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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 4: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 1: You are now liable to being accused of a felony

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Speaker 1: for the expression of your political views that somehow align

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Speaker 1: with the interests of a terrorist group, like hey, we

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Speaker 1: should leave the Middle East, or saying we should leave

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Speaker 1: Ukraine and that somehow is deemed pro Russian speech.

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Speaker 4: I can't think of a graver assault on.

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Speaker 1: The rate of pre speed than criminal and criminalizing political

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Speaker 1: activism of that sort.

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Speaker 5: That's nonsense, And you're being disingenuous and leveling those kinds

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Speaker 5: of accusations. There's a difference between giving a speech saying

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Speaker 5: Israel is being illegitimate, they're engaged in genocide, this is

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Speaker 5: all wrong, this is bad, we shouldn't support them, and

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Speaker 5: chanting from the river to the sea Israel should be gone,

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Speaker 5: kill all the use any jew you see today, punch

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Speaker 5: them in the face.

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Speaker 4: No playing those groups were doing that.

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Speaker 6: Welcome to Counterpoints. We're glad to be here on a Friday,

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Speaker 6: a Thursday night. If you're a premium subscriber breaking Points

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Speaker 6: dot com, if you want to subscribe to the premium

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Speaker 6: version of the show, you get the whole thing in

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Speaker 6: your inbox Thursday nights.

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Speaker 7: The rest of you. Happy Friday, Ryan.

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Speaker 6: We always enjoy being here on a Friday, especially for

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Speaker 6: the subject matter that we're going to tackle today.

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Speaker 8: Yes, indeed, and we're going to be joined by two

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Speaker 8: people debating, And first of all, we can talk about

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Speaker 8: the format first, Like you and I are moderators, but

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Speaker 8: we have opinions too, Yes, and I saw that the

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Speaker 8: audience was a little bit upset that we also were

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Speaker 8: injecting some of our own opinions. You're just gonna have

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Speaker 8: to deal with that, you mean you, yeah, yes, me.

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Speaker 8: We're moderators, but we have an opinion. So it's okay,

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Speaker 8: it's okay. And these are grown ups. They're going to

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Speaker 8: be able to handle it. So let's introduce these grown ups.

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Speaker 8: We have Glenn Greenwald, who is a Pulitzer prize winning journalist.

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Speaker 8: That's right, and also the host of System Update and Glenn,

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Speaker 8: where else can people fine and subscribe to your stuff?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we do a lot of written original journalism on Locals,

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Speaker 1: which is the sort of substack of the Roman platform,

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Speaker 1: so people can find us there as well.

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Speaker 8: All right, right, and then Ilia Shapiros current title was

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Speaker 8: Senior Fellow and Director of Constitutional Studies at the Manhattan Institute.

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Speaker 8: Ilia and Glenn, thanks so much for joining us.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, great to be with you guys.

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Speaker 5: And just to be clear, at the outset of this debate,

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Speaker 5: I'm taking the pro speech pro law position, So I

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Speaker 5: don't know what that makes plain, Well.

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Speaker 1: That's the Yeah, I'm the pro censorship, anti law, pro

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Speaker 1: crime position.

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Speaker 9: Right.

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Speaker 3: See, we're going to.

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Speaker 6: Assess all of this out, yeah, exactly, because these are

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Speaker 6: some genuinely interesting questions. And to begin, we have a

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Speaker 6: video of some protests that happen at MIT recently where

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Speaker 6: students are overrunning a fence that was erected to keep

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Speaker 6: them out of an encampment. Let's roll this type again.

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Speaker 6: So if you were just listening to that, you were

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Speaker 6: listening to students just get rid of a fence basically

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Speaker 6: was keeping them out of an encampment at MIT. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: I saw this video because you I think you retweeted

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Speaker 6: it and the caption on the retweet was quote expel

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Speaker 6: and arrest.

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Speaker 7: And I think this is a.

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Speaker 6: Good place to start, actually, because it's sort of getting

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Speaker 6: into the question of how universities can tackle the question

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Speaker 6: of free speech when it comes to these protests. And

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Speaker 6: MIT was obviously in the hot seat with this right

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Speaker 6: after October seventh, when the president of MIT, Sally Kornboth,

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Speaker 6: was in that infamous can rational hearing. So Eliot, let's

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Speaker 6: start with you expel and arrest the students who tore

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Speaker 6: down that fence, their flesh out that point for us.

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Speaker 5: Sure, I'm basically with Ben Sas, the president of the

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Speaker 5: Newarky of Florida, the deer Meyer, the president of Vanderbilt,

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Speaker 5: who've been putting out op eds and stating that they

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Speaker 5: are broadly protective of speech as am.

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Speaker 9: I fully agree with that.

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Speaker 5: But when you analyze the situation, you have to understand

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Speaker 5: that not everything is speech. That is, if you're taking

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Speaker 5: actions that break the rules, break the law, whether it's vandalism, assault,

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Speaker 5: or anything else, you don't get a pass if you're

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Speaker 5: doing it for an expressive purpose, whether that's political, artistic,

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Speaker 5: or otherwise. Then there's some speech that's simply not protected

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Speaker 5: death threats or incitement of violence. Pretty high bar according

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Speaker 5: to Supreme Court jurisprudence. And then there are time, place,

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Speaker 5: and manner regulations. And this is central to this debate.

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Speaker 5: So in the campus context, you can't block access to

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Speaker 5: educational facilities, you can't disrupt classes or organized student meetings

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Speaker 5: that have been duly reserved and things like that. You

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Speaker 5: can't harass and intimidate. There are rules about these sorts

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Speaker 5: of things. In the off campus context, the equivalent is,

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Speaker 5: even though we care about political speech, I can't go

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Speaker 5: to your neighborhood in the middle of the night and

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Speaker 5: with a bullhorn tell you exactly what I think about

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump and Joe Biden. That's disturbing the peace. So

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Speaker 5: here there are clear rules. You get to speak and

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Speaker 5: protest as long as you're not disrupting the event, disrupting classes,

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Speaker 5: otherwise preventing the university from achieving its educational mission. And

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Speaker 5: so these are clear law breakers. Rule breakers and actions

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Speaker 5: have consequences.

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Speaker 8: Glenn, I don't think anybody believes that there should be

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Speaker 8: no laws, but what's your response to the claim that

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Speaker 8: these particular protesters ought to be expelled or arrested, or

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Speaker 8: in general, that the protesters need to be thoroughly cracked

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Speaker 8: down on because they broke some laws.

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Speaker 1: I think the only way to determine the authenticity of

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Speaker 1: somebody's beliefs about free speech, defensive free speech, their interpretation

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Speaker 1: of free speech, The only way is whether they apply

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Speaker 1: standards consistently to the views that they most hate and

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Speaker 1: the views that they most like. Now, Ilia is a

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Speaker 1: fanatical supporter of Israel and the protesters, who's the crackdown

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Speaker 1: on whom he's defending or expressing a view and defending

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Speaker 1: a cause that he vehemently dislikes. What I think is

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Speaker 1: so important to point out is there's a historical context here.

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Speaker 1: It's not as though the crackdown on student groups began

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Speaker 1: only with these encampments. Immediately after October seventh, we began

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Speaker 1: seeing all sorts of attempts to stifle political speech, the

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Speaker 1: most extreme of which was when Ron DeSantis ordered pro

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Speaker 1: Palestinian groups to be shut down on all University of

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Speaker 1: Florida campuses, a move that the only real non partisan

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Speaker 1: free speech organization in the country fire dot org said

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Speaker 1: was not only a grave assault on the First Amendment

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Speaker 1: for the speed rights of pro Palestinian students, but was

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Speaker 1: such an obvious and glaring violation the First Amendment that

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Speaker 1: they wrote a letter to university administrators or urging them

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Speaker 1: to ignore the order by Governor Desantos. There have been

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Speaker 1: a lot of those kinds of attacks well before these

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Speaker 1: encampments arose, and of course before October seventh, one of

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Speaker 1: the most common forms of censorship on political campuses and

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Speaker 1: elsewhere were attempts to silent Jewish students. There have been

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Speaker 1: all pro Palestinian students. Rather, there have been professors who

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Speaker 1: have been fired for criticizing Israel. There have been student

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Speaker 1: groups whose application to exist have been denied because they're

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Speaker 1: pro Palestinian. Fire dot org has been defending these people

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Speaker 1: for a long time. So a lot of conservatives waive

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Speaker 1: the free speech banner when it comes to targeting conservative speech,

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Speaker 1: and I do too, I defend that speech, and yet

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Speaker 1: suddenly abandon those standards as soon as it comes to

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Speaker 1: the cause that they most love or the speech they

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Speaker 1: most hate, which is criticism of Israel. The other thing

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Speaker 1: I want to point out is, of course it's the

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Speaker 1: case that if you engage in violence, you should be arrested.

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Speaker 4: The problem is a lot of the violence, I.

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Speaker 1: Would even say most recently has come from pro Palestinian

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Speaker 1: counter pro israel counter protesters.

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Speaker 4: They showed up at a camp.

