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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Crime Round Up.

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Speaker 2: I'm Cheryl McCollum and I am joined today like always,

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Speaker 2: with the one and only, the peerless Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, honey.

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Speaker 3: You know what, I can't even speak after I found

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Speaker 3: out that an anchor at my old TV home, seeing that,

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Speaker 3: of course I was at HLN, the sister network, actually

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Speaker 3: had the control room remove the lower banner, you know,

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Speaker 3: the lower third as they call it, so she could

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Speaker 3: get a better look at Luigi Minianni's body.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'm just what the yellow istro all of

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Speaker 4: these people to see. I cursed.

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Speaker 1: That's where I'm.

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Speaker 4: At right now.

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Speaker 2: If any situation called for that, it's right now, Nancy.

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Speaker 2: I have been just gobsmacked by the people that are

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Speaker 2: supporting him. They're calling him the new Robin Hood. He's

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Speaker 2: a martyr, he's a hero.

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Speaker 1: It is just.

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Speaker 2: It's disgusting to me because I'm going to tell you

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Speaker 2: that was somebody's father, that was somebody's husband, that was

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Speaker 2: somebody's son. And you know, anytime that people somehow say

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Speaker 2: that this murder is justified because of X, whatever the

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Speaker 2: X factor is for you, I caution you change it

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Speaker 2: if you want to say Robin hood stole from the

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Speaker 2: rich to give to the poor. Change the word rich

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Speaker 2: to any other group and tell me that doesn't sound

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Speaker 2: freaking pathetic. If you change rich to elderly, or African

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Speaker 2: American or lesbian, change the group's sounds heinous. The fact

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Speaker 2: they think he's sexy, the fact they think he did

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Speaker 2: something right, the fact they think he's some type of,

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Speaker 2: you know, now, heroic figure. Every bit of it bothers

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Speaker 2: me on every level. How can these people literally come

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Speaker 2: out and say, hey, look at this guy with his

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Speaker 2: six pack.

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Speaker 1: Look at this you.

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Speaker 2: Know, handsome man that is now our new hero is baffling.

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Speaker 3: Well, okay, I'm going to try to focus off edgits

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Speaker 3: that are glorifying Luigi Mangioni, and I am going to

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Speaker 3: talk about the only thing that I can really do,

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Speaker 3: and that's the evidence and the law surrounding this case.

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Speaker 4: Many people have asked me, well, there's a.

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Speaker 3: Lot of legal issues coming up, but they tend to

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Speaker 3: get really boring, so to try to briefly rush through them.

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Speaker 3: Many people have asked me online and on camera, why

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Speaker 3: is Mangioni charged with murder II and not murder one?

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Speaker 3: And first of all, reality check, it's New York, there

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Speaker 3: is no death penalty. I feel recently, but it was

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Speaker 3: several years ago. Covered a case where I think four

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Speaker 3: people were gunned down and left in a fridge at Wendy's.

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Speaker 4: I think, so the bark could rob the cash register.

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Speaker 3: Really you kill four people, Like, basically, you can kill

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Speaker 3: as many people as you want to in New York

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Speaker 3: and there is no death penalty.

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Speaker 4: You don't have to worry about that.

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Speaker 3: So, whether it's murder one or murder two, there is

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Speaker 3: no death penalty. But I had to look long and

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Speaker 3: hard at the New York law, Cheryl, because murder one,

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Speaker 3: the elements to prove it sound a lot like murder too.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's something called like voluntary manslaughter where let's

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Speaker 3: just say you're DUI and you right over somebody. You

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Speaker 3: didn't have the intent to kill. He just got drunk

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Speaker 3: and right over somebody. In my mind, is still a murder.

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Speaker 3: But that is not murder one. That's voluntary manslaughter and

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Speaker 3: a lot of jurisdictions. Then you have an involuntary manslaughter,

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Speaker 3: which a lot of people can get probation on.

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Speaker 4: But there's something called men's rea.

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Speaker 3: The requisite intent to do the act or the intent

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Speaker 3: to kill.

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Speaker 4: Guess what. Murder one and murder.

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Speaker 3: IWO in New York both have intent to kill, So

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Speaker 3: what is the difference. It seems to me that murder

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Speaker 3: one in New York is reserved for when you kill

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Speaker 3: a cop, when you kill law enforcement, when you kill

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Speaker 3: a judge, when you kill a witness. And I also

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Speaker 3: notice it's reserved when there's torture involved. So you know,

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Speaker 3: the penalty is a little bit stiffer, but you can

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Speaker 3: still get life.

