WEBVTT - Your Future Self Needs Your Help Today 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:32.476 Pushkin, the brain activity that arose when we thought of 0:00:32.516 --> 0:00:35.396 our future selves looked more like the brain activity that 0:00:35.436 --> 0:00:38.716 arose when we thought of others. On a neural level, 0:00:38.756 --> 0:00:40.756 the future self looks like another person. 0:00:41.516 --> 0:00:45.236 Psychologist Hal Hirschfield studies the emotional connection we have to 0:00:45.316 --> 0:00:48.836 our future selves and the benefits of strengthening that connection. 0:00:49.636 --> 0:00:53.956 We've found that people who are connected to their future 0:00:53.956 --> 0:00:57.556 selves are more likely to have saved money over time, 0:00:57.916 --> 0:01:02.636 they exercise more, They're more likely to make ethical decisions, 0:01:02.876 --> 0:01:08.316 and feel more of a sense of meaning in their lives. 0:01:10.036 --> 0:01:13.996 On today's episode, Why Your Future Self Needs Your Help Today, 0:01:16.916 --> 0:01:19.956 I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 0:01:20.436 --> 0:01:22.636 a show about who we are and who we become 0:01:22.876 --> 0:01:23.756 in the face. 0:01:23.556 --> 0:01:31.956 Of a big change. 0:01:36.236 --> 0:01:38.796 Hell is a professor at UCLA and his work is 0:01:38.836 --> 0:01:43.076 at the intersection of psychology and economics. His new book 0:01:43.236 --> 0:01:47.076 is called Your Future Self, How to Make Tomorrow Better Today. 0:01:48.236 --> 0:01:50.556 It might seem funny to think of yourself in this way, 0:01:51.076 --> 0:01:54.196 that there's a present you and a future you. I mean, 0:01:54.316 --> 0:01:57.596 isn't there just one you? But Hell says the way 0:01:57.596 --> 0:02:00.196 your brain thinks about your sense of self isn't quite 0:02:00.196 --> 0:02:01.596 so straightforward. 0:02:01.876 --> 0:02:03.596 I think on the surface many of us would say, 0:02:03.676 --> 0:02:05.876 yet like I am who I am, I'm oneself, You're Maya, 0:02:05.956 --> 0:02:08.316 I'm hal and I have been and you have been. 0:02:09.116 --> 0:02:12.316 So what's interesting here is that if you start thinking 0:02:12.316 --> 0:02:15.196 about your life over time, it becomes a little hard 0:02:15.196 --> 0:02:17.916 to say that you are sort of this single entity. Right. 0:02:17.956 --> 0:02:20.396 Your interests may have changed, your friends may have changed, 0:02:20.436 --> 0:02:22.876 the city you live in, the job you have, like 0:02:22.956 --> 0:02:26.556 all of these things about you, your personality, right, all 0:02:26.596 --> 0:02:29.916 of these things, and so it can be a little 0:02:29.916 --> 0:02:32.196 bit difficult to say that there's sort of this oneself. 0:02:32.236 --> 0:02:35.516 And so I think a better notion to really capture 0:02:35.556 --> 0:02:39.636 the essence of identity over time is that we are 0:02:39.756 --> 0:02:42.516 a collection of separate selves. And so you do have 0:02:42.636 --> 0:02:46.076 the current version of you, current Maya, but then there's 0:02:46.116 --> 0:02:49.356 also a future self. There's a future version of you 0:02:49.516 --> 0:02:52.476 in five years, and there's also a future self that 0:02:52.596 --> 0:02:56.316 exists in twenty years or thirty years. So when I 0:02:56.476 --> 0:02:59.316 talk about current and future selves, what I'm trying to 0:02:59.396 --> 0:03:02.796 reflect is the reality that in many ways we're not 0:03:03.036 --> 0:03:06.116 this stable single entity over time. 0:03:06.596 --> 0:03:11.116 Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's really fascinating neuroscience research and 0:03:11.156 --> 0:03:15.356 psychology research that corroborates this and shows that from a 0:03:15.396 --> 0:03:18.836 psychological point of view, we don't see ourselves as this 0:03:18.956 --> 0:03:22.876 single entity over time that persists, and I think there's 0:03:22.956 --> 0:03:25.276 a lot of benefits from that, right, Maybe it opens 0:03:25.356 --> 0:03:29.036 us up to wonder and curiosity about who we might become. 