WEBVTT - From the Archives: Lawrence Wright

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<v Speaker 1>This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing,

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<v Speaker 1>My chance to talk with artists, policymakers, and performers, to

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<v Speaker 1>hear their stories. What inspires their creations, what decisions change

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<v Speaker 1>their careers, what relationships influenced their work. My guest today,

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<v Speaker 1>author Lawrence Wright thinks a lot about religion. He wants

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<v Speaker 1>to know why people choose one faith over another, especially

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<v Speaker 1>when what they choose seems quote absurd or dangerous to

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<v Speaker 1>an outsider. This question has led Right to investigate some

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<v Speaker 1>of the world's most complicated and secretive organizations, from the

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<v Speaker 1>People's Temple in Jonestown to the Church of Scientology. His

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<v Speaker 1>book on Al Qaeda won the Pulitzer Prize in two

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<v Speaker 1>thousand and seven. Lawrence Wright has a unique firsthand experience

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<v Speaker 1>as to the power of belief.

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<v Speaker 2>I grew up in Dallas in the Methodist Church, and

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<v Speaker 2>it was despite the fact that Methodism doesn't have a

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<v Speaker 2>reputation as being kind of a you know, hell fire

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<v Speaker 2>and Brimstone, the first of the churches that we went

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<v Speaker 2>to in Dallas really was that, and then we graduated

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<v Speaker 2>to the Methodist Church downtown. My dad taught Sunday school

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<v Speaker 2>for many, many years. You know, Dallas back at that

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<v Speaker 2>time was the most pious city in America. We had

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<v Speaker 2>the largest Methodist, Baptist I think, the largest Episcopal church,

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<v Speaker 2>and one of the largest Catholic churches in the entire country.

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<v Speaker 2>And at the same time we had the highest murder

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<v Speaker 2>rate and the highest divorce rate, you know, all the

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<v Speaker 2>things that go along with excess piety. Yeah, so it was,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was very pious as a teenager. I was

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<v Speaker 2>in a group called Young Life.

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<v Speaker 1>And genuinely or you were responding to pressure.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I was, well, there was part of those things.

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<v Speaker 2>It was you know, I had moved around a lot,

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<v Speaker 2>as my dad was a banker and we moved quite

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<v Speaker 2>a lot, and it was hard for me to establish roots.

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<v Speaker 2>So when I got to Dallas and this, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Young Life came up. It was a social club for me.

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<v Speaker 2>But also it was the first time I understood the

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<v Speaker 2>you can binge yourself into the shape of the organization

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<v Speaker 2>the way it wants you to be. And also the

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<v Speaker 2>more pious you are, sort of the higher you climb,

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<v Speaker 2>the more important. So I got to be a part

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<v Speaker 2>of it. Yeah, well you say those things, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>and you want to believe them. I was not consciously

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<v Speaker 2>trying to deceive anyone. At the same time, you know

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<v Speaker 2>what to say, your.

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<v Speaker 1>Heart felt and you're genuine, but at the same time

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<v Speaker 1>you realize that there's a there's an approval system here. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that that experience was formative in some

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<v Speaker 2>ways for me to be so interested in religious matters

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<v Speaker 2>and why you know, I people are always, you know, reporters,

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<v Speaker 2>especially fascinated by politics. But you can have strong political

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<v Speaker 2>views and it doesn't affect your life at all, But

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<v Speaker 2>if you have strong religious views, they probably dictate much

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<v Speaker 2>of your behavior. It's puzzling to me why with most

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<v Speaker 2>journalists it's just embarrassing to ask about what people believe

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<v Speaker 2>because it's not supposed to matter.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you leave the area to go to college, did you? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>I went to Tulane in New Orleans, which was a

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<v Speaker 2>city least like Dallas that I could find, and you

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<v Speaker 2>could buy beer and woolworst and you could drink at eighteen,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, a lot of things.

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<v Speaker 1>Not very pious. The well in arts school.

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<v Speaker 2>By that time, I kind of shed that, but I

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<v Speaker 2>was actively looking for a way to live a more

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<v Speaker 2>bohemian life. I felt very constricted in Dallas.

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<v Speaker 1>Was writing something that was on your mind even at

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<v Speaker 1>an early age?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah. In college I took a creative writing class.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I was not a.

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<v Speaker 1>Distant school paper. No.

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<v Speaker 2>I used to like doing that stuff though. And then

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<v Speaker 2>after I graduated, you know, the Vietnam War was going on,

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<v Speaker 2>and I became a conscientious objector and spent two years

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<v Speaker 2>of alternative service teaching in Cairo, and that's where I

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<v Speaker 2>became involved for the first time with the Arab world.

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<v Speaker 1>And when the boy from Dallas becomes a conscientious objector,

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<v Speaker 1>how did that go off back home?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I my dad was a war hero, and

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to be like him. I was in rotc.

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<v Speaker 2>I expected, you know, to follow in his footsteps. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know, there was this parallel problem going on, which

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<v Speaker 2>was the Vietnam War, which was despicable, different war, and

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<v Speaker 2>it was a bad war. And you know, for a person,

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<v Speaker 2>a young man like me who wanted to serve his

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<v Speaker 2>country but did not want to kill people for the

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<v Speaker 2>wrong reason or risk my life for something I didn't

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<v Speaker 2>believe in, it just was a terrible My father and

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<v Speaker 2>I I had horrible, horrible fights about Vietnam.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you have any brothers.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I had two younger sisters.

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<v Speaker 1>So you were it. You were the yeah scion. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you ever make peace with them about that? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>I wrote a memoir about growing up in Dallas during

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<v Speaker 2>the Kennedy assassination in America during the Vietnam Era. In

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<v Speaker 2>the process of doing that, I talked to my parents

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<v Speaker 2>a lot, and I let them read the manuscript and

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<v Speaker 2>it was a very healing experience for all of us.

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<v Speaker 1>I think, when does writing become a career decision for you?

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<v Speaker 2>When I came back from Egypt in nineteen seventy one,

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<v Speaker 2>I decided that I was going to write an article

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<v Speaker 2>for it. I decided I was going to write an

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<v Speaker 2>article for the New Yorker. I hadn't contacted them, and they, no,

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<v Speaker 2>they had no idea. My folks had a little lake

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<v Speaker 2>cabin up in Equipment, Texas, in East Texas, and so

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<v Speaker 2>my wife and I moved out there for six months

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<v Speaker 2>while I wrote letter from Cairo, and there.

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<v Speaker 1>Was a report from Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So there it was an RFD, you know mail, and

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<v Speaker 2>there was we had a little you know box out

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<v Speaker 2>on the road where you raise the red flag and

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<v Speaker 2>the mailman stops and I sent my manuscript into the

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<v Speaker 2>New Yorker. I'm sure this isn't true, but it seemed

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<v Speaker 2>that it came back the next day from equipment Texas

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<v Speaker 2>to mister Shawn's desk to back the equipment with a

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a little rejection card in there. And that was,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, my first attempt at becoming a writer. It

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<v Speaker 2>would it would be many, many years later that I

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<v Speaker 2>actually got a chance to write for The New Yorker.

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<v Speaker 1>You're in Cairo, you're married.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, this is an odd story because you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I went in to I had to get a job

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<v Speaker 2>that was fifty miles from my home, and that wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>a problem I wanted. I was so sick of America

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<v Speaker 2>at that time, and the argument over the war was

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<v Speaker 2>so devastating, and I just wanted to get as far

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<v Speaker 2>away as I could. And it had to pay very little,

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<v Speaker 2>and it had to be nominally in the service of

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<v Speaker 2>the United States, so I uh, and the bedpen jobs

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<v Speaker 2>were all taken, which normally is what a conscientious objector does,

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<v Speaker 2>but this was during the Nixon recession, and those were

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<v Speaker 2>all taken. So I thought I would go to the

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<v Speaker 2>un and you know, get a job and they send

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<v Speaker 2>me far far away. And I went to the UNN

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<v Speaker 2>and they said, no, we don't do that. But here's

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<v Speaker 2>a list of American institutions abroad. Okay, I mean one

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<v Speaker 2>of them. American University in Cairo had an office across

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<v Speaker 2>the street at eight sixty six un Plaza. And do

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<v Speaker 2>you remember Huntington Hartford and Show magazine here? I thought

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<v Speaker 2>you might. Well, you know, he had a famous office,

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<v Speaker 2>and I realized they was in the same building. And

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, I'll go over and peek into Huntington Hartford's

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<v Speaker 2>office and then I'll go upstairs and ask for a job.

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<v Speaker 2>So I did that, and you know, I walked in

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<v Speaker 2>and I didn't I knew that there had been a

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<v Speaker 2>war in the Middle East, but I wasn't, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it wasn't the war that I was focused on, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>And and I didn't know that we didn't have any

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<v Speaker 2>diplomatic relations with Egypt at the time. I'm not even

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<v Speaker 2>sure what language they spoke, but I walked in and

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<v Speaker 2>thirty minutes later they said can you leave tonight? And

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<v Speaker 2>I said, well, no, my girlfriend's back in Boston and

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<v Speaker 2>I haven't told my parents what I'm doing, and can

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<v Speaker 2>you leave tomorrow. Well, yeah, I can go tomorrow, so let.

