1
00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,360
Speaker 1: Before becoming a musician, I worked as a face painter,

2
00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,640
Speaker 1: sometimes dressed as a butterfly, sometimes wearing shiny red boots

3
00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,160
Speaker 1: and pigtails, decked out in holographic robbins. I did it

4
00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,520
Speaker 1: for roughly ten years. It was pretty good at it.

5
00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,680
Speaker 1: I paid well as a freelance gig, mostly company parties,

6
00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,800
Speaker 1: and being a face painter is like serving as an

7
00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,400
Speaker 1: embedded spy in the republic of childhood. Kids speak freely

8
00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,280
Speaker 1: around you, don't even register you're an adult. They're sweet,

9
00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 1: they're weird, they're funny, they're mean, and even though they're

10
00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,960
Speaker 1: pint sized, they're already real sensitive to social status and hierarchy.

11
00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:44,479
Speaker 1: I remember this one kid, let's call him Charlemagne, pulling

12
00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,680
Speaker 1: ranked on another boy by explaining that his dad worked

13
00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,680
Speaker 1: in a corner office. And I kept painting. But it

14
00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:52,960
Speaker 1: occurred to me that this kid would have no idea

15
00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,279
Speaker 1: why a corner office was even desirable. He hadn't spent

16
00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,960
Speaker 1: any time in his sunless cubicle, yet he just heard

17
00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,280
Speaker 1: the boast at home and trotted it out. Here is

18
00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,280
Speaker 1: evidence that Charlemagne Sr. Was higher up on the corporate

19
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,039
Speaker 1: ladder than this other kid, who was also waiting in

20
00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,119
Speaker 1: line for me to paint a glitter batman on his cheek.

21
00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,480
Speaker 1: I'm Dessa. This is deeply human, and we're talking about

22
00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:23,920
Speaker 1: social status, prestige, influence and dominance, and our personal lives

23
00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,280
Speaker 1: and our work lives and our societies at large. Why

24
00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:31,720
Speaker 1: do we form social hierarchies. We're born into the many

25
00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,120
Speaker 1: hierarchy of our homes. We're parents of the de facto bosses.

26
00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,840
Speaker 1: And as a little kid myself, I was very eager

27
00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,720
Speaker 1: to level the family organizational chart, constantly campaigning my mom

28
00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,200
Speaker 1: for an equal vote in domestic policy decisions. Let's all

29
00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,160
Speaker 1: just are your case and trust the best plans will

30
00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,880
Speaker 1: rise to the top. And I cannot tell you how

31
00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,720
Speaker 1: much I hated her reply, I'm your mother, not your friend.

32
00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,480
Speaker 1: I hate that now. I hate saying that now. But

33
00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,880
Speaker 1: when I was five and a half years old, Maxie

34
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:10,160
Speaker 1: was born, promoting me to middle management halfway around the world.

35
00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,280
Speaker 1: A few years later, a little girl named Shenyang was

36
00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,000
Speaker 1: born into a very different family, and when she was

37
00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,320
Speaker 1: about five, she spent a night wrapped in her grandfather's

38
00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:26,040
Speaker 1: coat hiding from a government raid. They came at night,

39
00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,480
Speaker 1: and I was really scared because my Grandpa took me

40
00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,200
Speaker 1: to the top of the roof and we were hiding there,

41
00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:36,120
Speaker 1: and that was one of the horrible scenes in my childhood.

42
00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,080
Speaker 1: They flipped to my grandparents bed. They flipped it because

43
00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,239
Speaker 1: they thought I were hiding underneath the bed. Of course

44
00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,360
Speaker 1: they don't know my dame. They're just saying, where's the kid?

45
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,600
Speaker 1: Where's the kid? When you hear a kid, of course

46
00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,680
Speaker 1: you are scared. Okay, let's get the context that led

47
00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:55,520
Speaker 1: to that scene on the roof. Can I ask you

48
00:02:55,560 --> 00:03:00,200
Speaker 1: where year you were born? January the one I was

49
00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,359
Speaker 1: born in Shandong, Jining, a small city, And if somebody

50
00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,359
Speaker 1: was picturing China on a map, it's in B two

51
00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,960
Speaker 1: in Beijing and Shanghai. And did you have siblings when

52
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:17,760
Speaker 1: you grew up? Uh? That's usually an innocent, getting to

53
00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,600
Speaker 1: know you kind of question, But for Shen Young, it's

54
00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,800
Speaker 1: complicated because legally she was not allowed to have siblings.

