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Speaker 1: Hi, everybody, and welcome to Katie's Crib. In this episode

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Speaker 1: I'm so omitting, we're talking to Julie Liffcott Haimes. Julie

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Speaker 1: is the author of the New York Times bestseller How

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Speaker 1: to Raise an Adult, Break Free of the Overparenting Trap,

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Speaker 1: and Prepare Your Kid for Success. In this amazing book,

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Speaker 1: Julie breaks down the impact of overparenting or you know

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Speaker 1: what some of us would call helicopter parenting, can have

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Speaker 1: on children and what leads us as parents to do

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Speaker 1: this in the first place. The book offers helpful strategies

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Speaker 1: for avoiding the overparenting trap so we can help our

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Speaker 1: children be independent and confident as they head out into

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Speaker 1: the world. And it does. I can't even tell you

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Speaker 1: I've listened to this book on tape. It's gotten me

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Speaker 1: through every traffic jam in Los Angeles for the last um.

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Speaker 1: I burned through that book. You guys, run out get

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Speaker 1: it Amazon, Audible, wherever. Julie is also the author of

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Speaker 1: the book Real American, a memoir. She's a mom of

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Speaker 1: two teenagers. She spent a decade as the dean of

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Speaker 1: Freshman at Stanford University. We're so lucky to have Julie

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Speaker 1: joined us on Katie's Crib over the phone today to

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Speaker 1: share her experiences and wisdom with all of us. Hi Julie,

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Speaker 1: Hi Katie, thank you so much for having me. Wow,

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Speaker 1: I'm just thrilled that you're listening to my book in

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Speaker 1: l a traffic jams. Oh it is. It's an incredible

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Speaker 1: book and I feel I mean it's probably a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I mean I only have a sixteen month old, and

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Speaker 1: I think the book all the time to get it right,

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Speaker 1: my friend, I hope so, oh god, I hope so.

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Speaker 1: And the book speaks a lot about this is it

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Speaker 1: called what do you call like the college arms race,

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Speaker 1: or like this whole thing that's happening of like you

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Speaker 1: gotta get into the right preschool, and you got to

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Speaker 1: get into the right elementary school, and you gotta writ

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Speaker 1: into the high school that shovels you into the correct

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Speaker 1: you know, everything about being right and the best, and um,

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Speaker 1: the book talks so much about safety ism and this

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Speaker 1: culture we're living in where kids just really aren't pushed

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Speaker 1: out the door to sort of people were or ride

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Speaker 1: a bike to school at a certain age because it's

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Speaker 1: safe and it's important for them to learn independence. Um.

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Speaker 1: I learned so much from the book. I am very

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Speaker 1: much like you at the beginning. It touched me so much.

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Speaker 1: You said, I think your first kid was five weeks

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Speaker 1: old and you went to look at the nursery school

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Speaker 1: that you had always dreamed of. I did the same

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Speaker 1: thing at five weeks old, and I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I am in trouble. I am an overachieving millennial who

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Speaker 1: thinks this can be done right. I'm a hard worker.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to work my ass off as a mom,

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Speaker 1: and I find your book to be take the pressure off.

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Speaker 1: Oh good, I'm so glad. You know I wrote this

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Speaker 1: book because I was am I jumping in here? No, no no,

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Speaker 1: please jump in jump in. Um. I so appreciate your

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Speaker 1: personal resonance. And at the end of the day, we

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Speaker 1: have been entrusted with this humbling task of trying to

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Speaker 1: be the adults who get to be alongside these young

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Speaker 1: people and escort them on this path to an independent adulthood.

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Speaker 1: It's a humbling task. It's awesome in the sense of

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Speaker 1: big and important, and um, we've just started taking it

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Speaker 1: so overly seriously. We're actually getting in the way of

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Speaker 1: our kids being able to make it along their path.

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Speaker 1: And I learned this because I was a dean at

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Speaker 1: a university working with other people's kids, and I was

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Speaker 1: railing against all of this parental involvement at the college level.

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Speaker 1: Parents wanting to talk to professors, parents wanting to review

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Speaker 1: homework before it's turned in, parents needing to know all

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Speaker 1: the time, what's going on, how's it going. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: get your apartment for you. I'm going to say, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna handle it. And then I had my

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Speaker 1: AHA moment, which was I came home for dinner one

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Speaker 1: night when my own kids were eight and ten. After

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Speaker 1: railing against this behavior on my campus for seven years,

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Speaker 1: I come home. I lean over my ten year old

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Speaker 1: son's plate and I began cutting his meat. And that

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Speaker 1: was the moment when I realized, holy shit, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: can I say that, Oh yeah, yeah, right, yes, Holy shit,

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Speaker 1: I'm on track to be one of those parents who

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Speaker 1: will not be able to let go of her eighteen

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Speaker 1: year old because she's cutting them meat of a ten

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Speaker 1: year old. And I realized he could go to the

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Speaker 1: army at eighteen, he could go to college at eighteen,

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Speaker 1: he could have a job at eighteen. Those are the

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Speaker 1: options pretty much right? And I am under preparing him

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Speaker 1: for that point because I'm cutting his meat and there's

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Speaker 1: so many skills a little human has to learn between

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Speaker 1: cutting your meat and be ready for any of those

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Speaker 1: three outcomes. So that's when I got it, and I realized,

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Speaker 1: I gotta stop criticizing this whole thing and start to

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Speaker 1: understand what are we doing and why because I'm part

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Speaker 1: of it, and maybe i can be part of the

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Speaker 1: solution because I'm definitely part of the problem. Were you

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Speaker 1: able at that point to really woke up the next

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Speaker 1: day everything is no, Oh my gosh. I mean it

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Speaker 1: starts with the philosophical awareness that, oh my gosh, what

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Speaker 1: am I doing? I am living my child's life for him.

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Speaker 1: I'm tying his shoes too long, I'm cutting his meat

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Speaker 1: too long, I'm making sure her homework is always correct

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Speaker 1: and in the bag. All of these things we do

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Speaker 1: to try to help, we have to realize inside of

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Speaker 1: it in kind of an existential philosophical sense, Wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: I am basically supplanting myself in the role they're supposed

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Speaker 1: to play in their own life. This is their life.

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Speaker 1: I'm here to guide and advise, but not do it

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Speaker 1: all for them. So you've got to make the philosophical

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Speaker 1: switch in your head and then you can start to say, okay,

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Speaker 1: so what does that mean. Well, it means you've got

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Speaker 1: to start teaching your kids skills. From the minute your

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Speaker 1: kid can walk, they're walking away. And to us in

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Speaker 1: our melia, whether you're gen X like me or millennial

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Speaker 1: like you, you know, we're terrified by the thought of

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Speaker 1: our kids walking away, right, because we've been branded, you know,

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Speaker 1: the whole stranger danger safety. First, we were just worry

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Speaker 1: that at every juncture there's a disaster about to befall

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Speaker 1: our kids, and so we end up depriving them of

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Speaker 1: all of the independence building and skill building that ought

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Speaker 1: to happen slowly but surely over the course of these

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Speaker 1: eighteen years. Right. My grandmother made me so sad over

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Speaker 1: the holidays. She said, oh, I don't I don't wave

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Speaker 1: or say hi to little kids in the grocery store anymore.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, what, my sweet little granny in Buffalo,

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Speaker 1: New York, And She's like, oh yeah, Like I just

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Speaker 1: feel like I'm not allowed to do that and I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna get in trouble. And I'm like, oh my god like,

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Speaker 1: that is awful, And I have to admit, you know,

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Speaker 1: the first time I ever took my son out of

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Speaker 1: the country, and we were standing right off the plane

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Speaker 1: in the customs line, and every single person was grabbing

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Speaker 1: my kid, kissing his cheeks, holding his hands because he's

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Speaker 1: a baby and he brings joy to people. And my

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Speaker 1: immediate reaction was, oh, my god, we don't know you

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Speaker 1: go away, you can't touch my kid. And then I

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Speaker 1: took a step back and said, no, this is why

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Speaker 1: I'm traveling and showing him places, because we're supposed to

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Speaker 1: meet and see other people on how people do things,

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Speaker 1: and um it just really I've got a lot of

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Speaker 1: perspective that the stranger danger thing is real. Everyone's afraid.

