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Speaker 1: Too Much Information is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello,

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Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Too Much Information, the show

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Speaker 1: that brings you the secret history and little known facts

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Speaker 1: behind your favorite music, movies, TV shows, and more. We

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Speaker 1: are your Rajas of research. My name is Jordan run

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Speaker 1: Tog and I'm Alex Heigel, and today we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about American pie Don McLean's eight minute and forty

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Speaker 1: two second epic which top the charts fifty years ago

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Speaker 1: this year. The song is a kaleidoscopic journey through the

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Speaker 1: best of the Boomer years, using the death of rock

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Speaker 1: pioneer Buddy Holly as a metaphor for the death of

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Speaker 1: a generation's innocence. McLean described the song in recent years

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Speaker 1: as quote a rock and roll dream sequence about in

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Speaker 1: America that was coming apart at the seams during the

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Speaker 1: tumultuous sixties, giving way to the cynicism of the seventies. Now.

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Speaker 1: It's a song that's earned a fair bit of scorn

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Speaker 1: over the years, some from my co host Alex Heigel

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Speaker 1: for essentially being the earth text of Boomer hagiography, but

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Speaker 1: its influence is undeniable. The recording industry of America and

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Speaker 1: the National Endowment of the Arts cited American Pie is

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Speaker 1: the fifth gradest song of the twentieth century, just under

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Speaker 1: Over the Rainbow, White Christmas, This Land Is Your Land,

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Speaker 1: and Respect by Otis Redding. So not bad company. The

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Speaker 1: historian Douglas Brinkley has described it as an essential Americana poem,

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Speaker 1: emanating wistful recollection blues, valentine, and youthful protest rolled into one.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about this track? I'm gonna bite

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Speaker 1: my tongue in half throughout the course of this. Why

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Speaker 1: you read off your cherished collection of pro American pie chestnuts?

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Speaker 1: I hate this song? What do you mean why it's

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Speaker 1: bad on every level? I don't know. I thought Margaritaville

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Speaker 1: was the nader of our working relationship. But this is God,

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Speaker 1: this is this is a new level. Well, I really

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Speaker 1: don't have a segue out of that. Um, So I'm

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Speaker 1: just gonna pretend that you didn't say all that, and

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Speaker 1: maybe I'll cut it, you know how. Well. The thing

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Speaker 1: that's so interesting to me about American Pie is that

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Speaker 1: it's such an evocative history lesson told through these allegories,

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Speaker 1: and it's one that's palatable for the masses. Uh, The

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Speaker 1: music critic for The Guardian, Alexis Petritis, has described American

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Speaker 1: Pie as quote the accessible farewell to the fifties and sixties.

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Speaker 1: Bob Dylan talked to the counterculture and dense, cryptic apocalyptic terms,

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Speaker 1: but Don McLean says similar ominous things in a pop

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Speaker 1: language that a mainstream listener could understand. The chorus is

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Speaker 1: so good that it lets you wallow in the confusion

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Speaker 1: and wistfulness of that moment and be comforted at the

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Speaker 1: same time. It's bubble gum Dylan, and I feel like

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Speaker 1: accessibility is an important word for Don McLean. His other

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Speaker 1: big hit is Vincent Parenthesis Story Story Night, his tribute

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Speaker 1: to Vincent van Gogh and artists. Don McLean was drawn

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Speaker 1: too because he felt that he was really one of

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Speaker 1: the most accessible painters. And this was due to his

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Speaker 1: deep well of pain. And I shudder to think what

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Speaker 1: you're about to say it I'm about to say, Like

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Speaker 1: Van Gogh, don McLean had a lot of pain in

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Speaker 1: his life. Ah. He classifies himself as quote a blue guy. Good. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is gonna be fun to edit together, as I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna try to cut your bits of bile out and

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Speaker 1: stitch my my Sonny Sonny over intellectualizing this song. I

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Speaker 1: just o, God, yeah, I don't know, man, it just

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Speaker 1: drives me. I mean, did you not hear this song? Thing? Enough? Well,

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Speaker 1: I actually here, I'm probably doing this in a certain

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Speaker 1: ways an apology to my father, who, when I was

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Speaker 1: a toddler, sat through an entire Don McClean concert that

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Speaker 1: he was like doing it some fair and right as

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Speaker 1: he was about to finally launch into American Pie a

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Speaker 1: k A. The only song that everyone sat through the

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Speaker 1: whole concert for, I started to scream and cry and

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Speaker 1: they had to take me out of there, And so

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Speaker 1: he missed hearing the song and had good every time

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Speaker 1: I hear that song. So now I I have. I

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Speaker 1: have this probably like a lot of the boomers who

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Speaker 1: hear it, this deep well of regret and sadness that

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Speaker 1: I think about. The only thing my dad ever did

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Speaker 1: was when the song came on, he would recite to

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Speaker 1: me the body version of it that he and his

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Speaker 1: hesher friends came up with. Well. Speaking of the various interpretations,

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Speaker 1: including the one by your father, of this song, Don

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Speaker 1: McClain has been pretty tight lipped about the precise meaning

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Speaker 1: of his eight hundred and sixty eight words by my account.

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Speaker 1: But there's a new documentary on the horizon for Paramount

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Speaker 1: Plus on July nineteenth, in which he claims to reveal

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Speaker 1: a lot more about the creation of the song, which

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Speaker 1: is interesting to one of us. But until then, this

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Speaker 1: episode will be the final word on the history and

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Speaker 1: interpretation of American Pie. So keep listening to learn about

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Speaker 1: the secret choir of celebrities that sang on the chorus,

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Speaker 1: the truly insane number of edits it took to stitch

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Speaker 1: this eight and a half minute epic together, the non

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Speaker 1: Buddy Holly rock pioneer who inspired Don McLean to write it,

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Speaker 1: and why Buddy Holly took that fatal flight in the

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Speaker 1: first place. Plus we'll do our interpretation of the dense

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Speaker 1: lyrical poetry. So without further ado, here is everything you

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Speaker 1: didn't know about Don McLean's American Pie. Okay, you're really

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Speaker 1: gonna start this off for me? Yeah, okay. American Pie

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Speaker 1: has its roots in Don McLean's childhood, spent in the

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Speaker 1: New York City suburb of New Rochelle in the nineteen fifties.

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Speaker 1: It is a very cute little town in affluent Westchester County,

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Speaker 1: immortalized in your favorite era of pop culture, as the

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Speaker 1: setting of the Dick Van Dyke Show. And you know,

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Speaker 1: given the rosy glow of this era that American pie

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Speaker 1: is filtered through, it's easy to assume that Don had

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Speaker 1: enjoyed the quintessential fifties American upbringing in this upper middle

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Speaker 1: class town. But only that was not the case. He

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Speaker 1: has said that he hated growing up there because the

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Speaker 1: citizens were snobbish and judgmental about everything. Quote, if you

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Speaker 1: didn't drive the right car, if you didn't have enough money,

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Speaker 1: if you didn't wear the right shoes. I hated those.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that wouldn't dear him? Do you? Class

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Speaker 1: warrior attitude now, all right? And then he became everything

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Speaker 1: he hated. Uh McLean first got into music when he

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Speaker 1: became bedridden due to asthma as a boy, when he

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Speaker 1: started pouring over the music of Frank Sinatra and the

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Speaker 1: true starring figure of this song, Buddy Holly Um. There's

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Speaker 1: an entire listical waiting to be written about musicians who

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Speaker 1: are bedridden as a formative era of their music. Probably

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Speaker 1: your favorite Ringo Starr his appendix burst as a little boy,

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Speaker 1: spend a here in the hospital where in a truly

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Speaker 1: grim Dickenzie in Turns staff arranged a makeshift band in

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Speaker 1: the children's Is it good for their because I spent

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Speaker 1: all the time in bed? H Yeah. Ringo's first drumming

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Speaker 1: was done in a hospital cabinet with a makeshift cotton bobbin.

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Speaker 1: Cat Stevens, who wrote a bunch of his songs while

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Speaker 1: recovering from tuberculosis in the sixties. I'm pretty sure Lindsay

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Speaker 1: Buckingham developed his fingerstyle while laid up in a hospital bed,

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Speaker 1: and Joni Mitchell did that too, was not necessarily while

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Speaker 1: she was suffering from it, but I'm not sure if

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Speaker 1: she took it up as a form of therapy. But

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Speaker 1: that's where she gets all her weird chords from um,

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Speaker 1: which I think also we talked about with New Young Yea. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I think of all the great music you

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Speaker 1: have to chalk up to bedridden children. Think of how

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Speaker 1: much good music we've lost thanks to Netflix. Now kids

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Speaker 1: can just sit in bed and watch minions and not

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Speaker 1: learn how to write American pie. I had consider that

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Speaker 1: a blessing. Apparently he took opera lessons with what his

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Speaker 1: one octave range voice. I taught himself out play the

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Speaker 1: acoustic guitar at the age of fourteen. Probably, I'm guessing

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Speaker 1: because of his age, is a correlayer of the folk boom.

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Speaker 1: He spent much of the sixties playing the Greenwich Village

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Speaker 1: folk scene and coffee shops, where Pete Seeger and the

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Speaker 1: rest of his band The Weavers tooked on under their

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Speaker 1: wing mentored him. But despite that co sign um and

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Speaker 1: in what is the second kind of instance of a

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Speaker 1: pathetically low selling debut record we've talked about in a week,

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Speaker 1: Don named his debut album Tapestry, came out in nineteen seventy,

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Speaker 1: a year before another little record you might know, Carol

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Speaker 1: King's Tapestry, one of the best selling records of all time.

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Speaker 1: Don McLean's album was rejected by a whopping seventy two

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Speaker 1: record labels before he was signed. His record includes Castles

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Speaker 1: in the Air and and I Love Her So, which

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Speaker 1: Elvis and Glenn Campbell recorded. Perry Como's version was nominated

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Speaker 1: for a Grammy. Jesus Uh title track Tapestry not the

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Speaker 1: Carol King's song. Here's a great example of Don McLean

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Speaker 1: being a piece of um. He says this song inspired

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Speaker 1: the creation of green Peace. UM which you made a

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Speaker 1: bullet point in here, and I went on to Greenpeace

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Speaker 1: their site. He's not mentioned once, although it is on

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Speaker 1: his site, so that's his version of it. Talked about

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Speaker 1: in the interviews, the number of time it was about

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Speaker 1: being People keep interviewing him for some reason. This is

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Speaker 1: from green Pieces site. In a small group of activists

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Speaker 1: set sail to the am Chitka Island off of Alaska

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Speaker 1: to try and stop a US nuclear weapons test. The

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Speaker 1: money for the mission was raised with a concert starring

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Speaker 1: James Taylor, Joni Mitchell, and phil Oaks phill Ox, phil Oaks.

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Speaker 1: Their fishing boat was called the Green Piece. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how Don got his name in there, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I just want to fact check him. But this album

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Speaker 1: sold poorly. He went into the studio to record his

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Speaker 1: follow up and one label executive if allegedly told his producer,

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Speaker 1: look this McLean asked, was a no talent jerk. Your

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Speaker 1: budget is twenty five grand. If you can make it

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Speaker 1: for twenty grand, I'll split the other five with you.