55
00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,800
Speaker 1: By the mid eighties, China had a strict one child policy.

56
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,760
Speaker 1: Each couple was permitted only one kid and would face

57
00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,800
Speaker 1: serious fines for any additional births. But Chanyang was the

58
00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,320
Speaker 1: second of four girls. My grandma used to say, Guanti

59
00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,880
Speaker 1: and Guandi guan. You control the heaven, you control the earth.

60
00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,920
Speaker 1: You cannot control people's belly. But the government did try

61
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,520
Speaker 1: to control pregnancies. It launched huge propaganda campaigns to dissuade

62
00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,160
Speaker 1: couples from having what we're called excess birth children. And

63
00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:00,600
Speaker 1: the slogans were really really intense. One x as birth

64
00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,200
Speaker 1: and the whole village gets their tubs tied. They're not

65
00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:09,440
Speaker 1: just threatening, they're really taking people to get their tubes tied. Literally. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

66
00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,920
Speaker 1: some villages really did that. Girls were more likely to

67
00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,240
Speaker 1: be aborted, abandoned, or given away during those years. Boys

68
00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,640
Speaker 1: who could carry on the family line recorded higher status.

69
00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,480
Speaker 1: Boys have to have all the privileges. They are like

70
00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:28,000
Speaker 1: the spoilt light of the family. At dinner table, boys

71
00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,640
Speaker 1: always get to eat chicken legs, so you know, the

72
00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,160
Speaker 1: meat the boy gets to eat first. There are many

73
00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,599
Speaker 1: families in the countryside that the sisters sacrifice themselves not

74
00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,320
Speaker 1: to go to school, but they go to work so

75
00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,720
Speaker 1: they can pay the tuition for the brother. To enforce

76
00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,520
Speaker 1: the one child rule, government officials raided homes if they

77
00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,520
Speaker 1: found an excess birth child. They could demolish the house,

78
00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,200
Speaker 1: take the family's furniture, food, or even the baby itself.

79
00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,440
Speaker 1: Chan Yang's parents, who kept trying for a boy after

80
00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,600
Speaker 1: she was born, sent her to live in a village

81
00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,880
Speaker 1: with her grandparents to hide. They didn't file any paperwork

82
00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,839
Speaker 1: to register her birth, but as we've heard, the authorities

83
00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,760
Speaker 1: found her grandparents house and they came looking for her.

84
00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,599
Speaker 1: To evade them, n Young was then sent to an aunt,

85
00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,719
Speaker 1: far away from any family that she knew. She was

86
00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,920
Speaker 1: scrappy and strong willed, but she was essentially a five

87
00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,479
Speaker 1: year old fugitive in hiding and undocumented in her own country.

88
00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:34,480
Speaker 1: People used to call me latle black child. Yes, we

89
00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,039
Speaker 1: also have black children. It means we illegal children, and

90
00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,720
Speaker 1: they mobbed me for all. She's the little black girl

91
00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,839
Speaker 1: from Shandong Province. The term black children wasn't associated with

92
00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,760
Speaker 1: skin color. It was a comment about Shen Yan's position

93
00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,280
Speaker 1: in the social hierarchy. She wasn't only perceived as inferior

94
00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,280
Speaker 1: like there wasn't even a proper wrong for her. She

95
00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,320
Speaker 1: wasn't supposed to exist at all. We were like the

96
00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,840
Speaker 1: invisible generation, the ghost child. But like many other excess

97
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,320
Speaker 1: birth children, Shen Young found a way to hack back

98
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,120
Speaker 1: onto the grid and reinserting herself into the social order

99
00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:15,400
Speaker 1: would involve assuming a new identity. Shen young story will

100
00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,479
Speaker 1: provide a dramatic example of how status and leverage and

101
00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,479
Speaker 1: authority can affect a human life. But all of us