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Speaker 4: You can still get life for murder two.

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Speaker 3: Murder one offers life without the possibility of parole. Murder

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Speaker 3: two is life. So that's the difference. It's the same

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Speaker 3: legal elements and intent is required. I also noticed that

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Speaker 3: it refers to depraved heart, an abandoned and malignant heart,

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Speaker 3: often called a black heart.

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Speaker 5: That is just example, driving through a festival on Thorde

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Speaker 5: Avenue at ninety miles an hour with the little vendors

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Speaker 5: and the children with balloons and face painting, and you

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Speaker 5: hurl yourself through at ninety mph.

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Speaker 4: That is an.

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Speaker 3: Abandoned and malignant heart with no regard for human life,

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Speaker 3: and a death occurs that can be prosecuted and get life.

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Speaker 4: Okay, it's right up.

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Speaker 3: There with malice murder, and then there's also felony murder,

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Speaker 3: which gets the same penalty of life, and that is

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Speaker 3: very simply put, a death occurs in the commission of

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Speaker 3: a felony What does that mean? Cheryl and I go

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Speaker 3: rob a bank again, and I say, Cheryl, don't get crazy. Instead,

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Speaker 3: Cheryl gets crazy, pulls a gun, and she us the

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Speaker 3: bank teller dead.

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Speaker 4: Guess what, I'm on the hook for felony murder.

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Speaker 3: Because a death occurred during the commission of a felony

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Speaker 3: bank robbery.

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Speaker 4: That's how that works. So all three of those.

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Speaker 3: He may later be charged in the alternative with felony

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Speaker 3: murder or other types of murder, but right now he's

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Speaker 3: charged with murder too. He's charged with gun charges for

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Speaker 3: having a ghost gun, which is I have serial number

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Speaker 3: on it, for having live AMMO and a gun. Let

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Speaker 3: me think what else? Oh? Yeah, a forged document which

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Speaker 3: I guess is his fake passport and fake driver's license.

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Speaker 3: Those are his charges currently, say Philly, Pennsylvania's actually around

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Speaker 3: Altoona also has charges on him, but they have agreed

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Speaker 3: that the murder charge in New York will take precedence,

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Speaker 3: and we're just waiting on extradition, and this ding dong

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Speaker 3: is apparently gonna fight extradition.

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Speaker 2: Of course, Nancy, thank you for explaining all that, because

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Speaker 2: I'm one of those people is sending as I hear

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Speaker 2: murder too, I'm like, what that's me?

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Speaker 1: So thank you for that.

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Speaker 4: Cheryl, I did the same thing. I'm like, murder too,

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Speaker 4: my rear, Rea, this needs to be murder one. Then

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Speaker 4: I'm like, okay, what is murder one? In New York?

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Speaker 4: I had to research and research and research to figure

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Speaker 4: out why not murder one?

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Speaker 2: Well, I just appreciate knowing because it makes you, you know,

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Speaker 2: feel better that they're doing the right way, the right thing.

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Speaker 2: But I'm going to ask your opinion. Let's say he

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Speaker 2: does get life and he is at some point eligible

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Speaker 2: to be released, if he is ever released from prison,

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Speaker 2: if he's convicted, if he's ever released, does that mean

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Speaker 2: that Pennsylvania would immediately get him and go to trial

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Speaker 2: and then he would do time there as well?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think how that'll probably work. It's why wait

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Speaker 4: fifty years?

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Speaker 3: I go ahead, and as soon as he's convicted in

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Speaker 3: New York, god willing, I would get him sent back

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Speaker 3: to Altona tried right then and have it to run consecutively.

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Speaker 4: To the New York sentence and then ship him.

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Speaker 3: Into a CI correct so on institute. You don't stay

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Speaker 3: at the county jail forever. Think about Andy of Mayberry

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Speaker 3: and Otis would just wander in and out. That's the

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Speaker 3: county jail, okay. Not in the big metropolitan area like

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Speaker 3: Fulton County where you and I practice, or of course

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Speaker 3: NBC Metropolitan Detention Center. But in a lot of smaller

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Speaker 3: jurisdictions it's you know, very loose, almost friendly, right be.

