Speaker 1: Pushkin, the brain activity that arose when we thought of
Speaker 1: our future selves looked more like the brain activity that
Speaker 1: arose when we thought of others. On a neural level,
Speaker 1: the future self looks like another person.
Speaker 2: Psychologist Hal Hirschfield studies the emotional connection we have to
Speaker 2: our future selves and the benefits of strengthening that connection.
Speaker 1: We've found that people who are connected to their future
Speaker 1: selves are more likely to have saved money over time,
Speaker 1: they exercise more, They're more likely to make ethical decisions,
Speaker 1: and feel more of a sense of meaning in their lives.
Speaker 2: On today's episode, Why Your Future Self Needs Your Help Today,
Speaker 2: I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans,
Speaker 2: a show about who we are and who we become
Speaker 2: in the face.
Speaker 3: Of a big change.
Speaker 2: Hell is a professor at UCLA and his work is
Speaker 2: at the intersection of psychology and economics. His new book
Speaker 2: is called Your Future Self, How to Make Tomorrow Better Today.
Speaker 2: It might seem funny to think of yourself in this way,
Speaker 2: that there's a present you and a future you. I mean,
Speaker 2: isn't there just one you? But Hell says the way
Speaker 2: your brain thinks about your sense of self isn't quite
Speaker 2: so straightforward.
Speaker 1: I think on the surface many of us would say,
Speaker 1: yet like I am who I am, I'm oneself, You're Maya,
Speaker 1: I'm hal and I have been and you have been.
Speaker 1: So what's interesting here is that if you start thinking
Speaker 1: about your life over time, it becomes a little hard
Speaker 1: to say that you are sort of this single entity. Right.
Speaker 1: Your interests may have changed, your friends may have changed,
Speaker 1: the city you live in, the job you have, like
Speaker 1: all of these things about you, your personality, right, all
Speaker 1: of these things, and so it can be a little
Speaker 1: bit difficult to say that there's sort of this oneself.
Speaker 1: And so I think a better notion to really capture
Speaker 1: the essence of identity over time is that we are
Speaker 1: a collection of separate selves. And so you do have
Speaker 1: the current version of you, current Maya, but then there's
Speaker 1: also a future self. There's a future version of you
Speaker 1: in five years, and there's also a future self that
Speaker 1: exists in twenty years or thirty years. So when I
Speaker 1: talk about current and future selves, what I'm trying to
Speaker 1: reflect is the reality that in many ways we're not
Speaker 1: this stable single entity over time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's really fascinating neuroscience research and
Speaker 2: psychology research that corroborates this and shows that from a
Speaker 2: psychological point of view, we don't see ourselves as this
Speaker 2: single entity over time that persists, and I think there's
Speaker 2: a lot of benefits from that, right, Maybe it opens
Speaker 2: us up to wonder and curiosity about who we might become.
Speaker 2: But there's also research showing that there's a possible downside
Speaker 2: to seeing ourselves as a collection of cells. And one
Speaker 2: of those downsides is that when we see our future
Speaker 2: cells as a distinct entity from who we are today,
Speaker 2: it can lead to our having less empathy towards that
Speaker 2: future self. And so, can you tell me how about
Speaker 2: what I find to be just an amazing neuroscience study
Speaker 2: showing how our brains perceive our present day self and
Speaker 2: our future self.
Speaker 1: So, one of the things that neuroscientists have found is
Speaker 1: that there's a different pattern of activity in the brain
Speaker 1: when people think about themselves compared to when they think
Speaker 1: about others. Now, my collaborators and I said, let's take
Speaker 1: these same ideas and apply them to thoughts of future selves.
Speaker 1: And what we found is that when we put people
Speaker 1: into the scanner, the brain activity that arose when people
Speaker 1: thought of their future selves looked more like the brain
Speaker 1: activity that arose when they thought of other people, which
Speaker 1: is really striking in a way. It's on the neural level,
Speaker 1: the future self looks like another person. Wow, it suggests
Speaker 1: that we are thinking of those future selves as if
Speaker 1: they are other people. Now, there's an important caveat here,
Speaker 1: which is that that's on average. Some people had patterns
Speaker 1: in the brain where the future self looked wildly like
Speaker 1: another person, and some people the difference was much smaller.