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Speaker 1: At ACLU at the UCLA and began violently hurling objects

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Speaker 1: and using tear gas and injured a bunch of pro

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Speaker 1: Palestinian protesters at the camp. There's a study that was

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Speaker 1: just released by a group that follows public crises and

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Speaker 1: safety crises that said that ninety nine percent of the

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Speaker 1: protests that have been taking place on campus have been peaceful,

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Speaker 1: and the one percent that wasn't was things like the

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Speaker 1: UCLA one. And you know, there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: protests that use civil disobedience. One of the protest movements

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Speaker 1: that conservatives most revere and most champion in Herald and

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Speaker 1: defended was the Trucker's protest in Canada, which was designed

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Speaker 1: to protest the Trudeau government's mandates for COVID vaccines as

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Speaker 1: a way to keep your job. And yet they use

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Speaker 1: civil disobedience state blow streets. They prevented ours from passing

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Speaker 1: all the time in Toronto, and yet the crackdown on

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Speaker 1: this protest was deemed tyrannical by conservatives because in that

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Speaker 1: case they agreed with the cause. So I think the

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Speaker 1: context here is important. Of course, of protesters attack Jewish students,

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Speaker 1: which has not been happening, I mean using violence, And

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Speaker 1: even if the ones who are blocking ingress and egress,

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Speaker 1: which I do am not comfortable with to say Okay,

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Speaker 1: you cannot do that, I'm fine with that as well.

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Speaker 1: But there has been an overall, very potent movement to

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Speaker 1: suppress and censor criticism of Israel or propalaestined speech for

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Speaker 1: a long time, and a great part of what's happening

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Speaker 1: now is a byproduct of that vision.

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Speaker 6: So, Ilia, you've been an outspoken critic of a lot

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Speaker 6: of the crackdowns on speech on campuses towards the right

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Speaker 6: in recent years that Gunn was alluding to there, Why

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Speaker 6: are you not.

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Speaker 7: A hypocrite in this case?

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Speaker 6: Basically, how do you respond to the allegation that you're

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Speaker 6: a hypocrite for wanting a crackdown in these cases with

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Speaker 6: the Propalestine student protesters.

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Speaker 5: Well, Glenn and I are in full agreement that Fire

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Speaker 5: is one of the greatest organizations in America I'm a

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Speaker 5: big fan the Foundation of Individual Rights and expression. I

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Speaker 5: spoke at their big national gala last year, and you know,

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Speaker 5: I agree with them ninety nine percent of the time.

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Speaker 5: I don't think I agree with myself one hundred percent

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Speaker 5: of the time. But fire does fantastic work, and I

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Speaker 5: defend speech and expression. But the rubber hits the road

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Speaker 5: of what happens when you're indeed violating the rules. And

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Speaker 5: Glen is getting at that when he's talking about starts

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Speaker 5: talking about civil disobedience. If indeed the anti Israel pro

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Speaker 5: Hamas protesters are engaged in civil disobedience, then what is that?

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Speaker 5: That's the willingness to suffer consequences, to go to jail,

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Speaker 5: to be expelled or disciplined, to highlight to showcase the

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Speaker 5: injustice or illegitimacy of the law or policy that they're protesting.

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Speaker 5: Think about Mahama Gandhi or Martin Luther King, the prototypical

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Speaker 5: examples of civil disobedience. It's not yelling and intimidating and

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Speaker 5: harassing and vandalizing. All of these sorts of aggressive actions

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Speaker 5: but I think are counterproductive even for their causes. And

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Speaker 5: this has nothing to do with whether you're a pro

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Speaker 5: Israel or anti Israel, Yeah, UCLA.

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Speaker 9: I don't know what exactly went down.

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Speaker 5: But to the extent that the pro Israel side was

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Speaker 5: engaged in violence, that's not good and that's not protected

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Speaker 5: speech either. So you know, I try to be principled

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Speaker 5: as much as the next guy. And we can debate

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Speaker 5: the DeSantis order about students for Justice in Palestine, which

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Speaker 5: is separate issue about organizational structure and material support for terrorism,

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Speaker 5: was the Supreme Court has held is not protected by

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Speaker 5: the First Amendment. But in terms of individual speech versus

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Speaker 5: violating the rules, I try to be very consistent. And

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Speaker 5: you know, those on the left who on October sixth

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Speaker 5: would have wanted to discipline those who use the wrong

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Speaker 5: pronouns or otherwise engage in microaggressions, you know, if they're hypocritical,

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Speaker 5: you know, there's no.

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Speaker 9: Crime against that. The Americans have the right to do so.

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Speaker 5: But again, we have to be clear about what we're

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Speaker 5: dealing with these protests, these encampments.

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Speaker 9: If you're violating neutral rules, that's a different.

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Speaker 5: Situation than engaging in free speech. And again, those university officials,

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Speaker 5: whatever they're underlying personal politics or viewpoints that have done

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Speaker 5: well in these situations have made clear that these are

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Speaker 5: the rules. We protect free speech, and we enforce our

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Speaker 5: rules against disruption or violence or blocking access or otherwise

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Speaker 5: preventing the educational institution from going about its duties.

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Speaker 1: Can I just ask ilio question quickly if you guys

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Speaker 1: don't mind so, I mean, certainly what you said described

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Speaker 1: to civil disobedience is true. Yet we have a long

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Speaker 1: tradition of distinguishing between brave acts of wild breaking that

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Speaker 1: involve violence against people, and say, students taking over a

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Speaker 1: student building for a couple of days non violently, which

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Speaker 1: though technically is a violation of campus rules, we do

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Speaker 1: as the sort of crime that narrates a thousand police

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Speaker 1: officers being sent in. But if you don't recognize that

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Speaker 1: kind of distinction, and I am interested in hearing your

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Speaker 1: views of all the other censorship examples I mentioned against

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Speaker 1: Propelstinian protests.

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Speaker 4: But let me ask you your views.

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Speaker 1: On the Canadian protest, which again became a huge cause

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Speaker 1: celeb among conservatives, among people on the right who accused

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Speaker 1: the Trudeau government of being tyrannical, of being repressive and

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Speaker 1: authoritarian because they ended with force those protests. But those

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Speaker 1: Trucker protests which I was defending, were actually engaged in

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Speaker 1: illegal behavior. They were blocking the ability of motorists to

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Speaker 1: drive to work or drive back home. That was the

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Speaker 1: whole point of the trucker's protest was they occupied roads

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Speaker 1: and didn't let anyone pass. Did you support the Trudeau

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Speaker 1: government's crackdown on them on the grounds that while technically

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Speaker 1: they're violating the law by blocking traffic and therefore they

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Speaker 1: should go to prison.

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Speaker 5: Now, even though I'm Canadian, I sort of go both

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Speaker 5: ways on the forty nine parallel.

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Speaker 9: I'm the dualist citizen.

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Speaker 5: I'm not fully up to speed on Canadian laws in

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Speaker 5: that circumstance. My understanding is Trudeau was criticized not for

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Speaker 5: enforcing simple rules against blocking public highways, but for invoking

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Speaker 5: an emergency act and just taking ultra varias beyond power

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Speaker 5: actions by the executive, by the Prime minister, whether violating federalism,

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Speaker 5: whether violating separation of powers or otherwise, and that was

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Speaker 5: where the legal concern happened. But certainly to the extent

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Speaker 5: that the truckers were, you know, blocking people's route to

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Speaker 5: work during rush hour, what have you, then those neutral

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Speaker 5: rules should should have been enforced against them, and even

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Speaker 5: though I did agree.

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Speaker 9: With the justice of their overall cause.

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Speaker 5: But the Trudeau thing was not about regular cops in action.

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Speaker 5: It was about the Prime minister cracking down, freezing bank

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Speaker 5: accounts against banking law, using emergency laws improperly, that sort

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Speaker 5: of thing.

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Speaker 8: Elly, I feel like you might be caught in a

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Speaker 8: little bit of a contradiction here at I want to

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Speaker 8: see if I'm right about that you can, if you

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Speaker 8: can sort it out. It seems like you're saying that

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Speaker 8: the severity of the crackdown is what matters. That you

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Speaker 8: would have supported some type of civil finds or some

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Speaker 8: type of and civil in the word of like just

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Speaker 8: just gentle crackdown by police, police arrest, police arrests, police

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Speaker 8: arrests of the truckers because they did violate a neutral law.

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Speaker 8: But it was when he took it to the next

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Speaker 8: level and made it this emergency response that you condemn it.

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Speaker 3: How does that square with, say, the.

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Speaker 8: NYPD sending in this like medieval siege weaponry and like

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Speaker 8: a thousand guys to like storm their way into the library,

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Speaker 8: and compare that to say, the bastion of libertarian and

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Speaker 8: libertarian intellectualism in this country, the University of Chicago, which

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Speaker 8: put out a statement saying, look, there's an encampment on

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Speaker 8: our campus right now. Many of the people there hold

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Speaker 8: odious views that we find noxious. They are technically in

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Speaker 8: violation of our campus rules and regulations. However, because of

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Speaker 8: our interest in free expression here at the University of Chicago,

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Speaker 8: as long as there's no danger to public safety, we're

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Speaker 8: going to allow this encampment to continue in the furtherance

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Speaker 8: of free expression. So why was University of Chicago wrong there?

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Speaker 8: And am I right that you're that you're okay with

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Speaker 8: a gentle crackdown on the truckers but a brutal crackdown

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Speaker 8: on the Columbia protesters?

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Speaker 3: And why why the distinction there?

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Speaker 9: No, that that's putting a lot of words in my mouth,

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Speaker 9: a lot of adjectives. I try not to use adjectives.