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Speaker 1: My mom used to have this rule. If I don't

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Speaker 1: hear from you in twenty four hours, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: call the cops and I will assume you have been kidnapped.

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Speaker 1: The kidnapping thing, which you talk a lot about in

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Speaker 1: your book Coming of Age at the time when people's

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Speaker 1: faces were on Milk Carton's that was my childhood for sure,

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Speaker 1: and that we're going to be taken and actually the

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Speaker 1: statistics are not, um not, that is not the case, right, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it does happen, and that it happens at

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Speaker 1: such an infinitesimal rate it doesn't make sense to structure

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Speaker 1: every day of childhood around it. To put it in context,

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Speaker 1: a child is much more likely to die being the

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Speaker 1: passenger in a car than they are to be to

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Speaker 1: die or be harmed at the hands of a stranger,

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Speaker 1: and yet we don't construct their lives so that we

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Speaker 1: don't ever put them in cars. I mean, I'm talking

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Speaker 1: to you in l a, right, I know you live

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Speaker 1: my whole life, my whole life, and the Bay Area

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Speaker 1: isn't that much better. So it's a we've allowed that

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Speaker 1: fear to penetrate our minds as parents, and it actually

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Speaker 1: ends up putting us out of our minds because it

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Speaker 1: makes everything this sort of fearful life or death moment,

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Speaker 1: and so are our kids lives, and our lives are

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Speaker 1: incredibly anxiety written riddled as we act as if everything

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Speaker 1: is of such major consequence that we have to kind

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Speaker 1: of be there to hover over it at all times,

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Speaker 1: and this ends up harming kids. Okay, you guys, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break and then we will be

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Speaker 1: back with more Katie's Crib. All right, you guys, I

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Speaker 1: know we're all out there trying our very best to

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Speaker 1: provide and say for our family. So I've been telling

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Speaker 1: you guys about this amazing money saving app called Drop

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Speaker 1: d r o P Drop easy to remember, right, Well,

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Speaker 1: I've been able to save and get money back for

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Speaker 1: all the regular things I do as a mom, and

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Speaker 1: like even just for myself, for all the makeup I

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Speaker 1: get a Sephora, grocery runs at Trader Joe's, diapers at Target,

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Speaker 1: you name it. It's super easy. All you gotta do

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Speaker 1: is link your debit or credit card to the app,

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Speaker 1: and you choose your stores. You shop it already, like

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Speaker 1: you know, like Target or Starbucks or Trader Joe's Uber Lift.

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Speaker 1: So it's the places we all actually shop at, not

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Speaker 1: like some places none of us ever go to. And

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Speaker 1: you shop like you normally do, and the app will

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Speaker 1: keep track of it, and over time you will get

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Speaker 1: enough to reade gift cards to Amazon, Lululum, and Starbucks

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Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of places. This is the perfect

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Speaker 1: time for us moms to get something for ourselves or

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Speaker 1: even for our family. It's an app that rewards you

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Speaker 1: and since I love it so much. All my listeners

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Speaker 1: who download Drop and use promo code Katie's crib spelled

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Speaker 1: k A t i E S c r i B

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Speaker 1: will receive a five dollar credit to the Drop app

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Speaker 1: to choose where you want to redeem your gift card.

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Speaker 1: You'll see all the amazing stories there. It's seriously been

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Speaker 1: such a life changing out for me, you guys, so

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Speaker 1: you're welcome check it out. Now back to our episode.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain for those um listening who haven't read

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Speaker 1: your book in and recommend that you guys do. Can

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Speaker 1: you give us an overview of what you mean when

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Speaker 1: you say I think we've covered it, but just in case,

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Speaker 1: the overparenting, helicopter parenting, so, um, they're all sorts of

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Speaker 1: funny terms. Helicopter parents was probably the original one, but um,

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Speaker 1: snowplow parent, lawnmower parent, drone parent. You can hear the

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Speaker 1: drone right, think of just that buzzing like totally totally

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Speaker 1: totally handle this and swoop back out. Um anyway, so

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Speaker 1: I wanted to get behind the funny terms and figure

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Speaker 1: out what are the behaviors. And there are three kinds

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Speaker 1: of behaviors that comprise over parenting, as I call it

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Speaker 1: in my book title, um, and they are these. The

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Speaker 1: overprotective parent is the first type. This is the parent

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Speaker 1: who feels the world is scary and unsafe and unpredictable,

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Speaker 1: which is sort of true, and this is the parent's mistake,

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Speaker 1: and therefore I must prevent and protect at all times

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Speaker 1: instead of preparing my kid to be strong and thriving

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Speaker 1: out there. This is the parent who wants to prepare

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Speaker 1: the road for the child instead of to prepare the

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Speaker 1: child for the road. Okay, well, wants to bubble wrap

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Speaker 1: the kids. Every existence has to know at all times,

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Speaker 1: where is my kid, how are they doing? GPS tracking

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Speaker 1: them on technology and all that. Okay. That's the overprotective type,

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Speaker 1: which ends up raising a child who ends up raising

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Speaker 1: a child who is afraid of strangers, who doesn't know

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Speaker 1: how to be anywhere alone, who who's Who's sort of

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Speaker 1: on this leash constantly held by the parent. Okay. The

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Speaker 1: second type is the overdirective parent, a k a. The

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Speaker 1: tiger type, which I'm here to say is not limited

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Speaker 1: to Chinese Americans or Indian Americans or whoever you want

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Speaker 1: to limit it to, is not I've seen black folks

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Speaker 1: and white folks and Jewish people and all kinds of people.

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Speaker 1: Tiger parenting. This is the I know best what leads

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Speaker 1: to success, kid, and you will do as I say.

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Speaker 1: You will be a doctor, you will go into finance. Okay.

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Speaker 1: This is the parent who is certain you will be

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Speaker 1: a tennis star. You know, Andrea Agrassy's dad was a

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Speaker 1: tiger dad. You know, you will live the life I

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Speaker 1: intend for you to live. And oh, by the way,

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Speaker 1: maybe my love for you might be conditioned upon your success. Acute,

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Speaker 1: my plans for your life. Okay. And those students, those

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Speaker 1: young people end up, you know, at some point having

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Speaker 1: a breakdown, like God, damn it, I'm gonna have my

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Speaker 1: own life, thank you very much. Okay. The third type

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Speaker 1: is the handholder for the concierge. This is the parent

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Speaker 1: who wants to wake the kid up, keep track of

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Speaker 1: their deadlines, keep track of their belongings, bring them any

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Speaker 1: forgotten stuff. This is me, This is me, this is me.