102
00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,799
Speaker 1: are sensitive even to the minor differences in power dynamics

103
00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:30,120
Speaker 1: that surround us within the first ten, fifteen, twenty seconds,

104
00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,920
Speaker 1: Like people already know what is the status situation in

105
00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:38,240
Speaker 1: this room. That's Dr Joey Cheng, sociologist at RK University

106
00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,599
Speaker 1: in Toronto, Canada. When we first enter a room, were

107
00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,159
Speaker 1: likely to rely on demographic shorthand guessing who's in control

108
00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,880
Speaker 1: based on age and race and gender. Then you start

109
00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:52,000
Speaker 1: paying attention right as people speak, to their body language,

110
00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,200
Speaker 1: to their non verbal cues. So you know, is this

111
00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,839
Speaker 1: person sitting up right? Are they expanded? Do they look

112
00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,040
Speaker 1: like they're taking up a lot of space? Being extroverted

113
00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,880
Speaker 1: is big, especially in North American culture. So there's even

114
00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,160
Speaker 1: this thing called the Babbler effect where the person who

115
00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,480
Speaker 1: speaks the most is the one who's likely to be

116
00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,040
Speaker 1: a leader in a room. Joey worked on a study

117
00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,920
Speaker 1: that also found we tend to spend more time looking

118
00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,760
Speaker 1: at the high status individuals in a group, but we

119
00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:24,920
Speaker 1: may have read our gaze if they look directly back

120
00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,960
Speaker 1: at us in a subtle sign of submission. We take

121
00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,040
Speaker 1: note of how others speak as well. Are they lowering

122
00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,440
Speaker 1: the pitch of their voice as they speak? Then studies

123
00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,960
Speaker 1: we find that when you measure the pitch of people's

124
00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,360
Speaker 1: voice when they first speak compared to how it changes

125
00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:47,040
Speaker 1: over time, the people who lower their voice they actually

126
00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,760
Speaker 1: get seen as more dominant and they end up having

127
00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,960
Speaker 1: more influence over a group. So when you think about,

128
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,880
Speaker 1: you know, when we're in trouble, right, how do people

129
00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,800
Speaker 1: call our names? This stuff am to more than just

130
00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:06,000
Speaker 1: academic trivia. Judicial researchers have investigated why some jurors seem

131
00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,640
Speaker 1: to hold outsized influence on jury deliberations. Former British Prime

132
00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,480
Speaker 1: Minister Margaret Thatcher hired a speech coach to help her

133
00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,960
Speaker 1: lower her pitch to create a more authoritative presence, and

134
00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,640
Speaker 1: Joey herself notes that when hierarchical cues are built into

135
00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,760
Speaker 1: the language, they might even affect our intimate relationships. So

136
00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,280
Speaker 1: I think of the informal too in Spanish versus the formal.

137
00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:33,160
Speaker 1: THID languages like Thai and Japanese have many complicated levels

138
00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:39,040
Speaker 1: of deference and respect. Apparently even for Japanese speakers, like

139
00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,439
Speaker 1: kids growing up in Japan, that is a tricky thing

140
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:44,440
Speaker 1: they have to learn to as they grow up. Is

141
00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,160
Speaker 1: like okay for this person, is this a context where

142
00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:52,400
Speaker 1: I use that hierarchical language or is this not? And

143
00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,719
Speaker 1: also it gets complicated after people get married. They kind

144
00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:57,560
Speaker 1: of the figure out like all right, do I start

145
00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,680
Speaker 1: using cago, which that hiwardic language with my in laws

146
00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,439
Speaker 1: or do I drop it? Like it's tricky. You contributed

147
00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,720
Speaker 1: a chapter to this book called Towards a Unified Science

148
00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:13,600
Speaker 1: of Hierarchy, and essentially you wrote that having an organizational

149
00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:19,520
Speaker 1: structure in a hierarchical form was a tool to resolve conflict.

150
00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,200
Speaker 1: Whereas I think right now in the modern world, we

151
00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,080
Speaker 1: imagine like hierarchies as the source of a lot of conflict.

