WEBVTT - Tom Petty and the Creation of “Wildflowers” 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:14.880 Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.800 all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:19.960 which you can find a link to in the show 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.720 notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:28.960 in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect. All right, 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:33.239 enjoyed the episode. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. Welcome to 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:37.400 Broken Record. This is the final episode of our first season, 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:41.000 and it's a special episode because it's about Tom Petty. 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:43.760 Every now and again there is an artist who provides 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:47.080 the soundtrack for his or her generation. I think Tom 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:49.640 Petty was one of those people. He died in October 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:53.680 twenty seventeen after a fortieth anniversary tour with his band 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:57.160 The Heartbreakers. Only a few weeks after his passing, Rick 0:00:57.240 --> 0:00:59.920 Rubin and I met at Rick Studio to talk about 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:04.320 Tom Petty, in particular about the contrast between that effortless, 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:09.040 laconic California sound and the man behind it. We didn't 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:10.760 think of this at the time as something that we 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:13.600 would turn into an episode. We were just sitting in 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:17.160 the old Bob Dylan tour bus at Shango La, drinking tea. 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:19.840 I was never really a Tom Petty fan growing up. 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:23.399 I liked more aggressive music before that, punk rock and 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.120 harder things. He was a little melodic for my taste. 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:31.679 And then The Full Moon Fever came out. I remember 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:33.920 I bought it after I heard maybe the third or 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:36.800 fourth single, which was a lot of singles in a 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:39.720 row to be really good, to think, Wow, there's something here. 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:42.240 It's like, this is beyond just a good song. And 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:43.800 I bought the album, and I remember I listened to 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:45.920 it every day, over and over. It was the only 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:47.760 CD I had in my car for probably a year. 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:52.160 It's perfect driving music. It moved Ricks so much that 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:54.640 he wanted to work with Tom Petty, and when Petty 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.600 signed a new deal with Warner Brothers Records, Moe Austin, 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:01.279 the head of Warner Brothers, made that happen. Between nineteen 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:03.800 ninety two and nineteen ninety four, Rick and Tom Petty 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:10.720 recorded a mid career masterpiece and one of Petty's favorite records, Wildflowers. 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:13.919 We started making Wildflowers, which is the album in question, 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.960 and part of him getting out of his MCA deal 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:21.400 a record early was to deliver a greatest hits record, 0:02:21.440 --> 0:02:23.560 and part of delivering the greatest hits record was to 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.360 add two new songs to it, and it's hard to 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:28.480 write a song to fit in with the greatest songs 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.200 you've ever written. It's just a difficult task. Almost every 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:35.680 time that happens, it doesn't work out well. And we 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:39.399 were already working on Wildflowers, and Tom very wisely said, 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:41.640 you know, I feel like what we're making here is 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:48.240 a very specific body of work, and even though we're 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:50.440 in the middle of this, if we have to do 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:52.760 songs for the Greatest Hits album, I'd rather do them 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:56.560 separately in a separate studio and kind of think of 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:59.519 it as its own thing. So while we were set 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:02.079 up it Sounds City working on Wildflowers, we set up 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:07.000 at Oceanway with slightly different band. The original drummer of 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:11.079 the Heartbreakers was in that session, not in the Wildflower sessions, 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:16.520 so it was the entire original Heartbreakers, and we did 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:21.080 two songs, one of which was Last Dance with Mary Jane, 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:23.360 and that was on the Greatest Hits So it was 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:26.120 like to write a hit to order for the Greatest 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:29.400 Hits album was an unbelievable feat. And then we also 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:33.960 recorded at that time with those with that band. Maybe 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:36.720 I want to say we probably recorded about fifty songs, 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:41.520 just because there was such a machine of a band. 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:43.920 They had been a band their whole lives. Have you 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:48.560 seen the Peter Bugdanovich documentary, Yeah, really worth seeing. It's 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:51.680 like four hours long, and when you watch it you're 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.120 owed by how many great songs he has, Like one 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:56.360 after it's like, how can there be this many good 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.320 songs from one person? You don't put it together that 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.320 it's all. So the band had been a band since 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:05.120 they were in high school together. All knew each other, 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:07.480 they knew a million songs. They used to play cover songs. 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.240 So because we had the band in the studio and 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:13.440 I think Tom was kind of having fun. Once we 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:15.840 got the heavy lifting out of the way of getting 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.800 the song we needed, he said the second song would 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:20.560 be a cover song, and he thought it would be 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:23.479 this thunderclap Newman song, which it ended up being. But 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:25.679 we recorded, as they say, about fifty songs to choose 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:30.120 from fifty. Probably how unusual is that it's not a 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:32.279 lot of bands can do it. It's like it's you 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:34.200 have to be really good to be able to do that. 