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Speaker 1: The music industry. What a hell hole. The producer, a

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Speaker 1: man named Ed Freeman who we will get to later,

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Speaker 1: turned down this offer. Don was so broke that he

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Speaker 1: had a day job playing music for the public school

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Speaker 1: system in Stockbridge, Massachusetts, playing banjo for the children in kindergarten,

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Speaker 1: to which I say, suffer the little children. Uh Now,

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Speaker 1: many people credit, or in your case, blame, Buddy Holly

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Speaker 1: with the creation of American pie, but the spark was

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Speaker 1: provided by another early rock pioneer, Phil Everley of the

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Speaker 1: Everly Brothers. Now in, Don McLean was playing the Newport

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Speaker 1: Folk Festival, which is the legendary annual concert series where

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Speaker 1: Bob Dylan famously went electric four years earlier, and Don

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Speaker 1: ran into the Everly Brothers, who were also on the bill.

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Speaker 1: So Don went up to Phil Everley and did the

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Speaker 1: thing that I'm sure all famous people just love, where

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Speaker 1: they get approached by strangers who asked them about other celebrities,

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Speaker 1: their celebrity friends, not even their own stuff, but other

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Speaker 1: people they know right now and speaking to a z

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Speaker 1: Central earlier in two Don mc lean says he went

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Speaker 1: up to Phil Everley and started peppering him with questions

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Speaker 1: about his musical hero Buddy Holly, who he ran in

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Speaker 1: the same circles with in the fifties. Specifically, Don wanted

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Speaker 1: to know more about the way that Buddy died, and

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Speaker 1: he said, I know you knew Buddy Holly, and like

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Speaker 1: a kid. I was just like a kid, he said,

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Speaker 1: what happened? Can you tell me what happened? I wanted

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Speaker 1: to know more than just he got on the plane

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Speaker 1: and about his death. Well, yeah, okay, that's kind of

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Speaker 1: a weird. Yeah, I get that. UM and Phil relayed

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Speaker 1: some really heartbreakingly humanizing details about the plane crash that,

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Speaker 1: though over mythologized, did in fact change the course of

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Speaker 1: music history. The Day the Music Died very real thing.

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Speaker 1: And Phil Everley said in short that after weeks on

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Speaker 1: the road touring in a bus, Buddy Holly chartered a

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Speaker 1: plane to get to his next destination early so that

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Speaker 1: he could do some laundry. That's just like that breaks

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Speaker 1: my heart. Uh. And now we're gonna go back in

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Speaker 1: time a little bit and do a brief history lesson

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Speaker 1: on the death of Buddy Holly. Ritchie Vallens and JP

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Speaker 1: the Big Bapa richardson the famous Day the Music Died

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Speaker 1: February three. UM. In February nine, Buddy Holly was in

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Speaker 1: the midst of a winter dance party package tour through

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Speaker 1: the Midwest United States with fellow early Rocks figures Richie Vallens,

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Speaker 1: who made labomba hit and followed it up with the

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Speaker 1: immortal fifties ballad Donna and is probably best remembered by

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Speaker 1: a certain segment of the population for the Low Diamond

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Speaker 1: Phillips biopic. In the eighties, there was Jp the Big

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Speaker 1: Boppa Richardson, who's known chiefly for, outside of dying in

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Speaker 1: This Plane Crash, the pseudo novelty song Shantilly Lace, and

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Speaker 1: also on the tour was Dion and the Belmont's who

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Speaker 1: everyone forgets was there, who famously did Teenager in Love

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Speaker 1: run around to Great doop Icon and someone named Frankie

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Speaker 1: Sarto who was also there. I don't know who that is.

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Speaker 1: I love that putting walk hard when they're they're like

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Speaker 1: at the Teenage Talent Show, John c Riley is teenage

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Speaker 1: Dewey Cox off stage and they were watching the Big

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Speaker 1: Boppa do the phone stick like hello baby, this is

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Speaker 1: a big Boppa calling It cuts to them and they're

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Speaker 1: just also like stone face, like how are we going

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Speaker 1: to follow that? Again? There was less music back then,

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Speaker 1: so people coasted before grandfathered in just making garbage and

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Speaker 1: we don't talk about it enough because it's been enshrined.

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Speaker 1: My god, if these people heard like dubstep, their heads

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Speaker 1: would have exploded. Not because dubstep is good, but like,

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Speaker 1: at least it's interesting. I think I will say, though,

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Speaker 1: that they ground it out. This is impressed. These guys

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Speaker 1: are like black flag Man. Yes, the Winter Dance Party

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Speaker 1: tour was basically disaster. Even before the plane crash entered

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Speaker 1: the picture. The musicians dubbed it the Tour from Hell,

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Speaker 1: and they weren't kidding. In the grand tradition of d

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Speaker 1: i y gig in groups, there was zero consideration for

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Speaker 1: travel logistics. The gigs were daily and often hundreds of

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Speaker 1: miles apart, so the musicians were just pinballing through the Midwest,

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Speaker 1: often on rural two lane highways because the interstate had

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Speaker 1: been completed yet. The tour buses, which were essentially rejected

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Speaker 1: school buses, frequently broke down and they were unheeded. And

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Speaker 1: this is the West. In early February, when temperatures were

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Speaker 1: occasionally recorded at negative thirty five, it was so cold

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Speaker 1: in these busses that one musician came down with frostbite

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Speaker 1: and needed to be hospitalized, and the flu quickly spread

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Speaker 1: through their ranks. At the top things off, there were

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Speaker 1: no roadies. The musicians were expected to load and unload

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Speaker 1: their gear themselves, so by the time Buddy Holly arrived

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Speaker 1: at the Surf Ball Room in clear Lake, Iowa, on

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Speaker 1: February two, ninety nine to play what would be his

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Speaker 1: final gig, he was piste, and rather than face another

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Speaker 1: freezing eight hour bus ride that night after the show,

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Speaker 1: Buddy charted a private plane to fly himself and his

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Speaker 1: band up to Fargo, North Dakota for the next day's

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Speaker 1: gig for the princely sum of thirty six dollars a

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Speaker 1: person or a three fifty dollars in today's money. This

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Speaker 1: flight wasn't cheap, and he wanted to get to Fargo

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Speaker 1: because this would give him some extra time, as I said,

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Speaker 1: to do some laundry and to get some much needed

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Speaker 1: rest that night. So we hired a tiny, single engine

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Speaker 1: Beechcraft Bonanza, which only seated three passengers in the pilot,

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Speaker 1: and contrary to urban legend, the plane was not called

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Speaker 1: American Pie and had no name at all. Don mc

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Speaker 1: lean made the title up, and also, contrary to popular belief,

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Speaker 1: Buddy Holly did not hire the plane just for headliners only,

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Speaker 1: as he says in the La Bamba movie, it was

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Speaker 1: initially just for the two members of his band, Tommy

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Speaker 1: als Up and future country legend Wayland Jennings, who played

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Speaker 1: bass for Buddy on this tour. And there are numerous

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Speaker 1: versions of how the passengers wound up on that fatal flight,

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Speaker 1: and the most common version of that Richie Valens, who

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Speaker 1: supposedly had a fear of flying, asked Tommy also for

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Speaker 1: his seat on the plane because he was ill prepared

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Speaker 1: for the cold and didn't even think to bring a

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Speaker 1: winter coat, so he was freezing on this tour of

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Speaker 1: the whole time. And instead of telling Richie basically, you

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Speaker 1: know tough, Tommy Alsop agreed to a coin toss backstage

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Speaker 1: after their gig and clear leg and Richie Valens won

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Speaker 1: and he was supposedly hurt to say, wow, that's the

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Speaker 1: first time I've ever won anything in my life, and

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Speaker 1: then he happily went to the airport to the plane

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Speaker 1: ride that would lead him to his death. Whalen Jennings,

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Speaker 1: the other member of Buddy Holly's band, was persuaded to

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Speaker 1: give up his seat on the plane due to the

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Speaker 1: sorry site of JP, the big Bopa Richardson, who had

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Speaker 1: come down with the flu and wanted to get to

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Speaker 1: the next tour stop early to see a doctor. Uh. Supposedly,

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Speaker 1: he offered Whalen Jennings a new sleeping bag to keep

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Speaker 1: him warm on the bus to sweeten the deal, so

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Speaker 1: Whalon just took pity on JP, and in another possibly

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Speaker 1: apocryphal bit of banter, Buddy supposedly eased dim when he

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Speaker 1: found out he wasn't gonna fly, but he said, well,

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Speaker 1: I hope your old bus freezes up, and Jennings responded, well,

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Speaker 1: I hope you're old plane crashes, and his last words

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Speaker 1: to his friend Buddy haunted him for the rest of

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Speaker 1: his life. To make matters worse, Whaland had to fill

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Speaker 1: in for Buddy as the lead singer on the final

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Speaker 1: weeks of the tour after his death, which is just brutal.

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Speaker 1: It's like an Oh Henry short story. This whole thing

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Speaker 1: is so sad. The plane took off at twelve am

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Speaker 1: on the morning of February three, nineteen fifty nine, and

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Speaker 1: crashed around five minutes later in a corn field, and

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Speaker 1: the cause of the crash is controversial, but believed to

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Speaker 1: be pilot error due to poor weather conditions. And this pilot,

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Speaker 1: who was a young man named Roger Peterson, apparently wasn't

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Speaker 1: properly rated to fly in low visibility scenarios and this

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Speaker 1: was nighttime there was lots of wind and snow flurries.

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Speaker 1: He was only twenty one years old, Buddy Holly was

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Speaker 1: just twenty two, and Richie Vallens was just seventeen. Good

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Speaker 1: Lord Buddy's widowed bride that are Buddy don mcleans so

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Speaker 1: eloquently saying about Maria Elna Holly learned of his death

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Speaker 1: on television and she suffered a miscarriage shortly after, which

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Speaker 1: she attributed to psychological trauma, and Buddy's mother learned of

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Speaker 1: the death through the radio, leading to another ugly scene.

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Speaker 1: And supposedly, I don't know how how much of a

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Speaker 1: myth this is. Buddy's death supposedly lead the protocols being

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Speaker 1: put in place where authorities don't release the names of

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Speaker 1: the deceased until the next of kinner notified and um.

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Speaker 1: And there was another weird situation. One of the reasons

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Speaker 1: that Tommy also Up, one of Buddy's bandmates, wanted to

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Speaker 1: get to Fargo early was because his mother had sent

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Speaker 1: him a registered letter to the post office up there

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Speaker 1: and he wanted to pick it up. So Buddy agreed

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Speaker 1: to go pick it up for him and told him

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Speaker 1: to hand over his I D and I guess Tommy

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Speaker 1: was taking too long to fish it out of his wallet,

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Speaker 1: so Buddy was just like, just give me your whole wallet.

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Speaker 1: I'll give it back to you, don't worry. And then

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Speaker 1: when the plane crashed, authorities found this wallet for this

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Speaker 1: guy and searched in Vain for his body. So early

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Speaker 1: news reports cited Tommy also up among the dead, and

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Speaker 1: I guess a neighbor frantically tried to get in touch

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Speaker 1: with his mother so she wouldn't hear it on TV.

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Speaker 1: But he was all right, and I think he lived

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Speaker 1: until a couple of years ago. My buddy Jeff Nolan,

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Speaker 1: who was the hard Rock Cafe chief curator, showed me

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Speaker 1: the wallet a few years back, and he cites this

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Speaker 1: as his favorite artifact in the eighty thousand items that

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Speaker 1: the hard Rock has collected in their archives. So interesting

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Speaker 1: bit of rock ephemera there. Also was interesting a few

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Speaker 1: months after the plane crash, in this cornfield they found

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Speaker 1: a gun that they thought maybe belonged to one of

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Speaker 1: the guys on the flight, and they investigated the theory

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Speaker 1: that maybe this gun had gone off in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the flight and that was responsible for the plane crash.

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Speaker 1: And for some reason, I don't really know why this was,

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Speaker 1: I thought that maybe JP, the big Bopa Richardson, you

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Speaker 1: have to say his full name, it's like a tribal quest.