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Speaker 1: And you're in Hollywood, right You're you're an actor, you

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Speaker 1: you know. I imagine in that Miliea, You've got all

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Speaker 1: kinds of people who get credits at the end of

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Speaker 1: the show for helping out right there there, to bring

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Speaker 1: you stuff and remind you of stuff and tell you

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Speaker 1: what's next. Right, children don't need that. Okay, they got

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Speaker 1: to wake their own ass. But children don't, okay, And

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Speaker 1: so this is the parent who just loves being needed

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Speaker 1: and useful. Okay, our kid has to remember to bring

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Speaker 1: their own stuff to school, and one of the best

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Speaker 1: ways to remember is to feel the sting of having

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Speaker 1: forgotten when they get the zero in fourth grade because

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Speaker 1: they didn't turn in their homework. There's actually no better

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Speaker 1: way to teach that brain. Oh my goodness, I need

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Speaker 1: a better plan or a plan for remember bring my homework,

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Speaker 1: my sporting equipment, my lunch, my coat. Okay. If the

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Speaker 1: parent always rescues, the kid's brain never learns. All the

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Speaker 1: kid's brain learns is a parent will always rescue me, which, hey,

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Speaker 1: by the way, isn't true. I mean in some ways

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Speaker 1: my messages, Hey, parents will be dead one day, so

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Speaker 1: you have to instill skills in your kids so that

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Speaker 1: they can survive when you're gone. I mean that is

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Speaker 1: the cold, hard, twitter length, tweet length truth of this. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: this is serious. But those are the three types a

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Speaker 1: person can be doing one, two, or all three. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm definitely three, probably a mixture of one in three

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Speaker 1: and then I'm only in this for sixteen months, but

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Speaker 1: I got the writing of them all. I'm twoining three.

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Speaker 1: By the way, I want to make sure everyone knows

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Speaker 1: I am. Here are two and three? Oh see. I

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Speaker 1: I could never tell him what to do, but I

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Speaker 1: would be like, oh, you want to try this, Let's

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Speaker 1: try this and throw everything I have at this, and

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Speaker 1: then try that. And you forgot this, Let me pick

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Speaker 1: it up for you. I'll wake you up. What do

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Speaker 1: you need to eat? Like? It's just gonna be mm hmmm,

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Speaker 1: not great. Um, you've set a unique perspective not only

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Speaker 1: is a mother and a person out in the world,

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Speaker 1: but from your experience in academia, which we've touched on

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Speaker 1: and being the dean at Stanford UM working with college freshman,

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Speaker 1: how have you seen kids and young adults change over

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Speaker 1: the years In the years that I've been tracking this problem, UM,

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Speaker 1: which I would say started around UM became the dean

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Speaker 1: in two thousand two, wrote my first op ed on

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Speaker 1: the subject. In oh five, things got really much worse

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Speaker 1: with the smartphone, and oh seven I left Stanford to

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Speaker 1: go back to school to try to develop the chops

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Speaker 1: to write a book that came out in So. I've

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Speaker 1: been looking at this for a long time, and I

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Speaker 1: am not a researcher, so I haven't studied this, uh

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Speaker 1: in any empirical way. Um, but I do rely on

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Speaker 1: the work of psychologists who are studying the effects of

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Speaker 1: helicopter parenting. Things are getting worse more and more. It is.

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Speaker 1: It is common play now in many communities for parents

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Speaker 1: to be so involved in homework. They're kind of sort

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Speaker 1: of doing the homework sometimes. Okay, schools know it, but

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Speaker 1: they just don't know how to stop it in parents

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Speaker 1: and say, I have to do the homework because if

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Speaker 1: I don't do some of my kids homework, my kid

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Speaker 1: is competing in class with every other kids parents. You know.

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Speaker 1: In other words, right, so, um, kids are accustomed to parents,

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Speaker 1: um knowing everything about their lives at all times. The

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Speaker 1: researcher Gene Twangy says, gen Z, which is the generation

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Speaker 1: behind you millennials. Um, these are young people today, as

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Speaker 1: old as nineteen. She says, they're more likely to be

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Speaker 1: out of the house without a parent. Um, sorry, more

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Speaker 1: likely to be out of the house with a parent

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Speaker 1: than you were or gen xers were, or boomers were.

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Speaker 1: They're more likely to be inside the house with a

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Speaker 1: parent than you were or older people were. In other words,

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Speaker 1: they're never alone, and so they're adulting later, and in

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Speaker 1: some ways there are benefits. They're drinking later, they're driving later,

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Speaker 1: they're having sex later. They're basically attended like dogs on

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Speaker 1: a leash at all times. Okay, so they are growing

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Speaker 1: up more slowly, and while there are some benefits to that,

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Speaker 1: the risky behaviors I just mentioned, what they're not developing

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Speaker 1: alongside of this is skills like how to be home

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Speaker 1: alone and feel okay and feel like you can handle,

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Speaker 1: you know, things that might arise, how to how to

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Speaker 1: make a meal for yourself, how to take public trams,

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Speaker 1: hole down a job like you know, when you're a

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Speaker 1: babysitter it in your teen's like I was, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was hosting in a restaurant in sixteen, you know,

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Speaker 1: like I was doing stuff. That's right. So let's pause

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Speaker 1: here and say because you just made a really important

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Speaker 1: point that I don't want to overlook, which is the

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Speaker 1: problem we're talking about is largely a function of affluence.

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Speaker 1: Parents who have time and money on their hands, are

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Speaker 1: using it to cultivate every moment of childhood and to

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Speaker 1: constantly be there. A parent who's working class, are poor,

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Speaker 1: doesn't have the time to spend hover ring over their

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Speaker 1: child's every moment. Okay, so there's this wonderful irony that

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Speaker 1: I saw as dean. My students who came from what

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Speaker 1: we would call disadvantaged backgrounds um actually had a tray

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Speaker 1: in their tool kit. As I say in the book,

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Speaker 1: that they're more affluent counterparts lacked. They had a clearer

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Speaker 1: sense of self. They had a clear sense of I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm the one who's obligated to handle this. I've got

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Speaker 1: to think through my situation and come up with, you know, solutions.

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Speaker 1: They were more self reliant and they were more resilient. Now,

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Speaker 1: I'm not trying to romanticize poverty or struggle, but I

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Speaker 1: am here to say, if you emerge from that environment

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Speaker 1: and get to college, because you've had a great teacher,

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Speaker 1: to a great mentor too who helped see you through

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Speaker 1: from a difficult childhood to that for your college, you

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Speaker 1: have a set of skills your more affluent peers lack.

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Speaker 1: And that's a beautiful thing. So the question is, when

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Speaker 1: we're raising kids amid affluence and influence. How do we

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Speaker 1: instill in our kids that work ethic, that sense of

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Speaker 1: account ability and responsibility that other kids learned the hard

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Speaker 1: way because their childhood was harder. You know, I remember

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Speaker 1: this my dad. I mean amazingly, I went to school

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Speaker 1: for drama, which even that in it of itself, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure a lot of parents would have been like hell no. Um.

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Speaker 1: And it was amazing that he was cool with me

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Speaker 1: majoring in drama. And but the day I graduated was

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Speaker 1: the day. And it to even get that far was

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Speaker 1: crazy because he had supported me until I was twenty one,

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Speaker 1: which there are many people that do not get that. Um.

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Speaker 1: So I had his support financially until I was twenty one.

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Speaker 1: And my graduation day he said, good luck, you're at zero.

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Speaker 1: How amazing that you're not at a negative And um,

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Speaker 1: I've paid for your education, and now your rent is

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Speaker 1: due on the first every month that your apartment. Here

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Speaker 1: is your cell phone bill, and you're so lucky that

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Speaker 1: I'm going to cover your health insurance till you're twenty six.

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Speaker 1: But you're done. And I lost my it had a

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Speaker 1: panic attack. But I have to say it's the greatest

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Speaker 1: gift he gave me because he didn't have to do that.