152
00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:31,000
Speaker 1: Can you explain when you show submission that is a

153
00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:36,160
Speaker 1: way to prevent conflict in the absence of that hierarchy

154
00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,520
Speaker 1: while figuring out somebody's going to get hurt. So think

155
00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:45,719
Speaker 1: about like in a workplace meetings. Right when your assistant,

156
00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,559
Speaker 1: for instance, knows they're your assistant, you're not going to

157
00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,000
Speaker 1: be butting heads with them. It's like if you had

158
00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:56,800
Speaker 1: to remind them that they're your assistant because they've somehow forgotten,

159
00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:01,840
Speaker 1: then that's where you might have issues. Why and how

160
00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,520
Speaker 1: does some people land higher than others in the social hierarchy.

161
00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,960
Speaker 1: Scholars like Joey identify two classic strategies to achieve or

162
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:15,200
Speaker 1: maintain a high status position. The first is dominance. Dominance

163
00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:20,120
Speaker 1: refers to the use of threat and intimidation to gain

164
00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,520
Speaker 1: influence over others, typically by instilling fear. Does it have

165
00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,880
Speaker 1: to be physical? It doesn't. So when your boss says

166
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,600
Speaker 1: to you, you're not getting that raise next time, if

167
00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,280
Speaker 1: you're not going to work extra hours this weekend, or

168
00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,959
Speaker 1: you might even think of parents who you know when

169
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,240
Speaker 1: you're threatening your kid that you're going to ground them.

170
00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,160
Speaker 1: So the implied threat often in humans that tends to

171
00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,120
Speaker 1: be verbal, right, but that is nevertheless still a form

172
00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:49,360
Speaker 1: of dominance. The second strategy to achieve status is prestige.

173
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,240
Speaker 1: That's where you earn respect and influence based on your

174
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,520
Speaker 1: skills and talents. So when my mom was sternly reminding

175
00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,400
Speaker 1: me I'm your mother, not your friend, she was flexing eminence.

176
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,040
Speaker 1: Whereas when I proposed that we discussed the bedtime protocols.

177
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:06,880
Speaker 1: I was hoping to be judged on my merit and

178
00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:13,520
Speaker 1: awarded some prestige. All human communities form hierarchies, and on

179
00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,280
Speaker 1: this we turned to Dr Zach Garfield, behavioral scientist and

180
00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,800
Speaker 1: evolutionary anthropologist at the Institute for Advanced Study and to

181
00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,479
Speaker 1: Lose France. He says that even in hunter gatherers societies

182
00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,200
Speaker 1: that might not have fixed rules like chieftain people don't

183
00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,920
Speaker 1: live together as complete equals, there are still leaders still

184
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,839
Speaker 1: varying levels of status. The hierarchy is just more dynamic.

185
00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,560
Speaker 1: Social influence might be more often based on just individual

186
00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,960
Speaker 1: capacities and the context. So what are we doing now?

187
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,280
Speaker 1: Are we trying to clear feel? Are we trying to hunt?

188
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,080
Speaker 1: Do we have a problem that needs to be resolved?

189
00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,760
Speaker 1: Who can best coordinate this collective action dilemma? And whoever

190
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:52,360
Speaker 1: it kind of is there and can get the job

191
00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,320
Speaker 1: done might be chosen as a leader. Every culture operates

192
00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,760
Speaker 1: by its own rules, but there are some patterns to

193
00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,360
Speaker 1: how societies organize themselves. Cultures that developed in environments where

194
00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,160
Speaker 1: food and resources are plentiful tend to form more rigid

195
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 1: and stratified hierarchies. This trend can be seen, for example,

196
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,439
Speaker 1: in some of the Native American societies of the Pacific Northwest.

197
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,280
Speaker 1: The classic example is the northwest coast of North America,

198
00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,200
Speaker 1: where you have salmon runs. Many populations in the Northwest

199
00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:27,360
Speaker 1: coast did practice institutionalized slavery both before and after European colonization.

200
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,319
Speaker 1: Some native tribes enslaved people and forced them into lives

201
00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:38,199
Speaker 1: of labor. Some form of lightered social order is observable

202
00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,040
Speaker 1: in every human society, and in non human ones too.