0:03:29.516 --> 0:03:32.516 But there's also research showing that there's a possible downside 0:03:32.596 --> 0:03:35.356 to seeing ourselves as a collection of cells. And one 0:03:35.356 --> 0:03:38.156 of those downsides is that when we see our future 0:03:38.156 --> 0:03:41.476 cells as a distinct entity from who we are today, 0:03:42.076 --> 0:03:44.876 it can lead to our having less empathy towards that 0:03:44.916 --> 0:03:48.196 future self. And so, can you tell me how about 0:03:48.556 --> 0:03:51.036 what I find to be just an amazing neuroscience study 0:03:51.436 --> 0:03:56.156 showing how our brains perceive our present day self and 0:03:56.196 --> 0:03:57.036 our future self. 0:03:57.556 --> 0:04:00.916 So, one of the things that neuroscientists have found is 0:04:00.956 --> 0:04:03.396 that there's a different pattern of activity in the brain 0:04:03.476 --> 0:04:06.036 when people think about themselves compared to when they think 0:04:06.076 --> 0:04:08.916 about others. Now, my collaborators and I said, let's take 0:04:08.956 --> 0:04:12.876 these same ideas and apply them to thoughts of future selves. 0:04:13.556 --> 0:04:15.596 And what we found is that when we put people 0:04:15.636 --> 0:04:18.916 into the scanner, the brain activity that arose when people 0:04:18.996 --> 0:04:22.636 thought of their future selves looked more like the brain 0:04:22.676 --> 0:04:26.356 activity that arose when they thought of other people, which 0:04:26.396 --> 0:04:28.716 is really striking in a way. It's on the neural level, 0:04:28.756 --> 0:04:32.316 the future self looks like another person. Wow, it suggests 0:04:32.316 --> 0:04:34.116 that we are thinking of those future selves as if 0:04:34.116 --> 0:04:37.276 they are other people. Now, there's an important caveat here, 0:04:37.316 --> 0:04:41.036 which is that that's on average. Some people had patterns 0:04:41.036 --> 0:04:43.236 in the brain where the future self looked wildly like 0:04:43.276 --> 0:04:46.436 another person, and some people the difference was much smaller. 0:04:47.196 --> 0:04:50.516 Now a couple weeks later, we brought those same people 0:04:50.556 --> 0:04:53.356 back to the lab and we gave them decisions that 0:04:53.356 --> 0:04:55.316 they could make between smaller amounts of money that they 0:04:55.356 --> 0:04:58.076 could have right now and larger amounts of money they 0:04:58.076 --> 0:05:00.516 could have later. It's sort of a classic present future 0:05:00.556 --> 0:05:03.676 trade off. It's a little like spending versus saving, and it's. 0:05:03.516 --> 0:05:06.036 Really asking at its heart, how much do you care 0:05:06.076 --> 0:05:08.356 about your future self being happy with this sum of 0:05:08.396 --> 0:05:10.156 money versus your present day self? 0:05:10.316 --> 0:05:13.196 Right exactly. So, on the one hand, what we found 0:05:13.276 --> 0:05:15.116 is that the people for whom the future self looked 0:05:15.156 --> 0:05:17.676 most like another person, they said, I'll take the money 0:05:17.756 --> 0:05:19.716 right now and not save it for later. But then 0:05:19.796 --> 0:05:22.196 the flip side, the people for whom the future self 0:05:22.236 --> 0:05:27.076 looked most similar, most connected to the current self. Those 0:05:27.116 --> 0:05:29.876 are the ones who said, I'll wait, I'll wait till 0:05:29.956 --> 0:05:32.956 later and take more money for a future version of me. 0:05:33.556 --> 0:05:34.156 Yeah. 0:05:34.596 --> 0:05:37.996 Are there any psychological studies that look at the amount 0:05:37.996 --> 0:05:40.116 of empathy that we have towards our future selves. 