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Speaker 1: They thought that maybe JP was the one who got shot.

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Speaker 1: So they actually, I think they exhumed his body and

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Speaker 1: did you know, an X ray of it to search

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Speaker 1: for any kind of bullets, and didn't find any fragments,

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Speaker 1: So I think that whole theory was put to rest.

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Speaker 1: But um, yeah, the day that music died really just

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Speaker 1: one bomber after another. I can't believe he wrote an

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Speaker 1: eight minutes song with nearly a thousand words and didn't

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Speaker 1: get any of those truly tragic details in there. With

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Speaker 1: the poetry. There's there's there's a lot of this is

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Speaker 1: a lot of tragedy in that song. We're going to

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Speaker 1: take a quick break, but we'll be right back with

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Speaker 1: more too much information in just a moment, back to dawn,

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Speaker 1: to happier climbs. I guess. So having pump fill Everley

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Speaker 1: for the graphic details of his friend's death. Uh Dawn

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Speaker 1: honed in on the detail of laundry, the small scale,

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Speaker 1: heartbreaking detail that apparently Holly even took some of his

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Speaker 1: pals dirty laundry on the plane to uh do when

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Speaker 1: he got to the next tour stop ahead of them.

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Speaker 1: Uh Don, just such age just humanizes this, this event

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Speaker 1: that's become so enshrined in rock mythology. It's something so

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Speaker 1: like when I learned that recently, just researching this episode,

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Speaker 1: that put a lump in my throat too. Just this

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Speaker 1: kid from Texas on a clean shirt, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean? Yeah. Uh Don later told Azy Central that

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Speaker 1: blew my mind right there. It brought everything cascading back.

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Speaker 1: Everything had been sort of etched in stone, the photographs,

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Speaker 1: the notes on the back of the record covers, had

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Speaker 1: all been static for all of those years, and now

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Speaker 1: suddenly there was this movement, and it all brought him

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Speaker 1: back to nine when he had first learned about Buddy's

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Speaker 1: death ten years earlier, which is possibly where we get

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Speaker 1: the for ten years we've been on our own line,

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Speaker 1: although that is debated. We'll get into that in a second.

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Speaker 1: At the time, he was a thirteen year old paperboy

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Speaker 1: out delivering the news of his heroes passing in the

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Speaker 1: freezing cold streets of New Rochelle uh and, like many

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Speaker 1: rock fans, the loss felt like a personal one, like

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Speaker 1: the death of a friend. As he told the UK

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Speaker 1: TV show Songbook quote Buddy Holly's death to me was

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Speaker 1: a personal tragedy. I went to school and mentioned it

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Speaker 1: and they said, so what. So I carried this yearning

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Speaker 1: and longing, if you will, this weird sadness. And you know,

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Speaker 1: we just mentioned that line ten years. But Don's father

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Speaker 1: died in nine, ten years before American Pie comes out,

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Speaker 1: which is what has led people to speculate that for

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Speaker 1: the ten years we've been on our own line had

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Speaker 1: that personal connection to him. We will get to McLean's

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Speaker 1: historical evasiveness about painting down an exact meaning to this song.

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Speaker 1: Although he has repeatedly said that it is a biographical song,

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Speaker 1: he's made reference to his older sister, who struggled with

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Speaker 1: substance abuse issues during his childhood and was, as you

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Speaker 1: might imagine, a source of a lot of strife in

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Speaker 1: the family household. He talked about this to The Guardian,

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Speaker 1: saying that's why I'm a blue guy. I guess all

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Speaker 1: my stuff is about loss and a certain kind of

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Speaker 1: psychic pain. I've never really been happy. When asked point

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Speaker 1: blank whether or not adverse about his father, You've hit

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Speaker 1: the nail on the head, he says, an unambiguous idiom,

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Speaker 1: if ever there was one. I mean, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 1: That's why I don't like talking about the lyrics, because

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Speaker 1: I wanted to capture and say something that was almost unspeakable.

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Speaker 1: It's indescribable. So it's not just about the death of

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Speaker 1: Buddy Holly, but about the death of the good old

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Speaker 1: days and the innocence and optimism that come with childhood.

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Speaker 1: So all of these feelings, all these memories are rattled

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Speaker 1: around Don's head, and they become the intro of the song.

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Speaker 1: More or less fully formed. He sings them into a

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Speaker 1: tape recorder. The melody in the words come together once,

426
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: and he wrote it down after the fact, kicked around

427
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: the intro for a few months before figuring out what

428
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 1: he wanted to do with it, later saying I could

429
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,880
Speaker 1: have gone one hundred different ways with this. I could

430
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 1: have made it a slow song. I didn't want any

431
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 1: more slow songs. I wanted a rock and roll song.

432
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 1: He wanted a song that evoked the intersection of politics

433
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,160
Speaker 1: and music and how one influences the other. And that's

434
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,360
Speaker 1: what led to the six verses of this. And there's

435
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 1: a persistent rumor that he wrote these ver this is

436
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: at a bar in Saratoga Springs called the Tin and Linz,

437
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 1: and then got so drunk that he left them behind,

438
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: and American Pie wouldn't exist as we know it today,

439
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: at least had a kindly student not scooped up these

440
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 1: missing notes and return them to down the next day.

441
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 1: That's the myth. If I had a time machine, my

442
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: first two stops baby Hitler, Strangle Baby Hitler, stop this

443
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: student from giving Don McClean his notes. Well, Don denied

444
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 1: this story, though, so you might be wasting your trip,

445
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 1: he said an interview with the NPR. American Pie is

446
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: a little bit like the Mayflower. Everybody's been on it,

447
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: or their parents were on it, or something. People knew

448
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 1: me that I didn't know, And people know things about

449
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 1: me that you know, they imagine and it's just the

450
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: way things are. But what makes me think this is

451
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: funny is that I've kind of been knocking these stories

452
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: down for years, and yet it persists. So it makes

453
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,360
Speaker 1: you wonder how can you believe history? And McLean says

454
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: that he actually wrote the lyrics to the verses of

455
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: American Pie were walking into a drug store in the

456
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: small town of cold Spring and upstate New York, and

457
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: he later said, I came up with the course walking

458
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: into the damn store. I said, I've got to write

459
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: this down. I ran home. It was several miles away.

460
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: And I bring this up only because I visit cold

461
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: Spring a lot, and I was recently house sitting for

462
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: a friend up there, and I unknowingly went to this

463
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: exact pharmacy, which he describes being next to a wine store,

464
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: which is also still there. And I didn't have a

465
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: car when I visited, and so I also had to

466
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: run home on foot. So just a few weeks ago,

467
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: I inadvertently took the same route that Don McClean took

468
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: while writing the verse and choruses to American Pie. And

469
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: I feel fantastic about that. I feel I feel a

470
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: kinship um. He later said that he finished writing the

471
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: song in Philadelphia, which feels appropriate given the whole Americana thing,

472
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 1: and premiered it for the first time at Temple University

473
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: when he was opening for Laura Niro on March fourteenth,

474
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,479
Speaker 1: and during this initial performance, there quite possibly was an

475
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: addition old verse, a long lost verse in American Pie. Now,

476
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: for all of its catchy sing along jauntiness, there's really

477
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 1: very little cheer in American Pie. It's devoid of hope.

478
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: McLean did come up with a more upbeat verse where

479
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: the music gets reborn at the end of the song,

480
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: but ultimately he ditched it. He said, things weren't going

481
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: that way. I didn't see America improving intellectually or politically.

482
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: It was steadily going downhill, and so was the music.

483
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: So what's that great? I think Orson Wells or um

484
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: Hitchcock I forget which you know. You can make any

485
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: comedy a tragedy or any tragedy comedy depending on where

486
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: you end the movie. It's like that way with this song. Yeah,

487
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: it's probably for the best that he didn't add another

488
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: verse to the six verses that had already made the

489
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: final cut, because it is famously a very long song,

490
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 1: and when he played it for producer Ed Freeman for

491
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: the first time, he's sang in abridged version just the

492
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 1: first verse in chorus, because blasting your producer with an

493
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 1: eight and a half minute song right out of the

494
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: gate is sort of a it's a tremendous power move,

495
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: let's put it that way. And Ed Freeman, this producer,

496
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 1: is an interesting guy. He produced both the song and

497
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: the American Pie album, and he grew up in Boston

498
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: where he learned to play the renaissance loot. And he

499
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: was paired but Don McClean and the recommendation of folk

500
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 1: singer Tom Rush. And in addition to Don McLean, this guy,

501
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: Ed Freeman worked with Carly Simon, Gregg Allman, and Tim

502
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: Harden before chucking it all to become a photographer who

503
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: since become renowned for his nudes, and he shot a

504
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: cover for Playboy magazine in twenty nineteen. So yes, the

505
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: producer of American Pie has also produced a cover for Playboy.

506
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: Good for him. American Pie was recorded on the twenty

507
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: six of May ninety one inside Studio A at New

508
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: York's Record Plant, and initially Don McLean wanted to record

509
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 1: American Pie with just an acoustic guitar, similar to the

510
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 1: albums that Freeman had produced for the folk singer Tom Rush,

511
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 1: which can you imagine if this was just like a

512
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: nine minute acoustic guitar phil Oaks style rant. It's a

513
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: good thing that Freeman persuaded him to use a rhythm section,

514
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: and speaking to Classic Rock Magazine a few years back,

515
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 1: ed Freeman said that convincing Don to use a full

516
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: band was quote the most crucial thing I did for

517
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: that whole record. Don had not really had any experience

518
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: of playing with other people, and he was very leary

519
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: about it. So instead of getting in a bunch of

520
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 1: seasons studio musicians who could knock out the take in

521
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: five minutes, I deliberately got musicians who were good but

522
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: weren't slick, burned out superstar players, so not they were right,

523
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: so they'd be able to approach down on the same level.

524
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: He said. He basically he wanted good live players who

525
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,719
Speaker 1: were just as green in the studio as Don was.

526
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: And this is a really interesting sentiment to me because

527
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: these guys seem like pretty heavy hitters from where I sit.

528
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: There's pianist Paul Griffin, who played on Bob Dylan's Bring

529
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: It All Back Home. Highway sixty one, revisited Blonde on

530
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: Blonde and Blood on the Tracks and he also played with,

531
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: among many other people, Steely Dan on Asia and that's

532
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: him playing keyboards on Peg one of the best songs

533
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: I've ever written. And then Rob Stoner, who was Dylan's

534
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: basis for Rolling Thunder. He takes a truly unnecessary bass

535
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: solo on isis Um and that's all that guy has done,

536
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: and he still plays that song like his bar gigs

537
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: and still takes that bass solo. And then there's my

538
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: favorite session player on this track is Dave Spinoza, who's

539
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: familiar to me mostly for playing on my favorite solo

540
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: Paul McCartney album, ones Ram, and he went on to

541
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: work with John Lennon for his album Mind Games. A

542
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: few years later, during the height of the post split

543
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: Beatles acrimony, and Spinoza discovered that John didn't know that

544
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: he had previously worked with Paul, and he really tried

545
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: to hide it from him because he was afraid to

546
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: be fired if John found out that, you know, he'd

547
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: already been tainted by Paul or whatever, given all their

548
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: recent feuding in the media. And I guess when John

549
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: did learn of it, his only comment was that Paul

550
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: quote knows how to pick good peoples. There Knows also

551
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: appeared on Ringo Stars seven album Ringo the Fourth, earning

552
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: him the distinction of having recorded with three of the

553
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: four Beatles. Good for him, Yeah, uh so, Don rehearsed

554
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: with this band for two weeks before recording it in

555
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: order to nail all the dynamic changes. I mean, you know,

556
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: it's an eight and a half minute song, so a

557
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: lot of changes there, and they nailed it pretty quickly. Apparently.

