WEBVTT - Brain-Computer Links, Rogue AI + Flying Cars 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:12.680 Now really, hello everybody. I am Jason Alexander here with 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:17.000 Peter Children. But we are the hosts of Really No Really, 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:19.759 the show where we explore things that make Peter and 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:26.320 I say really no really. That's right now. Today we're 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:30.480 gonna get We're gonna get very cerebral, literally very cerebral, 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:35.959 because we're talking about neural links, the connection between brains 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:40.120 and tech and tech. This. First of all, I'm solely 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:42.320 in over my head. You know, I'm not a tech guy. 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:45.040 You consider yourself a tech I'm not. I'm not that 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:47.479 much of a tech guy. But oddly enough, I was 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:51.400 studying the blood brain Barry and Parkinson's disease and stuff, whoa, 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:55.080 and and and for like the longest time. Now they're 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:57.920 trying to identify the areas of the brain that satiation 0:00:57.920 --> 0:00:59.600 because you can make a lot of money if you 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.880 can do that and make people feel full. Okay, yeah, 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:06.240 And they've done great things with Parkinson's, they've done great 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:09.280 things with epilepsy. And the doctor we're gonna have on today, 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:11.080 and I'm thrilled we have him because he's a major 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:13.320 guy out of Philadelphia has done great things with sight. 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:16.520 I mean, the great positive parts of all this stuff 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.600 is moving forward with people who are paralyzed. You're doing 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:22.520 all kinds of stuff with spinal cord stimulation, which is 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:26.119 mind blower, and that by willing it you can move 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.880 your limbs. Where it gets a little bit crazy now 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.479 is when you're connected directly to tech. You're the mouse 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:36.320 and you can text. You can do all kinds of 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:38.840 stuff with your brain, play games. The heart moving one 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.080 was at an als patient who had no movement. His 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.160 arms gave a message and I forget it was oh, hello, 0:01:45.360 --> 0:01:48.880 hello world because he could communicate. So imagine yes, your 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:54.639 family being able to communicate with you, etc. However, money involved. 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:57.880 It's two ways. And if it can get signals from 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:00.600 your brain into a computer, then obviously it can get 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:05.080 from the computer into your because because really, no really 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:07.040 to that, if I'm going to lay it out, is 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:10.400 we are closer than you think to being able to 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:15.720 link your brain directly to your computer. Really, no, really, 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.800 So let's find out. We got doctor Daniel Yosher, who 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.440 is nationally recognized NOURS surgery Norse scientists. He is the 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:25.720 chair of the Department of neurs Surgery at the prominent 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.680 School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. UM, and 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:33.280 he's folks, you say hi and talk about your your expertise, 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:36.919 because there's so much that you've done, not only working 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:38.880 with these kind of interfaces. That's why we wanted you 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:40.800 because I read an article I read about a lot 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:42.960 of expertship you said, I know the interface. I mean, 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:46.160 I know what they're doing. Since you do this, you've 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:49.160 seen brains up close, we were curious what your take was. 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:51.640 So thanks for coming on. Well, thank you for having me. 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.840 And if you're going to get into something that's really 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:59.680 illicits really no, really, the human brain, is it? I mean, 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:04.239 you're spot on here and this is a fascinating area. 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.160 And I think you've already alluded to the concerns that 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:11.000 exist if we are able to really harness the power 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:14.040 of the brain and interface it with computer technology to 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:19.440 the betterment of human lives. There are clearly important concerns 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.440 about ethical considerations. What if someone could make a chip 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:25.000 that just made you smarter? Are we going to pay 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:28.760 for added intelligence? Will we'd be doing cosmetic surgery for 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.160 the brain, so to speak. The ethics of the potential 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:37.880 for controlling people's brains, These are big concerns, and it's 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.880 important not only for scientists to address these concerns, but 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:45.320 concerned citizens like you to address these concerns. So I'm glad, 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.800 I'm excited to have this conversation. I introduced this doctors 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:50.800 as saying, we are closer than you think to being 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:53.200 able to link your brain to your computer. Now, you know, 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:56.200 for twenty thousand years I've heard you know, we're really 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:58.720 close to having flying cars, and there's no flying cars. 