1 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 2 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policymakers, and performers, to 3 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: hear their stories. What inspires their creations, what decisions change 4 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: their careers, what relationships influenced their work. My guest today, 5 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: author Lawrence Wright thinks a lot about religion. He wants 6 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: to know why people choose one faith over another, especially 7 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: when what they choose seems quote absurd or dangerous to 8 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: an outsider. This question has led Right to investigate some 9 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: of the world's most complicated and secretive organizations, from the 10 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: People's Temple in Jonestown to the Church of Scientology. His 11 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: book on Al Qaeda won the Pulitzer Prize in two 12 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: thousand and seven. Lawrence Wright has a unique firsthand experience 13 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: as to the power of belief. 14 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 2: I grew up in Dallas in the Methodist Church, and 15 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 2: it was despite the fact that Methodism doesn't have a 16 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 2: reputation as being kind of a you know, hell fire 17 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 2: and Brimstone, the first of the churches that we went 18 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 2: to in Dallas really was that, and then we graduated 19 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: to the Methodist Church downtown. My dad taught Sunday school 20 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 2: for many, many years. You know, Dallas back at that 21 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 2: time was the most pious city in America. We had 22 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 2: the largest Methodist, Baptist I think, the largest Episcopal church, 23 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: and one of the largest Catholic churches in the entire country. 24 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: And at the same time we had the highest murder 25 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 2: rate and the highest divorce rate, you know, all the 26 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: things that go along with excess piety. Yeah, so it was, 27 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: and I was very pious as a teenager. I was 28 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 2: in a group called Young Life. 29 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: And genuinely or you were responding to pressure. 30 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: No, I was, well, there was part of those things. 31 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 2: It was you know, I had moved around a lot, 32 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: as my dad was a banker and we moved quite 33 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 2: a lot, and it was hard for me to establish roots. 34 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 2: So when I got to Dallas and this, you know, 35 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: Young Life came up. It was a social club for me. 36 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 2: But also it was the first time I understood the 37 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: you can binge yourself into the shape of the organization 38 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 2: the way it wants you to be. And also the 39 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: more pious you are, sort of the higher you climb, 40 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 2: the more important. So I got to be a part 41 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 2: of it. Yeah, well you say those things, and it's 42 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 2: and you want to believe them. I was not consciously 43 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 2: trying to deceive anyone. At the same time, you know 44 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: what to say, your. 45 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: Heart felt and you're genuine, but at the same time 46 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: you realize that there's a there's an approval system here. Yeah. 47 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 2: And I think that that experience was formative in some 48 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: ways for me to be so interested in religious matters 49 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 2: and why you know, I people are always, you know, reporters, 50 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 2: especially fascinated by politics. But you can have strong political 51 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: views and it doesn't affect your life at all, But 52 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: if you have strong religious views, they probably dictate much 53 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 2: of your behavior. It's puzzling to me why with most 54 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 2: journalists it's just embarrassing to ask about what people believe 55 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: because it's not supposed to matter. 56 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: Did you leave the area to go to college, did you? Yeah? 57 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 2: I went to Tulane in New Orleans, which was a 58 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 2: city least like Dallas that I could find, and you 59 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 2: could buy beer and woolworst and you could drink at eighteen, 60 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: and you know, a lot of things. 61 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: Not very pious. The well in arts school. 62 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: By that time, I kind of shed that, but I 63 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: was actively looking for a way to live a more 64 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 2: bohemian life. I felt very constricted in Dallas. 65 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: Was writing something that was on your mind even at 66 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: an early age? 67 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah. In college I took a creative writing class. 68 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 2: You know, I was not a. 69 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: Distant school paper. No. 70 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 2: I used to like doing that stuff though. And then 71 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 2: after I graduated, you know, the Vietnam War was going on, 72 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 2: and I became a conscientious objector and spent two years 73 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 2: of alternative service teaching in Cairo, and that's where I 74 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 2: became involved for the first time with the Arab world. 75 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: And when the boy from Dallas becomes a conscientious objector, 76 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 1: how did that go off back home? 77 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 2: You know, I my dad was a war hero, and 78 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 2: I wanted to be like him. I was in rotc. 79 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 2: I expected, you know, to follow in his footsteps. But 80 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: you know, there was this parallel problem going on, which 81 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: was the Vietnam War, which was despicable, different war, and 82 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 2: it was a bad war. And you know, for a person, 83 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: a young man like me who wanted to serve his 84 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: country but did not want to kill people for the 85 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 2: wrong reason or risk my life for something I didn't 86 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 2: believe in, it just was a terrible My father and 87 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 2: I I had horrible, horrible fights about Vietnam. 88 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: Do you have any brothers. 89 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 2: No, I had two younger sisters. 90 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: So you were it. You were the yeah scion. Yeah. 91 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: Did you ever make peace with them about that? Yeah? 92 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: You know. 93 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 2: I wrote a memoir about growing up in Dallas during 94 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 2: the Kennedy assassination in America during the Vietnam Era. In 95 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 2: the process of doing that, I talked to my parents 96 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 2: a lot, and I let them read the manuscript and 97 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: it was a very healing experience for all of us. 98 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 1: I think, when does writing become a career decision for you? 99 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 2: When I came back from Egypt in nineteen seventy one, 100 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: I decided that I was going to write an article 101 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 2: for it. I decided I was going to write an 102 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: article for the New Yorker. I hadn't contacted them, and they, no, 103 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 2: they had no idea. My folks had a little lake 104 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 2: cabin up in Equipment, Texas, in East Texas, and so 105 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: my wife and I moved out there for six months 106 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,799 Speaker 2: while I wrote letter from Cairo, and there. 