1 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Danny and Samantha, and welcome to stuff. 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: I've never told your protection of I Heart Radio. So 3 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: as listeners may know, we were recently in l A 4 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: in California. I'm like, well, there probably is another l A. 5 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: But I don't know why I felt any but yes, 6 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: l A in California. Yes, and um, we had a 7 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: really really great time. I spoke about a little gut 8 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: to ride and ride it Disneyland. I really want to ride. Um. 9 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: But while we were there, Samantha and I were cat 10 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: called right honestly, and this is the sad state of 11 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: affairs for good that that happened. Yeah, until you and 12 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: I started talking about it, I was like, oh my god, 13 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: Yeah they did, didn't they. It was a weird thing 14 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: because while we were being cat called, it was very 15 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: specific to whatever we were wearing, whatever we were doing, 16 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: and it was kind of randomly done. But yeah, I forgot. Yeah, 17 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: and not only did you forget, which is kind of troubling. 18 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: I immediately thought to myself, but we're with a man, right. 19 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: So we had a friend come with us at that point, 20 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: and he was in the middle and talking to us, 21 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: and I thought the same thing. I think I turned 22 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: around and looked at you and said, he's here. I 23 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: can't believe they ever do that with him here. And 24 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: it was obvious that, you know, we were very close 25 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: to him, like we were just hanging out together. So 26 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: it was kind of like, wow, I'll have the audacity, 27 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: well even the thought though, the fact that that occurred 28 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: to me at all, But if that should have been enough, right, 29 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: if I have a man with me, then I won't 30 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 1: be harassed. That is a problematic thought, right, And that's 31 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: also just a problematic thought in general that oh men 32 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: wouldn't understand because that is also probably they don't realize 33 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: this happens that often a b. But the fact that 34 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: they're that hey about my friend Joe. He looked at 35 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: us and kind of kind of shocked, like, am I 36 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: not here? Yeah? I think he was just to surprise 37 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: as we were out of card. Yeah. One of the 38 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: most interesting, I don't know a great word for it, 39 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: but enlightening maybe conversations I've ever had with a male 40 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: friend of mine where I was shocked at how shocked 41 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: he was because I was. We were walking down Pontsta 42 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: Leon together to the street here in Atlanta, and it's 43 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 1: I walk it pretty frequently, and I would be like, okay, 44 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: let's up here and cross the street. And he said 45 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: why and I said, well, if I'm gonna get called 46 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: if we stay on this side, so we need to 47 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: cars stup it here. And he's like wait what yes, 48 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: and he was asked. He just had so many fall 49 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: up questions like okay, so you know what side of 50 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: the street. Oh yeah, these are things. It's impacted the 51 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: way I walked to work. Um, like it changes on 52 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: certain days too, and it's so frustrating. It's one of 53 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: those things that I really don't want to have to 54 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:52,679 Speaker 1: deal with this, right, the fact that we have to 55 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: strategize just a walking pattern or just trying to get 56 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: to the grocery store. And you know, if you see, 57 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: like it's certain areas where you've consistently had someone yell 58 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: at you and or this type of environment. So whether 59 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: it's you went to Marty Grass and it's an automatic 60 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 1: freedom to yell or harass you, it's kind of like, okay, 61 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 1: I'm going to go into this area to make sure 62 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: I have to deal with that less. Yeah. And after 63 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: this happened to as in l A, we had a 64 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: very brief conversation about we don't want to model that 65 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: that's okay for younger people, But there is that moment 66 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: of do I want to engage in this and it 67 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: could be dangerous. And a couple of weeks ago, I 68 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: was walking to the grocery store and a man cat 69 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: called me and I had my headphones and had sunglasses on, 70 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: which is another strategy that a lot of women knew, 71 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: and he followed me into the grocery store, yelling at 72 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: me that I did not respond to his cat call. Right. 73 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: I think oftentimes when I'm cat called, I will at 74 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: least respond in a friendly manner and hopes that I 75 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: can diffuse the situation. But that's a problematic thing because 76 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: we were again, I feel like I'm feeding into yeah, 77 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: well what it will be a habit and accepted as 78 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: this is okay because at least you responded it. But 79 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: oftentimes I'm like no and walk away. But just responding 80 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: alone engages. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely a tricky situation because 81 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: you don't want young girls to see that and think okay, 82 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: our boys, uh yeah, that's okay. Yeah. At the same time, 83 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: there are these other levels of things happening. So that's 84 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: been on our minds, and that is why we brought 85 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: back this classic episode on cat calling. Welcome to Stuff 86 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: Mob Never told you from how Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, 87 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, 88 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: and today we are revisiting a topic that we talked 89 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: about in two thousand eleven, but we absolutely need to 90 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: talk about it again because there are lots of conversations 91 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: going on these days about cat calling and street harassment. Yeah, 92 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: because I'm sure you guys are familiar with the Hollaback 93 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: video that just came out not too long ago, featuring 94 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: a woman she's an actress, walking through the streets of 95 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: New York for ten hours and facing numerous cat calls 96 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: and street harassment from men on the street. The video 97 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: itself attracted a lot of controversy because of the way 98 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: it was edited to edit out a lot of white 99 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: men who were doing cat calling in various street harassment 100 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: things um to feature mostly men of color. But that 101 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: being said, the video itself sparked a huge conversation online 102 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: between and among men and women about what is street harassment? 103 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: When is it just complimenting, when is it something scary? 