1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:32,476 Speaker 1: Pushkin, the brain activity that arose when we thought of 2 00:00:32,516 --> 00:00:35,396 Speaker 1: our future selves looked more like the brain activity that 3 00:00:35,436 --> 00:00:38,716 Speaker 1: arose when we thought of others. On a neural level, 4 00:00:38,756 --> 00:00:40,756 Speaker 1: the future self looks like another person. 5 00:00:41,516 --> 00:00:45,236 Speaker 2: Psychologist Hal Hirschfield studies the emotional connection we have to 6 00:00:45,316 --> 00:00:48,836 Speaker 2: our future selves and the benefits of strengthening that connection. 7 00:00:49,636 --> 00:00:53,956 Speaker 1: We've found that people who are connected to their future 8 00:00:53,956 --> 00:00:57,556 Speaker 1: selves are more likely to have saved money over time, 9 00:00:57,916 --> 00:01:02,636 Speaker 1: they exercise more, They're more likely to make ethical decisions, 10 00:01:02,876 --> 00:01:08,316 Speaker 1: and feel more of a sense of meaning in their lives. 11 00:01:10,036 --> 00:01:13,996 Speaker 2: On today's episode, Why Your Future Self Needs Your Help Today, 12 00:01:16,916 --> 00:01:19,956 Speaker 2: I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 13 00:01:20,436 --> 00:01:22,636 Speaker 2: a show about who we are and who we become 14 00:01:22,876 --> 00:01:23,756 Speaker 2: in the face. 15 00:01:23,556 --> 00:01:31,956 Speaker 3: Of a big change. 16 00:01:36,236 --> 00:01:38,796 Speaker 2: Hell is a professor at UCLA and his work is 17 00:01:38,836 --> 00:01:43,076 Speaker 2: at the intersection of psychology and economics. His new book 18 00:01:43,236 --> 00:01:47,076 Speaker 2: is called Your Future Self, How to Make Tomorrow Better Today. 19 00:01:48,236 --> 00:01:50,556 Speaker 2: It might seem funny to think of yourself in this way, 20 00:01:51,076 --> 00:01:54,196 Speaker 2: that there's a present you and a future you. I mean, 21 00:01:54,316 --> 00:01:57,596 Speaker 2: isn't there just one you? But Hell says the way 22 00:01:57,596 --> 00:02:00,196 Speaker 2: your brain thinks about your sense of self isn't quite 23 00:02:00,196 --> 00:02:01,596 Speaker 2: so straightforward. 24 00:02:01,876 --> 00:02:03,596 Speaker 1: I think on the surface many of us would say, 25 00:02:03,676 --> 00:02:05,876 Speaker 1: yet like I am who I am, I'm oneself, You're Maya, 26 00:02:05,956 --> 00:02:08,316 Speaker 1: I'm hal and I have been and you have been. 27 00:02:09,116 --> 00:02:12,316 Speaker 1: So what's interesting here is that if you start thinking 28 00:02:12,316 --> 00:02:15,196 Speaker 1: about your life over time, it becomes a little hard 29 00:02:15,196 --> 00:02:17,916 Speaker 1: to say that you are sort of this single entity. Right. 30 00:02:17,956 --> 00:02:20,396 Speaker 1: Your interests may have changed, your friends may have changed, 31 00:02:20,436 --> 00:02:22,876 Speaker 1: the city you live in, the job you have, like 32 00:02:22,956 --> 00:02:26,556 Speaker 1: all of these things about you, your personality, right, all 33 00:02:26,596 --> 00:02:29,916 Speaker 1: of these things, and so it can be a little 34 00:02:29,916 --> 00:02:32,196 Speaker 1: bit difficult to say that there's sort of this oneself. 35 00:02:32,236 --> 00:02:35,516 Speaker 1: And so I think a better notion to really capture 36 00:02:35,556 --> 00:02:39,636 Speaker 1: the essence of identity over time is that we are 37 00:02:39,756 --> 00:02:42,516 Speaker 1: a collection of separate selves. And so you do have 38 00:02:42,636 --> 00:02:46,076 Speaker 1: the current version of you, current Maya, but then there's 39 00:02:46,116 --> 00:02:49,356 Speaker 1: also a future self. There's a future version of you 40 00:02:49,516 --> 00:02:52,476 Speaker 1: in five years, and there's also a future self that 41 00:02:52,596 --> 00:02:56,316 Speaker 1: exists in twenty years or thirty years. So when I 42 00:02:56,476 --> 00:02:59,316 Speaker 1: talk about current and future selves, what I'm trying to 43 00:02:59,396 --> 00:03:02,796 Speaker 1: reflect is the reality that in many ways we're not 44 00:03:03,036 --> 00:03:06,116 Speaker 1: this stable single entity over time. 45 00:03:06,596 --> 00:03:11,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's really fascinating neuroscience research and 46 00:03:11,156 --> 00:03:15,356 Speaker 2: psychology research that corroborates this and shows that from a 47 00:03:15,396 --> 00:03:18,836 Speaker 2: psychological point of view, we don't see ourselves as this 48 00:03:18,956 --> 00:03:22,876 Speaker 2: single entity over time that persists, and I think there's 49 00:03:22,956 --> 00:03:25,276 Speaker 2: a lot of benefits from that, right, Maybe it opens 50 00:03:25,356 --> 00:03:29,036 Speaker 2: us up to wonder and curiosity about who we might become. 51 00:03:29,516 --> 00:03:32,516 Speaker 2: But there's also research showing that there's a possible downside 52 00:03:32,596 --> 00:03:35,356 Speaker 2: to seeing ourselves as a collection of cells. And one 53 00:03:35,356 --> 00:03:38,156 Speaker 2: of those downsides is that when we see our future 54 00:03:38,156 --> 00:03:41,476 Speaker 2: cells as a distinct entity from who we are today, 55 00:03:42,076 --> 00:03:44,876 Speaker 2: it can lead to our having less empathy towards that 56 00:03:44,916 --> 00:03:48,196 Speaker 2: future self. And so, can you tell me how about 57 00:03:48,556 --> 00:03:51,036 Speaker 2: what I find to be just an amazing neuroscience study 58 00:03:51,436 --> 00:03:56,156 Speaker 2: showing how our brains perceive our present day self and 59 00:03:56,196 --> 00:03:57,036 Speaker 2: our future self. 60 00:03:57,556 --> 00:04:00,916 Speaker 1: So, one of the things that neuroscientists have found is 61 00:04:00,956 --> 00:04:03,396 Speaker 1: that there's a different pattern of activity in the brain 62 00:04:03,476 --> 00:04:06,036 Speaker 1: when people think about themselves compared to when they think 63 00:04:06,076 --> 00:04:08,916 Speaker 1: about others. Now, my collaborators and I said, let's take 64 00:04:08,956 --> 00:04:12,876 Speaker 1: these same ideas and apply them to thoughts of future selves. 