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Speaker 3: You don't get a lot of hardcore criminals there. So

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Speaker 3: he will be in a CI where he belongs. What's

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Speaker 3: he is convicted in New York, But I would take

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Speaker 3: him immediately to PA to get that conviction put to bed.

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Speaker 4: Done and done.

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Speaker 3: I would not wait, you know, until he finishes his

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Speaker 3: sentence in New York for Pete's sake, HG W l N.

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Speaker 3: I'd want that conviction a lot in now while the

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Speaker 3: witnesses are still around.

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Speaker 1: Brilliant, absolutely, you know.

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Speaker 3: I want to clarify. We did a program about human trafficking,

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Speaker 3: and the routes used by human traffickers in certain parts

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Speaker 3: of the world.

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Speaker 6: Are the very same routes at age old routes of poachers,

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Speaker 6: and we're trying to make the connection how to stop

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Speaker 6: human trafficking by finding these poaching routes.

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Speaker 3: I know it sounds esoteric, but if you're being human trafficked,

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Speaker 3: it's not. It's real, that's right. You know what I'm

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Speaker 3: so upset about Mangioni. I'm not have to crack open

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Speaker 3: a can here. Hold on, okay, hold on, It takes

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Speaker 3: me a second. I guess you want to know what

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Speaker 3: I'm drinking. I do the hard stuff, the eight low sodium.

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Speaker 3: What are we gonna do about Mangioni, because of course

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Speaker 3: we've got the fingerprints matching to MANGIONI. We're gonna have

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Speaker 3: DNA because idiots drank out of a water bottle and

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Speaker 3: threw it down.

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Speaker 4: I'm very curious who he.

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Speaker 3: Was talking to, excuse me to who he was talking

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Speaker 3: on his way to.

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Speaker 2: The murder, because again, to me, there are limited people.

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Speaker 2: You can call it six thirty in the morning.

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Speaker 4: Wait, we talk all the time at six thirty in

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Speaker 4: the morning, usually by texts.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you and I, but my group is you and

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Speaker 2: my sister. She loved that gets up at five. I

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Speaker 2: can't call anybody else at six thirty.

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Speaker 4: In the morning.

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Speaker 7: You know, now I'm seeing the headlines about where he's

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Speaker 7: being housed. Of course it's at Huntingdon, and you know

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Speaker 7: everyone is talking about it's his facility.

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Speaker 1: Nice enough, I mean, what, let's get to it, Nancy.

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Speaker 2: This guy took great time to build a gun that

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Speaker 2: could not be traced. He took time to travel to

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Speaker 2: New York, spent ten days. He got monopoly money, he

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Speaker 2: got fake eye, he got.

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Speaker 1: A fake passport.

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Speaker 2: He made sure that he had things to cover his face,

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Speaker 2: different jackets. He took time to write a manifesto. It

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Speaker 2: is again baffling to me that anybody is going to

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Speaker 2: champion that any group, whether it's CEO's the homeless, people

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Speaker 2: with mental illness, that any group deserves to be murdered,

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Speaker 2: because I'm going to say again, you change the word

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Speaker 2: CEO with any other group and it sounds disgusting.

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Speaker 1: And I have no gray area when it comes to murder. None.

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Speaker 3: Many people often wonder why the sentence is lesser for

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Speaker 3: voluntary manslaughter, for instance, as opposed to murder one. It's

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Speaker 3: such as a duy man a dy manslaughter.

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Speaker 4: Why do you get twenty on that? In life for

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Speaker 4: murder one.

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Speaker 3: Because the victim is dead. In both cases, the families

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Speaker 3: are distraught. We'll tell you why, because there is a

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Speaker 3: degree of coldness, of calculatedness in murder.

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Speaker 4: And you were just talking about how he wrote the.

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Speaker 3: Manifesto, how he stalked the health boss, how he traveled

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Speaker 3: this circuitous route from Atlanta by bus under a faint name,

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Speaker 3: just all of the measures he took not to get detected.

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Speaker 3: Along each one of those steps, he could have said,

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Speaker 3: what am I thinking. I'm taking a human life. Somebody's

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Speaker 3: going to bleed out on the sidewalk. They are going

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Speaker 3: to be children left without a father. You know, much

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Speaker 3: has been made about the wife living in a separate

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Speaker 3: home from Thompson, that they had been quote estranged but

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Speaker 3: getting along to raised children. You know what, how do

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Speaker 3: I know she didn't hope for a reconciliation one day?