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:01.760 How are we doing this? Are we in it? Is 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:08.960 it being used with any real success and facility? Where 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.480 are we with it? Great question, Well, there are a 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:16.800 couple of uses that are really happening, and your partner 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:19.800 mentioned one of them, and that is the concept of 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:24.440 deep brain stimulation for movement disorders like Parkinson's disease. That's 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:28.919 sort of a magical situation Parkinson's disease because in the 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:36.720 nineteen seventies some tainted synthetic heroine caused a parkinson like 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:40.720 syndrome and unfortunate patients who took this tainted drug called MPTP, 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:44.960 and this led to an animal model of Parkinson's disease 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:49.160 that allowed neuroscientists and neurosurgeons to really study the circuits 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:52.440 with great precision, and they were able to determine that 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:56.279 putting an electrode in a specific part of the brain 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.160 and turning on activity in that part of the brain 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:03.480 for dramatic pameliorate or improve tremors and other motor symptoms 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.599 of Parkinson's disease. And that's been implanted in hundreds of 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:09.960 thousands of patients to great benefits. So that's an example 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:14.960 of a real life brain computer interfacing device that's used 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:19.040 to help patients. Absolutely. There is another device that's been 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.320 used common for patients with epilepsy. If you can find 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.520 the spot in the brain where epilepsy is coming from. 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.200 Traditionally we try to take out that spot of the 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:34.000 brain to end future seizures, but sometimes that part of 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:35.760 the brain is in a critical area, and as you 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:37.960 can imagine, we don't want to take away, for example, 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:41.200 a person's ability to talk just to cure their epilepsy. 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:44.240 So another route to treat epilepsy is to put an 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:46.760 electrode in that part of the brain where the seizures 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:51.360 normally spontaneously occur, and there's a sensor in this device 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:54.480 that detects when of seizure is about to happen and 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.880 immediately then stimulates the brain to sort of short circuit 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.200 the seizure, and that's quite effective in helping patients with epilepsy. 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.159 So those are two examples of things. Those are flying 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:07.520 cars that are happening right now. To borrow your words. 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:10.760 When you do brain surgery and you open up the 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:13.680 skull for you, it's a it's a thing. Wednesday I 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:17.560 got three five, Friday, I got five brain surgery. They 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:18.719 say it kind of like, yeah, we may have to 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:22.159 do brains like it's nothing, not like it's nothing, but 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:25.120 it's not a concern. As it comes out of their 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:27.599 mouth and parents are family members here, your hair it 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:30.280 goes like back like the maxella, and you go, oh, 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:32.440 it's a major thing. Is it a major thing? The 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:37.200 brain is that fragile. Modern brain surgery is remarkably safe. 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:39.840 We know what we can do very well. And of 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:42.440 course there are cases where we're pushing the limits of 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:44.440 what we can do, where we're forced to because of 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.640 really serious problems that there's no choice that they can't 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.200 be ignored or put off. But for the most part, 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:52.200 you know, we're we're blessed to live in a time 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:58.000 where between technology and gathered experience over decades modern brain surgery. 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.240 That you know, the mortality from brain surgery is very 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:04.200 very low, and the good that it does for society 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:06.960 is great. And are you're hitting the spot by hand 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:08.799 or is it mechanical? I mean, do you have because 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:10.920 it's like I'm guessing, boy, I gotta hit that. I 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:15.360 hope I'm exact or something. All of a sudden, it's 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:19.360 always motor skills. When we're targeting a specific area, like 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:22.000 in the circuits, the motor circuits that are involved in 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:26.200 Barkinson's disease, that's all computer guided and guided by math 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.080 and technology. We're not doing that freehand. We're aiming for 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:33.520 tiny targets using for life frames often awake, usually awake. 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:37.920 It's actually safer away I'm out and they feel one 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:47.280 of the great I'll give you a really really and 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.240 having spoonfuls of his brain and he's having at so bad? 