1
00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:14,880
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to

2
00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,800
Speaker 1: all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist,

3
00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:19,960
Speaker 1: which you can find a link to in the show

4
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,720
Speaker 1: notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced

5
00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:28,960
Speaker 1: in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect. All right,

6
00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,239
Speaker 1: enjoyed the episode. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. Welcome to

7
00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,400
Speaker 1: Broken Record. This is the final episode of our first season,

8
00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,000
Speaker 1: and it's a special episode because it's about Tom Petty.

9
00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,760
Speaker 1: Every now and again there is an artist who provides

10
00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,080
Speaker 1: the soundtrack for his or her generation. I think Tom

11
00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,640
Speaker 1: Petty was one of those people. He died in October

12
00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:53,680
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen after a fortieth anniversary tour with his band

13
00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,160
Speaker 1: The Heartbreakers. Only a few weeks after his passing, Rick

14
00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,920
Speaker 1: Rubin and I met at Rick Studio to talk about

15
00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,320
Speaker 1: Tom Petty, in particular about the contrast between that effortless,

16
00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:09,040
Speaker 1: laconic California sound and the man behind it. We didn't

17
00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:10,760
Speaker 1: think of this at the time as something that we

18
00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,600
Speaker 1: would turn into an episode. We were just sitting in

19
00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,160
Speaker 1: the old Bob Dylan tour bus at Shango La, drinking tea.

20
00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:19,840
Speaker 1: I was never really a Tom Petty fan growing up.

21
00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,399
Speaker 1: I liked more aggressive music before that, punk rock and

22
00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,120
Speaker 1: harder things. He was a little melodic for my taste.

23
00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,679
Speaker 1: And then The Full Moon Fever came out. I remember

24
00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:33,920
Speaker 1: I bought it after I heard maybe the third or

25
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,800
Speaker 1: fourth single, which was a lot of singles in a

26
00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,720
Speaker 1: row to be really good, to think, Wow, there's something here.

27
00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,240
Speaker 1: It's like, this is beyond just a good song. And

28
00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:43,800
Speaker 1: I bought the album, and I remember I listened to

29
00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:45,920
Speaker 1: it every day, over and over. It was the only

30
00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:47,760
Speaker 1: CD I had in my car for probably a year.

31
00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,160
Speaker 1: It's perfect driving music. It moved Ricks so much that

32
00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,640
Speaker 1: he wanted to work with Tom Petty, and when Petty

33
00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,600
Speaker 1: signed a new deal with Warner Brothers Records, Moe Austin,

34
00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,279
Speaker 1: the head of Warner Brothers, made that happen. Between nineteen

35
00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:03,800
Speaker 1: ninety two and nineteen ninety four, Rick and Tom Petty

36
00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:10,720
Speaker 1: recorded a mid career masterpiece and one of Petty's favorite records, Wildflowers.

37
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,919
Speaker 1: We started making Wildflowers, which is the album in question,

38
00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,960
Speaker 1: and part of him getting out of his MCA deal

39
00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,400
Speaker 1: a record early was to deliver a greatest hits record,

40
00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:23,560
Speaker 1: and part of delivering the greatest hits record was to

41
00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,360
Speaker 1: add two new songs to it, and it's hard to

42
00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,480
Speaker 1: write a song to fit in with the greatest songs

43
00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,200
Speaker 1: you've ever written. It's just a difficult task. Almost every

44
00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,680
Speaker 1: time that happens, it doesn't work out well. And we

45
00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,399
Speaker 1: were already working on Wildflowers, and Tom very wisely said,

46
00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,640
Speaker 1: you know, I feel like what we're making here is

47
00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:48,240
Speaker 1: a very specific body of work, and even though we're

48
00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,440
Speaker 1: in the middle of this, if we have to do

49
00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,760
Speaker 1: songs for the Greatest Hits album, I'd rather do them

50
00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,560
Speaker 1: separately in a separate studio and kind of think of

51
00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,519
Speaker 1: it as its own thing. So while we were set

52
00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,079
Speaker 1: up it Sounds City working on Wildflowers, we set up

53
00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:07,000
Speaker 1: at Oceanway with slightly different band. The original drummer of

54
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,079
Speaker 1: the Heartbreakers was in that session, not in the Wildflower sessions,

55
00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:16,520
Speaker 1: so it was the entire original Heartbreakers, and we did

56
00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,080
Speaker 1: two songs, one of which was Last Dance with Mary Jane,

57
00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,360
Speaker 1: and that was on the Greatest Hits So it was

58
00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,120
Speaker 1: like to write a hit to order for the Greatest

59
00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,400
Speaker 1: Hits album was an unbelievable feat. And then we also

60
00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,960
Speaker 1: recorded at that time with those with that band. Maybe

61
00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,720
Speaker 1: I want to say we probably recorded about fifty songs,

62
00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:41,520
Speaker 1: just because there was such a machine of a band.