107 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: Was a report from Yeah. 108 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: So there it was an RFD, you know mail, and 109 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 2: there was we had a little you know box out 110 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 2: on the road where you raise the red flag and 111 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 2: the mailman stops and I sent my manuscript into the 112 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 2: New Yorker. I'm sure this isn't true, but it seemed 113 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 2: that it came back the next day from equipment Texas 114 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 2: to mister Shawn's desk to back the equipment with a 115 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 2: you know, a little rejection card in there. And that was, 116 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 2: you know, my first attempt at becoming a writer. It 117 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: would it would be many, many years later that I 118 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 2: actually got a chance to write for The New Yorker. 119 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: You're in Cairo, you're married. 120 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 2: You know, this is an odd story because you know, 121 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 2: I went in to I had to get a job 122 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: that was fifty miles from my home, and that wasn't 123 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 2: a problem I wanted. I was so sick of America 124 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 2: at that time, and the argument over the war was 125 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,359 Speaker 2: so devastating, and I just wanted to get as far 126 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 2: away as I could. And it had to pay very little, 127 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: and it had to be nominally in the service of 128 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 2: the United States, so I uh, and the bedpen jobs 129 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: were all taken, which normally is what a conscientious objector does, 130 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: but this was during the Nixon recession, and those were 131 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 2: all taken. So I thought I would go to the 132 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 2: un and you know, get a job and they send 133 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 2: me far far away. And I went to the UNN 134 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: and they said, no, we don't do that. But here's 135 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: a list of American institutions abroad. Okay, I mean one 136 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 2: of them. American University in Cairo had an office across 137 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 2: the street at eight sixty six un Plaza. And do 138 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: you remember Huntington Hartford and Show magazine here? I thought 139 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: you might. Well, you know, he had a famous office, 140 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: and I realized they was in the same building. And 141 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 2: I thought, I'll go over and peek into Huntington Hartford's 142 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 2: office and then I'll go upstairs and ask for a job. 143 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 2: So I did that, and you know, I walked in 144 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 2: and I didn't I knew that there had been a 145 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 2: war in the Middle East, but I wasn't, you know, 146 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: it wasn't the war that I was focused on, you know, 147 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: And and I didn't know that we didn't have any 148 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: diplomatic relations with Egypt at the time. I'm not even 149 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: sure what language they spoke, but I walked in and 150 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: thirty minutes later they said can you leave tonight? And 151 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 2: I said, well, no, my girlfriend's back in Boston and 152 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 2: I haven't told my parents what I'm doing, and can 153 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 2: you leave tomorrow. Well, yeah, I can go tomorrow, so let. 154 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: Me make a couple of phone calls. There. 155 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: I went back and I told my girlfriend, now my wife, 156 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 2: I'm going to Egypt tomorrow and I don't know where 157 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 2: that leaves us, and I'll be gone for two years. 158 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 2: And then and I called my parents from JFK the 159 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 2: next morning and told him I was going to Cairo. 160 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 2: And I flew to Cairo and landed, you know, late 161 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 2: at night, and the next morning, at nine o'clock, I 162 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: taught my first class. After a couple of weeks, I 163 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,119 Speaker 2: was really missing Roberta. Back then, you didn't make telephone 164 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 2: calls or you know, international calls and stuff like that. 165 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 2: Letters were passing, and at some point I said, you 166 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: know the terms under which we left were. You know, 167 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 2: you can't go. You just couldn't live together in Egypt. 168 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 2: You know, it was a very conservative society. And if 169 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 2: I invite you to come, that means we'll get married. 170 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 2: So and you know, our letters crossed in the mail. 171 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: I asked her to come, and she said she was 172 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 2: coming anyway. And then did you name your first child Huntington? No, 173 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: but that would have been some Then the question became 174 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 2: where to get married, because there was this idea that 175 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 2: was swhere in the back of my mind that if 176 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 2: I got married in Egypt under Islamic law, I could 177 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 2: have the additional three wives, which was an option. I 178 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 2: wasn't sure that I wanted to exercise, but you know, 179 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 2: it could be. You know, it's a contingency. I don't 180 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 2: think I have the management skills. Yeah, over there, they 181 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 2: insist you be married. You can be married as many 182 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 2: times as you want, you know, or they dis insisted 183 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 2: that you'll be married. So you're there for two usually 184 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 2: come back, yeah, and then what happens? Then I talked 185 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 2: the start the long road of trying to start a 186 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 2: career as a writer, and you moved to where. The 187 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 2: first job I got was in Nashville for the race 188 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 2: relations reporter. I was the only writer for a long time. 189 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 2: But we would go into situations where, you know, there 190 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: was racial conflict and oftentimes the local press was biased 191 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 2: or not paying attention to it, and so it might 192 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 2: be about you know, the civil rights movement in the South, 193 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 2: or Indians. You know, the Indian movement was underway at 194 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 2: the time. School desegregation was very active, all those things. 195 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 2: I got a chance to write about it taught me 196 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 2: quite a lot about how you know, to actually write 197 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 2: an article is a matter of being plunged into it. 198 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: Was there a mentor you had then. 199 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: A very crazy editor named Jim Leeson in Nashville. 200 00:10:59,600 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. 201 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: Him. It was a strange man, and he the whole 202 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 2: culture was a little strange, to be honest. I Jim 203 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 2: when I went to apply for the job, I was 204 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 2: a pretty good tennis player, and he asked about that, 205 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: and so he asked if we could play tennis the 206 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 2: next day. So I show up in my tennis duds 207 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 2: and he goes out and plays me in his street shoes, 208 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 2: and of course I beat him pretty soundly. But still 209 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 2: the notion that he would play tennis and street shoes 210 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 2: was and he wound up firing me when I wrote 211 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: a memo suggesting that we reorganized the I was probably 212 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 2: I deserve to be fired, imagine. So, but it was 213 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 2: a it was another test to be plunged into the 214 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 2: freelance market. 