203
00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,199
Speaker 1: The term pecking order, for example, This coined just over

204
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,800
Speaker 1: a hundred years ago by a Norwegian researcher studying chickens.

205
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,360
Speaker 1: He noted, there are no two individual birds of any

206
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,120
Speaker 1: given species which, when living together, did not know which

207
00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,360
Speaker 1: of the two has precedents and which is subordinate. I

208
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,640
Speaker 1: have a shape in my head for high archy, like

209
00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:04,160
Speaker 1: I'm imagining like a pyramid. Is that what you imagine

210
00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,000
Speaker 1: or do you have like a totally different shape. I

211
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,199
Speaker 1: think the pyramid is not a bad way to conceptualize.

212
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,280
Speaker 1: It's just that there's going to be many pyramids, all

213
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,079
Speaker 1: inside of each other at the same time, along different axis. Right,

214
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,600
Speaker 1: It's like a rubics cut pyramid in your head. Yeah,

215
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,040
Speaker 1: it's like a erubics creup pyramid. Yeah, and I've just

216
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,520
Speaker 1: got a child's drawing of a triangle on a white

217
00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:27,600
Speaker 1: sheet of paper. Hierarchies can overlap their complex and though

218
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,360
Speaker 1: they can sometimes be oppressive, they also help us get

219
00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 1: a ton of stuff done. One clear advantage of hierarchies

220
00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,120
Speaker 1: is they help us coordinate as a group to achieve

221
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,440
Speaker 1: some what we often call collective action. And humans, like

222
00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,800
Speaker 1: many other social species, Like all social species, we need

223
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,480
Speaker 1: to live in a group. We can't survive on our own.

224
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,800
Speaker 1: We can't consume enough calories on our own, we can't

225
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,520
Speaker 1: raise our children on our own. We generally can't be

226
00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:51,600
Speaker 1: happy on our own. So we were bound to this

227
00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:56,200
Speaker 1: group living physiologically and psychologically. Lots of evidence suggests that

228
00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,920
Speaker 1: social hierarchies allow us to coordinate groups have been the

229
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:15,400
Speaker 1: angels with non completely overlapping interests in a more effective way.

230
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,400
Speaker 1: Hierarchies are clutched when a bunch of us try to

231
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,720
Speaker 1: pull off something big. Listening to Zach reminded me of

232
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,880
Speaker 1: a filmmaker friend, Lucian, who directed a music video for

233
00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,560
Speaker 1: one of my singles, and it was like this last minute,

234
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,240
Speaker 1: little budget thing elusion wrote in a couple of film

235
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,360
Speaker 1: friends to crew and their girlfriends generously agreed to help,

236
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,000
Speaker 1: and we plan to like right around shopping carts at

237
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,160
Speaker 1: a parking lot while lipstick totally goofy. But as soon

238
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,480
Speaker 1: as the cameras started speeding, Lucian stops using people's names,

239
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,600
Speaker 1: Like when he needs something, he just tails them by

240
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,400
Speaker 1: their role on set p A or I see or gather,

241
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,720
Speaker 1: and to them, this is clearly totally normal. When I

242
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,560
Speaker 1: asked him about it later, he laughed and said he

243
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,160
Speaker 1: forgot how weird that might look from the outside, but

244
00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 1: that the rigid structure was actually part of what attracted

245
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,320
Speaker 1: at him to film in the first place. It provides

246
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,200
Speaker 1: order to this big community of freelance artists and technicians

247
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:10,280
Speaker 1: that need to perform their jobs essentially interchangeably, and film

248
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,680
Speaker 1: is a relatively new medium, he reminded me, so that

249
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,200
Speaker 1: strict hierarchy just sort of emerged to make it all possible.

250
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,520
Speaker 1: But yes, it was funny when he thought about it,

251
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,320
Speaker 1: that he was shouting PA to get the attention of

252
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,000
Speaker 1: the woman that he'd be going home with later. On

253
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,360
Speaker 1: a proper movie set, people might be hoping to be

254
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,160
Speaker 1: recognized for their skills and then promoted on the next

255
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,320
Speaker 1: shoot the assistant director with an eye on the director's chair.