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:53.360 Ye real, By the way, could that happen? I want 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:57.280 to give you a really no really here guys, you're ready? Yeah, 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:02.200 the brain has no feelings. There you go. If if 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:04.600 I find a sin now, if you pin, if I 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:07.640 pinch your hand, it hurts. If I pinch your brain, 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.360 you feel nothing. Yeah, But to get to my brain, 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:12.920 you got to cut through my head. That's true. That 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:23.440 part am I remedial. The brain itself has no sensation. 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.360 You can you do not feel any pit. You feel 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:28.320 pain of course when you cut the skin or the 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:30.680 lining of the brain or the skull, but once you're 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:32.880 down to the brain itself, there is no feeling. But 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:37.000 is everybody's brain I'll explain what I mean in the 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:40.240 second the same Like, for instance, I I'm left handed, 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:44.360 is is that control always in the same part of 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:46.520 the brain where I'm left handed or right handed? Or 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:48.760 is like, oh this guy has his thing is in 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:53.120 a different sector? Now identical sector? What is it? Star 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:55.760 wars here in a ship I'm talking to a doctor, 0:08:55.800 --> 0:09:01.360 wouldn't be. There's a certain basic organization of the brain 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.200 that's the same, but of course there's a lot of 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:06.680 variation within that. So you're absolutely right that left handed 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:10.160 people have a high likelihood that the left side of 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:12.400 their brain is I'm sorry, the right side of their 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:20.640 brain is dominant versus we always check this is how 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:25.199 my right Now he's thinking, wait a minute, yesterday surgery 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.480 that so, and like if you cut ch Asan's head 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:30.360 up in the mind, my brain would be much bigger, correct, 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:33.240 m There isn't a direct correlation with the size of 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:36.920 the brain and intelligence. So even if you're your brain 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:39.840 may not be bigger. So with brain. And when we 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.000 get specifics because I want to read some stuff, claims 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:45.560 not to knock him, but Elon Muscus said that they're 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:47.400 doing and I want to find out how close we 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:50.080 are to that. But the last thing on the mapping 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:51.960 the brain when you're doing surgery, do we know what 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:53.520 every area of the brain does. Are we at the 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.520 point where you know every inch, every microinch or whatever 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:59.440 that is. We have a good understanding of the basic 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.280 organism of the brain. And obviously there's a little variation 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:07.079 from person to person, just as everyone has five fingers 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.079 on their right hand, but everyone's right hand is a 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:13.800 little different. So there is certainly some inherent v How 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:15.760 do you get to that? Yes, and to make somebody 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.880 not hungry? So there are satiety centers deep in the brain. 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:22.400 And one of my colleagues here at Penn you just 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.000 happen to mention an area where we have the world expert. 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.840 Here is a neurosurgeon named Casey Halpern, and he's actually 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:33.880 doing surgery to try to control compulsive overeating by targeting 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.440 a precise site in the brain and stimulating it when 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:42.160 that urge to eat occurs. That's normally uncontrollable in patients 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:45.640 who have, you know, severe overeating disorders. So yes, we 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:47.760 do have a sense of where these areas are. My 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:51.280 particular interests, for example, is vision, and I can tell 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:56.160 you with excellent precision. I know what part of Jason's 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.840 brain and your brain is the area of the brain 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:02.160 that's critical for usual perception. Of course, there's a little 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:06.240 variation in how each gyrus and sulcus is patterned in 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:10.280 each brain, but we know different. Yeah, that's on the 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:13.360 same player. That's what you've done. Yeah, because you've restored, 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.800 You've done surgeries that are restored people. We've done early 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:20.920 efforts to restore site for patients who have acquired blindness. 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:22.800 I want to make it clear, and I think we 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:24.800 have to be very honest about what we do. We're 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:28.120 early on this stage. The flying cars analogy is a 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:30.800 great analogy that Jason mentioned earlier. We don't want to 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:34.120 constantly saying our cars are flying, or to borrow from 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:38.720 Elon Musk self driving until they really are. And all right, 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:40.920 so let me let me I'm going back to just say, 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.360 tell your colleague with the over eating, I booked the flat. 