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<v Speaker 1>Me make a couple of phone calls. There.

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<v Speaker 2>I went back and I told my girlfriend, now my wife,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to Egypt tomorrow and I don't know where

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<v Speaker 2>that leaves us, and I'll be gone for two years.

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<v Speaker 2>And then and I called my parents from JFK the

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<v Speaker 2>next morning and told him I was going to Cairo.

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<v Speaker 2>And I flew to Cairo and landed, you know, late

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<v Speaker 2>at night, and the next morning, at nine o'clock, I

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<v Speaker 2>taught my first class. After a couple of weeks, I

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<v Speaker 2>was really missing Roberta. Back then, you didn't make telephone

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<v Speaker 2>calls or you know, international calls and stuff like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Letters were passing, and at some point I said, you

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<v Speaker 2>know the terms under which we left were. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you can't go. You just couldn't live together in Egypt.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it was a very conservative society. And if

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<v Speaker 2>I invite you to come, that means we'll get married.

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<v Speaker 2>So and you know, our letters crossed in the mail.

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<v Speaker 2>I asked her to come, and she said she was

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<v Speaker 2>coming anyway. And then did you name your first child Huntington? No,

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<v Speaker 2>but that would have been some Then the question became

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<v Speaker 2>where to get married, because there was this idea that

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<v Speaker 2>was swhere in the back of my mind that if

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<v Speaker 2>I got married in Egypt under Islamic law, I could

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<v Speaker 2>have the additional three wives, which was an option. I

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't sure that I wanted to exercise, but you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it could be. You know, it's a contingency. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think I have the management skills. Yeah, over there, they

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<v Speaker 2>insist you be married. You can be married as many

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<v Speaker 2>times as you want, you know, or they dis insisted

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<v Speaker 2>that you'll be married. So you're there for two usually

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<v Speaker 2>come back, yeah, and then what happens? Then I talked

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<v Speaker 2>the start the long road of trying to start a

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<v Speaker 2>career as a writer, and you moved to where. The

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<v Speaker 2>first job I got was in Nashville for the race

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<v Speaker 2>relations reporter. I was the only writer for a long time.

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<v Speaker 2>But we would go into situations where, you know, there

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<v Speaker 2>was racial conflict and oftentimes the local press was biased

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<v Speaker 2>or not paying attention to it, and so it might

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<v Speaker 2>be about you know, the civil rights movement in the South,

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<v Speaker 2>or Indians. You know, the Indian movement was underway at

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<v Speaker 2>the time. School desegregation was very active, all those things.

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<v Speaker 2>I got a chance to write about it taught me

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<v Speaker 2>quite a lot about how you know, to actually write

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<v Speaker 2>an article is a matter of being plunged into it.

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<v Speaker 1>Was there a mentor you had then.

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<v Speaker 2>A very crazy editor named Jim Leeson in Nashville.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Him. It was a strange man, and he the whole

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<v Speaker 2>culture was a little strange, to be honest. I Jim

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<v Speaker 2>when I went to apply for the job, I was

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<v Speaker 2>a pretty good tennis player, and he asked about that,

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<v Speaker 2>and so he asked if we could play tennis the

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<v Speaker 2>next day. So I show up in my tennis duds

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<v Speaker 2>and he goes out and plays me in his street shoes,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course I beat him pretty soundly. But still

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<v Speaker 2>the notion that he would play tennis and street shoes

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<v Speaker 2>was and he wound up firing me when I wrote

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<v Speaker 2>a memo suggesting that we reorganized the I was probably

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<v Speaker 2>I deserve to be fired, imagine. So, but it was

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<v Speaker 2>a it was another test to be plunged into the

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<v Speaker 2>freelance market.

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<v Speaker 1>I first became familiar with you and you're writing in

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<v Speaker 1>the Olympia Washington story. The piece was entitled Remembering Satan,

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<v Speaker 1>which you wrote as a book as well. These were

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<v Speaker 1>excerpts in the book. There was a two part lengthy

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<v Speaker 1>excerpt in the edition of The New Yorker, and I

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<v Speaker 1>first became familiar with you, And I mean I was

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<v Speaker 1>just supposed, you know, like knocked out by this piece.

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<v Speaker 1>I thought, how on earth is this possible? Was this

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<v Speaker 1>the first such piece you wrote, the Olympia piece.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I think I had written about you know, a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of different even wrote about Satanists, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>people of all sorts of I mean, if you're a

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<v Speaker 2>reporter and you have a passport to write about anybody,

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<v Speaker 2>and I took full advantage of that. But that remembering

0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:44.760
<v Speaker 2>satan is kind of a stereotypical type of article that

0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:48.480
<v Speaker 2>I like to write about, which is, for one thing,

0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.160
<v Speaker 2>it's a discreet world, you know. In this case, it was,

0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:55.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, this world inside Olympia, Washington that had been

0:12:55.920 --> 0:13:01.440
<v Speaker 2>infected by these hysterical memories of Satanic ritual abuse which

0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:05.520
<v Speaker 2>never occurred. But a man was convicted of these crimes.

0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.640
<v Speaker 2>He confessed to them because he remembered them, and there

0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:12.439
<v Speaker 2>was other than his memory. There was no evidence of it.

0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:15.200
<v Speaker 1>If I remember correctly. No one else was sentenced to prison.

0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:16.880
<v Speaker 2>Only Paul went to prison.

0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.120
<v Speaker 1>What's his relationship with his family now or do you

0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:22.960
<v Speaker 1>even know it's very broken as far as I haven't

0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:24.559
<v Speaker 1>talked to Paul in a couple of years.

0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:28.560
<v Speaker 2>But you know he's married again. You know, he started

0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:35.200
<v Speaker 2>another life. But you know, it's an example of how

0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:40.560
<v Speaker 2>the mind can be so persuaded of, you know, a

0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:42.319
<v Speaker 2>false reality that.

0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:44.640
<v Speaker 1>Everybody is capable of.

0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:48.560
<v Speaker 2>That I don't know if I would say that.

0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:50.960
<v Speaker 1>To whatever degree, not capable of that, but creating a

0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:51.680
<v Speaker 1>false reality.

0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.080
<v Speaker 2>One of the things that has been an education to

0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:58.640
<v Speaker 2>me as a reporter when I'm out interviewing people that

0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.000
<v Speaker 2>have been for instance, in out Kaida or you know,

0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.640
<v Speaker 2>people that have come out of you know, I interviewed

0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.400
<v Speaker 2>the children of Jim Jones, and you know, I talked

0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:10.880
<v Speaker 2>to people who went into scientology. They're not crazy people,

0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:14.800
<v Speaker 2>then they're not stupid, and you know they're they're often

0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, if there's a commonality, there's idealism of you know,

0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.440
<v Speaker 2>there a longing to make, you know, change history, make

0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:28.680
<v Speaker 2>something of yourself, and that's you know, maybe that's one

0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:31.360
<v Speaker 2>of the most dangerous elements of our human nature, is

0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:34.240
<v Speaker 2>that we it's the better parts of our nature that

0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:37.040
<v Speaker 2>sometimes lead us into real dangerous areas.

0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:41.760
<v Speaker 1>We were the better parts of the natures of Jones's children.

0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:46.160
<v Speaker 2>Well you know they were. They were essentially captive to him.

0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.720
<v Speaker 2>So but and they survived, thank god. They were all

0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:55.400
<v Speaker 2>playing basketball in a tournament in Georgetown, Guyana, So they

0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.280
<v Speaker 2>weren't killings when when the killings went down. But the

0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:06.920
<v Speaker 2>it's always to me, it is always underscored the danger

0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:11.840
<v Speaker 2>of these kinds of fanatical belief systems. There were these

0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:16.840
<v Speaker 2>three boys, two adopted. Stephen was a natural son and

0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.960
<v Speaker 2>he looked very much like his father, Jim Jones, with

0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:23.840
<v Speaker 2>the kind of Cherokee cheek bones, and he's very tall

0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:29.640
<v Speaker 2>and striking, handsome man. And then there was Jim Jones Junior,

0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:34.480
<v Speaker 2>who was black and adopted adopted. And then the third

0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:39.480
<v Speaker 2>adopted son was Tim, who is this big red headed guy. Tim.

0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.120
<v Speaker 2>These boys when I talked to him, Waco was going

0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:47.240
<v Speaker 2>on at that time, the Branch Davidian episode, and Tina

0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.840
<v Speaker 2>Brown was the editor of the New Yorker, and she

0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:52.000
<v Speaker 2>wanted me to go to Waco. And I said, they're

0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:55.360
<v Speaker 2>more reporters in Waco than there are Branch Davidians. I

0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.240
<v Speaker 2>just but I was. I was convinced that this must.