104 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,679 Speaker 1: And what does it mean for all of us at large. Yeah, 105 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: And speaking of Hallaback, which is the nonprofit that UM 106 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: produced that viral video, we first talked about street harassment 107 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: on the podcast when Holliback was first gaining a lot 108 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: of media attention. UM it was founded in two thousand 109 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: five by Emily May and it was started specifically to 110 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: attract more attention to the issue of street harassment and 111 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: to facilitate bigger conversations about the frequency of street harassment 112 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: and how it very much is harassment, and also give 113 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: people tools to fight back and also connect with other 114 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: people on this issue. And the fact that pretty much 115 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: any time a woman says gender, transgender and gay men 116 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: as well leave their houses and walk down the sidewalk 117 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: a lot of times that means dealing with what we 118 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: euphemistically call cat calling. And speaking to that viral video 119 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: as well, I mean, the response to it just highlighted 120 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: probably is on top of problems for the very fact 121 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: that Shoshana Roberts, who is the actress Senate, immediately received 122 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: rape threats. She has alerted the police in the neighborhood 123 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: she lives in that this is what's going on. These 124 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: are the threats she's received, so in case something happens, 125 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: they'll know who she is when she calls. Yeah, And 126 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: to me, that's I mean, not to get off on 127 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: a tangent, but there's echoes of what's happening with a 128 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: need of sarches in there too, in terms of like, 129 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: so you you call out a problem, people say, no, 130 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: it's not a problem, but I'm going to threaten to 131 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: kill you or Raypio or Raypio. Yeah exactly. And so 132 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: another issue, of course with things that this video sort 133 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: of dug up is the fact that a lot of 134 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: people's response to it is just women, this is your problem. 135 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to give you a compliment. You're playing 136 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: the victim role. You just want to be the victim, 137 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: You just want attention, and you making it more about 138 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: the woman and it being her problem than it being 139 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: a social problem at large. It's just a compliment. Learn 140 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: how to take a compliment, um And and if you're 141 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: curious on the difference between cat calls and compliments, you 142 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: can go to stuff I've Never Told U's YouTube page 143 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: and watch the video if cat calls for Compliments, in 144 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: which you'll get a lot of examples of the differences 145 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: between the two. So first up, though, let's define street 146 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: harassment and also offers some statistics so we can get 147 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: a grasp of how often this is happening. This is 148 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: not just something happening to Shoshana Roberts when she is 149 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: making a video for Hollaback. So street harassment, to define 150 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: it is the sexual harassment of typically CIS and trans 151 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:51,239 Speaker 1: women in public spaces by typically men who are strangers, 152 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: and that includes both verbal and nonverbal behavior. It tends 153 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: to be comments on the woman's physique and her very 154 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: presence in public A lot of the time. It also 155 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: has to do with smiling. Hey, woman over there, smile, smile. 156 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: Let's see you smile. So how common is it? There 157 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: was a nationally representative study sponsored by Stop Street Harassment 158 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: which found that sixty of all women and of all 159 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: men had experienced it, and among the women had been 160 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: sexually touched, had been followed, and nine percent had been 161 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: forced to do something sexual. I think that is a 162 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: different way of saying sexual assault. Um LGBT identified respondents 163 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: were also likelier to experience it. One statistic they highlighted 164 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: was it by age seventeen. Seventy percent of LGBT individuals 165 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: experienced street harassment compared to of heterosexual people, and it 166 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: also happens around the world. Yeah um. The site medium 167 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: got into this by assigning diaries a cent lee two 168 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: women in cities all around the world in New York, 169 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: San Francisco, Los Angeles, Mexico City, Berlin in Italy, in Mongolia, 170 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: in tel Aviv, Nairobi in Singapore um and based on 171 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: these women's experiences, they found that the woman in Mexico 172 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: City experienced the worst cat calling. She had a high 173 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: of twenty nine cat calls in a single week, versus 174 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: Tel Aviv in Los Angeles, which tied for the least 175 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: cat call heavy locations with just two each. And there 176 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: were a lot of common hallmarks for this kind of behavior. UM. 177 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 1: It tended to happen most often during commute time, specifically 178 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: when women were alone, although men doing the cat calling, 179 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: we're just as likely to be alone as with other 180 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 1: men UM. And the most common form of it just 181 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: commanded a smile. They just want to see a smile. 182 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: Care Lorne. Yeah, I used to get this UM all 183 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: the time when I took public transportation to work. Not 184 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: that I would not continue too, It's just I moved 185 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. I just don't want you to 186 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: think poorly of me. I wish I could take it anyway. 187 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: UM yeah, I used to get this all the time. 188 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: And what was so weird is I never got it 189 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: from a man in a business suit. I always got 190 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: it from homeless men who were hanging out at the 191 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: train station. I mean, that's my personal experience. I know 192 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: everyone has different experiences, but and speaking to that experience, 193 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: some people have talked about the socio economic intersections with this, 194 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: because it's a lot about not compliments, obviously, but it 195 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: has a lot to do with power and power over 196 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: public spaces and cat calling and street harassment. I should say, 197 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: is often used as a tool by people who might 198 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: feel more economically and so actually marginalized to assert their 199 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: power and so, in speaking to the BBC about why 200 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:13,239 Speaker 1: some men do this, Katherine Zipple, who is a sociology 201 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: professor at Northeastern University, said, quote, oftentimes it's not really 202 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: about the women. It's just about the men performing masculine 203 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: acts for each other and establishing a pecking order amongst themselves. 204 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: What's really going on is the dynamic among men, and 205 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: in that it's so it's so crucial to this conversation 206 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: to understanding it that this is the dynamic among men 207 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: that's happening in public spaces, right because and I mean 208 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: this goes back forever as far as the conflict that 209 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: occurs and has always occurred when women enter a public sphere. 