0:05:40.996 --> 0:05:42.716 There is one study that comes to mind. So krim 0:05:42.756 --> 0:05:44.476 ca some and his colleagues did this work where they 0:05:44.556 --> 0:05:47.076 might say that people imagine you to win a lottery 0:05:47.156 --> 0:05:49.396 right now, how happy would you be on it, you know, 0:05:49.396 --> 0:05:52.836 on a one to ten scale, about an eight, I guess, 0:05:53.236 --> 0:05:55.996 And then they ask people how happy would you be 0:05:56.036 --> 0:05:57.876 if you want sort of an equivalent, you know, let's 0:05:57.876 --> 0:06:01.516 adjusted for inflation, lottery in the future, in five years, 0:06:01.556 --> 0:06:04.876 two years, whatever it might be. And the interesting thing 0:06:04.956 --> 0:06:07.316 there is that people's responses are lower. So I say, oh, 0:06:07.316 --> 0:06:09.036 I don't know, I'd be about a six or seven. 0:06:09.756 --> 0:06:12.036 And it's funny because if it's the same amount of money, 0:06:12.076 --> 0:06:14.796 you think I'd be the same amount of happy. But 0:06:14.916 --> 0:06:18.716 the reality is, somehow the things that are happening now 0:06:18.876 --> 0:06:21.316 feel stronger, and the things that are happening in the 0:06:21.316 --> 0:06:23.636 future feel somehow more muted. 0:06:24.236 --> 0:06:26.676 Another study that I love, which I think shows the 0:06:26.716 --> 0:06:29.316 same result that emerges from the neuroscience study is shown 0:06:29.316 --> 0:06:32.356 in this psychological study in terms of our frame of 0:06:32.436 --> 0:06:34.916 reference when we're thinking about our present day self and 0:06:34.956 --> 0:06:38.596 our future self. And gosh, I love this one. It 0:06:38.636 --> 0:06:41.356 feels so viscerally true in my own experience. So do 0:06:41.396 --> 0:06:43.396 you mind describing this particular study? 0:06:43.836 --> 0:06:46.756 Yes? So, Emily Pronin and Lee Ross did this great work. 0:06:46.956 --> 0:06:49.196 They ask people to describe a meal they're having right now, 0:06:49.796 --> 0:06:52.876 and when people do that, they naturally use the first 0:06:52.876 --> 0:06:55.996 person perspective. I am eating plasta, I am eating a 0:06:56.036 --> 0:06:58.156 sandwich or whatever it is. And then they ask a 0:06:58.156 --> 0:07:01.116 different group to imagine a meal in the very distant future. 0:07:01.996 --> 0:07:05.796 And when a different group of people do that exercise, 0:07:06.796 --> 0:07:09.596 some of them say, oh, I'll be eating pasta, I'll 0:07:09.596 --> 0:07:12.356 beating a sandwich, but way more of them switch to 0:07:12.436 --> 0:07:16.436 say he is eating a sandwich, He's eating pasta. They 0:07:16.476 --> 0:07:19.636 flip to use the third person perspective when thinking about 0:07:19.676 --> 0:07:21.956 their future self. And this is work that's been replicated 0:07:21.956 --> 0:07:24.676 by Neil McCrae and others as well. And I find 0:07:24.716 --> 0:07:27.996 it so interesting because it suggests that on this subtle 0:07:28.036 --> 0:07:31.436 psychological level, we make this little flip in our mind 0:07:32.156 --> 0:07:35.196 so that our future self now is seen as another. 0:07:35.556 --> 0:07:38.476 Yeah, when I sit here and then I imagine myself 0:07:38.516 --> 0:07:41.116 if I'm so lucky that I'm here many decades from now, 0:07:42.276 --> 0:07:47.556 in say a convalescent home. Right, I'm looking at myself 0:07:48.956 --> 0:07:50.956 sitting in the convalescent home. 0:07:51.236 --> 0:07:51.436 Right. 0:07:51.516 --> 0:07:53.516 I have the ability to imagine myself in the first person. 0:07:53.516 --> 0:07:56.796 But it's not what comes instinctively, Whereas if I imagine 0:07:57.236 --> 0:08:00.236 my life today or imagine my life tomorrow, I am 0:08:00.276 --> 0:08:03.636 seeing it through the mind's eye. So why do you 0:08:03.676 --> 0:08:05.476 think we're like this? So why do you think it 0:08:05.596 --> 0:08:08.636 is that we feel less empathy towards our future selves 0:08:08.676 --> 0:08:10.436 than we might otherwise want to. 0:08:11.276 --> 0:08:12.836 I mean, I think to some extent you could go 0:08:12.956 --> 0:08:15.636 back in history and come up with an answer. Right, 0:08:15.716 --> 0:08:18.756 when life expectancy was much