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Speaker 1: He totally could have kept paying for my life. And

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Speaker 1: I could have cried and gone I was never gonna

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Speaker 1: be homeless. I could have gone home and I could

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Speaker 1: have given up. But I got three wagers in jobs

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Speaker 1: and babysitting gigs and catering gigs. And it was the

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Speaker 1: first time I had to work that hard in my life,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like it was and it

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Speaker 1: was so uh and it was really hard to be

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Speaker 1: in to to fight to to prove myself to be

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Speaker 1: an actor. But I have to say, I have so

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Speaker 1: many friends in their thirties, Julie whose parents are still

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Speaker 1: paying their rent. I Am not fucking kidding you. And

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Speaker 1: that is um again, such privilege speaking and not everyone

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Speaker 1: gets that, but there there, I just I can't even

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Speaker 1: believe that. I like, at that time, I would have

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Speaker 1: never thanked my dad. I was so like what But

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Speaker 1: it was the best lesson at twenty one, Like get

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Speaker 1: a job. You're lucky I paid for you for this long,

390
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 1: Like that's crazy. And I had summer jobs and I

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Speaker 1: had a little bit of savings, but you know, just

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Speaker 1: was like and now you're an adult. So, um, this

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Speaker 1: is beautiful, and it's beautiful to hear you say this

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Speaker 1: as a millennial. And I want to acknowledge that millennials,

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Speaker 1: many of them, graduated into the worst economy we had

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Speaker 1: seen since the Great Depression, and that set a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of people back. We're not here to bash a

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Speaker 1: whole generation. Um, No, there was no jobs for people.

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Speaker 1: It was dark. That said, if there are thirty year

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Speaker 1: olds whose parents are still paying their rent, unless it's

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Speaker 1: an incredibly wealthy family, they can set set up that

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Speaker 1: thirty year old, you know, to have some guaranteed income

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Speaker 1: for life once the parents are gone. Awesome, But that

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Speaker 1: that refers to like one percent or even point one

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Speaker 1: percent of the people, right, everyone else has to figure

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Speaker 1: out how to earn a living, how to pay their bills.

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Speaker 1: You get to decide how you want to earn a living.

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Speaker 1: You get to decide where you live so that the

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Speaker 1: living you earn can pay the bills. Right, cost of

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Speaker 1: living is really different in layer the Bay Area versus

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Speaker 1: say somewhere in Colorado where it might be more affordable,

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Speaker 1: or somewhere in New Mexico or somewhere in Texas. What

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Speaker 1: have you? Right? But You've got to make the choices

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Speaker 1: such that you can lead your own life and fend

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Speaker 1: for yourself. That's what adult ing is. It's being able

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Speaker 1: to fend for yourself. And it's not always pretty and

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Speaker 1: it's not always easy. But when you are fending, Boy,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it feel good After you've gotten over your you know,

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Speaker 1: anguish and anger at your dad and you started to

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Speaker 1: make your way. Oh my god, there's pride that you take.

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Speaker 1: Like I'm paying for this apartment. I'm renting an apartment.

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Speaker 1: I just made myself dinner, you know, I just got

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Speaker 1: myself on three buses to this job. Like there's a

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Speaker 1: tremendous sense of accomplishment we actually gain when we do

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Speaker 1: for ourselves. In contrast, when we're always held un a leash,

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Speaker 1: when someone's always handling things, we grow anxious and depressed

427
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,399
Speaker 1: because essentially our own self is not doing the work

428
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,360
Speaker 1: of living a life, and so the psyche knows something's

429
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 1: not right here. You know what's funny, I probably, looking

430
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,920
Speaker 1: back on it, I bet if my dad had not

431
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,679
Speaker 1: done that, he wouldn't want to hear this. If my

432
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 1: dad hadn't done that, I probably would have. You know,

433
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 1: I moved across the country, which was a big deal

434
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 1: for me as a you know, fourth generation New Yorker.

435
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,159
Speaker 1: I moved to l a Um against my parents wishes,

436
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 1: but because I knew I could, because I had always

437
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,359
Speaker 1: been paying you know, I moved at twenty five because

438
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,439
Speaker 1: I had had three years under my belt paying my

439
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 1: rent and I knew I could. But if my dad

440
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 1: was still paying for me in New York, I don't

441
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 1: think I ever would have left. And then I would

442
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 1: have never met my husband, and I would have never

443
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: booked Scandal if I wouldn't be fan growing out right

444
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 1: now watched on Scandal. I can't believe it, and that's

445
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,959
Speaker 1: so bad that I left. So sorry, dad, it's all

446
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 1: your faults anyway, Um, that's fault. So can I say

447
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 1: I know you? Well? Ask me your next question. I

448
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 1: have a set of a method please kids, skills that

449
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 1: I want to kind of get out if I could

450
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 1: pop please, because I want to move from this. Teach

451
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 1: me all the ways to like we're messing up our kids.

452
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: That's what's great about this book. There is a lot

453
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, practical, How do I do this? How

454
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 1: do I agreise an adult who's gonna be able to

455
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 1: take care of himself, and right now, it's just about

456
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,639
Speaker 1: my kid wiping his own butt. But you know, okay,

457
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 1: so wiping his own butt is the perfect example. Okay,

458
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 1: He's got to learn everything from wiping his butt to

459
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,360
Speaker 1: crossing a street to earning a living, okay, And you're

460
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: supposed to teach him those things, but not do those

461
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,719
Speaker 1: things for him. So the first thing I'm gonna say is,

462
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 1: we think in communities like yours and mind, I bet

463
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,159
Speaker 1: in many of the communities represented by the listeners to

464
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 1: the podcast, we think that childhood today is about to

465
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: get him into the right preschool, in the right high school,

466
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 1: in the right college, like you said at the top

467
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 1: of the show. And we do all this enriching to

468
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 1: make sure they're going to look good on paper, to

469
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 1: impress somebody who's gonna admit them to something. And we've

470
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: totally overlooked two important things. According to the longest study

471
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: of humans ever conducted, the thing that predicts whether someone

472
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: is professionally successful in life is what did they do

473
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 1: chores as a child? Professional success in life. You want

474
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 1: to be successful, you got do chores or part time

475
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: job in high school? Why? Because these things teach you

476
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: to have a work ethic, roll up your sleeves, pitch

477
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: and be useful, don't wait to be served. Ask yourself,

478
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 1: how can I contribute my effort to making this situation better?

479
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: Chores or part time job? Okay, this is now my

480
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: mouth is completely a gap, and it's similar but different.

481
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: I say to everybody. Everybody should have to wait tables.

482
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,239
Speaker 1: Everybody should work in the service industry. Everybody, at some

483
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: point in their life should have to serve people, whether

484
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: it's food, whether it's clothing, whatever that is. That's right.

485
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: I don't know why I believe that, but I believe that.

486
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,640
Speaker 1: So if you did it, and you know it taught

487
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 1: you really valuable things to help you get ahead. And

488
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: you know, one the hard work I learned in the

489
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: service industry is the exact same hard work I learned

490
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 1: to try to be an actor. And I was a lawyer.

491
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: Before I was a writer and a dean. I was

492
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: a lawyer and I was a bus girl at a

493
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,400
Speaker 1: restaurant called Perkins in Wisconsin, one of these twenty four

494
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: hour you know, rest wanes where you can eat anything

495
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 1: on the menu at any time to day. And I

496
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: was a bus girl, which meant I had to clean

497
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: the tables, and I had a mop and clean the

498
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: bathrooms nice hopefully, you know, I washed my hands in between.

499
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 1: And I'm telling you that sort of sense of what

500
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: what's the how can I go the extra mile here

501
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: so that you know, maybe my boss gives me a

502
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: slightly more elevated task. That mentality I brought into the

503
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 1: law firm when I was a young lawyer. You know,

504
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: how can I be useful? The big lawyers are doing

505
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 1: the important stuff. I'm the tiny little lawyer. How can

506
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: I be useful here? How can I make their task easier?