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Speaker 5: It's it's uh weak writing, really, But these are apples

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Speaker 5: and oranges that the trucker situation and what's going on

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Speaker 5: on campus.

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Speaker 9: You know, different.

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Speaker 5: Countries, different laws in play, different issues. The look, there's

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Speaker 5: a difference between a.

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Speaker 9: Capital crime and the death penalty, and you know.

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Speaker 5: A misdemeaner jay walking, and there are gradations in between Obviously,

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Speaker 5: different crimes deserve different punishments, or in the campus context,

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Speaker 5: certain things, you know, get you get you a reprimand

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Speaker 5: from a dean or simply a cautionary you know, conversation,

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Speaker 5: and certain things give you expelled, and everything in between.

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Speaker 5: So you have to evaluate what the exact violation is

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Speaker 5: and respond appropriately with due process, not just a kangaroo

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Speaker 5: court and all of that. University of Chicago, which is

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Speaker 5: my law school alma mater and sort of the gold

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Speaker 5: standard for both free speech, institutional neutrality viewpoint non discrimination

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Speaker 5: in hiring.

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Speaker 9: That the Chicago trifecta does great things.

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Speaker 5: It let the encamping continue for a few days and

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Speaker 5: then ultimately cleared it out as well.

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Speaker 9: I think that happened yesterday or the day before.

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Speaker 5: So you know a lot of alumni were calling for

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Speaker 5: Chicago to enforce their actual rules and enforce their actual

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Speaker 5: initial statement that they made sooner, but they let kind

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Speaker 5: of a conversation.

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Speaker 9: Continue for for a few days. Whatever we can. We

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Speaker 9: can Monday morning, quarterback all day.

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Speaker 5: But it's not about the gentleness of you know, what

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Speaker 5: kind of equipment the police use when they come in,

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Speaker 5: or how many of them are there. That's an evaluation

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Speaker 5: of police tactics and proportional force and methods and things

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Speaker 5: like that. But when you occupy buildings and vandalize and

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Speaker 5: break windows and do all sorts of things that do

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Speaker 5: disrupt the educational mission, that terrorize the workers, the working

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Speaker 5: class workers that are there, as we've seen reported by

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Speaker 5: the Free Press with respect to Columbia's takeover of Hamilton Hall,

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Speaker 5: that's a problem.

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Speaker 9: Certain things are criminal violations.

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Speaker 5: Certain things are mere violations of the university Code of Responsibilities,

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Speaker 5: which could get you expelled or suspended or some other

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Speaker 5: kind of punishment, again commensurate with the type of crime.

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Speaker 5: But this is not about gentle crackdowns versus brutal crackdowns.

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Speaker 5: It's about dealing with, you know, responding to situations as

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Speaker 5: they arise.

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Speaker 9: And there's no right to you know.

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Speaker 5: Unquote mostly peaceful protest or what have your, mostly peaceful

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Speaker 5: occupation of buildings and disruptions.

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Speaker 9: Of educational missions. Colombia has now canceled their graduation ceremonies.

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Speaker 5: They moved all of their classes online. That's not right

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Speaker 5: for all of the students who are not engaged in

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Speaker 5: all of this activism. I think Chicago's doing better Princeton,

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Speaker 5: my undergraduate alma mater, is doing better and enforcing rules

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Speaker 5: against sleeping and camping and things like that, while allowing

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Speaker 5: the protesters to actually protest in a non disruptive way.

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Speaker 5: So again, Ben Sass, at University of Florida, you don't

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Speaker 5: have these massive things. So there are different responses that

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Speaker 5: we're seeing in real time, differentiating what real leadership is

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Speaker 5: while protecting the freedom of speech.

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Speaker 6: So let me kick that to Glenn, actually, because there's

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Speaker 6: something interesting in Glenn. You mentioned this earlier, and I

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Speaker 6: don't want to gloss over it that when there are violations,

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Speaker 6: it's reasonable in certain cases, and that's where I want

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Speaker 6: to kind of drill down into specifics for the university

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Speaker 6: to respond by enforcing its rules. So while we're talking

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Speaker 6: about our alma maters, my alma manter George Washington University,

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Speaker 6: there were some there was a leader I actually don't

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Speaker 6: know if there were a student or not chanting guillotine.

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Speaker 6: There were some students in the audience chanting guillotine in

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Speaker 6: reference to different university officials that were being put on

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Speaker 6: a sort of mock trial in the middle of the encampment.

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Speaker 6: There obviously at Columbia we saw some obvious vandalism, breaking

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Speaker 6: into the building, et cetera. So, Glenn, what is your

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Speaker 6: sort of where's the line for you as to what's

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Speaker 6: protected speech, what's protected civil disobedient not protected civil disobediance,

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Speaker 6: but what sort of tolerable civil disobedience? How do you

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Speaker 6: kind of categorize different things we've seen at these encampments.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it absolutely depends on the impact. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: if you have people using violence, and there have been

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Speaker 1: so many hate crimes hoaxes about trying to create this

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Speaker 1: narrative that American Jews are this new endangered and victimized group.

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Speaker 1: They can't even walk outside without being violently attacked. The

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Speaker 1: one example that's spread all over the media, and that

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Speaker 1: was promoted by Barry Weiss's Free Press, ended up being

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Speaker 1: a complete hoax. This Jewish Shudent who has been a

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Speaker 1: long time pro iSER activist, who claimed that she was

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Speaker 1: stabbed in the eye with a Palestinian flag. And then

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Speaker 1: when you watch the video, she was standing near the protesters,

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Speaker 1: they were just marching by her waving flags. One of

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Speaker 1: the flags just brushed up against her. She went on

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Speaker 1: TV there was nothing wrong with her eyes, she said,

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Speaker 1: the only symptoms she had was a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a headache. And yet Mike Johnson goes to the Holocaust

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Speaker 1: Museum yesterday and claims that Jewish students plural are now

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Speaker 1: having attacks on them violently by being stabbed in the

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Speaker 1: eye with Palestinian flags. It's like a Jesse Smollett level

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Speaker 1: of hate crimes hoax, but written large to justify these

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Speaker 1: aggressive crackdowns. We just had, you know, two weeks ago

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Speaker 1: the House of Representatives that passed a law that wildly

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Speaker 1: expanded the definition of anti Semitism for anti discrimination law,

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Speaker 1: and it includes a wide range of views that obviously

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Speaker 1: are constitutionally protected, such as saying that you think Israeli

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Speaker 1: crimes and war are similar to what the Nazis did,

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Speaker 1: to suggest that certain people Evangelicals or American Jews who

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Speaker 1: are inculcated from birth with worshiping Israel and being devoted

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Speaker 1: to it, have a greater allegiance to Israel if it's

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Speaker 1: in conflict with the United States, to even criticizing Israel

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Speaker 1: in a way that is supposedly a double standard, meaning

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Speaker 1: you criticize Israel more harshly than you do. These are

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Speaker 1: now rendered illegal under anti discrimination laws. That's a full

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Speaker 1: frontal assault on basic free speech rights in addition to

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Speaker 1: all the other examples that I cited, And I think

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Speaker 1: the most important thing here when we're talking about standards is,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think human beings need to be humble.

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Speaker 4: We are not consistency machines.

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Speaker 1: Of course, we're going to be more inclined to support

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Speaker 1: crackdowns on in censorship of the views that we most hate.

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Speaker 1: And again, Ilio, who is a free speech champion in

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Speaker 1: a lot of contacts, is somebody who is a fanatical

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Speaker 1: devotee to Israel. He really believes that Israel has to

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Speaker 1: be protacted and defended. And I think he should be

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Speaker 1: more humble about asking himself whether or not he's applying

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Speaker 1: standards inconsistently. Because the people who's silencing he's supporting happened

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Speaker 1: to be people whose views he most hates. I don't

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Speaker 1: think there's another cause that offends him more than this one,

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Speaker 1: namely criticizing Israel or calling for the end of Zionism.

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Speaker 1: And just to point out one example that I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know referenced earlier, a study, not social media anecdotes,

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Speaker 1: but a study that said ninety nine percent of campus

437
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: encampments and protests have been entirely nonviolent. One of the

438
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: examples of violence bet behind the UCLA one was a

439
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: video that surfaced yesterday where a former IDF soldier and

440
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 1: a professor at the University of Arizona physically menaced Muslim

441
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 1: woman by being using a posture of wanting to fight,

442
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: getting an inch away from them, having that body posture

443
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 1: like you're ready to hit them. The Muslim women were

444
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,719
Speaker 1: covering their faces. It was very difficult to watch. That

445
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 1: was one of the gravest acts of actual physical intimidation

446
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 1: and force that I've seen of these incidents. Ilia went

447
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 1: on to Twitter and said the following quote. A postdoctoral

448
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 1: researcher at Arizona State lost his temper after being provoked

449
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 1: at a pro Israel rally over the weekend, so blaming

450
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: these Muslim women who were physically threatened and menaced, he

451
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: said it wasn't a good look, but hardly a capital offense,

452
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 1: with some similarities to my poorly phrased tweet, and then

453
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 1: it went on to defend the idea that.

454
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 4: This professor, Jonathan.