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Speaker 3: How do I know that he didn't work all the

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Speaker 3: time and it hurt their marriage and she separated.

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Speaker 4: You never know what's going on. People might say, oh,

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Speaker 4: she didn't care they were split. That is not true.

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Speaker 4: We don't know that.

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Speaker 3: We don't know what she's going through. Try to explain

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Speaker 3: to her children that some unknown azeilant attack their father

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Speaker 3: and shot him down like a dog on the sidewalk

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Speaker 3: and let him bleed out in the dark. And each

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Speaker 3: step of the way he had the opportunity not to

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Speaker 3: do this thing.

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Speaker 4: Murderers. I've looked at so many of them, Cheryl. Some

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Speaker 4: of them are.

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Speaker 3: Just idiots, and some of them are extremely intelligent, like BENCHIONI.

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Speaker 1: He's smart. He ain't got no street smarts.

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Speaker 2: And here's the deal. He is a walking contradiction. He

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Speaker 2: is such a piece of crap that he's going to

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Speaker 2: sit there and pretend that he's gonna take somebody out

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Speaker 2: because of their greed, but he comes from money. He

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Speaker 2: is going to say, I'm attacked genius, but I'm going

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Speaker 2: to use a spiral Nope book from my manifesto. He's

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Speaker 2: going to say, I've got back pain and can't have

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Speaker 2: sex with anybody, but I can run, I can ride

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Speaker 2: a bike, and I can ride a bus for five

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Speaker 2: and a half hours. He's gonna, you know, get this

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Speaker 2: attorney that tells him don't say nothing, and then he's

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Speaker 2: going to make all these outbursts. Day one, when you

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Speaker 2: and I talked, this case made me think of DC

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Speaker 2: Sniper and Eric Robert Rudolph for two reasons.

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Speaker 1: Both of those things have come to be.

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Speaker 2: It makes perfect sense to me that he thinks he's

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Speaker 2: avenging himself or his mama, just like Eric Rudolph thought

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Speaker 2: he was doing. Eric was going to build these bombs

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Speaker 2: they saved. This kid said he was going to blow

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Speaker 2: some people as well, but chose to do the firearm instead. Again,

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Speaker 2: a lot of time was taken, and to your point,

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Speaker 2: a year ago, six months ago, three months ago, he

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Speaker 2: could have stopped. Somebody might could have gotten to him

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Speaker 2: and say, you know, what.

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Speaker 4: Are you doing.

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Speaker 1: There is no doubt in my I'm mine.

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Speaker 2: His family recognized him, college people recognized him, high school people.

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Speaker 2: Possibly it took a stranger in a McDonald's to turn

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Speaker 2: him in. So again, these people that are champion for

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Speaker 2: him great didn't work.

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Speaker 1: It's never going to work.

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Speaker 2: Good over evil every time, every time one person did this,

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Speaker 2: But how many New York City police officers responded, how

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Speaker 2: many folks in Pennsylvania responded, how many citizens responded by

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Speaker 2: sharing his picture?

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Speaker 1: Love wins every time.

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Speaker 3: I understand that the FBI and others are trying to

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Speaker 3: determine when the family realized that Luigi min Gianni, their

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Speaker 3: son brother cousin was in fact the health boss assassin.

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Speaker 3: The reality is, unless they actively did something to impede

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Speaker 3: the investigation, they are not under any duty to come

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Speaker 3: forward and identify me and Giani. So they I hate

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Speaker 3: for them to spend time trying to figure that out

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Speaker 3: because there's not going to be a prosecution.

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Speaker 4: On that at all.

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Speaker 1: Ever, what do you think after Well, let me just

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Speaker 1: go back.

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Speaker 2: I think even before I think he went ghost, I

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Speaker 2: think he stopped communicating with people. I think the family

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Speaker 2: knew there was a problem. I think he's been very

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Speaker 2: vocal about what he thought was wrong with the insurance industry.

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Speaker 2: He hasn't hidden it. His manifesto with and the only

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Speaker 2: thing he's ever written down not the only thing he's

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00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,200
Speaker 2: ever said publicly with his outburst. Now, this is not

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00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,920
Speaker 2: anything new. Friends and family I believe had to have

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Speaker 2: known that he was in this direction with his anger

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Speaker 2: misplaced or not. Then I think you're talking around Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 1: He's just ia.