shorter, it really made sense 0:08:18.796 --> 0:08:22.076 to focus on what was certain, which was the present. Right, 0:08:22.596 --> 0:08:24.996 the distant future is wildly uncertain. Why should I do 0:08:25.076 --> 0:08:29.596 anything for it? But now we're living much longer, especially 0:08:29.596 --> 0:08:35.236 in developed countries, and not empathizing with the future self 0:08:35.996 --> 0:08:39.756 can look as if we are almost overly focused on 0:08:40.236 --> 0:08:42.116 the present self. It sort of brings up the concept 0:08:42.116 --> 0:08:45.276 of what behavioral economists and psycholoists called present bias, which 0:08:45.316 --> 0:08:47.356 is that we are to some extent bias towards the 0:08:47.396 --> 0:08:49.396 things that are happening now, so much so that we 0:08:49.516 --> 0:08:53.876 end up really undervaluing things that will happen to some 0:08:54.236 --> 0:08:58.076 future version of ourselves. So if our future self is 0:08:58.716 --> 0:09:01.196 the type of person who we know exists but we 0:09:01.236 --> 0:09:04.796 don't really care about them, then we're probably not going 0:09:04.836 --> 0:09:07.476 to be doing things for their benefit. 0:09:09.316 --> 0:09:11.636 Are there any other studies showing that the way we 0:09:11.796 --> 0:09:15.436 view our future self can change the kinds of decisions 0:09:15.436 --> 0:09:17.356 we make on behalf of that future self. 0:09:17.996 --> 0:09:21.676 Absolutely so. In my own work, we've found that people 0:09:21.676 --> 0:09:25.196 who are connected to their future selves are more likely 0:09:25.276 --> 0:09:30.196 to have saved money over time, they experience greater financial wellbeing, 0:09:31.196 --> 0:09:34.756 they perform in more patient ways and laboratory tasks, you know. 0:09:34.836 --> 0:09:38.396 Other research has even found that the people who experience 0:09:38.436 --> 0:09:42.076 a greater sense of similarity and connection with their future 0:09:42.116 --> 0:09:45.316 selves also feel more of a sense of meaning in 0:09:45.356 --> 0:09:49.276 their lives. They're more likely to make ethical decisions when 0:09:49.276 --> 0:09:51.596 given the option to act unethically, which is another one 0:09:51.636 --> 0:09:53.916 of these sort of present future trade offs. 0:09:54.436 --> 0:09:57.156 Wait, tell me more about that one. How that's fascinating. 0:09:57.476 --> 0:09:59.356 Well, if you think about it, If I'm given the 0:09:59.396 --> 0:10:02.196 option to cut a corner right now and get a 0:10:02.236 --> 0:10:04.556 little benefit right now, the trade off there is that 0:10:04.596 --> 0:10:06.036 I get something right now, but I also have the 0:10:06.076 --> 0:10:07.476 possibility of getting punished later. 0:10:07.556 --> 0:10:10.116 Yeah, we're guilt feeling of guilt later. 0:10:10.076 --> 0:10:13.796 Or guilt later, right, And I have researched with collaborators 0:10:13.836 --> 0:10:17.716 where we found that the people who experience a lower 0:10:17.716 --> 0:10:20.996 degree of connection with their future selves, they're more likely 0:10:21.076 --> 0:10:26.876 to opt for unethical negotiation strategies. Fascinating when given the opportunity, 0:10:26.916 --> 0:10:29.796 and that we even see this. It's a small effect 0:10:29.836 --> 0:10:31.636 that we see in laboratory settings where they get the 0:10:31.636 --> 0:10:33.796 opportunity to sort of cheat, if you will. 0:10:34.676 --> 0:10:37.556 Given that we might change in unexpected ways, given that 0:10:37.596 --> 0:10:39.836 we will change, I should just say it's inevitability we 0:10:39.876 --> 0:10:43.116 will change in unexpected ways in the future. It can 0:10:43.116 --> 0:10:45.716 become a little bit tricky to figure out who we're 0:10:45.756 --> 0:10:49.916 actually making decisions on behalf of right, So when I 0:10:49.916 --> 0:10:52.076 make a decision today on behalf of my future self, 0:10:52.156 --> 0:10:55.476 I am incorporating my current preferences, my current values, my 