1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: name is Joe McCormick and it's Saturday, so we are 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: heading down into the vault for an older episode of 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: the show. This is part two of the series that 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:22,240 Speaker 1: we began reairing on this previous Thursday. This is The Ninja, 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: Part two, originally published July thirtieth, twenty twenty four. Hope 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: you enjoy. 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 9 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 3: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 10 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 3: is Robert. 11 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and. 12 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 3: We are back with our second episode on the Ninja. 13 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 3: If you didn't listen to part one, go back and 14 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 3: start with that one. We talked about the modern pop 15 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 3: culture idea of the Ninja a bit. We didn't cover everything. 16 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 3: We're going to continue to throw in some mentions here 17 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 3: and there. And we've been getting some great listener mail 18 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 3: from folks writing in about their own first exposure to 19 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 3: Ninja media, either Japanese media or international media, and so 20 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 3: just keep that kind of stuff rolling in and when 21 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 3: we get around to doing another listener mail episode, which 22 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 3: we're currently experimenting with a return to the old format 23 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 3: of having our listener mail episodes occur on a Tuesday 24 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 3: or Thursday. When we get around to that will definitely 25 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 3: dive into the ninja portion of the mail bag. We 26 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 3: talked about how the idea of the ninja entered the 27 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 3: global mainstream. We discussed a little bit the scarcity of 28 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 3: historical accounts of the ninja, basic ideas concerning the reality 29 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 3: of what we refer to as a ninja, the origin 30 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 3: of the word, other colloquial names for the ninja, and 31 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 3: what sorts of activities they engaged in and are said 32 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 3: to have engaged in. And we also discussed how the 33 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 3: pop culture transformation of the ninja was not a Western 34 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 3: or even a modern thing, but began in Japan centuries ago. 35 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 3: And so we're going to jump back in here talking 36 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 3: about some more ninja history and sort of like continuing 37 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 3: to sort of tease apart, like what is history, what 38 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 3: is probably accurate from a historical standpoint, and then then 39 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 3: what are the additional layers of legend and fiction that 40 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 3: also lead to this modern idea of what the ninja is? 41 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 1: Right, So, before we get into more individual anecdotes and investigations, 42 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: I wanted to start with a brief way of looking 43 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: at the historical basis of the ninja myth. As we 44 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: mentioned in the last episode, this is a really complicated subject. 45 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: There are serious questions among scholars about to what extent 46 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: the historical ninja actually existed at all. It certainly is 47 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: the case that there are lots of historical records of 48 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: activities during warfare that were referred to as shinobi. This 49 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: is a synonym for ninja shenoby no mono shnoby activities 50 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: during warfare, especially during a particular historical period that we're 51 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: going to talk about in a bit. So it's not 52 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: like a scarcity of historical sources referring to ninja type 53 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: activities or shnobi activities. Instead, it seems to me the 54 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: historicity question is more about how accurate these sources are, 55 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: how to understand what they're talking about within its historical context, 56 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: and whether what they're talking about matches the idea of 57 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: the ninja that has come down to us. 58 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 3: That's right. Like in the last episode we talked about 59 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 3: how the basic idea, the image that instantly infiltrates your 60 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 3: mind concerning the ninja of the black clad individual with 61 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 3: swords and so forth. This is largely a fiction. This 62 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 3: is largely a create, a creation of fiction and legend making. 63 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: But there is something lying underneath it, and we're going 64 00:03:58,040 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: to try to take a look at what that might be. 65 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: Right now now, I want to mention again a major 66 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: source that I brought up in the last episode. This 67 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: is a book by Stephen Turnbull, who is a British 68 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: historian who's written a lot on the history of the 69 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: ninja and on Japanese history. The book is called Ninja 70 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: Unmasking the Myth from twenty seventeen, and specifically, in this 71 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: section we're about to do, I'm sort of relying on 72 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: a chapter of his book that's trying to trace the elusive, 73 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: underlying nature of what the ninja was and how that 74 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: relates to the ninja lore that came down. So to 75 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: refresh from last time, Ninja or shinobi no mono are 76 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: two different ways of expressing the same idea. The core 77 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: idea is a person who sneaks, one who practices stealth, 78 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: secrecy or hiddenness, or also, in one alternate reading of 79 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: the word, one who practices endurance or patience, which is 80 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: an interesting double loading of meaning on the term. While 81 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 1: this term can apply to an number of different activities 82 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: in warfare. A commonly cited equivalent in English would be 83 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: something like spy or secret agent. Now, as classically understood, 84 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: ninja or shinobi would be engaged in activities like spying 85 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: across enemy lines, infiltrating enemy strongholds, engaging in trickery and deception, 86 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: sneak attacks by night, psychological warfare, attempts to sew division 87 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: within enemy ranks, and things like that. So it's actually 88 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: a rather diverse set of activities or duties that would 89 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: fall to the ninja or shanobi. But they're all in 90 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: some way related to some kind of hiddenness or deception 91 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: or surprise. 