215 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: I first became familiar with you and you're writing in 216 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: the Olympia Washington story. The piece was entitled Remembering Satan, 217 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: which you wrote as a book as well. These were 218 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: excerpts in the book. There was a two part lengthy 219 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: excerpt in the edition of The New Yorker, and I 220 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: first became familiar with you, And I mean I was 221 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: just supposed, you know, like knocked out by this piece. 222 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: I thought, how on earth is this possible? Was this 223 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: the first such piece you wrote, the Olympia piece. 224 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 2: No, I think I had written about you know, a 225 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 2: lot of different even wrote about Satanists, and you know, 226 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 2: people of all sorts of I mean, if you're a 227 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: reporter and you have a passport to write about anybody, 228 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 2: and I took full advantage of that. But that remembering 229 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: satan is kind of a stereotypical type of article that 230 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 2: I like to write about, which is, for one thing, 231 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 2: it's a discreet world, you know. In this case, it was, 232 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 2: you know, this world inside Olympia, Washington that had been 233 00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 2: infected by these hysterical memories of Satanic ritual abuse which 234 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 2: never occurred. But a man was convicted of these crimes. 235 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: He confessed to them because he remembered them, and there 236 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 2: was other than his memory. There was no evidence of it. 237 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: If I remember correctly. No one else was sentenced to prison. 238 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 2: Only Paul went to prison. 239 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: What's his relationship with his family now or do you 240 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: even know it's very broken as far as I haven't 241 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 1: talked to Paul in a couple of years. 242 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 2: But you know he's married again. You know, he started 243 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 2: another life. But you know, it's an example of how 244 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 2: the mind can be so persuaded of, you know, a 245 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 2: false reality that. 246 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: Everybody is capable of. 247 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 2: That I don't know if I would say that. 248 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: To whatever degree, not capable of that, but creating a 249 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: false reality. 250 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 2: One of the things that has been an education to 251 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: me as a reporter when I'm out interviewing people that 252 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: have been for instance, in out Kaida or you know, 253 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 2: people that have come out of you know, I interviewed 254 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 2: the children of Jim Jones, and you know, I talked 255 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 2: to people who went into scientology. They're not crazy people, 256 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 2: then they're not stupid, and you know they're they're often 257 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 2: you know, if there's a commonality, there's idealism of you know, 258 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 2: there a longing to make, you know, change history, make 259 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 2: something of yourself, and that's you know, maybe that's one 260 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 2: of the most dangerous elements of our human nature, is 261 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 2: that we it's the better parts of our nature that 262 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 2: sometimes lead us into real dangerous areas. 263 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: We were the better parts of the natures of Jones's children. 264 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 2: Well you know they were. They were essentially captive to him. 265 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: So but and they survived, thank god. They were all 266 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 2: playing basketball in a tournament in Georgetown, Guyana, So they 267 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: weren't killings when when the killings went down. But the 268 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: it's always to me, it is always underscored the danger 269 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: of these kinds of fanatical belief systems. There were these 270 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: three boys, two adopted. Stephen was a natural son and 271 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: he looked very much like his father, Jim Jones, with 272 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 2: the kind of Cherokee cheek bones, and he's very tall 273 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 2: and striking, handsome man. And then there was Jim Jones Junior, 274 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 2: who was black and adopted adopted. And then the third 275 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 2: adopted son was Tim, who is this big red headed guy. Tim. 276 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 2: These boys when I talked to him, Waco was going 277 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 2: on at that time, the Branch Davidian episode, and Tina 278 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 2: Brown was the editor of the New Yorker, and she 279 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 2: wanted me to go to Waco. And I said, they're 280 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 2: more reporters in Waco than there are Branch Davidians. I 281 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 2: just but I was. I was convinced that this must. 282 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 2: You know, I'd seen the children, some of the children 283 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 2: that were sent out. I thought that this must have 284 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 2: happened before. And I found these three boys who had 285 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 2: never then grown men, never told their story before. And 286 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 2: I don't know why they were willing to talk to me. 287 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: But Tim, when I got to him, he demanded that 288 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: we stood in a restaurant, in a public place, because 289 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 2: he didn't want to cry, and he had never told 290 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 2: his wife, his current wife, what had happened. Man, He 291 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: wanted to say this story one time. Now, bear in mind, 292 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 2: Tim Jones is a massive fellow. He can press one 293 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 2: hundred pounds with either arm. You know, he has an 294 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: immense physical presence. And we went to the restaurant and 295 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 2: within a few minutes he was pounding the table and sobbing. 296 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 2: Because Tim is the one who had to go into 297 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 2: the jungle and identify nine hundred people, his real parents, 298 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 2: his adoptive parents, his wife at the time, and his children, 299 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 2: everybody lying on the ground. And it makes an impression. 300 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: Did he ever confide to you or even just discussed 301 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: to you what he thought was going on there? What 302 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: he thought. 303 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: They all knew that their dad was crazy and that 304 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 2: this was what was he doing there. You know, he 305 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 2: was giving these suicide drills regularly. You know, they break out. 306 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: The what was the purpose of Jonestown. 307 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 2: Well, they stated purpose was to they were Jones was 308 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 2: intensely paranoid. He had the feeling that the government was 309 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 2: persecuting him, which was not really true at all. But 310 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: one night the entire church disappeared. You know, they all 311 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,479 Speaker 2: went secretly to this little South American country with it, 312 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 2: you know, in the in the middle of the jungle. 