210 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: I mean, this is not cat calling and street harassment 211 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: is not a new conversation. Kristen and I read one 212 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: article that was like, oh, this is a problem that 213 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: goes all the way back to the nineteen seventies, and 214 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: it definitely has roots much much deeper, and that go 215 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: back much much farther when women first left the home 216 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: to begin with. Exactly pretty much as soon as we 217 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: began entering the public sphere on a day to day basis, 218 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: this issue arose. And a lot of this information is 219 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: coming from a self Freedman who is a scholar in 220 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: Stanford's Claimant Institute for Gender Research, and she also wrote 221 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: the book Redefining Rape, and just speaking of some etymology 222 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: when it comes to cat calling, I thought this was 223 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: really interesting. The term comes from theater. It goes back 224 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: to the mid seventeenth century form a combination of cat 225 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: and call, originally denoting a kind of whistle or squeaking 226 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: instrument used to express disapproval. Now, when we get into 227 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: street harassment in the nineteenth century and into the early 228 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: twentieth century, it went by a different name. It wasn't 229 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: so much cat calling but mat ashing and the masher, 230 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: both of which also have theatrical roots. Yeah, this, Kristen 231 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: and I got so caught up in this reading about 232 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: the Masters. It is fascinating stuff and it is just 233 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: further proof that the harassment of women in public spaces 234 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: is definitely not a new thing. So the term mash 235 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: comes from nineteenth century theater slang meaning a sweetheart or 236 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: a crush, typically of a male audience member on a 237 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: female actress, and for example, in eighty two a theater 238 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: guide to find mashers as quote masculine theater goers whose 239 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: wild ambition is to attract and hold female attention. Now, 240 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: the first time I heard about mashing was actually um 241 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: in reading about sort of the cultural history of female friendship. 242 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: And around the same time too, you would describe having 243 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: intensely strong, like platonically passionate feelings for a girlfriend as 244 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: a smell ash, and they would also they would exchange 245 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: these um mash notes to each other, but outside of 246 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: that realm and outside the theater world. Mashers became known 247 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century as the 248 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: aggressive male street flirt who quote were usually depicted in 249 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: newspapers and editorial cartoons as well dressed white men whose 250 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: behaviors were more irritating and comical than menacing. And there 251 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: were also men who viewed themselves as lady killers along 252 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: the lines of a Don Juan and other Natalie dressed gentlemen, 253 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: because that was another thing. They were often very very 254 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: snappy dressers. Um. And there was also the Parisian version 255 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: of the fleneur, which is the detached male spectator of 256 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: the urban crowd. Yeah, basically men whose quote unquote job 257 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: it is to stand around and just watch women and 258 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: provide their commentary as if they are at the theater, 259 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: and also attract their attention through their through their fashionable 260 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: clothes like Dandy's. And I think it's key to note 261 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: though that in popular culture at the time, like those 262 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: editorial cartoons that Kristen mentioned, it is important to mention 263 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: that they were depicted as white. That's key because these 264 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: are snappily dressed gentlemen they're they're mostly harmless ladies. They're 265 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: just they're just offering you a quirky kind of compliment. 266 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,239 Speaker 1: They're just kind of annoying. It's no big deal because 267 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: at the time, the perception of black men interacting with 268 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: society white society ladies was painted in an entirely different picture. 269 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: At the time, of course, like even black men making 270 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: direct eye contact with a white woman would have been 271 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: considered outright sexual assault. And so when you code non 272 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: violent mashers as white it says a lot about sort 273 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: of racial divisions at the time. Yeah, because um, really 274 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: it was age of consent campaigns and these antimash or 275 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: initiatives that were mostly focused to white men, whereas black 276 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: men were considered violent sexual creatures, they were the rapists. 277 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: White men were only to be feared for perhaps whisking 278 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: away a young woman who was too young to consent 279 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: or doing this mashing, when in reality, Freedman talks about 280 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: it was native born white men because new immigrants to 281 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: the country were also lumped into this as well and 282 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: considered more deviant and more of a danger to um 283 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: white American women, whereas it was often the white men 284 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: who were the worst when it came to street harassment 285 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: since they claimed the streets as their territory. Which does 286 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: that sound familiar? Yeah, exactly. And so I mean, what's 287 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,160 Speaker 1: going on here the social context that we're talking about, 288 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: Like Kristen said, I mean, here are white men who 289 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,719 Speaker 1: have you know, quote unquote been in charge. Then you 290 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,479 Speaker 1: have this influx of women who have always been at 291 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,439 Speaker 1: the home, immigrants, where did they even come from, and 292 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: people just of other classes and backgrounds. So suddenly white, 293 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: these white men that were talking about these mashes are 294 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: having to assert their perceived dominance over everyone around them 295 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, for the first time in these 296 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: urban spaces, you have gender, class, and race all interacting 297 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: and encountering one another in new ways for the very 298 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: first time. And along with this, not only do you 299 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 1: just have generally women entering the public sphere, but you 300 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: also have the rise of department stores, this whole consumer 301 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: culture that would get wealthy women out of their homes 302 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: to go shopping. But also you have female clerks who 303 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: would be working at the department stores and other jobs 304 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: being open, those low level clerical jobs being open more 305 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: and more to women. And so meanwhile you have mashing 306 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 1: sort of being placed on the more benign and of 307 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: the sexual assault spectrum at the time because it was 308 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: less criticized and say, underage sex and coercive seduction, but 309 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: it nonetheless received national press attention right as can be 310 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: seen in the nineteen o six Chicago Tribune headline what 311 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: can be done to rid the Palmer House block of mashers? 