558
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: The final backing track that you hear is almost a

559
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: single complete take except for a small edit of the

560
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: piano part on the intro, So the instrumental backing track

561
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: pretty simple, the vocals not so much. Producer Ed Freeman

562
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: says that they were stitched together from twenty four separate takes,

563
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: and that's when they're doing this with razor Blade and

564
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: Scotch tape Jesus and Freeman said his nickname back then

565
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: was Slash for that very reason. He was just making

566
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: really yeah exactly for being extremely precise with all of

567
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: his edits, and it got to the same point that

568
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: he says that there's one three syllable on the final

569
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: track where each syllable is from a different take, and

570
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: I'm not going to try to find out where that is.

571
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: He declined to name it. But uh, but why was

572
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: this required, you may ask, because, as producer Ed Freeman

573
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: explained in Yahoo and as diplomatic away as possible, Don

574
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 1: is an excellent, very very talented singer. But someone apparently

575
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: made fun of him because he apparently sang things with

576
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: the exact same vocal inflections every time, so he decided

577
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: to be more improvisational when they were recording American Pie.

578
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: And this is Ed Freeman talking. My estimation was that

579
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: his improvisations just didn't work, and we're muddling up the song.

580
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: And when I kept asking him to sing it in

581
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: a certain way, he wouldn't do it. He wanted to

582
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: play with it every time, inserting slides and other things

583
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: to it that, in my mind, didn't fit. So we

584
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: ended up recording him twenty four times and took different

585
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: parts from different takes until I got every word the

586
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: way I wanted it without all the play. And I

587
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: don't think Don appreciated that much. In Don's case, I

588
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: think he was happy with the finished vocal, but he

589
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: was not happy with someone else having that much influence.

590
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: And as you can imagine, with all these redos things

591
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: got a little testy in the studio. Ed Freeman said,

592
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: we had quite a tempestuous relationship. I wasn't an easy

593
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: person to work with. Don wasn't an easy person to

594
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:16,959
Speaker 1: work with. So working with the two of us together

595
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: must have been like watching two wasps go at each other.

596
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: I think he missed the bug and not New England's

597
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: white people. Yeah, they would have just been sitting on

598
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: opposite Yeah. He also said that Don McLean badly needed

599
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: an editor because he couldn't bring the best out in

600
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: himself and edit what needed to be edited, considering the

601
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: finished song is almost nine minutes. Um, yeah, maybe maybe

602
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: could he used some kind of editor. But but then again,

603
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: so could we. But Don must have liked something, considering

604
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: he booked ed Freeman to produce his next two albums.

605
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: So I guess they kissed and made up. I like

606
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: this Ed Freeman guy. Yeah, the real hero of this story. So,

607
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: speaking of the vocals, the non on razor bladed together vocals,

608
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: if you're listening closer to the background vocals on the song,

609
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: you can hear some famous folks. Apparently uncredited singers on

610
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: the final background chorus are James Taylor, Carly Simon, James

611
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: Taylor's brother Livingston Taylor, Which, sure, do you have any

612
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: Livingston Taylor and Live Taylor? Like, I mean not Live

613
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: Taylor's right, Live Tyler Tyler? No, he went by now

614
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: was he had a he had a big album in

615
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: the early seventies. He was just called Live. No, he was,

616
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: I mean definitely not up there with James Taylor, but

617
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: he had some good stuff in the early seventies. Nepotism.

618
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: We're checking out Taylor too. There's sister. It's also a

619
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: very talented singer. Man, if you were just a white

620
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: guy strumming a guitar in the seventies, you could just

621
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: bring your whole family along with you. Guess what we

622
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: have seventies six Wayne Rights kicking around. Um and Pete

623
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: Seeger Oh, Pete segers On there too. Yeah, what a group.

624
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: It was quite a star studded cast, and one that

625
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: I've really should have photographed. Freeman said, Um, but they

626
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: neglected to credit these people, probably because of contract stuff,

627
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: right like these are these were they were all contracted different.

628
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 1: So Springsteen is my favorite collaboration of all time, not

629
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: to lie, my favorite collaboration for the purpose of this podcast.

630
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: At this exact moment Springsteen's uncredited spoken words section in

631
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: Street Hassle by Lou Reid. Do you imagine two people

632
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,720
Speaker 1: less predisposed collaboration. I love that, And he was incredited

633
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,439
Speaker 1: because I think he was fighting with Hammond at the time.

634
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: But yeah, so they were built simply as the West

635
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: forty four street rhythm and noise choir. It's a good name,

636
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: Yeah it is. I gotta give Don some credit. He

637
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: wanted to have the mixing of the song mirror the

638
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 1: transition from the nineteen fifties to the sixties. He wanted

639
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: the song to begin mono transition from monitor stereo as

640
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: the song progress, but the guy who engineered the session,

641
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: Tom Fry, has discredited that. He told Performing Musician magazine

642
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 1: that it was Freeman's idea. He said he originally wanted

643
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: American Pie to start in mono and then go to stereo,

644
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: but that wasn't really doable with the board we had,

645
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: so I talked him out of it. Yeah. I don't

646
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: buy that that's a mixing thing. That's not Maybe it

647
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 1: just was more trouble than it was worth for this

648
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,439
Speaker 1: high cons I think that was already seem spiraling out

649
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: of you know, twenty four different takes ditched together. They

650
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,280
Speaker 1: probably spend to get it at the tour. Yeah, speaking

651
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: of that length, you know, this is one of the

652
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,839
Speaker 1: many technical problems post by American Pie Narrow when many

653
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 1: radio station, particularly AM stations, were demanding radio edits around

654
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: three and a half to four minutes. American Pie is

655
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: a tidy eight minutes and forty two seconds. Much of

656
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: it out kind of doesn't really works. That's all so

657
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: essential sorry, um As and Freeman says, there was no

658
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: way to physically put an eight minute song on one

659
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: side of a forty five, which would have been the

660
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 1: single release for it, so we split it part one,

661
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: part two. Even so, I spent weeks in the mastering

662
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: lab looking at every groove under a microscope to see

663
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 1: if we were actually getting the song on there. So

664
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: the needle wooden't skip, and we still had hundred thousand

665
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 1: returns on forty five because the needle did skip. Oh

666
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,919
Speaker 1: my god, it was a nightmare, hundred thousand. Imagine being

667
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 1: ed Freeman and like, not only is the creation of

668
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: this song nightmare, but the mixing of it, the mastering

669
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 1: of it. You get it out the door a sense

670
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: of piece returns to your life for the first time

671
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: in months, and then you hear that it hasn't been

672
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: mastered correctly and people are sending the forty five back.

673
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: Oh Man, the only person more haunted by this song

674
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: than I am American. Pie was released in October of nine,

675
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: spent four weeks the number one on the Billboard Hot

676
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: one hundred. Fittingly, it remained there on the thirteenth anniversary

677
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: of the The music died that February. If you're a numerologist,

678
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: that might be interesting to you. It was also the

679
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: longest song to top the charts, a record it held

680
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 1: for fifty years until Taylor Swift released her re recorded

681
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: version of All Too Well in November, which clocks in

682
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: at ten minutes and thirteen seconds. Since you Saying to

683
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: Me that Don's other major chart hit, which is this

684
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 1: tribute to Vince e Vengo Vincent uh is about the

685
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: loss of another important cultural icon. So loves eulogizing eulogize

686
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: there was most likely the eulogize in his high school

687
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: year book, Just Loves writing about incredibly beloved, widespread, massively

688
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 1: popular figures who don't need to be eulogized. Just taking

689
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: shots at dawn, come at me down. I'll fight you

690
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: in a par I'll fight you in a new Rochelle

691
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: Parking lot. I'll fly there on my own time. Watch

692
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: him like whip my ass, Watch like eighty year old

693
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: Don McClain, like throw hands, break my jaw. That would

694
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: be my most high gol come uppance. I shoot my

695
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: mouth off in a boomer musician with one hit to

696
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: his name, just like Rex my um. Thankfully, it was

697
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: snubbed at the Grammys, where it lost both Song of

698
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: the Year and Record of the Year to ROBERTA. Flak.

699
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: Thank I. Oh my god, that would have been my

700
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: third stop on the time machine if this song had

701
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: beat out ROBERTA. Flack for Record of the Year and

702
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: Song of the Year. First time ever I saw your face. Well,

703
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful song. It's tremendous, and you have more

704
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: bits about it. Yeah. This is interesting to me because ROBERTA.

705
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: Flack won the same pair of awards Song of the

706
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: Year and Record of the Year the following year at

707
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 1: the Grammys for Killing Me Softly with his song, which

708
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: was actually written about Don McLean. In nine one, a

709
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: singer named Lorie Lieberman saw Don McLean perform at the

710
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: Tubadoor Theater in Los Angeles, and she was so moved

711
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,399
Speaker 1: by the experiences she wrote a poem about it, which

712
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 1: she relayed to lyricist Norman gimbal who wrote killing Me

713
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: Softly around It, which became a gargantuan smash for a

714
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: bird of flak and it was also famously covered by

715
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: the Fuji's. But that's not Don McLean's only tie to

716
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: hip hop legends. His work has influenced the likes of Drake,

717
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: who sampled two of his songs the Wrong Thing to

718
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: Do and When a Good Thing Goes bad for his

719
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: song doing It Wrong. But according to the movie Tupac

720
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: the Resurrection, Tupac Shakur was heavily influenced by Don McClean.

721
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: He's quoted as saying, my inspiration for writing music is

722
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: like Don McLean did when he did American Pie, or

723
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 1: Vincent Lorraine Handsbury with a Raisin in the Sun, like

724
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: Shakespeare when he does his thing like deep stories, raw

725
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: human needs. And he also cited Vincent as his favorite song,

726
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 1: telling the l a times the lyric on that song

727
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: is so touching. That's how I want to make my

728
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: songs feel, and reportedly his girlfriend played Vincent Tupac on

729
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: his deathbed, which makes it the last song that he

730
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 1: ever heard. The last song that Tupac Shaker ever heard

731
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: was Don McLean's Vincent. Isn't that nuts? How do you

732
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 1: feel about that? Anyway? Oh? This will this will make

733
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 1: you even happier? Anyway? Back to American Pie. The track

734
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: inspired a host of covers over the years, all of

735
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 1: them fairly ill advised, but none were as terrible as

736
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: the earliest cover by The Brady Bunch, television's favorite blended

737
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: family recorded the song in two, just a year after

738
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: the original, for their album Meet the Brady Bunch, and

739
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: they also did uber poppy versions of You and Me

740
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: and a Dog named Boo, Bad Fingers, Day After Day,

741
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: and Baby I'maa Want You by Bread. But of particular

742
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: note is their truncated version of American Pie. It's only

743
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 1: three and a half minutes, which sort of cuts the

744
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: guts out of the song. But I didn't really want

745
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,760
Speaker 1: to listen to any more of the Brady Bunch anyway.

746
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,919
Speaker 1: It's been frequently included on lists of the worst cover

747
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: songs of all time, and as actor Barry Williams, who

748
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: played Greg Brady, wrote in his memoir Growing Up Brady.

749
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: Worst of all, though, was our extraordinary, awful rendition of

750
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: American pie Ouch, so at least he's aware of it.

751
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: On the flip side, I'll always have a soft spot

752
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 1: for weird Owl star Wars inspired song the Saga Begins.