313 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 2: They've been preparing it. The boys are religious Utopia, the yeah, 314 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 2: and it was just a you know, it was like 315 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 2: a you know, a little summer camp type of thing. 316 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 2: They've built quantcet huts and so on, and they were 317 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: living near a river and they built an airstrip. 318 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: I remember reading on this thing online where they said 319 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: that Jonestown was this training ground where they were breeding 320 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: MK ultra operatives who were capable of committing murder on 321 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: behalf of the government and then they'd have no memory 322 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 1: of it. Well, you know, I'm not saying that that's true, 323 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: but I remember reading that once. 324 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 2: I was fast when I was writing about remembering Satan, 325 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 2: when I was doing the you know, multiple personalities were 326 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: supposed to be the product of satanic ritual abuse, and 327 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 2: there was a big rise in multiple personality disorder. And 328 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 2: one of the theories was that the multiples had been 329 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 2: created by the CIA in order that one personality could 330 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 2: become a spy and you know, deliver messages that other 331 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: personalities inside the same human being wouldn't know about. 332 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 1: Lawrence Wright's New Yorker article, The Orphans of Jonestown, came 333 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: out for the fifteenth anniversary of the nineteen seventy eight 334 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: massacre that killed over nine hundred people. Listen to more 335 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: conversations with writers who take on complicated issues, like David Simon, 336 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: who wrote the TV show The Wire but started out 337 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: as the beat reporter for the Baltimore Sun. 338 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 2: I think I was very fair as a reporter. You know, 339 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 2: some of poverty is about personal responsibility, and some of 340 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 2: it is not. 341 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: Some of it is systemic and a result of societal 342 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: forces that are profound. Take a listen in our archives 343 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: at Here's the Thing dot org. This is Alec Baldwin. 344 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: You're listening to Here's the Thing. My guest, Lawrence Wright 345 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: prefers taking notes on index cards over using a computer. 346 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: You can only imagine the number of cards, right you 347 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 1: For his book Going Clear, Scientology, Hollywood and the Prison 348 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: of Belief. After it was published in twenty thirteen, documentary 349 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: filmmaker Alex Gibney asked right if he'd consider an adaptation. 350 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: We'd worked together before. You know, I had done this 351 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 2: book about al Qaeda called The Looming Tower, and I 352 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 2: had my little acting venture. I didn't want to travel 353 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 2: with it, you know, I just hate touring, you know, 354 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 2: doing the book tour thing. I had seen Anna Deavere 355 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 2: Smith do Fires in the Mirror at the Public Theater 356 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety two and was the first time I 357 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 2: could see that journalism and theater could be married. And 358 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 2: I fascinated by that. So I did a one man 359 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 2: show called My Trip to al Qaeda, and I did 360 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 2: it off Broadway for about six weeks and in a 361 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: few other cities, and Alex saw me do it in Washington. 362 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 2: We decided to make it into a documentary, which we 363 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 2: did for hb OH. We hit it off. Alex is 364 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 2: his nickname from childhood is Tiger, and his well chosen name, 365 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 2: and he's this very skillful storyteller, and it takes those 366 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 2: qualities to take something as complicated about an organizations vindictive 367 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,479 Speaker 2: and litigious as the Church of Scientology. It takes somebody 368 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 2: like Alex to put together a movie like he's just done. 369 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: One of the things I thought when I saw the film, 370 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: and I mean, all my friends and people who know 371 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: me personally, it wasn't lost on them that within about 372 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 1: a week of returning from Park City for the festival, 373 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: I went there to have a vacation with my family. 374 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,719 Speaker 1: We just tacked on an extra weekend to see some 375 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: movies because I'm a big fan of the festival, and 376 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: it wasn't lost to my friends with it. About a 377 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: week after that, I was back on a plane to 378 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: London to go shoot a film with Tom Cruise. And 379 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: Tom is a friend of mine, you know, and I 380 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: mean I consider him a friend in the business sense, 381 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: but we don't get to see each other that often. 382 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: But he's always very kind and as people who know 383 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: Tom know, he's a great person to be in the 384 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: trenches of movie making with. He's very hard working and 385 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: very very passionate about the work. But when I saw 386 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: the film, one thing I didn't get and maybe it's there, 387 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: maybe it was in the book, and maybe it's in 388 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: the film, but it was I mean I watched this 389 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: film with intense scrutiny. There wasn't any sense to me 390 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: of what are the people who are in scientology and 391 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: remain in scientology and who are dedicated to this, what 392 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: do they perceive they're getting out of it? Because I 393 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: have some opinions about that. What people have told me, Well, 394 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: what does it do for them? Why are they there? 395 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: Especially when people go into scientology, they don't you know, 396 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 2: they don't go into it because it's a cult. They 397 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 2: go into it oftentimes because they're looking for something such 398 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 2: as well, you know, sometimes they're spiritual seekers or they 399 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 2: you know, you might be one of those people that 400 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 2: goes down on the subway and someone says, would you 401 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 2: like to take our personality tests? You know, and sure, 402 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 2: Oxford capacity analysis. It sounds like, you know, might be 403 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 2: and you know, well, if we see that you have 404 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 2: a little trouble of communicating with people that's true, well 405 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 2: we you know, we can help, we can help you 406 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 2: with that. Or in the case of Paul Hagis, you know, 407 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 2: he had a girlfriend that he was having trouble with 408 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 2: and say, we have a course that can help you 409 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 2: in your relationships and PA and the truth is, oftentimes 410 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 2: they can help. It's like going into therapy. People do 411 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 2: benefit from it. So this initial exposure to scientology is 412 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 2: often very positive to people. 