312 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: And I mean this was, this was There was a 313 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 1: lot of editorial space dedicated to drawing attention to these, 314 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: you know, men who stood on street corners and hollered 315 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: at women and made it difficult for them to enter 316 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: and exit their buildings. Well in women's magazines also started 317 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: advising lady readers to avoid eye contact with men on 318 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: the street and from doing anything to call attention to themselves, 319 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: which also sounds awfully familiar to advice that we still 320 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,479 Speaker 1: here as women today. Um. And there was a nineteen 321 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: o nine an article in the New York Times um 322 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: supposedly written by a working girl from Detroit, or maybe 323 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: it was a letter to the editor, um, and it 324 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: noted how she figured out that the blank looks on 325 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: women's faces on the subways were there quote armor against 326 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: the offensive stairs of the New York masher I actually 327 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: out loud when I read that, said, oh yeah, oh yeah, 328 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: oh yeah, Because don't you don't you feel your face 329 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: go dead? Well, you kind of do put on your 330 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: armor sometimes when you when you know you're about to 331 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: go into a public space. I do it any time. 332 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: I'd start as soon as I exit my driveway, when 333 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: I'm jogging and hit the main thoroughfare, it's sort of like, 334 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: all right, here we go. And I mean, I'm going 335 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: to be completely honest here and say that I'm not 336 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: putting on my dead face because I think I might 337 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: encounter some annoying women on the train, or some annoying 338 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: women at the mall or wherever. I'm putting on my 339 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: dead face because I know that if I make eye 340 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: contact with a man in a confined space, whether that's 341 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: on a train, in an elevator or whatever, I'm opening 342 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: myself up to entering into an interaction that I might 343 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: not want to be a part of. Yeah, And we 344 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 1: talked about how there was that Guardian article we saw 345 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: that said women have been fighting against street harassment since 346 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies with the Reclaimed the Night movement, but 347 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: women really started hollying back in the United states, at 348 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 1: least in the nineteen tens. And we're going to talk 349 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 1: about some of the ways that they started fighting back 350 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: against the matcher, smashing the masher when we come right 351 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: back from a quick break, and now back to the show. 352 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: So picking up in the nineteen tens, when women start 353 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: hollowing back, as Kristen said, um, they really were not 354 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,959 Speaker 1: going to stand for these distasteful mashers on the street anymore, 355 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: and they took matters into their own hands. Initially, however, 356 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: the press had enlisted men to help protect women, but 357 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: women were like, no, listen, I'm busy fighting for the 358 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: vote and fighting for equal space and society, and I 359 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: want my greater mobility. I want my access to work 360 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: and leisure activities. I'm not going to let men interfere 361 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: with my ability to give from point A to point B. 362 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 1: And so I'm going to take boxing classes. I'm going 363 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: to take self defense classes, and as evidence by a 364 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: photo that I found of a woman poking a man 365 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 1: with her hatpin, I'm gonna learn how to defend myself 366 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: in general. Yeah. In nineteen ten, the Women's Equal Suffrage 367 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: Association sought to confront mashers or male flirts or as 368 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: they called them obnoxious all glows, and they wanted to 369 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: appoint special agents as female policemen to patrol for mashers. 370 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: And this was actually how some of the very first 371 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: female police officers were hired in the US. I didn't 372 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: know that. That's when my brain exploded, Carol, including one 373 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: here in Atlanta. Yeah, but it was all because women 374 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: really wanted other women to help guide them through the 375 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: streets and keep their eyes peeled for the mashers. But 376 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: in the meantime, a number of women began taking up 377 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: exercise because this was also the early days of physical 378 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: exercise becoming part of you know, the the healthy person's regimen. 379 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: But some women also took boxing lessons to protect themselves 380 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:42,120 Speaker 1: against mashers. One Mrs Frank Gilbert in Cleveland took boxing 381 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: lessons and ended up clocking a streetcar masher, and she 382 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: told the press that she wanted to form a self 383 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: defense quote Society for the Suppression and Annihilation of mashers. 384 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: Don't mess with Mrs Frank Gilbert. She's probably met because 385 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: no one even knows her first name. Em Well. And then, 386 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: speaking again of hat pins, we get other stories of 387 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: women and girls actively defending themselves against mashers. And these 388 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: really were pressed darlings. These stories. People loved reading about them. 389 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 1: And what was so great and what I think we 390 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: need more of today if we're continuing themes today. The 391 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 1: fact that the tone was respectful, it was admiring, it 392 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 1: was supportive, that the general overall theme of these stories 393 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, good for you. Women. Don't take that 394 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: awful mashing from those awful mashes on the street corner. 395 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 1: You need to defend yourself. And by y around three 396 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 1: hundred female police officers had been hired around the country 397 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 1: at larger municipal police forces, specifically to deal with this 398 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: masher problem, which makes me realize that we have not 399 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: done a podcast on women and police officers. But hey, 400 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: now we have our jumping off point for that. And 401 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: I mean, speaking of legal issues, women who were victims 402 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: of street harassment were strongly encouraged to prosecute their tormentors. 403 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,479 Speaker 1: There were a few brave souls who really stepped up 404 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: and said, no, I'm taking this guy to court, even 405 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: though it could mean dragging your good name through the mud, 406 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 1: even though people could perceive it as being some type 407 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 1: of scandal, or you sort of speaking out of your 408 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: feminine womanly turn um, there are just a lot of 409 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: women at this time saying, look, you guys, you won't 410 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: give me the vote. Well that was earlier, but I mean, 411 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 1: I'm not going to stand up for this stuff anymore. Well, 412 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: it was especially radical for black women to prosecute men 413 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: in court as well, because up to this point, I 414 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: mean and still with this too. And we talked about 415 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: this in our episode on the history of a rape 416 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: in the United States, how all of the focus on 417 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 1: mashers was more concerned and it really exclusively concerned over 418 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,239 Speaker 1: the safety of white women on the streets, because this 419 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: is when we have the prevailing idea that, well, sexual 420 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: assault can't really happen to black women because they're hyper 421 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: sexualized to begin with. And you also still have, you know, 422 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: the construct of the black man as the violent rapists 423 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: targeting white women. But there was a lot of conversation 424 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 1: around street harassment in um, particularly in black newspapers, of 425 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: women talking to