753
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: Was that a big one for you? Yeah? Do you

754
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: know why this song rules? Sure? No? So, I mean

755
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: obvious other than all the obvious things. Uh. Weird Ol

756
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: wrote it from pre release internet spoilers Lucasfilm. Lucasfilm turned

757
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 1: him down. He wanted an advanced screening of it, and he,

758
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: on his own dime, subsequently went to a pre screening

759
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: where the proceeds were going to charity, and the spoilers

760
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: were so accurate that he had read that he didn't

761
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 1: really have to change much in the song. And uh.

762
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: It is the second weird Owl song about Star Wars,

763
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: which is nineteen eighties Yoda, which is a parody of

764
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: Lola by the Kings. That's good, m I guess. Tom

765
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 1: McLean is also a big fan of The Saga Begins,

766
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: and he's admitted to nearly singing weird Al's lyrics in

767
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: concert because his children played the song so often, which

768
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,399
Speaker 1: God Love Yeah. The only cover version of American Pie

769
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: to actually chart is the one done by Hichael's favorite Madonna,

770
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: who recorded it for her two thousand movie The Next

771
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: Best Thing with Rupert Everett. Um, I guess in the

772
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: movie Madonna and Rupert Everett singing at a funeral. I

773
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: haven't caught this one in a while or ever. But

774
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 1: the studio version was included on the soundtrack and released

775
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: as a single, which topped the UK charts and peaked

776
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: at twenty nine in the US. And this version was

777
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 1: voted the worst ever cover in a poll by BBC

778
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: six Music in two thousand and seven. But one fan

779
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: of Madonna's cover is McLean himself, who felt moved to

780
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 1: release a statement about her version. Uh, he's been defending

781
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: it for years, so maybe he needed to release this

782
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: just to lie fend off the haters. Madonna is a

783
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: colossus in the music industry, and she is going to

784
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: be considered an important historical figure as well. She's a

785
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 1: fine singer, a fine songwriter and record producer, and she

786
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: has the power to guarantee success with any song she

787
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 1: chooses to record. It's a gift for her to have

788
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: recorded American Pie. I've heard her version. I think it's

789
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: sensual and mystical. Sensual and mystical. I also feel that

790
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,280
Speaker 1: she's chosen autobiographical verses that reflect your career and personal history.

791
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 1: I hope it will cause people to ask what's happening

792
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,919
Speaker 1: to music in America. I have received many gifts from God,

793
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: but this is the first time I ever received a

794
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 1: gift from a goddess. Wow. Quite a statement there. I'm

795
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: guessing he mostly appreciated the financial implications of Madonna's cover because,

796
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:51,399
Speaker 1: as well discussed later, this guy really enjoys making money. Yeah.

797
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 1: Don McLean loves money. His oft repeated quote about this song.

798
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 1: What does American poet mean? Is it means I never

799
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: have to work again? Yeah? Yeah, you know once again. Wow,

800
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: I was in our generation doesn't get pensions or healthcare.

801
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: But I'm glad this guy can make six figures from

802
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: a fifty year old song something like three hundred thousand

803
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,240
Speaker 1: dollars a year. According to an interview in market Watch,

804
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: he claims to have made a hundred and fifty million

805
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: dollars in his life thanks to wise investments and his

806
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: degree in finance from Iona College. But the interpretations of

807
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: this song came fast and furious. In January of nineteen

808
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: seventy two, just a few months after the release, Chicago

809
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: DJ published his interpretation of the lyrics, and this the

810
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:41,240
Speaker 1: floodgates were opened. There are entire websites dedicated to decoding

811
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: the meaning of all nearly nine d words of this,

812
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: and one person who has declined to weigh in, at

813
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,240
Speaker 1: least in a meaningful way is Don himself. In Night.

814
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 1: He did admit that the lyrics were an autobiographical take

815
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: of his own life from the mid fifties to the

816
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: mid sixties, but that's it's kind of it. He published

817
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,959
Speaker 1: an open letter to fans as part of the syndicated

818
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: Straight Dope column in The Chicago Reader. Did he have

819
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: a syndicated column in the Chicago Reader? Was the answering questions,

820
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: I've never heard a straight dop. Oh, they published like

821
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 1: books and stuff. It's almost like a snoops, like they

822
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: all you know, fact checking kind of Oh that's pretty cool. Now.

823
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: We didn't get all weeklies in New Calf week We

824
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 1: didn't get anything. We got this John's Bathroom Reader. Yes,

825
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: like seven news I need Bathroomaders. They're like seven different

826
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 1: copies of those scatter at my house. Um, this letter

827
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: read in part as you can imagine. I've been asked

828
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: many times to discuss and explain my song American Pie.

829
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: I have never discussed the lyrics, but have admitted to

830
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 1: the Buddy Holly reference in the opening stanzas. I dedicated

831
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: the album American Pie to Buddy Holly as well in

832
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,839
Speaker 1: order to connect the entire statement to Holly in hopes

833
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: of bringing about an intro to him, which subsequently did occur.

834
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 1: You will find many quote interpretations of my lyrics, but

835
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: none of them by me. Isn't this fun? Sorry to

836
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 1: leave you all on your own like this? But long

837
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 1: ago I realized songwriters should make their statements and move on,

838
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 1: maintaining a dignified silence. It sounds like the zodiacs letters

839
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: or something. Isn't this fun? Sorry to leave you on

840
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: your own like this? But I realized I must be

841
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: going now what a shudd Sorry, I make my statements

842
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 1: and move on. I'll just continue dining out on this

843
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: for the entirety of my natural life. Oh boy, Um yeah,

844
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 1: I'll read this line because there's no way you can

845
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,760
Speaker 1: read this for him. The song has become an impressionistic

846
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 1: dreamlike fantasia of the youth culture explosion in the sixties,

847
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: and he preferred to keep it poetry rather than make

848
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: it literal and remove the power of the words through

849
00:46:55,719 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 1: the imaginative interpretation of the individuals. It is worth nothing

850
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: that he was not alone in this particular generation of

851
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 1: songwriters for uh, not really enjoying people playing these armchair interpretations.

852
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: The doors used to read these and laugh to each other,

853
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,399
Speaker 1: which you know, Jim Morrison was drunk for of his life.

854
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: So I buy that. The Beatles, especially class Onion is

855
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 1: famously John Lennon was amused by people being handed his

856
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,240
Speaker 1: lyrics in classes, right, like in like writing classes in school.

857
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: And so there's all these different troll lines in there, like, uh,

858
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: that's the one that has the walrists. Paul right tells

859
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: you about, Yeah, tells you about Strawberry Fields full in

860
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: the hill. He's living there still, uh McLean says he

861
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 1: did say if I told people what I meant, they

862
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 1: just say, no, you didn't, all right. Uh he has,

863
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 1: fittingly for someone who said I should make my statement

864
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 1: and move on. He has continued to talk about the

865
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,720
Speaker 1: song recently, most notably when the man used for American

866
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: Pie was auctioned off in by Christie's. He said, basically,

867
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 1: an American Pie. Things are heading in the wrong direction.

868
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: It is becoming less idyllic. I don't know whether you

869
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 1: consider that wrong or right, but it is a morality

870
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: song in a sense. Ah He likened to singing the

871
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: line singing bye bye miss American Pie to an apocryphal

872
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: the apocryphal story of Nero playing the fiddle well Rome burned.

873
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,720
Speaker 1: But much like Carly Simon's You're So Vain and Atlantis

874
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 1: says you ought to know, it will be one of

875
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: those songs where the true on the record meeting is

876
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 1: forever obscured by the mists of time. As you meditate

877
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 1: on that, We'll be right back with more too much

878
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: information after these messages. So considering Don McLean is not

879
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: gonna say let's have a little fun and delve into

880
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 1: the lyrics of American Pie, shall we? Yes? Let's have answer, Yes, Jordan,

881
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: let us have fun. Let's have fun. Isn't this a

882
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: lot from um Man? We just watched King of Comedy

883
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: a few months ago. We're going to have good, clean fun.

884
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: That's well, he's he's duct taped to the chair. Um

885
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: that's what that's what you're doing to me right now

886
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 1: as I go through all six verses of American Pie

887
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: strapping Baby, Yes, Here we Go. I've looked at quite

888
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 1: a few annotated versions of this song, but the best

889
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: one that I found is on a music site called

890
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: musical Holics, which, despite it's difficult to pronounce and slightly

891
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: problematic name, is kind of one of the best music

892
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: trivia sites I found lately. I stumbled across it recently

893
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: when I was researching something fun of the episodes we

894
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: were doing, and it's a cool site, some really great

895
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 1: deep dives, And this piece by Alva Yaffee on the

896
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 1: meaning of American Pie is really stellar. So I'm taking

897
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 1: a lot out of the interpretations I'm talking about from

898
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,399
Speaker 1: that piece. Go check it out. It's really good. Verse

899
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 1: one we all know the opening verse A long long

900
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 1: time ago, with a young Don McLean is a paper

901
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 1: boy shivering on the doorstep of a neighbor's house as

902
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 1: he delivers the news of his hero buddy Holly's death.

903
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: The Bye Bye Miss American Pie chorus we've touched on

904
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 1: is believed to be about the loss of American innocence.

905
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: This notion of going in the wrong direction, but the

906
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: levy might have a more personal meaning to Don who. Again,

907
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: it should be noted, as always maintained, that this is

908
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,959
Speaker 1: a very autobiographical song. According to some reports I've seen,

909
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: the levee was a bar that he and his friends

910
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: would hang out in a New Rochelle, And sometimes the

911
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: levee would close or the levy would be dry and McLean,

912
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: and his friends would drive across the Husson River to

913
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:51,399
Speaker 1: drink in the town of Rye, New York whiskey and

914
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: Rye whiskey in Rye. And again that was formerly one

915
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 1: of the biggest oak bars. Wasn't used to be called

916
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 1: cookies right yeah? Famous two tho indie rock hot spot

917
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 1: you know, total meet me in the bathroom like spot YEA.

918
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: Also worth noting that Chevy had a famous jingle in

919
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 1: the fifties sung by Dinah Shore called See the USA

920
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: and Your Chevrolet, which featured the lyrics drive your Chevrolet

921
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 1: through the USA, America's the greatest land of all on

922
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: a highway or a road along the levy. Life is

923
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: completed in a Chevy. So make a day today to

924
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 1: see the USA and see it in your Chevrolet. So

925
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 1: even the choice of car in American pie is pretty

926
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 1: loaded the significance or it just rhymed um. Second verse,

927
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: we start in the good old days? Did you write

928
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 1: the Book of Love? Is a reference to not only

929
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 1: young teenage love but also the old do wop song

930
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: Book of Love by the Monotones. And Don touches on

931
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,440
Speaker 1: faith with do you have faith in God above if

932
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: the Bible tells you so? Although the Bible tells me so.

933
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 1: It was also a hit song by Don Cornell in

934
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 1: nineteen five, so it could be another song reference. Then

935
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: Don makes the connection between faith and music with the

936
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,919
Speaker 1: next line, do you believe in rock and roll? Can

937
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 1: music save your mortal soul? And this sounds like a

938
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: bit of teenage hyperbole, but it's something that Don apparently

939
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: believes in quite wholeheartedly, he said in a nineteen interview

940
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 1: with Phonograph magazine. Music is a very sacred thing. To

941
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 1: sell it fainted or abuse. It isn't just commercial. It's sacrilege.

942
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:36,320
Speaker 1: Music touches the same universality that made Christ a saint

943
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 1: to many people, and that's very important. Uh. And it's

944
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 1: really unclear whether the line can music savor mortal soul?