63
00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,920
Speaker 1: They had been a band their whole lives. Have you

64
00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:48,560
Speaker 1: seen the Peter Bugdanovich documentary, Yeah, really worth seeing. It's

65
00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,680
Speaker 1: like four hours long, and when you watch it you're

66
00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,120
Speaker 1: owed by how many great songs he has, Like one

67
00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,360
Speaker 1: after it's like, how can there be this many good

68
00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,320
Speaker 1: songs from one person? You don't put it together that

69
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,320
Speaker 1: it's all. So the band had been a band since

70
00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,120
Speaker 1: they were in high school together. All knew each other,

71
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,480
Speaker 1: they knew a million songs. They used to play cover songs.

72
00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,240
Speaker 1: So because we had the band in the studio and

73
00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,440
Speaker 1: I think Tom was kind of having fun. Once we

74
00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,840
Speaker 1: got the heavy lifting out of the way of getting

75
00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,800
Speaker 1: the song we needed, he said the second song would

76
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:20,560
Speaker 1: be a cover song, and he thought it would be

77
00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,479
Speaker 1: this thunderclap Newman song, which it ended up being. But

78
00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,679
Speaker 1: we recorded, as they say, about fifty songs to choose

79
00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:30,120
Speaker 1: from fifty. Probably how unusual is that it's not a

80
00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,279
Speaker 1: lot of bands can do it. It's like it's you

81
00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,200
Speaker 1: have to be really good to be able to do that.

82
00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,400
Speaker 1: But those songs, many of which ended up there was

83
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,119
Speaker 1: a white box set called playback. Most of those songs

84
00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,800
Speaker 1: were on playback, so it wasn't just for I mean

85
00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:45,720
Speaker 1: we didn't know that. We didn't know they'd ever come out.

86
00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:47,800
Speaker 1: It was just sort of having fun. But while they

87
00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:49,880
Speaker 1: were in there, we thought, let's take advantage of let's

88
00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:51,960
Speaker 1: just play a bunch of songs. What was How did

89
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,040
Speaker 1: they write music? Was it very collective? No? It was

90
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,479
Speaker 1: usually Town with an acoustic guitar. More often than not,

91
00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,480
Speaker 1: would write a song by himself. Then he would often

92
00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,560
Speaker 1: make homemade demo with a drum machine and put on

93
00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,279
Speaker 1: the parts that he wanted, So more often than not,

94
00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,920
Speaker 1: there would be a demo that sounded like a less

95
00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,440
Speaker 1: professional version of the final that we would bring to

96
00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,440
Speaker 1: the band, and then that would be the starting point

97
00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,039
Speaker 1: that we'd work. He's writing music and lyrics, everything, everything, everything.

98
00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,799
Speaker 1: Now the other members of the band contribute a tremendous amount,

99
00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,080
Speaker 1: but the initial framework was always set by Tom First.

100
00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,080
Speaker 1: On occasion, Mike Campbell would bring in a guitar, a

101
00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,719
Speaker 1: guitar idea first, or maybe even a guitar bassed song,

102
00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,080
Speaker 1: and then Tom would take that, rework it and make

103
00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,040
Speaker 1: it into a Tom Petty song. But probably one or

104
00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,480
Speaker 1: two an album. Maybe, is there anyone you've worked with

105
00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,360
Speaker 1: who is who compares to Petty and so terms of

106
00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,359
Speaker 1: how prolific they are, I don't know that he was

107
00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,080
Speaker 1: always so prolific. I think he would go through phases

108
00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:58,640
Speaker 1: because I remember there were a couple of years where

109
00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,680
Speaker 1: songs were not coming so quickly, and when we recorded

110
00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,000
Speaker 1: the fifty songs, they weren't all necessarily new songs. A

111
00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,920
Speaker 1: lot of them were songs they remember from growing up.

112
00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,920
Speaker 1: Some may have been old songs of theirs that they

113
00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,480
Speaker 1: never recorded. Some of them may have been Elvis songs

114
00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,960
Speaker 1: or just songs they like. How long were you in

115
00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,520
Speaker 1: the studio in that for the Wildflowers album, we were

116
00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,400
Speaker 1: in for around two years, but it wasn't every day.

