WEBVTT - From the Vault: The Ninja, Part 2 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.040 Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:11.920 name is Joe McCormick and it's Saturday, so we are 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:14.560 heading down into the vault for an older episode of 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:17.600 the show. This is part two of the series that 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:22.240 we began reairing on this previous Thursday. This is The Ninja, 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:27.040 Part two, originally published July thirtieth, twenty twenty four. Hope 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:32.560 you enjoy. 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:36.080 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:44.400 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:45.120 is Robert. 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:47.680 Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and. 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:51.800 We are back with our second episode on the Ninja. 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:54.520 If you didn't listen to part one, go back and 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:57.480 start with that one. We talked about the modern pop 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.960 culture idea of the Ninja a bit. We didn't cover everything. 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:03.680 We're going to continue to throw in some mentions here 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:05.880 and there. And we've been getting some great listener mail 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:08.760 from folks writing in about their own first exposure to 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:14.480 Ninja media, either Japanese media or international media, and so 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:16.520 just keep that kind of stuff rolling in and when 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:19.240 we get around to doing another listener mail episode, which 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:24.039 we're currently experimenting with a return to the old format 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:28.120 of having our listener mail episodes occur on a Tuesday 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:30.640 or Thursday. When we get around to that will definitely 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:34.560 dive into the ninja portion of the mail bag. We 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:38.080 talked about how the idea of the ninja entered the 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.760 global mainstream. We discussed a little bit the scarcity of 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:45.160 historical accounts of the ninja, basic ideas concerning the reality 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:47.960 of what we refer to as a ninja, the origin 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:51.200 of the word, other colloquial names for the ninja, and 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:55.760 what sorts of activities they engaged in and are said 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:58.440 to have engaged in. And we also discussed how the 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:01.680 pop culture transformation of the ninja was not a Western 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.760 or even a modern thing, but began in Japan centuries ago. 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:07.640 And so we're going to jump back in here talking 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:12.360 about some more ninja history and sort of like continuing 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:14.640 to sort of tease apart, like what is history, what 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:20.200 is probably accurate from a historical standpoint, and then then 0:02:20.360 --> 0:02:23.960 what are the additional layers of legend and fiction that 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:27.360 also lead to this modern idea of what the ninja is? 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:32.359 Right, So, before we get into more individual anecdotes and investigations, 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:36.680 I wanted to start with a brief way of looking 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:40.240 at the historical basis of the ninja myth. As we 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:44.079 mentioned in the last episode, this is a really complicated subject. 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:48.400 There are serious questions among scholars about to what extent 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:53.440 the historical ninja actually existed at all. It certainly is 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.280 the case that there are lots of historical records of 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:01.080 activities during warfare that were referred to as shinobi. This 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:05.160 is a synonym for ninja shenoby no mono shnoby activities 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:09.120 during warfare, especially during a particular historical period that we're 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:10.880 going to talk about in a bit. So it's not 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:16.520 like a scarcity of historical sources referring to ninja type 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:20.440 activities or shnobi activities. Instead, it seems to me the 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:24.720 historicity question is more about how accurate these sources are, 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:29.640 how to understand what they're talking about within its historical context, 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:33.640 and whether what they're talking about matches the idea of 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:35.640 the ninja that has come down to us. 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:38.120 That's right. Like in the last episode we talked about 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:42.480 how the basic idea, the image that instantly infiltrates your 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:47.680 mind concerning the ninja of the black clad individual with 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:51.320 swords and so forth. This is largely a fiction. This 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:55.160 is largely a create, a creation of fiction and legend making. 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:58.000 But there is something lying underneath it, and we're going 0:03:58.040 --> 0:03:59.640 to try to take a look at what that might be. 