945
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 1: Is meant to be sincere or sarcastic, because it could

946
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: also be viewed as people moving away from God and

947
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 1: looking to secular heroes like rock stars bigger than Jesus. Right, yeah,

948
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 1: oh yeah, there you go. Yeah. I just want to

949
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: point out one of my favorite rock and roll couplets

950
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: of all times by Mike Cooley from Drive By Truckers,

951
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 1: who uh, twenty years younger than Don McClean, but really

952
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 1: one of the greatest opening lines in to my mind,

953
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 1: rock history, which is in the song Marry Me by

954
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: Drive By Truckers. The opening line to that song is, well,

955
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 1: my daddy didn't pull out, but he never apologized. Rock

956
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 1: and roll means well, but it can't help telling young

957
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 1: boys lies. Ah wow, rock and roll mythology. I will

958
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 1: never stop believing in it, even as much as I

959
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 1: detest so much of that, so much of it. Sorry,

960
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: just just what it made me think of. Well, Don

961
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,840
Speaker 1: mcclean's take on romance, at least back in the good

962
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 1: time era of the fifties. It's a lot more quaint

963
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:47,280
Speaker 1: because he sings about the intimate, romantic courtship fifties style,

964
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 1: slow dancing in the gym at a sock hop, picking

965
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: up your date for prom with a pink carnation in

966
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: your boutineer, which is probably a reference to Marty Robbins

967
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 1: a white sport coat with a pink carnation later parodied

968
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 1: by friend of the Program Jimmy buff It in his

969
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: album titled White sport Coat with a pink crustaceans. That's funny,

970
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say. If anything, this Batan death march of

971
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 1: a podcast is making me appreciate Jimmy Buffett more so.

972
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: The greatest trick the Devil and Jordan never pulled was

973
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 1: making Buffett look great by comparison. I love Marty Robbins, man,

974
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: Oh yeah great. Do you know that I didn't realize this?

975
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 1: And this makes so much sense from a practical standpoint.

976
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: Doo saw cops were a thing because they made kids

977
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: take off their shoes so they wouldn't scuff up the

978
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 1: polished ardwood floor in school gymnasiums. I actually did, because

979
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 1: yeah I did, because we did Greece and my wait,

980
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 1: you were in Greece. Yeah, I mean I was in

981
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 1: like the chorus. I was in the chorus of like everything,

982
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 1: and until until I played now thinking leer you were

983
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 1: king Lear, How old were you, uh sixteen, seventeen sixteen

984
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 1: or seventeen. Oh my god, I wish I hope somebody

985
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:57,839
Speaker 1: recorded that I would love this. They didn't, and if

986
00:54:57,840 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: they did, I would have destroyed it. So when I

987
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 1: most more defying high school memories, my god, Well, let's

988
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 1: keep rolling. My suffering is legendary. To quote hell Raiser,

989
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 1: Uh verse three, Jordan, go ahead. Yes. Verse three opens

990
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 1: with one of the most debated verses of the song.

991
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: For ten years, We've been on our own and moss

992
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 1: grows fat on a rolling stone, but that's not how

993
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 1: it used to be, and the most obvious interpretations that

994
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: refers to the rolling Stones themselves. But interestingly, the line

995
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:33,399
Speaker 1: a rolling stone gathers no moss is a line from

996
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: a Buddy Holly song Early in the Morning, So this

997
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 1: line might be tying a decade worth of rock tragedies

998
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 1: together the ten years, if you will, between Buddy Holly's

999
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 1: playing Crash in nine and the Rolling Stones concert at

1000
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:50,320
Speaker 1: Altamont in nineteen sixty nine, where Meredith Hunter was knife

1001
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 1: to death by a member of the Hell's Angels. But then,

1002
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 1: of course there's also the Bob Dylan song Like a

1003
00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone, so multiple potential meanings there, but we mentioned

1004
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan. This, of course leads us into the Jester section,

1005
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 1: when the Jester sang for the King and Queen and

1006
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:10,720
Speaker 1: a coat he borrowed from James Dean and a voice

1007
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 1: that came from you and me, and while the king

1008
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:16,959
Speaker 1: was looking down, the Jester stole his thorny crown. The Jester,

1009
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: of course, it is widely believed to be Bob Dylan,

1010
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 1: and the coat he borrowed from James Dean is believed

1011
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 1: to be the outfit he wore on the cover of

1012
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 1: his Freewheel And album where he's walking down cold day

1013
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,440
Speaker 1: and he's gonna cope buttoned up. Um, that's a James

1014
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,839
Speaker 1: Dean jacket. Yeah, I mean I think he's looking at

1015
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 1: the rebel without a cause, like red windbreaker kind of thing.

1016
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's if it's that one. The

1017
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: voice that came from you and Me line is thought

1018
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 1: to be a reference to Dylan's untrained singing style and

1019
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,360
Speaker 1: also his status as the spokesperson for his generation. Famously,

1020
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: Um the King and Queen that the Jester sang for,

1021
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 1: this gets a little thorny. There are some who believe

1022
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 1: that This is a reference to a FK and Jackie

1023
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:04,000
Speaker 1: Kennedy playing off the whole camelot myth of the Kennedy

1024
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 1: White House. And there are also someone take a literal

1025
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 1: approach believing that King and Queen are actually Martin Luther

1026
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 1: King and Queen Elizabeth the Second, who I guess Bob

1027
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 1: Dylan did sing for on separate occasions um, which is interesting.

1028
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,360
Speaker 1: Taken alone, the line while the King was looking down

1029
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:24,439
Speaker 1: the jester stole his thorny crown seems to reference Bob

1030
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 1: Dylan becoming the dominant force among young music fans, stealing

1031
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: the mantle from the King of Rock, Elvis Presley, who

1032
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 1: was either serving the army or serving in Hollywood. Either way,

1033
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 1: he was kind of had a commission. The thorny crown

1034
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 1: in question is thought to be the price of fame.

1035
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 1: I guess Tom McClean was specifically asked about this interpretation

1036
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: and a piece in the Guardian, and he got a

1037
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 1: little testy. He said, as I've told people you're gonna

1038
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: call Elvis the king the king, and my song is

1039
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 1: a thorny crown, and only Jesus had a thorny crown.

1040
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 1: I think I was very clear about that there's a

1041
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 1: lot of reasons why I don't turn this into a

1042
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 1: board game, because it's not American pies and impressionistic peace.

1043
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 1: So okay, he's no help there. There are others who

1044
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 1: go back to the Kennedy interpretation and that the jester

1045
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: was Lee Harvey Oswald stealing the thorny crown from Kennedy

1046
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 1: by assassinating him. Uh. This interpretation is bolstered by the

1047
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 1: next line of the song, no verdict was returned, the

1048
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 1: courtroom was adjourned, meaning that the nation got a never

1049
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: concrete answer or closure regarding the assassination of JFK and

1050
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 1: Don mcclus talked a great deal about the impact that

1051
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 1: both the assassination and the fallout surrounding the controversies and

1052
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories had on his generation, and he said the

1053
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 1: institutions began failing in the sixties because people didn't believe

1054
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 1: in them anymore. My little theories that we were brought

1055
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 1: up on rock and roll and God and country and

1056
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 1: Western movies and morality plays about right and wrong. Everyone

1057
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 1: knew hop along Cassidy and Roy Rogers and their code

1058
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 1: of conduct. After Kennedy was killed, I read Mark Lanes

1059
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 1: rushed to Judgment, which was a very famous book in

1060
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: the mid sixties disputing the war in Commission Findings that

1061
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:05,960
Speaker 1: Lee Harpy Oswald act alone and killing JFK and Don

1062
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 1: McLean said, all of us were in college realizing that

1063
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:12,000
Speaker 1: the government was withholding information about the assassination and still

1064
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 1: is um I looked to pause right here. You know how,

1065
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: there's this theory that the Zodiac Killer was never caught

1066
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 1: because there was actually two people working as a conspiracy

1067
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: and that's why all the evidence never added up the conviction.

1068
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 1: I almost wonder if that's the case with these lyrics,

1069
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 1: Like a lyric will have context in relation to the

1070
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: line before it, and then that context will change when

1071
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 1: you hear the line after it. So perhaps there are

1072
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 1: multiple theories that are correct about the same lines, like

1073
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 1: Schroedinger's interpretation. By merely speaking about it, you change the

1074
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: context of it. Yes, exactly. Yeah, that these metaphorical figures

1075
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 1: and archetypes have multiple meanings simultaneously. That could be what's

1076
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 1: happening with this song. I think if anything has ever

1077
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:58,240
Speaker 1: summed up the dichotomy of your personality, it is waxing

1078
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:01,920
Speaker 1: rhapsodic about the interpretationtions of American Pie and somehow connecting

1079
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 1: it to the zodiac and JFK and jf K yeah yeah,

1080
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:09,439
Speaker 1: And now we're going into my beloved Beatles. Here we go. Great,

1081
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,160
Speaker 1: we got this is really I mean, no wonder. I

1082
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 1: wanted to do this episode so badly. While Lennon read

1083
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 1: a book on Marks, the Quartet practiced in the park.

1084
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 1: And this could be a fantastic bit of wordplay referencing

1085
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 1: John Lennon reading up on communism and singing about revolution

1086
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 1: as he did in eight, although in the single version

1087
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 1: of Revolution he doesn't know if he's four or against

1088
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 1: Chairman Mao. He sings count me out in in the

1089
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:36,200
Speaker 1: single version, but it could also be about the rise

1090
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:39,440
Speaker 1: of the Soviet Bloc in Eastern Europe, and the Quartet

1091
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 1: practicing in the park could be a reference to the

1092
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:45,120
Speaker 1: Beatles playing huge stadiums like Shay Stadium or Candlestick Park.

1093
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:49,439
Speaker 1: The World may Never Know verse four. In verse four,

1094
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 1: we find the chaos of the sixties in full force,

1095
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 1: helter skelter in a summer swelter, obviously a reference to

1096
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 1: the Manson murders and possibly the riots in the summer

1097
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 1: of sixty eight culminating in the clash between protesters and

1098
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 1: cops in Chicago at the Democratic National Convention that August.

1099
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 1: The Birds flew off to a fallout shelter eight miles

1100
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 1: High and fallen fast, obviously a reference to the Bird's

1101
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: song eight miles High, perhaps a reference to the center

1102
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 1: of the music world, shifting from l A, where the

1103
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 1: Birds are from, to San Francisco and sixty sixty seven

1104
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 1: with the Jester on the sidelines in a cast. The

1105
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 1: next line more mounting evidence that the Jesters indeed Bob Dylan,

1106
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 1: because nineteen sixty six and nineteen sixty seven marked the

1107
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 1: period of his semi mythical motorcycle accident and lengthy period

1108
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 1: of recuperation, during which he withdrew from the music industry entirely.

1109
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 1: The halftime air was Sweet Perfume while the Sergeants played

1110
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 1: a marching tune. My interpretation of that is that it's

1111
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,919
Speaker 1: another reference to the Beatles, who released Sergeant Pepper's Lonely

1112
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:53,440
Speaker 1: Ards Club Band on June one, nineteen sixty seven, kicking

1113
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 1: off the also semi mythical Summer of Love. Uh they

1114
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:59,840
Speaker 1: became the Sergeants who led the March of the counterculture,

1115
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 1: thus leaving Dylan a k a. The gesture behind on

1116
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 1: the sidelines in a cast. But at the peak of

1117
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 1: the sweetly perfumed summer, there was civil unrest. We all

1118
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: got up to dance, but we never got the chance,

1119
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 1: he sings. He looked on as players try to take

1120
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 1: the field, but the marching band refused to yield. This

1121
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 1: line alone is hotly debated. Many say that the marching

1122
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 1: band could have been police blocking civil rights protesters. Others

1123
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 1: say it's the Beatles preaching non violence with their nineteen

1124
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:32,280
Speaker 1: sixty seven hit All You Need Is Love, verse five,

1125
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 1: another chorus, and then we're in the verse five. Oh,

1126
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:39,440
Speaker 1: and there we were all in one place, a generation

1127
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 1: lost in space with no time left to start again.