92 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, not all of them translate into the pop cultural 93 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 3: idea of the ninja. Like I've never seen a ninja 94 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 3: movie where the ninja's main mission is to infiltrate the 95 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 3: enemy barracks and start bad talking the rice rations, you know, 96 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 3: being like, man, they really don't give us good rice, 97 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 3: and they'd give us a little of it. I can't 98 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 3: believe these guys. We should probably think twice about fighting 99 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 3: for them. 100 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: Oh but this actually, yeah, this is perfectly in line 101 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: with what some historical uses of shinobi would refer to yeah, 102 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: the use of trying to sew division within enemy ranks 103 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: by using a double agent or a secret agent. Now, 104 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: one really important point is that when looking to our 105 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: earliest sources on the real shnobi of history, there is 106 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: a linguistic complication, which is that, as Stephen Turnbull talks 107 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: about in his book in Historical Documents, shinobi is not 108 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: only used as a noun, it can also be and 109 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 1: very often is, an adverb, meaning it's describing an action, 110 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: not a type of person. And the adverb form means 111 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: that a person, maybe anyone, not just a specialist, can 112 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: carry out an activity in a shinobi manner. So we 113 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: often understand ninja or its equivalent shinobi shinomi nomah know 114 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: as a person who is specialized by training. It's a 115 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: type of person. But you do have lots of records 116 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: of groups of regular soldiers or other people carrying out 117 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: a shinoby attack on a castle or fortress, usually meaning 118 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: a sneak attack by night, or some of their secretive approach, 119 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: and this creates issues for historians when you see a 120 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: story of somebody doing some kind of shinoby attack in 121 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: the adverb sense. Do you count that as a story 122 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: of a shinoby as a noun, as like a did 123 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: a ninja necessarily do that? Or is this the case 124 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: where we're using the equivalent of ninja to describe just 125 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: a way of doing something in secret, even if they're 126 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: not a specialist. 127 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, this reminds me of a moment in 128 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 3: the recent adaptation of Showgun, the excellent FX adaptation that 129 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 3: I have the recommend in the pivotal scene where these 130 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 3: Shinobi attack. If memory serves and I've only seen it once, 131 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 3: I believe the characters exclaim like shnobi, and it's maybe 132 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 3: left a little vague, like they're just saying like something 133 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 3: shinobi is occurring, like sound the alarm of shnobi actions 134 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 3: in progress. 135 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's interesting, And so that could refer to 136 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: any kind of like deception or surprise or hiddenness. Yeah, 137 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: but to come back to the idea of shinobi nomono, 138 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: the people who practice shenobi or hiddenness, we can again 139 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: just call them shinobi for short, to the extent that 140 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: they were historical specialists in spying and undercover warfare, when 141 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 1: did they flourish? There's a bit of complication here also 142 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: because you get some claims of earlier precedents. We're going 143 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: to talk about some of these later in this episode. 144 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: But the classical ninja the classical shanobi are primarily associated 145 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: with the Singoku Period, also known as the Warring States 146 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: period of Japanese history. This was a turbulent age of 147 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: roughly one hundred years with fuzzy boundaries from the mid 148 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: fifteenth to the mid to late sixteenth characterized by civil wars, rebellions, 149 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: and revolts throughout Japan, and this time came to a 150 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: close as the country fell under the central control of 151 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: the Tokugawa Shogunate beginning around the seventeenth century. So this 152 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: time the Singoku period, the time of civil wars in 153 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 1: the fourteen hundreds to the fifteen hundreds. This was the 154 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: heyday of the historical ninja, and it's in records of 155 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,599 Speaker 1: this time period that we'll find the historical basis of 156 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: the ninja myth, if there is one. Now, Turnbull raises 157 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: a few very interesting questions about the historical ninja from 158 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: the Singoku period and how they relate to received facts 159 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: about the ninja that we've sort of gotten from the 160 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: tradition and lore that emerged over time. One question that 161 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: comes up is are the ninja uniquely Japanese Ninja are 162 00:09:55,720 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: sometimes represented as a totally unique Japanese inn in secret warfare, 163 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: But Turnbull disputes this, saying that if you look at 164 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: the types of activities that are attributed to them in 165 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: the sources that have some chance of being historically accurate, 166 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: they're similar to activities we see recorded in all kinds 167 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: of societies, in all large war fighting societies. You might 168 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 1: find similar records of activities in China, Mesopotamia, and the 169 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: Roman Empire. 170 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely. This is something that the author's hero Coo 171 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 3: Yoda and Matt All talk about in Ninja Attack True 172 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 3: Tales of Assassin Samuraian Outlaws, which is a book that 173 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 3: I've been turning to in research for this episode, and 174 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 3: they point out that you see shnobi like activities in 175 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 3: such cases as the Odyssey, you know, which of course 176 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 3: is a literary work, but still like the most one 177 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 3: of the more believable aspects of the Odyssey is, say, 178 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 3: the example of Odysseus dresses as a beggar to sneak 179 00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 3: into the walls of Troy. 180 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 1: Oh. Yeah, you include the Iliad. I would also say, 181 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: like the Trojan horse seems like a very ninja or 182 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: Shanobi type ploy. 183 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 3: Absolutely. They also point to the episode in the Bible 184 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 3: where Joshuason's a pair of secret agents into the walled 185 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 3: city of Jericho, and you know, just looking around. There 186 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 3: are also accounts of espionage under King Hammurabi of the 187 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 3: second millennium BCE Babylon. They're apparently accounts from ancient Egypt. 