65 00:04:13,556 --> 00:04:15,596 Speaker 1: And what we found is that when we put people 66 00:04:15,636 --> 00:04:18,916 Speaker 1: into the scanner, the brain activity that arose when people 67 00:04:18,996 --> 00:04:22,636 Speaker 1: thought of their future selves looked more like the brain 68 00:04:22,676 --> 00:04:26,356 Speaker 1: activity that arose when they thought of other people, which 69 00:04:26,396 --> 00:04:28,716 Speaker 1: is really striking in a way. It's on the neural level, 70 00:04:28,756 --> 00:04:32,316 Speaker 1: the future self looks like another person. Wow, it suggests 71 00:04:32,316 --> 00:04:34,116 Speaker 1: that we are thinking of those future selves as if 72 00:04:34,116 --> 00:04:37,276 Speaker 1: they are other people. Now, there's an important caveat here, 73 00:04:37,316 --> 00:04:41,036 Speaker 1: which is that that's on average. Some people had patterns 74 00:04:41,036 --> 00:04:43,236 Speaker 1: in the brain where the future self looked wildly like 75 00:04:43,276 --> 00:04:46,436 Speaker 1: another person, and some people the difference was much smaller. 76 00:04:47,196 --> 00:04:50,516 Speaker 1: Now a couple weeks later, we brought those same people 77 00:04:50,556 --> 00:04:53,356 Speaker 1: back to the lab and we gave them decisions that 78 00:04:53,356 --> 00:04:55,316 Speaker 1: they could make between smaller amounts of money that they 79 00:04:55,356 --> 00:04:58,076 Speaker 1: could have right now and larger amounts of money they 80 00:04:58,076 --> 00:05:00,516 Speaker 1: could have later. It's sort of a classic present future 81 00:05:00,556 --> 00:05:03,676 Speaker 1: trade off. It's a little like spending versus saving, and it's. 82 00:05:03,516 --> 00:05:06,036 Speaker 2: Really asking at its heart, how much do you care 83 00:05:06,076 --> 00:05:08,356 Speaker 2: about your future self being happy with this sum of 84 00:05:08,396 --> 00:05:10,156 Speaker 2: money versus your present day self? 85 00:05:10,316 --> 00:05:13,196 Speaker 1: Right exactly. So, on the one hand, what we found 86 00:05:13,276 --> 00:05:15,116 Speaker 1: is that the people for whom the future self looked 87 00:05:15,156 --> 00:05:17,676 Speaker 1: most like another person, they said, I'll take the money 88 00:05:17,756 --> 00:05:19,716 Speaker 1: right now and not save it for later. But then 89 00:05:19,796 --> 00:05:22,196 Speaker 1: the flip side, the people for whom the future self 90 00:05:22,236 --> 00:05:27,076 Speaker 1: looked most similar, most connected to the current self. Those 91 00:05:27,116 --> 00:05:29,876 Speaker 1: are the ones who said, I'll wait, I'll wait till 92 00:05:29,956 --> 00:05:32,956 Speaker 1: later and take more money for a future version of me. 93 00:05:33,556 --> 00:05:34,156 Speaker 3: Yeah. 94 00:05:34,596 --> 00:05:37,996 Speaker 2: Are there any psychological studies that look at the amount 95 00:05:37,996 --> 00:05:40,116 Speaker 2: of empathy that we have towards our future selves. 96 00:05:40,996 --> 00:05:42,716 Speaker 1: There is one study that comes to mind. So krim 97 00:05:42,756 --> 00:05:44,476 Speaker 1: ca some and his colleagues did this work where they 98 00:05:44,556 --> 00:05:47,076 Speaker 1: might say that people imagine you to win a lottery 99 00:05:47,156 --> 00:05:49,396 Speaker 1: right now, how happy would you be on it, you know, 100 00:05:49,396 --> 00:05:52,836 Speaker 1: on a one to ten scale, about an eight, I guess, 101 00:05:53,236 --> 00:05:55,996 Speaker 1: And then they ask people how happy would you be 102 00:05:56,036 --> 00:05:57,876 Speaker 1: if you want sort of an equivalent, you know, let's 103 00:05:57,876 --> 00:06:01,516 Speaker 1: adjusted for inflation, lottery in the future, in five years, 104 00:06:01,556 --> 00:06:04,876 Speaker 1: two years, whatever it might be. And the interesting thing 105 00:06:04,956 --> 00:06:07,316 Speaker 1: there is that people's responses are lower. So I say, oh, 106 00:06:07,316 --> 00:06:09,036 Speaker 1: I don't know, I'd be about a six or seven. 107 00:06:09,756 --> 00:06:12,036 Speaker 1: And it's funny because if it's the same amount of money, 108 00:06:12,076 --> 00:06:14,796 Speaker 1: you think I'd be the same amount of happy. But 109 00:06:14,916 --> 00:06:18,716 Speaker 1: the reality is, somehow the things that are happening now 110 00:06:18,876 --> 00:06:21,316 Speaker 1: feel stronger, and the things that are happening in the 111 00:06:21,316 --> 00:06:23,636 Speaker 1: future feel somehow more muted. 112 00:06:24,236 --> 00:06:26,676 Speaker 2: Another study that I love, which I think shows the 113 00:06:26,716 --> 00:06:29,316 Speaker 2: same result that emerges from the neuroscience study is shown 114 00:06:29,316 --> 00:06:32,356 Speaker 2: in this psychological study in terms of our frame of 115 00:06:32,436 --> 00:06:34,916 Speaker 2: reference when we're thinking about our present day self and 116 00:06:34,956 --> 00:06:38,596 Speaker 2: our future self. And gosh, I love this one. It 117 00:06:38,636 --> 00:06:41,356 Speaker 2: feels so viscerally true in my own experience. So do 118 00:06:41,396 --> 00:06:43,396 Speaker 2: you mind describing this particular study? 119 00:06:43,836 --> 00:06:46,756 Speaker 1: Yes? So, Emily Pronin and Lee Ross did this great work. 120 00:06:46,956 --> 00:06:49,196 Speaker 1: They ask people to describe a meal they're having right now, 121 00:06:49,796 --> 00:06:52,876 Speaker 1: and when people do that, they naturally use the first 122 00:06:52,876 --> 00:06:55,996 Speaker 1: person perspective. I am eating plasta, I am eating a 123 00:06:56,036 --> 00:06:58,156 Speaker 1: sandwich or whatever it is. And then they ask a 124 00:06:58,156 --> 00:07:01,116 Speaker 1: different group to imagine a meal in the very distant future. 125 00:07:01,996 --> 00:07:05,796 Speaker 1: And when a different group of people do that exercise, 126 00:07:06,796 --> 00:07:09,596 Speaker 1: some of them say, oh, I'll be eating pasta, I'll 127 00:07:09,596 --> 00:07:12,356 Speaker 1: beating a sandwich, but way more of them switch to 128 00:07:12,436 --> 00:07:16,436 Speaker 1: say he is eating a sandwich, He's eating pasta. They 129 00:07:16,476 --> 00:07:19,636 Speaker 1: flip to use the third person perspective when thinking about 130 00:07:19,676 --> 00:07:21,956 Speaker 1: their future self. And this is work that's been replicated 131 00:07:21,956 --> 00:07:24,676 Speaker 1: by Neil McCrae and others as well. And I find 132 00:07:24,716 --> 00:07:27,996 Speaker 1: it so interesting because it suggests that on this subtle 133 00:07:28,036 --> 00:07:31,436 Speaker 1: psychological level, we make this little flip in our mind 134 00:07:32,156 --> 00:07:35,196 Speaker 1: so that our future self now is seen as another. 135 00:07:35,556 --> 00:07:38,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, when I sit here and then I imagine myself 136 00:07:38,516 --> 00:07:41,116 Speaker 2: if I'm so lucky that I'm here many decades from now, 137 00:07:42,276 --> 00:07:47,556 Speaker 2: in say a convalescent home. Right, I'm looking at myself 138 00:07:48,956 --> 00:07:50,956 Speaker 2: sitting in the convalescent home. 139 00:07:51,236 --> 00:07:51,436 Speaker 1: Right. 