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:02.040 Right now now, I want to mention again a major 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:04.400 source that I brought up in the last episode. This 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:08.080 is a book by Stephen Turnbull, who is a British 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:10.600 historian who's written a lot on the history of the 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:14.160 ninja and on Japanese history. The book is called Ninja 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:18.800 Unmasking the Myth from twenty seventeen, and specifically, in this 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.320 section we're about to do, I'm sort of relying on 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:25.640 a chapter of his book that's trying to trace the elusive, 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.480 underlying nature of what the ninja was and how that 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:32.839 relates to the ninja lore that came down. So to 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:37.320 refresh from last time, Ninja or shinobi no mono are 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.920 two different ways of expressing the same idea. The core 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:45.560 idea is a person who sneaks, one who practices stealth, 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:50.320 secrecy or hiddenness, or also, in one alternate reading of 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:54.200 the word, one who practices endurance or patience, which is 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.800 an interesting double loading of meaning on the term. While 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.280 this term can apply to an number of different activities 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:06.080 in warfare. A commonly cited equivalent in English would be 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:10.960 something like spy or secret agent. Now, as classically understood, 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:15.560 ninja or shinobi would be engaged in activities like spying 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:21.479 across enemy lines, infiltrating enemy strongholds, engaging in trickery and deception, 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:26.960 sneak attacks by night, psychological warfare, attempts to sew division 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:30.360 within enemy ranks, and things like that. So it's actually 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:36.080 a rather diverse set of activities or duties that would 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:38.800 fall to the ninja or shanobi. But they're all in 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:42.120 some way related to some kind of hiddenness or deception 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:43.080 or surprise. 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:46.120 Yeah, not all of them translate into the pop cultural 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:48.560 idea of the ninja. Like I've never seen a ninja 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:51.760 movie where the ninja's main mission is to infiltrate the 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:55.680 enemy barracks and start bad talking the rice rations, you know, 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.320 being like, man, they really don't give us good rice, 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:00.520 and they'd give us a little of it. I can't 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:03.880 believe these guys. We should probably think twice about fighting 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:04.279 for them. 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.600 Oh but this actually, yeah, this is perfectly in line 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:11.120 with what some historical uses of shinobi would refer to yeah, 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:14.720 the use of trying to sew division within enemy ranks 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:18.120 by using a double agent or a secret agent. Now, 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:21.400 one really important point is that when looking to our 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:25.279 earliest sources on the real shnobi of history, there is 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:29.479 a linguistic complication, which is that, as Stephen Turnbull talks 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:33.800 about in his book in Historical Documents, shinobi is not 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:37.520 only used as a noun, it can also be and 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:42.480 very often is, an adverb, meaning it's describing an action, 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:47.760 not a type of person. And the adverb form means 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:52.039 that a person, maybe anyone, not just a specialist, can 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:55.599 carry out an activity in a shinobi manner. So we 0:06:55.680 --> 0:07:00.279 often understand ninja or its equivalent shinobi shinomi nomah know 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.479 as a person who is specialized by training. It's a 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:07.279 type of person. But you do have lots of records 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:11.760 of groups of regular soldiers or other people carrying out 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:16.000 a shinoby attack on a castle or fortress, usually meaning 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.960 a sneak attack by night, or some of their secretive approach, 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.840 and this creates issues for historians when you see a 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.360 story of somebody doing some kind of shinoby attack in 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:29.800 the adverb sense. Do you count that as a story 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:33.040 of a shinoby as a noun, as like a did 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:36.640 a ninja necessarily do that? Or is this the case 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:39.640 where we're using the equivalent of ninja to describe just 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:42.200 a way of doing something in secret, even if they're 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:43.200 not a specialist. 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:46.160 Yeah, you know, this reminds me of a moment in 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.840 the recent adaptation of Showgun, the excellent FX adaptation that 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:54.840 I have the recommend in the pivotal scene where these 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:58.880 Shinobi attack. If memory serves and I've only seen it once, 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:03.000 I believe the characters exclaim like shnobi, and it's maybe 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:05.040 left a little vague, like they're just saying like something 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:09.840 shinobi is occurring, like sound the alarm of shnobi actions 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:10.520 in progress. 