Speaker 1: Now a couple weeks later, we brought those same people
Speaker 1: back to the lab and we gave them decisions that
Speaker 1: they could make between smaller amounts of money that they
Speaker 1: could have right now and larger amounts of money they
Speaker 1: could have later. It's sort of a classic present future
Speaker 1: trade off. It's a little like spending versus saving, and it's.
Speaker 2: Really asking at its heart, how much do you care
Speaker 2: about your future self being happy with this sum of
Speaker 2: money versus your present day self?
Speaker 1: Right exactly. So, on the one hand, what we found
Speaker 1: is that the people for whom the future self looked
Speaker 1: most like another person, they said, I'll take the money
Speaker 1: right now and not save it for later. But then
Speaker 1: the flip side, the people for whom the future self
Speaker 1: looked most similar, most connected to the current self. Those
Speaker 1: are the ones who said, I'll wait, I'll wait till
Speaker 1: later and take more money for a future version of me.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Are there any psychological studies that look at the amount
Speaker 2: of empathy that we have towards our future selves.
Speaker 1: There is one study that comes to mind. So krim
Speaker 1: ca some and his colleagues did this work where they
Speaker 1: might say that people imagine you to win a lottery
Speaker 1: right now, how happy would you be on it, you know,
Speaker 1: on a one to ten scale, about an eight, I guess,
Speaker 1: And then they ask people how happy would you be
Speaker 1: if you want sort of an equivalent, you know, let's
Speaker 1: adjusted for inflation, lottery in the future, in five years,
Speaker 1: two years, whatever it might be. And the interesting thing
Speaker 1: there is that people's responses are lower. So I say, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'd be about a six or seven.
Speaker 1: And it's funny because if it's the same amount of money,
Speaker 1: you think I'd be the same amount of happy. But
Speaker 1: the reality is, somehow the things that are happening now
Speaker 1: feel stronger, and the things that are happening in the
Speaker 1: future feel somehow more muted.
Speaker 2: Another study that I love, which I think shows the
Speaker 2: same result that emerges from the neuroscience study is shown
Speaker 2: in this psychological study in terms of our frame of
Speaker 2: reference when we're thinking about our present day self and
Speaker 2: our future self. And gosh, I love this one. It
Speaker 2: feels so viscerally true in my own experience. So do
Speaker 2: you mind describing this particular study?
Speaker 1: Yes? So, Emily Pronin and Lee Ross did this great work.
Speaker 1: They ask people to describe a meal they're having right now,
Speaker 1: and when people do that, they naturally use the first
Speaker 1: person perspective. I am eating plasta, I am eating a
Speaker 1: sandwich or whatever it is. And then they ask a
Speaker 1: different group to imagine a meal in the very distant future.
Speaker 1: And when a different group of people do that exercise,
Speaker 1: some of them say, oh, I'll be eating pasta, I'll
Speaker 1: beating a sandwich, but way more of them switch to
Speaker 1: say he is eating a sandwich, He's eating pasta. They
Speaker 1: flip to use the third person perspective when thinking about
Speaker 1: their future self. And this is work that's been replicated
Speaker 1: by Neil McCrae and others as well. And I find
Speaker 1: it so interesting because it suggests that on this subtle
Speaker 1: psychological level, we make this little flip in our mind
Speaker 1: so that our future self now is seen as another.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when I sit here and then I imagine myself
Speaker 2: if I'm so lucky that I'm here many decades from now,
Speaker 2: in say a convalescent home. Right, I'm looking at myself
Speaker 2: sitting in the convalescent home.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: I have the ability to imagine myself in the first person.
Speaker 2: But it's not what comes instinctively, Whereas if I imagine
Speaker 2: my life today or imagine my life tomorrow, I am
Speaker 2: seeing it through the mind's eye. So why do you
Speaker 2: think we're like this? So why do you think it
Speaker 2: is that we feel less empathy towards our future selves
Speaker 2: than we might otherwise want to.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think to some extent you could go
Speaker 1: back in history and come up with an answer. Right,
Speaker 1: when life expectancy was much shorter, it really made sense
Speaker 1: to focus on what was certain, which was the present. Right,
Speaker 1: the distant future is wildly uncertain. Why should I do
Speaker 1: anything for it? But now we're living much longer, especially
Speaker 1: in developed countries, and not empathizing with the future self
Speaker 1: can look as if we are almost overly focused on
Speaker 1: the present self. It sort of brings up the concept
Speaker 1: of what behavioral economists and psycholoists called present bias, which
Speaker 1: is that we are to some extent bias towards the
Speaker 1: things that are happening now, so much so that we
Speaker 1: end up really undervaluing things that will happen to some
Speaker 1: future version of ourselves. So if our future self is
Speaker 1: the type of person who we know exists but we
Speaker 1: don't really care about them, then we're probably not going
Speaker 1: to be doing things for their benefit.