413 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,199 Speaker 1: What about the people like Travolta, people who seem to 414 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 1: have the world on a silver platter and everything is 415 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: going their way. 416 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 2: Well, that wasn't true. When he got in. He was 417 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 2: a you know, troubled young man who was in his 418 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 2: first movie in Mexico. He confided to an actress who 419 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 2: was on the set. You know, he's having these difficulties, 420 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 2: and she was a scientologist, and she gave him some auditing, 421 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,719 Speaker 2: which is what scientology calls his therapy, and gave him 422 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 2: a copy of Diynetics and so on. He had an 423 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: experience which happens to a lot of scientologists when they're 424 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,719 Speaker 2: being audited. He went exterior. In other words, he had 425 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 2: an out of body experience. He had the sense that 426 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 2: he had left his corporal being and could look around 427 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 2: the room and you know, see things behind him and 428 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 2: so on. At the time he was taking a course, 429 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 2: when he'd tried out for this Welcome Back Cotter, the 430 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 2: teacher had everybody in the class turned their direction. I 431 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 2: think it was CBS Studios, you know, but telepathically send 432 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 2: the message to the executives that John Travolta is right 433 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 2: for the role, and he got the part. And so 434 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 2: he always credited Scientology was putting him in the big time, 435 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 2: as he said, So you know, in that sense, he 436 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 2: really did feel that it had changed his life. But 437 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 2: it's one thing to get into it, and it's another 438 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 2: thing to get out of it. If you are a star, 439 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 2: like Travolta was at one time the biggest star in 440 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 2: the world, the biggest and you have put your name 441 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 2: down again and again and again. As a Scientologist, you're 442 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 2: identified with it. 443 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: And they have tapes of you, yes, discussing your darkest moments. 444 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 2: Right like if you and I were sitting in a 445 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 2: Scientology auditing session right now, and you're my auditor, and 446 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 2: you know, and I'm holding the cans which are attached 447 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 2: to the E meter, and you're probing and asking me 448 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 2: very impersonal questions about my life and things that I 449 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 2: would not want to disclose to anyone else except in 450 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 2: this very confidential confessional atmosphereiatingly yeah, material that is actually 451 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 2: secretly recorded, sometimes videoed, and then it becomes apparent to 452 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 2: you that if you decide to leave, the church may 453 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 2: use some of that against you. And I talked that. 454 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 2: I talked to a guy whose assignment was to go 455 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 2: through all those old auditing sessions on John Travolta and 456 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 2: find stuff they could use against him because they were 457 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 2: worried that he was. 458 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,719 Speaker 1: Going he was going to go over the wall. In 459 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: the piece in the film, the one thing I found 460 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: that was disturbing was that there are celebrities and wealthy 461 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: public figures who tie a certain amount of their money 462 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: millions of dollars to this organization, a second tier, if 463 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: you will, and this is my description the second tier, 464 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: if you will, are you know, middle Americans, middle income 465 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: who often go into debt, often go into dangerous amounts 466 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: of debt and unwise amounts of debt in order to 467 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 1: pay for these orditing courses so for them to give 468 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 1: money to the church. And then there's people who are poor, 469 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: who have nothing, who wind up trading in kind services. 470 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 1: They become, you know, they become like a labor force 471 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: for them, and then they get forty cents an hour 472 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: according to the film, and they're doing a lot of 473 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: work that benefits other people. In the film, they're saying 474 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: that these people are maintaining in the hangar of cruises airplanes. 475 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 2: Well, not only maintained it, what they did was refurbish it. 476 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 2: They built all the furniture, they painted it, They you know, 477 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 2: they essentially took an empty hangar and made it into 478 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 2: an office and a place for his planes and all 479 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 2: these elaborate If you ever been in his hangar Burbank, 480 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 2: well he's got you know these you know, big decals 481 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 2: and stuff like that, you know, banners hanging down. It's 482 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 2: a pretty swank environment. And they handcrafted a limousine for him, 483 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 2: and oversaw the reconstruction of his tour bus, and they, 484 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 2: you know, refurbished his house. And these are people who 485 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 2: are paid fifty dollars a week. Many of them joined 486 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 2: as children, so you know, they're impoverished and. 487 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: They have no place to go. 488 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 2: They have, you know, and if we if they do, 489 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,479 Speaker 2: they don't know it. They Yeah, then of course may 490 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 2: be the case that their families and all are in 491 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 2: the church and if they left, none of those people 492 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: would ever speak to them again. 493 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: Do you think the people who were the beneficiaries of 494 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, do they know what's happening. 495 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no question that Tom Cruise knows what's going 496 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 2: on inside the Sea Org. And I hold Tom to account. 497 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 2: I single him out in particular. And because there are 498 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 2: only two ways that the abuses that we chronicle in 499 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 2: the movie and in my book, they are only two 500 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 2: ways that they can be addressed, and one is that 501 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 2: the IRS decides, well, maybe we should re examine that 502 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: tax exemption that we were bludgeoned and to given them 503 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 2: in nineteen nine. 504 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: Expect I'm explained for people who don't look this is 505 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: a fascinating part of the film. It was during the 506 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: time that Hubbard was alive, or was the settlement reached 507 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: after Hubbard dies After he died, and apparently he had 508 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: a brigade and raising a lot of money, and he 509 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: had a lot of cash at his disposal and was 510 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: just shelling the Irs and litigation to maintain their status. 