256
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,240
Speaker 1: All individuals compete for status, pursue some social influence or

257
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,280
Speaker 1: some social rank. We all can't strive to be the

258
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,400
Speaker 1: next Lebron James. We know we all can't strive to

259
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,960
Speaker 1: be the next nuclear physicist. But everyone can find some

260
00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:46,920
Speaker 1: domain in which they can compete for status. And I

261
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:48,880
Speaker 1: think that is a universal feature of who we are.

262
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,680
Speaker 1: Why just built in, like, what is this appetite for status?

263
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,240
Speaker 1: So by finding some domain in which we can develop

264
00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,440
Speaker 1: some expertise, it makes you a valuable social partner. I'm

265
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,440
Speaker 1: just gonna allow you to develop that social capital. And

266
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,240
Speaker 1: if you can do that, then you'll be more likely

267
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,520
Speaker 1: to survive, have greater well being survived, and reproduce. So

268
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,240
Speaker 1: I think that's part of it. The motive to form

269
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,600
Speaker 1: hierarchies maybe universal, but as we've heard, the resultant structures

270
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,560
Speaker 1: look really different around the world. One of the most

271
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:25,239
Speaker 1: formalized institutional versions of social stratification is the cast system

272
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:33,200
Speaker 1: of South Asia. I'm aside that many economists and Ashoka University.

273
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,120
Speaker 1: When you meet someone on the street, can you tell

274
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,120
Speaker 1: immediately what cast that prison is from. No, you cannot.

275
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,880
Speaker 1: For example, in urban India, you get into the metro

276
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,520
Speaker 1: commuter train and you would not be able to tell

277
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,880
Speaker 1: looking at people which costs they belong to. Absolutely not.

278
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,200
Speaker 1: A Shweeny lives in Delhi and she wrote a book

279
00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:58,440
Speaker 1: called The Grammar of Cast. There isn't a straightforward counterpart

280
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,400
Speaker 1: for cast in the West. It's not quite like race

281
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,600
Speaker 1: or class, though there are overlaps. Cast is something you're

282
00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,639
Speaker 1: born into, something that can't be changed, even if your

283
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,680
Speaker 1: circumstances do like blood type. And there are thousands of

284
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:16,120
Speaker 1: jetty or individual cast designations, and historically each was linked

285
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,800
Speaker 1: to a particular vocation priest or warrior, builder, farmer. The

286
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,480
Speaker 1: system is ancient, but it's very much survived in modern India,

287
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:26,960
Speaker 1: even if it functions less visibly than it used to.

288
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,720
Speaker 1: A lot of contemporary modern occupations have no cost counterpart.

289
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,840
Speaker 1: There is no cost of dentists or rocket scientists or

290
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,240
Speaker 1: nuclear scientists, graphic designers, so if you want to encountered

291
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,640
Speaker 1: a graphic designer, you wouldn't know what costs they belonged to.

292
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,200
Speaker 1: But it still matters. Families aim to marry within their

293
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,400
Speaker 1: own cast, and when people apply for jobs, private employers

294
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,080
Speaker 1: try to suss out the cast of the applicants. The

295
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,359
Speaker 1: system is culturally pervasive in South Asia. Some Muslim and

296
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,680
Speaker 1: Christian communities and that part of the world have cast structures.

297
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,639
Speaker 1: But the philosophical roots of the system connect to the

298
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,480
Speaker 1: religious concept of reincarnation. And so what you are today

299
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,840
Speaker 1: it must be because you're either being rewarded for being

300
00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:09,640
Speaker 1: good in the past life of you are being punished

301
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,440
Speaker 1: for being bad in the past life. It's got my

302
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,879
Speaker 1: basically in that world view, it would then follow that

303
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,679
Speaker 1: the people born into the most empoverished and disrespected casts

304
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:25,080
Speaker 1: somehow deserve it. The most severe consequences of the system

305
00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,560
Speaker 1: are born by those that were historically regarded as untouchable.

306
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:34,400
Speaker 1: Untouchability is a set of practices that deems any interaction

307
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,399
Speaker 1: with a certain group of people polluting. If they had

308
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,320
Speaker 1: to cross the street in the village, they would have

309
00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,600
Speaker 1: to take their shoes off if they were wearing any

310
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:47,120
Speaker 1: shoes at all, so that their footwear doesn't pollute the grounds, etcetera, etcetera.