0:10:55.556 --> 0:10:58.996 current beliefs into that decision. Making calculus and those things 0:10:59.076 --> 0:11:03.156 might radically change. And so let's say, like how you've 0:11:03.156 --> 0:11:05.476 convinced me I need to bridge any empathy gaps that 0:11:05.516 --> 0:11:07.276 exist between my present self and my future self. I 0:11:07.316 --> 0:11:09.836 need to care a lot more about future Maya. But 0:11:10.716 --> 0:11:12.356 I don't know who I'm solving for. 0:11:13.716 --> 0:11:16.476 Of course, if we're planning, we have to base those 0:11:16.476 --> 0:11:19.356 plans off of something, and the most relevant something is 0:11:19.356 --> 0:11:21.436 how we feel right now and who we are right now. 0:11:22.036 --> 0:11:24.756 And as you pointed it out really well, that change 0:11:24.796 --> 0:11:28.996 changes us and we can't fully anticipate those changes. At 0:11:28.996 --> 0:11:31.476 the same time, we can look to the core of 0:11:31.556 --> 0:11:35.236 us and the things that matter and try to make 0:11:35.316 --> 0:11:39.156 plans based on the values that we hold and what's 0:11:39.276 --> 0:11:42.236 important right now. And I want to layer on top 0:11:42.276 --> 0:11:46.036 of that the need to revisit our plans and be 0:11:47.076 --> 0:11:50.756 compassionate with the idea that some of those values and 0:11:50.796 --> 0:11:53.796 some of our preferences may change over time. 0:11:54.396 --> 0:11:56.916 Are there predictable ways in which we might change that 0:11:56.956 --> 0:11:58.836 we can account for now in terms of the decisions 0:11:58.876 --> 0:12:01.916 we make, or are there at least stable aspects of 0:12:01.996 --> 0:12:04.956 who we end up being that we can feel fairly 0:12:04.996 --> 0:12:05.476 good about. 0:12:05.796 --> 0:12:08.236 Yeah, your question also gets a sort of this nuanced 0:12:08.236 --> 0:12:11.196 psychology of how much we actually change over time and 0:12:11.236 --> 0:12:13.956 in some ways. You know, what personality psychologists suggests is 0:12:13.956 --> 0:12:17.116 that it depends on where you look. In some ways 0:12:17.996 --> 0:12:20.516 we change and other ways we've remain the same. And 0:12:20.556 --> 0:12:26.436 so you know, there's the big five personality traits openness, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, neuroticism. 0:12:26.956 --> 0:12:28.996 Over a ten year period, we can expect one of 0:12:29.036 --> 0:12:31.356 those to change. There's a good chance that one of 0:12:31.436 --> 0:12:34.076 those traits will change, which is wild in a way. Right, 0:12:34.156 --> 0:12:36.076 there's the five core traits. One of them changes. 0:12:36.196 --> 0:12:37.756 Can I choose neuroticism? 0:12:37.756 --> 0:12:38.076 Please? 0:12:38.556 --> 0:12:40.916 Can I talk to the psychology nods. I'd like to 0:12:40.996 --> 0:12:41.916 change that one everyone. 0:12:42.076 --> 0:12:44.796 Yeah, my magic eight ball says that one is fixed. 0:12:45.116 --> 0:12:45.956 Oh damn it. 0:12:46.956 --> 0:12:49.116 You know, you know, we can expect right to get 0:12:49.196 --> 0:12:52.956 a more conscientious over time, and yet some of the 0:12:52.996 --> 0:12:56.196 other traits may remain quite stable. And obviously there's lots 0:12:56.196 --> 0:12:59.916 of videosyncrasies here, and there's individual differences. We can't predict 0:13:00.516 --> 0:13:03.996 what environmental factors and what external factors will will change 0:13:03.996 --> 0:13:04.596 those things. 0:13:04.876 --> 0:13:07.596 Yeah, and I think the broader message is sure there 0:13:07.636 --> 0:13:10.756 might be some misforecast about how we think will end up. 0:13:10.796 --> 0:13:13.756 But it's better to care period about your future self, 0:13:13.756 --> 0:13:15.836 so at least that can be integrated into your present 0:13:15.876 --> 0:13:16.596 day decisions. 