511 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: And finally the IRS just caved and said. 512 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 2: Well, here's the situation that described what had David Misscavage 513 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: found himself in. After Hubbard died, he wrestled control of 514 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 2: this organization and Hubbard had decided not to pay the taxes, 515 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 2: and so by nineteen ninety three, the Church of Scientology 516 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 2: was a billion dollars in arrears and it didn't have 517 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 2: a billion dollars, and so this was an existential moment 518 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 2: for the church. They had to get a tax exemption. 519 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 2: And moreover, the IRS hated them because, you know, in 520 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 2: the eighties, Hubbard had infiltrated all these you know, the 521 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 2: Justice Department, the IRS, Food and Drug Administration had all 522 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 2: these Scientology spies inside the government until the FBI broke 523 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,479 Speaker 2: it open and what was called Operation snow White, and 524 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 2: twelve people went to prey and including Hubbard's wife. So 525 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 2: the IRS, among other government agencies did not look kindly 526 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 2: on the Church of Scientology. So how do you just 527 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: imagine how you would go about getting a tax exempsion 528 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 2: from the IRS. Well, the Scientology way was to launch 529 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 2: twenty four hundred lawsuits against the IRS and individual agents, 530 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: to hire private investigators to follow agents around to go 531 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 2: to conventions where they might be drinking too much or 532 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 2: fooling around. 533 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 1: I don't have a billion dollars to pay the taxes, 534 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: but I've got fifty million, two lobs some grenades at ye. 535 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, and so and they they they won, and 536 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 2: they wanted such a they one my personal feeling is twofold. 537 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 2: One is I think that the IRS just did cave 538 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,959 Speaker 2: because the deal that the deal on the table was, 539 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 2: will give you the exemption and all those lawsuits will 540 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 2: go away. And they did. 541 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: And so do they say, well, we'll give you the 542 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: exemption and take away those losses. Would you have to 543 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: pay us some amount of this money in twelve million 544 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: dollars and that's all see the IRS that's acquired. 545 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 2: And moreover, it was such an overwhelming exemption. The church 546 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 2: has manifold different entities, you know, but even Hubbard's novels 547 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 2: are considered to be scripture and taxes and in the 548 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: church now has the authority to determine which parts of 549 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 2: itself should be tax exempt. 550 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: Who was it in the film? If I remember correctly, 551 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: there's someone, I think there's an individual use site who 552 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: says to Hubbard early in his career, the only way 553 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: you're going to get riches if you started religions. 554 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 2: Oh, there were about ten people he said that too. 555 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 2: And you know, I think that Hubbard really, I think 556 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 2: he really did believe that. But let me get back 557 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 2: to that question of you know, just to touch back 558 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 2: on Tom Cruise before we finish that if the if 559 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 2: the I R S re examined after the licking it 560 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 2: took from from Scientology, if it decided to go back 561 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 2: and re examined, that that might force change inside the church. 562 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 2: But I haven't seen any evidence that the IRS has 563 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 2: the appetite to do this, although. 564 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: The Senator on the West Coast, Senator. 565 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 2: Ron Wyden, is looking into this, and so you know, 566 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 2: that's a possible. But the other way that change and 567 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 2: reform could come in Scientology is that some of the 568 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 2: celebrity megaphones turn around in the other direction and demand change. 569 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 2: And nobody has benefited more from Scientology than Tom Cruise. 570 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 2: Nobody is more identified in the public with the Church 571 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 2: of Scientology than Tom Cruise. Nobody has brought lured more 572 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 2: people into the church than Tom Cruise. If you ask 573 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 2: people name one member of the Church of Scientology, that's 574 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 2: the one ever. And moreover, it's a powerful I mean, 575 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 2: if you look at you know, he was the number 576 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 2: one box office star, so he had Travolta than Tom Cruise. 577 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,040 Speaker 2: And you know, and also Will Smith, who started a 578 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 2: Scientology school. Although he says he's not a scientologist, he 579 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,719 Speaker 2: was one of the time he was number one. So 580 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 2: you have one, two, three, the most powerful actors in 581 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 2: the most power. And if you're a young actor standing 582 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 2: out in central casting waiting to get maybe. 583 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: He's not a bad idea. If I stopped by this center. 584 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 2: Well, when you're standing in line, they'll be passing out 585 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 2: brochures saying how to get an agent, how to get 586 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 2: ahead and the business. Come to the celebrity. 587 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: Center where they make that direct link. 588 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 2: Yes, and he also back in the old days, the 589 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 2: acting schools like the Beverly Hills Playhouse was run by Yes, 590 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 2: who was my teacher. He was apparently a wonderful. 591 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: Teacher, and he was a scientologist. 592 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 2: And did he ever try to recruit you? Uh? 593 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: I think I wasn't there long enough. I was there 594 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: for under a year. I went briefly and could sell 595 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: Us was quite a character. 596 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,239 Speaker 2: He would tell me about it, and I'm fascinated by him. 597 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: Well, could sell Us He said something that, although it 598 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: was very arch and very kind of you might think 599 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: this was ego maniacal. He was nonetheless right. There was 600 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: a guy up on stage doing a scene. I was 601 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: in this class. My then girlfriend got me into the class. 602 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: This guy's up there doing a scene I'll never forget. 603 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 1: And Cadsellis is giving his notes on the scene and 604 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: the guy starts to debate him. He says, well, yeah, 605 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: I don't think it's really and Kdsellis says, I beg 606 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 1: your pardon and he says, well I don't. He goes, well, 607 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: I think it's this, and he goes what it is is? 608 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 1: And Godselli is now insisting and being a little more 609 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: because he was a very powerful guy rhetorically, and he 610 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,919 Speaker 1: goes and says it again, and the guy debates him again, 611 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 1: and Kadzelis he said, we're not here for you to 612 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 1: debate what I tell you. He said, you come here 613 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: and you pay me for me to give you my opinion. 614 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: He said, I'm not interested in your opinion. I give 615 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: you my opinion, and you listen. He turns to the classics. 