311
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,399
Speaker 1: So it was the most degrading experience of living. What

312
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,040
Speaker 1: is the source of that? It's the occupations that these

313
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,800
Speaker 1: groups were doing so basically everything that deals with dead

314
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:03,560
Speaker 1: animals or per sins or excreta of any bodily fluid

315
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,920
Speaker 1: things that are literally dirty. All of those occupations were

316
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:13,800
Speaker 1: considered untouchable because these occupations were considered impure. But India's

317
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:19,000
Speaker 1: Constitution of nineteen change that untouchability has been deemed illegal

318
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,520
Speaker 1: in independent India. Well on paper itegal, but many, many

319
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:30,200
Speaker 1: people still practice untouchability. Discrimination is rampant, unapologetic, and totally

320
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,359
Speaker 1: over it. A teacher might send an untouchable boy to

321
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,600
Speaker 1: sit behind in the class and say, what are you

322
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,320
Speaker 1: doing here? You know you're going to grow up and

323
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,200
Speaker 1: become a sweeper. Why do you need to get educated?

324
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:45,760
Speaker 1: There is documentary evidence where students who belong to untouchable groups,

325
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,280
Speaker 1: boys and girls, are made to clean toilets, a job

326
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,879
Speaker 1: that janitors in school should be doing, not children. Members

327
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,440
Speaker 1: of casts that were considered untouchable often call themselves dallets,

328
00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,760
Speaker 1: which means oppressed, and it's a term of pride. But

329
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,960
Speaker 1: evidence of the continued depression is everywhere. Often on roadside

330
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 1: stalls that sell t you will see that there are

331
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,920
Speaker 1: two kinds of tumblers kept there. There are some inferior tumblers,

332
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 1: and everybody knows that these tumblers are for the formerly

333
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:20,960
Speaker 1: untouchable groups, and someone breaking the unstated codes risks violence.

334
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 1: He could just get beaten up. It happens literally every day.

335
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:31,280
Speaker 1: So cast based violence is all pervasive for forgetting your

336
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,879
Speaker 1: place in society, and sexual violence against the women by

337
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,840
Speaker 1: upper cast men is also a way of showing the

338
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 1: lists where they belong. You better not forget your position,

339
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 1: otherwise will humiliate your women. Today, dalets are organizing campaigning

340
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,919
Speaker 1: for fair treatment, building a dalt middle class, which of

341
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:56,600
Speaker 1: course comes with its own resentments and complications. Do you

342
00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:01,160
Speaker 1: think the caste system reveals something about out human nature,

343
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,560
Speaker 1: not just about India or South Asia. Yeah, many of

344
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:10,120
Speaker 1: us benefit from inequality, and whether we are consciously aware

345
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 1: of that or not, we wouldn't be desperate to change

346
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 1: the system that would take away many of our benefits.

347
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 1: It may not happen in my lifetime, but hopefully, you know,

348
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 1: we will see strives to us day equality. Back to Chenyang,

349
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 1: the second or four daughters who grew up hidden from

350
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 1: the authorities, big changes would in fact happen in her lifetime,

351
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 1: but will rejoin her story where we left it when

352
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,959
Speaker 1: shen Yang was a little girl, so in my family

353
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:48,360
Speaker 1: household registration, I don't exist. To attend school, however, children

354
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 1: needed a household registration document, so the aunt and uncle

355
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 1: that chen Yang was living with I bought the document

356
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:58,200
Speaker 1: from a distant relative named wun Ying, as she herself

357
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 1: was buying someone else's a document that would register her

358
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 1: in a big city, which would give her more opportunities

359
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 1: in her own education. To use wun Yang's papers, shen

360
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,640
Speaker 1: Yang had to pretend the details written on it were

361
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 1: her own, including her age and birthday. They changed my

362
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,119
Speaker 1: birthday to night four, so by law and miss Huang's

363
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: niece and I don't have parents, shen Yan's teachers called

364
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 1: her by the other girl's name in school. When she

365
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 1: got a driver's license, it was printed with the other

366
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 1: girl's name, and when she was married, the other girl's

367
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,920
Speaker 1: birthday was read out loud at the wedding. And Shenyong

368
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:36,360
Speaker 1: started to write a book about what her life has

369
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 1: been like as an excess child. And none of us

370
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 1: tell our own life stories with academic terms like elevated

371
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 1: social rank. But shen Yang's position in the social hierarchy

372
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 1: does look different now. There were people who used to

373
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 1: look down upon me. You want to publish a book?