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Speaker 2: So when his pictures out there, whether he made contact

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Speaker 2: with them, I can't believe they didn't.

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Speaker 1: Try to get in touch with him.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe Mama wasn't trying to figure out where

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Speaker 2: is he?

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Speaker 4: Is he?

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Speaker 1: Okay, there ain't no question she knew who it was.

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Speaker 4: I'm just thinking about his family, and I'm not going

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Speaker 4: to think about them very long because I'm more concerned

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Speaker 4: with the victim's family.

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Speaker 3: But imagine, Cheryl, well as you do with your two,

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Speaker 3: you work your whole life to help them to get

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Speaker 3: them through school and get them into the best college

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Speaker 3: they can get into, to get them through Oh lord,

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00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,320
Speaker 3: I remember just getting the twins through Bible Challenge, for

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Speaker 3: Peat's sake. That took three years. They had to learn

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, there was a song and we would

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Speaker 3: sing it in march around the house, Jenna's Exodus Loviticus.

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Speaker 4: Blah blah blah blah blah blah. That's how we learned.

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Speaker 3: Oh and then anyway, and I would go over and

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Speaker 3: over and over the twenty third song with Lucy.

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Speaker 4: Oh my stars. Three years they finally graduated Bible Challenge.

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Speaker 3: Forget that what getting them into you know, high school

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00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,600
Speaker 3: and the college search and the or the daynist and

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Speaker 3: the there's a lot, and you do it gladly, happily, willingly.

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Speaker 3: Is for all your time, all your money, or at

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Speaker 3: least in our case, all our money, not in Mengioni's.

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Speaker 4: Case, all your love, and you know dreams I once had.

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Speaker 4: Of course, my dreams were just putting bad guys in jail.

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Speaker 3: I didn't have a dream past that, right, But all

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Speaker 3: your dreams are now for them.

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Speaker 4: What is Lucy going to do? What is John David

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Speaker 4: going to do? What is going to make them happy

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Speaker 4: and fulfilled? Who are they going to marry if they marry.

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Speaker 3: And what can I do to push them forward or

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00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,520
Speaker 3: help them just a quarter of an inch? And then

329
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:14,800
Speaker 3: you see that picture and you realize your son Luigi

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Speaker 3: Mangioni is the health boss assassin.

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Speaker 4: I mean, oh bomb bomb.

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Speaker 2: You know, Nancy, I tell people a lot of times,

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Speaker 2: and you know this because you and I used to

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Speaker 2: talk about it. When you have a murder trial, the

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00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,600
Speaker 2: victim's family, absolutely you can point them out, no question

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00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:40,119
Speaker 2: about it, the grief, the heartache. But you can also

337
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 2: do that with a defendant's family. They are broken as well,

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00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,160
Speaker 2: because not only are they going to lose a child

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Speaker 2: because of the freedom being taken, but this child of

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00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,440
Speaker 2: theirs that you say correctly they've poured all their love into,

341
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Speaker 2: has taken the life of an innocent person, and in

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Speaker 2: a way.

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00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,880
Speaker 3: Your life is for well and not what your life

344
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:11,159
Speaker 3: is forever altered because everything you are looking forward to, Like,

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00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,159
Speaker 3: you know what, I'm looking forward to The Twins school

346
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 3: made it to the state championships, and I'm looking forward

347
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,119
Speaker 3: to going to that game and watching Lucy be a

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00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,960
Speaker 3: football manager and looking up in the stands and seeing

349
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Speaker 3: John David in some crazy fanhat. I'm looking forward to that,

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Speaker 3: you know. And I'm looking forward to Christmas and every

351
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,439
Speaker 3: minute I have with them, And I just don't know

352
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 3: how empty life would be if I didn't have that

353
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,439
Speaker 3: to look forward to. And that is the position his

354
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 3: parents are in.

355
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Speaker 1: The CEO's wife.

356
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Speaker 2: Everybody in the world is coming to her, friends, family, neighbors, work, associates.

357
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 2: Everybody's given her whatever support they can. His family people

358
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 2: are distancing themselves. That's the reality too. What he has

359
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 2: done to his family is unforgivable. So not only has

360
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:08,120
Speaker 2: he broken their heart by murdering somebody senselessly, they are

361
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,679
Speaker 2: losing friends, they are losing family members, they are losing

362
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 2: neighbors as support. It's horrible murder. Nobody wins. It's not

363
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 2: a solution again for these people that think he's done

364
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,199
Speaker 2: something so great that CEO was replaced before they got

365
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 2: him off the sidewalk. You've done nothing, You've accomplished nothing.