Speaker 2: Are there any other studies showing that the way we
Speaker 2: view our future self can change the kinds of decisions
Speaker 2: we make on behalf of that future self.
Speaker 1: Absolutely so. In my own work, we've found that people
Speaker 1: who are connected to their future selves are more likely
Speaker 1: to have saved money over time, they experience greater financial wellbeing,
Speaker 1: they perform in more patient ways and laboratory tasks, you know.
Speaker 1: Other research has even found that the people who experience
Speaker 1: a greater sense of similarity and connection with their future
Speaker 1: selves also feel more of a sense of meaning in
Speaker 1: their lives. They're more likely to make ethical decisions when
Speaker 1: given the option to act unethically, which is another one
Speaker 1: of these sort of present future trade offs.
Speaker 2: Wait, tell me more about that one. How that's fascinating.
Speaker 1: Well, if you think about it, If I'm given the
Speaker 1: option to cut a corner right now and get a
Speaker 1: little benefit right now, the trade off there is that
Speaker 1: I get something right now, but I also have the
Speaker 1: possibility of getting punished later.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're guilt feeling of guilt later.
Speaker 1: Or guilt later, right, And I have researched with collaborators
Speaker 1: where we found that the people who experience a lower
Speaker 1: degree of connection with their future selves, they're more likely
Speaker 1: to opt for unethical negotiation strategies. Fascinating when given the opportunity,
Speaker 1: and that we even see this. It's a small effect
Speaker 1: that we see in laboratory settings where they get the
Speaker 1: opportunity to sort of cheat, if you will.
Speaker 2: Given that we might change in unexpected ways, given that
Speaker 2: we will change, I should just say it's inevitability we
Speaker 2: will change in unexpected ways in the future. It can
Speaker 2: become a little bit tricky to figure out who we're
Speaker 2: actually making decisions on behalf of right, So when I
Speaker 2: make a decision today on behalf of my future self,
Speaker 2: I am incorporating my current preferences, my current values, my
Speaker 2: current beliefs into that decision. Making calculus and those things
Speaker 2: might radically change. And so let's say, like how you've
Speaker 2: convinced me I need to bridge any empathy gaps that
Speaker 2: exist between my present self and my future self. I
Speaker 2: need to care a lot more about future Maya. But
Speaker 2: I don't know who I'm solving for.
Speaker 1: Of course, if we're planning, we have to base those
Speaker 1: plans off of something, and the most relevant something is
Speaker 1: how we feel right now and who we are right now.
Speaker 1: And as you pointed it out really well, that change
Speaker 1: changes us and we can't fully anticipate those changes. At
Speaker 1: the same time, we can look to the core of
Speaker 1: us and the things that matter and try to make
Speaker 1: plans based on the values that we hold and what's
Speaker 1: important right now. And I want to layer on top
Speaker 1: of that the need to revisit our plans and be
Speaker 1: compassionate with the idea that some of those values and
Speaker 1: some of our preferences may change over time.
Speaker 2: Are there predictable ways in which we might change that
Speaker 2: we can account for now in terms of the decisions
Speaker 2: we make, or are there at least stable aspects of
Speaker 2: who we end up being that we can feel fairly
Speaker 2: good about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, your question also gets a sort of this nuanced
Speaker 1: psychology of how much we actually change over time and
Speaker 1: in some ways. You know, what personality psychologists suggests is
Speaker 1: that it depends on where you look. In some ways
Speaker 1: we change and other ways we've remain the same. And
Speaker 1: so you know, there's the big five personality traits openness, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, neuroticism.
Speaker 1: Over a ten year period, we can expect one of
Speaker 1: those to change. There's a good chance that one of
Speaker 1: those traits will change, which is wild in a way. Right,
Speaker 1: there's the five core traits. One of them changes.
Speaker 3: Can I choose neuroticism?
Speaker 1: Please?
Speaker 3: Can I talk to the psychology nods. I'd like to
Speaker 3: change that one everyone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my magic eight ball says that one is fixed.