188 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 3: And we've already mentioned the art of war, but the 189 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 3: third the ancient third century BCE to third century CE 190 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 3: Sanskrit text the a Thrastra, also speaks of it. So again, yeah, 191 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 3: the Japanese didn't invent secrecy, assassination, espionage, and all these 192 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 3: other related activities. It just emerges universally as just part 193 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 3: of human conflict. 194 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: But there are some i think cultural details that will 195 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: attach themselves to the ninja myth as it develops, that 196 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: are more unique, and we'll talk about those as we 197 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: go on. Another thing Turnbull points out is that there 198 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: are references to spying during warfare in Japanese texts from 199 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: before the Singoku period. One example is a text called 200 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: the Shomunkey, which is from the tenth century and it 201 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: tells the story of a rebel named Taira Masakato, and 202 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: in this record, his enemy hires a spy named koh 203 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:29,839 Speaker 1: Umru who infiltrates Masakado's stronghold with one companion, makes notes 204 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: of its layout and defensive capabilities, and then sends the 205 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: companion back to their employer with the information. But in 206 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: this story the dangers of spying are made clear because 207 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: the spy's employer uses the information, the information acquired by 208 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: the spy to launch a night attack, which fails. Masakato 209 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: and his rebels fight off the attack, and this leads 210 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: to the spy being exposed and executed. And there are 211 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: plenty of other early examples of stories of people who 212 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: go into enemy trees or inside an enemy castle or fortification, 213 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: make a note of the layout, and then report back 214 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: to outside conspirators. So this is a common form of spying, 215 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: a very important thing in warfare. That's a little bit 216 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: less what you imagine, if you know you're thinking of 217 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: the ninja as like a martial artist, someone who goes 218 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,719 Speaker 1: in and sort of does daring individual violence. A lot 219 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: of spying is just making note of information and getting 220 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: it back outside. 221 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, and this reminds me of one thing we talked 222 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 3: about in the last episode about the different the different 223 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 3: classifications according to sun Zoo of the spy, and how 224 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 3: there are different things you dare ask of your different 225 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 3: level of espionage operative. And so it's a much I mean, 226 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 3: it's still highly dangerous, but it's one thing to say 227 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 3: I need you to make a small map and report back, 228 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 3: as opposed to I need you to like switch out 229 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 3: a drink or stab someone in the back with a 230 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 3: dag or that sort of thing. 231 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: Right, So, spying both within and outside Japan predates any 232 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: concept of specialized ninja training, and it would have been 233 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: influenced by literature such as the Chinese classic The Art 234 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: of War, which you just brought up. I mentioned The 235 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: Art of War in the previous episode because of this 236 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: section about the five different kinds of secret agents. But 237 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: there is plenty of evidence that Japanese political and military leaders, 238 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: including the Samurai aristocracy, were widely familiar with this work 239 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: and others like it. Just one interesting example that stood 240 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: out to me that Turnbull sites there's a story about 241 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: an eleventh century Samurai hero named Minimoto Yoshi who used 242 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: a clue he had learned from reading the Art of 243 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: War to anticipate in ambush. The clue was that he 244 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: noticed birds rising startled from a thicket of forest, and 245 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: he knew that this meant his enemies were settling into 246 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: hiding there to launch a trap. So, therefore, Turnbull says, 247 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: there's ample evidence that Japan's long history of spying and 248 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: undercover warfare techniques are not uniquely Japanese, as some sources 249 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: have claimed, but was in part at least influenced by 250 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: Chinese military wisdom already in print for centuries, And the 251 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: fact that it goes back so far means that of 252 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: course people were spying before there was a concept of 253 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: the ninja that emerges in the Singoku period. Now there's 254 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: another thing this chapter addresses that I think is interesting, 255 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: and that's the idea of ninja or shinobi as a 256 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: hereditary elite. Part of the received ninja mythology is about 257 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: specialization and lineage. It's the idea that undercover warfare techniques 258 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: in Japan were practiced exclusively by quote a highly skilled 259 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: hereditary core of elite warriors called shinobi, and that ninjutsu 260 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: the practices of the ninja were the exclusive domain of 261 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: these warrior elites. They were sort of medieval commandos with 262 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: a hereditary component, and this vision of shnobi also implies 263 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: that they may have had some kind of social elite 264 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: status as well, that they were a kind of super samurai, 265 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: surpassing ordinary samurai warrior elites in the techniques of covert warfare, 266 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: like infiltrating secure locations and causing disruption inside enemy ranks 267 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: and all the other stuff we've already mentioned. But as 268 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: we brought up in the last episode, there are some 269 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: serious reasons for doubting the idea of shinobi as these 270 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: hereditary elites. The accounts of shnobi