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:46.880 I'll be there Thursday. So just make a note. Can 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:48.600 you tell me via this, I'll put a paper clip 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:50.160 right and you're here. We'll do it right now. So 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:51.960 let me read a couple of things that Elon Musk said, 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.600 not to knock him or just to give context because 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:56.360 he's the one who saying the stuff can be done. 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.360 Musk clean and human trials will begin a six months, 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:01.320 but that's been for years. He's been saying human trials 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:03.520 are going to start soon. He says, as soon as 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:06.960 it happens, he's going to have it linked to himself. 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:09.160 And he said that it's going to be part of 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.040 the brain, and the person who gets fitted would not 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:12.800 even though they got fitted. So you, like you go 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.040 into places, is going to link it to himself for 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:20.360 what because in Must's mind, this is not what the 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.920 doctor's doing to help people who are challenged or have problems. 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:26.360 This is and to scale up because they're investing so 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:29.120 much money and they're all investing. Bill Gates is investing, 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:31.760 Peter theole is investing all the silicon of Aaleguiyers are 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:33.880 racing to invest money to be ahead of this. Because 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:37.520 we talked about the metaverse. We talked about gaming engagement 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.160 is what tech is all about. The longer you engage 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.280 with tech, the more advertising, the more monetary thing. So 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.160 imagine if they can link you in twenty four to 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.640 seven to gaming, to texting, whatever, and they have access. 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:51.840 So that's what Musk is talking about. That is not 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:54.720 to help somebody and enhance, It's more about the whole 0:12:54.720 --> 0:12:56.440 pub that everybody in the public would have it. He 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.000 said He's aiming for brain implants that would be available 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:02.000 to any consumer who once one. And the other thing 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:05.800 he said was his long term plans. He thinks human 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.640 brains need to be directly connected to phones, computers, and applications. 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.440 You can run Google searches directly from your brain, or 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.720 can even imagine connecting to someone else's mind, seeing and 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:17.320 hearing what that other person is doing. And this is 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.960 the science fiction part of what he says. Must says 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:23.160 all this is part of a strategy to offset the 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:26.600 fact that artificial intelligence one day is going to get 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.040 so smart that it poses a threat to mankind, so 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:32.600 we need to be linked to AI to fight the 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.520 evil AI. There we go, So, Doc, Doc, you want 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:38.360 to address that as far as linking, linking to each other, 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.400 seeing what the other person can see, etc. How close. 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:43.920 Let me give you a little context from the ARII 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.240 work and which is an vision. And of course it's 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:49.160 really interesting that you had William Shatner on And obviously 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:51.600 you guys are a little schooled in Star Trek. You 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:55.000 remember the character Jordi LaForge on Star Trek with the 0:13:55.080 --> 0:14:00.760 visual prosthetic device, so that, like everything in art, there's 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.640 a little bit of reality in that. And Gene Roden Burry, 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:07.040 the creator of Star Trek, was aware of this phenomena 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:11.080 that we've known about for many decades that even in 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:14.960 a blind person, if you stimulate the visual part of 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:18.400 the brain in the back of the head, even someone 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.640 who has acquired blindness, who hasn't seen in ten twenty years, 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.600 you can make them see a spot of light because 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:28.000 there's a precise map in the back of your brain. 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.000 You ask me about the differences between people's brains. Your 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:34.440 brains are both a little different. There is some individual variation, 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.520 but each of you has precise maps in the back 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:40.400 of your brain of the visual world and the ideas. 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:42.840 We know the currency of the brain, the signals that 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.400 go on in your brain between neurons. The currency is electricity. 