366
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 2: It's just senseless and just the devil at work. That's

367
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Speaker 2: all there is to it.

368
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:37,919
Speaker 4: You know what he could have done.

369
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,719
Speaker 3: He could with all his brands and money, he could

370
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 3: have started a foundation for insurance victims. He could have

371
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,720
Speaker 3: lobbied Congress. He could have raised awareness. I mean, his

372
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 3: family owns part of a radio station.

373
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 4: He could have taken.

374
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 3: Calls every day at noon about insurance scams, assurance, you know, pitfalls.

375
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 4: There's so many things he could have done.

376
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 2: You know the starfish story about the man that's picking

377
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 2: them up and throwing it back in the ocean, and

378
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 2: the person says, what are you doing? And he's like, well,

379
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,479
Speaker 2: I'm saving his starfish. I'm throwing it back in the ocean.

380
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 2: And they you can't save all of them, but he says,

381
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 2: but I can save this one. What me and Jenny

382
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 2: he could have done with all of his wealth. He

383
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,680
Speaker 2: could have picked one person a year to pay their

384
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 2: medical bills. You can't save them all, but he could

385
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 2: have saved one.

386
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:31,920
Speaker 4: You know, it's.

387
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,919
Speaker 3: Interesting after my fiance Keith was murdered. I thought, Okay,

388
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 3: when this guy gets out of jail, do I have

389
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 3: to go kill him?

390
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 4: Is that my duty? Do I need to go kill him?

391
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 4: How come I do it and not get caught?

392
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 8: Is that what I need to do? I, instead of

393
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 8: focusing on that, assumed he would be in jail for life,

394
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 8: and flung myself into law school to help other crime victims.

395
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 4: Then as time passed. Of course, I've got the twins.

396
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 3: I would never ever jeopardize one minute of being with them.

397
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 3: That's why I start work in the morning at five Cheryl,

398
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 3: so I can be with them.

399
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 4: If they can be with me when they get off

400
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 4: of school.

401
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 3: You know, there's other ways, other ways to make the

402
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 3: world a better place. There are ways than to hunt

403
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 3: someone down and shoot them dead. I'm just sick about

404
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 3: the whole thing, and I don't want to dwell Amanngiani's family,

405
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 3: but I can only imagine what the mother and father

406
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 3: are going through. Hey, can I talk to you about

407
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 3: that ghost gun? Did you notice it looks like a glock?

408
00:23:55,040 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 3: It looks like a glock nineteen nine semi. There's no

409
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 3: block logo on it right, and the grip is different.

410
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 3: I've been looking into it researching it, and it's a

411
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 3: free to download three D rented design and it's known

412
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 3: as the f m as A Mother D Delta A

413
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 3: Alpha f Frank fmd A nineteen point two Chairman one remix.

414
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 3: Now the guy who designed it, I guess it's a

415
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,159
Speaker 3: guy Chairman One does not want to be linked to

416
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 3: this shooting at all. But he had stated he was

417
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 3: shocked when he saw photos of the pistol, and he

418
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 3: acknowledged that it was his design. Then he got so

419
00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:01,439
Speaker 3: worried he deleted the post. Now Biden, I am not

420
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 3: pro Biden or anti Biden. I don't care to me,

421
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 3: They're all the same. In the White House, Biden had

422
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 3: proposed regulating these components that are used in homemade guns.

423
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 3: Did you know there are over twenty five thousand privately

424
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 3: made firearms that were discovered in one seizure in twenty

425
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 3: twenty two, twenty.

426
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 4: Five album, all untraceable?

427
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: Sheryl Well, I know.

428
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: I mean here at the police department, I have a

429
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 2: couple of ghost guns that we've taken into evidence.

430
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 1: But they are rare for us. They are super rare,

431
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: which tells me a couple of things. I know they exist.

432
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 2: I know they're out there, so they're usually in the

433
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 2: hands of somebody that's not the fifteen year old gang member,

434
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 2: not the you know, crackhead burglar. This is somebody that

435
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 2: has gone to great express, great.

436
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: Time again to get this gun. A lot of the

437
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: guns that we are going to.