117
00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:23,839
Speaker 1: It'd be like whenever there was stuff to do. So

118
00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,680
Speaker 1: he'd like, he'd have five songs and he's like, let's

119
00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:28,440
Speaker 1: record these five, and we'd go in and it would

120
00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,240
Speaker 1: be a couple of weeks of work or maybe a

121
00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,960
Speaker 1: month of work to get those five, and then he

122
00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,640
Speaker 1: would go back to writing, and then maybe two months

123
00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,800
Speaker 1: later there'd be another batch. It wouldn't do the same thing,

124
00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:39,920
Speaker 1: and then at the end we would take it all

125
00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,359
Speaker 1: and kind of do whatever it took to get him done.

126
00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,159
Speaker 1: So you get him in one of his fertile periods. Yes,

127
00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:52,000
Speaker 1: and I had very good fortune in that. The full

128
00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:53,800
Speaker 1: mun Fever album, the one that I loved, he made

129
00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,599
Speaker 1: with Jeff Lynn, who's from Electric Light Orchestra, who's a

130
00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:03,080
Speaker 1: really brilliant musician and songwriter. They did the Traveling Wheelberries together,

131
00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:10,000
Speaker 1: and Jeff Lynn really was a hard ass about the songs.

132
00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,880
Speaker 1: The songs had to be good and sort of pop

133
00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,080
Speaker 1: song power. So for several years before I got to

134
00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,360
Speaker 1: work with him, he'd been sort of whipped into the

135
00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,200
Speaker 1: song is the most important thing in the world shape.

136
00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,000
Speaker 1: And then our styles of production are very different, so

137
00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:33,160
Speaker 1: jeff is more methodical. Everything has to be in time

138
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,360
Speaker 1: and in tune. He won't record a drummer playing the drums.

139
00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,160
Speaker 1: He'll record a drummer playing one drum, so like for

140
00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,200
Speaker 1: the whole song, he'll just play the kick drum the

141
00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,120
Speaker 1: whole song. He'll just play the high hat the whole song.

142
00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:49,560
Speaker 1: He'll play the toms, so everything is very controlled and

143
00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:55,240
Speaker 1: meticulous and perfect. I try to make more, at least

144
00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,000
Speaker 1: in this case, it was more about the organic moment

145
00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,080
Speaker 1: where it felt it felt more live and more human

146
00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,480
Speaker 1: warts and all, not to make it sound I would

147
00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,760
Speaker 1: call it like hyper real. So it was. It sounded real,

148
00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:16,960
Speaker 1: but real on a particularly good night like not not randomly,

149
00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,840
Speaker 1: they're just playing it. It was a very good version,

150
00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:27,400
Speaker 1: that precision of jeff Lynn. Yeah, you can hear it

151
00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,800
Speaker 1: in Full Moon Fever. But you but you responded to

152
00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,560
Speaker 1: that you liked ful? Yeah, I loved it. I loved it.

153
00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,640
Speaker 1: I wouldn't make it in that way, but it's got

154
00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,840
Speaker 1: great power. When you go back and listen to full moviever,

155
00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,800
Speaker 1: can you detect the Jeff Lynn influence? Absolutely? What's the thing?

156
00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,040
Speaker 1: Can we play it? Can we play a song? Absolutely?

157
00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:52,680
Speaker 1: So there are a couple of Tom Petty songs that

158
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,360
Speaker 1: are anthems. Yes, they get played it like that gets

159
00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,720
Speaker 1: played in sports, and that's very it seems very counter

160
00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,120
Speaker 1: to the ethos. But now I understand why. The precision

161
00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,840
Speaker 1: of it is what gives it its its anthemic martial quality.

162
00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:09,559
Speaker 1: And of course it's going to be played at football

163
00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,319
Speaker 1: games when they are but I think I think the

164
00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:13,400
Speaker 1: leason they played at football games is also I won't

165
00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,880
Speaker 1: back down. I know, you know, I mean no, but

166
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,520
Speaker 1: it's that. But it's it's the lyric, but it's overlaid.

167
00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,920
Speaker 1: The song is is it's like a marching down the road.

168
00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,760
Speaker 1: Very it's disciplined and absolutely but it's at odds with

169
00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,719
Speaker 1: his image as a kind of hippie yeah, mellow, and

170
00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,679
Speaker 1: this is not his hippie window of music. And that's

171
00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:40,880
Speaker 1: another interesting thing about the times. It's like Tom was

172
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:45,200
Speaker 1: able to manage the changes of the styles of music

173
00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:50,600
Speaker 1: that happened, still sounding like Tom Petty, but being of

174
00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,240
Speaker 1: the moment as well. So like his earlier music, like

175
00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:55,920
Speaker 1: he came out first when it was kind of more

176
00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:57,840
Speaker 1: punk rocky and it had a little bit more of

177
00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,600
Speaker 1: a punk edge. And then that time in music, drum

178
00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:06,319
Speaker 1: machines were getting popular, so everything on the radio sounded

179
00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:11,680
Speaker 1: much more like that, even though rarely was it a

180
00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:16,120
Speaker 1: rock band, but it had that sort of formality. So

181
00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,800
Speaker 1: he was able to morph with health. Do you think

182
00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:21,760
Speaker 1: he was doing that consciously or is he just so

183
00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,720
Speaker 1: in tune with the kind of zeitgeist that he moved along.