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.400 But those songs, many of which ended up there was 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:41.119 a white box set called playback. Most of those songs 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:43.800 were on playback, so it wasn't just for I mean 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:45.720 we didn't know that. We didn't know they'd ever come out. 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:47.800 It was just sort of having fun. But while they 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:49.880 were in there, we thought, let's take advantage of let's 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:51.960 just play a bunch of songs. What was How did 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:55.040 they write music? Was it very collective? No? It was 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:57.479 usually Town with an acoustic guitar. More often than not, 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:01.480 would write a song by himself. Then he would often 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:05.560 make homemade demo with a drum machine and put on 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:09.279 the parts that he wanted, So more often than not, 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:12.920 there would be a demo that sounded like a less 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.440 professional version of the final that we would bring to 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:19.440 the band, and then that would be the starting point 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:23.039 that we'd work. He's writing music and lyrics, everything, everything, everything. 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:27.799 Now the other members of the band contribute a tremendous amount, 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.080 but the initial framework was always set by Tom First. 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.080 On occasion, Mike Campbell would bring in a guitar, a 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:38.719 guitar idea first, or maybe even a guitar bassed song, 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:41.080 and then Tom would take that, rework it and make 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:45.040 it into a Tom Petty song. But probably one or 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.480 two an album. Maybe, is there anyone you've worked with 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.360 who is who compares to Petty and so terms of 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:54.359 how prolific they are, I don't know that he was 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.080 always so prolific. I think he would go through phases 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:58.640 because I remember there were a couple of years where 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.680 songs were not coming so quickly, and when we recorded 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.000 the fifty songs, they weren't all necessarily new songs. A 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:06.920 lot of them were songs they remember from growing up. 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.920 Some may have been old songs of theirs that they 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.480 never recorded. Some of them may have been Elvis songs 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:14.960 or just songs they like. How long were you in 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:18.520 the studio in that for the Wildflowers album, we were 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.400 in for around two years, but it wasn't every day. 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:23.839 It'd be like whenever there was stuff to do. So 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:26.680 he'd like, he'd have five songs and he's like, let's 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:28.440 record these five, and we'd go in and it would 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:30.240 be a couple of weeks of work or maybe a 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.960 month of work to get those five, and then he 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:35.640 would go back to writing, and then maybe two months 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:37.800 later there'd be another batch. It wouldn't do the same thing, 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:39.920 and then at the end we would take it all 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:43.359 and kind of do whatever it took to get him done. 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.159 So you get him in one of his fertile periods. Yes, 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:52.000 and I had very good fortune in that. The full 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:53.800 mun Fever album, the one that I loved, he made 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.599 with Jeff Lynn, who's from Electric Light Orchestra, who's a 0:06:56.760 --> 0:07:03.080 really brilliant musician and songwriter. They did the Traveling Wheelberries together, 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:10.000 and Jeff Lynn really was a hard ass about the songs. 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:12.880 The songs had to be good and sort of pop 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:17.080 song power. So for several years before I got to 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:21.360 work with him, he'd been sort of whipped into the 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:24.200 song is the most important thing in the world shape. 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:28.000 And then our styles of production are very different, so 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:33.160 jeff is more methodical. Everything has to be in time 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.360 and in tune. He won't record a drummer playing the drums. 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.160 He'll record a drummer playing one drum, so like for 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.200 the whole song, he'll just play the kick drum the 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:43.120 whole song. He'll just play the high hat the whole song. 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:49.560 He'll play the toms, so everything is very controlled and 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:55.240 meticulous and perfect. I try to make more, at least 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.000 in this case, it was more about the organic moment 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.080 where it felt it felt more live and more human 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.480 warts and all, not to make it sound I would 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.760 call it like hyper real. So it was. It sounded real, 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:16.960 but real on a particularly good night like not not randomly, 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.840 they're just playing it. It was a very good version, 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:27.400 that precision of jeff Lynn. Yeah, you can hear it 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:31.800 in Full Moon Fever. But you but you responded to 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.560 that you liked ful? Yeah, I loved it. I loved it. 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:37.640 I wouldn't make it in that way, but it's got 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:40.840 great power. When you go back and listen to full moviever, 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:45.800 can you detect the Jeff Lynn influence? Absolutely? What's the thing? 0:08:45.920 --> 0:08:48.040 Can we play it? Can we play a song? Absolutely? 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:52.680 So there are a couple of Tom Petty songs that 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:56.360 are anthems. Yes, they get played it like that gets 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:59.720 played in sports, and that's very it seems very counter 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.120 to the ethos. But now I understand why. The precision 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:07.840 of it is what gives it its its anthemic martial quality. 