616 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 1: And that's it. We don't discuss what I'm saying. This 617 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: isn't a debate. I say what I say, you listen, 618 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:08,800 Speaker 1: you write it down perhaps and we're done. And Scientology 619 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: I have found and this is I mean, I I 620 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 1: find it odd, but at the same time I find 621 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,399 Speaker 1: it kind of fascinating. And nonetheless, where Scientology says to you, 622 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,439 Speaker 1: this is what you were put on this earth to do, 623 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: and it gives you that license and that freedom. You 624 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: tell your parents, your wives, your children, everyone in your 625 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 1: life that nothing must get in the way of this thing. 626 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: This is the goose that lays the golden egg. Movie stardom. 627 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: Are you are different? There's an exceptionalistic nature to who 628 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: you are as a person. And the only way you're 629 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: going to first survive, I mean to stay in that 630 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: orbit out there, in that spaceship living that way. That's 631 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,359 Speaker 1: a very difficult thing to do. 632 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 2: And I think when so many of these young people 633 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 2: when they come, you know, it is a young person's 634 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 2: game when they get into it. So many of the 635 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 2: people that went in scientology, and this is true of 636 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 2: anybody that tries to become an actor. Many people who 637 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 2: try to become actors, they leave high school. They don't 638 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 2: go to college. You have to go right away. 639 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 1: Nearly everyone we're talking about is uneducated. 640 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:15,240 Speaker 2: Yes, and so you're in your vulnerable intellectually vulnerable. And 641 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 2: also you are risking everything. Your friends are going off, 642 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 2: they're going to get law degrees and stuff like that, 643 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 2: and you are out in you know, Hollywood, eating dog food, 644 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 2: hoping to be a movie star. There's a sense of 645 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 2: inadequacy that you haven't filled in the great blanks that 646 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 2: all your friends are doing. And so you along come scientologists, 647 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 2: which says. 648 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: Why bother, none of that matters. 649 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, we can, you can supersede all that, because well 650 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 2: we will get all you will. You will learn the 651 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 2: secrets of the universe, and you'll acquire superhuman powers. And 652 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 2: that's and also just being noticed at all at that 653 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 2: level is you know, very powerful, because you know, I'm 654 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 2: sure you've done this a million times. But I remember 655 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 2: once when I was out in La and I was 656 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 2: at Norman Lear's company, and I walked into a room 657 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,799 Speaker 2: in the lobby and there were about forty guys who 658 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 2: were blonde and six foot two and extremely handsome, and 659 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 2: I felt small and brown, and you know, but there 660 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 2: was a sign saying no actors passed this point. And 661 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 2: I was able to walk past this point, and all 662 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,919 Speaker 2: those blue eyes turned in my direction, and I thought, 663 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 2: one of those guys, one of those guys is going 664 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 2: to have his life change, and everybody else is going 665 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 2: to go home and some of them become lawnmowers or 666 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 2: something like that. But that's the risk to have the 667 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 2: Church of Scientology come along, maybe in that same room 668 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 2: and passing out brochure is saying that we can help you. 669 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 2: And by the way, on the brochure that might have 670 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 2: a picture of Tom Cruise or somebody like that is 671 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 2: a very powerful lure. 672 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: And here's people who say to you, you are different, 673 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: Just be different, Just accept it, don't fight. Where you're 674 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: going to go right now is extremely unusual for the 675 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: average person's going to be very rarefied atmosphere. Stay calm 676 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: in the pocket, and you're going to throw the football 677 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: one hundred yards down the field. You're going to score 678 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:12,839 Speaker 1: the winning touchdown. Don't get in the way of your 679 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: own success. And I have seen many of the people 680 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 1: I know who are really prominent in scientology, they just 681 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: that's what it did for them. What clarity was for 682 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: them was this is who I am in a macho 683 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: and anybody that tried to make you think what you 684 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: were doing was less valid or less substantial, or less meaningful, 685 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: or it was silly or whatever. 686 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,879 Speaker 2: These guys look and what you're saying, what do they 687 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 2: get out of it? There is you know, this is 688 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 2: you know a sense of solidity of your identity, belonging. 689 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 2: And what's so confounding about scientology in many ways is that, 690 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 2: you know, it promises you that you will become more 691 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 2: yourself and that you will achieve all this freedom of thought, 692 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 2: and that you you know, you'll become saner and healthier 693 00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 2: and so. 694 00:38:58,080 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 1: On, but shed your past. 695 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 2: What happened so often is the very opposite. You know, 696 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 2: you be kind of you become kind of enslaved to 697 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 2: the mentality and you're not allowed to think freely. You know. 698 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 2: One of the things that was so striking to me 699 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 2: about Paul Haggis, who is a very skeptical, imaginative, curious person. 700 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 2: But he was in the church for thirty five years 701 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 2: and for thirty four of those years he never heard 702 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 2: a disparaging word about scientology, never looked on the internet, 703 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 2: he never read any of those stories because he was 704 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 2: told not to, and he didn't. He was just as 705 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 2: obedient as all those other people because he was told. 706 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: It was for his intellectual curiosity. Go regarding that, Yeah, 707 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 1: what is the thing you're working on now? 708 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 2: Well, I'm doing you know. I did another book about 709 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 2: Camp David the Carter begins the Dot Thing, which had 710 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 2: a play and I'm now going to do it as 711 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 2: a movie for HBO, and I'm doing a pilot for 712 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 2: HBO on Texas politics right and I'm working with Bob 713 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,359 Speaker 2: Balaban on a play about the making of the movie Cleopatra, 714 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 2: which is the thing that I have been having the 715 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 2: most fun with and I'm going to write about isis. 716 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 1: So those well, okay, that's what I wanted to tell 717 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: when you say I'm going to write about isis? 718 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't talk about it too much, but I. 719 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: Is this more about religious fanaticism for you? 720 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 2: Well, in part it is. I'm fascinated by the fact 721 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,479 Speaker 2: that the entire fabric of civilization can simply be ripped away. 722 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,240 Speaker 2: And you know that barbarism is just under the sheets 723 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 2: and in most grotesque fashion. You know, we look back 724 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,760 Speaker 2: in the twentieth century and you see Nazism and people, 725 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 2: how did that happen? Well, you know now it's happening again. 