507
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: So chores? How early do we start them? And what

508
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: are they? Well? On pages this is a great book

509
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 1: I recommend, which I know you're familiar with, called How

510
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 1: to Raise an Adult And it on page one sixty

511
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: six to one sight is the chores list and starting

512
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 1: as young as two. So you got about I've got

513
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: four months. Chores are happening. Yeah, he's sixteen months. Oh no,

514
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: what is that? Terrible at math? Thank you did bad math?

515
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,719
Speaker 1: I'm terrible that I dropped out of math in junior

516
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: of high school. Okay, So there's chores that for kids

517
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: as young as too. There in the book it's broken

518
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: down two to three, four to five, six and seven

519
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 1: what they can do. And you'll be astonished at what

520
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 1: kids at that age are supposed to be able to do.

521
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 1: And by the way, in many other cultures that they

522
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: do kids are doing without anyone batting an eeleft. Can

523
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: you give us like one example, because it blew my

524
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: mind in the book you said, like a ten year old,

525
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: like in Switzerland ten year olds or like baby like

526
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 1: stuff in America we would never do. Come on, I'm

527
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 1: fifty one and I babysat when I was ten, all right,

528
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 1: Like what's happened? You know what's really weird? Kids don't

529
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: babysit at that age anymore, right, because we think it's unsafe.

530
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: It's not allowed to be home alone until you hear

531
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: these horror stories about moms getting going to jail and

532
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,239
Speaker 1: like getting their kids taken away from them. Be alone. Right,

533
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 1: But then there are some states that still have old

534
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: laws on the book that said, oh, you can marry

535
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: without your parents consent at sixteen. So there are states

536
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: that literally will say not you can't be home alone

537
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 1: till your twelve, but you can marry without concett at

538
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: six four years to kind of get it all figured out,

539
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: all right. It shows just how the past is out

540
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: of touch with the present. Okay, here's an example of

541
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: a chore um for two to three year old. Uh,

542
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: this is your this is the age when your child

543
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: will start to learn basic life skills. Caveat if you

544
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: let them all right, I like dressing himself or herself

545
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: with some help from you, putting their clothes in the

546
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: hamper when they undress, clearing their plate after meals. And

547
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: I know you're like, what, my two year old can't

548
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: clear their plate. Yeah, they can't. Give them a plastic plate.

549
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: Don't be feeding your two year old on china that

550
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: you're afraid it's going to drop to the floor and

551
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: gas utensils, and say, okay, we all clear our plates,

552
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: and your little one will learn to do it. And

553
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,120
Speaker 1: the best thing is if you start young, they don't complain.

554
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: They like to be useful. It just becomes part of

555
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: the way the family works. Whereas if, like me, you

556
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 1: don't realize chores are important until they're like ten or twelve,

557
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: believe me, they'll be like, why what do you want

558
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: us to start helping I mean, we haven't been helping

559
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: you so far. Why does this matter? Okay, So chores

560
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: are are really essential. The other thing the study showed

561
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: is that happiness in life comes from from from loving

562
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: relationships with other humans. Okay, so our kids need to

563
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,959
Speaker 1: be loved unconditionally at home. Not loved as a function

564
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: of how well they did on a test today or

565
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: what college they get into tomorrow, but just loved for

566
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: who they are, whatever their interests are. Love the heck

567
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: out of that kid. Help that kid become who they are.

568
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 1: Don't act like you wish your kid with someone else.

569
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 1: I mean, that's what the tiger type is doing. Right.

570
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: I love you if you'll go to med school. Right.

571
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: I don't love you if you're an artist. Please don't

572
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: do that, right. Okay, So they have to be loved

573
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 1: at home. So this unconditional love at home plus chores

574
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,959
Speaker 1: is probably the foundational and food and shelter, you know,

575
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: the foundational things they need to experience so that they

576
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: can leave our homes and thrive out in the real world. Okay.

577
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: So now what I want to share is the fourth

578
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: step method for teaching any kid any skill. This is

579
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: on my website. People can follow up. I've got some

580
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,959
Speaker 1: swag with little things that spell this out. Okay, this

581
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: is the four step method. Whatever it is, like, make

582
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,719
Speaker 1: a meal, take public transportation, cross the street, track your

583
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: own deadlines, you know, fill out your own forms, whatever

584
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: the skill. Here's the fourth step method. First you do

585
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: it for them, Second you do it with them, Third,

586
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: you watch them do it, and fourth they can do

587
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: it completely on their own. And it's that pivotal we're

588
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: stuck in steps one and two if we're overparenting. We're

589
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: doing it for them okay, or with them with them,

590
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 1: but they're not learning because we're doing all the work.

591
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: They're just sort of they're right. Step three is the

592
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: big terrifying shift. You watch them do it. You're still there,

593
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: but they get to do it, and you have to

594
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: try not to micromanage every single piece. You're giving them

595
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: some feedback if there's anything disastrous happening. You're there to say, hey,

596
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: wait a minute, you know, let's turn down that step

597
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: right right, all right, but you're so you're there, and

598
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,239
Speaker 1: then finally you do step three enough times you can

599
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: move to step four where your kid can cross the

600
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: street one day, not at age two, but maybe at

601
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: age seven or maybe at age ten, whatever it's appropriate.

602
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: Your neighborhood, you know, but at some point a kid

603
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: has learned across the street, and I'm must parenting fail

604
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: if we don't teach some of these basic things. This

605
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: is Um. Do you think, as me completely celfish and

606
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: mom to a toddler that these um, you know, I'm

607
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: not really focused on school or grades and college stuff now,

608
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: although I did look at way too many preschools. Um,

609
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: what's the overparenting trap at this stage? Is it like

610
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: what we talked about, like not letting him do chores

611
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: at two years old, or and those little things we

612
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: talked about, like your clothes. Here's an example, um, when

613
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: they're sticking. It's so that I'm I'm just all of

614
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: a sudden conjuring the image of my two kids at

615
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: that age, which is thank you for allowing me that

616
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: trip down memory lane, my two our nineteen and seventeen

617
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: years old. Um, so it's been a long time. But

618
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: here's an example. When you're a little sixteen month old

619
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: is playing with some awesome new toy that you know

620
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: Grandpa sent from New York and it's a shape s

621
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: order or I don't remember sure, right, but right there's

622
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: a shape they're supposed to put blocks into a thing

623
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: that has holes for the block. Part of you wants

624
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: to tell them exactly how to do it, you know,

625
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: kind of nudge the right shape to them. You know.

626
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: Part of right, you're raising your hand, right, because I

627
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: don't have the patience to like worried about that he's

628
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: not going to figure it out. No, it's like, let's

629
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:20,479
Speaker 1: just get this. The patience is, yeah, let's get this done. Right.

630
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: That's an example like back away, shut up, yeah, yeah, yeah, stop.

631
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 1: You know, let your kids figure stuff out on his own.

632
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: You're right there, you're on the couch, maybe you're down

633
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: on the ground and you're playing with your own thing.

634
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: You don't have to be all up in it, right,

635
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: it's sort of one step removed at at at sixteen months,

636
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: two years. You know, you want to be a few

637
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: feet away, Okay, when they're five years old, you want

638
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: to be in the next room. Okay, when they're ten,

639
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: maybe you can be outside of the house so they

640
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: could be inside the you know, like we're constantly allowing

641
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: greater distance so that they grow comfortable without us. Yea,

642
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: they can try different things without us being there having

643
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: to handles for them. The other great thing that spoke

644
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: to me so much in your book was how you

645
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: speak to your child, getting that shape in the shape sorder,

646
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: when you're like, yeah, you did it. You're so special

647
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: for everything, which I'm convinced is why I'm an actor

648
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: because my parents I really had that growing up. You're

649
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: the most special, You're the greatest. That's the millennial thing, right, like,

650
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: you're the greatest, You're the most special. The world is

651
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: your oyster. You can have it all. You're gonna be

652
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:31,239
Speaker 1: the best moment of the world, and you're gonna be

653
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: so successful and blah blah blah blah ba um, my kid,

654
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: I just I my I'm married to an actor. Were

655
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: very expressive and very big, and so everything is like

656
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: that was amazing. My friends are doing that too. This

657
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: is not good, right, it's not good. It's not good

658
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: in part because they really expect that life will have

659
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: that soundtrack always. So they leave your let's say you

660
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: talk like that for a teens and then they go

661
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: out into the real world and they're in the workplace

662
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: or the army or college, and there's nobody doing that anymore,

663
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: and so they're little psyche goes, Oh what what what?