activities taking place during 271 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: the Japanese Civil Wars generally do not make any reference 272 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: to the idea of specialized elite warriors, certainly not from 273 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: a social elite, and so shnobi activities may be carried 274 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: out by regular samurai or by soldiers, but in other 275 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: cases by people who are quite clearly associated with the 276 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: lower classes. There is good reason to believe that the 277 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: historical Ninja were more likely from the lower classes, and 278 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: in some cases even thought of as criminals, and this 279 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: does raise a different kind of elite status that Turnbull 280 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: goes into depth about the idea of ninja as a 281 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 1: criminal elite, but this gets complicated too. Many accounts describing 282 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: covert military activities of the Singoku period use terms that 283 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: are also used to describe common crime. One example is 284 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: the Japanese term seto, which normally means thieves. Turnbull cites 285 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 1: a sixteen to fifty three military manual called the Gunpo Geoshu, 286 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 1: which says, quote, if a daimyo does not have a 287 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 1: seto serving under him, then no matter how good he is, 288 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: he will know nothing of his enemy's dispositions. So this 289 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: appears to be describing the work of a ninja as 290 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: a spot but uses a common word for thief. Does 291 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 1: this indicate some kind of historical overlap. Perhaps, and there 292 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 1: are some good reasons for thinking that there is actual 293 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: direct overlap between ninja in warfare and criminal gangs. But 294 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: another possibility is that the idea of a thief or 295 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: a bandit is in the eye of the beholder, and 296 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: that designation is class related. So to illustrate that, Turnbull 297 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: includes a text from the fourteenth century. This is the Minaiki, 298 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 1: compiled in thirteen forty eight and this is a longer section, 299 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: but it reads as follows. Various kinds of disturbing events 300 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: occurred around the eras of Shoan and Kingen, with rebellions, 301 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: coastal piracy, raids, robbery, mountain banditree pillaging, and so on 302 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 1: happening all over the place. They disguised themselves in an 303 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: unusual way by wearing yellowish brown clothes and a ropagassa 304 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: hat like a woman's in sea dead of an aboshi, 305 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: which is a type of cap or hat, and not 306 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: showing their faces. Individuals who congregated in groups of between 307 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: ten and twenty men wore swords that had no ornamentation, 308 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: with rough quivers on their backs and bamboo poles for spears, 309 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: and neither helmet nor armor. They withdrew to castles and 310 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,719 Speaker 1: took on their enemies there, or they won over an 311 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: enemy but then betrayed him, committing themselves to nothing. They 312 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: were fond of gaming and gambling, and they behaved like 313 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: shinobi canusu, meaning sneak thieves. 314 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 3: This reminds me of something we talked about in the 315 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 3: last episode, the idea that you have less historical accounts 316 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 3: of Shnobi in part because you wanted your stories to 317 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 3: be about the aristocratic samurai, the brave exploits of the 318 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 3: samurai in the upper class samurai, as opposed to the 319 00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 3: potentially shameful but necessary activities of actually sneak thieves, as 320 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 3: we're saying here, bandits and pirates exactly. 321 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 1: And this could also give rise to the idea of 322 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 1: ninja as a kind of super samurai. 323 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 3: You know, having mentioned piracy now in that quote you read, 324 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,719 Speaker 3: this does make me see some strong similarities to what 325 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 3: has occurred with pirates as well in popular culture. Like 326 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 3: the modern pop culture idea of a pirate is rather 327 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,880 Speaker 3: far removed from the reality. 328 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: Of the pirate. 329 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 3: In many ways, we romanticize them to a degree that 330 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 3: would not have matched up with the reality of living 331 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 3: during their heyday. 332 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, certainly. But then I want to raise a question, 333 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: because this applies somewhat to piracy as well. What is 334 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: the difference between a pirate or a privateer and a 335 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: naval vessel that seizes seizes other ships from an enemy 336 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: country and takes on their goods and takes prisoners and 337 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: so forth. Sometimes these boundaries might be a little blurrier 338 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: than you would think, And the same applies here so 339 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: in contemporary records, these groups that I was just talking 340 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: about in that passage I read a second ago, they 341 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: are referred to with terms meaning thieves or bandits. You know, 342 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 1: they're disreputable, they're sneak thieves. But twenty years after the 343 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: passage I just read, Turnbull says that these gangs are 344 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: described quite differently as horsemen wearing finely decorated armor and 345 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 1: weapons inlaid with gold or silver, organized and loyal to 346 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: their leader. So sounds a lot more like the way 347 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: that local warriors who are simply in rebellion against a 348 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: distant feudal authority would be described let more like warriors 349 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: and an organized political authority, and less just like a 350 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: criminal gang. And so Turnbull concludes that there is some 351 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: blurring of the lines between warriors and criminals depending on 352 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: who is writing the account. Higher class authors would look 353 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: down on warriors of a lower level local uprising and 354 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: classify them not as worthy warriors. You know, this is 355 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 1: not a political conflict. These are bandits or pirates. And 356 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: so a similar thing could be going on with later 357 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: records from the Singoku period, which sometimes refer to people 358 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: who by description are functioning as spies and secret