455
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 1: Utelman, who was really the one who used physical menacing,

456
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: should not even lose his job now if the situation

457
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: were reversed and these were muslimmen physically menacing Jewish women

458
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: in this way, I strongly believe that Ilia and many

459
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 1: other people would be calling that a terrorist act and

460
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,959
Speaker 1: demanding their imprisonment and deportation. And so I think it is.

461
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a matter of corruption. I just

462
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: think there are a lot of people who are indoctrinated

463
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: from birth and bombarded with propaganda.

464
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 4: I noticed because I was one of them. I grew

465
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 4: up in American.

466
00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: Jewish culture, who are taught to defend have loyalty to

467
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: an affection for Israel above almost any other cause. And

468
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 1: the idea that someone's going to be so certain that

469
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 1: the reason they generally support free speech and yet in

470
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: this case aren't bothered by that congressional law aren't bothered

471
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: by the census is shutting down of pro Palestinian groups

472
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: on the really noxious theory that now material support of

473
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 1: terrorism doesn't mean raising funds for terrorist groups or are

474
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: arming them, but it just means speech speech that supposedly

475
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 1: advances their anti Israel, causing great violation of the First Amendment.

476
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: The reason why there's this obvious shifting of standards, even

477
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: of sentiments. Is because the people on the right largely

478
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: revere Israel and have as one of their central causes

479
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 1: defending Israel from criticism, and that's why they're so offended

480
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: by this protest movement.

481
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 8: Yeah, Elia, take that question and just to give some

482
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 8: like data to what or an anecdote to what Glenn

483
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 8: is talking about here you tweeted recently, universities are now

484
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 8: well aware of s JP's material support for terrorism added

485
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 8: to the lawsuits strengthening Title six claims and adding others.

486
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 8: You commonly do refer to these protesters as giving material

487
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 8: support to terrorism, which means that you're kind of taking

488
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,959
Speaker 8: it beyond like, Okay, somebody's smashed a window and is

489
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 8: blocking ingress and egress, so therefore they've broken these laws

490
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 8: and they need to be arrested. To everyone who holds

491
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 8: these views is materially supporting terrorism and is somehow backchannel

492
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 8: financed by terrorism, and therefore needs to be entirely cracked

493
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 8: down on.

494
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 3: So how do you square that with your We have

495
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 3: to we have to.

496
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 9: Be careful in our use of language.

497
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 5: I mean, Glen Glenn is throwing lots of stuff on

498
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 5: the wall, and I'm not here to debate Israel policy

499
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 5: or Zionism or anything like that.

500
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 9: And again there's a difference between but can.

501
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: You acknowledge that it's a passionate cause of yours at least?

502
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 5: Course is as is anti communism, as is the First Amendment,

503
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 5: as is a proper interpretation of the Interstate Commerce Clause,

504
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 5: and the importance and goodness of the US Constitution and

505
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 5: originalist interpretations of it. I'm, you know, a public intellectual

506
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 5: quote unquote who advocates for lots of things, and I'm

507
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 5: passionate about lots of things. But this is not about

508
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 5: the merits of Israel's cause or the demerits of those

509
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:27,959
Speaker 5: who oppose it.

510
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 9: You know, I've.

511
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 5: Spoken out a lot about DEI, which, of course, you know,

512
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 5: I think should be ended rather than mended, because it

513
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 5: foments so much of this illiberalism, including the anti Semitism

514
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 5: that we've seen grow up on campus. But going back

515
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,719
Speaker 5: to the questions here, this is not about uh uh uh,

516
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 5: you know, crackdown on on on on the but not

517
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 5: on me or what have you. If there were massive

518
00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 5: encampments and demonstrations that were blocking access and violating pos

519
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 5: educational opportunities, in violation of Title six from the pro

520
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 5: Israeli side or some other side that I support, I

521
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 5: would be against that as well.

522
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 9: I criticized you mentioned.

523
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 5: That the Arizona State Professor Utelman, that was a bad judgment.

524
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 5: You know, again, he should be reprimanded, he should be criticized.

525
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 5: I don't think he should lose a job over that's

526
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 5: a question of gradation. Again, what's a capital offense versus

527
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 5: jaywalking and all the rest of it. You know, students

528
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 5: shouldn't be taken out and shot for engaging in these

529
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 5: this kind of behavior. This is all gaslighting that conflates

530
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 5: everything together. But to put it to put the conversation

531
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 5: back to Title six. So there's a difference between individual rights,

532
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 5: whether students, faculty, or non campus community members, and organizational

533
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 5: recognition and taxpayer support on public universities. Students for Justice

534
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 5: and PALIS and the National Organization has been functioning as

535
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 5: the pr agency for Hamas and other terrorist organizations as

536
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 5: recognized by the State Department. They are organizing supporting in

537
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 5: terms of finance, but otherwise organizational support of these protests,

538
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 5: of these encampments of the tactics. There are playbooks that

539
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 5: they put out on October eighth, you know, before Israel

540
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 5: went into Gaza to take advantage of the opportunity to

541
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 5: attack Israel, because of course they're not pro Palestinian as

542
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 5: much as they are anti Israeli. The goal is to

543
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 5: abolish Israel at all costs, even if that hurts all

544
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 5: the Gozzins, as we're seeing happen now. And so the

545
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 5: question about material support of terror isn't about the individual

546
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 5: student rights and to crack down or punish, or criminalize

547
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 5: or deport those with improper views. It's to disestablish the

548
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 5: organizations that are part of this greater superstructure, which again,

549
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 5: as the Supreme Court has said, is not protected by

550
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 5: the First Amendment. Material support of terrorism includes acting as

551
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 5: MOS's pr agency, and so throwing SJP chapters off campus

552
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 5: is a different question than the rights of students.

553
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 4: Well, can I just interject, I'm sorry really quickly.

554
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: One of the student groups that has been closed on

555
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: many campuses is Jewish Voices for Peace, which is a

556
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: group of Jewish students, a large group who are opposed

557
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: to what they regard as Israeli abuse of human rights

558
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: of Palestinians, that the nile of statehood. They view the

559
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: Israeli attack on Gaza as being war crimes. Do you

560
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: view Jewish Voices for Peace as not just being a

561
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: pr agency for Hamas but also now engaged in material

562
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: support for terrorism? And can material support for terrorism a

563
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: felony that I believe is a capital offense or at

564
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: least provides for fifty years in jail time and like

565
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: very harsh prison conditions. That's something that can be committed

566
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: solely through expressing your views. You don't have to fundraise

567
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: for terrorists, you don't have to provide arms to them.

568
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 4: You just speak in a.

569
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: Way you say like, oh, I believe that you I

570
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: should leave Afghanistan. And now suddenly you're guilty of aiding

571
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: and embedding the Taliban because you want the asked to

572
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: leave Afghanistan.

573
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 4: You could be convicted of.

574
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: A felony for aiding and material aiding in a betting

575
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: or prouding materials sport to a designated terrorist gropes. Don't

576
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: you don't you think that's a pretty grave threat to

577
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: free speech. If you can commit felony simply by expressing

578
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: your political views about geopolitical conflicts.

579
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 5: Nobody, nobody should be punished for their speech.

580
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 9: And that's not what the relevant statutes are doing.

581
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 5: You're conflating different usage of the term materials support for

582
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 5: terror in the law.

583
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: What these groups do beyond speech to be guilty of

584
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: materials and materialism.

585
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 5: Again, you're gaslighting this is this is there's a difference

586
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 5: between the rights of the associational rights of organizations and

587
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 5: the rights and freedoms of individuals and what they can

588
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 5: be prosecuted for. The question of whether s j P

589
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 5: should be thrown can legitimately be thrown off campus is

590
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 5: a different one than whether any individual student or organizers

591
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 5: should or can.

592
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 9: Be prosecuted because.

593
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 5: Taxpayer funding of organizations, which includes student recognition, access to funds,

594
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 5: access to being able to reserve spaces, all the rights

595
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 5: and privileges and benefits of a student group, is different

596
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 5: than what should be done about an individual student who's

597
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 5: speaking in.

598
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 9: Some particular way. I am fundamentally against.

599
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 5: Disciplining, investigating students, faculty members, and others who engage in

600
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 5: speech unless that rises to the level of a death

601
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 5: threat or a excitement of violence, which is a very

602
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 5: high bar under Supreme portraits.

603
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 9: So speech that's actually not protected by the First Amendment, we.

604
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 6: Had just a fine point on that question. So if

605
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 6: a student is at an SJP event or hands out

606
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 6: an SJP flyer, your take is that is not prosecutable

607
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 6: material support for terrorism where it shouldn't be under the law.

608
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 5: I'm not a criminal lawyer, but I don't think I

609
00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:00,040
Speaker 5: can't imagine a prosecution for handing out pamphlets unless that

610
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 5: pamphlet in some way, you know, incites violence or reaches

611
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 5: that kind of standard. But from what I've seen, I

612
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 5: don't think there's anyone who can be prosecuted for their

613
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 5: speech in.

614
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 9: That kind of scenario.

615
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 5: Again, the debate over s JP and the funding sources

616
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 5: and networks and organizations is about whether they can exist

617
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 5: as a corporate body on campus. And Glenn asked about

618
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 5: Jewish Voices for Peace. That's a fact question, as lawyers

619
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 5: would call it. This is why Attorney General of Virginia,

620
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 5: Jason Millaris, among others, are investigating the various contacts between

621
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 5: these organizations.