other women about this, and so by 426 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: the twenties you do start to see more black women 427 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: too getting more directly involved in this because can you 428 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: imagine at the time being a black woman bringing a charge, 429 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: a master charge against a white man that would have been. 430 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure that would have been scandalizing for 431 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: some people. But then after women get the vote with 432 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: the nineteenth Amendment in and with the end of World 433 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 1: War One, we see the anti masher movement died down. 434 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it really reached this fever pitch and then 435 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: fay ned's away as if it never happened. Almost. Yeah, 436 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: but it's I mean, the context of it fading away 437 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: is sort of ikey, because you you lose that whole 438 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: idea of chivalrous masculinity and men enlisting men to help 439 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: protect women from guys like that to the assertion of 440 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: a more aggressive ideal of manhood. Around the same time 441 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: that female flirtation becomes more popular and popularly depicted by 442 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: actresses on screen light Clara Bow and so you get 443 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: this sentiment, this this prevailing notion that things like cat 444 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: calling and street harassment are almost just more comical and 445 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: normalized because hey, they want to flirt with me. Yeah. 446 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,719 Speaker 1: It's almost the other side of the coin of we 447 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: have the the emergence of the new woman, we have 448 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: sexuality starting to kind of become slightly more uh normalized 449 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: in terms of women expressing it as well as men. 450 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,959 Speaker 1: And so with that though, it is that idea of 451 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 1: well you want this, don't you. So here you go like, 452 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: why why would it be strange at all for me 453 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: to comment on your body? If you're wearing clothes that 454 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: are more revealing than ever before, and if you're wearing 455 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: makeup like an actress on the screen and you are 456 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: actively flirting with men, well then why are you Why 457 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: don't you want to be talked to and yelled out 458 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: on the street? And a still Friedman sums up this 459 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: this transition pretty well. Uh. In Redefining rape, she writes, 460 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: After the nineteen twenties, the negotiation of urban space for 461 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: the purposes of wage earning, shopping, or flirtation increasingly took 462 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: the form of individual resistance rather than a social movement. 463 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: For a short period, however, the revolt against the masher 464 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: provided a political response to sexual vulnerability. Tributes to self 465 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: defense suffer just visions of police authority, the willingness of 466 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,479 Speaker 1: black women to report white men to authorities, and the 467 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: reactions of black men all contested white men's sexual entitlements. 468 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: And I mean, I think that goes back to what 469 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: I was saying about how great it was that newspapers 470 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: back then we're cheering women on for taking these men on. 471 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: I mean, that's on the one hand, women, you shouldn't 472 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: have to defend yourselves against these men, it shouldn't be happening. 473 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: But the fact that they are being vocal and active, 474 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: physically active about standing up to these guys and ended 475 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: up being cheered on for it, I mean, I think 476 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: that's an amazing thing. Well, and it's just so incredible 477 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: to think and mind boggling to think about the fact 478 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: that we've been literally fighting for freedom in a public 479 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: space for a century plus now, since we've been in 480 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: a public space exactly. And so the question then is 481 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: why why now this sort of of twenty one century 482 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: antimash or movement revival UM. I think a lot of 483 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: it has to do with feminism and technology, kind of 484 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: the the perfect intersection of those two things, because if 485 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: you look in the nineteen seventies, Second Way feminists absolutely 486 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: focused on street harassment. They started the Reclaim the Night 487 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: also known as Take Back the Night initiatives UM, which 488 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: again you have the focus on street harassment as more 489 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: women entering the public and male dominated spaces of women, 490 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: you know, sort of the revived idea of hey, we 491 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: can go get jobs perhaps, um. But then again it 492 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 1: sort of dies down a bit until two thousand five 493 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: when Emily May starts hollow Back, which really started, I mean, 494 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: an incredible movement. Yeah. And this is it's such a 495 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: product of its time in terms of being a digital thing. 496 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: And you know, you go back to women who are 497 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: taking boxing classes at the turn of the twentieth century 498 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: and saying I'm not going to put up with this. 499 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: I'm gonna learn how to defend myself. And then you 500 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: fast forward to the two thousands and you have women 501 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: who are actually snapping cell phone pictures of the guys 502 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: who are verbally attacking them, or, in the case of 503 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: the woman who inspired Hollyback efforts, she snapped a cell 504 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: phone picture of a guy who was publicly masturbating while 505 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: staring at her, which she was then able to use 506 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: successfully in his prosecution. Yeah. Because while while cat calling 507 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 1: is not illegal in New York City, it is in 508 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: fact illegal to masturbate in public just f y I um. 509 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: But by taking on street harassment from the social media approach, 510 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: it has empowered men and women to identify and call 511 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: out their harassers. And Emily may has talked before about 512 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: how um the idea evolved to not just from uh, 513 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: that initial cell phone photo, but also in conversations with 514 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: guy friends of hers about the experience of walking around 515 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: and one of them commenting, like, you walked down a 516 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: completely different metaphorically speaking sidewalk than I do, just like 517 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: they hadn't even realized before that experience of what street 518 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: harassment feels like. And I think that's why a lot 519 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: of times, in response to these conversations, the knee jerk 520 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: deflection is it's just a compliment. Why are you victimizing yourself? 