726 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 2: It's a mystery when these things occur, that human nature 727 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 2: can encompass such savagery. But it's right there in front 728 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:55,400 Speaker 2: of you, and it's and it's also it's a fact 729 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 2: of human nature that people are drawn to it. And 730 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 2: that's whatses my curiosity. 731 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 1: Do you think that when you look at isis do 732 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,319 Speaker 1: you think that people I just want to get your 733 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,359 Speaker 1: general comment about this. Do you think that people over 734 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: there isis I should say? And whoever the next isis is? 735 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: It seems to have another They seem to be opening 736 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: up a new show over there every eighteen months or year. 737 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: Do you think that they just hate our guts that 738 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,240 Speaker 1: the United States viewed as a hero of the United 739 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: States viewed as an answer the United States viewed as 740 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 1: a good guy? Is this just more of people wanted 741 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: to send us some kind of message about US foreign power. 742 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 2: I don't think it has as much to do with us, 743 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 2: although I think Iraq our eventors in Iraq where it was, 744 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,279 Speaker 2: you know, that's what broke the egg, and I don't 745 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,399 Speaker 2: think we would be looking at what we're seeing now. 746 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 2: But what the whole region what worries me about isis 747 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 2: is that everything that holds the Middle East together is 748 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:59,359 Speaker 2: breaking apart. The states are failing. You know, I've been 749 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 2: in Syria before and it was to me the least 750 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 2: religious Arab country that I'd ever been in. So it's 751 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 2: quite surprising to see, you know, this Islamist uh savagery 752 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,360 Speaker 2: going on right there. And yeah, I just I was 753 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 2: I was taken aback by it. But you know, I 754 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 2: spent a lot of time in Egypt and Saudi Arabia 755 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,800 Speaker 2: and places like that, and I know that they're not strong, 756 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 2: resilient governments and they are very fractured societies. And in 757 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 2: that environment, we saw what happened in Iraq. You know, 758 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 2: just almost overnight, uh, this band of marauders uh takes 759 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 2: over an area of the size of the United Kingdom. Well, Jesus, 760 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,800 Speaker 2: you know, how did that happen? And will it spread? 761 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 2: Will these societies be able because we can't stop it. 762 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 2: It's going to be up to uh Sunni societies in 763 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 2: the Arab world to stop it themselves, and I don't 764 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 2: have confidence that they can. That's what concerns me. The 765 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 2: problem becomes when you identify yourself so much with your 766 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 2: religion rather than your country or your family or so on. 767 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,400 Speaker 2: That becomes the sole basis of your identity. And it's 768 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:22,359 Speaker 2: a real problem in Europe right now for marginalized young 769 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 2: men who don't feel like they are a part of 770 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:26,440 Speaker 2: French society. 771 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 1: For instance. 772 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 2: You know, there may be eight to ten percent of 773 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,360 Speaker 2: the population of France is Muslim. Sixty percent of the 774 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 2: prisoners are So can you imagine a better example of 775 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:42,880 Speaker 2: how marginalized a group of people is in a country. 776 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 2: And clearly France has done a horrible job of trying 777 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,399 Speaker 2: to integrate these people into their societies. And it's not 778 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 2: just the fault of the French government. I'm holding you know, 779 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:57,840 Speaker 2: those Muslims responsible as well for not participating more fully 780 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 2: in the countries that have adopted them. But this is 781 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 2: a this is a profound problem, and it's going to 782 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 2: last a long time, and I feel, you know, that 783 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 2: we can't solve it ourselves, and if we try to 784 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 2: solve it, it'll it'll rebound on us in a profound way. 785 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,840 Speaker 2: I'm not saying we should disengage entirely, but we should 786 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 2: be honest about the limits of our ability to resolve 787 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 2: a problem that is essentially a function of the societies 788 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 2: that is. 789 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,120 Speaker 1: In I know you're not a writer in the Halveston 790 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,080 Speaker 1: tradition where you're going to inhabit some institution. But if 791 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,799 Speaker 1: I can be so bold to recommend the next fanatical 792 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,439 Speaker 1: reality that Lawrence Wright should inhabit and write a book about, 793 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:42,520 Speaker 1: I'd love to see your book about the Pentagon. 794 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 2: Oh that's an interesting I see. 795 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: You write a book about the Pentagon from top to bottom. 796 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 1: You'll give me the rights to do it with HBO. 797 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:51,800 Speaker 1: I can play portray us or someone. We'll have a 798 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:52,359 Speaker 1: great time. 799 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:53,759 Speaker 2: Well, that'd be great. 800 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:54,959 Speaker 1: We'll we'll have a lot of fun. 801 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:55,960 Speaker 2: So you're attached. 802 00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,480 Speaker 1: I'm attached. I'm such a fan of your writing. That's 803 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,360 Speaker 1: an easy yes. The answer is yes, I'm attached. 804 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:03,360 Speaker 2: Okay, that's good to know. 805 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,359 Speaker 1: If you also appreciate Lawrence Wright's work, there's a lot 806 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:16,279 Speaker 1: more to consume. Nine books, five plays, countless articles. The 807 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 1: documentary film based on his book Going Clear, Scientology, Hollywood 808 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,480 Speaker 1: and the Prison of Belief is currently available on HBO 809 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:29,000 Speaker 1: on Demand and HBO Go. And if you're ever in Austin, 810 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 1: you might be able to catch him playing keyboard in 811 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:41,560 Speaker 1: the Blues Collective Who Doo. Wright said of playing in 812 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 1: a band quote, I decided a while ago that I 813 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,960 Speaker 1: would only do things that are really important or really fun. 814 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 1: This is really fun. This is Alec Baldwin you're listening to. 815 00:45:52,600 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: Here's the thing