622
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: And that doesn't bother you that Jewish Voice for Our

623
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: Peace are being criminally investigated. This is righting attorney generals

624
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: who love Israel. Does it bother you?

625
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 5: Jewish Voices piece seems to me like the Holy Roman Empire,

626
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 5: and that it's neither Holy, nor Roman nor an empire.

627
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 9: JBP is neither Jewish nor voices nor for.

628
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 4: People cares what you think of their opinions.

629
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: They have every right to engage in the American student

630
00:33:58,840 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: I'm not.

631
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 9: Saying they should be prosecuted for their speech. I'm saying

632
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 9: if investigations reveal that they're part of a terrorist financing

633
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 9: network and organizational structure, then they should be thrown off

634
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 9: campus as a corporate body. This is not about the

635
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 9: rights of students or.

636
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 5: What they're saying, or whether they should be prosecuted for that,

637
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 5: and stop conflating those kinds of issues.

638
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: But first of all, they have been thrown off many campuses,

639
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: and the argument is the same theory that Rondasantis use.

640
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: If you accuse student student groups that are in favor

641
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: of the propolic ganting cause of being guilty for material

642
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: support of terrorism, which is what you have to claim

643
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: in order to justify banning them from campus. Otherwise it's

644
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,959
Speaker 1: such an obvious violation of the First Amendment free speech

645
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 1: if you don't have another pretext. And that's why fire

646
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: dot org took such great offense to what DeSantis did

647
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 1: in other colleges as well. If you claim they're guilty

648
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: of material support for terrorism as it grounds for banning

649
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,359
Speaker 1: them from campus. Obviously you're accusing them of felonies. That's

650
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: what material support. You're not allowed to give material support terrorism.

651
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: But now if you now expand material support for terrorism.

652
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: Ron DeSantis didn't claim these groups are raising money, you're

653
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 1: providing arms. He simply said their speech is what gives

654
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: support for these terrorist groups. So if you are now

655
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 1: liable to being accused of a felony for the expression

656
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: of your political views that somehow align with the interests

657
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: of a terrorist group, like hey, we should leave the

658
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: Middle East, or saying we should leave Ukraine and that

659
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: somehow is deemed pro Russian speech. I can't think of

660
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: a graver assault on the rite of free speech than

661
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 1: criminalizing and criminalizing political activism of that sort.

662
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 5: That's nonsense, and you're being disingenuous and leveling those kinds

663
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 5: of accusations. There's a difference between the recognition of certain

664
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 5: kinds of organizations and whether they can exist on campus.

665
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 5: Say a chapter of the KKK or other. You know,

666
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 5: a chapter of Hamas Quahamas. We're the we're the Hamas

667
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 5: student group, and we promote terrorism. Right, So there are

668
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 5: rules of analysis and structures for defining what kinds of organizations,

669
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 5: particularly in public taxpayer funded institution, can or cannot exist

670
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 5: on campus.

671
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 9: Which is a separate question that if any.

672
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 5: Particular individual is doing something that rises to the level

673
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,720
Speaker 5: of incitement of violence and can should be disciplined or punished.

674
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 5: Another way, stop putting voice words in my mouth and

675
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 5: trying to make me out to look like I'm trying

676
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 5: to punish people for speech, which I'm not.

677
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 9: There is a difference.

678
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 4: I described described.

679
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 9: Context, I described.

680
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 4: Defense.

681
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 9: You finished.

682
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:32,240
Speaker 5: There's a difference between uh giving a speech saying Israel

683
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 5: is being illegitimate, They're engaged in genocide, this is all wrong,

684
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 5: this is bad. We shouldn't support them, and going to

685
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 5: a helll or a habbad house or the Center for

686
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 5: Jewish Life on campus and chanting from the river to

687
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 5: the sea Israel should be gone. Kill all the Jews,

688
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 5: any Jew you see today, punch them in the face.

689
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 5: There are differences between these kinds of scenarios.

690
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 4: No one claim those groups were doing that. No one

691
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 4: claimed defantas, didn't claim those groups were doing that.

692
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: They weren't doing that, And yet you defended Ronda san.

693
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 5: Let's turn on the facts and as if those groups

694
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 5: do in investigations by whether DeSantis' lawyers or Mires or

695
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 5: anybody else. If again, these are factual investigations, These aren't

696
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 5: sham investigations. If the dots are connected such that the

697
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 5: standard for material support of terror is established, then yes

698
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 5: they should be okay.

699
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,760
Speaker 8: Job, So, Elliott, you're supportive of a criminal investigation into

700
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 8: Jewish Voice for piece based on suspicion raised by their speech,

701
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 8: and so let's turn it around. What if a pro

702
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 8: Palestine attorney general somewhere in the United States said that,

703
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 8: you know what, I've discovered some genocidal language from some

704
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 8: APAC donors. I've also discovered that some donors to a

705
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 8: PAC also give to violent settlers that the United States

706
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 8: has even sanctioned recently. So I'm launching a criminal probe

707
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 8: into a PAC. Would you say, hey, Look, this is

708
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 8: a fact based investigation. This is not an infringement on

709
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 8: ape's right to free expression whatsoever. Let's just see what

710
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 8: the investigation finds.

711
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 5: Look, Attorney's general needs to meet certain standards to be

712
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 5: able to launch investigations, and I'm not sure if it's

713
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 5: a criminal investigation again, to kick an organization off campus.

714
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 9: I think that's a civil investigation.

715
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 5: You're not necessarily charging anyone, but regardless, to launch an investigation,

716
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,479
Speaker 5: if you have probable cause to do so, or whatever

717
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 5: the standard is in understate.

718
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 9: Law, go ahead and do so. I don't think something

719
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,800
Speaker 9: like that is going to pass the smell test. It

720
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:27,959
Speaker 9: would seem politically odd.

721
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 5: But if if an attorney general wants to stick his

722
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 5: neck out and claim something like.

723
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 8: That, yeah, I mean you're right that it won't happen.

724
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 8: That's not the point. It's clear it would never happen.

725
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 6: So one thing I wanted to get at here. It

726
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 6: seems like one of the central disagreements is even over definitions,

727
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 6: and that's one of the central disagreements in American politics period.

728
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 6: So Ilia mentioned from the River to the Sea is

729
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 6: a huge point of disagreement, and with the time we

730
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 6: have left. Glenn mentioned earlier the Anty Semitism Awareness Act,

731
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 6: which a bunch of Republicans supported in Congress, some dissented

732
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 6: from it. I'm super curious to get your take on it, Ilia,

733
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 6: But I also want to ask, you know, when we're

734
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 6: talking about what material support for terrorism is, what we're

735
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 6: talking about when we're talking about how to define violent

736
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 6: language or language that goes against student code of conduct towards.

737
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 7: Bigotry, we have and Ilia.

738
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 6: You've seen how that's been wielded against conservative students, how

739
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 6: that's been wielded against sort of dissenters from wokeism. So

740
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 6: even just having and Glenn's point about this protecting, you know,

741
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 6: sort of free speech maximalism is so that we have

742
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 6: humility about when those definitions are right, when those definitions

743
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 6: are wrong, and how we kind of come to a

744
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 6: place of.

745
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 7: Consensus on this.

746
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 6: So using the definition and the Anti Semitism Awareness Act

747
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 6: a lot of Republicans that I think is like twenty

748
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 6: in the House, not nearly as much as it should

749
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 6: be flagged that and said, listen, this definition is wildly broad.

750
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 6: It's way too broad, such as it would implicate even

751
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 6: potentially Christians the New Testament, I think. Is one thing

752
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 6: that Tucker Carlson argued in this case. So Ilia is

753
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 6: the Anti Semitism Awareness Act is Republican support for the

754
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 6: Anti Semitism Awareness Act hypocritical is the definition of anti

755
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 6: semitism in that bill too.

756
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 9: Broad, I don't think. So here's why. On the terms.

757
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 5: Of the Triple A the Anti Semitism Awareness Act. It

758
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 5: does not expand the authority of the Secretary of Education.

759
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 5: It doesn't change the standards of the Department of Education,

760
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 5: the Office Civil Rights to investigate claims of harassment or

761
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 5: other actionable discrimination. And it does not change, diminish and

762
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 5: fringe on the rights protected under any other provisions of law.

763
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 9: That is, all the Triple A.

764
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 5: Does is to define anti semitism for purposes of Title

765
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,359
Speaker 5: six of the Civil Rights Act, which already has for

766
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 5: a long time prohibited discrimination actions not speech based on race, color,

767
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 5: national origin, which the Department of Education of both parties

768
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 5: have long understood to include ancestry and ethnicity.

769
00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 9: So for a long.

770
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 5: Time we haven't had a definition of anti semitism or

771
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 5: what kinds of actions might be discriminatory for being antisemitic.

772
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 9: Again, actions not speech.

773
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 5: And the Triple A doesn't create any new investigative authorities,

774
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 5: it doesn't expand powers all of that, So there's no

775
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 5: hypocrisy here. It's it adopts the the kind of gold

776
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 5: standard definition of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance. Uh and

777
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 5: you know, the only that that has adherents from scholars

778
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 5: across the ideological spectrum that you know is against negative

779
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 5: perceptions of Jews, just like for purposes of racism, we

780
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 5: have negative perceptions of people of different races and what

781
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 5: have you. So the Triple A, you know, this is

782
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,800
Speaker 5: a common myth that it's somehow.