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:09.559 And of course it's going to be played at football 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:11.319 games when they are but I think I think the 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:13.400 leason they played at football games is also I won't 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:15.880 back down. I know, you know, I mean no, but 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:18.520 it's that. But it's it's the lyric, but it's overlaid. 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:22.920 The song is is it's like a marching down the road. 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.760 Very it's disciplined and absolutely but it's at odds with 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:31.719 his image as a kind of hippie yeah, mellow, and 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:35.679 this is not his hippie window of music. And that's 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:40.880 another interesting thing about the times. It's like Tom was 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:45.200 able to manage the changes of the styles of music 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:50.600 that happened, still sounding like Tom Petty, but being of 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:54.240 the moment as well. So like his earlier music, like 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:55.920 he came out first when it was kind of more 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:57.840 punk rocky and it had a little bit more of 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:01.600 a punk edge. And then that time in music, drum 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:06.319 machines were getting popular, so everything on the radio sounded 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:11.680 much more like that, even though rarely was it a 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:16.120 rock band, but it had that sort of formality. So 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:19.800 he was able to morph with health. Do you think 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:21.760 he was doing that consciously or is he just so 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.720 in tune with the kind of zeitgeist that he moved along. 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:29.760 I think it was a combination of combination of being 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:33.320 in tune and picking the right people to work with 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:36.280 at the right time for what was going on. And 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:37.880 I don't think he did that consciously. I think he 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:39.680 did it based on who he liked. I know. The 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:43.160 way he started working with Jeff was, from what I understand, 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:44.760 was just sort of a mistake. I think they saw 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:46.920 each other in cars driving down the stream, just like, hey, 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.160 why don't we get together and do some really Yeah? 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:53.319 I think so. So now play me something from Wildflowers 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:55.720 he did with him, the one that came out. Yeah, okay, 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:58.200 so I can, and I want to understand the difference 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:01.080 between the Jeff Lynn and the feel Yes, just the 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:06.200 production stuff. Do you remember anything specific about about the 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.080 making of that song. Yeah, I remember I suggested that 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:13.559 we try a song using that beat. The song was 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.560 already written, but I said, let's try it with this beat. 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.040 And it was sort of inspired by the beat the 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:26.160 boom boom boom boom ca, which was inspired by Steve Miller. Oh, 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.760 Steve Miller. Yeah, Oh that's it makes the feels like, 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:31.480 why don't we do it kind of in a Steve 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:36.640 Miller kind of a rhythmic vibe. Was he very open 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:41.240 to suggestion, absolutely more so than other artists. Not unusual, 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:43.640 I mean especially I will say it was the first 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:48.560 album we made together, and the nature of my experience 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:51.240 with him is the first time anybody works with him, 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:55.240 he's on his best behavior. He's the most receptive and 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:57.880 willing to do the most work. And then maybe on 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.560 the fifth album we made together, he may not have 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:07.600 been as willing to go that extra distance. I think 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:10.280 he liked to impress the people who but I feel 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:11.880 like he already did that, so he didn't need to 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:18.720 do that anymore. Did you which iteration did you prefer? Early? Early? 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:21.320 And I like what not, Not that he was trying 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:23.400 to please me, but that he was willing to do 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:24.760 whatever it took for it to be as good as 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.760 it could be. That's always the most fun. Do you 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:32.760 consider Wildflowers to be his kind of creative high watermark? 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:38.280 It's one of he's had. He's had probably probably three. 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.360 Damn the Torpedoes would have been the first one, and 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:46.640 then the Jeff Lynn and then Wildflowers. I think those 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:51.240 are probably the three peak moments. We'll be back with 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:55.560 more on Tom Petty's Wildflowers with Rick Rubin after this break. 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:04.559 We're back with more on Tom Petty's Wildflowers. Petty and 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:07.520 Rick Rubin recorded dozens of songs during the two year 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:11.000 sessions for Wildflowers, but only one disc ever came out. 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.000 There's still an entire disc out there that's never seen 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:16.640 the light of day. Rick actually played it for me 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.200 in the most Rick way ever. He just called it 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:22.360 up on his iPhone and it was amazing. But I'm 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:24.800 afraid we can't share it with you. You'll just have 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:28.120 to wait for its official release. So tell me how 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:32.920 it came to be that you had these two records. Well, 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:36.640 we recorded over this two year period. We recorded probably 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:43.360 twenty sick between twenty six and twenty eight songs, and 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:45.480 we didn't really know what was going to be on 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:47.520 the album. And then at the end of it, we thought, wow, 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:50.079 this is all good. Let's this is This could be 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:52.720 a great double album, and we put it together as 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:55.120 a double album and we brought it to the record company, 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:58.800 and the record company suggested it be a single album, 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:00.760 not because they didn't like the double album, but they 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:05.840 just said, commercially in the marketplace, having a double album 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:08.400 wasn't necessarily a great thing to do. And it was 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:10.760 their first it was his first album with Warner Brothers. 