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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio Happy Friday. How do we normally

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Speaker 1: start these No, my brain is just like nope, I'm done,

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Speaker 1: Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy P. Wilson and your

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Speaker 1: Holly Fry. We're totally doing it. Yes. Uh, for some reason,

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Speaker 1: our minds are a little frazzled. We have just recorded

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Speaker 1: an episode though, about Margaret Lucas Cavendish. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that inspired this episode is one of my least

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Speaker 1: favorite behaviors on Twitter, which is when everyone decides that

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Speaker 1: somebody needs to be relentlessly dunked on. And in this

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Speaker 1: case it wasn't admittedly overly reductive, overly simplified sweet about

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Speaker 1: who invented science? Fixed? Shin? Do you remember? Do you

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Speaker 1: remember this? This Twitter thing? I usually bump right out

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Speaker 1: of those because like, nobody's going to convince anybody, and

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Speaker 1: all you get is a lot of people yelling yeah

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Speaker 1: so I So, I think there is a valid point

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Speaker 1: to be made about um. We talked in our episode

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Speaker 1: about Hugo gerns Back about creating the genre of science fiction,

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Speaker 1: like imagining that these this type of literature has traits

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Speaker 1: in common that you can market as a genre. But

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Speaker 1: that is not how it was written. It was written

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Speaker 1: sort of like, uh, Hugo Gerns back in H. G.

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Speaker 1: Wells invented science fiction. Um, and of course people relentlessly

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Speaker 1: dunked on that, um ed girl and Poe would like

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Speaker 1: a word. I mean, yeah, there's so many examples. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Margaret Lucas Cavendish would like a word was one of

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Speaker 1: the things. Uh. And I found it very frustrating because

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Speaker 1: I was like, you know, I think it's a really

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Speaker 1: interesting story about like how the idea of a literary

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Speaker 1: genre comes to be and like this various definition writing

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Speaker 1: and gatekeeping and stuff like that that that becomes part

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Speaker 1: of establishing that. But instead there was just a lot

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Speaker 1: of tweets naming various people who had published stories that

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Speaker 1: could be described as science fiction. And I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I think at some point we might have a blazing

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Speaker 1: World episode of the podcast. But yes, no one, no

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Speaker 1: one agrees, which is part of the wonder of it, right, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there have always been people who have had fanciful concepts

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Speaker 1: that could be interpreted, depending on where they fall in

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Speaker 1: the timeline, as science fiction. But because we didn't have

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Speaker 1: that term. It just kind of been flapping in the breeze,

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Speaker 1: being you know, outliers of a lot of the other

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Speaker 1: literature that was going on in the day, and so

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Speaker 1: at that it becomes like, I mean, we could do

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Speaker 1: an entire show that's like all the books that people

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Speaker 1: go Nope, that's science fiction, but wasn't ever recognized as such,

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Speaker 1: certainly during its own time and often for a long

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Speaker 1: time after. It's yeah, and a lot of it really like,

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Speaker 1: how exactly are you defining science fiction? Um? One definition

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Speaker 1: that I have seen that I really like in a

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Speaker 1: lot of ways as that, Uh, in a work of

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Speaker 1: science fiction, the science is playing a critical part to

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Speaker 1: the story that is unfolding and like the underpinning of

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Speaker 1: the world, right Uh. And if it is um something

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Speaker 1: where the science seems to be treated more like magic

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Speaker 1: than that's really fantasy. And it's like, I I can

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Speaker 1: see that distinction in my mind. I don't know that

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Speaker 1: it's really helpful to make a distinction like that, but

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Speaker 1: like I can see I can see that working as

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Speaker 1: a framework, and in that regard, I would I feel

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Speaker 1: like The Blazing World in a lot of ways is

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Speaker 1: more like a fantasy than a work of science fiction. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it does comment on science a lot, but it seems

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Speaker 1: a little more magical in like the purportedly scientific things

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Speaker 1: that happen in it. I have not read it, but

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Speaker 1: as as we were discussing in the episode, the segment

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Speaker 1: where there's a microscopic examination of a fly, I'm like, wait,

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Speaker 1: didn't she say they were fly man? What did they

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Speaker 1: have to say about all this? That's a good point

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Speaker 1: that I hadn't thought of. What what did the flyman

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Speaker 1: and the lifeman think about this? Weird? Couldn't they have

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Speaker 1: just said those aren't pearls, baby, like I know I

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Speaker 1: see out of them. In fact, one thing that I

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Speaker 1: wanted to note is that her descriptions about her own

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm going to call it anxiety. She like

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Speaker 1: she talks about bashfulness, but like as an anxious person.