1128
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 1: This seems to be the summer of sixty nine, when

1129
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 1: the Youth Generation gathered at Woodstock, just weeks after Neil

1130
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:51,000
Speaker 1: Armstrong became the very first human to walk on the moon.

1131
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 1: Flash forward a few months to the Rolling Stones concert

1132
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: at Altamont in December of sixty nine, when drug use

1133
01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 1: led to violence at the hands of the Hell's Angels.

1134
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 1: While the Stone is performed, opening with their new single

1135
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 1: Jumping Jack Flash and as Don sings, so come on

1136
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 1: Jack be nimble, Jack be quick Jack Flash sat on

1137
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 1: a candlestick because fire is the devil's only friend. And

1138
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:16,439
Speaker 1: as I watched him on the stage, my hands were

1139
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:19,959
Speaker 1: clenched in fists of rage. No angel born in hell

1140
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 1: could break that Satan's spell. Angel Boord in Hell seems

1141
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 1: to me like a reference to the Hell's Angels, which

1142
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 1: would make Satan Mick Jagger. I guess, um Satan's spell

1143
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:35,520
Speaker 1: Hell's Angels couldn't break it. I don't know. Um rhymes

1144
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 1: and this song make me want to hear the Beastie

1145
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:41,440
Speaker 1: Boys cover this just so they can do that classic

1146
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 1: like eighties wrap thing being like oh. And as I

1147
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 1: watched him on then they all yelled stage, my hands

1148
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 1: were clenched in fists of bridge. No angel born in

1149
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 1: hell could break that Satan spell. That was that was

1150
01:03:56,800 --> 01:04:03,360
Speaker 1: That was terrible. I love that, my God. Uh. Some

1151
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 1: interpret Don McLeay and his holding Mick Jagger and the

1152
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 1: rest of the stones responsible for the death at Altamont

1153
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 1: as anyone who see in the Masals documentary Gimmi Shelter

1154
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 1: could probably a test. And he continues with the line

1155
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 1: and as the flames climbed high into the night, to

1156
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:21,440
Speaker 1: light the sacrificial right. I saw Satan laughing with delight

1157
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:25,920
Speaker 1: the day the music died. Trend is three line stretch

1158
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 1: of end rhymes there, that's the only line in this

1159
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 1: actually like it sounds like black Sabbath. I do want

1160
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 1: to personally thank Don for not re releasing this song

1161
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:40,560
Speaker 1: after Woodstock ninety nine, which seems like a missed opportunity

1162
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 1: for him to make money and also get on his

1163
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 1: eye horse about this, with Stuck ninety nine, of course

1164
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 1: famously being a orgy of destruction, arson and rape during

1165
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 1: which the Red Hot Shelly Peppers covered Jimmie hendricks Is

1166
01:04:54,240 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 1: Fire and when Biscuit covered their own song break Stuff,

1167
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 1: leading people to set things on fire and break stuff

1168
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 1: all right, in a way, we could have seen that

1169
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 1: coming just reading the set list as an instruction manual.

1170
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 1: Really prophetic boy. And then finally we slow it down

1171
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 1: for the final verse. I met a girl who sang

1172
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 1: the blues and asked her for some happy news, but

1173
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 1: she just smiled and turned away a line I never

1174
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 1: really made this connection. The line believed to be about

1175
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 1: Janice Joplin and her death in October of nineteen, and

1176
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:34,960
Speaker 1: Dawn heads down to the sacred store, the record store

1177
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 1: where he heard the music years before. But a man

1178
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:41,800
Speaker 1: there said the music wouldn't play. And this could be

1179
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:43,919
Speaker 1: a metaphor, or it could be a very literal meaning.

1180
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 1: Record stores used to have listening booths for kids to

1181
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 1: sample songs before they bought them, which was basically how

1182
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:51,360
Speaker 1: poor kids used to hear music on the cheap. It's

1183
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:53,960
Speaker 1: how the Beatles used to hang out at record stores

1184
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:56,240
Speaker 1: and crib the lyrics to the songs that they wanted

1185
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 1: to play on their set because they couldn't afford to

1186
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:00,800
Speaker 1: buy them. So it's kind of a crucial place for

1187
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 1: low resource kids to experience music. But by the seventies,

1188
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:08,920
Speaker 1: most stories had abandoned this practice, so that could be

1189
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:10,360
Speaker 1: it's kind of a stretch, but could be what that

1190
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 1: line means. And in the streets, the children screamed, the

1191
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 1: lovers cried, and the poets dreamed, but not a word

1192
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:20,720
Speaker 1: was spoken. The church bells all were broken. The sixties

1193
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:23,120
Speaker 1: dream had died. There's rioting in the streets. We live

1194
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:26,520
Speaker 1: in a godless world, and any references the Holy Trinity,

1195
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 1: the three men he admires most, the Father of the Son,

1196
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 1: and the Holy Ghost. Catching the last train for the Coast,

1197
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:35,560
Speaker 1: one of the most mysterious lines in the song. There

1198
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 1: are some who believe that this is a reference to

1199
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 1: the three um most uh generationally scarring assassinations of the era.

1200
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:47,840
Speaker 1: I guess you could say John F. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy,

1201
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:50,320
Speaker 1: and Martin Luther King. There are others who think that

1202
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 1: this is a reference to the three men killed in

1203
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:55,320
Speaker 1: the plane crash, Buddy Holly, Ritchie Vallens and the Big Bopper.

1204
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:59,120
Speaker 1: And it's also an interesting bookend to the line do

1205
01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 1: you have faith? Thank God above? Because the Bible tells

1206
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 1: you so? From earlier in the song. In nine six

1207
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 1: there was a famous cover on Time magazine that read

1208
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:11,080
Speaker 1: is God Dead? And that kind of seemed to be

1209
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:15,000
Speaker 1: the prevailing notion at the time and now, and in

1210
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:17,960
Speaker 1: interviews that Don's given it sounds like he was really

1211
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:21,720
Speaker 1: more in the loss of people's connection with God. And

1212
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:25,200
Speaker 1: then we close with a final chorus backed with the

1213
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 1: help of James Taylor, Carly Simon Livingston Taylor, and Pete Seeger,

1214
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 1: and we are out. So what does this all mean? Hi?

1215
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:38,880
Speaker 1: What does this all mean? Well? I think the Father

1216
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 1: Son and Holy Ghost is pretty self explanatory. Buddy Holly is,

1217
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 1: of course the father. Ritchie Vallen's at the age of

1218
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 1: seventeen is the son, which would make the Big Bopper

1219
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:53,840
Speaker 1: the holy ghost, um, which I believe in personally myself.

1220
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 1: You imagine being haunted by the Big Bopper. It just

1221
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 1: like in your room late at night, from your trying

1222
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:05,040
Speaker 1: to look up in the corner. He's like spread there

1223
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:11,040
Speaker 1: like the Exorcist, going in a checkered sports code all

1224
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 1: they got old fifties rotary style phone doing his in

1225
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:18,320
Speaker 1: the afterlife. Um, Rosemaries Baby, it's also sixty eight had

1226
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:21,360
Speaker 1: come out and um, there's that line. God is dead,

1227
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 1: God is dead, Satan live, Satan, Satan lives. This is

1228
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:29,800
Speaker 1: year one, the years one. Yeah, yeah, So maybe Don

1229
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:35,559
Speaker 1: McLean saw Rosemary's Baby. All right. So we mentioned earlier

1230
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:39,400
Speaker 1: that Don McLean, as he's wont to do, took credit

1231
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:43,759
Speaker 1: for this song creating a resurgence in the interest around

1232
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 1: Buddy Holly, and I regret to inform you he was

1233
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:49,960
Speaker 1: correct about that. Uh. And the song did go a

1234
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:53,360
Speaker 1: long way in revitalizing interest in Holly and directly led

1235
01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:59,120
Speaker 1: to the nine biopic The Body Holly Story starring Gary Busey,

1236
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:02,960
Speaker 1: who probably mean that probably means go go, Gary can

1237
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 1: thank Don for his career. Uh. McLean has said, if

1238
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:09,160
Speaker 1: you talk to Maria Lena, the widowed bride mentioned in

1239
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:11,679
Speaker 1: the lyrics, she will tell you that Buddy got more

1240
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 1: publicity after I wrote my song than he'd ever got

1241
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:17,600
Speaker 1: in his life. I know it sounds self serving, but

1242
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:20,040
Speaker 1: if you check it out, you will find that out.

1243
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:24,520
Speaker 1: And that started the whole thing going. The renewed popularity

1244
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 1: of Buddy meant that writer John gold Rosen has said

1245
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 1: he was finally able to get his hollibiography published and

1246
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:32,559
Speaker 1: that was the book that got adapted into the Buddy

1247
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:36,840
Speaker 1: Holly story starring Gary Busey. There's a very nice, uh sweet,

1248
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:40,360
Speaker 1: full circle moment. McLean autographed the wall at the Surf

1249
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:43,759
Speaker 1: Ballroom where Buddy played his last gig just hours before

1250
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:48,200
Speaker 1: he died. Although he was pleased to shine some light

1251
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:51,640
Speaker 1: on his hero, McLean has been frustrated that many have

1252
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:54,439
Speaker 1: reduced American Pie to just a story about Buddy Holly.

1253
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:56,439
Speaker 1: He said, the fact that Buddy Holly seems to be

1254
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 1: the primary thing that people talk about when they talk

1255
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:02,040
Speaker 1: about American Pie is kind of sad but fine with me,

1256
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:05,800
Speaker 1: because only the beginning is about Buddy Holly, and the

1257
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:07,640
Speaker 1: rest of it goes on and talks about America, on

1258
01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 1: politics in the country, and trying to catch some kind

1259
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:12,679
Speaker 1: of a special feeling that I had about my country,

1260
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:16,520
Speaker 1: especially in nineteen seventy and seventy one, which was very turbulent.

1261
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:21,160
Speaker 1: But one person we have not heard from in relation

1262
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:25,640
Speaker 1: to this song is Bob Dylan. That's right, folks. He

1263
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 1: did not appreciate the implication that he was the jester

1264
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 1: in the song, addressing it during a rare interview in Seen,

1265
01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:34,040
Speaker 1: in which he said, yeah, American Pie, what a song

1266
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:38,799
Speaker 1: that is, which is such a tremendous bit of shade.

1267
01:10:41,040 --> 01:10:44,760
Speaker 1: He continued, a jester. Sure, the jester writes songs like

1268
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:47,599
Speaker 1: Masters of War, A hard reign is gonna fall, and

1269
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:51,080
Speaker 1: it's all right, ma some gesture. I have to think

1270
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 1: he's talking about somebody else. Then Dylan adds asked him

1271
01:10:56,640 --> 01:11:01,599
Speaker 1: talk about man Dylan interview are on this Dylan can

1272
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:04,759
Speaker 1: still pull out the knives. That is a murderous quote,

1273
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 1: name dropping three iconic songs against one piece of I

1274
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 1: love that. Uh. Someone did subsequently asked on because people

1275
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 1: keep doing that as recently as McLean replied, I can't

1276
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:24,000
Speaker 1: tell you, but he would make a damn good jester,

1277
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:26,920
Speaker 1: wouldn't He didn't Steeler's Wheel, didn't. They also call him

1278
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:31,120
Speaker 1: the stuck in The jokers still left me, Oh jester, joker.