521 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: But the fact that it typically happens when you are 522 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: isolated or possibly with other women. I don't think I've 523 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: ever gotten yelled at when I've been with a male 524 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: friend or a boyfriend, or a brother or a father whoever. Um, 525 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: it's very specific in that kind of approach. It's intended 526 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,239 Speaker 1: to make you feel vulnerable, right exactly, And I mean 527 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: in terms of perspective. There was the one kind of 528 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: social experiment that we read about where a woman dressed 529 00:32:58,280 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: up like a man and a man dressed up like 530 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: a woman, and they sent them on their way through 531 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: the streets, and the woman felt reported that she felt 532 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: such relief at being invisible for once, at just being 533 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: able to freaking walk down the street from point A 534 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: to point B. Whereas the man who was wearing fake 535 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: breasts and everything, I mean, he was dressed as a woman. Uh, 536 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: found himself putting on his jacket to avoid to try 537 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: to deflect people staring at him at his fake chest, 538 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: um and wishing that he had more clothes on because 539 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: he just felt so gross being stared up. Well, and 540 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: we heard from a gay guy not too long ago 541 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: who wrote into us um, because he has long hair, 542 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: he tends to wear tighter jeans, and I believe we 543 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: even read the letter on a podcast episode a while back. 544 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: But he was walking down the street going home or 545 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: going somewhere and was aggressively yelled at by a guy 546 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,479 Speaker 1: in a car who mistook him for a woman. And 547 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: he said that he was so it was so terrifying 548 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: because the person followed him for a little while and 549 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: he finally turned around and yelled back at him. But 550 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: he had never experienced that before. And the following I 551 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: don't know if you've experienced this before, Caroline, but um, 552 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: I'll never forget being in Bushwick in New York once 553 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: with a girlfriend of mine and we were walking somewhere 554 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: and we were followed for a few blocks and it 555 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 1: was terrifying. We eventually ducked into a bar we happened 556 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,720 Speaker 1: to run across just to be around other people. Um, 557 00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: And and he talked about this guy, this listener in 558 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: his letter talked about how afterwards he was just so confused, 559 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 1: and I was wondering what he had done to bring 560 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 1: it on himself. And the answer is nothing, because this 561 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: is an issue that has been going on in this 562 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: fight for safety and public spaces for so long. Yeah, 563 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: And I mean that's where that's where I mean what 564 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: you just said, where it's evident that this is a 565 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,879 Speaker 1: problem of individuals. Certainly, it's a problem of the men 566 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: who choose to harass people, men and women on the street. 567 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: But it's also part of such a huge cultural issue 568 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: of of women's not only women's safety and and men's 569 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: safety too, but of allowing people to just exist, allowing 570 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: people to go about their business in public. Well, and 571 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,359 Speaker 1: we need to I want to re emphasize as well, 572 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: the fact that a lot of these conversations are focused 573 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: on usually cis gender women, but trans women are at 574 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: much heightened levels, not only for being at risk of 575 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: street harassment, but outright violence and attack in public spaces 576 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: as well. And that's something that you know needs to 577 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: be addressed too. And it's not just something that's happening 578 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: in the US, even though UM, a New Zealand camera 579 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: crew conducted the same kind of social experiment as the 580 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: Hollyback video where they had a model, an actual model, 581 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: go out on the street and walk around in a 582 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: busy place and she got a cat called zero times. 583 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: She got stopped once for someone like asking her for directions, 584 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 1: and so it raised a question of, well, what's going on, 585 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: what's the difference here? Um? And and I don't I mean, honestly, 586 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: I don't know the answer, but I mean it's certainly 587 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: been an issue to the point that there are now 588 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: women only subway cars and taxi services in places like 589 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 1: India and Japan in order to shield women from street harassment. 590 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: But I mean, something like that causes its own problems, 591 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,919 Speaker 1: because okay, great, you're in your woman only train car, 592 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: You're you're not gonna get groped, you're not gonna get harassed. 593 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: But suddenly, um, that separates the sexes completely. So a 594 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: man who would be harassing someone when he does see 595 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: a woman, it's an even rare occurrence and he's even 596 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: more likely to harass. Yeah, I mean, it's it's definitely 597 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 1: been a huge problem in Indian there's a lot of 598 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: grassroots activism going on there to tackle it as well 599 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: as just the issue of sexual harassment more generally speaking. UM, 600 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,280 Speaker 1: I thought it was really interesting that in two thousand eleven, 601 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: Bangladesh officially did away with the eve teasing euphemism cat 602 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 1: calling um was known by and probably still is euphemistically 603 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,359 Speaker 1: known as eve teasing or should a street harassments euphemistically 604 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: known as eve teasing, and uh, the courts did away 605 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: with that in Bangladesh to categorize it as a form 606 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: of sexual harassment. And also in Nepal there was a 607 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: law pass allowing police to immediately arrest someone suspected of 608 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: street harassment without a warrant. So clearly this is I mean, 609 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: it's not just something going on in American streets. This 610 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: is a global conversation that's happening. Um. And there are 611 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:59,760 Speaker 1: questions too in the US about laws regarding public harassment, 612 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: because the thing about street harassment is that the kinds 613 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: of horror, horrifying and sexually forward things that are yelled 614 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: at women. If you say that in a public space, 615 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 1: if you say that at a workplace or a school, 616 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: they're already laws in place to protect people against that, 617 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: but not so on the streets. Yeah, and so this 618 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: gets into the issue of what's called fighting words. Legally, 619 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: and in our country, we have protections against fighting words, 620 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,240 Speaker 1: things like yelling fire in a theater or saying something 621 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: to another human being that will create an unsafe situation. 622 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: They actually got their start as a way to essentially 623 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,359 Speaker 1: prevent guys from challenging each other to duels and then 624 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: killing each other over an argument. And so while that 625 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: legally has trickled down through the years, no such protection 626 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: exists to women or men when it comes to street 627 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: harassment and the language used when people do harass people 628 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,800 Speaker 1: on the street. Yeah. I mean, I have a feeling 629 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: that that's probably never going to happen, that the fighting 630 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,280 Speaker 1: words action will be amended to that, but it definitely 631 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: changes the way I thought about how it operates in 632 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: a public space. Um. But the thing about it is, Caroline, 633 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: there are plenty of people who aren't men who also say, oh, 634 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: my gosh, this is not harassment. It's still a compliment. 