agents, 359 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: but are referred to as thieves or criminals. So it's 360 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: possible that in some cases shinobi warriors were perceived or 361 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: described as bandits by a contemptuous higher class authority. However, 362 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: it's also possible that in many cases actual bandits were 363 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: recruited to warfare and served as shinobi. So this also 364 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: brings up the question of shinobi as mercenaries. So a 365 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: mercenary is generally understood as a soldier who is hired 366 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: to fight for a land that is not their own, 367 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: and records of the use of mercenaries in this sense 368 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: in the and Goku warfare are mostly limited to shnobi 369 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: type activities. We don't really read of hired mercenaries doing 370 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: the work of the samurai, you know, like supposedly honorable 371 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,360 Speaker 1: face to face warfare, leading cavalry charges and so forth. Instead, 372 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: it seems that mercenaries were used for sneak attacks and 373 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: dirty tricks. So you might have a daimyo who has 374 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: his own regular soldiers that are fighting on the battlefield 375 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: and defending fortresses, but in addition to that, the daimyo 376 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: might pay local criminals to do high risk activities, including 377 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: shanobi activities like spying, sneak attacks, false flags, and psychological warfare, 378 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: as well as less shnoby coated, high risk maneuvers like 379 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: covering the retreat of regular troops, and Turnbull suggests that 380 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: this also militates against the super samurai interpretation of Ninja, 381 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: since records indicate that these warriors were often seen as 382 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,959 Speaker 1: crew food, low class, and expendable, and these warriors were 383 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: also implicated in very sordid types of activities like slave harvesting, 384 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: raiding villages, and kidnapping people into slavery, and so from 385 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: all this, Turnbull concludes that the sort of super samurai 386 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: hereditary elite interpretation of Ninja's is not based in history. 387 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: That they were not from a social elite to the 388 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,479 Speaker 1: extent that they existed, but there clearly were people carrying 389 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: out these activities at the time, and that if we're 390 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what their identity was, it may 391 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: very well be that there was significant overlap with crime, 392 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: or at least that many of them were lower class 393 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: warriors who were looked down upon by the social elites 394 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: and in some cases had some criminal experience or criminal 395 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 1: skills such as piracy or burglary or banditry. Now another 396 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: important note on the changing meaning of shinobi after the 397 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: Singoku period. Again, remember so after this you get the 398 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 1: Unification period under the Tokugawa Shogunate. This is also known 399 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: as the Edo period. During this time there are lots 400 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: of references to contemporary people called shinobi, but in this 401 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: time period they are not at all the ninja you 402 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:19,959 Speaker 1: have in mind, and they're also not the ninja we 403 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: were just thinking we were just talking about that are 404 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: engaging in secrecy during warfare. Instead, the shanobi of the 405 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: Tokugawa period were official agents of the central government, which 406 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: ruled the country by martial law, and the duties of 407 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: these agents included rooting out dissent and disloyalty among the people. 408 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: So in reality, their function at this time was more 409 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: like a secret police than a class of secret agents 410 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: turnbull rights quote. They were engaged instead in sordid tasks 411 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: such as listening to gossip through keyholes, ready to denounce 412 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,199 Speaker 1: their victims and give them over to torture and confession. 413 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: It's a very different take on the idea of shinobi 414 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: that the same term is being used here to describe 415 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: this very different orientation. But strangely, this is also when 416 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: this subsequent literature mythologizing the ninja from the earlier period. 417 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 3: Sort of emerges fascinating and this ties into I mentioned 418 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 3: in the last episode that when I recently traveled to Japan, 419 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 3: I got to see some historic sites associated with Shanobi 420 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 3: with ninja, and one of them bears mentioned right here, 421 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 3: because when I was visiting the grounds of the Imperial 422 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 3: Palace in Tokyo, there is a place known as the 423 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 3: hyakunen Bansho Guard House. It's located in the East Gardens 424 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 3: and it was the headquarters of the Hyakun and Gumi 425 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 3: teams that protected Edo. This would have housed samurai but 426 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 3: also ninja, and it served as a checkpoint in guard house. 427 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 3: So the historical situation here is that in fifteen ninety, 428 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 3: when the warlord Tokugawa Ayasu began fortifying the fishing village 429 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 3: that would become Edo modern day Tokyo, he had already 430 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 3: integrated Shenobi into his personal army, allegedly in special forces roles, 431 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 3: and had the caveat there. Based on everything we've been 432 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 3: discussing here, but then during the Edo period they took 433 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,479 Speaker 3: on new roles, so he formed them into one hundred 434 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 3: man platoons or Hayakun and gumi and charge they were 435 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 3: charged not with espionage, not with again what we would 436 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 3: think of is ninja activities or even these more like 437 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 3: sort of criminal mercenary activities, but they were discharged with 438 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 3: roles involved in protecting the city using modern flintlock rifles 439 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 3: and using them potentially at fortified positions. So Yoda and 440 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 3: all compare them to like a kind of like homeland 441 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 3: security and Secret Service rolled into one. So, like you 442 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 3: said earlier, kind of kind of like a secret police 443 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 3: manning check points, checking papers, and you know, also keeping 444 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 3: keeping an ear open for anything they need to pass 445 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 3: up the chain. 