Speaker 3: Oh damn it.
Speaker 1: You know, you know, we can expect right to get
Speaker 1: a more conscientious over time, and yet some of the
Speaker 1: other traits may remain quite stable. And obviously there's lots
Speaker 1: of videosyncrasies here, and there's individual differences. We can't predict
Speaker 1: what environmental factors and what external factors will will change
Speaker 1: those things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think the broader message is sure there
Speaker 2: might be some misforecast about how we think will end up.
Speaker 2: But it's better to care period about your future self,
Speaker 2: so at least that can be integrated into your present
Speaker 2: day decisions.
Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right. And I think at the
Speaker 1: same time, if we're making all of our decisions for
Speaker 1: that future self, that's not going to lead to a
Speaker 1: very satisfying life right now. And you know that future
Speaker 1: self is constantly bugging me about decisions, like I'm going
Speaker 1: to get annoyed by him and probably start start ignoring him,
Speaker 1: right So, I mean, to some extent, this is really
Speaker 1: about some sense of balance, if you will, and flexibility
Speaker 1: between now and later.
Speaker 2: After the break, we talk about how to strike that balance,
Speaker 2: plus a few ways you can build a better relationship
Speaker 2: with your future self. We'll be back in a moment
Speaker 2: with a slight change of plans. I feel like I
Speaker 2: Maya only learned maybe five years ago that I even
Speaker 2: had a present day self, because I'm so.
Speaker 3: Oriented in the future.
Speaker 2: I have been living future self Maya for so long,
Speaker 2: and then recently it was like, oh my gosh, there's
Speaker 2: actually a present day version of the How interesting maybe
Speaker 2: I should invest in now.
Speaker 1: Well, this is so interesting because researchers talk about the
Speaker 1: experience you're describing, as they refer to it as hyperopia.
Speaker 1: So my apia is when I focus so much on
Speaker 1: the present that I missed the future. Hyperopia is where
Speaker 1: I focus so much on the future that I miss
Speaker 1: the present.
Speaker 2: Yes, I feel so seen right now by this random
Speaker 2: technical term.
Speaker 1: Well, what I find so interesting about this is that
Speaker 1: even though hyper apia is being so focused on the future, ironically,
Speaker 1: one of the outcomes of that is that we can
Speaker 1: end up almost doing a disservice to our future selves.
Speaker 1: The classic example of this is I have a gift
Speaker 1: certificate to a restaurant and I hold on to it,
Speaker 1: waiting for the perfect time to go to that restaurant.
Speaker 1: And we could go this weekend, but you know what,
Speaker 1: not this weekend. I want to wait until it's just right.
Speaker 1: And then time goes by and the restaurant closes. And
Speaker 1: now I was thinking about doing something for my future
Speaker 1: self to make it a really great experience, And what
Speaker 1: I've done is robbed him of that experience. I've also
Speaker 1: robbed my present self of doing it now. And there's
Speaker 1: something humorous about that one. But then you think about
Speaker 1: these other cases. You know, maybe I'm working too much,
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm overly focused on certain goals I have, and
Speaker 1: in being so overly focused on them, I miss the
Speaker 1: stuff that's right in front of me. Of course, that
Speaker 1: resonates with me too, and I think it resonates with
Speaker 1: a lot of people. One of the ways that I
Speaker 1: like to think about dealing with this is how do
Speaker 1: I create? And the term I really like here is
Speaker 1: harmony between present and future selves, so that in certain cases,
Speaker 1: the present self can live now to give the future
Speaker 1: self memories to look back on. And another case is
Speaker 1: maybe the present self pulls back a little bit so
Speaker 1: that the future self has more resource is to use
Speaker 1: to create other memories. But if I went one direction
Speaker 1: or the other, it would be almost lumpy from a
Speaker 1: well being standpoint. And what my preference, at least in
Speaker 1: my own life would be is to smooth that out
Speaker 1: so that all those selves have that well being and utility.