140 00:07:51,516 --> 00:07:53,516 Speaker 2: I have the ability to imagine myself in the first person. 141 00:07:53,516 --> 00:07:56,796 Speaker 2: But it's not what comes instinctively, Whereas if I imagine 142 00:07:57,236 --> 00:08:00,236 Speaker 2: my life today or imagine my life tomorrow, I am 143 00:08:00,276 --> 00:08:03,636 Speaker 2: seeing it through the mind's eye. So why do you 144 00:08:03,676 --> 00:08:05,476 Speaker 2: think we're like this? So why do you think it 145 00:08:05,596 --> 00:08:08,636 Speaker 2: is that we feel less empathy towards our future selves 146 00:08:08,676 --> 00:08:10,436 Speaker 2: than we might otherwise want to. 147 00:08:11,276 --> 00:08:12,836 Speaker 1: I mean, I think to some extent you could go 148 00:08:12,956 --> 00:08:15,636 Speaker 1: back in history and come up with an answer. Right, 149 00:08:15,716 --> 00:08:18,756 Speaker 1: when life expectancy was much shorter, it really made sense 150 00:08:18,796 --> 00:08:22,076 Speaker 1: to focus on what was certain, which was the present. Right, 151 00:08:22,596 --> 00:08:24,996 Speaker 1: the distant future is wildly uncertain. Why should I do 152 00:08:25,076 --> 00:08:29,596 Speaker 1: anything for it? But now we're living much longer, especially 153 00:08:29,596 --> 00:08:35,236 Speaker 1: in developed countries, and not empathizing with the future self 154 00:08:35,996 --> 00:08:39,756 Speaker 1: can look as if we are almost overly focused on 155 00:08:40,236 --> 00:08:42,116 Speaker 1: the present self. It sort of brings up the concept 156 00:08:42,116 --> 00:08:45,276 Speaker 1: of what behavioral economists and psycholoists called present bias, which 157 00:08:45,316 --> 00:08:47,356 Speaker 1: is that we are to some extent bias towards the 158 00:08:47,396 --> 00:08:49,396 Speaker 1: things that are happening now, so much so that we 159 00:08:49,516 --> 00:08:53,876 Speaker 1: end up really undervaluing things that will happen to some 160 00:08:54,236 --> 00:08:58,076 Speaker 1: future version of ourselves. So if our future self is 161 00:08:58,716 --> 00:09:01,196 Speaker 1: the type of person who we know exists but we 162 00:09:01,236 --> 00:09:04,796 Speaker 1: don't really care about them, then we're probably not going 163 00:09:04,836 --> 00:09:07,476 Speaker 1: to be doing things for their benefit. 164 00:09:09,316 --> 00:09:11,636 Speaker 2: Are there any other studies showing that the way we 165 00:09:11,796 --> 00:09:15,436 Speaker 2: view our future self can change the kinds of decisions 166 00:09:15,436 --> 00:09:17,356 Speaker 2: we make on behalf of that future self. 167 00:09:17,996 --> 00:09:21,676 Speaker 1: Absolutely so. In my own work, we've found that people 168 00:09:21,676 --> 00:09:25,196 Speaker 1: who are connected to their future selves are more likely 169 00:09:25,276 --> 00:09:30,196 Speaker 1: to have saved money over time, they experience greater financial wellbeing, 170 00:09:31,196 --> 00:09:34,756 Speaker 1: they perform in more patient ways and laboratory tasks, you know. 171 00:09:34,836 --> 00:09:38,396 Speaker 1: Other research has even found that the people who experience 172 00:09:38,436 --> 00:09:42,076 Speaker 1: a greater sense of similarity and connection with their future 173 00:09:42,116 --> 00:09:45,316 Speaker 1: selves also feel more of a sense of meaning in 174 00:09:45,356 --> 00:09:49,276 Speaker 1: their lives. They're more likely to make ethical decisions when 175 00:09:49,276 --> 00:09:51,596 Speaker 1: given the option to act unethically, which is another one 176 00:09:51,636 --> 00:09:53,916 Speaker 1: of these sort of present future trade offs. 177 00:09:54,436 --> 00:09:57,156 Speaker 2: Wait, tell me more about that one. How that's fascinating. 178 00:09:57,476 --> 00:09:59,356 Speaker 1: Well, if you think about it, If I'm given the 179 00:09:59,396 --> 00:10:02,196 Speaker 1: option to cut a corner right now and get a 180 00:10:02,236 --> 00:10:04,556 Speaker 1: little benefit right now, the trade off there is that 181 00:10:04,596 --> 00:10:06,036 Speaker 1: I get something right now, but I also have the 182 00:10:06,076 --> 00:10:07,476 Speaker 1: possibility of getting punished later. 183 00:10:07,556 --> 00:10:10,116 Speaker 3: Yeah, we're guilt feeling of guilt later. 184 00:10:10,076 --> 00:10:13,796 Speaker 1: Or guilt later, right, And I have researched with collaborators 185 00:10:13,836 --> 00:10:17,716 Speaker 1: where we found that the people who experience a lower 186 00:10:17,716 --> 00:10:20,996 Speaker 1: degree of connection with their future selves, they're more likely 187 00:10:21,076 --> 00:10:26,876 Speaker 1: to opt for unethical negotiation strategies. Fascinating when given the opportunity, 188 00:10:26,916 --> 00:10:29,796 Speaker 1: and that we even see this. It's a small effect 189 00:10:29,836 --> 00:10:31,636 Speaker 1: that we see in laboratory settings where they get the 190 00:10:31,636 --> 00:10:33,796 Speaker 1: opportunity to sort of cheat, if you will. 191 00:10:34,676 --> 00:10:37,556 Speaker 2: Given that we might change in unexpected ways, given that 192 00:10:37,596 --> 00:10:39,836 Speaker 2: we will change, I should just say it's inevitability we 193 00:10:39,876 --> 00:10:43,116 Speaker 2: will change in unexpected ways in the future. It can 194 00:10:43,116 --> 00:10:45,716 Speaker 2: become a little bit tricky to figure out who we're 195 00:10:45,756 --> 00:10:49,916 Speaker 2: actually making decisions on behalf of right, So when I 196 00:10:49,916 --> 00:10:52,076 Speaker 2: make a decision today on behalf of my future self, 197 00:10:52,156 --> 00:10:55,476 Speaker 2: I am incorporating my current preferences, my current values, my 198 00:10:55,556 --> 00:10:58,996 Speaker 2: current beliefs into that decision. Making calculus and those things 199 00:10:59,076 --> 00:11:03,156 Speaker 2: might radically change. And so let's say, like how you've 200 00:11:03,156 --> 00:11:05,476 Speaker 2: convinced me I need to bridge any empathy gaps that 201 00:11:05,516 --> 00:11:07,276 Speaker 2: exist between my present self and my future self. I 202 00:11:07,316 --> 00:11:09,836 Speaker 2: need to care a lot more about future Maya. But 203 00:11:10,716 --> 00:11:12,356 Speaker 2: I don't know who I'm solving for. 204 00:11:13,716 --> 00:11:16,476 Speaker 1: Of course, if we're planning, we have to base those 205 00:11:16,476 --> 00:11:19,356 Speaker 1: plans off of something, and the most relevant something is 206 00:11:19,356 --> 00:11:21,436 