446 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: So it's interesting to to really trace the evolution of 447 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: the concept here and to dig through these sources to 448 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 1: try to find the foundation of it in real history. 449 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,199 Speaker 1: But despite all of these caveats about like what the 450 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: real ninja were, to the extent that they really existed 451 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: and where these stories come from, I think we would 452 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: it would we would really be remiss if we denied 453 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: ourselves just delving headfirst into the ninja legend, uh and 454 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: just exploring some of the anecdotes, whatever their basis in 455 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: real history. 456 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so we should probably begin with the what 457 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 3: is in some accounts, the first Ninja of Japanese traditions. Again, 458 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 3: this is possible to define from a realistic standpoint. Again, 459 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 3: like nobody invented espionage, per se, no one invented assassination, 460 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 3: and so forth. But according to Japanese traditions, there was 461 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 3: an individual named a Tomo who would have served the 462 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 3: semi legendary regent by the name of Prince Shotaku, who 463 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 3: was also known by various other names, and he would 464 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 3: have lived five seventy four through six twenty two CE. Now, 465 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 3: given his era and his status, he's attributed with a 466 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 3: vast number of things. We've encountered situations like this before 467 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 3: in various cultures. Where you have a significantly old and 468 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 3: semi legendary leader, they're going to be associated with various 469 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 3: you know, it can be things even straight up magical 470 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 3: and mythological acts or culture bearing acts, or you get 471 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,479 Speaker 3: the idea. In many cases where it's like somebody who 472 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 3: worked for them invented something or something was invented in 473 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 3: their era, and therefore they are now the inventor. Yes, 474 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 3: and so Shataku is he's been attributed as promoting the 475 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 3: spread of Buddhism. Okay, fair enough. I'd said that he 476 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 3: was an excellent multitasker, which I've read nobody is maybe, 477 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 3: I mean, I guess maybe maybe he was an okay multitasker. 478 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 3: But I've also read that it might have to do 479 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 3: with like just like how many different streams of information 480 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 3: were coming to him or something, but also the idea 481 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 3: that he invented sushi cool, which I think is quite questionable. 482 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 3: I how many culinary inventions can truly be attributed to rulers, 483 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 3: you know, in kings and emperors and so forth. Generally 484 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 3: it's more of a bottom up sort of situation with 485 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 3: culinary invention. Yeah, But anyway, a Tomo was a regent. 486 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 3: He served Empress Suiko, and he was an early Japanese 487 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 3: proponent of sun Zu's The Art of War, which we've 488 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 3: you know, we've been talking about as being a text 489 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 3: that definitely values and quantifies and defines the different forms 490 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,239 Speaker 3: of espionage that are important for any kind of like 491 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 3: military operation. 492 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and places a lot of importance on spies. Doesn't 493 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: just say like, here are the types of spies to 494 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: use but it's like, make sure you use your spies. 495 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: You should never fight a battle until you have adequately 496 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: discovered all of your enemy's secrets. 497 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah again, it's like, you know, you may 498 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 3: not like thieves, but you need thieves. You know you're 499 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 3: not going to win this battle or this war via 500 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 3: bravery and nobility alone. So Prince Chataku is said to 501 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 3: have dubbed o Tomo this shnoby individual as Ghenoby along 502 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 3: with his operatives, and they aided him in surviving against 503 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 3: a vast enemy army that outnumbered them seemingly via some 504 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 3: specific shanobi tricks. I don't know that we really have 505 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 3: an idea what those tricks were, but Yoda and all 506 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 3: point out that their suspicion that they might have involve 507 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 3: tricking the enemy into thinking their forces were more numerous 508 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 3: than they actually were. Like, they point to some other 509 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 3: examples of this that may be connected, such as dressing 510 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 3: civilians up in armor or making them look more or 511 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 3: less like soldiers, sort of putting extras in place so 512 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 3: that your forces look greater than they are. So yeah, 513 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 3: total shanobi move and so in ninja traditions, in ninja 514 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 3: culture and pop culture, Atmo would come to be described 515 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 3: as the first ninja. The info may be scant, but 516 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 3: yet it sounds like a Tomo was more in line 517 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 3: with what we think of is kind of like a 518 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 3: master of spies, a misinformation manager, and so forth. I 519 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 3: should also point out that Atomo is apparently also the 520 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 3: name of one of the android ninjas in RoboCop III. 521 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 3: The ninja culture, you know, spreads far and wide. It's irresistible. 522 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: Did these ninjas have rocket boots or something? Were they 523 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: rocket ninjas? I don't know. 524 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 3: They had swords? I think they you know, it's been 525 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 3: a very long time since I watched RoboCop three. I 526 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 3: think maybe RoboCop had rocket boots or some sort of 527 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 3: rocket system that he used to fly. 528 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: Oh no, do we have to watch RoboCop three for 529 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: weird house? I don't know, investigations for another time. 530 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. So in this book, Ninja Attack True Tales of 531 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 3: Assassin Samurai Outlaws. As the title suggests, it's not all 532 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 3: just about ninja's It kind of spreads out to ninja 533 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 3: adjacent characters and roles. So it looks at historical and 534 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 3: legendary figures that have, through one way or another, become 535 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 3: associated with ninja tradition, many of them are only vaguely shanobi, 536 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 3: and they may fit the mold of the latter day 537 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 3: mint ninja myth one way or the other, but not directly. 