783
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 9: Going after anyone who speaks.

784
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 5: Out against Jews or criticizes the government of Israel, or

785
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 5: even as you said, Tucker Carson, Tucker Carlson's absurd plane

786
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 5: that teaching the New Testament somehow now by violates the laws.

787
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 9: That's completely wrong.

788
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 5: What it does is define anti semitism for purposes of

789
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 5: Title six, which already makes taking actions based.

790
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 9: On anti Semitism illegal.

791
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: Can I please interject there, because I just cannot abide

792
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: that claim, which is so wildly misleading about what this

793
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: law does.

794
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 4: Anti Semitism knows all about misleading claims.

795
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 9: Plan.

796
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 4: Okay, very good argument.

797
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: I'm about to actually give you a substance of explanation

798
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: as to why.

799
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 4: You're being misleading, not just call you that.

800
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 1: The reason this law is so controversial it got seventy

801
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: no votes among Democrats, twenty one no votes among House

802
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: Republicans is because anti Semitism was already part of anti

803
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: discrimination law. What it did was it wildly expanded the

804
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,240
Speaker 1: definition which came from Israel that began pressuring the West

805
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: to adopt this massively expansive view. It incorporated certain examples.

806
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: So let me give you the examples of what is

807
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: now deemed illegal anti discrimination for anti discrimination laws or

808
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: anti Semitism for anti discrimination from lows in places like

809
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 1: educational institutions. You cannot say that the crimes of the

810
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:11,439
Speaker 1: Israeli government in war has similarities to what the Nazis did.

811
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: If you're allowed to say that about the United States.

812
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:15,760
Speaker 1: You can say what the United States did in Iraq

813
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: is similar to what you just can't say it about Israel.

814
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 1: You are not allowed to say that particular Jewish individuals

815
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: like Ilia have such extreme devotion to Israel that they

816
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: have been instilled with since birth, that they're willing to

817
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: even sacrifice American civil liberties in defense of this foreign

818
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 1: country that they've been indoctrinated.

819
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 4: To revere and protect.

820
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: You may not agree with that assessment about someone like

821
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: Ben Shapiro or Barry Wise or Ilia, but you're now

822
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: banned from saying it as anti discrimination. You're not allowed

823
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: to say that your historical understanding of the world is

824
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: that Jews are responsible for the death of Jesus Christ.

825
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 1: You're not allowed to criticize Israel in a way that

826
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 1: is considered to be a double standard, meaning you apply

827
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 1: to Israel's standards you don't apply to other countries. You're

828
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: allowed to criticize the United States in the form of

829
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 1: double standard. You're allowed to criticize China or Korea, or

830
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: Argentina or Peru or Norway or any other.

831
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 4: Country in the world.

832
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: You're just not allowed to criticize Israel in a way

833
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: that seemed a double standard. This is a law that

834
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: takes a massive amount of obviously valid and constitutionally protected

835
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: opinions the ones I just went through, and many more

836
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: that are explicitly in the law, and it makes it

837
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 1: now an offense under anti discrimination law to express those opinions.

838
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 1: And this has been going on for so long. I mean,

839
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: it is not false. And I've posted many times the

840
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 1: language of the law that explicitly incorporates the examples under

841
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,280
Speaker 1: this Polocaust from Memorands law, and the examples are incorporated

842
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: into federal law, every single one of them by the

843
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: explicit text of the law that was just passed those

844
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 1: examples are unbelievably assault of a free speech, limiting free

845
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 1: speech of the rights of American citizens to protect this

846
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: foreign country in a way that no other country, and

847
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 1: no other group of people other than Jews enjoys this protection.

848
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 4: The other thing I.

849
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: Would say is that, as I've said, this has been

850
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: going on for a long time. You know, when there

851
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: was this movement to get you fired from Georgetown, I

852
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 1: spoke up in your defense. Not because I agreed with

853
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: the views that you had expressed that were so controversial.

854
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: I absolutely did not, but because I thought it was

855
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 1: so endangering of academic freedom to demand the firing of

856
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 1: professors at faculties in the United States for opinions they

857
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: expressed because other people found them offensive. Have you ever

858
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 1: once in your life, Ilia spoke up in defense of

859
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: professors who are fired or denied tenure.

860
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 4: Because of their criticism of Israel.

861
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: People like Norman Finkelstein, who got blocked from tenure even

862
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: though the tenure committee recommended a tenure based on his

863
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: scholarship because Alan Dershow, which went on a crusade against him.

864
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: Where Steven Salasia, who had tenure at the University of Illinois,

865
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: it was revoked because in twenty fourteen he was harshly

866
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: criticizing the State of Israel for their bombing of Gaza.

867
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: Have you ever once defended a critic of Israel or

868
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: a pro Palestinian speaker for the free speech abridgements that

869
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: they've suffered.

870
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 5: Faculty should not be punished or disciplined or investigated for

871
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 5: their extramural speech.

872
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 9: I'll say that that's not my business. I don't work

873
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 9: for it.

874
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 3: Why have you defended any specific.

875
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 9: I've only been in this business.

876
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 5: Is kind of elevated into this discourse since I had

877
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 5: my own incidents with Georgetown in that time. I'm not

878
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 5: sure what's gone on, but certainly the university professors at

879
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 5: Cornell and Columbia and whatnot, it have celebrated Hamas. Maybe

880
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 5: it's bad judgment to have hired them in the first place,

881
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 5: but they s shouldn't be fired now for giving a

882
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 5: speech to that effect. But going back to Glenn's misleading

883
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 5: invocations of the accurate examples that he quotes from the

884
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 5: IHR A definition of antisemitism, neither the Triple A nor

885
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 5: Title six, as properly interpreted, regulates, punishes, or criminalizes speech.

886
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 5: What it says that if you hold those kinds of

887
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 5: opinions and act on them in the way that discriminates

888
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 5: against Jews, students, faculty, or otherwise, who you admit, who

889
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 5: you huire making decisions in the context of an educational institution,

890
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 5: then you are acting improperly in violation of the law.

891
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 5: Giving a speech saying that applying a double standard to Israel,

892
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 5: or criticizing me or calling me fanatical or whatever does

893
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 5: not by itself violate any sort of law unless you're improperly,

894
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 5: unless you're one of these dei bureaucrats that wants to

895
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 5: impose speech codes and use intersectional hierarchies to go after people. Now,

896
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 5: we can have a debate about whether Title six, either

897
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 5: as written or as enforced, goes too far, whether the

898
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 5: Civil Rights Act altogether goes too far in a libertarian way,

899
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 5: there are valid ways to have that debate. But the

900
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:49,800
Speaker 5: Triple A, the Antisemitism Awareness Act does not criminalize, punish,

901
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 5: or otherwise regulate speech, and if it's interpreted to do so,

902
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 5: I would be happy to take that case because that's

903
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 5: a slam dunk win for anyone who is being disciplined

904
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 5: for anti Semitic speak.

905
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 6: So let's on this note, Glenn, take some time and

906
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,280
Speaker 6: we'll do closings for Yeah.

907
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:08,479
Speaker 3: I've got one more question.

908
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, Iliah. And I'm sure you know this this

909
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 8: history pretty well. We could have spent a lot of

910
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 8: time talking about the world worth sit ins and other

911
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 8: you know, civil disobedience. But let's go back to the

912
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 8: nineteen thirties at Harvard. Harvard to it's great shame, as

913
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 8: you know, had a lot of connections to the Nazi regime.

914
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 8: A lot of students at Harvard found that absolutely important.

915
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 8: Nineteen thirty six, students at Harvard enacted, you know, huge

916
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 8: protests anti Nazi protests at Harvard.

917
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 3: Those protests were red.

918
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 8: Baited, as you would expect as today you have people

919
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 8: like yourself saying that the Jewish Voice for Peace is

920
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 8: actually a front for AMAS. At the time, it was like, actually,

921
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 8: these anti Nazi protests are just a front for the

922
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 8: Soviet Union.

923
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 3: It's communist part of the US. Say there's communists everywhere.

924
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 3: Communists have infiltrated our students.

925
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 2: And.

926
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 8: You don't have to wonder, you know what structure you said,

927
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 8: you know, the structures of the organizations were attacked. There

928
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 8: was a McCarthy's dismantling over the coming decades. So if

929
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 8: you were back there in nineteen thirties, would you have

930
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 8: been with those protesters or would you have supported a

931
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 8: crackdown on those protesters saying that, look, there's a neutral law.

932
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 8: You can't hold an anti Nazi protest on Harvard's campus,

933
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 8: and we're going to enforce the law.

934
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 5: Well, the neutral law wouldn't say an anti Nazi protest.

935
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 5: It would say that you can't camp, and you can't

936
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 5: do certain things. You can't use bullhorns to disrupt classes,

937
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 5: and yeah, those should be applied evenly, whether you're pro.

938
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 9: Nazi or anti Nazi.

939
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 5: The Woolworth protest, you're talking about the civil rights era

940
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 5: in the fifties and sixties. The point of those protests

941
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 5: was to sit peacefully at lunch counters and get arrested

942
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 5: and thereby make national news and expose the illegitimacy of

943
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,280
Speaker 5: segregation and other racist laws. The students here at Columbia

944
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:57,880
Speaker 5: don't want to be arrested. They complain when the police

945
00:49:57,880 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 5: are involved with their cause.