0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:00.520
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'd seen the children, some of the children

0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:02.560
<v Speaker 2>that were sent out. I thought that this must have

0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:05.720
<v Speaker 2>happened before. And I found these three boys who had

0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:10.000
<v Speaker 2>never then grown men, never told their story before. And

0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.360
<v Speaker 2>I don't know why they were willing to talk to me.

0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:17.000
<v Speaker 2>But Tim, when I got to him, he demanded that

0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:20.280
<v Speaker 2>we stood in a restaurant, in a public place, because

0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:22.920
<v Speaker 2>he didn't want to cry, and he had never told

0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:26.480
<v Speaker 2>his wife, his current wife, what had happened. Man, He

0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:30.280
<v Speaker 2>wanted to say this story one time. Now, bear in mind,

0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:34.240
<v Speaker 2>Tim Jones is a massive fellow. He can press one

0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:37.360
<v Speaker 2>hundred pounds with either arm. You know, he has an

0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:41.040
<v Speaker 2>immense physical presence. And we went to the restaurant and

0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:44.760
<v Speaker 2>within a few minutes he was pounding the table and sobbing.

0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.560
<v Speaker 2>Because Tim is the one who had to go into

0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:52.840
<v Speaker 2>the jungle and identify nine hundred people, his real parents,

0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.480
<v Speaker 2>his adoptive parents, his wife at the time, and his children,

0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:04.280
<v Speaker 2>everybody lying on the ground. And it makes an impression.

0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.480
<v Speaker 1>Did he ever confide to you or even just discussed

0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:10.119
<v Speaker 1>to you what he thought was going on there? What

0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:10.600
<v Speaker 1>he thought.

0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.240
<v Speaker 2>They all knew that their dad was crazy and that

0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:17.639
<v Speaker 2>this was what was he doing there. You know, he

0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.879
<v Speaker 2>was giving these suicide drills regularly. You know, they break out.

0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:26.199
<v Speaker 1>The what was the purpose of Jonestown.

0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:30.879
<v Speaker 2>Well, they stated purpose was to they were Jones was

0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.840
<v Speaker 2>intensely paranoid. He had the feeling that the government was

0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:38.480
<v Speaker 2>persecuting him, which was not really true at all. But

0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.520
<v Speaker 2>one night the entire church disappeared. You know, they all

0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:46.479
<v Speaker 2>went secretly to this little South American country with it,

0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:48.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, in the in the middle of the jungle.

0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:52.240
<v Speaker 2>They've been preparing it. The boys are religious Utopia, the yeah,

0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:53.760
<v Speaker 2>and it was just a you know, it was like

0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.960
<v Speaker 2>a you know, a little summer camp type of thing.

0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.920
<v Speaker 2>They've built quantcet huts and so on, and they were

0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.040
<v Speaker 2>living near a river and they built an airstrip.

0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:05.359
<v Speaker 1>I remember reading on this thing online where they said

0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.520
<v Speaker 1>that Jonestown was this training ground where they were breeding

0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:12.040
<v Speaker 1>MK ultra operatives who were capable of committing murder on

0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.480
<v Speaker 1>behalf of the government and then they'd have no memory

0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:16.640
<v Speaker 1>of it. Well, you know, I'm not saying that that's true,

0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:17.480
<v Speaker 1>but I remember reading that once.

0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.520
<v Speaker 2>I was fast when I was writing about remembering Satan,

0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.480
<v Speaker 2>when I was doing the you know, multiple personalities were

0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.840
<v Speaker 2>supposed to be the product of satanic ritual abuse, and

0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:31.160
<v Speaker 2>there was a big rise in multiple personality disorder. And

0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:35.160
<v Speaker 2>one of the theories was that the multiples had been

0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:40.200
<v Speaker 2>created by the CIA in order that one personality could

0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.280
<v Speaker 2>become a spy and you know, deliver messages that other

0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:46.520
<v Speaker 2>personalities inside the same human being wouldn't know about.

0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:54.120
<v Speaker 1>Lawrence Wright's New Yorker article, The Orphans of Jonestown, came

0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.960
<v Speaker 1>out for the fifteenth anniversary of the nineteen seventy eight

0:18:57.040 --> 0:19:01.480
<v Speaker 1>massacre that killed over nine hundred people. Listen to more

0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:06.240
<v Speaker 1>conversations with writers who take on complicated issues, like David Simon,

0:19:06.400 --> 0:19:09.359
<v Speaker 1>who wrote the TV show The Wire but started out

0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:11.879
<v Speaker 1>as the beat reporter for the Baltimore Sun.

0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:14.359
<v Speaker 2>I think I was very fair as a reporter. You know,

0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.159
<v Speaker 2>some of poverty is about personal responsibility, and some of

0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:17.879
<v Speaker 2>it is not.

0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:21.400
<v Speaker 1>Some of it is systemic and a result of societal

0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:25.240
<v Speaker 1>forces that are profound. Take a listen in our archives

0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:48.720
<v Speaker 1>at Here's the Thing dot org. This is Alec Baldwin.

0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:52.520
<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Here's the Thing. My guest, Lawrence Wright

0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:56.640
<v Speaker 1>prefers taking notes on index cards over using a computer.

0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:59.760
<v Speaker 1>You can only imagine the number of cards, right you

0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:04.159
<v Speaker 1>For his book Going Clear, Scientology, Hollywood and the Prison

0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:09.040
<v Speaker 1>of Belief. After it was published in twenty thirteen, documentary

0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:13.080
<v Speaker 1>filmmaker Alex Gibney asked right if he'd consider an adaptation.

0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.840
<v Speaker 2>We'd worked together before. You know, I had done this

0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.879
<v Speaker 2>book about al Qaeda called The Looming Tower, and I

0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:26.520
<v Speaker 2>had my little acting venture. I didn't want to travel

0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.240
<v Speaker 2>with it, you know, I just hate touring, you know,

0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:34.399
<v Speaker 2>doing the book tour thing. I had seen Anna Deavere

0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:36.920
<v Speaker 2>Smith do Fires in the Mirror at the Public Theater

0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:39.159
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen ninety two and was the first time I

0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:42.840
<v Speaker 2>could see that journalism and theater could be married. And

0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:45.920
<v Speaker 2>I fascinated by that. So I did a one man

0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:49.159
<v Speaker 2>show called My Trip to al Qaeda, and I did

0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:52.600
<v Speaker 2>it off Broadway for about six weeks and in a

0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.080
<v Speaker 2>few other cities, and Alex saw me do it in Washington.

0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.280
<v Speaker 2>We decided to make it into a documentary, which we

0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:03.080
<v Speaker 2>did for hb OH. We hit it off. Alex is

0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:10.760
<v Speaker 2>his nickname from childhood is Tiger, and his well chosen name,

0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:14.680
<v Speaker 2>and he's this very skillful storyteller, and it takes those

0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:20.320
<v Speaker 2>qualities to take something as complicated about an organizations vindictive

0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:23.479
<v Speaker 2>and litigious as the Church of Scientology. It takes somebody

0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:27.080
<v Speaker 2>like Alex to put together a movie like he's just done.

0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:31.440
<v Speaker 1>One of the things I thought when I saw the film,

0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:35.119
<v Speaker 1>and I mean, all my friends and people who know

0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:40.200
<v Speaker 1>me personally, it wasn't lost on them that within about

0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:42.640
<v Speaker 1>a week of returning from Park City for the festival,

0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:44.520
<v Speaker 1>I went there to have a vacation with my family.

0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:47.719
<v Speaker 1>We just tacked on an extra weekend to see some

0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:51.320
<v Speaker 1>movies because I'm a big fan of the festival, and

0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:53.240
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't lost to my friends with it. About a

0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:54.840
<v Speaker 1>week after that, I was back on a plane to

0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:58.040
<v Speaker 1>London to go shoot a film with Tom Cruise. And

0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:00.840
<v Speaker 1>Tom is a friend of mine, you know, and I

0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:02.720
<v Speaker 1>mean I consider him a friend in the business sense,

0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:04.040
<v Speaker 1>but we don't get to see each other that often.

0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:06.119
<v Speaker 1>But he's always very kind and as people who know

0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:08.840
<v Speaker 1>Tom know, he's a great person to be in the

0:22:08.880 --> 0:22:11.320
<v Speaker 1>trenches of movie making with. He's very hard working and

0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:15.640
<v Speaker 1>very very passionate about the work. But when I saw

0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:19.040
<v Speaker 1>the film, one thing I didn't get and maybe it's there,

0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:21.199
<v Speaker 1>maybe it was in the book, and maybe it's in

0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:24.000
<v Speaker 1>the film, but it was I mean I watched this

0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:28.879
<v Speaker 1>film with intense scrutiny. There wasn't any sense to me

0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:32.600
<v Speaker 1>of what are the people who are in scientology and

0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.600
<v Speaker 1>remain in scientology and who are dedicated to this, what

0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:38.280
<v Speaker 1>do they perceive they're getting out of it? Because I

0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:40.840
<v Speaker 1>have some opinions about that. What people have told me, Well,

0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:43.240
<v Speaker 1>what does it do for them? Why are they there?