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:49.280 So we know if we can introduce electricity with great 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.880 precision to those maps in your brain of the visual world, 0:14:53.480 --> 0:15:00.520 in theory, we can generate a pixel based representation of 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:03.240 the visual world. The ideas of someone's been blind for 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:07.120 many years, their eyes are irreparably broken. We could use 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:08.960 a camera that they could wear on a pair of 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.320 glasses and attach that to a microcomputer and use that 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:16.040 microcomputer to translate the image that is captured by the 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:19.080 camera into a pattern of stimulation in your brain to 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:23.080 create an image so that is tantalizing. People had worked 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.960 on it for many years. Gene Roddenberry knew about this 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:30.400 work when he invented a visual prosthetic in his imagined world. 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.800 What has people like Elon Musk and Bill Gates and 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:38.240 all the great industrialists and leaders in the computer world 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:41.640 excited is ten years ago, twenty years ago. It was 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.840 a great idea, but the technology was light years away. 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.360 All of a sudden, with miniaturization and advanced engineering and 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:56.560 advanced computers and microprocessors and artificial intelligence. What seemed to 0:15:56.560 --> 0:16:00.680 be a distant dream is probably not that are away, 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.360 and scientists and physicians like me are very excited about 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:08.360 harnessing this potential to help patients who suffer from diseases 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:13.120 and impairments. You mentioned als and spinal cord injury, from 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.560 motor impairments, or the inability to speak for victims of 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:20.880 a stroke. They're people working on speech prosthetics, in my case, 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:23.760 working on visual prosthetics for patients who are blind. But 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.720 you're absolutely right. In the military, they're interested in developing 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:33.080 interfaces to allow soldiers to communicate without speaking and work 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:37.920 in unison. There is deep interest in the computer community 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:40.920 and the meta community that you spoke of. I mean. 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:45.240 Another example is in my world of visual science, which 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:47.720 is the visual neuroscience, which is the study of how 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.760 the brain takes images that are projected into the eyes 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:56.440 and turns them into coherent percepts. A huge commercialization has developed, 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:59.160 and that's the field of computer vision. So this business 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:02.280 you saw in the news papers where at Madison Square Garden, 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:04.440 if you're a lawyer on the wrong list, they won't 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.880 let you in the building. They're able to do that 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:10.400 because they use computer vision to detect your face and 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.440 say person X is on the bad list, they can't 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.840 come in the building. And that's an example of commercialization 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:22.080 of science for purposes that some people might well take 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:37.560 issue with. So you are articulating about how what you're 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:41.520 working on is very therapeutic for a lot of physical 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.720 ailments like als and blindness and whatnot. I think I 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.840 was reading something about is there research being done on 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.119 mental health issues and how this technology can help as 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:56.240 well PTSD or trauma depression. What's happening there. Drugs have 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:59.600 done great things for patients with psychiatric disorders, but when 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:02.080 you put it drug in a patient's body that goes 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:04.680 all over the entire body it's being it affects every 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:07.359 cell on the body. And the dream is if we 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:10.359 can understand the circuits that are particularly involved in a 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:14.560 condition like obsessive compulsive disorder or depression, and we can 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.320 target a device to just hit that part of the 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:20.800 brain and alter the part of the brain that's working 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:25.120 in a way that's unhelpful to the patient's quality of life, 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.920 but not mess up the rest of the brain. That's 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:31.399 the dream. And so there's active research at many leading 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:35.920 centers in the country to develop brain stimulation devices that 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:40.840 will ameliorate these these you know, really terribly disabling disorders. 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.080 And you don't use this for mild depression that's doing 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:47.439 well on antidepressive meds. This is for the patients. If 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.520 we don't need something that yeah, I mean, they're they're devastated. 