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:13.320 Oh yeah, that's interesting, And so that could refer to 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:18.040 any kind of like deception or surprise or hiddenness. Yeah, 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.800 but to come back to the idea of shinobi nomono, 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.280 the people who practice shenobi or hiddenness, we can again 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:26.760 just call them shinobi for short, to the extent that 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:31.840 they were historical specialists in spying and undercover warfare, when 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.959 did they flourish? There's a bit of complication here also 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.600 because you get some claims of earlier precedents. We're going 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:41.280 to talk about some of these later in this episode. 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:46.120 But the classical ninja the classical shanobi are primarily associated 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.679 with the Singoku Period, also known as the Warring States 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:53.160 period of Japanese history. This was a turbulent age of 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:57.200 roughly one hundred years with fuzzy boundaries from the mid 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:03.400 fifteenth to the mid to late sixteenth characterized by civil wars, rebellions, 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:07.000 and revolts throughout Japan, and this time came to a 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.360 close as the country fell under the central control of 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:16.160 the Tokugawa Shogunate beginning around the seventeenth century. So this 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.280 time the Singoku period, the time of civil wars in 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:22.679 the fourteen hundreds to the fifteen hundreds. This was the 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:26.600 heyday of the historical ninja, and it's in records of 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.599 this time period that we'll find the historical basis of 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.960 the ninja myth, if there is one. Now, Turnbull raises 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:38.199 a few very interesting questions about the historical ninja from 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:44.240 the Singoku period and how they relate to received facts 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.360 about the ninja that we've sort of gotten from the 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:50.560 tradition and lore that emerged over time. One question that 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:55.679 comes up is are the ninja uniquely Japanese Ninja are 0:09:55.720 --> 0:10:01.920 sometimes represented as a totally unique Japanese inn in secret warfare, 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.280 But Turnbull disputes this, saying that if you look at 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:08.120 the types of activities that are attributed to them in 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:11.040 the sources that have some chance of being historically accurate, 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:15.200 they're similar to activities we see recorded in all kinds 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.840 of societies, in all large war fighting societies. You might 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:23.079 find similar records of activities in China, Mesopotamia, and the 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:23.920 Roman Empire. 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:28.920 Yeah. Absolutely. This is something that the author's hero Coo 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:32.320 Yoda and Matt All talk about in Ninja Attack True 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.200 Tales of Assassin Samuraian Outlaws, which is a book that 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:39.240 I've been turning to in research for this episode, and 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.480 they point out that you see shnobi like activities in 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:47.079 such cases as the Odyssey, you know, which of course 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:51.280 is a literary work, but still like the most one 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:54.559 of the more believable aspects of the Odyssey is, say, 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:57.920 the example of Odysseus dresses as a beggar to sneak 0:10:58.000 --> 0:10:59.040 into the walls of Troy. 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:01.959 Oh. Yeah, you include the Iliad. I would also say, 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:04.920 like the Trojan horse seems like a very ninja or 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:06.400 Shanobi type ploy. 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:09.200 Absolutely. They also point to the episode in the Bible 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:12.040 where Joshuason's a pair of secret agents into the walled 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:14.960 city of Jericho, and you know, just looking around. There 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:19.040 are also accounts of espionage under King Hammurabi of the 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:24.560 second millennium BCE Babylon. They're apparently accounts from ancient Egypt. 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.840 And we've already mentioned the art of war, but the 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:31.920 third the ancient third century BCE to third century CE 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:37.160 Sanskrit text the a Thrastra, also speaks of it. So again, yeah, 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:41.560 the Japanese didn't invent secrecy, assassination, espionage, and all these 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:46.839 other related activities. It just emerges universally as just part 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:48.360 of human conflict. 