Speaker 1: how we feel right now and who we are right now. 207 00:11:22,036 --> 00:11:24,756 Speaker 1: And as you pointed it out really well, that change 208 00:11:24,796 --> 00:11:28,996 Speaker 1: changes us and we can't fully anticipate those changes. At 209 00:11:28,996 --> 00:11:31,476 Speaker 1: the same time, we can look to the core of 210 00:11:31,556 --> 00:11:35,236 Speaker 1: us and the things that matter and try to make 211 00:11:35,316 --> 00:11:39,156 Speaker 1: plans based on the values that we hold and what's 212 00:11:39,276 --> 00:11:42,236 Speaker 1: important right now. And I want to layer on top 213 00:11:42,276 --> 00:11:46,036 Speaker 1: of that the need to revisit our plans and be 214 00:11:47,076 --> 00:11:50,756 Speaker 1: compassionate with the idea that some of those values and 215 00:11:50,796 --> 00:11:53,796 Speaker 1: some of our preferences may change over time. 216 00:11:54,396 --> 00:11:56,916 Speaker 2: Are there predictable ways in which we might change that 217 00:11:56,956 --> 00:11:58,836 Speaker 2: we can account for now in terms of the decisions 218 00:11:58,876 --> 00:12:01,916 Speaker 2: we make, or are there at least stable aspects of 219 00:12:01,996 --> 00:12:04,956 Speaker 2: who we end up being that we can feel fairly 220 00:12:04,996 --> 00:12:05,476 Speaker 2: good about. 221 00:12:05,796 --> 00:12:08,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, your question also gets a sort of this nuanced 222 00:12:08,236 --> 00:12:11,196 Speaker 1: psychology of how much we actually change over time and 223 00:12:11,236 --> 00:12:13,956 Speaker 1: in some ways. You know, what personality psychologists suggests is 224 00:12:13,956 --> 00:12:17,116 Speaker 1: that it depends on where you look. In some ways 225 00:12:17,996 --> 00:12:20,516 Speaker 1: we change and other ways we've remain the same. And 226 00:12:20,556 --> 00:12:26,436 Speaker 1: so you know, there's the big five personality traits openness, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, neuroticism. 227 00:12:26,956 --> 00:12:28,996 Speaker 1: Over a ten year period, we can expect one of 228 00:12:29,036 --> 00:12:31,356 Speaker 1: those to change. There's a good chance that one of 229 00:12:31,436 --> 00:12:34,076 Speaker 1: those traits will change, which is wild in a way. Right, 230 00:12:34,156 --> 00:12:36,076 Speaker 1: there's the five core traits. One of them changes. 231 00:12:36,196 --> 00:12:37,756 Speaker 3: Can I choose neuroticism? 232 00:12:37,756 --> 00:12:38,076 Speaker 1: Please? 233 00:12:38,556 --> 00:12:40,916 Speaker 3: Can I talk to the psychology nods. I'd like to 234 00:12:40,996 --> 00:12:41,916 Speaker 3: change that one everyone. 235 00:12:42,076 --> 00:12:44,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, my magic eight ball says that one is fixed. 236 00:12:45,116 --> 00:12:45,956 Speaker 3: Oh damn it. 237 00:12:46,956 --> 00:12:49,116 Speaker 1: You know, you know, we can expect right to get 238 00:12:49,196 --> 00:12:52,956 Speaker 1: a more conscientious over time, and yet some of the 239 00:12:52,996 --> 00:12:56,196 Speaker 1: other traits may remain quite stable. And obviously there's lots 240 00:12:56,196 --> 00:12:59,916 Speaker 1: of videosyncrasies here, and there's individual differences. We can't predict 241 00:13:00,516 --> 00:13:03,996 Speaker 1: what environmental factors and what external factors will will change 242 00:13:03,996 --> 00:13:04,596 Speaker 1: those things. 243 00:13:04,876 --> 00:13:07,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think the broader message is sure there 244 00:13:07,636 --> 00:13:10,756 Speaker 2: might be some misforecast about how we think will end up. 245 00:13:10,796 --> 00:13:13,756 Speaker 2: But it's better to care period about your future self, 246 00:13:13,756 --> 00:13:15,836 Speaker 2: so at least that can be integrated into your present 247 00:13:15,876 --> 00:13:16,596 Speaker 2: day decisions. 248 00:13:17,276 --> 00:13:19,356 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right. And I think at the 249 00:13:19,396 --> 00:13:22,076 Speaker 1: same time, if we're making all of our decisions for 250 00:13:22,116 --> 00:13:24,276 Speaker 1: that future self, that's not going to lead to a 251 00:13:24,396 --> 00:13:27,156 Speaker 1: very satisfying life right now. And you know that future 252 00:13:27,156 --> 00:13:30,076 Speaker 1: self is constantly bugging me about decisions, like I'm going 253 00:13:30,116 --> 00:13:33,636 Speaker 1: to get annoyed by him and probably start start ignoring him, 254 00:13:33,676 --> 00:13:35,716 Speaker 1: right So, I mean, to some extent, this is really 255 00:13:35,756 --> 00:13:39,236 Speaker 1: about some sense of balance, if you will, and flexibility 256 00:13:39,276 --> 00:13:40,116 Speaker 1: between now and later. 257 00:13:40,916 --> 00:13:43,796 Speaker 2: After the break, we talk about how to strike that balance, 258 00:13:44,316 --> 00:13:46,916 Speaker 2: plus a few ways you can build a better relationship 259 00:13:46,956 --> 00:13:52,516 Speaker 2: with your future self. We'll be back in a moment 260 00:13:52,636 --> 00:14:08,076 Speaker 2: with a slight change of plans. I feel like I 261 00:14:08,556 --> 00:14:11,756 Speaker 2: Maya only learned maybe five years ago that I even 262 00:14:11,756 --> 00:14:14,556 Speaker 2: had a present day self, because I'm so. 263 00:14:14,716 --> 00:14:15,836 Speaker 3: Oriented in the future. 264 00:14:16,196 --> 00:14:19,316 Speaker 2: I have been living future self Maya for so long, 265 00:14:19,716 --> 00:14:22,316 Speaker 2: and then recently it was like, oh my gosh, there's 266 00:14:22,356 --> 00:14:25,116 Speaker 2: actually a present day version of the How interesting maybe 267 00:14:25,156 --> 00:14:26,236 Speaker 2: I should invest in now. 268 00:14:26,556 --> 00:14:30,796 Speaker 1: Well, this is so interesting because researchers talk about the 269 00:14:30,836 --> 00:14:34,716 Speaker 1: experience you're describing, as they refer to it as hyperopia. 270 00:14:35,116 --> 00:14:37,516 Speaker 1: So my apia is when I focus so much on 271 00:14:37,516 --> 00:14:39,956 Speaker 1: the present that I missed the future. Hyperopia is where 272 00:14:39,996 --> 00:14:41,756 Speaker 1: I focus so much on the future that I miss 273 00:14:41,916 --> 00:14:42,356 Speaker 1: the present. 