635 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: And before we close out the podcast, we do need 636 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: to address that, um, there was a woman or is 637 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: a woman. She's not dead. Derrie Lawaq, who kind of 638 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: became the poster gal of pro cat collars when she 639 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 1: wrote an op ed in The New York Post that 640 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: went viral for kind of all the wrong reasons because 641 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,919 Speaker 1: it was headlined, hey, ladies, cat calls are flattering, deal 642 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: with it. And I'm not going to waste my breath 643 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,800 Speaker 1: going over um all of her reasons why she enjoyed 644 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 1: being cat called. Um. But there was a study we 645 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 1: found from the journal Sexuality and Culture from two thousand 646 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: and ten looking closer at the context of cat calling 647 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 1: to dig into that question of well is it complimentary, 648 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,319 Speaker 1: because you do find, like in pretty much anything you 649 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,399 Speaker 1: read about it, there's always a subset of people saying, well, 650 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: I kinda like it. I gotta like hearing that I 651 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: look good. Yeah, And there were, for instance, there were 652 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: a lot of comments under the video of the actors 653 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: who was walking through New York. There were a lot 654 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: of comments, um, calling her a lot of dirty words 655 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: and saying it's women like this that are the reason 656 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: that men are afraid to come talk to me and 657 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: tell me I look nice, Like, what's wrong with a 658 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: man uh coming in saying hello and giving me his 659 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 1: number whatever, And it's like, whoa. These are different things, 660 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: but it is important to discuss context well. And also, Caroline, 661 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: there's the risk of forgetting to smile some days if 662 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 1: people don't tell you too. You know, I forget all 663 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: the time. It's not until I walk into work and 664 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,280 Speaker 1: Kristin yells at me from across the room to smile 665 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: that I even remember. Yeah, I'm just trying to compliment 666 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 1: you girl, I know. But yeah. So this this study 667 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 1: that Kristen is talking about found that lower contextual threat 668 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:23,279 Speaker 1: levels do have a bearing on how women perceive the 669 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 1: cat calling, the harassment, the the eye contact, whatever it 670 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: may be. Yeah, because there's this whole thing of harassment 671 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: is in the eye of the beholder in terms to 672 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:41,320 Speaker 1: how um threatening it feels. And so this study conducted 673 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 1: a lot of experiments and highlighted perception variables. In other words, 674 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:52,399 Speaker 1: the key things it's sort of influence that threat level, 675 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: and that includes age, marital status, sex, attractiveness, familiarity status, 676 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,680 Speaker 1: job status of the perpetrator, demograph effect, sexual identity and 677 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,919 Speaker 1: attitudes toward women of the observer. So that's also looking 678 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 1: at how we as outsiders perceived the people watching the 679 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 1: video of the woman walking through New York for ten hours, 680 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: how we perceive that and whether that is or is 681 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 1: not harassment. And it really focused in on the attractiveness 682 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: and age of the harasser, as well as being alone 683 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,439 Speaker 1: or with friends as the major context factors for how 684 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 1: fearful a woman was at the prospect of these different 685 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: street harassments scenarios they were presented with, because there is 686 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 1: a sticky question of well, if he's young and hot, 687 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,280 Speaker 1: maybe maybe it's maybe it is more of a compliment 688 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 1: than harassment. Yeah, but I mean when you when you 689 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 1: mix and match all of these perception variables, I mean, 690 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 1: that has a lot to do with it. I don't 691 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 1: care how hot the guy is, if he is like physically, 692 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 1: if he is following me down the street yelling at me, 693 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,600 Speaker 1: I mean, that's still going to be a high threat 694 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,319 Speaker 1: situation that I'm going to perceive. You know, Yes, there 695 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: are so many different variables to take into account, but 696 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,880 Speaker 1: um and and I don't discount that a lot of 697 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: people will say, well, it's not as threatening if he's 698 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: good looking, or if he's rich, or if he's driving 699 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 1: a Bentley or whatever, um as opposed to if he's 700 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: a guy sitting sitting on a stoop outside of his apartment. 701 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: But there's still I don't know, there's just so many 702 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:31,239 Speaker 1: contextual threat things to take into account. Because well, that 703 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 1: was the thing too in all of these studies that 704 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:39,879 Speaker 1: they conducted, even when sort of playing around with those 705 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: different variables, it never found like nothing completely mitigated all 706 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 1: the negative impacts on the recipient in terms of feelings 707 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: of self objectification, feelings of safety. There was never a 708 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 1: perfect scenario when it was like a guy saying something 709 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 1: lud or threatened or inappropriate and the recipient was like, 710 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,400 Speaker 1: and I feel great, and I feel like a strong 711 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,880 Speaker 1: and powerful person walking through the streets. There is there's 712 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 1: no no way you slice and dice it. Does it 713 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:19,080 Speaker 1: not have a negative outcome, even if it's a small one. Yeah, exactly. 714 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,240 Speaker 1: And also as I was reading all of this too 715 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 1: and thinking about the kinds of especially the more lewd 716 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,239 Speaker 1: things that are said on or even just the lewd 717 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:36,040 Speaker 1: implications that are made in very benign statements UM and 718 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,760 Speaker 1: even just in the looks, you can just be looked 719 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,560 Speaker 1: up and down and feel as violated as you would 720 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: if a guy propositioned you for sex right then and there. 721 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 1: And I feel like it says also so much about 722 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: in many ways, how sexually backward our society is when 723 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:59,360 Speaker 1: this kind of sexual communication in a public space is 724 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:04,680 Speaker 1: often deemed complimentary and benign, whereas we still can't get 725 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: sexual consent in communication between two people in private spaces, 726 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,480 Speaker 1: like straightened out, Like why is that? I mean, there's 727 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,040 Speaker 1: so many there's so many layers. And also I feel 728 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,760 Speaker 1: like too, the whole thing of well, if he's attractive, 729 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,520 Speaker 1: then it's a compliment also leads to the question of well, 730 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,719 Speaker 1: why is being called hot by a stranger like the 731 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 1: the best most validating thing for a woman, you know? 732 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: Like why is being called beautiful the the most coveted 733 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,840 Speaker 1: kind of compliment a woman can receive in our society 734 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,320 Speaker 1: to their lots of layers to this, So, I mean, yeah, exactly, 735 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 1: And and I think that the historical context of all 736 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:49,879 Speaker 1: this is so important to take into account, especially if 737 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:54,960 