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:53.520 So absolutely, this is a big part of the scene 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:57.720 right now. So let me let me. Having understood all that, 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:01.680 let me articulate what I think the average person's greatest 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:06.439 fear about this is if we can use technology to 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:12.640 stimulate the brain, especially in the areas of mental health, 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:16.240 where one of the articles I read was that schizophrenia 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.080 is potentially treated this way. It's what I said at 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.520 the beginning of the show. It's a pathway in and 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:26.280 a pathway out. So the fear that I think uneducated 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.879 little guys like me go is, I'm if my brain 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:34.760 can be stimulated by something in this computer technology. Anything 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:39.240 in technology, to my understanding, is potentially hackable, and if 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:43.040 somebody hacked it, are we in a position where I 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:45.320 can be made to see things that do not exist? 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.000 Is that the matrix, can I be compelled to do 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:54.280 things against my will. How potentially destructive or dangerous could 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:58.199 this technology get? Right now, you're safe because we're not 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:02.080 that good can't control your brain, So thank god, you're 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:06.200 safer now. But in theory, and you're absolutely right, there 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:10.040 are technologies that both involve gathering information from the brain. 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:12.800 For example, a motor prosthetic in a patient who is paralyzed. 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.119 We record the signals in the brain as the patient 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.760 attempts to move an arm and translate that into moving 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:22.520 a robotic arm. And that's an example of reading the brain. 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.440 But we can also write into the brain, and that's 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.760 what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to take a 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:32.320 visual image, a picture captured by a camera and write 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:35.679 that into the brain. So you're absolutely right, there's both directions. 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:39.120 Is active areas of research right now. I don't think 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:42.920 you're at threat for mind control. To Jason's point, there's 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:44.560 a I don't know if you know the newer scientist 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:50.159 Raphael Yes, yes, he did an experiment which you can 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:52.760 not only read from the visual center of mouse brain, 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:56.240 but use the laser to make the animal perceive things 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:01.040 that were not there. Absolutely, so that's that's pretty bold. Yes, 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:06.040 it is bold, but it and it is certainly impressive, 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:08.080 and he's a terrific scientist, but he said he was 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.159 concerned about that is it is going to be a 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:15.440 concern as the technology, as the capabilities evolved. Right now, 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:19.000 we don't have to worry about it today, but it 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:21.360 will be a concern. You have to pick a date 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:24.720 we'd like to worry. What's the date, ten years, five years, 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:28.840 twenty years, forty years, let's say twenty years. We'll have 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.760 to serious. And the other thing we're interested in, almost 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.320 equally is which company would you invest in? Right now? 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:39.160 I will say none of this should happen in a vacuum. 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:41.840 It's not like we're dropping these devices on the island 0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:44.879 and Lord of the flies, where there's no rules and 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:48.960 everything runs wild. There has to be some safety nets, 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:53.199 some organizations, some ethical principles. And to be fair, the 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:56.399 NIH the National Institutes of Health, as they invest in 0:21:56.520 --> 0:22:00.159 brain research, have also invested heavily in the ethic of 0:22:00.240 --> 0:22:03.520 brain research. So the other thing, remember the other thing 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:06.080 that is billionaires. And again not to demonize them, but 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:09.440 the big industry can also push back on regulations, get loophole's. 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:10.919 You know, they're also the ones who move it that 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:12.760 way where it can be a little more more dangerous 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:15.600 because we're dealing with we all know. You know, I 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:18.280 heard AI is light years away from it, and yet 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:20.040 there's a reporter on the New York Times it had 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:22.960 a conversation with the being shot pot and the being 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:25.480 shot spot going. I have thoughts that I don't like 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:28.919 to share, and I could do nefarious things. Stopped me 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:31.600 from hurting myself. I mean, it seems like it leaped, 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:35.439 you know, beyond anyone's expectation. And that's my concern about this. 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:38.080 My other concern is and I don't know if I'm 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:40.120 right or wrong about this. So one of the things 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:42.960 we were talking about is one of your colleagues work 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:47.639 was helping someone with als um basically move a cursor 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:52.040 with their with their mind robotic ard. Yes, absolutely exactly, 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:54.520 And that's exactly what I want. I want up because 0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:57.840