274 00:14:42,556 --> 00:14:45,476 Speaker 2: Yes, I feel so seen right now by this random 275 00:14:45,516 --> 00:14:46,276 Speaker 2: technical term. 276 00:14:50,196 --> 00:14:53,076 Speaker 1: Well, what I find so interesting about this is that 277 00:14:53,796 --> 00:14:57,396 Speaker 1: even though hyper apia is being so focused on the future, ironically, 278 00:14:57,396 --> 00:14:59,316 Speaker 1: one of the outcomes of that is that we can 279 00:14:59,396 --> 00:15:02,916 Speaker 1: end up almost doing a disservice to our future selves. 280 00:15:03,316 --> 00:15:06,676 Speaker 1: The classic example of this is I have a gift 281 00:15:06,676 --> 00:15:08,636 Speaker 1: certificate to a restaurant and I hold on to it, 282 00:15:08,676 --> 00:15:11,356 Speaker 1: waiting for the perfect time to go to that restaurant. 283 00:15:11,556 --> 00:15:13,236 Speaker 1: And we could go this weekend, but you know what, 284 00:15:13,476 --> 00:15:15,516 Speaker 1: not this weekend. I want to wait until it's just right. 285 00:15:15,556 --> 00:15:18,356 Speaker 1: And then time goes by and the restaurant closes. And 286 00:15:18,396 --> 00:15:21,716 Speaker 1: now I was thinking about doing something for my future 287 00:15:21,716 --> 00:15:23,556 Speaker 1: self to make it a really great experience, And what 288 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:25,756 Speaker 1: I've done is robbed him of that experience. I've also 289 00:15:25,836 --> 00:15:28,676 Speaker 1: robbed my present self of doing it now. And there's 290 00:15:28,716 --> 00:15:30,636 Speaker 1: something humorous about that one. But then you think about 291 00:15:30,636 --> 00:15:33,996 Speaker 1: these other cases. You know, maybe I'm working too much, 292 00:15:34,036 --> 00:15:38,556 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm overly focused on certain goals I have, and 293 00:15:38,556 --> 00:15:40,796 Speaker 1: in being so overly focused on them, I miss the 294 00:15:40,796 --> 00:15:43,036 Speaker 1: stuff that's right in front of me. Of course, that 295 00:15:43,076 --> 00:15:45,196 Speaker 1: resonates with me too, and I think it resonates with 296 00:15:45,236 --> 00:15:48,436 Speaker 1: a lot of people. One of the ways that I 297 00:15:48,476 --> 00:15:51,036 Speaker 1: like to think about dealing with this is how do 298 00:15:51,116 --> 00:15:53,436 Speaker 1: I create? And the term I really like here is 299 00:15:53,476 --> 00:15:58,396 Speaker 1: harmony between present and future selves, so that in certain cases, 300 00:15:58,436 --> 00:16:01,236 Speaker 1: the present self can live now to give the future 301 00:16:01,276 --> 00:16:04,676 Speaker 1: self memories to look back on. And another case is 302 00:16:05,276 --> 00:16:07,316 Speaker 1: maybe the present self pulls back a little bit so 303 00:16:07,356 --> 00:16:10,036 Speaker 1: that the future self has more resource is to use 304 00:16:10,236 --> 00:16:13,556 Speaker 1: to create other memories. But if I went one direction 305 00:16:13,676 --> 00:16:17,196 Speaker 1: or the other, it would be almost lumpy from a 306 00:16:17,196 --> 00:16:20,596 Speaker 1: well being standpoint. And what my preference, at least in 307 00:16:20,596 --> 00:16:22,276 Speaker 1: my own life would be is to smooth that out 308 00:16:22,556 --> 00:16:25,836 Speaker 1: so that all those selves have that well being and utility. 309 00:16:26,196 --> 00:16:28,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, by the way, what you described so tracks with 310 00:16:28,836 --> 00:16:31,276 Speaker 2: my experience as a kid. I went home to visit 311 00:16:31,316 --> 00:16:33,156 Speaker 2: my parents in Connecticut. I was up in the attic 312 00:16:33,236 --> 00:16:35,436 Speaker 2: just looking through old boxes of you know, I'm one 313 00:16:35,436 --> 00:16:37,036 Speaker 2: of four kids, so there's a lot of boxes in 314 00:16:37,036 --> 00:16:39,596 Speaker 2: the attic of like our old things, and I find 315 00:16:40,116 --> 00:16:45,556 Speaker 2: this treasure trove of my absolute favorite stationary okay from 316 00:16:45,596 --> 00:16:48,996 Speaker 2: the time, and I was just unwilling to use it. Ever, 317 00:16:49,076 --> 00:16:51,676 Speaker 2: it's like no, apparently I was saving it for the 318 00:16:51,676 --> 00:16:55,796 Speaker 2: perfect occasion with a perfect friend, and there's just piles 319 00:16:55,796 --> 00:16:57,756 Speaker 2: of it. Now this is all useless. It's like Coropi 320 00:16:57,916 --> 00:17:01,036 Speaker 2: and Hello Kitty and all this stuff from this is 321 00:17:01,076 --> 00:17:05,916 Speaker 2: really dating me, all those characters. But it's so useless now. 322 00:17:05,956 --> 00:17:08,956 Speaker 2: But I remember at the moment thinking like, this is gold. 323 00:17:09,316 --> 00:17:11,556 Speaker 2: You need to hold on to it. Maya right, Okay, 324 00:17:11,636 --> 00:17:12,036 Speaker 2: you gotta. 325 00:17:12,556 --> 00:17:14,636 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm here to say now is the time I think, 326 00:17:14,716 --> 00:17:18,076 Speaker 1: you know, all future noteshould be on Hello Kitty. 327 00:17:18,156 --> 00:17:20,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, you just like can't use it recreationally by but 328 00:17:20,796 --> 00:17:23,676 Speaker 2: any what I'm gleaning from this conversation is that you 329 00:17:23,756 --> 00:17:26,156 Speaker 2: will actually become my pen pal after this and I 330 00:17:26,236 --> 00:17:28,876 Speaker 2: will be writing letters to you and all that stationary. 331 00:17:28,916 --> 00:17:31,196 Speaker 2: So it eventually went to good use, right because right 332 00:17:31,236 --> 00:17:32,316 Speaker 2: now it's collecting dust. 333 00:17:32,756 --> 00:17:34,236 Speaker 3: It's in an addict in Connecticut. 334 00:17:34,316 --> 00:17:36,956 Speaker 2: Yes, okay, So moving on to those of us who 335 00:17:36,956 --> 00:17:40,556 Speaker 2: struggle to have sufficient empathy for our future selves, it 336 00:17:40,676 --> 00:17:44,716 Speaker 2: strikes me that part of the problem might be that 337 00:17:44,756 --> 00:17:48,236 Speaker 2: we don't empathize enough with our present day selves, and 338 00:17:48,316 --> 00:17:50,636 Speaker 2: so maybe that that's a place where we might start. 