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Speaker 1: It resonated with me a lot of the things that

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Speaker 1: she said about it, And in terms of what she

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Speaker 1: wrote in her autobiography about her relationship with her husband, Um,

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Speaker 1: the way she described it is the way that I

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Speaker 1: could see, like married a sexual folks I know, describing

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Speaker 1: their relationship very much so UM. And it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things where I it's totally possible that there are

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Speaker 1: other letters and things of hers that I just did

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Speaker 1: not have access to, where there's more thought on herself

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Speaker 1: and her relationships and that kind of stuff. But it's

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Speaker 1: like having only those small passages to go on makes

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Speaker 1: it hard to like broadly draw conclusions. But it is

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Speaker 1: a case where I sort of I can see uh,

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Speaker 1: myself and other people I know kind of reflected in

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Speaker 1: things that she wrote. Um, I really wish we had

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Speaker 1: images of her clothes. Yeah, I mean we have some

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Speaker 1: like portraits and stuff of her, but not portraits that

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Speaker 1: reflect that aspect of her clothing that people seem fixated on. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's more like, well, that looks like a really ostentatious gown.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't look like something that I feel like she

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Speaker 1: signed on her own to also incorporate what would have

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Speaker 1: been more traditionally men's where. So yeah, I really really

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Speaker 1: there's another aspect of this that reminded me. It's a

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Speaker 1: thing that's come up a lot, I feel like in

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Speaker 1: our in many, many, many episodes that we've never really

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Speaker 1: talked about, and it's publishing and the way it has

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Speaker 1: shifted over time. Right like today it's all I got

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Speaker 1: a book deal. But back then it was I raised

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Speaker 1: the money to arrange for my book to be published,

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Speaker 1: which is a bit different. Um. Which is why like

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Speaker 1: information sharing and accessibility was very much the realm of

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Speaker 1: people with cash or people who had friends with cash. Um.

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Speaker 1: And that's like an inequity that we don't talk about

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Speaker 1: a whole lot um, but is like a really critical

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Speaker 1: part of sort of the framework. I think it's it's

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Speaker 1: vital to remember when you're reading anything historical, is like, well,

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Speaker 1: odds are good that unless this was like a found

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Speaker 1: something in a very unique circumstance, that this is we're

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Speaker 1: getting like the upper rungs of society and their take. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We We mentioned in the episode that there were more

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Speaker 1: women publishing, but mostly anymously anonymously and like mostly small pamphlets,

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Speaker 1: And that wasn't because women didn't have enough to say

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Speaker 1: to fill a whole book. It was largely about money.

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Speaker 1: Like a woman printing something anonymously on her own a

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Speaker 1: lot of times only had an amount of money that

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Speaker 1: would cover one folded sheet of paper, but uh, not

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Speaker 1: a whole book with bindings and artwork that was going

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Speaker 1: to be included, which is the sort of stuff that

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Speaker 1: Margaret Lucas Cavendish had enough money to do. Yeah, um again,

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Speaker 1: what did the fly men think? I just keep that um,

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Speaker 1: you were going to tell a funny dog store. So

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Speaker 1: as as our listener Mail was discussing that they have

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Speaker 1: a dog that will just sit and not do the moving,

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Speaker 1: and we were talking about other dogs. I saw the

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Speaker 1: funniest instance of this ever when I was still running

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Speaker 1: quite a bit, and it was during a five k

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Speaker 1: and this very very fit, but very very petite woman

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Speaker 1: was running with a rather cobby Cocker Spaniel, which is

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Speaker 1: my way to say that dog had a lot of

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Speaker 1: extra pounds. It was a very heavy dog, and somewhere

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Speaker 1: around mile one point seven, the dog just sat down

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Speaker 1: flat and this tiny little woman's legs flew out from

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Speaker 1: under her as she landed on her ba dog. And

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Speaker 1: it was just this funny thing because I, um, I

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Speaker 1: don't remember the dog's name, but it was a very

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Speaker 1: funny dog's name, like a person's name, where she was

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Speaker 1: like Ernie and then she just had to like lift

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Speaker 1: the back end of him up to get him moving again,

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Speaker 1: and they walked the rest of the way. That was

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Speaker 1: also the same race where I saw them and run

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Speaker 1: the entire race carrying what was obviously a very pampered

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Speaker 1: and happy chihuahua, but just in her arms like a

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Speaker 1: baby as she ran, and the dog seems so happy.