374
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 1: Who do you think you are? Status is so often

375
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,879
Speaker 1: informed by old forces and actors ideas about class, race, gender.

376
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 1: But this strange rule that's so defined Shen Young's position

377
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 1: in society was enacted only a few years before she

378
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:16,159
Speaker 1: was born, and then it evaporated in the government started

379
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 1: to relax the one child policy, and then last year

380
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: two thousand twenty one, on May the thirty one, the

381
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 1: government released the New Potter City allow every couple to

382
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: have three children. How is your status different now the

383
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: one child policy is over. You live in a big city.

384
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 1: You have published a super rad book that has been

385
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 1: translated into at least one other language. People think, oh,

386
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 1: she's a writer now, because before I was nobody. I

387
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 1: don't want to be famous. I just want to tell

388
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: a story that is worth teddy. But of course, no

389
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 1: shift in policy can retroactively revise a childhood and a

390
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: comment she read online particularly resonated with Chenille. Once the

391
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 1: New Potter says out the sky I off Guangjo has

392
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 1: stuned our som immediately, and it's really havin It's the

393
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: tears of the eighties and Manetes generation. Human hierarchies help

394
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: us collaborate on goals we'd never be able to achieve

395
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: on our own. They can also minimize conflict by establishing

396
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 1: clear roles and expectations, and of course, sometimes they can

397
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 1: simply help people in powers stay that way at the

398
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: expense of those without the means to topple the pyramid.

399
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: Our hierarchical rules are sometimes codified boss versus assistant, mother

400
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 1: versus friend, and sometimes they're fluid. The homie whom majored

401
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 1: in film studies gets to pick the movie. The foodie

402
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: picks the place to order in. I am technically writing

403
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: this in my own corner office, but only that I

404
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 1: am sitting in a corner of my apartment, and wherever

405
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: I am working is functionally rendered an office. Now, when

406
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 1: I think back on that kid bragging about a dad,

407
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: it's a little bit more sympathy. We're all, in some sense,

408
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 1: little Charlotte Magne's and Charlie Mindy's trying to earn some respect,

409
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: so we've got something to offer. The trick is to

410
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: eke out some space for yourself without pushing someone else overboard.

411
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 1: Years ago, after the death of a family friend, rocked

412
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 1: my world pretty hard. I went to India and stood

413
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 1: for a long time at the burning gods, watching the

414
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 1: recently dead be incinerated in the open air by carefully

415
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: tended fires. And I loved India. The beauty and the

416
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: drama move me. Staring into the fires, I was brought

417
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: back to myself by a man. I hadn't heard. Approach

418
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: you know cast, he asked. I told him that I did,

419
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 1: and he explained he was a dom, a member of

420
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 1: the untouchable cast that for generations and generations lit the

421
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: funeral pyres. The low cast bodies were burned right on

422
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: the sand, he explained, but where the high cast ones

423
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: were burned, they could afford sandalwood. And he gestured for

424
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: me to inhale deep to note how good the high

425
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: cast fires smell. When we parted, we were both covered

426
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: in a fine layer of ash, partly the remains of

427
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 1: the deceased and status as sandal would perfume still rising

428
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: from the fires. Deeply Human is a BBC World Service

429
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 1: and American Public media co production with I Heart Media.

430
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: It's hosted by me Jessa. Find me online at Tessa

431
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Dussa Darling on Twitter Next time, I'm

432
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: deeply human. We're talking about all your stuff, about the

433
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: human impulse to acquire, collect even horde. Is that impulse

434
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 1: driven by modern marketing or by older, deeper forces. Meet

435
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: me at the junk drawer for our next little chat