664
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: Why am I not amazing anymore because we've we've sort

665
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: of made amazing, we've basically watered down amazing and perfect

666
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: and acted like they're going to hear those terms at

667
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: all times. So the enthusiasm is great. I mean, I

668
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: don't think there's anything wrong with the enthusiasm. But see

669
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: if you can use something like, um, that's a picture,

670
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: that's an awesome picture instead of you're perfect, you're amazing,

671
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, you know. Yeah, I think that's right, Yes, yes, yes.

672
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: The problem that we're talking about with whatever age, like

673
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: this whole overparenting. I think you said in the book,

674
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: like you even see parents all the time on campus,

675
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: you would see parents all the time. How do you

676
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: think that this problem is You've touched on it a

677
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: little bit, But how do you think this problem is

678
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: translating in to the world of these millennials and these

679
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: these gen xer is like going on to getting jobs

680
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: or not getting jobs or what do you think is happening? Um?

681
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: I have two examples, three examples, I have nineteen examples.

682
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: I have a thousand examples. Um, in the workplace, how

683
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: this translates. Basically, if you're over parenting, you can never

684
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:26,240
Speaker 1: stop your you're fostering a dependence on yourself right instead

685
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 1: of fostering independence. So it becomes this thing that just

686
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: reinforces itself. Well, my kids incapable because I've never talked

687
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: them anything, So now I have to continue to help

688
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: them at twelve and eighteen and twenty five and so on.

689
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 1: So in the workplace, if you've been over parenting all

690
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: the way through college, you're gonna over parent in the workplace.

691
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 1: You're gonna send out your kids, resume. Your kids going

692
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: to get a call to be offered a job, or

693
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: not a job, but an interview, and the kid's gonna say, what,

694
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: I don't think I applied. Well, that's because mom handled

695
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: that for you. Okay, You show up for an interview

696
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: and mom or dad is there to prep you for

697
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: the interview, not realizing that they're being observed in the

698
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: lobby of this of this business, and they can see

699
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: that this twenty two year old doesn't appear to have

700
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 1: the skills to prep for his or her own interview.

701
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: Mom or dad is there, Um, oh my god, is

702
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 1: this really happening. Parents are calling up emplawyers saying why

703
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: didn't you give my child child? Why didn't you give

704
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: my child a raise, why didn't you give them a

705
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: bigger bonus? And I think any employer worth their salt replies,

706
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: because it's you calling me, not your kid. And if

707
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: your kids showed one tenth the amount of initiative you're showing,

708
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: maybe i'd be interested in them. Right, So we're the

709
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: over help continues. Here are the two examples that first

710
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: came to mind. I got a call from a reporter

711
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: at Washington monthly magazine kind of a society magazine, I

712
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: think in the DC area, and they said, we're doing

713
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: an article on the fact that Washington, d c. Divorce

714
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: lawyers are seeing a huge uptick in the number of

715
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: thirty somethings who show up for a divorce consultation with

716
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: their parents into What do you make of that? All

717
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: had the same me. I just called you Quinn. Sorry, Oh,

718
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: I love it. It's great. Qui's my middle name, it's perfect.

719
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: So right, so I got to bring my parents and

720
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: come talk to a lawyer about the fact that I

721
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,439
Speaker 1: might need a divorce. Right, Well, maybe that hold fact

722
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: that you're totally still dependent upon your parent is part

723
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 1: of the problem. Another example, The New York Times called

724
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 1: me the real estate section called me. They said, we

725
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: have parents who are showing up at co ops meeting

726
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: with the co op board on behalf of their adult

727
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: child quote unquote who doesn't live in New York but

728
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: wants to get a place to live in New York.

729
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: The parents are finding the place, they're meeting with the

730
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: co op board, They're doing the work. And you know,

731
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: I said, it's great when people have enough time and

732
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: money that they can do that, But when will that

733
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,439
Speaker 1: adult child be made to figure out how to get

734
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: an apartment or a place to live on their own?

735
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: Because one day they'll have to do it for themselves.

736
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 1: And are we going to wait until they're fifty or

737
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: six and their own parents finally passes on and then

738
00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 1: they literally are bewildered having to do these regular old

739
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: day to day tasks of adulthood. Wow? Can I a

740
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: personal question? Are both are both kids out of the

741
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: house now? Both of your kids? I have a sophomore

742
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: in college and a senior in high school. So when

743
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: the sophomore left, did you feel so triumphant to have

744
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: to have raised a person who is now like independent

745
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: of you or you like my mom was a disaster,

746
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: Like when we left which is the other thing, you know,

747
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: I think, like again a millennial. My mom was home

748
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: with my my brother and I. We've talked about this

749
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: a lot on the podcast, but you know, just her

750
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: choice was that was her full time job, and it

751
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: was really really interesting to watch her go through when

752
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: she did such a great job that she raised two

753
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: kids who were like, by we're gone. But she was like,

754
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: oh wait, wait, wait, wait, wait wait what so this

755
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 1: is actually feel It's a lovely question. So I, um,

756
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: this is how I felt. I turned to my usband

757
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: and I said, no one told me it would be

758
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: this hard. And I laughed, right, because here I am

759
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 1: the Dan who worked with all these other people's kids,

760
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: and I've been on the other side. I've been on

761
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: the receiving end at the university, seeing all these parent

762
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: child interactions on moving day, I thought I'd be able

763
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: to handle it, but instead I was a wreck. And

764
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: I actually wrote a piece about it about how my

765
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: own emotion just sort of bewildered me, as when I

766
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: were fighting in Ikea about does he need this pillor

767
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: or this pillar or this bookcase or this bookcase. Right,

768
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: we were there to outfit his room as many overparenting

769
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: people do because it's like this is our last chance

770
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: to influence his environment. And um, so I was a

771
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 1: wreck and unprepared for how much I would miss him.

772
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: This is the upside of how close we are to

773
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: our kids, um, in contrast to how I, as a

774
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: gen x or was raised. For example, you know when

775
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 1: when we show up at every game and every practice

776
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: and we know exactly what classes they're taking and who

777
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 1: all their teachers are, and we know every assignment. We're close.

778
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,919
Speaker 1: There's a closeness that you know, as an emotional positive thing,

779
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 1: it can just really end up undermining them if we're

780
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: so close that we're living their life for them. So um,

781
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: I I found it to be a bit of a

782
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: shock when my eldest left. And I think your your

783
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 1: premise and that question was you know where you you know,

784
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: how did you feel about letting somebody go off to

785
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: be independent? I mean it begs the question was the

786
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: independent was he capable of being independentis nineteen? I think

787
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: we're still seeing Yeah, you're seeing old and he's doing

788
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: a lot of hashtag adulting and then there's a lot

789
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: of stuff he's still figuring out. Um. The other thing

790
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: I want to point out is because I think embedded

791
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: in the question is you know how we parents feel

792
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: about all this and are the truth of the matter

793
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:42,919
Speaker 1: is our egos, yours, Katie mine, many people listening our

794
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: egos these days are kind of a bit too much

795
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: wrapped up in our kids existence. So when our sixteen

796
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: month old is talking, you know, more eloquently than the others,

797
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: we feel like, wow, look at my child, Look what

798
00:39:55,120 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 1: I've done? Are so stupid? The right? Okay, undergarten, that's

799
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: like a badge of honor for us. We crave the

800
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: bumper sticker for the back of our car that says

801
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: the name of the private school or the independent school

802
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: they've gotten into, or the college they've gotten into. Right,

803
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: we need that. What I'm saying is our egos. It's like,

804
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: so we don't want them to leave, and that's why

805
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: parents like but you know, that's why we see that.