0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:46.320
<v Speaker 2>Especially when people go into scientology, they don't you know,

0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:48.800
<v Speaker 2>they don't go into it because it's a cult. They

0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:52.119
<v Speaker 2>go into it oftentimes because they're looking for something such

0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:55.199
<v Speaker 2>as well, you know, sometimes they're spiritual seekers or they

0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:57.919
<v Speaker 2>you know, you might be one of those people that

0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:00.600
<v Speaker 2>goes down on the subway and someone says, would you

0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:03.800
<v Speaker 2>like to take our personality tests? You know, and sure,

0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:07.080
<v Speaker 2>Oxford capacity analysis. It sounds like, you know, might be

0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:09.520
<v Speaker 2>and you know, well, if we see that you have

0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:13.040
<v Speaker 2>a little trouble of communicating with people that's true, well

0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:15.359
<v Speaker 2>we you know, we can help, we can help you

0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:18.679
<v Speaker 2>with that. Or in the case of Paul Hagis, you know,

0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:22.280
<v Speaker 2>he had a girlfriend that he was having trouble with

0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:24.560
<v Speaker 2>and say, we have a course that can help you

0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:29.400
<v Speaker 2>in your relationships and PA and the truth is, oftentimes

0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:33.080
<v Speaker 2>they can help. It's like going into therapy. People do

0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:38.280
<v Speaker 2>benefit from it. So this initial exposure to scientology is

0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:40.080
<v Speaker 2>often very positive to people.

0:23:40.200 --> 0:23:43.199
<v Speaker 1>What about the people like Travolta, people who seem to

0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:45.439
<v Speaker 1>have the world on a silver platter and everything is

0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:46.480
<v Speaker 1>going their way.

0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:49.240
<v Speaker 2>Well, that wasn't true. When he got in. He was

0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:52.560
<v Speaker 2>a you know, troubled young man who was in his

0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:56.880
<v Speaker 2>first movie in Mexico. He confided to an actress who

0:23:56.960 --> 0:23:59.920
<v Speaker 2>was on the set. You know, he's having these difficulties,

0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:04.480
<v Speaker 2>and she was a scientologist, and she gave him some auditing,

0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:07.719
<v Speaker 2>which is what scientology calls his therapy, and gave him

0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:10.760
<v Speaker 2>a copy of Diynetics and so on. He had an

0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:15.800
<v Speaker 2>experience which happens to a lot of scientologists when they're

0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:19.719
<v Speaker 2>being audited. He went exterior. In other words, he had

0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:23.400
<v Speaker 2>an out of body experience. He had the sense that

0:24:23.480 --> 0:24:26.960
<v Speaker 2>he had left his corporal being and could look around

0:24:27.040 --> 0:24:29.359
<v Speaker 2>the room and you know, see things behind him and

0:24:29.400 --> 0:24:32.280
<v Speaker 2>so on. At the time he was taking a course,

0:24:32.840 --> 0:24:36.080
<v Speaker 2>when he'd tried out for this Welcome Back Cotter, the

0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:40.879
<v Speaker 2>teacher had everybody in the class turned their direction. I

0:24:40.880 --> 0:24:45.720
<v Speaker 2>think it was CBS Studios, you know, but telepathically send

0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:49.640
<v Speaker 2>the message to the executives that John Travolta is right

0:24:49.720 --> 0:24:51.920
<v Speaker 2>for the role, and he got the part. And so

0:24:52.040 --> 0:24:55.720
<v Speaker 2>he always credited Scientology was putting him in the big time,

0:24:55.800 --> 0:24:58.399
<v Speaker 2>as he said, So you know, in that sense, he

0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:02.159
<v Speaker 2>really did feel that it had changed his life. But

0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:04.600
<v Speaker 2>it's one thing to get into it, and it's another

0:25:04.640 --> 0:25:08.119
<v Speaker 2>thing to get out of it. If you are a star,

0:25:09.000 --> 0:25:11.480
<v Speaker 2>like Travolta was at one time the biggest star in

0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:15.040
<v Speaker 2>the world, the biggest and you have put your name

0:25:15.119 --> 0:25:18.800
<v Speaker 2>down again and again and again. As a Scientologist, you're

0:25:18.800 --> 0:25:20.159
<v Speaker 2>identified with it.

0:25:20.320 --> 0:25:23.840
<v Speaker 1>And they have tapes of you, yes, discussing your darkest moments.

0:25:23.920 --> 0:25:25.800
<v Speaker 2>Right like if you and I were sitting in a

0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:29.720
<v Speaker 2>Scientology auditing session right now, and you're my auditor, and

0:25:29.760 --> 0:25:32.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, and I'm holding the cans which are attached

0:25:32.720 --> 0:25:36.240
<v Speaker 2>to the E meter, and you're probing and asking me

0:25:36.400 --> 0:25:41.439
<v Speaker 2>very impersonal questions about my life and things that I

0:25:41.440 --> 0:25:43.879
<v Speaker 2>would not want to disclose to anyone else except in

0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:49.920
<v Speaker 2>this very confidential confessional atmosphereiatingly yeah, material that is actually

0:25:49.960 --> 0:25:54.679
<v Speaker 2>secretly recorded, sometimes videoed, and then it becomes apparent to

0:25:54.720 --> 0:25:58.359
<v Speaker 2>you that if you decide to leave, the church may

0:25:58.480 --> 0:26:00.920
<v Speaker 2>use some of that against you. And I talked that.

0:26:01.280 --> 0:26:03.720
<v Speaker 2>I talked to a guy whose assignment was to go

0:26:03.760 --> 0:26:07.439
<v Speaker 2>through all those old auditing sessions on John Travolta and

0:26:07.520 --> 0:26:09.800
<v Speaker 2>find stuff they could use against him because they were

0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:10.760
<v Speaker 2>worried that he was.

0:26:10.760 --> 0:26:13.719
<v Speaker 1>Going he was going to go over the wall. In

0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:16.000
<v Speaker 1>the piece in the film, the one thing I found

0:26:16.000 --> 0:26:21.200
<v Speaker 1>that was disturbing was that there are celebrities and wealthy

0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:25.440
<v Speaker 1>public figures who tie a certain amount of their money

0:26:25.480 --> 0:26:29.320
<v Speaker 1>millions of dollars to this organization, a second tier, if

0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:31.120
<v Speaker 1>you will, and this is my description the second tier,

0:26:31.160 --> 0:26:34.399
<v Speaker 1>if you will, are you know, middle Americans, middle income

0:26:34.440 --> 0:26:39.119
<v Speaker 1>who often go into debt, often go into dangerous amounts

0:26:39.160 --> 0:26:41.520
<v Speaker 1>of debt and unwise amounts of debt in order to

0:26:41.600 --> 0:26:44.640
<v Speaker 1>pay for these orditing courses so for them to give

0:26:44.720 --> 0:26:46.680
<v Speaker 1>money to the church. And then there's people who are poor,

0:26:46.720 --> 0:26:49.480
<v Speaker 1>who have nothing, who wind up trading in kind services.

0:26:49.480 --> 0:26:52.640
<v Speaker 1>They become, you know, they become like a labor force

0:26:52.680 --> 0:26:54.560
<v Speaker 1>for them, and then they get forty cents an hour

0:26:54.600 --> 0:26:57.679
<v Speaker 1>according to the film, and they're doing a lot of

0:27:00.080 --> 0:27:03.520
<v Speaker 1>work that benefits other people. In the film, they're saying

0:27:03.560 --> 0:27:08.560
<v Speaker 1>that these people are maintaining in the hangar of cruises airplanes.

0:27:08.080 --> 0:27:12.359
<v Speaker 2>Well, not only maintained it, what they did was refurbish it.

0:27:12.400 --> 0:27:15.919
<v Speaker 2>They built all the furniture, they painted it, They you know,

0:27:15.960 --> 0:27:18.680
<v Speaker 2>they essentially took an empty hangar and made it into

0:27:18.760 --> 0:27:21.440
<v Speaker 2>an office and a place for his planes and all

0:27:21.480 --> 0:27:24.960
<v Speaker 2>these elaborate If you ever been in his hangar Burbank,

0:27:25.000 --> 0:27:28.040
<v Speaker 2>well he's got you know these you know, big decals

0:27:28.080 --> 0:27:30.760
<v Speaker 2>and stuff like that, you know, banners hanging down. It's

0:27:30.800 --> 0:27:37.080
<v Speaker 2>a pretty swank environment. And they handcrafted a limousine for him,

0:27:37.119 --> 0:27:42.280
<v Speaker 2>and oversaw the reconstruction of his tour bus, and they,

0:27:42.800 --> 0:27:46.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, refurbished his house. And these are people who

0:27:46.800 --> 0:27:50.119
<v Speaker 2>are paid fifty dollars a week. Many of them joined

0:27:50.119 --> 0:27:54.440
<v Speaker 2>as children, so you know, they're impoverished and.