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Speaker 1: But that was easily the worst instance and the funniest

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Speaker 1: because she seemed fine. Like several of us stopped and

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Speaker 1: were like, are you okay because she felt and she

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Speaker 1: was like, yes, this isn't the first time. But just

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Speaker 1: put the brakes on so hard. Yeah, dogs that I'm

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Speaker 1: done now. And at that point, right you're out in

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Speaker 1: the middle of a course. It's not like you could

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Speaker 1: just go back to the car. You got to get

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Speaker 1: the other half of the race finished to get the

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Speaker 1: dog poppies. It's very cute, very bad, but very cute.

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Speaker 1: Never run a five k with cats. It's not a

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Speaker 1: thing I would ever do. I mean, it sounds kind

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Speaker 1: of fascinating, but no, maybe a cat in a stroller,

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Speaker 1: if you have a cat that's amenable to such things. Maybe.

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Speaker 1: I feel like even that I would be walking. I

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Speaker 1: don't think I could run. I would worry about bouncing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: very into the spoiled animals. I love the idea of

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Speaker 1: calling your dog to explain the situation to them. Like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you gotta, you gotta get up. I know you don't

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Speaker 1: want to, but you have to. I'll be at home.

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Speaker 1: Come on. I love it me too, me do. We

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Speaker 1: talked about maybe Lee this week. She is very, very

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Speaker 1: fascinating to me because she is I feel like she

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Speaker 1: often gets quick write ups that talk about her suffrage work,

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Speaker 1: but not as many that talk about her kind of

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Speaker 1: social services in Chinatown and her her work at the mission,

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Speaker 1: even though that really took up much more of her life. Um,

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Speaker 1: And I understand it's trickier to talk about since one,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's a community that has its own history,

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Speaker 1: and probably a lot of what she did was not

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Speaker 1: even recorded, right like Chinatown as a small neighborhood ish

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Speaker 1: relatively speaking, Um, you know, there was probably a lot

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Speaker 1: going on that wasn't getting written down every day, as

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Speaker 1: in any neighborhood that has like a really strong ethnic

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Speaker 1: or social identity. I think, I feel like there's a

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Speaker 1: lot we're going to miss that never becomes part of

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Speaker 1: recorded history, unfortunately. But it's interesting. I hadn't not known

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Speaker 1: until I was doing research, and pretty late in my research,

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Speaker 1: that she had set up a health clinic there, um,

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Speaker 1: which is a really really cool, an important thing to

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Speaker 1: have achieved, but it's like you don't see very much

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Speaker 1: about it in a lot of the writing about her. Um,

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Speaker 1: which was interesting. I could look at pictures of maybe

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Speaker 1: Lee all day every day because she's one of those

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Speaker 1: people who in photographs, and most of the photographs we

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Speaker 1: have of her are when she was younger. But she

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Speaker 1: has that look in her eyes that is so intense

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Speaker 1: and almost frightening in the like you just know, like

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Speaker 1: this person can think circles around me and would probably

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Speaker 1: just drown me in information if I tried to challenge them.

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Speaker 1: She just has like there's a beauty to her because

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Speaker 1: of that, because of that intensity that she conveys that

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Speaker 1: I really find appealing. Um, it's interesting to be a

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Speaker 1: mouthpiece for something when you're sixteen, I think, yeah, for sure,

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Speaker 1: for sure. Like I found myself going, what crazy? What

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Speaker 1: is she saying about? You know, education being to make

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Speaker 1: yourself for a man? And I was like, oh, one,

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Speaker 1: this was a long time ago to she was sixteen.

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Speaker 1: If anyone judged me by the crap I said when

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Speaker 1: I was sixteen, same well, I wrote, I was on

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Speaker 1: the newspaper staff my senior year of high school, um,

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Speaker 1: and I wrote opinion columns and wow, my opinions were

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Speaker 1: very bad like that, not very bad in a way

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Speaker 1: that I'm like I should incarcerate myself in thought, sale,

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Speaker 1: but more like I had been exposed to, you know,

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Speaker 1: a pretty conservative household, and I also thought I knew everything, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean that comes with the sixteen year old package. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: uh yeah, which is interesting. I mean, I I don't

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Speaker 1: know anybody who's like, yes, the things I said when

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Speaker 1: I was sixteen were all correct, and I will stand

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Speaker 1: by them now in my later you know, very few

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Speaker 1: the things I said six months ago were not all correct. Right,

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Speaker 1: Kudos you if you have that conviction and you can

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Speaker 1: look your sixteen year old self and be like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I was right about everything, but I can't imagine it. Nope.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're all growing and changing, hopefully for the better.