538 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 3: So you know, you have some characters in there that 539 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 3: are just great warriors. You have some that are definite 540 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 3: assassins or would be assassins, spymasters, and also wizards and 541 00:33:59,160 --> 00:33:59,959 Speaker 3: magic users. 542 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: Hmm. Oh, and I don't recall if we've brought this 543 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: up yet in the series or not, but one thing 544 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: to absolutely understand is that a lot of early ninja 545 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: legend and references to ninjutsu the practice of a ninja 546 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: are clearly magical in nature. 547 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 3: Yes, And one of the best examples of that is 548 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 3: the fictional character who had go on to become just 549 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 3: a staple of ninja pop culture, especially in Japan, is Juria. 550 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 3: So Juriah was the protagonist of an eighteen oh six 551 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 3: book by kanwate Onnataki. But modern ninja fans probably wouldn't 552 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 3: have even recognized Jeria as a ninja because, on one hand, 553 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,839 Speaker 3: the all black ninja garb had not been invented yet, 554 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,240 Speaker 3: that wasn't a part of the of the genre yet. 555 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 3: And at this point in Ninja Lored they were, as 556 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 3: we've been discussing, far more associated with dark magic. They 557 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 3: were more likely to use some sort of a spell 558 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 3: against you than to bust out out, you know, some 559 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 3: sort of martial arts attack. And so Juriah was a 560 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 3: just a kimono wearing like he's just describes wearing kimono's 561 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 3: just wearing like regular clothes, Robin Hood like character. He 562 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 3: was a robber with a heart of gold and the 563 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 3: magical ability to summon a giant, mighty phantom toad that 564 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 3: served as his steed. 565 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,240 Speaker 1: That is so much cooler than the now cliche idea 566 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 1: of someone riding a dragon. Riding a dragon, I've seen 567 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: it a million times. Dragon's already sort of like a 568 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: horse anyway, I don't know why, don't ask me why. 569 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: It just is the dragon's kind of like a horse 570 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,360 Speaker 1: riding a toad. That's different. 571 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, not only this, he had a sidekick who was 572 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 3: a female master of slug magic, and they battled an 573 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,879 Speaker 3: evil master of snake magic. And so Yoda and Alt 574 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 3: stress that there's kind of like a rock paper scissors 575 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 3: scenario here in this magic system. Brandon Sanderson may get 576 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 3: a lot of credit for his complex magical systems in 577 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 3: his novels, But does he have snake toad slug level 578 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 3: of magic here? Because basically the way it works is 579 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 3: that snakes beat toads, Slugs beat snakes, and toads beat slugs, 580 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 3: and that's the way the magic system works. 581 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: What yeah, how do the slugs beat snakes? They just do? Okay, 582 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: they just do. 583 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 3: It's just it's just how reality works. 584 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, that's just science. 585 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 3: But Juriah has remained a strong part of Japanese pop culture, 586 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 3: enjoying multiple retellings and apparently factors into the popular anime Naruto, 587 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 3: which I think I've only watched one episode of, so 588 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 3: I didn't get in deep enough to see all of 589 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 3: the threads. But so many of these characters in Japanese 590 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 3: ninja pop culture, they end up emerging and re emerging, 591 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 3: you know, people keep diving back in and re exploring 592 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 3: them and reinventing them. But yeah, Juriah seems to have 593 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:59,359 Speaker 3: been a very pivotal figure in ninja fiction, igniting a 594 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 3: huge nin of fad around eighteen thirty nine. This is 595 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,879 Speaker 3: when an illustrated publication of the text in question came out, 596 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 3: and you ended up with like thirty years of sequels 597 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 3: following that, along with various imitators, theater adaptations, and there 598 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,399 Speaker 3: was eventually a nineteen twenty one film version. A film 599 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 3: adaptation of this story called Jeriah the Hero sometimes cited 600 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 3: is the first tokusatsu or special effects movie, and Joe, 601 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 3: I have not seen it myself, but I included a 602 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,760 Speaker 3: still from it here where you can see a giant 603 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:33,760 Speaker 3: phantom toad jumping into battle. 604 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: I believe, my god, that's so good. And I just 605 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 1: looked at it. I think I have found a stream 606 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: of this online, so we could watch it. 607 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,320 Speaker 3: We could watch it for weird House. Yeah, I believe 608 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 3: it's a twenty one minute film. So, yeah, it looks 609 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 3: like there are some streams. 610 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: Okay, that's gone on the list. 611 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 3: They mentioned that they so the book goes into a 612 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 3: lot of the other ways that the fictional world of 613 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,479 Speaker 3: the ninja grew and spread. You know, later on during 614 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 3: the early nineteen tens, the novel Sara Toobe Saske was 615 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 3: a big ninja hit, still leaning more heavily on the 616 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 3: magical aspects of the ninja, and then you would just 617 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 3: get an additional ninja revivals that would occur in like 618 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:18,240 Speaker 3: the fifties and sixties, and I think those waves will continue, 619 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 3: and you still see it continuing today, Like ninjas have 620 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 3: not gone away. It's not like everyone's like, hey, do 621 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 3: you remember ninja movies? Like now they're still around. This 622 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 3: ninja video game is still around, but there'll still be 623 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 3: an occasional like big hit that comes out and it 624 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 3: reminds everyone just how awesome ninja fiction really is. 625 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: So the way I understand it, it's this revival of 626 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: interest in the ninja through these like novels and stories 627 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 1: and movies in roughly the fifties and the sixties that 628 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 1: give way to the international, especially in English speaking markets, 629 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 1: obsession with the ninja. 