Speaker 2: Yeah, by the way, what you described so tracks with
Speaker 2: my experience as a kid. I went home to visit
Speaker 2: my parents in Connecticut. I was up in the attic
Speaker 2: just looking through old boxes of you know, I'm one
Speaker 2: of four kids, so there's a lot of boxes in
Speaker 2: the attic of like our old things, and I find
Speaker 2: this treasure trove of my absolute favorite stationary okay from
Speaker 2: the time, and I was just unwilling to use it. Ever,
Speaker 2: it's like no, apparently I was saving it for the
Speaker 2: perfect occasion with a perfect friend, and there's just piles
Speaker 2: of it. Now this is all useless. It's like Coropi
Speaker 2: and Hello Kitty and all this stuff from this is
Speaker 2: really dating me, all those characters. But it's so useless now.
Speaker 2: But I remember at the moment thinking like, this is gold.
Speaker 2: You need to hold on to it. Maya right, Okay,
Speaker 2: you gotta.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm here to say now is the time I think,
Speaker 1: you know, all future noteshould be on Hello Kitty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just like can't use it recreationally by but
Speaker 2: any what I'm gleaning from this conversation is that you
Speaker 2: will actually become my pen pal after this and I
Speaker 2: will be writing letters to you and all that stationary.
Speaker 2: So it eventually went to good use, right because right
Speaker 2: now it's collecting dust.
Speaker 3: It's in an addict in Connecticut.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, So moving on to those of us who
Speaker 2: struggle to have sufficient empathy for our future selves, it
Speaker 2: strikes me that part of the problem might be that
Speaker 2: we don't empathize enough with our present day selves, and
Speaker 2: so maybe that that's a place where we might start.
Speaker 2: You know, I was interviewing Kristin Neff on the science
Speaker 2: of self compassion for a slight change of plans, and
Speaker 2: so I'm just curious to know how you think about
Speaker 2: the relationship between present day empathy and future empathy. It's like, well,
Speaker 2: I don't I'm not very kind to myself right now,
Speaker 2: and maybe I'm treating myself like I would a stranger
Speaker 2: that I was indifferent towards. It doesn't really well for
Speaker 2: me to really care about seventy year old Maya.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I love that idea, and I think it
Speaker 1: makes perfect sense. It's slightly cheesy metaphor, but you know,
Speaker 1: when you're on an airplane and they say, you know,
Speaker 1: if oxygen mas terdrop, you have to put yours on
Speaker 1: first before you can help someone else. And the whole idea,
Speaker 1: of course, is that if you're rushing to help someone
Speaker 1: else and you haven't take care of yourself first, you'll
Speaker 1: no longer be able to help them. And I think
Speaker 1: absolutely the same could be said for our present and
Speaker 1: future selves. That before we can start taking care of
Speaker 1: that future self and empathizing with them. We have to
Speaker 1: some extent take care of and empathize with the person
Speaker 1: we are right now. I don't know of any empirical
Speaker 1: research that's been done in this space, but man, that's
Speaker 1: a really interesting question.
Speaker 2: So given that, what types of things can we do
Speaker 2: to cultivate a closer relationship with our future selves?
Speaker 1: So one way to think about this is to start
Speaker 1: from the perspective that future self is, in many ways,
Speaker 1: as we've said, like another person. So if you start
Speaker 1: from that perspective, now I can say, all right, well,
Speaker 1: how can we get our cells to foster a greater
Speaker 1: connection to other people. We don't have to reinvent the wheel.
Speaker 1: Charities do this all the time. Marketers do this really well.
Speaker 1: And what they do is they make the recipients of
Speaker 1: charity donations more salient and more vivid and more emotional.
Speaker 1: So let's apply those same lines of thinking to our
Speaker 1: future selves. Let's make them more vivid and more emotional. Right,
Speaker 1: Because if I can feel the emotions, I can feel
Speaker 1: the empathy that's going to drive me to do the actions,
Speaker 1: do the things that make life better. Right. So, you know,
Speaker 1: the high tech version of this. Something I've been playing
Speaker 1: with over the years is to show people what they'll
Speaker 1: look like. Right. We can use age progression technology, and
Speaker 1: my collaborators and I have done this where we actually
Speaker 1: show people what they'll look like in the future. And
Speaker 1: we've played around with this in different context. Most recently,
Speaker 1: we ran a large scale study in Mexico and found
Speaker 1: that people who were exposed to their age progress images
Speaker 1: of their future selves were more likely to make a
Speaker 1: contribution to retirement account. There are lower tech ways to
Speaker 1: do this too, so we don't all have to sit
Speaker 1: around printing out images of our future selves.
Speaker 2: But some of us just all of a sudden have
Speaker 2: a bunch of gray hair on their heads without intending to.