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:14.040 They just wanted what was best. They really wanted what 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.680 was best for Tom and surprise. You know, Tom historically 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:23.280 was very anti anyone saying anything about anything. He's very 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:27.840 He did things his way always. It would always fight 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:31.760 the power of authority from any direction. He had a 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.040 fight with MCA for years where they raised the price 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:38.400 of music a dollar and he wouldn't put out a 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:42.000 record unless they sold his at the old price, and 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.400 they wouldn't put it out. And I think he went 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:46.960 two years without putting out any music because he he 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.320 wanted it the way he thought was what he thought 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.200 was right. And he kept his prices ticket prices, Lola, 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:53.800 because he wanted people to be able to see the 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.680 show a lot he had a lot of He cared 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.200 very much about his audience and and doing what he 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.080 thought was right by them. I was a little surprised 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.440 that he decided, but I guess he thought, well, this 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:08.480 may be better for the audience, which is why he 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:11.280 went along with it. I mean, how do you decide 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:14.360 if you have twenty four you come forward with twenty 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:16.240 four songs or what have you, how do you decide 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:18.280 which ones to drop and which ones to go forward with? 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.640 Just experimentation. A lot of it was Tom's instinct and 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.560 some of it was we'd play them in a sequence. 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:28.880 We'd come up with a sequence. Each one of us 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:30.320 might come up with a sequence that we like and 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:32.480 then play it for each other and then say, okay, 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:34.720 well this. You know, these three sound really good together, 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.240 these five sound really good together. And then after hearing 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.560 these you want this feeling. It doesn't really do that yet, 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:42.400 what do we have that could make it feel like that? 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.720 So kind of looking at the arc of the picture. 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:47.720 So there might be like, let's say there are six 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.280 songs that we'd say, no matter what, these six need 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:51.960 to be on it, or these eight, whatever it is, 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.280 and then the balance of it is more what makes 0:15:55.400 --> 0:16:00.360 the journey. You wouldn't We wouldn't do that today, would we? 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:03.080 If we recorded twenty eight songs with an artist today, 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:04.840 we would have the choice of either putting out all 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:06.800 twenty eight without thinking about it. Because there's no such 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:10.200 thing as a singular double album anymore. We might say 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:15.480 in today's world, the nature of the speed of digestion, 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.800 that people's attention span is there for maybe five or 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:23.360 six songs at a time, So maybe it's better to 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:28.280 break it up into four projects and put them out 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:34.720 every form of five months, six months, depending on what happens. 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:37.400 It didn't break you, did it break his heart or 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:39.720 break your heart? About these songs that never got heard, 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.360 I remember feeling a little bad about I loved the album, 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.640 so it wasn't like what we were putting out wasn't good. 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:49.120 I mean, I thought what we put out was. I 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.840 loved it. I absolutely loved it. This is the thing 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:55.360 about musicians versus writers. I've never understood the amount of 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.000 the wastefulness of the musical process is just compared to writing. 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:04.560 If I write a sentence, it will be printed somewhere. 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:08.760 I don't weigh sentences like every single thing I've ever 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:11.000 written has found the lad of day somewhere, Whereas you 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:14.800 guys will leave things on the cutting room floors endless. 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.320 You have no idea. You have no idea that doesn't 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:21.840 drive you. Your screenritter is the same way, where you 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:23.600 know you can be a screenwriter of your whole career 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:26.560 and nothing ever get made. So the end, there's all 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.320 this stuff. I'm always fascinated by the relationship of the 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:34.680 artist to this unknown It's private work. This lost Tom 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:38.280 Petty album is private work. Basically, you and Tom Petty, 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:40.960 who's not even with us anymore, and no one else 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:43.720 does the guys in the band who all love it, 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:51.040 who worked, who labored months over these songs that never 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.000 got released to get them to where they are. Is 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:56.960 there any of those unreleased songs in retrospect that you 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.600 think we really blew it with this song? No, but 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:02.399 they're great. I mean I feel like Wildflowers did exactly 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:04.240 what it was supposed to do. People really love it, 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:07.960 stood the test of time, and these other songs are 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:10.400 When I heard them for the first time, Tom came 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:14.240 over and played him for me, probably maybe two years ago, 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:17.040 two two and a half years ago, and I was 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:21.959 floored by I had like a vague memory of them, 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:24.000 but some of them just hit me, like, Wow, what 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:26.600 a great song. How did we ever? How did we 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:29.240 miss this? So he came by here too, Did you 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:31.520 come here in my house or your house? Yeah? With 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:34.640 the explicit intent to play the Yeah. He's like, I've 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:38.120 been working on the rest of Wildflowers, and I've been 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:40.280 fixing some stuff that wasn't done at the end, like 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:42.440 a couple of mixes and things, and I want to 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:44.760 play it for you. And he came and he played 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:47.240 it for me. Did he want to re release it. Yes, 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:51.040 he did. The issue was he very much wanted to 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:53.639 re release it. He thought it was really important because 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:57.480 the legacy of the Wildflowers album loomed large in his 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:02.080 career and he knew that the second half of Wildflowers 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:06.840 was an important statement. His issue was he didn't want 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:08.840 to put it out as a new Tom Petty album 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:10.480 because it's not a new Tom Petty album. It was 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:13.240 recorded twenty five years ago, and he didn't want to 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:17.200 release it as an old catalog album because he didn't 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.840 he thought it deserved more than being a catalog album. 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.400 He felt like it was too good to just put 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:28.119 out and was sort of looking for the right story 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.760 where it would have the exposure that it deserved, and 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:34.760 he never came up with it. Why couldn't he is 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:37.320 a naive question, But why couldn't he just put it 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:42.680 as a new Tome Petty album. There's something about the 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:48.200 artist's work that has a little bit of a diary 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:53.520 like aspect. You know it. The work reflects a time 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:56.560 in someone's life, and you'll hear when if I were 0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:00.800 to play you Tom's last album and then play you 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:06.359 Wildflowers Too, or whatever it's called, it's it's very different. 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:09.280 So I think that was his thing, was like I 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:12.840 have changed as an artist since then. I love that. 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:14.960 I think I might have told you this. He told 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:21.400 me wildflower scares him because he's not really sure why 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.159 it's as good as it is. So it has this 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:28.160 like haunted feeling for him. What does that mean? He's 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:34.760 not like he loves it, but it he It's not 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:38.080 like he could turn that on again. He could. He 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:40.679 couldn't make wildflowers to today. That was the point. The 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:43.600 point was I can't do this now. This was then, 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:46.560 and it was where I was then, and it was 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:51.800 a prolific period. This is an extension of that moment. 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:54.560 Did he mean I can't make something as good as 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:57.400 that again? Or just that just that just what that is, 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:01.800 what that is, and that scared him? Those were his words. 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:04.680 I was surprised. I was surprised when he said it 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:09.440 was he as artists go unusually introspective about his own work. 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:14.200 I wouldn't say so, but how many artists would say, 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:16.760 would listen to something from twenty years ago, play something 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:19.280 from twenty years ago and say to you, it scares them. 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:22.840 I've never heard anything like that before. It was unusual. 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:24.560 But the closest thing I can remember, and it wasn't 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:26.200 said to me. I just heard it in an interview 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:31.320 was Bob Dylan talking about his early records, saying I 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:33.440 didn't write those, like I don't know who wrote those. 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:36.439 I couldn't write those. It was like that. It was 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:41.800 like something magic happened in that moment, And now looking 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:45.040 back on it, it's a little scary to me. We'll 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:52.240 be back with more broken record after this break. We're 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:56.240 back with more on Tom Petty's Wildflowers with Rick Rubin. 0:21:56.840 --> 0:22:00.240 Why did you guys not just Reese say I can 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:04.000 have two years later? I have no idea. I don't know. Again, 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:06.520 it goes to this waste you're so accustomed to, how 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:09.280 wasteful the process is. Yeah. The next thing he did 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:11.720 was a soundtrack album, and there were a couple of 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:14.200 songs on the soundtrack album that were from those sessions. 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:17.000 Oh is that the soundtrack? Where? Wait, that's really a 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:20.919 really interesting story. It's a yellow album. Somebody comes to 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:23.600 him and says, I want to use one of your 0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:26.880 songs from my movie. Yeah, it's a really small isn't 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:29.000 it an Ed Burns movie? Yeah, it's an Ed Burns 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:32.040 movie and he says she's the one. She's the one. 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:35.360 He's like, I'll write a whole new album about it. 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:39.760