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.800 But there are some i think cultural details that will 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:56.120 attach themselves to the ninja myth as it develops, that 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:58.720 are more unique, and we'll talk about those as we 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:01.480 go on. Another thing Turnbull points out is that there 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:06.200 are references to spying during warfare in Japanese texts from 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:11.000 before the Singoku period. One example is a text called 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.320 the Shomunkey, which is from the tenth century and it 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:19.120 tells the story of a rebel named Taira Masakato, and 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:23.000 in this record, his enemy hires a spy named koh 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:29.839 Umru who infiltrates Masakado's stronghold with one companion, makes notes 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:33.240 of its layout and defensive capabilities, and then sends the 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.920 companion back to their employer with the information. But in 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:40.360 this story the dangers of spying are made clear because 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:44.840 the spy's employer uses the information, the information acquired by 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:49.280 the spy to launch a night attack, which fails. Masakato 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.160 and his rebels fight off the attack, and this leads 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.920 to the spy being exposed and executed. And there are 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:59.200 plenty of other early examples of stories of people who 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:02.920 go into enemy trees or inside an enemy castle or fortification, 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:05.920 make a note of the layout, and then report back 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:10.320 to outside conspirators. So this is a common form of spying, 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:13.600 a very important thing in warfare. That's a little bit 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:17.280 less what you imagine, if you know you're thinking of 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:20.040 the ninja as like a martial artist, someone who goes 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:23.719 in and sort of does daring individual violence. A lot 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:26.600 of spying is just making note of information and getting 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:27.440 it back outside. 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.400 Yeah, and this reminds me of one thing we talked 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.240 about in the last episode about the different the different 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:37.319 classifications according to sun Zoo of the spy, and how 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.640 there are different things you dare ask of your different 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:45.120 level of espionage operative. And so it's a much I mean, 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.559 it's still highly dangerous, but it's one thing to say 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:51.160 I need you to make a small map and report back, 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:53.400 as opposed to I need you to like switch out 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:55.920 a drink or stab someone in the back with a 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:57.040 dag or that sort of thing. 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:11.800 Right, So, spying both within and outside Japan predates any 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.679 concept of specialized ninja training, and it would have been 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.640 influenced by literature such as the Chinese classic The Art 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:21.640 of War, which you just brought up. I mentioned The 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:23.920 Art of War in the previous episode because of this 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.000 section about the five different kinds of secret agents. But 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:31.280 there is plenty of evidence that Japanese political and military leaders, 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:35.680 including the Samurai aristocracy, were widely familiar with this work 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.280 and others like it. Just one interesting example that stood 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.600 out to me that Turnbull sites there's a story about 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:47.640 an eleventh century Samurai hero named Minimoto Yoshi who used 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:50.200 a clue he had learned from reading the Art of 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.000 War to anticipate in ambush. The clue was that he 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:58.280 noticed birds rising startled from a thicket of forest, and 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.080 he knew that this meant his enemies were settling into 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:05.160 hiding there to launch a trap. So, therefore, Turnbull says, 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:09.400 there's ample evidence that Japan's long history of spying and 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:14.760 undercover warfare techniques are not uniquely Japanese, as some sources 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:18.840 have claimed, but was in part at least influenced by 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.760 Chinese military wisdom already in print for centuries, And the 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:24.880 fact that it goes back so far means that of 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:28.520 course people were spying before there was a concept of 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:32.280 the ninja that emerges in the Singoku period. Now there's 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.280 another thing this chapter addresses that I think is interesting, 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:37.920 and that's the idea of ninja or shinobi as a 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:42.840 hereditary elite. Part of the received ninja mythology is about 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:48.520 specialization and lineage. It's the idea that undercover warfare techniques 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:53.320 in Japan were practiced exclusively by quote a highly skilled 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:59.040 hereditary core of elite warriors called shinobi, and that ninjutsu 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:03.080 the practices of the ninja were the exclusive domain of 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:07.000 these warrior elites. They were sort of medieval commandos with 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:12.240 a hereditary component, and this vision of shnobi also implies 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:16.360 that they may have had some kind of social elite 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.920 status as well, that they were a kind of super samurai, 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:26.000 surpassing ordinary samurai warrior elites in the techniques of covert warfare, 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:30.920 like infiltrating secure locations and causing disruption inside enemy ranks 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:33.480 and all the other stuff we've already mentioned. But as 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:36.200 