Speaker 1: Suddenly, I have looked in the mirror, and it's it's strange,
Speaker 1: how that is my future self.
Speaker 3: No technology needed in this case.
Speaker 1: Out very very weird how that happens. Yeah, you know so.
Speaker 1: Some lower tech versions of this are a conversational exercise
Speaker 1: writing letter to your future self and then writing a
Speaker 1: letter from your future self. And the reason I say
Speaker 1: that this is a low tech version is because of
Speaker 1: course we're not doing the technology, but it's still doing
Speaker 1: the same thing. It is making that future self more vivid.
Speaker 2: One thought experiment that strikes me as potentially helpful for
Speaker 2: building a stronger connection with your future self is actually
Speaker 2: to look backwards and think about your past and recognize
Speaker 2: that your present day self, which you really care a
Speaker 2: lot about, is the future version of ten years younger Maya. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so like I am actually twenty something Maya's future self
Speaker 2: really care about myself today? I would really have wanted
Speaker 2: twenty something Maya to care about this version of me.
Speaker 2: So is that also an exercise that we can use.
Speaker 1: I think it's a lovely exercise, And so it's not
Speaker 1: something that we've tested. But I love the idea of
Speaker 1: scaffolding things by saying, when I was a present self.
Speaker 3: Ten years ago, yeah, as totally that.
Speaker 1: Past version of me made decisions that now affect the
Speaker 1: person I am right now. You know, when you do that,
Speaker 1: I think it can really highlight these threads of connection
Speaker 1: over time, and you know, really shine a light on
Speaker 1: the idea that the things I did in the past
Speaker 1: have impacted the person I am now, and the things
Speaker 1: I'm doing right now will impact the person I will be,
Speaker 1: and more than that, will also impact the things that
Speaker 1: that person that future me looks back on, either happily
Speaker 1: or regretfully. So, you know, one of the techniques that
Speaker 1: I love is the idea of incre breating commitment devices.
Speaker 1: There's been lots of research on the idea that we
Speaker 1: can recognize that there's a version of me right now,
Speaker 1: and then there's this version of my future self who
Speaker 1: I want to say, you know, has done noble things
Speaker 1: and has eaten healthy and exercise and put on my sunscreen.
Speaker 1: And then there's the sort of you know, version of
Speaker 1: me in the middle who may screw those things up, right,
Speaker 1: the guy who doesn't wake up in the morning to exercise,
Speaker 1: the guy who snacks so much overnight, and then the
Speaker 1: guy who says, you know, I think I'm good on
Speaker 1: the sunscreen. I'd like to get tanner. And so commitment
Speaker 1: devices are an amazing strategy because what they do is
Speaker 1: they put guardrails on our ability to make mistakes in
Speaker 1: the future. And so the idea is that I sort
Speaker 1: of commit to behaving a certain way so that my
Speaker 1: present self wishes can become the things that you know,
Speaker 1: the eventual future version of me actually actually follows through
Speaker 1: on and does.
Speaker 2: Is there an example of a commitment device that you've
Speaker 2: implemented on behalf of future.
Speaker 1: How Okay? So I have like you would almost call
Speaker 1: it a light commitment device. It's a box I have
Speaker 1: at home. It's called a case safe, and it's just
Speaker 1: a little safe with an electronic timer on it.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 1: And so in an ideal world, around dinner time, I
Speaker 1: put my phone in there and I lock it away
Speaker 1: for two hours.
Speaker 3: Oh wow.
Speaker 1: And the commitment there is that I don't have access
Speaker 1: to all the fun things that my phone has on it,
Speaker 1: and the outcome is that I can be much more
Speaker 1: present with my family, you know, around dinner time, bedtime,
Speaker 1: et cetera. There's one catch, though, which is that I
Speaker 1: have to do it. I have to put it in
Speaker 1: there to begin with, right, And so the case safe
Speaker 1: lives in a cabinet. If it was on the counter,
Speaker 1: I think I would do it a lot more. But
Speaker 1: my wife says that it doesn't look great on the counter,
Speaker 1: So so I haven't done that.
Speaker 2: But you know what does look great? Lots of happy
Speaker 2: memories that you kids can look back on.
Speaker 1: Yes, there we go.
Speaker 3: I shall tell you that that's the best form of aesthetic.