Speaker 1: you do argue that cat calling is totally benign because 738 00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:00,799 Speaker 1: it's actually not well, because it's not about compliments. It's 739 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,080 Speaker 1: about power. It's all about power in the same way 740 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,320 Speaker 1: that rape is not about sex. It's about power. And 741 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,919 Speaker 1: and am I saying that all men who tell women 742 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,319 Speaker 1: to smile are rapists? No, but it's still it is 743 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: a fact of It's an issue of power. Yeah, Because 744 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,640 Speaker 1: I have a hard time thinking that the men who 745 00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,920 Speaker 1: yelled at me to smile, we're yelling at other men 746 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 1: to smile. I have a hard time believing that it 747 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 1: was just like, gosh, darn it, you guys. I just 748 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,239 Speaker 1: want the world to be a happier place at this train, 749 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,000 Speaker 1: say more smiles. Yeah. And and so I mean when 750 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,440 Speaker 1: you when you look at that, look at things in 751 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 1: the context of that, I think that says a lot too. 752 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:46,279 Speaker 1: And so it's really important to not just have this 753 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 1: conversation with adults and fellow people in the world who 754 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 1: get cat called and harassed on the streets in public 755 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,960 Speaker 1: against their will. I think it's important to talk to 756 00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 1: kids about these issues too, maybe not going to so 757 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:04,840 Speaker 1: many gruci details, perhaps, but to discuss issues of consent 758 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,000 Speaker 1: and what is and is not appropriate. And we want 759 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,839 Speaker 1: to acknowledge to you before we close out that this 760 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,719 Speaker 1: is we're talking about a very slim minority of men 761 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,520 Speaker 1: who are doing this, But the reaction of that slim 762 00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:24,640 Speaker 1: minority behavior to the you know, the majority's reaction to 763 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,880 Speaker 1: it says a lot. Yeah. But now we want to 764 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,200 Speaker 1: hear from our listeners because I have a feeling that 765 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,279 Speaker 1: lots of people have lots of things to say, and 766 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,600 Speaker 1: we want to hear from everybody on this because everybody 767 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,440 Speaker 1: has a stake in this, because at some point we 768 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:41,680 Speaker 1: probably all exist in public spaces. So mom Stuff at 769 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,120 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com is our email address. You 770 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,200 Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast and messages 771 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,400 Speaker 1: on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages to 772 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 1: share with you right now. So I've got a letter 773 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:58,799 Speaker 1: here from someone who would like to remain anonymous about 774 00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:03,400 Speaker 1: our episode on Lady Lawyers, and she writes, as a 775 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,360 Speaker 1: practicing lawyer, I can tell you that shaming does happen 776 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,600 Speaker 1: in court. Early in my career, I was at a 777 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,560 Speaker 1: federal court hearing with senior Partners, and because I had 778 00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,719 Speaker 1: forgotten to drop off my dry cleaning after work, I 779 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,680 Speaker 1: had to wear a royal blue pinstripe skirt suit to court. 780 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,840 Speaker 1: I was the only person not wearing black or gray, 781 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,680 Speaker 1: while not a single one of the male partners who 782 00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 1: I worked with ever made a comment about it. At 783 00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,839 Speaker 1: the end of the hearing, a thirty to forty five 784 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,680 Speaker 1: year old male Department of Justice attorney walked around to 785 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,440 Speaker 1: our table to the opposite side where I was standing, 786 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,440 Speaker 1: came up, stood right behind me, leaned in and whispered 787 00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,640 Speaker 1: nice suit. Needless to say, I vowed that I would 788 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,640 Speaker 1: never again wear anything but black or gray to court. 789 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,000 Speaker 1: While I still wouldn't wear a royal blue suit to 790 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,080 Speaker 1: federal court. There is a lot of theater involved in 791 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:53,960 Speaker 1: going to court, and part of the show is playing 792 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,920 Speaker 1: to your audience. I have friends who single male colleagues 793 00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,960 Speaker 1: put on wedding bands before trials because studies have shown 794 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,440 Speaker 1: that juries trust married men more than single men. Like 795 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,080 Speaker 1: Michael J. Fox's character on The Good Wife, I think 796 00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:11,000 Speaker 1: most lawyers would gladly alter their appearance or exaggerate a 797 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,040 Speaker 1: disability to sway the jury or the judge in their 798 00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,080 Speaker 1: client's favor. In response to your question about how big 799 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,400 Speaker 1: this problem is, it isn't a big problem because, unlike TV, 800 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,880 Speaker 1: most lawyers and don't go to court so often. So 801 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,880 Speaker 1: thanks for that insight. So I have a letter here 802 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 1: from Lauren uh in response to our Lady lawyer's dress 803 00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,720 Speaker 1: code episode, and she might not agree with the author 804 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,560 Speaker 1: of that last letter, Christian in terms of staying true 805 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,840 Speaker 1: to just black and gray. She says, as a lady lawyer, 806 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:42,880 Speaker 1: I am very conscious of what I wear to court. 807 00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,439 Speaker 1: I'm a Midwestern, middle class raised gal, but at thirty five, 808 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,120 Speaker 1: I became a named partner in a Boston law firm 809 00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,600 Speaker 1: through sheer, hard work and a few smarts. As unfortunate 810 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,520 Speaker 1: as it is, women in the courtroom do need to 811 00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:56,560 Speaker 1: think about what they wear and how they wear it, 812 00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:00,319 Speaker 1: much more than our male counterparts. However, this is not 813 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,760 Speaker 1: mean that women should shirk their individuality. Wear a skirt 814 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,120 Speaker 1: suit that hits just below the knee and a modest 815 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,720 Speaker 1: button up shirt, but make the suit read. I've found 816 00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,279 Speaker 1: that so long as the length and neckline are appropriate 817 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,080 Speaker 1: and what comes from your mouth is intelligent, judges and 818 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,280 Speaker 1: fellow lawyers will respect you. I never wear black suits, 819 00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,759 Speaker 1: and I always wear stiletto heels. Ask anyone in my 820 00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:23,799 Speaker 1: court house and they will tell you I am a 821 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:28,080 Speaker 1: force to be reckoned. With lots of love to you, ladies, 822 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,239 Speaker 1: and if any lady lawyer or hopeful lady lawyers in 823 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,800 Speaker 1: the Boston area. I would love to help her succeed 824 00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,480 Speaker 1: in any way I can. So thank you, Lauren, and 825 00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,120 Speaker 1: thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom stuff at 826 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,880 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com is our email address and 827 00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:42,640 Speaker 1: for links to all of our social media as well 828 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,879 Speaker 1: as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this 829 00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,919 Speaker 1: one with links to our sources so you can read 830 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:52,400 Speaker 1: all about the history of Smashing the mashows. Head on 831 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:59,840 Speaker 1: over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for 832 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,320 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it 833 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:11,600 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com. M