we brought up in the last episode, there are some 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:40.440 serious reasons for doubting the idea of shinobi as these 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:44.640 hereditary elites. The accounts of shnobi activities taking place during 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:47.600 the Japanese Civil Wars generally do not make any reference 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.720 to the idea of specialized elite warriors, certainly not from 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:56.040 a social elite, and so shnobi activities may be carried 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.400 out by regular samurai or by soldiers, but in other 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:04.520 cases by people who are quite clearly associated with the 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:07.840 lower classes. There is good reason to believe that the 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:11.399 historical Ninja were more likely from the lower classes, and 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:15.440 in some cases even thought of as criminals, and this 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:19.320 does raise a different kind of elite status that Turnbull 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.560 goes into depth about the idea of ninja as a 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:27.400 criminal elite, but this gets complicated too. Many accounts describing 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:31.119 covert military activities of the Singoku period use terms that 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:36.000 are also used to describe common crime. One example is 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:41.320 the Japanese term seto, which normally means thieves. Turnbull cites 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:45.399 a sixteen to fifty three military manual called the Gunpo Geoshu, 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.199 which says, quote, if a daimyo does not have a 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:52.679 seto serving under him, then no matter how good he is, 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:56.720 he will know nothing of his enemy's dispositions. So this 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.600 appears to be describing the work of a ninja as 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:04.280 a spot but uses a common word for thief. Does 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:08.400 this indicate some kind of historical overlap. Perhaps, and there 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:10.919 are some good reasons for thinking that there is actual 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:16.520 direct overlap between ninja in warfare and criminal gangs. But 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:21.119 another possibility is that the idea of a thief or 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:23.919 a bandit is in the eye of the beholder, and 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:28.600 that designation is class related. So to illustrate that, Turnbull 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:33.359 includes a text from the fourteenth century. This is the Minaiki, 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:37.399 compiled in thirteen forty eight and this is a longer section, 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.760 but it reads as follows. Various kinds of disturbing events 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:44.680 occurred around the eras of Shoan and Kingen, with rebellions, 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:49.840 coastal piracy, raids, robbery, mountain banditree pillaging, and so on 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:53.879 happening all over the place. They disguised themselves in an 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:58.520 unusual way by wearing yellowish brown clothes and a ropagassa 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:00.920 hat like a woman's in sea dead of an aboshi, 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.040 which is a type of cap or hat, and not 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:08.080 showing their faces. Individuals who congregated in groups of between 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.399 ten and twenty men wore swords that had no ornamentation, 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:15.600 with rough quivers on their backs and bamboo poles for spears, 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:19.600 and neither helmet nor armor. They withdrew to castles and 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:22.719 took on their enemies there, or they won over an 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.320 enemy but then betrayed him, committing themselves to nothing. They 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.760 were fond of gaming and gambling, and they behaved like 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:32.920 shinobi canusu, meaning sneak thieves. 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:35.600 This reminds me of something we talked about in the 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:41.879 last episode, the idea that you have less historical accounts 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:46.480 of Shnobi in part because you wanted your stories to 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:50.520 be about the aristocratic samurai, the brave exploits of the 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:55.480 samurai in the upper class samurai, as opposed to the 0:19:55.840 --> 0:20:02.119 potentially shameful but necessary activities of actually sneak thieves, as 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:04.960 we're saying here, bandits and pirates exactly. 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:06.680 And this could also give rise to the idea of 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:08.800 ninja as a kind of super samurai. 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:13.520 You know, having mentioned piracy now in that quote you read, 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.719 this does make me see some strong similarities to what 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:19.879 has occurred with pirates as well in popular culture. Like 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:23.920 the modern pop culture idea of a pirate is rather 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:25.880 far removed from the reality. 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:25.919 Of the pirate. 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:31.000 In many ways, we romanticize them to a degree that 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.600 would not have matched up with the reality of living 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:35.560 during their heyday. 