339 00:17:50,676 --> 00:17:52,756 Speaker 2: You know, I was interviewing Kristin Neff on the science 340 00:17:52,756 --> 00:17:55,356 Speaker 2: of self compassion for a slight change of plans, and 341 00:17:55,436 --> 00:17:57,756 Speaker 2: so I'm just curious to know how you think about 342 00:17:57,796 --> 00:18:01,556 Speaker 2: the relationship between present day empathy and future empathy. It's like, well, 343 00:18:01,556 --> 00:18:03,876 Speaker 2: I don't I'm not very kind to myself right now, 344 00:18:04,236 --> 00:18:06,836 Speaker 2: and maybe I'm treating myself like I would a stranger 345 00:18:06,876 --> 00:18:09,596 Speaker 2: that I was indifferent towards. It doesn't really well for 346 00:18:09,716 --> 00:18:12,036 Speaker 2: me to really care about seventy year old Maya. 347 00:18:12,276 --> 00:18:14,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I love that idea, and I think it 348 00:18:15,156 --> 00:18:17,996 Speaker 1: makes perfect sense. It's slightly cheesy metaphor, but you know, 349 00:18:18,036 --> 00:18:19,556 Speaker 1: when you're on an airplane and they say, you know, 350 00:18:19,596 --> 00:18:21,836 Speaker 1: if oxygen mas terdrop, you have to put yours on 351 00:18:21,876 --> 00:18:23,756 Speaker 1: first before you can help someone else. And the whole idea, 352 00:18:23,796 --> 00:18:26,516 Speaker 1: of course, is that if you're rushing to help someone 353 00:18:26,596 --> 00:18:28,636 Speaker 1: else and you haven't take care of yourself first, you'll 354 00:18:28,636 --> 00:18:30,996 Speaker 1: no longer be able to help them. And I think 355 00:18:31,316 --> 00:18:33,636 Speaker 1: absolutely the same could be said for our present and 356 00:18:33,676 --> 00:18:36,876 Speaker 1: future selves. That before we can start taking care of 357 00:18:36,916 --> 00:18:40,156 Speaker 1: that future self and empathizing with them. We have to 358 00:18:40,316 --> 00:18:42,716 Speaker 1: some extent take care of and empathize with the person 359 00:18:42,756 --> 00:18:45,276 Speaker 1: we are right now. I don't know of any empirical 360 00:18:45,276 --> 00:18:47,596 Speaker 1: research that's been done in this space, but man, that's 361 00:18:47,596 --> 00:18:48,756 Speaker 1: a really interesting question. 362 00:18:49,356 --> 00:18:52,556 Speaker 2: So given that, what types of things can we do 363 00:18:52,716 --> 00:18:55,956 Speaker 2: to cultivate a closer relationship with our future selves? 364 00:18:56,556 --> 00:18:58,596 Speaker 1: So one way to think about this is to start 365 00:18:58,596 --> 00:19:01,516 Speaker 1: from the perspective that future self is, in many ways, 366 00:19:01,516 --> 00:19:04,716 Speaker 1: as we've said, like another person. So if you start 367 00:19:04,756 --> 00:19:06,716 Speaker 1: from that perspective, now I can say, all right, well, 368 00:19:07,276 --> 00:19:11,236 Speaker 1: how can we get our cells to foster a greater 369 00:19:11,316 --> 00:19:14,396 Speaker 1: connection to other people. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. 370 00:19:14,516 --> 00:19:17,596 Speaker 1: Charities do this all the time. Marketers do this really well. 371 00:19:17,596 --> 00:19:20,996 Speaker 1: And what they do is they make the recipients of 372 00:19:21,196 --> 00:19:26,156 Speaker 1: charity donations more salient and more vivid and more emotional. 373 00:19:26,196 --> 00:19:29,356 Speaker 1: So let's apply those same lines of thinking to our 374 00:19:29,396 --> 00:19:33,756 Speaker 1: future selves. Let's make them more vivid and more emotional. Right, 375 00:19:33,796 --> 00:19:35,836 Speaker 1: Because if I can feel the emotions, I can feel 376 00:19:35,876 --> 00:19:38,556 Speaker 1: the empathy that's going to drive me to do the actions, 377 00:19:38,636 --> 00:19:40,956 Speaker 1: do the things that make life better. Right. So, you know, 378 00:19:41,076 --> 00:19:43,076 Speaker 1: the high tech version of this. Something I've been playing 379 00:19:43,076 --> 00:19:45,596 Speaker 1: with over the years is to show people what they'll 380 00:19:45,596 --> 00:19:50,116 Speaker 1: look like. Right. We can use age progression technology, and 381 00:19:50,196 --> 00:19:52,356 Speaker 1: my collaborators and I have done this where we actually 382 00:19:52,436 --> 00:19:55,076 Speaker 1: show people what they'll look like in the future. And 383 00:19:55,156 --> 00:19:57,756 Speaker 1: we've played around with this in different context. Most recently, 384 00:19:57,756 --> 00:20:01,396 Speaker 1: we ran a large scale study in Mexico and found 385 00:20:01,476 --> 00:20:04,556 Speaker 1: that people who were exposed to their age progress images 386 00:20:04,596 --> 00:20:07,156 Speaker 1: of their future selves were more likely to make a 387 00:20:07,196 --> 00:20:12,716 Speaker 1: contribution to retirement account. There are lower tech ways to 388 00:20:12,756 --> 00:20:14,636 Speaker 1: do this too, so we don't all have to sit 389 00:20:14,676 --> 00:20:17,356 Speaker 1: around printing out images of our future selves. 390 00:20:17,396 --> 00:20:19,796 Speaker 2: But some of us just all of a sudden have 391 00:20:19,836 --> 00:20:22,676 Speaker 2: a bunch of gray hair on their heads without intending to. 392 00:20:23,396 --> 00:20:25,956 Speaker 1: Suddenly, I have looked in the mirror, and it's it's strange, 393 00:20:26,036 --> 00:20:27,316 Speaker 1: how that is my future self. 394 00:20:27,476 --> 00:20:29,036 Speaker 3: No technology needed in this case. 395 00:20:29,076 --> 00:20:33,436 Speaker 1: Out very very weird how that happens. Yeah, you know so. 396 00:20:33,556 --> 00:20:36,716 Speaker 1: Some lower tech versions of this are a conversational exercise 397 00:20:37,396 --> 00:20:40,596 Speaker 1: writing letter to your future self and then writing a 398 00:20:40,676 --> 00:20:43,996 Speaker 1: letter from your future self. And the reason I say 399 00:20:44,036 --> 00:20:45,636 Speaker 1: that this is a low tech version is because of 400 00:20:45,636 --> 00:20:47,436 Speaker 1: course we're not doing the technology, but it's still doing 401 00:20:47,476 --> 00:20:51,716 Speaker 1: the same thing. It is making that future self more vivid. 402 00:20:52,596 --> 00:20:55,436 Speaker 2: One thought experiment that strikes me as potentially helpful for 403 00:20:55,796 --> 00:20:58,956 Speaker 2: building a stronger connection with your future self is actually 404 00:20:58,996 --> 00:21:02,716 Speaker 2: to look backwards and think about your past and recognize 405 00:21:02,756 --> 00:21:05,676 Speaker 2: that your present day self, which you really care a 406 00:21:05,676 --> 00:21:10,316 Speaker 2: lot about, is the future version of ten years younger Maya. Yeah, 407 00:21:10,316 --> 00:21:13,996 Speaker 2: so like I am actually twenty something Maya's future self 408 00:21:14,516 --> 00:21:16,956 Speaker 2: really care about myself today? I would really have wanted 409 00:21:17,036 --> 00:21:19,716 Speaker 2: twenty something Maya to care about this version of me. 410 00:21:20,236 --> 00:21:22,556 Speaker 2: So is that also an exercise that we can use. 411 00:21:23,036 --> 00:21:24,916 Speaker 1: I think it's a lovely exercise, And so it's not 