806
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 1: We just saw the New York Times recently, Mom accompanying

807
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: son to the campus where he's a football recruit, and

808
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 1: the sun dresses up in the uniform to show that,

809
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: you know, he's signed with this school, and Mom is

810
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 1: wearing the football uniform of a different with the helmet right,

811
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: it's like get a life, Like, like get a life,

812
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: because you're not on a football team, right, not your life.

813
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: This is your kid's life, and you're actually usurping the

814
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 1: autonomy that he ought to have. In that moment, you're

815
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,720
Speaker 1: acting as if, of course you love him, of course

816
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: you're a booster. Of course you're going to root for

817
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: him to make every yard and get every touchdown and

818
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 1: every backle Okay, but he's a football player, not you.

819
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: Stop acting like his life is yours, right. It's I

820
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: felt such a relief from your book of like, you know,

821
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 1: I'm a working mom and I I've had to really

822
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: dig deep when it's gotten hard, and I didn't want

823
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: to leave him or was going to miss a bunch

824
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: of you know, I was on Broadway this summer and

825
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 1: I only put him to bed one night a week

826
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: and it was really really hard. And my friends, my

827
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: support group around me and my mom were like, you know,

828
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: you're showing him what that looks like? How cool that

829
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: is that you're a woman, you're doing this and he's

830
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: important to you, but your job is also important to you.

831
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: And um, I just we talk a lot about keeping

832
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,720
Speaker 1: your own self filled. Um and maybe that will help

833
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 1: with your not being as involved in your kids, but

834
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: maybe not. I don't know. Absolutely absolutely, Oh, you see

835
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: that a lot in your book, like your your own happiness,

836
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: right is just like you being a happy person, you know,

837
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: like we've talked about on Troy and episode. But like

838
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: you fill up your mask on the bear plane first

839
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 1: and then yeah, so that's you know that that airplane

840
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: metaphor works, right, Put your own oxygen mask on first

841
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 1: before helping others. Why Because that's the only way you

842
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: can actually be of used to others is when you're

843
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: being oxygen eated. Okay, Um, if we could model for

844
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: our kids that we take pleasure in our work, that

845
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 1: we take pleasure in our hard work, in our activities,

846
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: are hobbies, that we have relationships that are important to us,

847
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: whether it's our primary relationship or friendships or what have you,

848
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: extended things like our kids need to see that. I

849
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 1: think one of the reasons we have this sort of

850
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: quote unquote failed to launch problem with some millennials is

851
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: we parents of millennials. I'm not one, but older people

852
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: have made adulthood look very unattractive because all we seem

853
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: to do is worry constantly about children all the time,

854
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: and so we're supposed to be role modeling what a healthy,

855
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: vibrant adult life looks like and for somebody like you

856
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: and someone like me. I mean, I'm not an actress.

857
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 1: I'm not on Broadway. I just travel a lot with

858
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: my books. I'm constantly traveling somewhere with these books, which

859
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: is awesome. What I've got to do and what you've

860
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: got to do, and parents of all genders listening got

861
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: to do. When you're busy with your work, you have

862
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 1: to find moments to pull that kid aside, create some

863
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: special rituals, you know, so it's not just that you're

864
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: there once a week when when he's older, you know,

865
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: beyond you know, when he's five and he's seven, you know,

866
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,919
Speaker 1: for you to say, we need some special mom son

867
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 1: time and we're gonna go, what do you want to

868
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: do and develop a ritual. I had a ritual with

869
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,800
Speaker 1: my son where we'd go to Baskin Robbins ten minutes

870
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: away and we would read the Magic Treehouse books, which

871
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: is a great love for young kids, right and we

872
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: would read out loud. I would you know, he was

873
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:46,879
Speaker 1: of course reading, he was like seven, he was reading

874
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,359
Speaker 1: by himself. Then, but he enjoyed um that I would

875
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: read it out loud to him while he ate his

876
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 1: ice cream, and um, you know this is a kid

877
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: who doesn't enjoy Baskin Robbins. Right. Well, I was trying

878
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: not to eat the scream, of course, but I thought, well,

879
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:02,720
Speaker 1: I'm with my son, so I can have some scream.

880
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:04,879
Speaker 1: But if it came this thing, we called it Mommy

881
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: Sawyer time. And um, you know, I really try to

882
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: show up for my daughter in ways that really matter

883
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 1: to her. I mean, she and I have these shopping

884
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: It sounds so stereotypical. I'm not a shopper. I'm like,

885
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: not a shopper. I'm not that kind of gal. Okay,

886
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: but my daughter is. So I got to be excited

887
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: about that. And you know, we will do things where

888
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: we just dive in together to um time time together.

889
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 1: That it's sort of that old quality time adage. But

890
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: it is. Your kid wants to know they matter to you.

891
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's great that they're going to see that

892
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: you're important in all these other ways in the world

893
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: and they're going to be proud of that. But they

894
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: don't ever want to feel that you've neglected them because

895
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: of that so you have to strike the right balance,

896
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: of course, and sometimes that means saying no to things

897
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 1: so that you can be home. Absolutely, I've busted my

898
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: ass to get home to my daughter. But she's a

899
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 1: dancer and she's in theater. And the times that I

900
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 1: have been on a plane, like God, this plane, if

901
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: it doesn't take off, I gotta I have occurred to

902
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: catch and I, you know, like the people who support

903
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: me in my environment, I've got speaking agent and you know,

904
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 1: an assistant, and I'll say in advance, okay, tomorrow, it

905
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 1: is essential that I get back home by this time

906
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 1: because Avery's got a thing. And if let's make sure

907
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: I'm on a plane that's gonna that has a few

908
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 1: backup options. So if that plane is not going to

909
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: take off, I got another plane that I could get on.

910
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 1: You know, yep. Going the extra mile to make sure

911
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,399
Speaker 1: you can get home. So you don't want that child down.

912
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 1: That's important. Um, A lot of parents might say, and

913
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: this would totally be me, but all my actions are

914
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 1: coming from a place of love. I just love them

915
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 1: so much, Like that's why I'm writing his college essay.

916
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 1: I also think, which I love about your book, Whether

917
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: or not you are a parent, and you think you're

918
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: whatever college they're going to go to, and you know,

919
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 1: I just think it's so it's such an opportunity to

920
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 1: go to the place you're supposed to go to if

921
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: your parents don't get involved. For example, my mom and

922
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: I helped my brother all through school. All through school.

923
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: We wanted him to go to Boston Versity want we

924
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: wanted him to be an earth science major. We get

925
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: him in. Okay, look, this kid was not meant to

926
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 1: go to the school. He hates our science. Um. We

927
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: get him into the school and he starts failing, completely

928
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: funking out. He's not supposed to be there. Yeah, not

929
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: supposed to be there and not interested, not passionate about it.

930
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: The good thing was he ended up meeting the love

931
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: of his life who is now married to there, and

932
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: his whole life changed around and he shifted majors and

933
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. But that's one example. The other is

934
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: my husband his entire life. His grandmother was the first

935
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 1: female graduating class at U n C. Chapel Hill. His

936
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 1: mom went there, his dad went there, his parents met there.

937
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: His brother and his wife also met at U n C.