0:13:17.276 --> 0:13:19.356 I think that's exactly right. And I think at the 0:13:19.396 --> 0:13:22.076 same time, if we're making all of our decisions for 0:13:22.116 --> 0:13:24.276 that future self, that's not going to lead to a 0:13:24.396 --> 0:13:27.156 very satisfying life right now. And you know that future 0:13:27.156 --> 0:13:30.076 self is constantly bugging me about decisions, like I'm going 0:13:30.116 --> 0:13:33.636 to get annoyed by him and probably start start ignoring him, 0:13:33.676 --> 0:13:35.716 right So, I mean, to some extent, this is really 0:13:35.756 --> 0:13:39.236 about some sense of balance, if you will, and flexibility 0:13:39.276 --> 0:13:40.116 between now and later. 0:13:40.916 --> 0:13:43.796 After the break, we talk about how to strike that balance, 0:13:44.316 --> 0:13:46.916 plus a few ways you can build a better relationship 0:13:46.956 --> 0:13:52.516 with your future self. We'll be back in a moment 0:13:52.636 --> 0:14:08.076 with a slight change of plans. I feel like I 0:14:08.556 --> 0:14:11.756 Maya only learned maybe five years ago that I even 0:14:11.756 --> 0:14:14.556 had a present day self, because I'm so. 0:14:14.716 --> 0:14:15.836 Oriented in the future. 0:14:16.196 --> 0:14:19.316 I have been living future self Maya for so long, 0:14:19.716 --> 0:14:22.316 and then recently it was like, oh my gosh, there's 0:14:22.356 --> 0:14:25.116 actually a present day version of the How interesting maybe 0:14:25.156 --> 0:14:26.236 I should invest in now. 0:14:26.556 --> 0:14:30.796 Well, this is so interesting because researchers talk about the 0:14:30.836 --> 0:14:34.716 experience you're describing, as they refer to it as hyperopia. 0:14:35.116 --> 0:14:37.516 So my apia is when I focus so much on 0:14:37.516 --> 0:14:39.956 the present that I missed the future. Hyperopia is where 0:14:39.996 --> 0:14:41.756 I focus so much on the future that I miss 0:14:41.916 --> 0:14:42.356 the present. 0:14:42.556 --> 0:14:45.476 Yes, I feel so seen right now by this random 0:14:45.516 --> 0:14:46.276 technical term. 0:14:50.196 --> 0:14:53.076 Well, what I find so interesting about this is that 0:14:53.796 --> 0:14:57.396 even though hyper apia is being so focused on the future, ironically, 0:14:57.396 --> 0:14:59.316 one of the outcomes of that is that we can 0:14:59.396 --> 0:15:02.916 end up almost doing a disservice to our future selves. 0:15:03.316 --> 0:15:06.676 The classic example of this is I have a gift 0:15:06.676 --> 0:15:08.636 certificate to a restaurant and I hold on to it, 0:15:08.676 --> 0:15:11.356 waiting for the perfect time to go to that restaurant. 0:15:11.556 --> 0:15:13.236 And we could go this weekend, but you know what, 0:15:13.476 --> 0:15:15.516 not this weekend. I want to wait until it's just right. 0:15:15.556 --> 0:15:18.356 And then time goes by and the restaurant closes. And 0:15:18.396 --> 0:15:21.716 now I was thinking about doing something for my future 0:15:21.716 --> 0:15:23.556 self to make it a really great experience, And what 0:15:23.596 --> 0:15:25.756 I've done is robbed him of that experience. I've also 0:15:25.836 --> 0:15:28.676 robbed my present self of doing it now. And there's 0:15:28.716 --> 0:15:30.636 something humorous about that one. But then you think about 0:15:30.636 --> 0:15:33.996 these other cases. You know, maybe I'm working too much, 0:15:34.036 --> 0:15:38.556 Maybe I'm overly focused on certain goals I have, and 0:15:38.556 --> 0:15:40.796 in being so overly focused on them, I miss the 0:15:40.796 --> 0:15:43.036 stuff that's right in front of me. Of course, that 0:15:43.076 --> 0:15:45.196 resonates with me too, and I think it resonates with 0:15:45.236 --> 0:15:48.436 a lot of people. One of the ways that I 0:15:48.476 --> 0:15:51.036 like to think about dealing with this is how do 0:15:51.116 --> 0:15:53.436 I create? And the term I really like here is 0:15:53.476 --> 0:15:58.396 harmony between present and future selves, so that in certain cases, 0:15:58.436 --> 0:16:01.236 the present self can live now to give the future 0:16:01.276 --> 0:16:04.676 self memories to look back on. And another case is 0:16:05.276 --> 0:16:07.316 maybe the present self pulls back a little bit so 0:16:07.356 --> 0:16:10.036 that the future self has more resource is to use 0:16:10.236 --> 0:16:13.556 to create other memories. But if I went one direction 0:16:13.676 --> 0:16:17.196 or the other, it would be almost lumpy from a 0:16:17.196 --> 0:16:20.596 well being standpoint. And what my preference, at least in 0:16:20.596 --> 0:16:22.276 my own life would be is to smooth that out 0:16:22.556 --> 0:16:25.836 so that all those selves have that well being and utility. 