412 00:21:24,996 --> 00:21:26,916 Speaker 1: something that we've tested. But I love the idea of 413 00:21:26,956 --> 00:21:30,996 Speaker 1: scaffolding things by saying, when I was a present self. 414 00:21:31,036 --> 00:21:33,996 Speaker 3: Ten years ago, yeah, as totally that. 415 00:21:33,876 --> 00:21:37,276 Speaker 1: Past version of me made decisions that now affect the 416 00:21:37,316 --> 00:21:39,836 Speaker 1: person I am right now. You know, when you do that, 417 00:21:39,876 --> 00:21:43,036 Speaker 1: I think it can really highlight these threads of connection 418 00:21:43,516 --> 00:21:46,396 Speaker 1: over time, and you know, really shine a light on 419 00:21:46,476 --> 00:21:49,196 Speaker 1: the idea that the things I did in the past 420 00:21:49,636 --> 00:21:51,956 Speaker 1: have impacted the person I am now, and the things 421 00:21:51,956 --> 00:21:55,236 Speaker 1: I'm doing right now will impact the person I will be, 422 00:21:55,516 --> 00:21:59,076 Speaker 1: and more than that, will also impact the things that 423 00:21:59,076 --> 00:22:03,756 Speaker 1: that person that future me looks back on, either happily 424 00:22:03,876 --> 00:22:07,316 Speaker 1: or regretfully. So, you know, one of the techniques that 425 00:22:07,356 --> 00:22:10,396 Speaker 1: I love is the idea of incre breating commitment devices. 426 00:22:10,556 --> 00:22:13,076 Speaker 1: There's been lots of research on the idea that we 427 00:22:13,196 --> 00:22:16,876 Speaker 1: can recognize that there's a version of me right now, 428 00:22:16,916 --> 00:22:19,356 Speaker 1: and then there's this version of my future self who 429 00:22:19,356 --> 00:22:21,516 Speaker 1: I want to say, you know, has done noble things 430 00:22:21,556 --> 00:22:24,476 Speaker 1: and has eaten healthy and exercise and put on my sunscreen. 431 00:22:26,036 --> 00:22:29,476 Speaker 1: And then there's the sort of you know, version of 432 00:22:29,476 --> 00:22:32,516 Speaker 1: me in the middle who may screw those things up, right, 433 00:22:32,596 --> 00:22:34,516 Speaker 1: the guy who doesn't wake up in the morning to exercise, 434 00:22:34,596 --> 00:22:36,916 Speaker 1: the guy who snacks so much overnight, and then the 435 00:22:36,956 --> 00:22:38,996 Speaker 1: guy who says, you know, I think I'm good on 436 00:22:38,996 --> 00:22:42,756 Speaker 1: the sunscreen. I'd like to get tanner. And so commitment 437 00:22:42,756 --> 00:22:45,356 Speaker 1: devices are an amazing strategy because what they do is 438 00:22:45,356 --> 00:22:50,596 Speaker 1: they put guardrails on our ability to make mistakes in 439 00:22:50,636 --> 00:22:52,676 Speaker 1: the future. And so the idea is that I sort 440 00:22:52,716 --> 00:22:55,996 Speaker 1: of commit to behaving a certain way so that my 441 00:22:56,116 --> 00:22:58,916 Speaker 1: present self wishes can become the things that you know, 442 00:22:58,956 --> 00:23:02,476 Speaker 1: the eventual future version of me actually actually follows through 443 00:23:02,476 --> 00:23:03,076 Speaker 1: on and does. 444 00:23:03,916 --> 00:23:06,356 Speaker 2: Is there an example of a commitment device that you've 445 00:23:06,356 --> 00:23:07,916 Speaker 2: implemented on behalf of future. 446 00:23:07,956 --> 00:23:11,796 Speaker 1: How Okay? So I have like you would almost call 447 00:23:11,836 --> 00:23:14,796 Speaker 1: it a light commitment device. It's a box I have 448 00:23:14,836 --> 00:23:16,996 Speaker 1: at home. It's called a case safe, and it's just 449 00:23:17,076 --> 00:23:18,956 Speaker 1: a little safe with an electronic timer on it. 450 00:23:19,036 --> 00:23:19,396 Speaker 3: Okay. 451 00:23:19,676 --> 00:23:22,916 Speaker 1: And so in an ideal world, around dinner time, I 452 00:23:22,956 --> 00:23:24,356 Speaker 1: put my phone in there and I lock it away 453 00:23:24,396 --> 00:23:25,076 Speaker 1: for two hours. 454 00:23:25,396 --> 00:23:26,036 Speaker 3: Oh wow. 455 00:23:26,636 --> 00:23:30,476 Speaker 1: And the commitment there is that I don't have access 456 00:23:30,556 --> 00:23:33,276 Speaker 1: to all the fun things that my phone has on it, 457 00:23:33,316 --> 00:23:35,236 Speaker 1: and the outcome is that I can be much more 458 00:23:35,276 --> 00:23:38,516 Speaker 1: present with my family, you know, around dinner time, bedtime, 459 00:23:38,556 --> 00:23:41,476 Speaker 1: et cetera. There's one catch, though, which is that I 460 00:23:41,476 --> 00:23:43,156 Speaker 1: have to do it. I have to put it in 461 00:23:43,156 --> 00:23:45,996 Speaker 1: there to begin with, right, And so the case safe 462 00:23:46,036 --> 00:23:50,036 Speaker 1: lives in a cabinet. If it was on the counter, 463 00:23:50,356 --> 00:23:51,636 Speaker 1: I think I would do it a lot more. But 464 00:23:51,676 --> 00:23:53,956 Speaker 1: my wife says that it doesn't look great on the counter, 465 00:23:54,116 --> 00:23:55,836 Speaker 1: So so I haven't done that. 466 00:23:55,876 --> 00:23:58,276 Speaker 2: But you know what does look great? Lots of happy 467 00:23:58,316 --> 00:23:59,996 Speaker 2: memories that you kids can look back on. 468 00:24:00,436 --> 00:24:01,356 Speaker 1: Yes, there we go. 469 00:24:01,436 --> 00:24:03,676 Speaker 3: I shall tell you that that's the best form of aesthetic. 470 00:24:04,556 --> 00:24:07,076 Speaker 1: That's what I need to say. And when I do it, 471 00:24:07,196 --> 00:24:10,356 Speaker 1: by the way, it changes the experience of dinner time. Yeah, 472 00:24:10,436 --> 00:24:13,356 Speaker 1: because there's not even a temptations, Like the actual only 473 00:24:13,396 --> 00:24:14,836 Speaker 1: way I can get my phone is if I take 474 00:24:14,836 --> 00:24:15,876 Speaker 1: a hammer to the safe. 475 00:24:15,956 --> 00:24:17,996 Speaker 2: Oh that's right, because it's got this electronic thing where 476 00:24:17,996 --> 00:24:20,356 Speaker 2: you can really only get access to it two hours later. 477 00:24:20,436 --> 00:24:22,476 Speaker 3: So once it's in, yeah, it's done. 478 00:24:22,596 --> 00:24:24,316 Speaker 1: Okay, you can set it anywhere from one minute to 479 00:24:24,396 --> 00:24:27,516 Speaker 1: ten days. But it benefits me now and it benefits 480 00:24:27,556 --> 00:24:27,916 Speaker 1: me later. 