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Speaker 1: But it is it's I think about, you know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we certainly have seen young people in our time that

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Speaker 1: have been elevated to be really like the focal point

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Speaker 1: of a movement or an activism. And it's much different,

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Speaker 1: of course, right like blah blah, social media, modern age, um,

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Speaker 1: but it is much different. So I'll be curious to

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Speaker 1: see and hopefully I'm around long enough to see how

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Speaker 1: they evolve over time and as they age into middle adulthood,

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Speaker 1: how they will look back on on their activism, you know,

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Speaker 1: which I hope is great because often I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and right behind them, a lot of activists in that

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Speaker 1: age group are saying so hopefully that they'll age with

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Speaker 1: a better relevance. Yeah, it is. There are there are

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Speaker 1: differences between you know, growing up without the Internet in

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Speaker 1: anything like what we have now. Like by the time

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Speaker 1: I graduated from high school, I was participating in dial

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Speaker 1: up bulletin boards. But that's not the same as having

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Speaker 1: like broad access to people from all kinds of different

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Speaker 1: backgrounds sharing their own thoughts and experiences and interpretations of

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Speaker 1: things like. It wasn't like that at all. It was

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Speaker 1: a bunch of other eighteen year olds all dialing up

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Speaker 1: from their parents living rooms in uh northwest North Carolina

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Speaker 1: because it was local numbers that we dialed into for

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Speaker 1: the bulletin boards. Those were the days. Um, I don't

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Speaker 1: think I was cool enough for that. I was. It

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Speaker 1: was not cool at all. Well, I was busy being

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Speaker 1: artsy far see in my own way, so I didn't

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Speaker 1: you know. And then I'm a few years, like three

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Speaker 1: years older than you, I think, so I was off

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Speaker 1: doing other ill behaved I remember, like my good friends

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Speaker 1: little brother being on similar services and me being like man,

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Speaker 1: you know, not having any use for that or understanding

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Speaker 1: its potential. So yet another thing that I have been

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Speaker 1: a dingdong about. No one wants to call each other

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Speaker 1: on their computers, What is this nonsense? Yeah? Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: had a whole second phone line for the calling. Eventually.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, Well, because my I came home from school

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Speaker 1: by myself. Uh and you know, it was my job

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Speaker 1: to start dinner and all that kind of stuff. Um,

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Speaker 1: and my mom would usually call about thirty minutes after

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Speaker 1: I supposed to get home to make sure I had

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Speaker 1: gotten home okay. And once we started having dial up things,

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Speaker 1: she would try to call all home and the line

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Speaker 1: would be busy because because I would be on the computer,

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Speaker 1: and you couldn't have call waiting for that because the

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Speaker 1: call waiting would kick you off of your connection. So eventually,

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Speaker 1: as a Christmas gift, my parents got a second phone

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Speaker 1: line that was for mine and my brother's personal phone

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Speaker 1: calls and our computer use. That is amazing that feels

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Speaker 1: so forward thinking because my parents would not have done that. Um.

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Speaker 1: My parents were very old school in some way. We

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Speaker 1: didn't have cable, Like until after I was grown up

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Speaker 1: and moved out of the house. We didn't I was

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Speaker 1: still living in the house, but like we for a

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Speaker 1: long time we had the channels that we could get

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Speaker 1: with the antenna that was mounted on the roof. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I had cable in my own apartment before my parents

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Speaker 1: had cable. You know, it was a very that's wasteful.

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Speaker 1: We don't have the same spending habits in any case,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure they would tell you that sixteen year old

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Speaker 1: me was a pain in the neck and remained thus.

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure my father is still hoping I grow

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Speaker 1: out of whatever phase I am in. I'm sorry, Dad,

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Speaker 1: it's not going to happen. But um, I do want

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Speaker 1: to circle back to May Believe, because I do want

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Speaker 1: to reiterate what I said at the end of that

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Speaker 1: episode that to me, she's such an inspiring figure because

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Speaker 1: she fought so hard for something that was not going

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Speaker 1: to help her. Yeah, which makes me love her deeply. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: even if we don't have all the same opinions on everything.

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Speaker 1: That in and of itself is a huge indicator of

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Speaker 1: who a person is in my book. So we hope

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Speaker 1: that you have a wonderful weekend ahead of you. If

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Speaker 1: you don't, if you have stuff you have to do,

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Speaker 1: if your schedule is not the standard work week weekend,

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Speaker 1: I hope that whatever is on your plate is not

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Speaker 1: too much and then it goes smoothly and that you

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Speaker 1: do get some time to yourself to relax and recharge.

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Speaker 1: I hope that all of you are good to each other.

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Speaker 1: We will be right back here tomorrow with a classic

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Speaker 1: and then on Monday with brand new episodes. Stuff you

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Speaker 1: missed in History Class is a production of I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i

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Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows.