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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for Session three seventy seven of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm Antonia Hilton and I'm on the Therapy for Black

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Speaker 3: Girls Podcast. I'm in session today unpacking my journey as

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Speaker 3: a Black woman in journalism.

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Speaker 1: In previous episodes of the podcast, we've made it a

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Speaker 1: point to highlight the experiences of black women professionals who

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Speaker 1: are blazing new paths in their respective fields. This week,

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Speaker 1: we're offering insights into the field of journalism and media.

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Speaker 1: Joined by Peabody and two time Emmy Award winning journalist

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Speaker 1: Antonia Hilton. As a correspondent at NBC News, Antonia reports

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Speaker 1: on politics and civil rights, in addition to co hosting

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Speaker 1: the hit podcast south Lake and Grapevine. She graduated magna

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Speaker 1: cum lati from Harvard University, where she received prizes for

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Speaker 1: her investigative research on race, mass incarcera, and the history

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Speaker 1: of psychiatry. During our conversation, we discussed the nuances of

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Speaker 1: being a black woman in the journalism industry, how to

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Speaker 1: protect your mental health when working on difficult stories, and

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Speaker 1: the important role that black women journalists will play as

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Speaker 1: we enter this historic election cycle. If something resonates with

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Speaker 1: you while enjoying our conversation, please share it with us

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Speaker 1: on social media using the hashtag TVG in Session, or

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Speaker 1: join us over in the sister circle. To talk more

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Speaker 1: about the episode. You can join us at community dot

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Speaker 1: therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me today, Antonia.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, doctor Joy for having me. I'm excited to

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Speaker 2: be with you, thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 1: Very excited to chat with you as well. So I

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Speaker 1: want to get us started by maybe having you share

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Speaker 1: a little bit about your origin story. So what actually

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Speaker 1: inspired you to go into the career of news and journalism?

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Speaker 3: Oof, So, my origin story is an easy one. Some

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Speaker 3: people that I work with in journalism, they have a

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Speaker 3: light bulb moment or a single story they saw in

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Speaker 3: the news that convinced them that journalism was their path.

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Speaker 3: That they knew they wanted to be a correspondent, They

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Speaker 3: knew they wanted to anchor sixty minutes someday something like that.

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Speaker 3: For me, it was a little bit more fluid. I

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Speaker 3: knew always growing up that I loved stories. I loved

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Speaker 3: both fiction and nonfiction. I loved documentaries. I sat next

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Speaker 3: to my parents as they would watch television. Both my

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Speaker 3: parents are lawyers, and both of them had come out

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Speaker 3: of families that talked all the time around the dinner

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Speaker 3: table about current events, politics, and civil rights. All four

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Speaker 3: of my grandparents were very involved in all those things.

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Speaker 3: On my dad's side, his father was involved in the

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Speaker 3: church in Detroit, the kind of family that was involved in.

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Speaker 2: Sort of souls to the polls type of act.

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Speaker 3: My grandfather was very prominent in the Democratic Party in Detroit.

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Speaker 3: And then on my mom's side, her parents were very

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Speaker 3: active and did a lot of work that was political

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Speaker 3: but also really centered on poverty eradications. Both of them

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Speaker 3: were immigrants to the US. They lived in Baltimore and

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Speaker 3: then in New York, and they were really passionate about

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Speaker 3: just making sure people weren't fed and supported and housed.

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Speaker 3: I guess you can call that political work. I don't

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Speaker 3: know that they saw it that way at the time,

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Speaker 3: but it was. And so I think that coming out

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Speaker 3: of a family like that, my parents, I think set

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Speaker 3: a certain type of tone around the dinner table.

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Speaker 2: And I'm one of seven kids, so there.

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Speaker 3: Was a lot of conversation, a lot of debate, a

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Speaker 3: lot of arguing and fighting sometimes, and so this idea

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Speaker 3: that when you said something at the table, you had

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Speaker 3: to back it up. You had to have read something

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Speaker 3: or watch something that could support your claim.

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Speaker 2: That you had to be comfortable with disagreeing with.

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Speaker 3: People or challenging people if you felt that they something

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Speaker 3: that wasn't right, or wasn't fully thought through, or was hurtful.

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Speaker 3: That my parents actually encourage us to work through those

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Speaker 3: things as siblings all together physically around one table. I

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Speaker 3: think then I was just sort of raised in an

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Speaker 3: environment that it made me, someone who wanted to ask questions,

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Speaker 3: who probably talked a little bit too much and was

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Speaker 3: very curious. So I think then there were a couple

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Speaker 3: of careers that work out for somebody like that.

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Speaker 2: You've become a lawyer, which is what my parents did.

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Speaker 3: You become a journalist or a filmmaker, and I decided

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Speaker 3: to become a journalist. I first thought I'd be a

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Speaker 3: producer and do everything behind the scenes, but I got

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Speaker 3: the opportunity to own my own stories and to report

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Speaker 3: my own stories and fell in love with that opportunity.

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Speaker 3: So now I tell stories through television at NBC News,

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Speaker 3: podcasting for NBC News, and then also as an author,

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Speaker 3: and so really any medium through which I can explore

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Speaker 3: my ideas, my observations, my findings with world, it's a

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Speaker 3: calling for me. I really never have a second thought

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Speaker 3: about the path that I've chosen. But I also know

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Speaker 3: that with that work comes a lot of responsibility to

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Speaker 3: get things right.

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Speaker 2: I love what I do. It's a tough time in

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Speaker 2: this field.

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Speaker 3: It's very complicated and messy time, but I know I'm

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Speaker 3: in the right place.

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Speaker 4: Oh.

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Speaker 1: I love that story, and we will definitely get into

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Speaker 1: the complications and messiness of all of it, because I'm

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Speaker 1: sure it is a very unique time to be in

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Speaker 1: the field that you are. Yeah, and this may be

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Speaker 1: a difficult conversation given the history that you shared for

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Speaker 1: yourself and your family, But do you remember is there

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Speaker 1: any particular historical moment or do you remember like a

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Speaker 1: reporter on the news that really helped you to expand

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Speaker 1: your understanding of journalism in the industry.

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Speaker 3: I think probably the big story, if I had to

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Speaker 3: pick one for me, was Hurricane Katrina. I remember watching

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Speaker 3: that news very closely. Not only did my parents know

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Speaker 3: some people in the city in New Orleans at the time,

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Speaker 3: and so they were just watching that news very closely

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Speaker 3: and we're deeply concerned. But my mom's sister, her one

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Speaker 3: of her younger sisters, was and is a journalist and

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Speaker 3: traveled to cover Hurricane Katrina. And so I think my

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Speaker 3: mom was watching that news closely to see is my

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Speaker 3: little sister, okay, how was she doing? And she was

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Speaker 3: there for months on end at times living out of

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Speaker 3: cars to cover the story, to put other people's voices.

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Speaker 2: Out on a national platform.

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Speaker 3: And I don't think I would have had the words

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Speaker 3: for this at the time, but I do remember getting

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Speaker 3: the impression or just having the feeling that, Wow, it

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Speaker 3: is so amazing that when there is a problem, there

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Speaker 3: are people who run toward it instead of running away

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Speaker 3: from it. And that at a time when so many

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Speaker 3: people were trying to figure out how to leave this city,

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Speaker 3: I had a loved one, an aunt, who was there

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Speaker 3: actually recording and documenting and showing people every day why

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Speaker 3: they couldn't look away from what was happening there. And

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Speaker 3: so I think that is probably the moment, And then

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Speaker 3: I'd pick my aunt too. Her name is Soldee O'Brien.

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Speaker 3: She is a pioneering black journalist who I look up

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Speaker 3: to still every day.

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Speaker 2: I call her often to say, Hey, I.

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Speaker 3: Don't know what to do about this decision I have

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Speaker 3: to make, or I'm not sure how to pitch this

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Speaker 3: really tough story I want to work on. She came

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Speaker 3: up in the field at a time when black women

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Speaker 3: really I mean it's not perfect now, but there wasn't

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Speaker 3: a lot of space for us. People wanted her to

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Speaker 3: change her name, for example, straighten her hair, carry herself

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Speaker 3: in particular ways, strip herself of her identity as an

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Speaker 3: Afro Cuban woman, and she refused to do that and

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Speaker 3: still made it. And so I just remember thinking, oh,

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Speaker 3: my aunt is a badass, like because I would hear

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Speaker 3: these conversations, because she would talk to my mom or

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Speaker 3: talk to my uncles about some racist comments someone made

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Speaker 3: to her at work, or how the men she was

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Speaker 3: supposed to be collaborating with were shutting her out.

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Speaker 2: And I remember that.

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Speaker 3: I remember sitting around tables with her, riding in cars

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Speaker 3: with her, and hearing those stories, but seeing that she

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Speaker 3: saw just this greater and higher purpose in her work

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Speaker 3: and that she knew she was destined to do it.

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Speaker 3: I love her endlessly, and I think I even grew

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Speaker 3: to love the field through her first. And I think

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Speaker 3: that was the first time I could see someone who

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Speaker 3: looked so much obviously like me succeed in this space

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Speaker 3: that I think in other contexts I was receiving the

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Speaker 3: message maybe I wouldn't have been so successful. I saw

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Speaker 3: her figure it out, and I thought, Okay, she can,

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Speaker 3: I can too. And I know that other black journalists,

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Speaker 3: young women have felt that way about her too, having

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Speaker 3: watched her rise and said, Okay, she figured it out,

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Speaker 3: and so I'm going to try it as well. And

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Speaker 3: I think I'm very lucky, very privileged, honestly, to have

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Speaker 3: someone in my family who could tell me the stories

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Speaker 3: behind the scenes, who could explain to me how things worked,

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Speaker 3: who could give me so much, mostly just emotional support

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Speaker 3: and guidance in a difficult field. So I think I'd

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Speaker 3: pick her, and I'd pick her coverage a hurricane katrinas

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Speaker 3: if I had to have a light bulb moment, that

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Speaker 3: would be it. But I think it was one of

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Speaker 3: those things where you're experiencing all these things as a child,

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Speaker 3: and you don't always have the words to describe what

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Speaker 3: you're seeing and feeling. But by the time I was

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Speaker 3: in college and I was thinking much more explicitly about

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Speaker 3: who am I and what do I want to give

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Speaker 3: to the world. I just kept coming back to those images.

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Speaker 3: I kept coming back to those kitchen table conversations with

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Speaker 3: my family, and this just felt right.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing that with us. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it would be hard to have Solidad as

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Speaker 1: your aunt and not have her story be a part

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Speaker 1: of what opens the doors for your own story too.

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Speaker 1: I think she would probably be very confused if you

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Speaker 1: did not say that she was a part of your

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Speaker 1: interest in the fields.

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Speaker 3: You know, The funny thing too, that I tell people

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Speaker 3: is Solanad dropped out of college to pursue her career

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Speaker 3: for a while because she got an opportunity to go

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Speaker 3: and just get to work.

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Speaker 2: And she was.

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Speaker 3: So driven, like she really had tunnel vision. She knew

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Speaker 3: what she wanted to be, and so she starts her

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Speaker 3: career and then she makes a decision to go back

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Speaker 3: and finish her degree, and she came and she actually

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Speaker 3: lived in my childhood bedroom for a while while she

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Speaker 3: did that, and so I was very little and she

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Speaker 3: moved into my bedroom as a kid, and so we

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Speaker 3: spent a lot of time together. I mean, my family's

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Speaker 3: very tight knit. We're big, big family, you know, dozens

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Speaker 3: of cousins, but she and my mom were close. She

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Speaker 3: was in my house all the time, and so you know,

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Speaker 3: that bond there, It's been there forever, it will be

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Speaker 3: there always. So yeah, it's hard for me to talk

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Speaker 3: about my career and not say that. But I also

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Speaker 3: think it's really important to mention because one of the

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Speaker 3: problems I think with my field, so there's not a

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Speaker 3: lot of great mentorship of any young people, but especially

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Speaker 3: young people of color, and so often when people ask me, well,

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Speaker 3: How did you figure this out?

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Speaker 2: How did you figure that out?

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Speaker 3: I tell them straight up, I'm very lucky because I

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Speaker 3: have this mentor, and a lot of us are coming

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Speaker 3: into these big newsrooms, moving to these big cities like

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Speaker 3: New York or Los Angeles in London, and we're trying

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Speaker 3: to figure it out in this space and tell our stories.

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Speaker 3: But we are not given mentors who get them, who

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Speaker 3: have a lot of affection for them, who have lived them.

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Speaker 3: And that's one of the biggest hurdles that I try

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Speaker 3: to help and I try to be for other people.

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Speaker 3: I try to help them either find that person or

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Speaker 3: if I'm in the place for them to do that work.

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Speaker 3: Because I'm very lucky I had that. And so if

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Speaker 3: for anyone ever trying to make sense of how I've

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Speaker 3: been able to navigate and accomplish what I've accomplished at

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Speaker 3: the stage in my career, just to tell the truth

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Speaker 3: and all the facts up front, you have to know

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Speaker 3: that I had that opportunity, that I was lucky to

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Speaker 3: have that relationship so built in, because it has been transformative.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so. Earlier this year, you also released your

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Speaker 1: book Madness, Race and Insanity. In a Jim Crow asylum,

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Speaker 1: and of all the stories you've told, I mean, there

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Speaker 1: have been so many brilliant, impassionate stories that you've been

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Speaker 1: in involved in. I'm curious to hear from you how

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Speaker 1: you chose this to be the story for the book

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Speaker 1: and how you feel like it changed you to write

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Speaker 1: this book.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're going to know a lot about my family

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Speaker 3: by the end of this conversation because it goes back

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Speaker 3: to that same time. So Madness my first book.

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Speaker 2: It came out just.

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Speaker 3: This past January, and Madness tells the story of a

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Speaker 3: formally segregated asylum called Crownsville that was built in nineteen

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Speaker 3: eleven in the heart of the woods in Anarundel County, Maryland,

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Speaker 3: and that was open until two thousand and four. And

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Speaker 3: I studied this asylum to tell a much larger story,

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Speaker 3: broader American story about the relationship between the mental health

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Speaker 3: care system and black communities in the United States, and

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Speaker 3: to really try to get to the bottom of this

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Speaker 3: question around why so many black people have trouble connecting

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Speaker 3: with mental health services seeing themselves reflected in this field,

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Speaker 3: and what.

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Speaker 2: It tries to offer to patients.

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Speaker 3: And I also wanted to help people demystify and destigmatize

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Speaker 3: some of these conversations in our families. And that's because

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Speaker 3: I lived so on my father's side, his family's all

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Speaker 3: African American but in this country for hundreds and hundreds

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Speaker 3: of years enslaved in Georgia and Virginia, and my mom's side,

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Speaker 3: my mom's Afro Cuban but the descendant of.

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Speaker 2: Slaves in Cuba.

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Speaker 3: And I found growing up that both sides of my

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Speaker 3: family had immense trouble talking about their emotions, about their

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Speaker 3: mental health, about certain incidents or memories in their lives,

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Speaker 3: or in the sort of collective family fabric, and I,

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Speaker 3: as a child sort of picked up on rumors and whispers,

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Speaker 3: and at age eleven, I finally had a conversation with

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Speaker 3: my father in which I discovered that he had been

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Speaker 3: traumatized by an incident in the nineteen seventies in which

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Speaker 3: a police officer killed one of his favorite cousins, an

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Speaker 3: older cousin named Maynard, in public in broad daylight while

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Speaker 3: he was in the midst of mental health episode. He

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Speaker 3: had schizophrenia. Although at the time my dad was pretty

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Speaker 3: little and didn't really understand what that was, he came

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Speaker 3: to understand that his cousin had been killed in the

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Speaker 3: middle of very publicly struggling by a police officer, and

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Speaker 3: that killing changed my father. It changed and sort of

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Speaker 3: restructured his whole family. It led many people in my

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Speaker 3: family to descend into immense grief that they really couldn't

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Speaker 3: find the words to talk about. And I and all

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Speaker 3: my siblings found that my dad also really became someone

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Speaker 3: who didn't know how to address his emotions, how to

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Speaker 3: revisit memories.

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Speaker 2: And I think that at the time.

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Speaker 3: He tried to keep so much of this secret because

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Speaker 3: he thought that if we knew it, it would harm us.

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Speaker 3: But the funny thing about keeping secrets is actually they

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Speaker 3: create a kind of environment. They destabilize families. They cause

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Speaker 3: fear and worry in the very children that you thought

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Speaker 3: you were keeping safe. And so me and my siblings

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Speaker 3: we always picked up that something was wrong, that there

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Speaker 3: were parts of the family we couldn't talk about. We

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00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,520
Speaker 3: even came to understand that Maynard, his image, any photo

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Speaker 3: of him, really became sort of unacceptable to have out

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Speaker 3: on say the mantle, or out in public. It was

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Speaker 3: so painful for people to see him that he was

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Speaker 3: essentially hidden in boxes and scrap books and basements, and

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Speaker 3: so you pick up on all of this and you

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Speaker 3: realize there's something there. And so I get to college.

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Speaker 3: It's my first time, I guess, in my life, being

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Speaker 3: able to study something without much interference or even guidance, frankly,

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Speaker 3: and I stumble into a class that examined history and

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Speaker 3: science and specifically looked at the history of psychiatric institutions.

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Speaker 3: And I got the opportunity to study Crownsville through that course,

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Speaker 3: and then I became a member of that department.

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Speaker 2: I got a lot of mentors in.

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Speaker 3: That space, and received support and funding and the opportunity

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Speaker 3: to travel to Maryland to really very closely get to

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Speaker 3: know this institution. I became one of just a handful

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Speaker 3: of people to ever get permission from the State of

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Speaker 3: Maryland to access its records. And for me, it was

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Speaker 3: an academic project, a journalistic project that involved ten years

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Speaker 3: of oral history work, but it was also deeply personal.

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Speaker 3: I think at a certain point I became so obsessed

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Speaker 3: with the hospital because of the kind of family that

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Speaker 3: I came from, and because of the pain I knew

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Speaker 3: my family had and was and arguably still is working through.

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Speaker 3: I think for me, coming to understand the story of

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Speaker 3: Crowns film. It helped me understand my family. It helped

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Speaker 3: me understand why so many family members of mine have

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Speaker 3: either felt shut out by or mistreated by these systems.

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Speaker 3: And it helped me and many members of my family

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Speaker 3: feel a whole lot less alone just by seeing ourselves

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Speaker 3: and our story and so many other people. And so

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Speaker 3: it's been an honor for me to get to know

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Speaker 3: this specific community in Maryland, to be able to handle

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Speaker 3: these artifacts, these records, to be able to follow some

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Speaker 3: of these families and their narratives, their stories through one

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Speaker 3: hundred years of this hospital's history. It's an interesting journalistic

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Speaker 3: process for me because there are the regular parts of journalism,

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Speaker 3: the sort of pursuit of information, the interview process, the

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Speaker 3: collection of data. But there's also something my heart is

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Speaker 3: it's on the page, It's on every page of the book,

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Speaker 3: and so there's a lot of vulnerability I think that's

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Speaker 3: come with this project. That it's something I haven't experienced

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Speaker 3: in anything else that I've reported before, and so you

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Speaker 3: feel that in this book. And my hope is that

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Speaker 3: it's a book that makes people feel like they've learned something,

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Speaker 3: like they better understand this hidden.

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Speaker 2: Piece of our history.

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Speaker 3: But I also very much hope that it's really almost

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Speaker 3: a gift to other black families that have been through

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Speaker 3: some of the stuff my family's been through, that it

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Speaker 3: helps generations like my family, where the young people want

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Speaker 3: to talk about mental health and maybe some of our

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Speaker 3: elders don't, that it gives them a tool to do that,

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Speaker 3: a way to maybe put their struggles their concerns out

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Speaker 3: in the world and look at it in a broader

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Speaker 3: context and a broader structure. I have found, at least

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Speaker 3: in my family that's allowed us to get a lot

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Speaker 3: farther into conversation. And so it's my hope that it

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00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,639
Speaker 3: is something that helps us look at real structural and

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Speaker 3: systemic issues in our system right now, that it leads

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Speaker 3: people to figure out how to fight for something better,

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Speaker 3: because I think we all deserve better in the mental

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Speaker 3: health care space in the United States right now. But

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Speaker 3: I also really hope it has that sort of personal

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Speaker 3: healing element to it where you can take this book

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Speaker 3: and you feel like this is journalism you can use

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Speaker 3: to have those kinds of conversations with your family that

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Speaker 3: I think so often many of us feel we've lost

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Speaker 3: out on we've lost the opportunity for.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can definitely see that in the writing

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Speaker 1: in mans for sure. But I'm curious to know, you

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Speaker 1: know from the conversations that you had for Madness, but

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Speaker 1: also so much of your other report for things like

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Speaker 1: Hurricane Irma and like you deal with some very very

380
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Speaker 1: weighty topics. Can you share about how you navigate your

381
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Speaker 1: own mental health? How are you taking care of yourself

382
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Speaker 1: as you are so involved in the process of writing

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Speaker 1: these pieces.

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Speaker 2: It took me a minute to figure that out, it

385
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Speaker 2: really did.

386
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Speaker 3: It took time to figure out how to take care

387
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Speaker 3: of me while also just spending so much time out

388
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Speaker 3: on the road working in a career where the whole

389
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,719
Speaker 3: purpose of the career is actually to elevate other people

390
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Speaker 3: and to often ignore yourself or to drop what you

391
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Speaker 3: are doing and to give it up in service of

392
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Speaker 3: the story. And so I think one of the pieces

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Speaker 3: of advice I'd give people is that if you're interested

394
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Speaker 3: in doing work like this, journalism, filmmaking, so really any

395
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Speaker 3: kind of storytelling, that you have to give yourself some

396
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Speaker 3: grace in those early months and years, because it takes

397
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Speaker 3: a minute to figure out what works for me and

398
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Speaker 3: what actually makes me feel safe and feel good. So

399
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Speaker 3: in the first few years I actually didn't really do

400
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Speaker 3: a whole lot. I thought I could just run and gun,

401
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,359
Speaker 3: and I found things exhilarating. And then a few years

402
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,400
Speaker 3: in I realized I had developed horrible insomnia.

403
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Speaker 2: I simply couldn't sleep at night.

404
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 3: I would replay images of things I saw on stories

405
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 3: and they would haunt me. I didn't really know what

406
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:22,919
Speaker 3: to do about this, or how do you bring this

407
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 3: up at dinner with your friends or tell other people

408
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:27,920
Speaker 3: in your field about it? Are they going through the

409
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 3: same thing? And it really wasn't until twenty seventeen. Twenty eighteen,

410
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,119
Speaker 3: I was covering family separation at the US Mexico border,

411
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 3: and I basically just lost all ability to sleep. I

412
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 3: became extremely irritable and angry, and I actually had very

413
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,480
Speaker 3: limited access to my own emotions. It was really hard

414
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Speaker 3: for me to explain to someone why are you reacting

415
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Speaker 3: that way or why are you so upset or angry

416
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Speaker 3: right now? And I realized I had sort of received

417
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Speaker 3: secondhand trauma through spending time with a family that had

418
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Speaker 3: gone through the trauma of separation. I was basically living

419
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Speaker 3: with them for a summer and seeing all these family

420
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Speaker 3: members grieve as they were trying to get back to

421
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Speaker 3: a boy who was just seven turning eight years old

422
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Speaker 3: at the time, and being so close to that story,

423
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 3: knowing the little boy and just living what the family

424
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Speaker 3: was living through day and day out, and being so

425
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 3: focused on them, frankly, and trying to figure out what

426
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 3: was happening here, trying to get to the bottom of

427
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 3: their son's case. I had forgotten that I needed to rest,

428
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Speaker 3: to that I should be working seven days a week,

429
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Speaker 3: that I needed to sleep, that I wouldn't be able

430
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Speaker 3: to do the story justice if I fell apart in

431
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Speaker 3: the process. I hit a wall and I remember going

432
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Speaker 3: out to dinner actually with a friend and she called

433
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Speaker 3: me out on it because I don't think I was

434
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Speaker 3: being a great friend to a lot of people in

435
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 3: my life at the time either, because I was just

436
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 3: not really functioning, and so I got a therapist.

437
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Speaker 2: I started basically.

438
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Speaker 3: Creating boundaries around the job, so saying no to weekend work,

439
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 3: saying no to certain assignments people would ask me about.

440
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,120
Speaker 3: And as painful as some of that was, and as

441
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 3: difficult as it was, to burn completely out, and that

442
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 3: be the moment that I realized I needed help. I'm

443
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 3: really grateful for that experience because I got to learn

444
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,400
Speaker 3: early in my career, and I think people often don't

445
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 3: learn this lesson until way too late. You don't have

446
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 3: to just take care of yourself because it feels good

447
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 3: because it is the right thing to do, because your

448
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 3: doctor tells you that's what you have to do. If

449
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 3: you actually love what you do, you care about your career,

450
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 3: you care about your hobby, you care about your family,

451
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 3: you care about the sport that you play, the music

452
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 3: that you like to perform, then you have to care

453
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 3: about your health. You simply will not make it in

454
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 3: the game long term. In the process, you won't be

455
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 3: able to have a decade's long career because you won't

456
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 3: make it through the decades if you don't take care

457
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 3: of you first. And so that was sort of my

458
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,439
Speaker 3: first time figuring out, oh, this is actually part of

459
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 3: your career and personal development is learning to prioritize this

460
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 3: part of my life. And so now I've become someone

461
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 3: who is much much better at balancing all that. I

462
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 3: say no a lot, I stand up for myself. I

463
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 3: think very carefully about how much I can take on

464
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 3: my plate a lot of journalists and a lot of

465
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 3: people who just love this kind of field. I hear

466
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 3: this from people who work in fiction, filmmaking and fiction

467
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 3: writing too. You see other people getting big stories or

468
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 3: going out to make a big movie, and you think, Okay,

469
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 3: that means I need to be doing something right now too.

470
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 3: Opportunity is always coming back around another corner. You can

471
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 3: miss out, you can rest and be ready for the

472
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 3: next one. And what other people are doing, as wonderful

473
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 3: as it is to watch and to support, it has

474
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 3: actually very little to do with what the universe is

475
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,919
Speaker 3: going to send your way in a matter of days

476
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 3: or weeks and months. Taking on that mindset for me

477
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 3: helped me release a lot of the pressure that was

478
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 3: building in me for a really long time.

479
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 2: But it takes practice. It takes a little bit of

480
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 2: trial and error.

481
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 3: Oh, how do I communicate to my superiors that I

482
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 3: need time off?

483
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 2: Oh that tactic didn't work. Oh, I have to be

484
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 2: more direct in this way.

485
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 3: And so the first thing is you really have to

486
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 3: give yourself some grace about the fact that you'll make

487
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 3: some mistakes. You will maybe burn the candle down a

488
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 3: few times before you get it right. And it's sort

489
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 3: of part of the journey of figuring out how to

490
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 3: make this work for you, and if you don't ever

491
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 3: figure out a way to make it work for you.

492
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 3: There are people in this field right now in journalism

493
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 3: who just given the pace of what's happened in our

494
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 3: country over the last eight to ten years, they've decided

495
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 3: to take a step back. I respect that that is

496
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 3: the right decision for them. I don't think this is

497
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 3: a field that is necessarily great for everyone at all times,

498
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 3: and so I think you have to just really go

499
00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 3: in ready to listen to yourself, give yourself grace and patience,

500
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 3: and see how at every stage it feels to you

501
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 3: and what works right for you.

502
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, but first a

503
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: quick snippet of what's coming next week on TVG.

504
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 4: PCOS or polycystic ovary syndrome, is the most common hormone

505
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 4: disorder and people born with uterus. So if you have

506
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 4: irregular menstrual cycles or irregular ovulation, that's one. If you

507
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 4: have signs of high androgens, which are male hormones like testosterone,

508
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 4: that's two. Three transvaginal ultrasounds showing polycystic ovaries, so these

509
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 4: are little cysts that form in around the ovaries, but

510
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 4: if you have two or three of those, that's how

511
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 4: you get diagnosed with PCOS.

512
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you sharing the part about the images

513
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: and the stories staying with you, because I feel like

514
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 1: so much of the advice we give as mental health

515
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: professionals is for people to disengage with that kind of

516
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: media and be mindful of your consumption, and it feels

517
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 1: like it would be really hard to do that when

518
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 1: it is your job to be the one who.

519
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 2: Shares the stories with us.

520
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,239
Speaker 1: So I'm wondering if you can share more about, like

521
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: how you do manage really activating videos, and if you

522
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: are aware of any mental health resources, particularly for people

523
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: in journalism, because it does feel like those are some

524
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: very specific needs.

525
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's something that comes up in the field a lot,

526
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 3: because you'd be surprised in this sort of ecosystem of

527
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 3: people who make news how many people end up affected

528
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 3: by this. It's not just the reporter who's on the

529
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 3: ground with the family. It's also say, the assistant editor

530
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 3: who's bringing in all that footage back in the office

531
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 3: and they have to watch everything back and they might

532
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 3: not have been and present to meet that child, but

533
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 3: they actually are watching all that extra footage, all the

534
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 3: little moments that can break your heart and change you,

535
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 3: and they're seeing that all sort of at a dark desk,

536
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 3: all alone, with very few colleagues actually talk to about it.

537
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: And so that person is part of the chain. There

538
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 3: are the producers who maybe are trying to figure out, oh,

539
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 3: there's breaking news, how do I bring this on to

540
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 3: TV Live? And they're looking at these images and they're

541
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 3: making really hard decisions about what the public should or

542
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 3: should not see, or how we're going to explain this,

543
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 3: and they have very little time to do it. It's

544
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 3: extremely high pressure, and so those producers and writers and

545
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 3: graphics makers are often subjected to things that they're not

546
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 3: trained or fully prepared to deal with. And so there

547
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 3: are a whole lot of people along that chain who

548
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 3: experience this. So our field, we talk about it a lot,

549
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 3: and we try to figure out what do we do

550
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 3: and offer to people who are part of this.

551
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 2: One of the things I know NBC has done really well.

552
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 3: They've sort of structured our healthcare at the company so

553
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 3: that all of my therapy is one hundred percent paid for.

554
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 2: I don't even see the bills.

555
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 3: Come through, and I know that a lot of news

556
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 3: organizations are trying to provide services at that level.

557
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: They offer additional days.

558
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 3: Off to people. They try now to put people on shifts.

559
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 3: So say you're working the day that Trump experienced that

560
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 3: attempted assassination at the rally, you experience that, well, we're

561
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 3: not going to have you working around the clock for

562
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 3: the next seven days. As this crisis, this story unfolds,

563
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 3: we're going to be switching people out so that the

564
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 3: person who experience that gets time to rest before they're

565
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 3: expected to come back at work and operate as a

566
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 3: normal There are a lot of people now who are

567
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 3: very quickly and actively thinking about this and how to

568
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 3: protect the people who are on the front line. So

569
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 3: that just a few years ago, I mean when I

570
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 3: first started in this field, about ten years ago, people

571
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 3: were not talking about mental health that way.

572
00:29:58,600 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: It was almost embarrassing.

573
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 3: So you had to raise your hand and get yourself

574
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 3: out of the game and say, oh, I can't keep going,

575
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 3: I need help.

576
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: I have to stop.

577
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 3: I know because a lot of these people are my

578
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 3: friends or my mentors who something happened or they were

579
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 3: physically harmed on a story or they nearly crashed a

580
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 3: car from lack of sleep while traveling somewhere, and that

581
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 3: was the point years ago when they finally took a

582
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 3: step back. Now the industry is much much better, but

583
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 3: there's always still more work to be done. And I

584
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 3: think it's a shame too, because this is an industry

585
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 3: that depends a lot on freelancers, freelance reporters, freelance photographers

586
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 3: and camera operators, and so they're not always receiving the

587
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 3: same level of healthcare coverage and support that we are

588
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 3: as in house people. And so that's something that I

589
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: would really like to see our industry transform and change quickly.

590
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 3: I mean, we're covering two wars right now and also

591
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 3: immense sort of civil domestic on certainty as we come

592
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 3: into an election, and so these are things that we

593
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 3: really do need to address. I'm grateful to be at

594
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 3: a place that clearly cares about it and gives us

595
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 3: some tools, but it is why you have to sort

596
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 3: of put yourself first. You're going to be the first

597
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 3: person to recognize that something's gone wrong. It's probably not

598
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 3: going to be your boss. It's not going to be

599
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 3: your manager who steps in and says, hey, here's a

600
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 3: couple extra days off, you very likely are going to

601
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 3: be that person who has to fight for you, and

602
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 3: it's a downside. It's a tax of the job. It's

603
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 3: really hard stuff to see. People ask me often like

604
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 3: about stories I never forget, and I always feel bad

605
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 3: when they ask me this at a dinner party or

606
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 3: things like that, because I feel like I bring the

607
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 3: mood down because the stories that stick in my mind

608
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 3: are often really some of the darkest places that this

609
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 3: job has brought me.

610
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: And so it's something I actively.

611
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 3: Have to work through myself, talk about and find balance for.

612
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 2: But it is not easy.

613
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 3: And I'm glad that there are professionals like you who

614
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 3: are working with clients about what to do when you've

615
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 3: been exposed to that kind of imagery, because it's very real,

616
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 3: and I think now there are people without any honestly

617
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 3: connection to this industry at all who are exposed to

618
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 3: some of the stuff on TikTok. I have younger siblings

619
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 3: who have watched bombardments live on TikTok, who have turned

620
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 3: on their phones to see kids lose limbs in the

621
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 3: midst of this war, right, and they are not ready.

622
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 3: They are not professionally trained. They do not have the

623
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 3: resources to support the infrastructure because their job has nothing

624
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 3: to do with that, But here they are being exposed

625
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 3: to it, and I don't think we talk about that enough.

626
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,479
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought that up, because I do think

627
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: that that is something that I've been paying attention to.

628
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: Is just the advent of social media and how that

629
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: has likely changed the landscape of journalism. And so I

630
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: think a part of what happens is that people aren't

631
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 1: very sure about what actually is vetted journalism versus something

632
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: maybe from somebody who does not have journalism training that

633
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: you might find on a blog or just the social

634
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: media per personality.

635
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 2: Can you say a.

636
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: Little bit about how social media has changed the landscape

637
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: and how people can be mindful of where they're getting

638
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: information from.

639
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel a few different ways about this.

640
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 3: I mean, some journalists are very sort of anti all

641
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 3: these new platforms, or they see them as a threat

642
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 3: to the industry. I don't think it's that simple. There

643
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 3: are also tools for us that have been so transformative.

644
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 3: They've allowed us to see communities we weren't properly covering

645
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: in the past, to find people to highlight voices, and

646
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 3: I think that democratization has been really valuable and all

647
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 3: of us, I think, see that in real time. So

648
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 3: I think that when you see people gravitating toward maybe

649
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 3: more opinion based content on some of these platforms, when

650
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 3: you talk to young people about why they watch, say

651
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 3: certain YouTubers or live streamers, they'll tell you they feel

652
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 3: that those people are authentic, that they just feel like

653
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 3: they're in conversation, almost like they know them. And I

654
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 3: think that's an important lesson for us as journalists that

655
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 3: perhaps for a while in this field we've gotten away

656
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 3: from building genuine relationships with people, genuine community, that we

657
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,720
Speaker 3: haven't done enough to make them feel like we really

658
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 3: reflect them and that we're trustworthy. So I kind of

659
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,359
Speaker 3: like that kick in the butt. I feel that when

660
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 3: you are a journalist, you owe people a lot. We

661
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 3: have a very high bar. We can't go to.

662
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: Work and make a lot of mistakes. We don't get

663
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: to fail.

664
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 3: We have to get important stories right and we have

665
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 3: to be honest with our audiences about what we know

666
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 3: and don't know and how things develop and how good

667
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 3: journalism is made. And so we need to do a

668
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 3: better job of that and invite people into our lives

669
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 3: and our processes. I think a little bit more so

670
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 3: that they feel that NBC or whatever news organization you

671
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 3: work for is like a part of the fabric of

672
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 3: their community, because that's I think what good journalism can

673
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 3: feel like. However, I do think that the way in

674
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 3: which bad actors can use these same tools to push

675
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 3: fake stories. I hate saying fake news, false narratives, to

676
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 3: manipulate images, to harass and frighten people who might otherwise

677
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 3: speak up and say want to tell their story, but

678
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 3: because of what they're worried might happen to them on

679
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: certain platforms, they then don't. It's horrible to see what

680
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 3: happens on a day to day basis, and some of

681
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 3: these things, as I just mentioned, just also the sort

682
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 3: of level of violence that young people can now have

683
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 3: access to. Some would argue that it's a good thing

684
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 3: that people can see a war, say, unfold for themselves

685
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 3: on a platform and draw their own conclusions. They can

686
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 3: argue that just seeing still images or the sort of

687
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 3: story of the war from certain say newspapers or two

688
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 3: minute news segment on television doesn't.

689
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 2: Quite do it.

690
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 3: I get all of that, but there is this sort

691
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 3: of residual trauma that comes from seeing and experiencing that.

692
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 3: And what do some of these platforms owe us in

693
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 3: terms of contextualizing or protecting young people.

694
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 2: Who have access to this.

695
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 3: These are all very open questions, and so I do

696
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 3: worry about, particularly the younger news consumers, and how they

697
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 3: know what is right, how they know is an accurate

698
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 3: and legitimate and authoritative source, and how they also know

699
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 3: to balance their own media diet to take care of

700
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,439
Speaker 3: themselves so that this work doesn't harm them. It's hard

701
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 3: because all these things have flooded and the zone and

702
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 3: changed everything so quickly, so in a way we're almost

703
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 3: all like guinea pigs in the middle of it. That

704
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 3: doesn't feel great, but I know that on my side,

705
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,720
Speaker 3: as a journalist, I feel responsibility for a few things.

706
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 3: The first is finding ways to reach people that are honest, truthful,

707
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 3: fact checked, and authentic. How do I get in front

708
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 3: of people so that I report this story in the

709
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 3: way that they want and need to receive it. That's

710
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 3: why I'm very aggressive about not just being a television

711
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 3: reporter who goes on cable news only every day or

712
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 3: just broadcast doing podcasts. I communicate with people on social media.

713
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 3: I answer questions for young people on TikTok. Sometimes I

714
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 3: do in person events for a lot of my journalism

715
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 3: and for my book, so that people can come up

716
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 3: to me, talk to me, and interact with me and

717
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 3: feel like they know me and understand why I was

718
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 3: on this story, why they might be able to trust

719
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 3: me or like me or come back to me for

720
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 3: the next one. To make myself available to people in

721
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 3: that way, and so I think we need to get

722
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 3: out of our offices and our silos a bit and

723
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 3: get back actually out into the world in whatever ways

724
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 3: we can to offer a lot to people so that

725
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 3: they feel again that kind of connection to the reporting

726
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 3: that I think in some cases has been lost. And

727
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 3: then I think, for me, it's also just making sure

728
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 3: that I'm telling the kinds of stories that maybe other

729
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 3: reporters aren't always pursuing, that I'm interviewing people who don't

730
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 3: always get to be the face of national TV and news,

731
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 3: that I talk to voters who maybe aren't always seen

732
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 3: as the most important or valuable constituency to a group

733
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 3: of politicians, that I'm giving them their chance to say

734
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 3: what they'd like to see.

735
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 2: Changed in this country.

736
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 3: I often think about, Okay, I'm assigned to this story

737
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 3: or I'm pitching this story, and I'm excited about this. Well,

738
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,879
Speaker 3: what am I going to do to put my mark

739
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 3: on it, my stamp, my signature. How do I find

740
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 3: the voices that will surprise you a little bit or

741
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 3: make you a little bit uncomfortable. I want my work

742
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 3: to feel like it challenges people, and that's one of

743
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 3: the ways in which when people see what I've done

744
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 3: and see the heart and the authenticity I try my

745
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 3: best to put into it, that they'll be able to

746
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 3: reconnect with me. And I think between my work at Vice,

747
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 3: which is where I started most of my career, and

748
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 3: then now at NBC for the last four years, I

749
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 3: think that I've been able to do that, and I

750
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 3: think it's one of the reasons why at times, some

751
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 3: of my work has allowed me to build the career

752
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 3: that I've built at a young age, because I've chased

753
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,919
Speaker 3: these platus forms and I've tried to bring new people

754
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 3: into the fold. And so when people ask me, that's

755
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 3: what I tell them is be you, be real, and

756
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 3: try to find the balance between that who you are

757
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 3: and what you want to do and where you want

758
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 3: to go with the sort of necessities of the field,

759
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 3: so that never comes at the expense of fact checking

760
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 3: and making sure that your story is air tight, that

761
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 3: you've gone after every voice possible and perspective possible for

762
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 3: whatever that story might be. But you can do all

763
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 3: of that while balancing the need to build better relationships

764
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 3: and to be I think just a little bit more

765
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 3: accessible to our audience right now. I think that's one

766
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 3: of the only tools we have as journalists to try

767
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 3: to make up for some of the ground and the

768
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 3: trust that's been lost.

769
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: I appreciate you sharing about the different ways that your

770
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: journalism shows up because you've been involved, of course with

771
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 1: the book, with the more traditional news, which you mentioned

772
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,359
Speaker 1: podcasts that you have podcasts like south Lake and Grapevine.

773
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: Can you say a little bit about how you're journalism

774
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: training allows you to be flexible and show up differently

775
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,879
Speaker 1: in those spaces, and how do you decide what kinds

776
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: of stories lend themselves better to say, like a podcast

777
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: versus like a TikTok video versus like something like traditional news.

778
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 3: I think that's one of the most fun parts about

779
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 3: this field is that when you really love a story,

780
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 3: certain parts of that story will just sing to you

781
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 3: or make sense actually in certain formats. For example, I'll

782
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 3: take South Lake and Grapevine, the two podcasts that I've

783
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 3: done with my friend and colleague Mike Kick Somebod NBC.

784
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 3: Those stories were so powerful in that format. Even though

785
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 3: we did TV versions of those stories, we did just

786
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 3: digital regular articles that people could read, and those were

787
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 3: great and I think valuable, and they reached a certain

788
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 3: subset of people. I think what made the podcast those

789
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 3: so special was that they were like audio documentaries, and

790
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 3: people felt like they could almost submerge themselves through their

791
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 3: ears into this town, this community in Texas. And what

792
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 3: these two podcasts did was look at first the fight

793
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 3: over critical race theory and then the fight about LGBTQ

794
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 3: inclusion in schools through the Texas towns that had really

795
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 3: become the epicenter of all this. So in season one,

796
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 3: it's a town called south Lake, which is really where

797
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 3: the fight over critical race theory began, and then Grapevine,

798
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 3: the town.

799
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 2: Next door where the school board.

800
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 3: And community went really to battle over what to do

801
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 3: about LGBTQ children, their inclusion and stories that reflect them

802
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,919
Speaker 3: in books and school materials there and we highlight one

803
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 3: transgender student whose life is forever changed after they borrow

804
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 3: a book from a teacher and then one of their

805
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 3: parents react very negatively to them reading that book and

806
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 3: ends up really publicly blaming the teacher in the book

807
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 3: for turning their child transgender. And it's the kind of

808
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 3: story that we had heard politicians talk and argue about

809
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 3: so much on the national stage, and we thought, Okay,

810
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 3: we can really get into the story and take you through,

811
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 3: scene by scene, step by step, what this actually looks like,

812
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,919
Speaker 3: what the truth really is, and what's happening to these

813
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 3: neighbor and neighbor or teacher to parent or student relationships

814
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 3: in the communities as our national politics really sort of

815
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:32,359
Speaker 3: infiltrate these local towns. So we realized that audio gave

816
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 3: us a few advantages in that case.

817
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,760
Speaker 2: The first is podcasts, you have a lot of space.

818
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 3: This isn't going to be a two minute spot on

819
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 3: nightly news where I have to hit you with all

820
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 3: these important national elements in such a short amount of time.

821
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 3: Each episode can be forty forty five minutes if we

822
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 3: want it to be. Then it also allows us to

823
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 3: protect certain sources, So we wanted to talk to LGBTQ

824
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 3: students or students who had experienced extreme bullying and trauma

825
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 3: in school, and they might not have wanted to put

826
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 3: their face on camera. That might not have been the

827
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 3: format they felt comfortable, and they don't want the lights

828
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 3: in their face. Well, all you need is a small

829
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 3: podcasting microphone and you can just hang out with them

830
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 3: for the day. We would follow them, walk in parks

831
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 3: with them, go to their favorite hangout spot, set on

832
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 3: the couch. Very simple stuff, but you can still build

833
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,919
Speaker 3: a pretty stunning sort of documentary feeling with this sort

834
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 3: of pared back version of what the other kind of

835
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 3: work I did at NBC looked like.

836
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: And it allowed us to reach.

837
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 3: So many more people and to get a level of

838
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 3: depth with them that I think you can't achieve in

839
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 3: other formats. But then, for example, say that we booked

840
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 3: an interview with the superintendent of South Lake Schools and

841
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 3: we needed to ask him about the reality of racism

842
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 3: in that town. And so that's great for the podcast,

843
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 3: but a national TV audience really benefits from seeing someone

844
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 3: in a position of power grapple with what's really happened there.

845
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 3: So that story, when we aired it on television, did

846
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 3: incredibly well on that platform because I think people saw, well, me,

847
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 3: a black reporter, ask this superintendent about the reality of

848
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 3: racist incidents in.

849
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 2: His school, and they could see on his face.

850
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 3: At one point he laughed in the interview, and that's

851
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 3: something that a lot of viewers really reacted to, just

852
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 3: the realization, no, he wasn't taking this perhaps as seriously

853
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 3: as viewers wanted him to take it. Then that was

854
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 3: a really powerful medium for them because they could really

855
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 3: see and feel this person's body language and sort of

856
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 3: nonverbal forms of communication, and that broke through in that format.

857
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 3: And so I love that I can take every story

858
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,839
Speaker 3: or even every stage of the reporting, even if it's

859
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 3: part of one large story, and think about the different

860
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 3: ways that it could live and survive and the different

861
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 3: kinds of people that.

862
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 2: I could reach with each piece of it.

863
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 3: And we talk a lot about the fracturing because of

864
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 3: all these new platforms and what social media has done

865
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 3: to this industry. But the one thing that I think

866
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 3: is great about that is that it's pushed every journalist

867
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 3: to think so so carefully about every piece of their

868
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 3: reporting process and every way in which they could better

869
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 3: serve their audience. And so that kind of co production

870
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 3: between television, digital, article writing, and podcasting audio. It was hard,

871
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 3: It was a lot of work, but it was also

872
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 3: really probably the best experience of my career today.

873
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, you know, I

874
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: think just from what you've shared today, like you have

875
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 1: shared some stories that are typically focused on things like

876
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,919
Speaker 1: racism and like really exposing these uglier sides I think

877
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 1: of society, and we know with everything going on with

878
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: trying to roll back DEI initiatives and like people not

879
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: wanting to be cause of the carpet.

880
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 2: On some of this kinds of stuff.

881
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: Can you share a little bit about any advocacy you've

882
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: had to do for like particular stories to be told,

883
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 1: and maybe suggestions for other journalists for how they really

884
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: fight for their stories that they think are important.

885
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:04,399
Speaker 2: Yeah.

886
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 3: I've had VI for stories since the very beginning when

887
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 3: I was an immigration reporter at Vice. Honestly even before that,

888
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 3: when I was actually just an assistant to a producer

889
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 3: my very first job working as a digital video producer

890
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 3: on BAF of a couple other correspondents, we wanted to

891
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,320
Speaker 3: cover Black Lives Matter protests at the time, tell stories

892
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 3: about immigrant communities, and it was difficult at times to

893
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 3: push stories through. You would pitch them and people would

894
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 3: have maybe no frame of reference for the community that

895
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 3: you were hoping to cover, and so they would say, oh,

896
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 3: I don't know that people really care about that. I

897
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 3: remember that in my early career, and I remember thinking,

898
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 3: just I think you don't care about that, But that

899
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 3: doesn't mean people don't care about that, and that we

900
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 3: don't have an audience or untapped community that we could serve.

901
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 3: And so, you know, there were a few times when

902
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 3: I learned very early, like, oh, our stories can get

903
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 3: shot down very quickly sometimes in these rooms if you

904
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 3: don't come ready, and you learn through repetition, through reps.

905
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 3: A lot of journalists will use that phrase to describe

906
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 3: sort of how they build up their body of work,

907
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 3: their skill in the field. They'll talk about getting their

908
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 3: reps in, and the same goes for the pitching process.

909
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 2: The first is a very basic piece of advice.

910
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 3: So, if you're a journalist of color or someone interested

911
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 3: in doing this work, when you pitch, our work has

912
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 3: to be airtight. So that means when you pitch, you're

913
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 3: not just saying, hey, I have a vague idea of

914
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,919
Speaker 3: this vague place you could go, and I haven't made

915
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 3: any phone calls yet, but this is what I'm thinking.

916
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 3: That works sometimes for some people, but often for us

917
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,760
Speaker 3: there's a higher bar. Maybe our bosses don't know anything

918
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 3: about that city, they don't know why maternal mortality rates

919
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 3: are higher in our community. You have to spell it

920
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 3: out for them. You got to come with the facts.

921
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 3: You got to do your research, have your sources ready.

922
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 3: So if someone says I don't really believe that, you

923
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 3: can say, actually, here, let me read this to you.

924
00:47:58,680 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 2: I came ready.

925
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 3: I used to go to some of my early pitch

926
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 3: meetings advice with packets of notes to myself so that

927
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 3: if someone questioned my authority, my ability, I was ready

928
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 3: and I was always polite and I was gracious, but

929
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 3: I knew, especially as a young woman of color, I

930
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 3: really needed to be armed with all of that.

931
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 2: I couldn't just go in ready to coast.

932
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 3: And you know, I've pulled this off a hundred times,

933
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 3: so let me do it again. No, there's a bar

934
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 3: there that we need to clear, and we also just

935
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 3: need to protect ourselves, and that's how we do it.

936
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 3: So that's my first piece of advice, is to over prepare.

937
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 3: I'm sure your parents probably said the same thing to

938
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 3: you that mine did, which is that you were going

939
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 3: to work twice as hard to go half as far.

940
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 3: Still applies in so many cases, and this is one

941
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 3: of those in which you over prepare. The second is

942
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 3: when you are in the field and you do encounter trouble,

943
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 3: somebody cancels something on you, You're unsure about a decision

944
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 3: you need to make. You're covering a protest, and sometimes

945
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 3: you literally don't know which street to turn down, where

946
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 3: to go, or what's the safest decision to make. Call

947
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 3: on people, ask your colleagues, your managers, editors for support,

948
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 3: and loop them into your work so that they're invested

949
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 3: in you, your decision making and they have transparency into

950
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 3: how you're doing what you do.

951
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 2: I was very.

952
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 3: Careful about doing that early in my career because I

953
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 3: wanted to do ambitious things out on the border or

954
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 3: covering policing, and I wanted to go to neighborhoods that

955
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 3: perhaps those teams had never traveled to. And so what

956
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 3: I did was not just come ready to pitch really well.

957
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 3: But then I've made some of the people in the

958
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,919
Speaker 3: office who doubted me I wove them into my work

959
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 3: so that they were actually invested and interconnected to it,

960
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 3: And then on the back end when I came home.

961
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 3: I think because I almost at times was good at

962
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 3: tricking them into thinking this was their idea all along,

963
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 3: or that they've been on the ride with me, I

964
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 3: had additional support from them on the back end as

965
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 3: the story wasetting ready to come out. You know, these

966
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 3: last few years at NBC, I've been really blessed to

967
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 3: work with incredibly diverse teams now, to have bosses and

968
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 3: mentors and positions of power who when I come to

969
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 3: pitch them about things.

970
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 2: Like South Lake, wasn't that hard of a cell. I

971
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 2: gotta be honest with you.

972
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 3: I was pretty new to NBC at the time, but

973
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 3: we were able to get them to see how important

974
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 3: this story was and the beat, more broadly beat meaning

975
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,240
Speaker 3: sort of the topic of coverage, the need for NBC

976
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 3: to be a leader in covering the anti CRT anti

977
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 3: DEI race related backlash happening all over the country in schools.

978
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 3: Of course, that was where it sort of first began,

979
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 3: but we're now seeing it in all these workplaces, and

980
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,839
Speaker 3: NBC has been so good on that coverage in part

981
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,720
Speaker 3: because they bought in really early. They saw the signs

982
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 3: so early, and they gave us the resources, the money,

983
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 3: the time and the space to go do it really well.

984
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,720
Speaker 3: And again that even too goes back to reps, because

985
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 3: as you build a body of work and you rack

986
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 3: up one win after another, you show that you're capable

987
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,399
Speaker 3: of doing this good reporting, that you go out there

988
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 3: and you get great interviews, that you're transparent and communicative,

989
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 3: and you folded people into your process that you've thought

990
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 3: about journalism not as this individual conquest, but actually as

991
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 3: a team sport and a community service. That's when you

992
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 3: really start to get a lot of buy into your work.

993
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 3: And so now I'm at a place where that doesn't

994
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 3: mean every single thing I want to do that I

995
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 3: get to do, but I am in a place where

996
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 3: now I feel that I have a lot of professional

997
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 3: support and it means I'm going into my stories, I'm

998
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 3: going into my pitches and my ideas with a lot

999
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 3: of confidence. But it takes time to build that, and

1000
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 3: you can't do it alone, especially as a person of color,

1001
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 3: especially if you're an immigrant, especially if you want to

1002
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 3: cover a community with English as a second language. You

1003
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 3: are going to have to think more creatively about how

1004
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 3: do I get people who might not see the vision

1005
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 3: with me immediately, How do I get them to buy

1006
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 3: into this, How do I get them to see and

1007
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 3: feel the value? How do I get them to mentor

1008
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 3: me even if maybe I'm not thinking about it in

1009
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 3: that way in the beginning. That's a lot of how

1010
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 3: reporters like me operate, and then we lean on each other.

1011
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 3: I call my friends. I friends at The New York Times.

1012
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 3: I have friends at CNN and ABC. I have friends

1013
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 3: who have left journalism but were amazing journalists for decades.

1014
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 3: I still call all the time, and I lean on

1015
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 3: them for decisions I need to make that are big

1016
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 3: and small. And that's I think, how we figure it out.

1017
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:40,280
Speaker 3: And it's funny to bring it kind of full circle.

1018
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 3: I think when I was little, I would have told

1019
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 3: you that I was watching my aunt do this work,

1020
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 3: and I thought.

1021
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,239
Speaker 2: That she was just so cool and that she had

1022
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 2: it all.

1023
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,399
Speaker 3: Figured out and she was so smart, and everything went

1024
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:55,399
Speaker 3: through like that. But I realize now, seeing so many

1025
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 3: different phases of her career, how many times she said

1026
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 3: to reinvent herself, had to strategize, had to build relationships,

1027
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 3: had to make the case for herself, and it's a

1028
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:12,839
Speaker 3: lifelong process in your career, and it's one that in

1029
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 3: a way, you actually revisit with every new story you

1030
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 3: choose to tell. She made it look easy a lot

1031
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 3: at the time, but I've come to discover.

1032
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:21,360
Speaker 2: That that wasn't the case.

1033
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 3: But that hasn't made it any less rewarding for her,

1034
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 3: and I admire that fight.

1035
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, sol Antonia, I'm sure you, like many of us,

1036
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: have paid attention to. It feels like every day there's

1037
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: unfortunately like another announcement of layoffs at different media outlets,

1038
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:40,959
Speaker 1: and it does feel like it's a very difficult time

1039
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: I think for journalism. Can you talk to maybe students

1040
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,280
Speaker 1: or people who maybe were considering or want to consider

1041
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,959
Speaker 1: going into the field about what's keeping you hopeful about

1042
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: journalism and like what they can prepare for as the

1043
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:56,760
Speaker 1: job market may seem a little kind of daunting.

1044
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is daunting, and I'm very real when I

1045
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,759
Speaker 3: talk to college students or grad students about this that

1046
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 3: there is no shame I think in looking at the

1047
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,359
Speaker 3: field right now and deciding that it's not for you

1048
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 3: at this moment. People come to journalism from a lot

1049
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 3: of different paths. Sometimes it's a straightforward one like mine,

1050
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 3: where you do some internships in college and you realize

1051
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:21,720
Speaker 3: you've loved it your whole life, and so you apply

1052
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 3: and then you start, and then here you are. But

1053
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 3: I work with people who worked in a bunch of

1054
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 3: different fields first, who've been lawyers first, who've been doctors

1055
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 3: and scientists first, who've been politicians first, who've been community organizers,

1056
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 3: and then they become journalists later. That's really common. This

1057
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 3: is a field that's actually very open to unusual paths.

1058
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 3: And I don't know that people see that sometimes from

1059
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 3: the outside, because I think you see like a couple

1060
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 3: of the big anchors or people who are really elevated

1061
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 3: at the forefront of our field, and you see that

1062
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 3: maybe some of them have similar or they've all gone

1063
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 3: to XYZ journalism in school. But actually the reality is

1064
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 3: that the field is incredibly diverse, and that a lot

1065
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 3: of people come from surprising and sometimes strange career paths,

1066
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 3: and that they've landed in journalism almost by accident.

1067
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 2: So know this.

1068
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:17,240
Speaker 3: Know that if in your first year out of college,

1069
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 3: you don't figure out a way to make a journalism

1070
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 3: job work for you, or you look at what's happening,

1071
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 3: and now is not the time. That does not mean

1072
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 3: you will never get your shot and your chance. If

1073
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 3: you love it, keep reading it, keep loving it, and

1074
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 3: know that you could find yourself here.

1075
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:35,919
Speaker 2: Years or decades later.

1076
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:39,719
Speaker 3: Surely decades later, people make pivots into this field all

1077
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:43,319
Speaker 3: the time. If you can make it work, if you

1078
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 3: study journalism undergrad you have some great professors who set

1079
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 3: you up with job interviews and opportunities.

1080
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 2: Find mentors, find.

1081
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 3: People who will support you, who will look at your

1082
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 3: scripts and tell you honestly how to improve your writing.

1083
00:55:58,280 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 3: We will tell you when your pitch is not good,

1084
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 3: who will give it to you straight, because that is

1085
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:06,399
Speaker 3: the kind of honesty that really moves the needle, that

1086
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 3: transforms you, that makes you improve very quickly early on.

1087
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 3: And that's important in this industry. Figuring out how to

1088
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:19,360
Speaker 3: write well, figuring out how to communicate well, it's paramount.

1089
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 3: And so finding people who will really have your back

1090
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,919
Speaker 3: as you're in those messy early days of it, that's

1091
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 3: really important. It's almost as important as just the basic

1092
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 3: functions of whatever first job you do. So finding that

1093
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 3: support and I tell people too, a lot of journalists

1094
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 3: they get their jobs. They get their opportunities by cold

1095
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 3: pitching and cold reaching out to people. I got my

1096
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 3: very first job in journalism out of college by emailing

1097
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 3: an alum that went to my same college. She had

1098
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:53,319
Speaker 3: never met me, and I just asked her she would

1099
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 3: talk to me on the phone, and then I got

1100
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 3: her on the phone. I wouldn't let her get off

1101
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 3: the phone, and I told her all these skills that

1102
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 3: I had, and she sort of said mmm, okay, and

1103
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 3: then she thought about things for a couple of days

1104
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 3: and she called me back and they had created a

1105
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,280
Speaker 3: position for me to be an assistant to a producer.

1106
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 3: So that's how I got my first job, was just

1107
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 3: by But I think I blacked out on that phone call.

1108
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:14,839
Speaker 3: I don't really remember what I said to her, but

1109
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 3: I went crazy, just being like I can do this.

1110
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 3: I'm a good writer, I'll do that. I know how

1111
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 3: to operate a camera.

1112
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 2: I can help with this. I love these kinds of stories.

1113
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 2: I see that your companies try to do this on YouTube.

1114
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 2: I know YouTube. I grew up on YouTube. You didn't

1115
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 2: so let me do it, you know.

1116
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 3: I was trying to find their vulnerabilities and say I'm

1117
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 3: a young, hungry person who will figure that thing out

1118
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 3: that you haven't figured out, and so cold email people.

1119
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 3: You can even cold email me. I can actually get

1120
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 3: emails and Instagram messages from young people all the time

1121
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 3: who want to talk about journalism, and I get on

1122
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 3: the phone with them or I zoom with them, or

1123
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 3: whatever you might think like, oh it's a little cringey,

1124
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 3: or I don't want to email this person on LinkedIn

1125
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 3: or whatever change is lives. I'm a big believer in that,

1126
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 3: in just being bold and going for it and having conversations.

1127
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,479
Speaker 2: This is a relationship based business, so.

1128
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 3: Having the confidence introduce yourself to someone goes a very

1129
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 3: long way. And so it's that kind of balance of advice.

1130
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 3: The layoffs are real, the difficulty is real, The stakes

1131
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 3: of the job are hard. It's not something that I

1132
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 3: think is necessarily fun or easy to manage for everyone.

1133
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 2: But if you do think, after seeing all.

1134
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 3: That you love this, you want to do this, okay,

1135
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 3: then be bold, find the people who are going to

1136
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 3: have your back, reach out and build the network that

1137
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 3: will carry you through. Because for my friends who have

1138
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 3: experienced layoffs advice I used to work there a bunch

1139
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 3: of layoffs. Recently, one of the most difficult transformations in

1140
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 3: the media space where just the last few years to

1141
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 3: see that place go from here to here. The network,

1142
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 3: though built through that place is what has allowed all

1143
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:56,160
Speaker 3: my friends to get back on their feet to do

1144
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 3: incredible work for all kinds of companies in the last

1145
00:58:58,840 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 3: few months.

1146
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 2: So it's really that piece.

1147
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 3: I think that if you know you love it, then okay,

1148
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 3: not only do you need to figure out the skills

1149
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 3: and how to do the job itself, but the other

1150
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 3: half of your job is building your support group, finding

1151
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 3: your friends, and finding your mentors. Last little piece of

1152
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 3: advice I'll drop for any young person interested in media

1153
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 3: is always follow up with people a second or third time.

1154
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 3: We get a lot of emails, we get a lot

1155
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 3: of pr filling up our inboxes and stuff. So if

1156
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 3: a journalist or someone who works in entertainment or media

1157
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 3: doesn't get back to you on your first email, always

1158
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 3: send them a second or third.

1159
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 2: There's no shame. They're busy. People. Fight for yourself, Be

1160
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 2: bold and.

1161
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 3: Reach out to people like me because we love to

1162
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 3: hear from you, and we only have the opportunities that

1163
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 3: we have because someone answered the call when we made

1164
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 3: it a few years ago. So take advantage of that beautiful.

1165
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 1: So I know that you are paying attention to this

1166
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 1: moment in history where it looks like Vice President Kamala

1167
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 1: Harris will be the Democratic presidential nominee, and so I'd

1168
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 1: love for you to share a little bit about which

1169
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 1: you think Black Women's journal is role will be in

1170
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 1: covering this historic campaign and really kind of shaping the

1171
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 1: narrative around it.

1172
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 3: Oh, I think our role is that we're at the

1173
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:13,120
Speaker 3: front of it, and we're going to do some of

1174
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 3: the best reporting, not just on the race itself, but

1175
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 3: I think we do some of the best reporting on democracy.

1176
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 3: We get through to some of the voters who feel

1177
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 3: the most ignored and unheard. And now I think with

1178
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 3: someone like her mixing up this race to the extent

1179
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 3: that she has mixed it all up and shifted the game,

1180
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 3: I think that our stories are now going to be

1181
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 3: I think they've always been really important, but I think

1182
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 3: they're not going to.

1183
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 2: Be seen as additionally important. So I got to give

1184
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 2: a shout out.

1185
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 3: You know, I have a colleague, yamichhe Elsendor who has

1186
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 3: been covering Kamala Harris the entire time before all of

1187
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 3: this happened, and her stories have been amazing, but now

1188
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 3: I think even more people are going to be seeing

1189
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 3: what she does for NBC every day. I think there

1190
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 3: are a bunch of black women on that beat who

1191
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 3: are now just going to get the opportunity to really

1192
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 3: show their chops. So I'm excited for them on a

1193
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 3: professional level and personal level. The other thing I'm excited

1194
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 3: to see is just, well, what kinds of voters do

1195
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 3: we now hear from on a daily basis on television already? Myself,

1196
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 3: I was just in Michigan the other day talking to

1197
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 3: a lot of black and Muslim voters, and a lot

1198
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:28,480
Speaker 3: of them were feeling disconnected from President Joe Biden. They

1199
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:30,439
Speaker 3: were not so sure that they were going to vote

1200
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 3: for him, and a lot of them are giving Vice

1201
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 3: President Harris a second look. They now feel that at

1202
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 3: a minimum, the Democratic Party has at least responded to

1203
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 3: one of their requests, which was to replace Biden at

1204
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 3: the top of the ticket. That okay, there's movement, there's

1205
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 3: a way to push them on some of the issues

1206
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 3: that matter to us.

1207
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 2: So now, what demands do they.

1208
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 3: Make of her? Do they feel heard by her? How

1209
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 3: does she travel and actually meet with these voters? And

1210
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 3: communicate with them. I think that's going to be really

1211
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 3: interesting to watch. I think when school back, when people

1212
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 3: are back at college campuses across our country in late

1213
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 3: August and early September, I think it's very likely we're

1214
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 3: going to see protests like what we saw happen in

1215
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:13,680
Speaker 3: the spring over again. So does Vice President Harris as

1216
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,360
Speaker 3: the likely nominee. Does she take a different approach than

1217
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 3: the administration has taken in the past. Does she talk

1218
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:22,560
Speaker 3: to young people concerned about the war in Israel and

1219
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 3: Gaza in a different way?

1220
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 2: What might that look like. I think that's going to

1221
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 2: be a story to watch.

1222
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:31,440
Speaker 3: And I think too what might be interesting is I

1223
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 3: think a lot of voters are nervous about the fact

1224
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:36,919
Speaker 3: that with her now elevated in this position, they're going

1225
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 3: to see additional racist and sexist attacks, and how.

1226
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:43,000
Speaker 2: Painful might it be to see all of that.

1227
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 3: But I think too that it actually is an opportunity

1228
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:49,640
Speaker 3: for a lot of people in our field to reckon

1229
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:54,040
Speaker 3: with some of those aspects of our politics, to do

1230
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:56,800
Speaker 3: quality journalism on that. And I mean that not just

1231
01:02:56,840 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 3: for the black reporters, but for white reporters. Well, well,

1232
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 3: it's an opportunity to figure out how to address and

1233
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 3: properly name and hold people accountable when certain remarks more

1234
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:12,000
Speaker 3: dog whistles are made. And so I think that while

1235
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 3: it is going to be chaotic, it's going to be

1236
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:16,439
Speaker 3: very busy. I'm sure there are going to be nights

1237
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 3: when I do not get a whole lot of sleep

1238
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 3: covering what I have to cover in the next few months.

1239
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 3: In a way, I think there is a renewed sense

1240
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 3: of energy right now, not just from the electorate around

1241
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:31,120
Speaker 3: their options, but also from journalists who now have to

1242
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 3: think about the race that they're covering and the people

1243
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:37,440
Speaker 3: that matter and the voices they need to speak to

1244
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 3: in a new way. And I am really hopeful that

1245
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 3: everyone's going to rise to that occasion. I know I'm

1246
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 3: going to work really hard to tell good stories that

1247
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 3: break through.

1248
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 2: In that way.

1249
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 3: And I think that this change in the race is

1250
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 3: opening up a real window for all.

1251
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 1: That beautiful well. I know we will want to stay

1252
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:57,680
Speaker 1: tuned to the things you and your colleagues are sharing,

1253
01:03:58,080 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 1: So if you could share with us how do we

1254
01:04:00,160 --> 01:04:02,240
Speaker 1: connected with you? Do you have a website as well

1255
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 1: as any social media handles you'd like to share?

1256
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 2: I do.

1257
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 3: My website's very easy. It's Antonia Hilton dot com. The

1258
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 3: only thing funny is that my last name is spelled

1259
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:15,479
Speaker 3: with a wide instead of an eye, so keep an eye.

1260
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:16,000
Speaker 2: Out for that.

1261
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:19,600
Speaker 3: And then on socials, I'm a Hilton twenty six on

1262
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 3: literally everything beautiful.

1263
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending some time with us today, Antonia.

1264
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it.

1265
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:26,920
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

1266
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:30,600
Speaker 3: I love your work, I love the pod, and it's

1267
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 3: really an honor to be able to be in conversation

1268
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:35,040
Speaker 3: with you and to do this, So thanks for having me.

1269
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm so glad Antonia was able to join

1270
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:44,200
Speaker 1: me for this conversation. To learn more about her and

1271
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 1: the work she's doing, or to grab a copy of

1272
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 1: her book. This is the show Notes a therapy from

1273
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:52,040
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot Com slash Session three seventy seven, and don't

1274
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:54,280
Speaker 1: forget to text two of your girls right now and

1275
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 1: tell them to check off the episode. If you're looking

1276
01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 1: for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory

1277
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if

1278
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 1: you want to continue digging into this topic or just

1279
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 1: be in community with other sisters, come on over and

1280
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:11,040
Speaker 1: join us. In the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner

1281
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 1: of the Internet designed just for black women. You can

1282
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 1: join us at Community dot Therapy for blackgirls dot com.

1283
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor.

1284
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 1: Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much

1285
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to

1286
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:30,160
Speaker 1: continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.

1287
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 2: What's