481 00:24:28,956 --> 00:24:30,596 Speaker 2: How do you think that when we have a more 482 00:24:30,636 --> 00:24:33,956 Speaker 2: empathetic view of our future selves, it could have a 483 00:24:33,996 --> 00:24:37,276 Speaker 2: positive spillover effect on our empathy towards others. And you 484 00:24:37,316 --> 00:24:39,356 Speaker 2: know the reason I'm interested in this is the other 485 00:24:39,436 --> 00:24:41,796 Speaker 2: day I was in the doctor's office and when the 486 00:24:41,796 --> 00:24:44,756 Speaker 2: elevator door opened, I saw this young woman just barrel 487 00:24:44,876 --> 00:24:48,796 Speaker 2: past this older woman that was using a walker, and 488 00:24:49,076 --> 00:24:51,036 Speaker 2: I just wanted to be like, uh. 489 00:24:50,956 --> 00:24:52,556 Speaker 3: Dude, that's going to be you. 490 00:24:53,476 --> 00:24:55,996 Speaker 2: Like, if you're lucky and you make it in this life, 491 00:24:55,996 --> 00:24:58,756 Speaker 2: that will be you, I promise. And so that failure 492 00:24:58,796 --> 00:25:01,636 Speaker 2: of empathy was just so devastating for me to witness. 493 00:25:01,836 --> 00:25:04,236 Speaker 2: I mean, even for non selfish reasons, we should be 494 00:25:04,316 --> 00:25:07,396 Speaker 2: kind to people and consider it. But even for selfish reasons, 495 00:25:07,396 --> 00:25:09,956 Speaker 2: we should recognize that it and inevitably that will be 496 00:25:09,996 --> 00:25:10,516 Speaker 2: our future. 497 00:25:10,756 --> 00:25:12,596 Speaker 1: I've thought about this a lot, because, you know, when 498 00:25:12,636 --> 00:25:15,596 Speaker 1: you think about the way that we empathize with other people, 499 00:25:15,836 --> 00:25:17,836 Speaker 1: by definition, we are not a part of those groups. 500 00:25:18,076 --> 00:25:19,916 Speaker 1: But the one interesting thing here is that I will 501 00:25:19,916 --> 00:25:22,236 Speaker 1: one day become my future self. I will one day 502 00:25:22,276 --> 00:25:25,596 Speaker 1: become an older person, and so I've always wondered, if 503 00:25:25,596 --> 00:25:28,996 Speaker 1: I can increase empathy for my future self, may I 504 00:25:29,076 --> 00:25:31,916 Speaker 1: also increase empathy for older people and vice versa. If 505 00:25:31,956 --> 00:25:35,876 Speaker 1: I can reduce some agism and increase empathy for older people, 506 00:25:35,956 --> 00:25:39,316 Speaker 1: might that spillover to my own self? And it's just 507 00:25:39,356 --> 00:25:43,196 Speaker 1: a wonderful open question right now that we should dig into. 508 00:25:43,956 --> 00:25:47,516 Speaker 2: One challenge we face, especially younger generations, is just feeling 509 00:25:47,956 --> 00:25:50,396 Speaker 2: so much fear about the future, right, feeling so much 510 00:25:50,476 --> 00:25:55,316 Speaker 2: negativity that there's an anxiety and even thinking about future you, right, 511 00:25:55,516 --> 00:25:57,876 Speaker 2: of course, And so how do we grapple with that. 512 00:25:58,356 --> 00:26:00,996 Speaker 1: I've heard younger people say, like, why should I even care? 513 00:26:01,356 --> 00:26:03,996 Speaker 1: Right when jobs are being taken over by AI and 514 00:26:04,076 --> 00:26:08,036 Speaker 1: climate change and inflation, and I'm making myself anxious right 515 00:26:08,076 --> 00:26:10,556 Speaker 1: now listening all these things out, One exercise I like 516 00:26:10,636 --> 00:26:13,716 Speaker 1: to consider is what sort of decisions from the past 517 00:26:14,276 --> 00:26:17,476 Speaker 1: seemed like small decisions at the time, seemed like things 518 00:26:17,476 --> 00:26:20,716 Speaker 1: we might want to ignore, but then became something much 519 00:26:20,716 --> 00:26:23,276 Speaker 1: bigger that we're dealing with right now. And then let 520 00:26:23,316 --> 00:26:25,916 Speaker 1: me sort of translate that over to say, what sort 521 00:26:25,956 --> 00:26:27,996 Speaker 1: of things are happening in the present right now that 522 00:26:28,116 --> 00:26:32,556 Speaker 1: may evolve into something much bigger later. And so even 523 00:26:32,596 --> 00:26:37,196 Speaker 1: though it may be scary and uncertain and undesirable to 524 00:26:37,196 --> 00:26:39,796 Speaker 1: think about the future, we still have agency over it. 525 00:26:39,796 --> 00:26:42,756 Speaker 1: We can still start to think about what are the 526 00:26:42,876 --> 00:26:45,036 Speaker 1: seeds that are being planted right now that I can 527 00:26:45,596 --> 00:26:50,596 Speaker 1: fertilize or pull out and change. And I like using 528 00:26:50,636 --> 00:26:54,436 Speaker 1: that lens to start grappling with some of the uncertainty 529 00:26:54,476 --> 00:26:58,836 Speaker 1: that is existing both now and in the decades and 530 00:26:59,356 --> 00:27:00,796 Speaker 1: even centuries to come. 531 00:27:01,396 --> 00:27:04,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, well on behalf of all future versions of myself. 532 00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:08,116 Speaker 2: Thank you for this interview. How it's been such a 533 00:27:08,156 --> 00:27:10,156 Speaker 2: pleasure to chat with you, so thank you so much. 534 00:27:10,516 --> 00:27:12,076 Speaker 1: Thank you, Maya, so great to talk to you. 535 00:27:42,956 --> 00:27:45,716 Speaker 2: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my 536 00:27:45,756 --> 00:27:48,476 Speaker 2: conversation with Hal, you might also like my episode with 537 00:27:48,556 --> 00:27:52,636 Speaker 2: psychologist Kristin Nef It's called the Science of Self Compassion. 538 00:27:53,476 --> 00:27:56,036 Speaker 2: And join me next week for a conversation with author 539 00:27:56,116 --> 00:28:00,156 Speaker 2: and happiness expert Gretchen Ruben. We'll talk about how understanding 540 00:28:00,156 --> 00:28:03,716 Speaker 2: our personalities can help us unlock a better path to happiness. 541 00:28:04,116 --> 00:28:16,596 Speaker 3: See you next week. A Slight Change of Plans. 542 00:28:16,276 --> 00:28:19,436 Speaker 2: Is created, written, and executive produced by me Maya Shunker. 543 00:28:20,156 --> 00:28:23,796 Speaker 2: The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our 544 00:28:23,876 --> 00:28:28,636 Speaker 2: senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our producer Trisha Bovida, and 545 00:28:28,716 --> 00:28:33,476 Speaker 2: our sound engineer Andrew Vastola. Louis Scara wrote our delightful 546 00:28:33,516 --> 00:28:37,196 Speaker 2: theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A 547 00:28:37,236 --> 00:28:40,196 Speaker 2: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 548 00:28:40,356 --> 00:28:43,916 Speaker 2: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a 549 00:28:44,036 --> 00:28:47,236 Speaker 2: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A 550 00:28:47,276 --> 00:28:50,436 Speaker 2: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker. 551 00:28:50,996 --> 00:28:51,796 Speaker 3: See you next week.