946
00:49:59,280 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 9: Is so just?

947
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 5: They should be like, look, arrest me, I want to

948
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 5: show the world what you know. The the illegitimate authorities

949
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 5: are here in enforcing their their their unjust racist whatever

950
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 5: laws against encampment or or what have you.

951
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 9: So you know these are apples and oranges.

952
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 6: So Glenn final thoughts, and then we'll go back to

953
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 6: you Iliot for final.

954
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:22,839
Speaker 7: Thoughts as well.

955
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: Obviously on these kind of shows, people can make any

956
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 1: sorts of claims about what the law says or doesn't say.

957
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: And because I regard this law that was just passed

958
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 1: two weeks ago by the Republican House, and obviously with

959
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 1: the lot oft part from Democrats, but Republicans have been

960
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 1: waiving the ban or of free speech and the evils

961
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: of censorship for the last decade when it comes to

962
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: their own speech being targeted. Just want to make clear

963
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: what the law says and want people to go read it,

964
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 1: because it's a very short law. It expands the definition

965
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 1: of anti semitism by adopting the ihra A definition, and

966
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 1: it specifically says this new definition quote includes the contemporary

967
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 1: examples of anti semitism identified in the ii ihr A definition.

968
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 1: If you then go look at the examples of the

969
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 1: ihr A definition of what constitutes anti semitism for anti

970
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: discrimination law, it says you cannot accuse Jewish citizens of

971
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 1: having more loyalty toward Israel than to their own country.

972
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 1: You're allowed to say Catholics have more loyalty to the

973
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 1: Pope than they do the United States.

974
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 4: You're allowed to say the.

975
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: Irish have more loyalty to their or country of origin,

976
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: or Indian Americans do, or Evangelicals have more loyalty.

977
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 4: You just can't say it about American Jews.

978
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 1: You're not allowed to deny the right of the state

979
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: of Israel to exist. You can say America was founded correctly,

980
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: the UK was founded correctly, they shouldn't exist.

981
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 4: You just can't say that about Israel.

982
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: You're not allowed to criticize Israel in a way that

983
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: applies a double standard or a difference of criteria to

984
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 1: the way you criticize other countries. You can have all

985
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:54,280
Speaker 1: a party all day criticizing your own government in the US, Canada, whatever,

986
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:56,839
Speaker 1: in a way that's a double just not Israel. You're

987
00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: not allowed to say that Jews you believe historically either

988
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: killed Jesus or responsible for his death, even though many

989
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: Christians have long believed that and been taught that that

990
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: is now formally anti Semitism under the law and You're

991
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 1: not allowed to effectuate any comparison between the acts of

992
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 1: the Israeli government and what the Nazis did, even if

993
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:17,720
Speaker 1: you believe they're completely similar. And again, you can compare

994
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: Nazis to any other country, including your own, just not

995
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: to Israel. That is what the law explicitly incorporates as

996
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: formally illegal speech for purposes of anti discrimination law, for

997
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:30,600
Speaker 1: which you can be sued or otherwise punished. That is

998
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 1: what the law says. I hope people go read it.

999
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 1: I just read directly from it.

1000
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 4: Now.

1001
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,800
Speaker 1: The other point that I want to make is the

1002
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,879
Speaker 1: hypocrisy of the American right is that they are very

1003
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 1: vocal when it comes to things like speech codes or

1004
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 1: victimization narratives or safetyism narratives. Every single minority group, black

1005
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 1: people and Latinos and women and immigrants and Muslims and

1006
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,879
Speaker 1: trans people who have used these narratives, Oh, we're very

1007
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: vulnerable in the United States. We're endangered, we're victimized. Hate

1008
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 1: speech incites violence against us. Therefore we need speed protections.

1009
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 1: Every single conservative I know has viciously mocked that narrative

1010
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: for the last ten years. Because these are coming from

1011
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 1: minority groups that they don't really care about now though,

1012
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: that exact same narrative. American Jews are this unique victim

1013
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 1: group in the United States. They're being uniquely endangered. They

1014
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:23,359
Speaker 1: don't feel safe on campus because they're passing by slogans

1015
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: that they feel threatened by or uncomfortable by. That now

1016
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: they need speech codes on campus and to be able

1017
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 1: to prohibit certain slogans like from the River to the

1018
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:34,800
Speaker 1: Sea because it makes Jewish students feel uncomfortable.

1019
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 4: Words are violence.

1020
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: All of these narratives that the right has heaped scorn

1021
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: on forever are now being enthusiastically embraced in the name

1022
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: of protecting the one minority group to whom they feel

1023
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 1: a certain kind of loyalty. The hypocrisy is nauseating. It

1024
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: is so suffocating. And the bigger problem is that this

1025
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: is a long time effort now in the United States

1026
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: to target israel critics and pro Palestinian activists with the

1027
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,399
Speaker 1: kind of censorship that when it's directed at the American right.

1028
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 1: As an actual free speech advocate, I object to, I

1029
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: object in all cases. The problem is so many conservatives

1030
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: exempt the one cause they care about most, which is

1031
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: devotion to Israel, not allowing Israel to be subject to

1032
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 1: criticism or have activism against it, and they want to

1033
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 1: use all these narratives and use all this censorship.

1034
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 4: And it's been going on way before since October seven.

1035
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 7: Fun word to you, Elia.

1036
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 5: Glenn's quoting of the Anti Semitism Awareness Act and its

1037
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 5: incorporation of the definition by the IRA.

1038
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 9: Are absolutely accurate.

1039
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 5: Where Glenn is inaccurate is that he says that that

1040
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:44,800
Speaker 5: kind of speech is now being punished.

1041
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 9: The Triple A does not create any new causes of action.

1042
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 5: It does not regulate speech or do anything with those

1043
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 5: new definitions. Again, the gold standard, the widely accepted standard

1044
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 5: of antisemitism, other than apply them to Title six, and

1045
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 5: for purposes of Title six, speech is not regulated or

1046
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 5: criminalized or punished in any way. Again, any university administrators

1047
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 5: that have in the past used invoke Title speech Title

1048
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 5: six to punish speech are acting improperly.

1049
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 9: And I have defended those.

1050
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 5: Who, in all sorts of contexts, are the targets of

1051
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 5: those kinds of which hunts. So again, you can be

1052
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 5: as antisemitic as you want in your speech and expression.

1053
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 5: Where Title six is being violated is where universities take

1054
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 5: negative actions against someone based on antisemitism as defined in

1055
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:45,839
Speaker 5: the ways that Glenn said.

1056
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 9: So if someone doesn't admit a Jewish.

1057
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 5: Student, or punishes a Jewish student, or takes an adverse

1058
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 5: action against faculty because they think Jews kill Jesus, and

1059
00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 5: that person is a Jew, that's evidence of antisemity motivation

1060
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 5: for that action, not because that person has said something

1061
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 5: or been part of a rally or anything else.

1062
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 9: That's a fine distinction.

1063
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 5: Perhaps, But again this all goes to Title six, and

1064
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 5: we can debate the Title six as it's laid out

1065
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,800
Speaker 5: in theory or in practice, but there's no new causes

1066
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:24,760
Speaker 5: of action, no new regulation or punishment for speech under

1067
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,400
Speaker 5: this legislation to the extent that it's going to be used.

1068
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 5: If it takes force in a way to punish speech,

1069
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 5: I would be very much against that because again you

1070
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 5: have to remember there is a difference between speech and action.

1071
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 5: Certain kinds of speech, death threats, incitement of violence is

1072
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 5: not protected, and then time, place, and manner regulation. So look,

1073
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 5: there's a reason why the pro Israeli other than perhaps

1074
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,760
Speaker 5: that UCLA incident, which again we don't know what exactly

1075
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 5: went on, but pro Israel demonstrations tend to have American flags,

1076
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,320
Speaker 5: it's singing, it's joyous. There's no intimidation, there's no harassment,

1077
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,879
Speaker 5: there's no attacks on America and the West. Whereas the

1078
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 5: intersectional pro hamas pro terrorists uh uh uh you know,

1079
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:11,879
Speaker 5: intersectional left uh groups and campments that we've seen are intimidating,

1080
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 5: are harassing, are uh willing to break the rules because

1081
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 5: they don't believe that they're bound by the rules because

1082
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 5: of the righteousness of their cause. And yet they're not

1083
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 5: willing to suffer the slings and arrows of of civil

1084
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 5: disobedience punishment to showcase those rules, because I guess they know.

1085
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 9: That most people are not going to be in their corners.

1086
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 5: So I remain as staunch an advocate of free speech,

1087
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 5: possibly more uh than than Blen and I reject the

1088
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 5: label of I reject the label of of of either hypocrisy,

1089
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 5: which is which is not a crime. Uh but I

1090
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:49,920
Speaker 5: but I do think that the de I structures and

1091
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 5: the University of leaderships need to be fundamentally reformed so

1092
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 5: that we can all go on to enjoy uh you know,

1093
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 5: students can enjoy their their their educations rather than be

1094
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 5: disrupted by these illiberal protesters regardless of the underlying merits

1095
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 5: of their expression, which should be protected.

1096
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 8: All right, But the claim that you're making that the

1097
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 8: it's actually the campus protests that are harassing and violent

1098
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 8: is contradicted by the study that Glenn mentioned and also

1099
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 8: by all, well.