1279
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:34,439
Speaker 1: These people gotta stop clowning on Dylan man ah. He

1280
01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:37,439
Speaker 1: then went on to add the Dylan's son, Jacob, no

1281
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:41,160
Speaker 1: stranger of course, to the machinations of music industry. Nepotism

1282
01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:44,439
Speaker 1: asked him the same question, and he didn't tell Jacob

1283
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:50,120
Speaker 1: Dylan either. But yes, the lore around the American Pie

1284
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:53,400
Speaker 1: has only grown over the years. And in the working

1285
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:56,799
Speaker 1: manuscript that Don McLean used to write the song sold

1286
01:11:56,800 --> 01:12:01,040
Speaker 1: that auction for one point two million, and considering the

1287
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 1: song is nearly nine minutes long, it should come as

1288
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:07,280
Speaker 1: no surprise that this manuscript ran to sixteen pages, many

1289
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:10,360
Speaker 1: ripped out of a spiral notebook, and it contains lines

1290
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:13,000
Speaker 1: that didn't make the final cut, including and there I

1291
01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:16,040
Speaker 1: stood alone and afraid, I knelt to my knees, and

1292
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:18,600
Speaker 1: there I prayed, and I prepared to give all I

1293
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:23,280
Speaker 1: had to give if only he would make it live again. Uh.

1294
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:25,360
Speaker 1: Dawn claimed that he would give away some of the

1295
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:28,280
Speaker 1: secrets of the song when it was auctioned off, and

1296
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:31,719
Speaker 1: I think in the auction booklet he confirmed the theories

1297
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:34,640
Speaker 1: about Dylan and the Jester, Elvis and the King, and

1298
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:37,559
Speaker 1: the climax of the song at Altimat, so basically the

1299
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:42,559
Speaker 1: more obvious ones he confirmed. But this manuscript sold to

1300
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:45,920
Speaker 1: an unnamed buyer for one point two million, which I

1301
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:50,160
Speaker 1: believe made it the ninth highest selling either manuscript or

1302
01:12:50,240 --> 01:12:53,040
Speaker 1: lyric sheet of all time. Either way a lot of money.

1303
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:55,920
Speaker 1: And the hilarious part is that Dawn had more or

1304
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:59,599
Speaker 1: less forgotten that he even had the manuscript until Rolling

1305
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:03,519
Speaker 1: Stone editor Ben fong Torres asked him about possibly giving

1306
01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:05,599
Speaker 1: this manuscript to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame,

1307
01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:08,960
Speaker 1: and oh yeah that oh he said, he wasn't even

1308
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:10,880
Speaker 1: sure if he still had it, and then he went

1309
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:13,519
Speaker 1: looking for it, dug it out, and instead of donating

1310
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:15,120
Speaker 1: into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame like Ben

1311
01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:18,880
Speaker 1: functorres asked, he promptly put it up for auction, which

1312
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:22,640
Speaker 1: is hilarious. I hope that he cut Ben Functores in

1313
01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:27,439
Speaker 1: at least um done discussed the sale just before the

1314
01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:30,680
Speaker 1: auction in rolling style. I believe I'm going to be

1315
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:33,320
Speaker 1: seventy this year. I have two children and a wife,

1316
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:36,880
Speaker 1: and none of them seem to have the mercantile instinct.

1317
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:39,880
Speaker 1: I want to get the best deal I ken for them.

1318
01:13:40,080 --> 01:13:43,680
Speaker 1: It's time. And he's spoken at length about wanting to

1319
01:13:43,680 --> 01:13:45,960
Speaker 1: sell all of his stuff before he dies, like song,

1320
01:13:46,040 --> 01:13:51,200
Speaker 1: lyric sheets, guns, saddles, hunting knives, banjo's guitars, custom boots,

1321
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:54,640
Speaker 1: his car. It's this funny mishmash of like this Buddhist

1322
01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:59,559
Speaker 1: sense of cleansing and also deep control freak sensibilities. I'm

1323
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:03,080
Speaker 1: really uscinated by that. Oh boy, tell us more about

1324
01:14:03,160 --> 01:14:07,120
Speaker 1: Don McLean's lust for the Hobbits gold. Yes, he's very

1325
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:09,880
Speaker 1: good at making money again. He claimed a few years

1326
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:11,719
Speaker 1: back to have a massed a fortune of a hundred

1327
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:15,639
Speaker 1: and fifty million dollars. He majored in finance and minored

1328
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:18,960
Speaker 1: in philosophy, which I think is such a fascinating insight

1329
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:22,439
Speaker 1: into his psyche. He owns his song catalog and licenses

1330
01:14:22,479 --> 01:14:25,720
Speaker 1: American pie out to ads, including one for Chevy in

1331
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:28,920
Speaker 1: two thousand two, appropriately enough, and they also had another

1332
01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:33,160
Speaker 1: fantastic slogan, they don't write songs about Volvos, which is

1333
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 1: pretty good ad copy for Chevy. I like that Dawn

1334
01:14:37,080 --> 01:14:39,559
Speaker 1: also took a page from the Jimmy Buffett Margharita Ville

1335
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:43,400
Speaker 1: playbook and trademark titles and phrases from his biggest songs,

1336
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:47,280
Speaker 1: including American Pie, Starry Starry Night, The Day the Music Died,

1337
01:14:47,439 --> 01:14:49,479
Speaker 1: and Bye Bye Miss American Pie. Do we have to

1338
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:51,080
Speaker 1: pay him now that we've said these on the show?

1339
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:54,760
Speaker 1: Almost as certainly? Um, And he says as much on

1340
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:56,760
Speaker 1: his website, which I think is a weird thing to

1341
01:14:56,760 --> 01:14:59,800
Speaker 1: brag about, unless it's just meant as a warning. This

1342
01:14:59,880 --> 01:15:03,120
Speaker 1: is the same website that claims that his song Tapestry

1343
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:06,679
Speaker 1: led to the creation of Greenpeace. So um, his website

1344
01:15:06,680 --> 01:15:12,240
Speaker 1: is full of fun facts lies. There are multiple songs

1345
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 1: written about Volvo's by the way, really yes Volvo Cowgirl

1346
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:19,960
Speaker 1: nine by Cheryl Crowe, the b side to one of

1347
01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:24,280
Speaker 1: her early singles, an Old Vovo by Tom and Ellen Demaris,

1348
01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:28,479
Speaker 1: recorded by a couple in Oregon that made it on

1349
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:32,799
Speaker 1: car Talk. Sorry, I just wanted to contradict Don McLean

1350
01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:36,400
Speaker 1: to every puzzle, But these trademarked phrases came in handy

1351
01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:40,320
Speaker 1: when Universal Studios made its American Pie film franchises in

1352
01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:44,400
Speaker 1: the late nineties. Don McLean reportedly collected an undisclosed sum

1353
01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:47,920
Speaker 1: for using his title, because nothing sums up the death

1354
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:50,719
Speaker 1: of the American Dream better than a sexually frustrated team

1355
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:54,760
Speaker 1: pleasuring himself with a baked good. Yes. McLean is a

1356
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:58,040
Speaker 1: candy businessman who follows in the footsteps of old fashion

1357
01:15:58,120 --> 01:16:02,360
Speaker 1: management figures like Elvis's manager, Colonel Tom Parker, and he's

1358
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:07,120
Speaker 1: also unbothered by the sizeable population, including my friend Alex Higel,

1359
01:16:07,439 --> 01:16:11,760
Speaker 1: who find American Pie annoying. He said that he's considered

1360
01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:15,519
Speaker 1: printing up I hate American Pie buttons because that's what

1361
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:18,280
Speaker 1: the Colonel did with Elvis. He wanted both sides. I

1362
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:21,519
Speaker 1: hate Elvis and I love Elvis. I hate American Pie.

1363
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:25,439
Speaker 1: I love American Pie. Not the original thought in his head.

1364
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:30,520
Speaker 1: And there you have it. Nihilistic capitalism is the illogical

1365
01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:36,519
Speaker 1: conclusion to the American Dream. Bye bye, Ms, American Pie,

1366
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:38,920
Speaker 1: and well, folks, I think it's time to say bye

1367
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:43,960
Speaker 1: bye to this episode. I will give the final word

1368
01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:47,639
Speaker 1: to producer Ed Freeman, who said that American Pie helped

1369
01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:52,599
Speaker 1: close the book on the tumultuous sixties. He said, without

1370
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 1: this song, many of us would not have been able

1371
01:16:54,880 --> 01:16:58,720
Speaker 1: to achieve closure and move on. Don saw that and

1372
01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:01,880
Speaker 1: wrote the song That's set us free. We should all

1373
01:17:01,920 --> 01:17:06,519
Speaker 1: be eternally grateful for that. Here that high go, We're free, Geetie,

1374
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:14,639
Speaker 1: You're free. Yeah. Any any final screams, any final thought?

1375
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:19,879
Speaker 1: I like that. All I can say is you've outdone yourself.

1376
01:17:20,280 --> 01:17:22,439
Speaker 1: How so? I can't think of something else that would

1377
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:24,960
Speaker 1: anger me this much. I watched the razor Head for you.

1378
01:17:25,120 --> 01:17:27,519
Speaker 1: That's true. You did. That's true. You did, which took

1379
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:31,960
Speaker 1: less time than this and Margaritaville combined. You could have

1380
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:34,360
Speaker 1: watched four eraser heads in the amount of time that

1381
01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:37,720
Speaker 1: I have now dedicated to listening to your what's the

1382
01:17:38,320 --> 01:17:44,280
Speaker 1: guy from Zodiac, the journalist Gray Smith? Yea to listen

1383
01:17:44,320 --> 01:17:47,760
Speaker 1: to your grace Smithy and investigations into some of the

1384
01:17:47,800 --> 01:17:51,040
Speaker 1: worst songs of all time. Um No, I don't have

1385
01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:53,200
Speaker 1: anything more to say to this. You know he could

1386
01:17:53,200 --> 01:17:58,880
Speaker 1: probably have me killed. Um m hmm, many times over,

1387
01:17:59,080 --> 01:18:03,479
Speaker 1: many times over. Alright, Well, if you've broken you've you've

1388
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:06,320
Speaker 1: broken me. We'll do Bruce Lee in the next episode.

1389
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:14,839
Speaker 1: Jordan's Folks, Jordan's one, Jordan one, Jordan One. Well, folks,

1390
01:18:16,479 --> 01:18:18,799
Speaker 1: thanks so much for listening. My name is Jordan Ronzog,

1391
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:29,360
Speaker 1: Alex Tagel. I Will catch You next Time. Too Much

1392
01:18:29,360 --> 01:18:32,120
Speaker 1: Information was a production of I Heart Radio. The show's

1393
01:18:32,160 --> 01:18:35,200
Speaker 1: executive producers are Noel Brown and Jordan run Talk. The

1394
01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:38,839
Speaker 1: supervising producer is Mike John's. The show was researched, written

1395
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:41,559
Speaker 1: and hosted by Jordan run Talk and Alex Hegel, with

1396
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:44,599
Speaker 1: original music by Seth Applebaum and the Ghost Funk Orchestra.

1397
01:18:45,080 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 1: If you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave

1398
01:18:47,200 --> 01:18:49,679
Speaker 1: us a review. For more podcasts and I heart Radio,

1399
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:52,880
Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever

1400
01:18:52,920 --> 01:19:02,360
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. No back track past

1401
01:19:03,680 --> 01:19:03,720
Speaker 1: and