0:27:54.320 --> 0:27:56.080
<v Speaker 1>They have no place to go.

0:27:56.160 --> 0:27:59.080
<v Speaker 2>They have, you know, and if we if they do,

0:27:59.119 --> 0:28:01.479
<v Speaker 2>they don't know it. They Yeah, then of course may

0:28:02.200 --> 0:28:05.000
<v Speaker 2>be the case that their families and all are in

0:28:05.200 --> 0:28:09.200
<v Speaker 2>the church and if they left, none of those people

0:28:09.240 --> 0:28:10.280
<v Speaker 2>would ever speak to them again.

0:28:10.359 --> 0:28:12.520
<v Speaker 1>Do you think the people who were the beneficiaries of

0:28:12.600 --> 0:28:15.159
<v Speaker 1>this kind of stuff, do they know what's happening.

0:28:15.000 --> 0:28:18.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's no question that Tom Cruise knows what's going

0:28:18.640 --> 0:28:22.520
<v Speaker 2>on inside the Sea Org. And I hold Tom to account.

0:28:22.960 --> 0:28:27.320
<v Speaker 2>I single him out in particular. And because there are

0:28:27.359 --> 0:28:32.359
<v Speaker 2>only two ways that the abuses that we chronicle in

0:28:32.400 --> 0:28:34.640
<v Speaker 2>the movie and in my book, they are only two

0:28:34.680 --> 0:28:37.520
<v Speaker 2>ways that they can be addressed, and one is that

0:28:37.520 --> 0:28:41.160
<v Speaker 2>the IRS decides, well, maybe we should re examine that

0:28:41.280 --> 0:28:44.000
<v Speaker 2>tax exemption that we were bludgeoned and to given them

0:28:44.160 --> 0:28:44.840
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen nine.

0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:47.000
<v Speaker 1>Expect I'm explained for people who don't look this is

0:28:47.000 --> 0:28:49.840
<v Speaker 1>a fascinating part of the film. It was during the

0:28:49.880 --> 0:28:54.560
<v Speaker 1>time that Hubbard was alive, or was the settlement reached

0:28:54.600 --> 0:28:57.680
<v Speaker 1>after Hubbard dies After he died, and apparently he had

0:28:57.680 --> 0:29:01.720
<v Speaker 1>a brigade and raising a lot of money, and he

0:29:01.760 --> 0:29:03.880
<v Speaker 1>had a lot of cash at his disposal and was

0:29:04.000 --> 0:29:08.680
<v Speaker 1>just shelling the Irs and litigation to maintain their status.

0:29:08.920 --> 0:29:11.160
<v Speaker 1>And finally the IRS just caved and said.

0:29:11.200 --> 0:29:15.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, here's the situation that described what had David Misscavage

0:29:15.560 --> 0:29:20.600
<v Speaker 2>found himself in. After Hubbard died, he wrestled control of

0:29:20.640 --> 0:29:24.520
<v Speaker 2>this organization and Hubbard had decided not to pay the taxes,

0:29:25.040 --> 0:29:28.320
<v Speaker 2>and so by nineteen ninety three, the Church of Scientology

0:29:28.400 --> 0:29:31.200
<v Speaker 2>was a billion dollars in arrears and it didn't have

0:29:31.280 --> 0:29:34.520
<v Speaker 2>a billion dollars, and so this was an existential moment

0:29:34.640 --> 0:29:37.640
<v Speaker 2>for the church. They had to get a tax exemption.

0:29:38.280 --> 0:29:42.440
<v Speaker 2>And moreover, the IRS hated them because, you know, in

0:29:42.480 --> 0:29:46.760
<v Speaker 2>the eighties, Hubbard had infiltrated all these you know, the

0:29:47.040 --> 0:29:51.120
<v Speaker 2>Justice Department, the IRS, Food and Drug Administration had all

0:29:51.160 --> 0:29:55.600
<v Speaker 2>these Scientology spies inside the government until the FBI broke

0:29:55.680 --> 0:29:58.479
<v Speaker 2>it open and what was called Operation snow White, and

0:29:58.880 --> 0:30:01.560
<v Speaker 2>twelve people went to prey and including Hubbard's wife. So

0:30:01.600 --> 0:30:05.160
<v Speaker 2>the IRS, among other government agencies did not look kindly

0:30:05.640 --> 0:30:09.680
<v Speaker 2>on the Church of Scientology. So how do you just

0:30:09.760 --> 0:30:13.120
<v Speaker 2>imagine how you would go about getting a tax exempsion

0:30:13.200 --> 0:30:17.800
<v Speaker 2>from the IRS. Well, the Scientology way was to launch

0:30:17.920 --> 0:30:22.920
<v Speaker 2>twenty four hundred lawsuits against the IRS and individual agents,

0:30:23.240 --> 0:30:26.640
<v Speaker 2>to hire private investigators to follow agents around to go

0:30:26.720 --> 0:30:29.520
<v Speaker 2>to conventions where they might be drinking too much or

0:30:29.520 --> 0:30:30.160
<v Speaker 2>fooling around.

0:30:30.160 --> 0:30:32.120
<v Speaker 1>I don't have a billion dollars to pay the taxes,

0:30:32.320 --> 0:30:35.280
<v Speaker 1>but I've got fifty million, two lobs some grenades at ye.

0:30:35.360 --> 0:30:41.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, and so and they they they won, and

0:30:42.240 --> 0:30:46.680
<v Speaker 2>they wanted such a they one my personal feeling is twofold.

0:30:46.720 --> 0:30:49.000
<v Speaker 2>One is I think that the IRS just did cave

0:30:49.560 --> 0:30:52.959
<v Speaker 2>because the deal that the deal on the table was,

0:30:53.320 --> 0:30:56.480
<v Speaker 2>will give you the exemption and all those lawsuits will

0:30:56.480 --> 0:30:57.520
<v Speaker 2>go away. And they did.

0:30:58.000 --> 0:31:00.360
<v Speaker 1>And so do they say, well, we'll give you the

0:31:00.360 --> 0:31:02.200
<v Speaker 1>exemption and take away those losses. Would you have to

0:31:02.200 --> 0:31:04.280
<v Speaker 1>pay us some amount of this money in twelve million

0:31:04.360 --> 0:31:07.760
<v Speaker 1>dollars and that's all see the IRS that's acquired.

0:31:08.000 --> 0:31:11.800
<v Speaker 2>And moreover, it was such an overwhelming exemption. The church

0:31:11.840 --> 0:31:16.960
<v Speaker 2>has manifold different entities, you know, but even Hubbard's novels

0:31:17.320 --> 0:31:22.560
<v Speaker 2>are considered to be scripture and taxes and in the

0:31:22.720 --> 0:31:26.000
<v Speaker 2>church now has the authority to determine which parts of

0:31:26.040 --> 0:31:28.080
<v Speaker 2>itself should be tax exempt.

0:31:28.240 --> 0:31:30.600
<v Speaker 1>Who was it in the film? If I remember correctly,

0:31:30.600 --> 0:31:33.680
<v Speaker 1>there's someone, I think there's an individual use site who

0:31:33.800 --> 0:31:36.280
<v Speaker 1>says to Hubbard early in his career, the only way

0:31:36.320 --> 0:31:37.920
<v Speaker 1>you're going to get riches if you started religions.

0:31:37.920 --> 0:31:39.720
<v Speaker 2>Oh, there were about ten people he said that too.

0:31:40.000 --> 0:31:43.320
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I think that Hubbard really, I think

0:31:43.320 --> 0:31:45.800
<v Speaker 2>he really did believe that. But let me get back

0:31:45.800 --> 0:31:48.400
<v Speaker 2>to that question of you know, just to touch back

0:31:48.440 --> 0:31:51.880
<v Speaker 2>on Tom Cruise before we finish that if the if

0:31:51.920 --> 0:31:56.400
<v Speaker 2>the I R S re examined after the licking it

0:31:56.480 --> 0:32:00.280
<v Speaker 2>took from from Scientology, if it decided to go back

0:32:00.320 --> 0:32:03.560
<v Speaker 2>and re examined, that that might force change inside the church.

0:32:04.120 --> 0:32:07.320
<v Speaker 2>But I haven't seen any evidence that the IRS has

0:32:07.320 --> 0:32:09.000
<v Speaker 2>the appetite to do this, although.

0:32:09.040 --> 0:32:11.080
<v Speaker 1>The Senator on the West Coast, Senator.

0:32:10.800 --> 0:32:14.200
<v Speaker 2>Ron Wyden, is looking into this, and so you know,

0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:17.760
<v Speaker 2>that's a possible. But the other way that change and

0:32:17.840 --> 0:32:21.480
<v Speaker 2>reform could come in Scientology is that some of the

0:32:21.520 --> 0:32:25.680
<v Speaker 2>celebrity megaphones turn around in the other direction and demand change.