938
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:40,919
Speaker 1: Adam had been in tar Heels. I don't know the stuff,

939
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 1: but tar Heels onesies since the time he was born.

940
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,280
Speaker 1: His dad is the Dean of Tourism of the school

941
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 1: at Temple University in Philly. They are academia. They love school,

942
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: they love U n C. Adam doesn't get in. It

943
00:46:55,640 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: breaks the fucking heart. Family and Adam is the Dean

944
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: of UNC calls his dad and says, I can't believe

945
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: I'm making this phone call, but your son is not

946
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 1: going to be going to our school. Yeah, here's the

947
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: good news. Adam want University of Maryland, got on the

948
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 1: sketch team, figured out he wanted to be an actor.

949
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 1: He gets to meet me because he moves to Los Angeles.

950
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 1: I mean it changed the entire course of his life.

951
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 1: He wasn't going to be an actor. He was going

952
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 1: to u n C for politics. He ended up University

953
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: of Maryland for politics, ended up joining a sketch team.

954
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 1: They were like, we think you're hilarious. You should be

955
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 1: a drama major. He moved to l A the day

956
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: he graduated University of Maryland. His life was forever changed

957
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,240
Speaker 1: because he was supposed to go to University of Maryland

958
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: and the parents couldn't they didn't have the bumper sticker on.

959
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: But I think in your book it's like so much

960
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: about it. I bet they do now. They can still

961
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 1: get one. They all of this right, It doesn't help

962
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 1: to do that stuff. I wish all of us parents

963
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 1: could just talk like, let's just all decide we're not

964
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: going to do that, which is what you are so

965
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: brilliantly trying to change and shift that we find and

966
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: support whatever our children are good at and are passionate

967
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: about innately within themselves, that we're not pushing on them,

968
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: because then ultimately they will end up wherever that is

969
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: where they're supposed to go um and not have a

970
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: breakdown or not right. And if you can't handle that,

971
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 1: if there's something in you that needs your kid to

972
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 1: be at U n C Or Temple or whatever, the

973
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: school is right, everybody's got a school in mind for

974
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 1: their kids. If you need that so badly that you're

975
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: gonna basically make it happen for your kid and they're

976
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,879
Speaker 1: just passively you know, along for the ride. You need

977
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: some therapy because you are basically saying I I will

978
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 1: not be okay unless my kid has that accolade or

979
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: that outcome. That's a problem in your own psychological space,

980
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:46,879
Speaker 1: and you need to get over that. And I say

981
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 1: that as somebody who's a Stanford grad who met my

982
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,439
Speaker 1: husband at Stanford and and worked at Stanford and gave

983
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: birth to my kids at Stanford. And I thought, of course,

984
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 1: my kids will go to Stanford. And I realized, oh

985
00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: my god, you know, I am acting as if it's

986
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,839
Speaker 1: the only place that matters, a place that's admitting five

987
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: percent of the people that apply. Why am I steering

988
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 1: my kids towards an almost certain denial, a certain failure, right,

989
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,240
Speaker 1: I'm certain failure? Like why why make why? Oh? Because

990
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: I need that so that I can impress people. Oh well,

991
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: I had to do that work on myself and get

992
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 1: over that. I'm very proud to say my son is

993
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: at read College now. I love very liberal arts college

994
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: that most people haven't heard of. But it's the right

995
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 1: place for him. And I'm you know, I think he's there.

996
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 1: It's a sophomore now, and um, I'm super proud of him.

997
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: And I have to say my daughter is going to

998
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,359
Speaker 1: be a duke next year, which I know your husband

999
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: will hate us. They fucking hate duke with all of

1000
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 1: their heart and soul. I don't know about any of this,

1001
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: but Duke was like, one last question, if you had

1002
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,799
Speaker 1: any any parting words. We are so lucky to get

1003
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 1: you any parting words of wisdom. Besides, everyone, get out

1004
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 1: and listener by this book. And I'm really not plugging

1005
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 1: it for I'm not getting paid for this people. I

1006
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 1: literally just fun love Julie and this book. What would

1007
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: you like to part with? Okay, alright, the one thing

1008
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 1: that I have to say, because you did ask a

1009
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 1: question before. Somehow we got up on this guitar heel

1010
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 1: thing you said. People say we do this because we

1011
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,919
Speaker 1: love our kids so much. Okay, Um, yes, you love

1012
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,760
Speaker 1: your kid and and to love your kid the best.

1013
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 1: What you must realize is this your job as a

1014
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: parent is to put yourself out of a job and

1015
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 1: raise your kid to be independent of you. That's how

1016
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: you win at parenting. Okay, So you love, the love

1017
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 1: never ends, but don't let the love be smothering. Don't

1018
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 1: let the love be so tightly attached to the kid

1019
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: that the kid can't get out from under you at

1020
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 1: all and developed the various skills they are going to

1021
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 1: need to have to thrive out there in the world.

1022
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:52,879
Speaker 1: So the best way to think about this is, um,

1023
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:55,800
Speaker 1: think about how much you care about your best friend's

1024
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: kid you know, or your niece or your nephew. You

1025
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 1: love that kid. Every time they have something going on,

1026
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 1: You're like, Wow, that's interesting. Tell me why you like that,

1027
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 1: Tell me what that's about for you. You ask the

1028
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 1: good questions, you take an interest, you're enthusiastic. But when

1029
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 1: they say yeah, I might be flunking chemistry, you don't

1030
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: personally feel like, oh I have to fix that, You're like, Okay, wow,

1031
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: that sounds challenging. What are you going to do about that? Okay?

1032
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: It's that loving but slightly distant approach, which is I'm here,

1033
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: I care, but ultimately, this is your path. That's what

1034
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,879
Speaker 1: prepares that kid to craft their own path, make their

1035
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 1: own way, and be successful wherever they go. Julie, I

1036
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 1: could talk to you all day, girl. You're a dream.

1037
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 1: I would love that. Cannot thank you enough for coming

1038
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: on Katie's grib and for sharing your time and expertise,

1039
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 1: and I I'm just such a fan. And I'm going

1040
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 1: to go get your memoir now too. And also I'm

1041
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 1: listening to Jonathan Heights book right coddling the American mind.

1042
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 1: And he quotes you constantly, so basically be his co writers.

1043
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 1: They do quote me all the time. If you were

1044
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: interested in the memoir, Um, it's a book on race, yes,

1045
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:12,720
Speaker 1: black and biracial in a country where black lives aren't

1046
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:16,240
Speaker 1: meant to matter. And it's a very vulnerable, prose poetry

1047
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 1: account of what it has been like to be black

1048
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,240
Speaker 1: and biracial as a fifty one year old in this America.

1049
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 1: So it's a totally different book, but it's the heart

1050
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:25,959
Speaker 1: of that book. At the heart of the other book

1051
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,280
Speaker 1: is I'm interested in the problems that impede us from thriving,

1052
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: and helicopter parenting is impeding a generation of kids, and

1053
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: racism is of course, you know this, this centuries long

1054
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 1: impediment to humans having dignity and thriving. So UM, I'd

1055
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 1: love for you to listen to that book as well.

1056
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,800
Speaker 1: I did narrate that one, as that's my next traffic.

1057
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 1: That sounds wonderful. Thank you so much, UM, with all

1058
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,879
Speaker 1: my hurt and soul, have a wonderful day you too,

1059
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: Thank you again. Thank thank you guys so much for

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Speaker 1: listening to Katie's crib and be sure to check out

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Speaker 1: Shonda land dot com, where you can find every episode

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Speaker 1: of Katie's Crib, and we've got crib notes for each

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Speaker 1: episode where you can find out more about our guests

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Speaker 1: and links to some of the resources we talked about

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Speaker 1: on the podcast. And last, but not least, subscribe. We're

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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher basically like wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcasts. Wo