630 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, it does make me wonder like, outside of Japan 631 00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 3: an international level, what would happen if you had a 632 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 3: true like sort of revitalization of the black magic aspect 633 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 3: of ninja. You know, that might be interesting, But again, 634 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 3: that seems to have never completely gone away in Japanese 635 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 3: media itself. 636 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: I think it's halfway there in some American ninja media, 637 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: Like it's not fully the case that we're seeing ninja 638 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 1: as like sorcerers doing spells and writing spectral toads, but 639 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: there's more a kind of vague mysticism to them, you know, 640 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: like that they're portrayed in a way where you wonder 641 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: if they are capable of magic. 642 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And I guess one has to acknowledge Mortal 643 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 3: Kombat ninjas, though I think in some cases I'm always 644 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 3: a little foggy on how everything works in Mortal I 645 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 3: think some of those characters are supposed to be Chinese 646 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 3: as opposed to Japanese, but then they're clearly embracing like 647 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 3: Japanese ninja pop culture. But yeah, you have characters that 648 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 3: are clearly ninjas that are also doing things like throwing 649 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:01,240 Speaker 3: fireballs or freeze by whatever the heck. 650 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,919 Speaker 1: Are like Scorpion and sub Zero interpreted. I never even 651 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: thought about the nationality of those characters. Are they implied 652 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,800 Speaker 1: to be Japanese? I thought it was like Lu Kang 653 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 1: is a Shaolin warrior, isn't he right? 654 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 3: Right? And I believe at least originally sub Zero was 655 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 3: supposed to be Chinese. But this, this is Moratl Kombat. 656 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:26,360 Speaker 3: It plays very fast and loose with its source materials, 657 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,439 Speaker 3: here to create its own strange universe, which I love. 658 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 3: But again, you have to sort of take everything with 659 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 3: a grain of salt and follow it through to like, 660 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 3: you know, the the the original inspirations, to get maybe 661 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 3: an idea of where things come from. And even then 662 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 3: there's a lot of overlap. 663 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: Johnny Cage is American, Sonia Blade is American, right I 664 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 1: think so? 665 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, American, dwell until he was played by an Australian 666 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 3: man in the in the the Mortal Kombat movie in 667 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 3: the nineties and after that, and part of it I 668 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 3: believe is like a dedication to him because he i'd young. 669 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 3: They were like, Okay, Cano is Australian from now on. 670 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 3: Oh so you know you have changes like that that. 671 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: Occur raidings from out world. 672 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. So he's generally or maybe not French gentleman depicted 673 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:19,359 Speaker 3: as French. Yeah, he's French Scorpion. On the other hand, 674 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 3: I think has always been depicted as Japanese, but I'm 675 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 3: not one sure on that either. 676 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,759 Speaker 1: Okay, all right, well, I think maybe we're out of 677 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: time for today's episode, but next time we will be 678 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: back with more stories of Ninja's throughout history, legendary ninjas, 679 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 1: Ninja anecdotes and techniques and technologies, and just we're gonna 680 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 1: find a lot of little corners to look into. 681 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, and there will be a little bit of ninja 682 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,240 Speaker 3: science in there. I can't promise lots of ninja science, 683 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 3: but I know there will be at. 684 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: Least a little bit the physics of toad riding. 685 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 3: Yes, all right, we're gonna go and close it out there. 686 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 3: But let's see what to mention here. Hey, I'll just 687 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,960 Speaker 3: give throughout this once more. If you were on Instagram, 688 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 3: why don't you follow the Stuff to Blow your Mind 689 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 3: Instagram account. It is STBYM Podcast. That's our handle. We 690 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,959 Speaker 3: had to reset it a while back because we lost 691 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 3: access to the old one, and then we were eventually 692 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,239 Speaker 3: able to send in some Shinobi to destroy the old 693 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 3: one from the inside. But we need to get the 694 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 3: followers up on that Instagram. So if you use Instagram, 695 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 3: follow us there. I can promise you it won't be 696 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 3: completely boring. It'll be some you'll get an update on 697 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,439 Speaker 3: what we're talking about sometimes some fun videos in there. 698 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 3: So give us a follow. STBYM Podcast Reminder that Stuff 699 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,400 Speaker 3: to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, 700 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 3: with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Wednesdays, we 701 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,320 Speaker 3: do a short form episode on Fridays, we set aside 702 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 3: most serious concerns, all just talk about a weird film 703 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,280 Speaker 3: on Weird House Cinema, and then we have some vault 704 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 3: episodes that occur. We have a vault episode of our 705 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 3: core episodes on Saturdays and on Mondays. Our current format 706 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 3: is to do a Weird House rewind. That's a vault episode, 707 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 3: a rerun of a past Weird House Cinema episode. 708 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,280 Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 709 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 710 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 711 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 712 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact Stuff to Blow your 713 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:23,759 Speaker 1: Mind dot com. 714 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,880 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 715 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,719 Speaker 2: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 716 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.