0:32:25.960 --> 0:32:30.320
<v Speaker 2>And nobody has benefited more from Scientology than Tom Cruise.

0:32:30.400 --> 0:32:33.720
<v Speaker 2>Nobody is more identified in the public with the Church

0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:37.360
<v Speaker 2>of Scientology than Tom Cruise. Nobody has brought lured more

0:32:37.400 --> 0:32:40.400
<v Speaker 2>people into the church than Tom Cruise. If you ask

0:32:40.480 --> 0:32:44.680
<v Speaker 2>people name one member of the Church of Scientology, that's

0:32:44.680 --> 0:32:49.320
<v Speaker 2>the one ever. And moreover, it's a powerful I mean,

0:32:49.360 --> 0:32:52.280
<v Speaker 2>if you look at you know, he was the number

0:32:52.320 --> 0:32:57.240
<v Speaker 2>one box office star, so he had Travolta than Tom Cruise.

0:32:57.280 --> 0:33:00.040
<v Speaker 2>And you know, and also Will Smith, who started a

0:33:00.080 --> 0:33:03.640
<v Speaker 2>Scientology school. Although he says he's not a scientologist, he

0:33:03.720 --> 0:33:05.719
<v Speaker 2>was one of the time he was number one. So

0:33:05.760 --> 0:33:09.520
<v Speaker 2>you have one, two, three, the most powerful actors in

0:33:09.560 --> 0:33:13.760
<v Speaker 2>the most power. And if you're a young actor standing

0:33:13.760 --> 0:33:16.840
<v Speaker 2>out in central casting waiting to get maybe.

0:33:16.640 --> 0:33:19.200
<v Speaker 1>He's not a bad idea. If I stopped by this center.

0:33:18.880 --> 0:33:21.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, when you're standing in line, they'll be passing out

0:33:21.360 --> 0:33:24.040
<v Speaker 2>brochures saying how to get an agent, how to get

0:33:24.080 --> 0:33:26.600
<v Speaker 2>ahead and the business. Come to the celebrity.

0:33:26.120 --> 0:33:28.240
<v Speaker 1>Center where they make that direct link.

0:33:28.600 --> 0:33:32.280
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and he also back in the old days, the

0:33:32.400 --> 0:33:38.600
<v Speaker 2>acting schools like the Beverly Hills Playhouse was run by Yes,

0:33:38.600 --> 0:33:41.760
<v Speaker 2>who was my teacher. He was apparently a wonderful.

0:33:41.360 --> 0:33:43.200
<v Speaker 1>Teacher, and he was a scientologist.

0:33:43.240 --> 0:33:45.160
<v Speaker 2>And did he ever try to recruit you? Uh?

0:33:46.320 --> 0:33:48.960
<v Speaker 1>I think I wasn't there long enough. I was there

0:33:49.000 --> 0:33:53.000
<v Speaker 1>for under a year. I went briefly and could sell

0:33:53.040 --> 0:33:54.040
<v Speaker 1>Us was quite a character.

0:33:54.080 --> 0:33:56.239
<v Speaker 2>He would tell me about it, and I'm fascinated by him.

0:33:56.320 --> 0:33:59.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, could sell Us He said something that, although it

0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:04.600
<v Speaker 1>was very arch and very kind of you might think

0:34:04.600 --> 0:34:07.760
<v Speaker 1>this was ego maniacal. He was nonetheless right. There was

0:34:07.800 --> 0:34:09.960
<v Speaker 1>a guy up on stage doing a scene. I was

0:34:09.960 --> 0:34:13.080
<v Speaker 1>in this class. My then girlfriend got me into the class.

0:34:13.840 --> 0:34:17.719
<v Speaker 1>This guy's up there doing a scene I'll never forget.

0:34:17.080 --> 0:34:21.239
<v Speaker 1>And Cadsellis is giving his notes on the scene and

0:34:21.760 --> 0:34:24.040
<v Speaker 1>the guy starts to debate him. He says, well, yeah,

0:34:24.040 --> 0:34:26.799
<v Speaker 1>I don't think it's really and Kdsellis says, I beg

0:34:26.840 --> 0:34:28.319
<v Speaker 1>your pardon and he says, well I don't. He goes, well,

0:34:28.360 --> 0:34:30.360
<v Speaker 1>I think it's this, and he goes what it is is?

0:34:30.400 --> 0:34:33.279
<v Speaker 1>And Godselli is now insisting and being a little more

0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:36.200
<v Speaker 1>because he was a very powerful guy rhetorically, and he

0:34:36.239 --> 0:34:38.919
<v Speaker 1>goes and says it again, and the guy debates him again,

0:34:38.920 --> 0:34:42.719
<v Speaker 1>and Kadzelis he said, we're not here for you to

0:34:42.800 --> 0:34:46.319
<v Speaker 1>debate what I tell you. He said, you come here

0:34:46.400 --> 0:34:49.000
<v Speaker 1>and you pay me for me to give you my opinion.

0:34:49.400 --> 0:34:53.160
<v Speaker 1>He said, I'm not interested in your opinion. I give

0:34:53.200 --> 0:34:55.920
<v Speaker 1>you my opinion, and you listen. He turns to the classics.

0:34:55.960 --> 0:34:58.839
<v Speaker 1>And that's it. We don't discuss what I'm saying. This

0:34:58.880 --> 0:35:01.960
<v Speaker 1>isn't a debate. I say what I say, you listen,

0:35:02.040 --> 0:35:08.800
<v Speaker 1>you write it down perhaps and we're done. And Scientology

0:35:08.880 --> 0:35:11.480
<v Speaker 1>I have found and this is I mean, I I

0:35:12.560 --> 0:35:14.799
<v Speaker 1>find it odd, but at the same time I find

0:35:14.800 --> 0:35:18.399
<v Speaker 1>it kind of fascinating. And nonetheless, where Scientology says to you,

0:35:18.600 --> 0:35:21.439
<v Speaker 1>this is what you were put on this earth to do,

0:35:22.280 --> 0:35:25.160
<v Speaker 1>and it gives you that license and that freedom. You

0:35:25.239 --> 0:35:29.040
<v Speaker 1>tell your parents, your wives, your children, everyone in your

0:35:29.080 --> 0:35:32.359
<v Speaker 1>life that nothing must get in the way of this thing.

0:35:32.440 --> 0:35:35.560
<v Speaker 1>This is the goose that lays the golden egg. Movie stardom.

0:35:35.719 --> 0:35:39.960
<v Speaker 1>Are you are different? There's an exceptionalistic nature to who

0:35:40.080 --> 0:35:42.080
<v Speaker 1>you are as a person. And the only way you're

0:35:42.080 --> 0:35:44.880
<v Speaker 1>going to first survive, I mean to stay in that

0:35:45.120 --> 0:35:47.520
<v Speaker 1>orbit out there, in that spaceship living that way. That's

0:35:47.560 --> 0:35:49.359
<v Speaker 1>a very difficult thing to do.

0:35:49.719 --> 0:35:52.360
<v Speaker 2>And I think when so many of these young people

0:35:52.360 --> 0:35:56.200
<v Speaker 2>when they come, you know, it is a young person's

0:35:56.239 --> 0:35:59.120
<v Speaker 2>game when they get into it. So many of the

0:35:59.120 --> 0:36:01.160
<v Speaker 2>people that went in scientology, and this is true of

0:36:01.160 --> 0:36:03.560
<v Speaker 2>anybody that tries to become an actor. Many people who

0:36:03.560 --> 0:36:06.319
<v Speaker 2>try to become actors, they leave high school. They don't

0:36:06.320 --> 0:36:08.160
<v Speaker 2>go to college. You have to go right away.

0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:10.799
<v Speaker 1>Nearly everyone we're talking about is uneducated.

0:36:10.280 --> 0:36:15.240
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and so you're in your vulnerable intellectually vulnerable. And

0:36:15.600 --> 0:36:19.120
<v Speaker 2>also you are risking everything. Your friends are going off,

0:36:19.120 --> 0:36:21.480
<v Speaker 2>they're going to get law degrees and stuff like that,

0:36:21.600 --> 0:36:24.960
<v Speaker 2>and you are out in you know, Hollywood, eating dog food,

0:36:25.040 --> 0:36:27.360
<v Speaker 2>hoping to be a movie star. There's a sense of

0:36:27.400 --> 0:36:30.759
<v Speaker 2>inadequacy that you haven't filled in the great blanks that

0:36:30.880 --> 0:36:35.880
<v Speaker 2>all your friends are doing. And so you along come scientologists,

0:36:36.040 --> 0:36:36.840
<v Speaker 2>which says.

0:36:36.880 --> 0:36:38.560
<v Speaker 1>Why bother, none of that matters.