1100
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 5: How do you count something that's mostly peaceful as the

1101
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 5: number of people who we will know?

1102
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 9: I mean, I don't think it's not at all that. No,

1103
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 9: I mean we you know, who are you going to

1104
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 9: believe near your lying eyes? Right?

1105
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 5: It's we all see what's going on at these things,

1106
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 5: and how they're disrupting the educational missions of the universities.

1107
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 5: How Columbia decided to take all their classes online. Several

1108
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 5: schools have now canceled their graduation.

1109
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 9: That's not normal.

1110
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 5: The intimidation and harassment that we're seeing is not normal

1111
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 5: and and and should be investigated and punished.

1112
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 3: You can walk around all these encampments.

1113
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 8: Columbia canceling its graduation because it couldn't handle the encampment.

1114
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 8: It's a different thing than like them being forced to

1115
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 8: And there are huge.

1116
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 4: Numbers of Jews inside these encampments.

1117
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 1: There are anti semitism exhibits about the evils of anti

1118
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:11,920
Speaker 1: semitism right in the encampment in Colombia. They celebrated Passover

1119
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 1: dinner together. There are Jews, huge presence of Jews inside

1120
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: these protest movements on almost every campus.

1121
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 5: There are fellow traveler idiots in any organism. There are

1122
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 5: fellow travelers and useful idiots in any organization.

1123
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 8: Well, we'll also link to Glenn's article about the Anti

1124
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 8: Semitism Amendment whatever that act was.

1125
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 3: Called the Triple A.

1126
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 8: So people can decide for themselves if Congress just expanded

1127
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 8: the definition for just no reason and it'll have no effect,

1128
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 8: or whether expanding it had a purpose.

1129
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 7: And we'll see what happens in the Senate.

1130
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 6: Elia Shapiro and Glenn Greenwald, Thank you both really appreciate

1131
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 6: this debate. I know that we're all eager to sort

1132
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 6: this stuff out, so thank you both for being willing

1133
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 6: to have the conversation. Ryan, I loved that debate. Actually,

1134
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 6: it's kind of the debate that we were all waiting for.

1135
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 6: I feel like I haven't seen those two sides represented

1136
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 6: so well.

1137
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 3: Who won?

1138
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 6: Well, it's again, this is gonna be like last week, right,

1139
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:11,480
Speaker 6: like it's not a pylon because I genuinely think there's

1140
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 6: nuance to Ilia's side I was surprised that he supported

1141
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 6: the Triple A bill, you know what I mean, like,

1142
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:21,680
Speaker 6: that's I think that's an incredibly tough sell from a

1143
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 6: free speech proponent.

1144
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 7: I was actually surprised by that.

1145
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 8: Right, it's certainly not free speech absolutism, right, even if

1146
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 8: you take his claim at complete face value that these

1147
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 8: definitions are only being used in furtherance of some type

1148
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 8: of quote unquote prosecution against a student who has also

1149
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 8: done some other things. You know, those other things could

1150
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 8: be protesting at an encampment, and it is an expandon

1151
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 8: It is using speech within the framework of punishing someone

1152
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 8: even if you were even if he even if you

1153
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 8: take him one hundred percent of phase value, and saying

1154
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 8: that it alone is not enough that you need something extra.

1155
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 8: The fact that speech can be that something extra is

1156
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 8: not something that a free speech proponent could support.

1157
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 7: I was looking forward to this.

1158
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 6: So a couple of weeks ago, I was on Megan

1159
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 6: Kelly and Meghan and Ellianna Johnson. We were playing clips

1160
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 6: of I want to say it was Columbia, and it

1161
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 6: was like after the Alcasom's next Target thing had happened,

1162
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 6: and there were some really legitimate examples of obvious bigotry

1163
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 6: and or incitement that was happening around the campus protests.

1164
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 6: And then we interviewed Sofia SOUTHI student just like two

1165
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 6: days later, a student who was practicing just peaceful civil

1166
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 6: disobedience at the Colombian campment, a Jewish student by the way,

1167
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 6: and we asked her about some of the specific exact

1168
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 6: examples that I had been talking about the other day.

1169
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 6: And I think, you know, Glenn is absolutely right, there's

1170
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 6: this weird conflation. It's not weird at all, predictable conflation

1171
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:58,720
Speaker 6: of the actual bigotry and incitement with some of the

1172
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 6: peaceful protests, and that's really dangerous. And we've talked about why,

1173
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 6: and Safia SOUTHI shared some of the same frustrations that, like,

1174
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 6: it's not easy to you were talking about the red baiting.

1175
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 6: That's not easy for people who want to legitimately participate

1176
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 6: in civil disobeyity.

1177
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 8: Were there some student communists who participated in the anti

1178
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 8: Nazi demonstrations on Harvest campus in nineteen thirty six, of

1179
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 8: course that's you.

1180
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 3: There was good for them, of course, yeah.

1181
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:26,520
Speaker 6: And so I actually do think one of the reasons

1182
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 6: I was looking forward to this debate is that the

1183
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:33,120
Speaker 6: nuance here is really really difficult for the legacy press

1184
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 6: to address appropriately. And those two were I think, like

1185
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:39,320
Speaker 6: great representatives of their side. I think, you know, even

1186
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:41,920
Speaker 6: as someone on the right, I think that goes wildly

1187
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 6: too far to support the triple A bill when you

1188
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 6: even have Republicans talking.

1189
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 7: I've heard this just through my own.

1190
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:54,080
Speaker 6: Reporting, pretty mainstream conservative Republicans uncomfortable with the language and

1191
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:56,520
Speaker 6: that bill and working in the background on the Senate

1192
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:57,960
Speaker 6: side right now to tweak it.

1193
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 7: I actually heard that from Soursus yesterday. So there you go.

1194
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 7: I mean, when you have that, I mean that's rough.

1195
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:08,560
Speaker 3: Hopefully hopefully they're not talking to Ilia. It's fine. Just

1196
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 3: just let that, just let that roll.

1197
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 8: But I think you can dumb down the argument to say, look,

1198
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 8: if you commit civil disobedience, you can you break the law.

1199
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 8: You get arrested like that's and in some ways, like

1200
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 8: in the World War example, that is the purpose of

1201
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:29,720
Speaker 8: getting arrested. You're trying to expose the law. But there

1202
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 8: are there are degrees at work here. An intense crackdown

1203
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 8: followed by attempts to kind of expel and imprison students

1204
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 8: is different than say, hey, everybody who wants to get it.

1205
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 8: This is how protests often work. If you're if you're

1206
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 8: committing civil disabedience and you want to get arrested, come here,

1207
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 8: form a line over here.

1208
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 3: If you don't, this is your opportunity to go.

1209
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 9: Now.

1210
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:55,440
Speaker 8: Anybody who doesn't leave, we will assume that you're you

1211
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:56,320
Speaker 8: want to be protested.

1212
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:58,200
Speaker 3: They get, they get they.

1213
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 8: Get jailed, they get a little fine, They in court,

1214
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 8: sometimes they play the pine, sometimes spend the night. That

1215
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 8: is different than some of the more violent crackdowns slamming

1216
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 8: professor's heads into the sidewalk that are intended to suppress

1217
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:18,800
Speaker 8: the content of the expression that you're seeing.

1218
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 3: And I think it's impossible to.

1219
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:25,120
Speaker 8: Divorce people's attitudes about this from the actual content of

1220
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 8: these of these protests.

1221
01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 6: It was also very helpful that Glenn said right off

1222
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 6: the bat, people who are engaged in violence. I don't

1223
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 6: want to put words in his mouth because I don't

1224
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:36,160
Speaker 6: remember precisely how he phrased it, but people who are

1225
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 6: engaged in like actual you know, non protected speech and

1226
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:42,440
Speaker 6: speech that we can all you know, say is like

1227
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 6: incitement or whatever, you know, they should be punished. There

1228
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 6: should be consequences. If you're like egregiously violating, you know,

1229
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 6: some of these some of these very obvious examples. I

1230
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:55,000
Speaker 6: thought it was helpful that Glenn established that right off

1231
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:58,240
Speaker 6: the bat, because yeah, nobody here is saying that there

1232
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 6: have been like these protests have been perfect. And on

1233
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 6: the other hand, though, I think I shouldn't say nobody

1234
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 6: has been saying that, because I think there have been

1235
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:07,959
Speaker 6: some people on the left who have acted.

1236
01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 7: Like, oh yeah, nothing, like everything is absolutely perfect.

1237
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 6: Any criticism of this is tantamount to.

1238
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 3: Objectively supporting the other side, which I understand.

1239
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 7: Right, right, or like saying yeah, it's.

1240
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 3: Yes, giving sucker to the genocide, right.

1241
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:25,760
Speaker 6: Which is a very heavy accusation too. So I was

1242
01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:28,640
Speaker 6: just really pleased with how well I think they both

1243
01:05:28,680 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 6: represented their respective sides. Obviously, I think both of us

1244
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 6: agree with Glenn Moore at the end of the day.

1245
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think.

1246
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:36,400
Speaker 6: So it's been friend to do this on Friday. So far,

1247
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 6: we're three weeks in. I hope everybody's enjoying the show.

1248
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:41,800
Speaker 6: Breakingpoints dot com to subscribe. If you're a subscriber, you

1249
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 6: get this on Thursday night, so you get a little early.

1250
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 3: We will see you guys on Wednesday