0:16:26.196 --> 0:16:28.796 Yeah, by the way, what you described so tracks with 0:16:28.836 --> 0:16:31.276 my experience as a kid. I went home to visit 0:16:31.316 --> 0:16:33.156 my parents in Connecticut. I was up in the attic 0:16:33.236 --> 0:16:35.436 just looking through old boxes of you know, I'm one 0:16:35.436 --> 0:16:37.036 of four kids, so there's a lot of boxes in 0:16:37.036 --> 0:16:39.596 the attic of like our old things, and I find 0:16:40.116 --> 0:16:45.556 this treasure trove of my absolute favorite stationary okay from 0:16:45.596 --> 0:16:48.996 the time, and I was just unwilling to use it. Ever, 0:16:49.076 --> 0:16:51.676 it's like no, apparently I was saving it for the 0:16:51.676 --> 0:16:55.796 perfect occasion with a perfect friend, and there's just piles 0:16:55.796 --> 0:16:57.756 of it. Now this is all useless. It's like Coropi 0:16:57.916 --> 0:17:01.036 and Hello Kitty and all this stuff from this is 0:17:01.076 --> 0:17:05.916 really dating me, all those characters. But it's so useless now. 0:17:05.956 --> 0:17:08.956 But I remember at the moment thinking like, this is gold. 0:17:09.316 --> 0:17:11.556 You need to hold on to it. Maya right, Okay, 0:17:11.636 --> 0:17:12.036 you gotta. 0:17:12.556 --> 0:17:14.636 Yeah, I'm here to say now is the time I think, 0:17:14.716 --> 0:17:18.076 you know, all future noteshould be on Hello Kitty. 0:17:18.156 --> 0:17:20.756 Yeah, you just like can't use it recreationally by but 0:17:20.796 --> 0:17:23.676 any what I'm gleaning from this conversation is that you 0:17:23.756 --> 0:17:26.156 will actually become my pen pal after this and I 0:17:26.236 --> 0:17:28.876 will be writing letters to you and all that stationary. 0:17:28.916 --> 0:17:31.196 So it eventually went to good use, right because right 0:17:31.236 --> 0:17:32.316 now it's collecting dust. 0:17:32.756 --> 0:17:34.236 It's in an addict in Connecticut. 0:17:34.316 --> 0:17:36.956 Yes, okay, So moving on to those of us who 0:17:36.956 --> 0:17:40.556 struggle to have sufficient empathy for our future selves, it 0:17:40.676 --> 0:17:44.716 strikes me that part of the problem might be that 0:17:44.756 --> 0:17:48.236 we don't empathize enough with our present day selves, and 0:17:48.316 --> 0:17:50.636 so maybe that that's a place where we might start. 0:17:50.676 --> 0:17:52.756 You know, I was interviewing Kristin Neff on the science 0:17:52.756 --> 0:17:55.356 of self compassion for a slight change of plans, and 0:17:55.436 --> 0:17:57.756 so I'm just curious to know how you think about 0:17:57.796 --> 0:18:01.556 the relationship between present day empathy and future empathy. It's like, well, 0:18:01.556 --> 0:18:03.876 I don't I'm not very kind to myself right now, 0:18:04.236 --> 0:18:06.836 and maybe I'm treating myself like I would a stranger 0:18:06.876 --> 0:18:09.596 that I was indifferent towards. It doesn't really well for 0:18:09.716 --> 0:18:12.036 me to really care about seventy year old Maya. 0:18:12.276 --> 0:18:14.836 Yeah, no, I love that idea, and I think it 0:18:15.156 --> 0:18:17.996 makes perfect sense. It's slightly cheesy metaphor, but you know, 0:18:18.036 --> 0:18:19.556 when you're on an airplane and they say, you know, 0:18:19.596 --> 0:18:21.836 if oxygen mas terdrop, you have to put yours on 0:18:21.876 --> 0:18:23.756 first before you can help someone else. And the whole idea, 0:18:23.796 --> 0:18:26.516 of course, is that if you're rushing to help someone 0:18:26.596 --> 0:18:28.636 else and you haven't take care of yourself first, you'll 0:18:28.636 --> 0:18:30.996 no longer be able to help them. And I think 0:18:31.316 --> 0:18:33.636 absolutely the same could be said for our present and 0:18:33.676 --> 0:18:36.876 future selves. That before we can start taking care of 0:18:36.916 --> 0:18:40.156 that future self and empathizing with them. We have to 0:18:40.316 --> 0:18:42.716 some extent take care of and empathize with the person 0:18:42.756 --> 0:18:45.276 we are right now. I don't know of any empirical 0:18:45.276 --> 0:18:47.596 research that's been done in this space, but man, that's 0:18:47.596 --> 0:18:48.756 a really interesting question. 0:18:49.356 --> 0:18:52.556 So given that, what types of things can we do 0:18:52.716 --> 0:18:55.956 to cultivate a closer relationship with our future selves? 0:18:56.556 --> 0:18:58.596 So one way to think about this is to start 0:18:58.596 --> 0:19:01.516 from the perspective that future self is, in many ways, 0:19:01.516 --> 0:19:04.716 as we've said, like another person. So if you start 0:19:04.756 --> 0:19:06.716 from that perspective, now I can say, all right, well, 0:19:07.276 --> 0:19:11.236 how can we get our cells to foster a greater 0:19:11.316 --> 0:19:14.396 connection to other people. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. 0:19:14.516 --> 0:19:17.596 Charities do this all the time. Marketers do this really well. 0:19:17.596 --> 0:19:20.996 And what they do is they make the recipients of 0:19:21.196 --> 0:19:26.156 charity donations more salient and more vivid and more emotional. 0:19:26.196 --> 0:19:29.356 So let's apply those same lines of thinking to our 0:19:29.396 --> 0:19:33.756 future selves. Let's make them more vivid and more emotional. Right, 0:19:33.796 --> 0:19:35.836 Because if I can feel the emotions, I can feel 0:19:35.876 --> 0:19:38.556 the empathy that's going to drive me to do the actions, 0:19:38.636 --> 0:19:40.956 do the things that make life better. Right. So, you know, 0:19:41.076 --> 0:19:43.076 the high tech version of this. Something I've been playing 0:19:43.076 --> 0:19:45.596 with over the years is to show people what they'll 0:19:45.596 --> 0:19:50.116 look like. Right. We can use age progression technology, and 0:19:50.196 --> 0:19:52.356 my collaborators and I have done this where we actually 0:19:52.436 --> 0:19:55.076 show people what they'll look like in the future. And 0:19:55.156 --> 0:19:57.756 we've played around with this in different context. Most recently, 0:19:57.756 --> 0:20:01.396 we ran a large scale study in Mexico and found 0:20:01.476 --> 0:20:04.556 that people who were exposed to their age progress images 0:20:04.596 --> 0:20:07.156 of their future selves were more likely to make a 0:20:07.196 --> 0:20:12.716 contribution to retirement account. There are lower tech ways to 0:20:12.756 --> 0:20:14.636 do this too, so we don't all have to sit 0:20:14.676 --> 0:20:17.356 around printing out images of our future selves. 0:20:17.396 --> 0:20:19.796 But some of us just all of a sudden have 0:20:19.836 --> 0:20:22.676 a bunch of gray hair on their heads without intending to. 0:20:23.396 --> 0:20:25.956 Suddenly, I have looked in the mirror, and it's it's strange, 0:20:26.036 --> 0:20:27.316 how that is my future self. 0:20:27.476 --> 0:20:29.036 No technology needed in this case. 0:20:29.076 --> 0:20:33.436 Out very very weird how that happens. Yeah, you know so. 0:20:33.556 --> 0:20:36.716 Some lower tech versions of this are a conversational exercise 0:20:37.396 --> 0:20:40.596 writing letter to your future self and then writing a 0:20:40.676 --> 0:20:43.996 letter from your future self. And the reason I say 0:20:44.036 --> 0:20:45.636 that this is a low tech version is because of 0:20:45.636 --> 0:20:47.436 course we're not doing the technology, but it's still doing 0:20:47.476 --> 0:20:51.716