0:36:38.640 --> 0:36:41.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we can, you can supersede all that, because well

0:36:41.160 --> 0:36:44.160
<v Speaker 2>we will get all you will. You will learn the

0:36:44.200 --> 0:36:47.319
<v Speaker 2>secrets of the universe, and you'll acquire superhuman powers. And

0:36:47.440 --> 0:36:51.880
<v Speaker 2>that's and also just being noticed at all at that

0:36:52.040 --> 0:36:57.120
<v Speaker 2>level is you know, very powerful, because you know, I'm

0:36:57.160 --> 0:36:59.800
<v Speaker 2>sure you've done this a million times. But I remember

0:36:59.800 --> 0:37:01.560
<v Speaker 2>once when I was out in La and I was

0:37:01.600 --> 0:37:05.360
<v Speaker 2>at Norman Lear's company, and I walked into a room

0:37:06.080 --> 0:37:08.799
<v Speaker 2>in the lobby and there were about forty guys who

0:37:08.800 --> 0:37:13.480
<v Speaker 2>were blonde and six foot two and extremely handsome, and

0:37:14.440 --> 0:37:18.160
<v Speaker 2>I felt small and brown, and you know, but there

0:37:18.200 --> 0:37:21.480
<v Speaker 2>was a sign saying no actors passed this point. And

0:37:21.719 --> 0:37:23.759
<v Speaker 2>I was able to walk past this point, and all

0:37:23.800 --> 0:37:27.919
<v Speaker 2>those blue eyes turned in my direction, and I thought,

0:37:28.080 --> 0:37:31.440
<v Speaker 2>one of those guys, one of those guys is going

0:37:31.520 --> 0:37:34.680
<v Speaker 2>to have his life change, and everybody else is going

0:37:34.719 --> 0:37:37.000
<v Speaker 2>to go home and some of them become lawnmowers or

0:37:37.040 --> 0:37:39.960
<v Speaker 2>something like that. But that's the risk to have the

0:37:40.040 --> 0:37:43.640
<v Speaker 2>Church of Scientology come along, maybe in that same room

0:37:43.960 --> 0:37:46.600
<v Speaker 2>and passing out brochure is saying that we can help you.

0:37:46.719 --> 0:37:49.360
<v Speaker 2>And by the way, on the brochure that might have

0:37:49.400 --> 0:37:52.680
<v Speaker 2>a picture of Tom Cruise or somebody like that is

0:37:52.719 --> 0:37:54.160
<v Speaker 2>a very powerful lure.

0:37:54.480 --> 0:37:57.000
<v Speaker 1>And here's people who say to you, you are different,

0:37:57.440 --> 0:38:00.920
<v Speaker 1>Just be different, Just accept it, don't fight. Where you're

0:38:00.960 --> 0:38:03.560
<v Speaker 1>going to go right now is extremely unusual for the

0:38:03.600 --> 0:38:07.040
<v Speaker 1>average person's going to be very rarefied atmosphere. Stay calm

0:38:07.080 --> 0:38:08.880
<v Speaker 1>in the pocket, and you're going to throw the football

0:38:08.880 --> 0:38:10.640
<v Speaker 1>one hundred yards down the field. You're going to score

0:38:10.680 --> 0:38:12.839
<v Speaker 1>the winning touchdown. Don't get in the way of your

0:38:12.840 --> 0:38:15.520
<v Speaker 1>own success. And I have seen many of the people

0:38:15.520 --> 0:38:17.880
<v Speaker 1>I know who are really prominent in scientology, they just

0:38:18.840 --> 0:38:21.120
<v Speaker 1>that's what it did for them. What clarity was for

0:38:21.200 --> 0:38:23.120
<v Speaker 1>them was this is who I am in a macho

0:38:23.360 --> 0:38:25.680
<v Speaker 1>and anybody that tried to make you think what you

0:38:25.680 --> 0:38:29.120
<v Speaker 1>were doing was less valid or less substantial, or less meaningful,

0:38:29.239 --> 0:38:30.480
<v Speaker 1>or it was silly or whatever.

0:38:31.040 --> 0:38:32.879
<v Speaker 2>These guys look and what you're saying, what do they

0:38:32.880 --> 0:38:34.759
<v Speaker 2>get out of it? There is you know, this is

0:38:35.000 --> 0:38:38.520
<v Speaker 2>you know a sense of solidity of your identity, belonging.

0:38:38.680 --> 0:38:44.080
<v Speaker 2>And what's so confounding about scientology in many ways is that,

0:38:44.200 --> 0:38:47.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, it promises you that you will become more

0:38:48.040 --> 0:38:53.040
<v Speaker 2>yourself and that you will achieve all this freedom of thought,

0:38:53.160 --> 0:38:57.719
<v Speaker 2>and that you you know, you'll become saner and healthier

0:38:57.800 --> 0:38:58.160
<v Speaker 2>and so.

0:38:58.080 --> 0:38:59.920
<v Speaker 1>On, but shed your past.

0:39:00.680 --> 0:39:03.799
<v Speaker 2>What happened so often is the very opposite. You know,

0:39:03.840 --> 0:39:06.680
<v Speaker 2>you be kind of you become kind of enslaved to

0:39:06.719 --> 0:39:10.480
<v Speaker 2>the mentality and you're not allowed to think freely. You know.

0:39:10.640 --> 0:39:12.200
<v Speaker 2>One of the things that was so striking to me

0:39:12.200 --> 0:39:17.560
<v Speaker 2>about Paul Haggis, who is a very skeptical, imaginative, curious person.

0:39:18.080 --> 0:39:20.480
<v Speaker 2>But he was in the church for thirty five years

0:39:20.520 --> 0:39:22.960
<v Speaker 2>and for thirty four of those years he never heard

0:39:23.000 --> 0:39:26.480
<v Speaker 2>a disparaging word about scientology, never looked on the internet,

0:39:26.640 --> 0:39:28.480
<v Speaker 2>he never read any of those stories because he was

0:39:28.520 --> 0:39:31.480
<v Speaker 2>told not to, and he didn't. He was just as

0:39:31.520 --> 0:39:35.560
<v Speaker 2>obedient as all those other people because he was told.

0:39:35.360 --> 0:39:40.200
<v Speaker 1>It was for his intellectual curiosity. Go regarding that, Yeah,

0:39:40.280 --> 0:39:41.759
<v Speaker 1>what is the thing you're working on now?

0:39:43.160 --> 0:39:46.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm doing you know. I did another book about

0:39:46.560 --> 0:39:49.640
<v Speaker 2>Camp David the Carter begins the Dot Thing, which had

0:39:49.680 --> 0:39:51.920
<v Speaker 2>a play and I'm now going to do it as

0:39:51.960 --> 0:39:54.200
<v Speaker 2>a movie for HBO, and I'm doing a pilot for

0:39:54.360 --> 0:39:58.480
<v Speaker 2>HBO on Texas politics right and I'm working with Bob

0:39:58.520 --> 0:40:02.359
<v Speaker 2>Balaban on a play about the making of the movie Cleopatra,

0:40:02.480 --> 0:40:04.560
<v Speaker 2>which is the thing that I have been having the

0:40:04.600 --> 0:40:06.920
<v Speaker 2>most fun with and I'm going to write about isis.

0:40:07.040 --> 0:40:09.319
<v Speaker 1>So those well, okay, that's what I wanted to tell

0:40:09.960 --> 0:40:11.880
<v Speaker 1>when you say I'm going to write about isis?

0:40:12.000 --> 0:40:15.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I can't talk about it too much, but I.

0:40:16.080 --> 0:40:18.000
<v Speaker 1>Is this more about religious fanaticism for you?

0:40:18.200 --> 0:40:22.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, in part it is. I'm fascinated by the fact

0:40:22.680 --> 0:40:26.479
<v Speaker 2>that the entire fabric of civilization can simply be ripped away.

0:40:27.120 --> 0:40:30.240
<v Speaker 2>And you know that barbarism is just under the sheets

0:40:30.719 --> 0:40:34.600
<v Speaker 2>and in most grotesque fashion. You know, we look back

0:40:34.640 --> 0:40:37.760
<v Speaker 2>in the twentieth century and you see Nazism and people,

0:40:37.920 --> 0:40:41.440
<v Speaker 2>how did that happen? Well, you know now it's happening again.

0:40:41.880 --> 0:40:45.880
<v Speaker 2>It's a mystery when these things occur, that human nature

0:40:45.880 --> 0:40:50.000
<v Speaker 2>can encompass such savagery. But it's right there in front

0:40:50.040 --> 0:40:55.400
<v Speaker 2>of you, and it's and it's also it's a fact

0:40:55.440 --> 0:40:58.640
<v Speaker 2>of human nature that people are drawn to it. And

0:40:58.680 --> 0:41:01.359
<v Speaker 2>that's whatses my curiosity.

