you can send 591 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: us an email on that addresses tech Stuff at how 592 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com and Chris and I will talk 593 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: to you again really soon. Be sure to check out 594 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: our new video podcast, Stuff from the Future. Join how 595 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: Stuffwork staff as we explore the most promising and perplexing 596 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: possibilities of tomorrow. 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