438
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: Seize from different burglaries, robberies, things like that, are going

439
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 2: to be somebody that stole the weapon in the first place,

440
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 2: out of somebody's car or home, and they either drop

441
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: it because it's no good to them anymore, or.

442
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 1: You know, we get it when they are arrested.

443
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 2: But the ghost guns, I would venture to bet are

444
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 2: less than one percent of what I've got in there.

445
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 3: So let me talk to you about how long it

446
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 3: would take him to make a ghost gun. I've got

447
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 3: twenty to forty hours to make one ghost gun, which

448
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 3: adds to the.

449
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: Pre planning and great expense.

450
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 2: Because Nancy Hutton Caroline have a three D printer that

451
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 2: they got years ago, and they can make little toys

452
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 2: and things like that.

453
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of material.

454
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 2: I mean, this isn't something you just can buy one

455
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 2: little box of something and make it. There's a lot

456
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: of parts, there's a lot of materials and a ton

457
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: of time for that machine to work.

458
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 4: So how does that factor into evidence?

459
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 2: They're going to be able to take that gun because

460
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 2: one it was own him, and that is so critical.

461
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 2: They didn't find it in the woods, they didn't find

462
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: it in the water, and you and I talked. We

463
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 2: knew he was going to have that gun own him

464
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 2: because it meant so much to him.

465
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 1: No way he was going to throw that away.

466
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 4: It was like his little baby.

467
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 2: It's like his baby, and the fact that it was

468
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: owning is paramount.

469
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: The ammunition is going to be the same.

470
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: The shell cases that the scene are going to be

471
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: the same as the ones that are sit inside the gun.

472
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 2: They're going to have the handwriting on there with the

473
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 2: permanent marker, so those are going to have fingerprints and

474
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 2: DNA on them as well. The gun's going to have

475
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 2: DNA all over it, so that gun is tied to him.

476
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: Period. Don't don't hit a serial number at all. I mean, Cheryl,

477
00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: what a whack a doodle?

478
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 4: This guy loving off his parents and a high rise.

479
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 3: In Honolulu with a group that does nothing but surf

480
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 3: and they're living in this luxury high rise.

481
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 4: I mean, you know how much that irritates me.

482
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 3: But ah, and all the hours he's spent researching this

483
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 3: and making the three D printed gun, and just it had.

484
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 4: To be hundreds and hundreds of hours that he's spent.

485
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: That's right.

486
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 2: And again he's got this whole thing in his head

487
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 2: about what's right, what's wrong, who's good, who's bad, And

488
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 2: he's the only one committing crimes.

489
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: It's just unreal.

490
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 2: And you know, again, like DC Sniper wanted to leave

491
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 2: the death Card, he wanted to leave Monopoly. It's their

492
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: tisted view of the world. And you know, Nancy, you

493
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 2: and I talked too about him, you know, being a

494
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 2: big fan of the Unibalmer.

495
00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: If you look at.

496
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: Who these criminals were research like Coburger, researching Bundy and

497
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 2: researching BTK, it'll tell you about them.

498
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: Him wanting to research the inn Obomber will tell you

499
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: about him.

500
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 2: And you know, my favorite quote from the Enbalmber is

501
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: when he said, I believe in nothing. And I think

502
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 2: this is true of this young man. He doesn't know

503
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: what he believes in because.

504
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: His actions make no sense. What he put together makes

505
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: no sense.

506
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 2: He's a walking contradiction that is way out of bounds

507
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: with his thinking.

508
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 3: I'm curious why he didn't just have another back surgery

509
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 3: to get out of the pain he allegedly was in.

510
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 2: He could have made all kind of decisions that were different.

511
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 2: It's a real shame.

512
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 3: I noticed that on his an ex account that's been

513
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 3: linked to him, he talks about the negative impact of

514
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 3: smart finds. He talks about healthy eating, exercise. He quotes

515
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 3: an Indian philosopher Beach de Murty about the dangers of

516
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 3: being quote well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. Yeah, okay,

517
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 3: Well of crap.

518
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: Where was he caught.

519
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 4: McDonald?

520
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, hugging a what was it, a hash brown?

521
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: Give me a freaking break. You can go get a

522
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:23,719
Speaker 2: power bar if you want to.

523
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: But you ain't.