0:41:01.440 --> 0:41:04.719
<v Speaker 1>Do you think that when you look at isis do

0:41:04.800 --> 0:41:06.319
<v Speaker 1>you think that people I just want to get your

0:41:06.360 --> 0:41:08.359
<v Speaker 1>general comment about this. Do you think that people over

0:41:08.400 --> 0:41:13.080
<v Speaker 1>there isis I should say? And whoever the next isis is?

0:41:13.120 --> 0:41:15.200
<v Speaker 1>It seems to have another They seem to be opening

0:41:15.239 --> 0:41:18.120
<v Speaker 1>up a new show over there every eighteen months or year.

0:41:19.080 --> 0:41:21.920
<v Speaker 1>Do you think that they just hate our guts that

0:41:22.000 --> 0:41:25.240
<v Speaker 1>the United States viewed as a hero of the United

0:41:25.239 --> 0:41:28.680
<v Speaker 1>States viewed as an answer the United States viewed as

0:41:28.680 --> 0:41:32.080
<v Speaker 1>a good guy? Is this just more of people wanted

0:41:32.120 --> 0:41:34.160
<v Speaker 1>to send us some kind of message about US foreign power.

0:41:34.200 --> 0:41:36.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it has as much to do with us,

0:41:36.120 --> 0:41:39.880
<v Speaker 2>although I think Iraq our eventors in Iraq where it was,

0:41:40.120 --> 0:41:43.279
<v Speaker 2>you know, that's what broke the egg, and I don't

0:41:43.280 --> 0:41:45.399
<v Speaker 2>think we would be looking at what we're seeing now.

0:41:45.440 --> 0:41:49.040
<v Speaker 2>But what the whole region what worries me about isis

0:41:49.760 --> 0:41:54.840
<v Speaker 2>is that everything that holds the Middle East together is

0:41:54.880 --> 0:41:59.359
<v Speaker 2>breaking apart. The states are failing. You know, I've been

0:41:59.400 --> 0:42:03.160
<v Speaker 2>in Syria before and it was to me the least

0:42:03.800 --> 0:42:07.560
<v Speaker 2>religious Arab country that I'd ever been in. So it's

0:42:07.680 --> 0:42:12.319
<v Speaker 2>quite surprising to see, you know, this Islamist uh savagery

0:42:12.360 --> 0:42:16.360
<v Speaker 2>going on right there. And yeah, I just I was

0:42:16.440 --> 0:42:18.680
<v Speaker 2>I was taken aback by it. But you know, I

0:42:18.960 --> 0:42:21.520
<v Speaker 2>spent a lot of time in Egypt and Saudi Arabia

0:42:21.800 --> 0:42:25.800
<v Speaker 2>and places like that, and I know that they're not strong,

0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:31.680
<v Speaker 2>resilient governments and they are very fractured societies. And in

0:42:31.719 --> 0:42:35.440
<v Speaker 2>that environment, we saw what happened in Iraq. You know,

0:42:35.800 --> 0:42:41.520
<v Speaker 2>just almost overnight, uh, this band of marauders uh takes

0:42:41.560 --> 0:42:46.120
<v Speaker 2>over an area of the size of the United Kingdom. Well, Jesus,

0:42:46.280 --> 0:42:48.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, how did that happen? And will it spread?

0:42:49.200 --> 0:42:53.000
<v Speaker 2>Will these societies be able because we can't stop it.

0:42:53.000 --> 0:42:56.960
<v Speaker 2>It's going to be up to uh Sunni societies in

0:42:57.000 --> 0:43:00.000
<v Speaker 2>the Arab world to stop it themselves, and I don't

0:43:00.160 --> 0:43:04.160
<v Speaker 2>have confidence that they can. That's what concerns me. The

0:43:04.239 --> 0:43:09.200
<v Speaker 2>problem becomes when you identify yourself so much with your

0:43:09.320 --> 0:43:13.239
<v Speaker 2>religion rather than your country or your family or so on.

0:43:13.719 --> 0:43:17.400
<v Speaker 2>That becomes the sole basis of your identity. And it's

0:43:17.440 --> 0:43:22.359
<v Speaker 2>a real problem in Europe right now for marginalized young

0:43:22.400 --> 0:43:25.120
<v Speaker 2>men who don't feel like they are a part of

0:43:25.480 --> 0:43:26.440
<v Speaker 2>French society.

0:43:26.560 --> 0:43:27.160
<v Speaker 1>For instance.

0:43:27.200 --> 0:43:30.680
<v Speaker 2>You know, there may be eight to ten percent of

0:43:30.719 --> 0:43:34.360
<v Speaker 2>the population of France is Muslim. Sixty percent of the

0:43:34.360 --> 0:43:38.560
<v Speaker 2>prisoners are So can you imagine a better example of

0:43:38.600 --> 0:43:42.880
<v Speaker 2>how marginalized a group of people is in a country.

0:43:43.160 --> 0:43:47.000
<v Speaker 2>And clearly France has done a horrible job of trying

0:43:47.040 --> 0:43:50.399
<v Speaker 2>to integrate these people into their societies. And it's not

0:43:50.520 --> 0:43:53.600
<v Speaker 2>just the fault of the French government. I'm holding you know,

0:43:53.640 --> 0:43:57.840
<v Speaker 2>those Muslims responsible as well for not participating more fully

0:43:58.280 --> 0:44:01.120
<v Speaker 2>in the countries that have adopted them. But this is

0:44:01.200 --> 0:44:04.160
<v Speaker 2>a this is a profound problem, and it's going to

0:44:04.239 --> 0:44:08.080
<v Speaker 2>last a long time, and I feel, you know, that

0:44:08.200 --> 0:44:12.000
<v Speaker 2>we can't solve it ourselves, and if we try to

0:44:12.160 --> 0:44:16.440
<v Speaker 2>solve it, it'll it'll rebound on us in a profound way.

0:44:16.600 --> 0:44:19.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying we should disengage entirely, but we should

0:44:19.840 --> 0:44:23.520
<v Speaker 2>be honest about the limits of our ability to resolve

0:44:23.840 --> 0:44:26.680
<v Speaker 2>a problem that is essentially a function of the societies

0:44:26.680 --> 0:44:27.080
<v Speaker 2>that is.

0:44:27.040 --> 0:44:30.120
<v Speaker 1>In I know you're not a writer in the Halveston

0:44:30.280 --> 0:44:33.080
<v Speaker 1>tradition where you're going to inhabit some institution. But if

0:44:33.080 --> 0:44:36.799
<v Speaker 1>I can be so bold to recommend the next fanatical

0:44:37.120 --> 0:44:40.439
<v Speaker 1>reality that Lawrence Wright should inhabit and write a book about,

0:44:40.680 --> 0:44:42.520
<v Speaker 1>I'd love to see your book about the Pentagon.

0:44:42.840 --> 0:44:44.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's an interesting I see.

0:44:44.360 --> 0:44:47.120
<v Speaker 1>You write a book about the Pentagon from top to bottom.

0:44:47.360 --> 0:44:49.440
<v Speaker 1>You'll give me the rights to do it with HBO.

0:44:49.520 --> 0:44:51.800
<v Speaker 1>I can play portray us or someone. We'll have a

0:44:51.840 --> 0:44:52.359
<v Speaker 1>great time.

0:44:52.640 --> 0:44:53.759
<v Speaker 2>Well, that'd be great.

0:44:53.800 --> 0:44:54.959
<v Speaker 1>We'll we'll have a lot of fun.

0:44:55.040 --> 0:44:55.960
<v Speaker 2>So you're attached.

0:44:56.400 --> 0:45:00.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm attached. I'm such a fan of your writing. That's

0:45:00.480 --> 0:45:02.360
<v Speaker 1>an easy yes. The answer is yes, I'm attached.

0:45:02.440 --> 0:45:03.360
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that's good to know.

0:45:07.520 --> 0:45:11.359
<v Speaker 1>If you also appreciate Lawrence Wright's work, there's a lot

0:45:11.400 --> 0:45:16.279
<v Speaker 1>more to consume. Nine books, five plays, countless articles. The

0:45:16.360 --> 0:45:21.080
<v Speaker 1>documentary film based on his book Going Clear, Scientology, Hollywood

0:45:21.160 --> 0:45:24.480
<v Speaker 1>and the Prison of Belief is currently available on HBO

0:45:24.600 --> 0:45:29.000
<v Speaker 1>on Demand and HBO Go. And if you're ever in Austin,

0:45:29.400 --> 0:45:31.759
<v Speaker 1>you might be able to catch him playing keyboard in

0:45:31.800 --> 0:45:41.560
<v Speaker 1>the Blues Collective Who Doo. Wright said of playing in

0:45:41.600 --> 0:45:44.520
<v Speaker 1>a band quote, I decided a while ago that I

0:45:44.520 --> 0:45:47.960
<v Speaker 1>would only do things that are really important or really fun.

0:45:48.360 --> 0:45:52.480
<v Speaker 1>This is really fun. This is Alec Baldwin you're listening to.

0:45:52.600 --> 0:46:06.640
<v Speaker 1>Here's the thing