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:38.960 Oh yeah, certainly. But then I want to raise a question, 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:43.879 because this applies somewhat to piracy as well. What is 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:48.760 the difference between a pirate or a privateer and a 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:53.399 naval vessel that seizes seizes other ships from an enemy 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:56.359 country and takes on their goods and takes prisoners and 0:20:56.359 --> 0:21:00.879 so forth. Sometimes these boundaries might be a little blurrier 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.679 than you would think, And the same applies here so 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:07.320 in contemporary records, these groups that I was just talking 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.720 about in that passage I read a second ago, they 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:13.960 are referred to with terms meaning thieves or bandits. You know, 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:18.159 they're disreputable, they're sneak thieves. But twenty years after the 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:21.840 passage I just read, Turnbull says that these gangs are 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:27.000 described quite differently as horsemen wearing finely decorated armor and 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:30.639 weapons inlaid with gold or silver, organized and loyal to 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:33.960 their leader. So sounds a lot more like the way 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:37.320 that local warriors who are simply in rebellion against a 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:41.679 distant feudal authority would be described let more like warriors 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:44.879 and an organized political authority, and less just like a 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:49.520 criminal gang. And so Turnbull concludes that there is some 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:53.560 blurring of the lines between warriors and criminals depending on 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:57.600 who is writing the account. Higher class authors would look 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:01.760 down on warriors of a lower level local uprising and 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:06.040 classify them not as worthy warriors. You know, this is 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:10.360 not a political conflict. These are bandits or pirates. And 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:12.720 so a similar thing could be going on with later 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:16.919 records from the Singoku period, which sometimes refer to people 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:21.000 who by description are functioning as spies and secret agents, 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:26.240 but are referred to as thieves or criminals. So it's 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:29.919 possible that in some cases shinobi warriors were perceived or 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:35.280 described as bandits by a contemptuous higher class authority. However, 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:39.000 it's also possible that in many cases actual bandits were 0:22:39.040 --> 0:22:43.960 recruited to warfare and served as shinobi. So this also 0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:48.439 brings up the question of shinobi as mercenaries. So a 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:52.560 mercenary is generally understood as a soldier who is hired 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:54.920 to fight for a land that is not their own, 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:59.560 and records of the use of mercenaries in this sense 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:04.240 in the and Goku warfare are mostly limited to shnobi 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:08.680 type activities. We don't really read of hired mercenaries doing 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:12.280 the work of the samurai, you know, like supposedly honorable 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:16.360 face to face warfare, leading cavalry charges and so forth. Instead, 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:20.240 it seems that mercenaries were used for sneak attacks and 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:23.760 dirty tricks. So you might have a daimyo who has 0:23:23.800 --> 0:23:26.960 his own regular soldiers that are fighting on the battlefield 0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:31.360 and defending fortresses, but in addition to that, the daimyo 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:36.520 might pay local criminals to do high risk activities, including 0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:42.119 shanobi activities like spying, sneak attacks, false flags, and psychological warfare, 0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:46.399 as well as less shnoby coated, high risk maneuvers like 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:51.160 covering the retreat of regular troops, and Turnbull suggests that 0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:56.040 this also militates against the super samurai interpretation of Ninja, 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.600 since records indicate that these warriors were often seen as 0:23:59.760 --> 0:24:03.959 crew food, low class, and expendable, and these warriors were 0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:08.840 also implicated in very sordid types of activities like slave harvesting, 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:13.440 raiding villages, and kidnapping people into slavery, and so from 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:17.040 all this, Turnbull concludes that the sort of super samurai 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:20.960 hereditary elite interpretation of Ninja's is not based in history. 0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:24.080 That they were not from a social elite to the 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:28.479 extent that they existed, but there clearly were people carrying 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:32.320 out these activities at the time, and that if we're 0:24:32.359 --> 0:24:34.840 trying to figure out what their identity was, it may 0:24:34.960 --> 0:24:38.120 very well be that there was significant overlap with crime, 0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:42.960 or at least that many of them were lower class 0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:46.160 warriors who were looked down upon by the social elites 0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:49.600 and in some cases had some criminal experience or criminal 0:24:49.600 --> 0:24:54.639 skills such as piracy or burglary or banditry. Now another 0:24:54.680 --> 0:24:58.760 important note on the changing meaning of shinobi after the 0:24:58.800 --> 0:25:02.480 Singoku period. Again, remember so after this you get the 0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:06.080 Unification period under the Tokugawa Shogunate. This is also known 0:25:06.080 --> 0:25:10.320 as the Edo period. During this time there are lots 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:15.359 of references to contemporary people called shinobi, but in this 0:25:15.480 --> 0:25:18.080