524
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,959
Speaker 2: Fooling anybody, because again, when you were caught, mister contradiction,

525
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: you're enjoying, you know, a big old biscuit and hash

526
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 2: browns and whatever.

527
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: You don't know what you believe in. You don't know

528
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: what you're about.

529
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 3: You do know, we're in the weeds right now, okay,

530
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 3: because we're talking about his hash brown and his quote

531
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 3: big old biscuit as you put it, when we could

532
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 3: be analyzing the facts and the evidence so on that note,

533
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 3: I will give you adieu and I will finish my va.

534
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 4: Did you know today's my mother's ninety third birthday?

535
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: Nancy, tell her happy birthday.

536
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 3: Amazing, I will, I will well, y'all go celebrate that, Lona.

537
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 4: I think it's not that amazing when you're up with

538
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 4: her three or four times a night just to check

539
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 4: on her.

540
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 3: This morning, I went in there with hot coffee. I

541
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 3: have to make it just right. She b I t

542
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 3: c h ed to hell him back the other day

543
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 3: because David took it upon himself to bring her a

544
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 3: cup of coffee.

545
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 4: And it was too strong.

546
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 3: And like David, you have to give her one third

547
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 3: of a teaspoon on decaf black. If it's eating more

548
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 3: than that, she will totally spit it out. Okay, I

549
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 3: wonder what it's going to hit him. He did not

550
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 3: sign up for this. But anyway, I took her coffee

551
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 3: and I made her homemade biscuits with melted butter okay,

552
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 3: and apple jelly on the side.

553
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 4: Okay, she has to have it in a little dish

554
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 4: on the side.

555
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 3: And the first thing she said was before I could

556
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 3: even say how any birthday was.

557
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 4: I can't get Andrea on the TV.

558
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: You know who that is, right, Yes, Yeah, that's fantastic Andrea.

559
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 3: But Kelly, I'm pretty sure See thinks they're in a

560
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 3: relationship because very often, very often, he'll have a stunning woman.

561
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 3: There are always somebody different come in and sing duets

562
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 3: with him, and she hates the woman, whoever they are.

563
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 3: He always hates them, just like hate hate, hate, Like

564
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 3: why is she singing with Andrea?

565
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 4: He is ruining it for me, my mother. That's a

566
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 4: crazy TV criss on Andrea, Kelly.

567
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: I love her. Listen, y'all go celebrate big. She is

568
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: an absolute gift.

569
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 4: Do you dare? Remember her and my father coming to

570
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 4: a lot of my trials.

571
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: Of course I sat next to her. Remember when you

572
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 2: did the Mason Jar. She was so proud of you

573
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: because you've timed that so beautifully. Of course I remember.

574
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 2: I remember having all the dinners at Mary Max. Of course,

575
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: of course I remember going to her house. She gave

576
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 2: Zoe a he had a lesson right then and there.

577
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 4: Yes, and another thing, you know, she worked so hard

578
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 4: to help us. You know, she had a full time job.

579
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 3: She wouldn't get home, you know, six between six and

580
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 3: seven at night, and I would hear her to the

581
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 3: car horn coming up the driveway, and that was the.

582
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 4: Highlight of my day.

583
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 3: And I'd run out to help her as she got

584
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 3: out the car, and she would have a stack of

585
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 3: papers that would go they'd be in her arms and

586
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 3: they go up to cover her face. And on top

587
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 3: of that would be a plug and calculator with the

588
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 3: cord dangling down, and I'd run help her carry all

589
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 3: of her stuff in. And I can remember, just like

590
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 3: it happened yesterday, that she would stand in the kitchen

591
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 3: making dinner, and she would want me to stand at

592
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:08,760
Speaker 3: the kitchen table where we would eat supper and state,

593
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 3: you know, give deliver my four h demonstration. And I

594
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 3: could not look down at cards. I had to make

595
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 3: eye contact and know like a five minute presentation by heart,

596
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,720
Speaker 3: okay about whatever it was that I was talking about forestry.

597
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 4: Or canning food, or home decorating or.

598
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: I don't know whatever, landscaping.

599
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 4: But she did it all, Cheryl, she did it all.

600
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 4: So I do not mind one bit. Okay, taking her

601
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 4: her one.

602
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 3: Third of the teaspoon decaf black and hot, okay.

603
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: Right on, give her my love please, I will buy

604
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: my love. Bye, Honey.

605
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 3: It is the sun of the road,