Speaker 1: That's what I need to say. And when I do it,
Speaker 1: by the way, it changes the experience of dinner time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because there's not even a temptations, Like the actual only
Speaker 1: way I can get my phone is if I take
Speaker 1: a hammer to the safe.
Speaker 2: Oh that's right, because it's got this electronic thing where
Speaker 2: you can really only get access to it two hours later.
Speaker 3: So once it's in, yeah, it's done.
Speaker 1: Okay, you can set it anywhere from one minute to
Speaker 1: ten days. But it benefits me now and it benefits
Speaker 1: me later.
Speaker 2: How do you think that when we have a more
Speaker 2: empathetic view of our future selves, it could have a
Speaker 2: positive spillover effect on our empathy towards others. And you
Speaker 2: know the reason I'm interested in this is the other
Speaker 2: day I was in the doctor's office and when the
Speaker 2: elevator door opened, I saw this young woman just barrel
Speaker 2: past this older woman that was using a walker, and
Speaker 2: I just wanted to be like, uh.
Speaker 3: Dude, that's going to be you.
Speaker 2: Like, if you're lucky and you make it in this life,
Speaker 2: that will be you, I promise. And so that failure
Speaker 2: of empathy was just so devastating for me to witness.
Speaker 2: I mean, even for non selfish reasons, we should be
Speaker 2: kind to people and consider it. But even for selfish reasons,
Speaker 2: we should recognize that it and inevitably that will be
Speaker 2: our future.
Speaker 1: I've thought about this a lot, because, you know, when
Speaker 1: you think about the way that we empathize with other people,
Speaker 1: by definition, we are not a part of those groups.
Speaker 1: But the one interesting thing here is that I will
Speaker 1: one day become my future self. I will one day
Speaker 1: become an older person, and so I've always wondered, if
Speaker 1: I can increase empathy for my future self, may I
Speaker 1: also increase empathy for older people and vice versa. If
Speaker 1: I can reduce some agism and increase empathy for older people,
Speaker 1: might that spillover to my own self? And it's just
Speaker 1: a wonderful open question right now that we should dig into.
Speaker 2: One challenge we face, especially younger generations, is just feeling
Speaker 2: so much fear about the future, right, feeling so much
Speaker 2: negativity that there's an anxiety and even thinking about future you, right,
Speaker 2: of course, And so how do we grapple with that.
Speaker 1: I've heard younger people say, like, why should I even care?
Speaker 1: Right when jobs are being taken over by AI and
Speaker 1: climate change and inflation, and I'm making myself anxious right
Speaker 1: now listening all these things out, One exercise I like
Speaker 1: to consider is what sort of decisions from the past
Speaker 1: seemed like small decisions at the time, seemed like things
Speaker 1: we might want to ignore, but then became something much
Speaker 1: bigger that we're dealing with right now. And then let
Speaker 1: me sort of translate that over to say, what sort
Speaker 1: of things are happening in the present right now that
Speaker 1: may evolve into something much bigger later. And so even
Speaker 1: though it may be scary and uncertain and undesirable to
Speaker 1: think about the future, we still have agency over it.
Speaker 1: We can still start to think about what are the
Speaker 1: seeds that are being planted right now that I can
Speaker 1: fertilize or pull out and change. And I like using
Speaker 1: that lens to start grappling with some of the uncertainty
Speaker 1: that is existing both now and in the decades and
Speaker 1: even centuries to come.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well on behalf of all future versions of myself.
Speaker 2: Thank you for this interview. How it's been such a
Speaker 2: pleasure to chat with you, so thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Maya, so great to talk to you.
Speaker 2: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my
Speaker 2: conversation with Hal, you might also like my episode with
Speaker 2: psychologist Kristin Nef It's called the Science of Self Compassion.
Speaker 2: And join me next week for a conversation with author
Speaker 2: and happiness expert Gretchen Ruben. We'll talk about how understanding
Speaker 2: our personalities can help us unlock a better path to happiness.
Speaker 3: See you next week. A Slight Change of Plans.
Speaker 2: Is created, written, and executive produced by me Maya Shunker.
Speaker 2: The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our
Speaker 2: senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our producer Trisha Bovida, and
Speaker 2: our sound engineer Andrew Vastola. Louis Scara wrote our delightful
Speaker 2: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A
Speaker 2: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,
Speaker 2: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a
Speaker 2: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A
Speaker 2: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker.
Speaker 3: See you next week.