184
00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,760
Speaker 1: I think it was a combination of combination of being

185
00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,320
Speaker 1: in tune and picking the right people to work with

186
00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,280
Speaker 1: at the right time for what was going on. And

187
00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:37,880
Speaker 1: I don't think he did that consciously. I think he

188
00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:39,680
Speaker 1: did it based on who he liked. I know. The

189
00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,160
Speaker 1: way he started working with Jeff was, from what I understand,

190
00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:44,760
Speaker 1: was just sort of a mistake. I think they saw

191
00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:46,920
Speaker 1: each other in cars driving down the stream, just like, hey,

192
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,160
Speaker 1: why don't we get together and do some really Yeah?

193
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,319
Speaker 1: I think so. So now play me something from Wildflowers

194
00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:55,720
Speaker 1: he did with him, the one that came out. Yeah, okay,

195
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,200
Speaker 1: so I can, and I want to understand the difference

196
00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,080
Speaker 1: between the Jeff Lynn and the feel Yes, just the

197
00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:06,200
Speaker 1: production stuff. Do you remember anything specific about about the

198
00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:10,080
Speaker 1: making of that song. Yeah, I remember I suggested that

199
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,559
Speaker 1: we try a song using that beat. The song was

200
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,560
Speaker 1: already written, but I said, let's try it with this beat.

201
00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,040
Speaker 1: And it was sort of inspired by the beat the

202
00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:26,160
Speaker 1: boom boom boom boom ca, which was inspired by Steve Miller. Oh,

203
00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,760
Speaker 1: Steve Miller. Yeah, Oh that's it makes the feels like,

204
00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:31,480
Speaker 1: why don't we do it kind of in a Steve

205
00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:36,640
Speaker 1: Miller kind of a rhythmic vibe. Was he very open

206
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,240
Speaker 1: to suggestion, absolutely more so than other artists. Not unusual,

207
00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,640
Speaker 1: I mean especially I will say it was the first

208
00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:48,560
Speaker 1: album we made together, and the nature of my experience

209
00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,240
Speaker 1: with him is the first time anybody works with him,

210
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,240
Speaker 1: he's on his best behavior. He's the most receptive and

211
00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,880
Speaker 1: willing to do the most work. And then maybe on

212
00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,560
Speaker 1: the fifth album we made together, he may not have

213
00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:07,600
Speaker 1: been as willing to go that extra distance. I think

214
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,280
Speaker 1: he liked to impress the people who but I feel

215
00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:11,880
Speaker 1: like he already did that, so he didn't need to

216
00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:18,720
Speaker 1: do that anymore. Did you which iteration did you prefer? Early? Early?

217
00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,320
Speaker 1: And I like what not, Not that he was trying

218
00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:23,400
Speaker 1: to please me, but that he was willing to do

219
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:24,760
Speaker 1: whatever it took for it to be as good as

220
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,760
Speaker 1: it could be. That's always the most fun. Do you

221
00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:32,760
Speaker 1: consider Wildflowers to be his kind of creative high watermark?

222
00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:38,280
Speaker 1: It's one of he's had. He's had probably probably three.

223
00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,360
Speaker 1: Damn the Torpedoes would have been the first one, and

224
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:46,640
Speaker 1: then the Jeff Lynn and then Wildflowers. I think those

225
00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:51,240
Speaker 1: are probably the three peak moments. We'll be back with

226
00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,560
Speaker 1: more on Tom Petty's Wildflowers with Rick Rubin after this break.

227
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,559
Speaker 1: We're back with more on Tom Petty's Wildflowers. Petty and

228
00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,520
Speaker 1: Rick Rubin recorded dozens of songs during the two year

229
00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,000
Speaker 1: sessions for Wildflowers, but only one disc ever came out.

230
00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,000
Speaker 1: There's still an entire disc out there that's never seen

231
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,640
Speaker 1: the light of day. Rick actually played it for me

232
00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,200
Speaker 1: in the most Rick way ever. He just called it

233
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,360
Speaker 1: up on his iPhone and it was amazing. But I'm

234
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,800
Speaker 1: afraid we can't share it with you. You'll just have

235
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,120
Speaker 1: to wait for its official release. So tell me how

236
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:32,920
Speaker 1: it came to be that you had these two records. Well,

237
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,640
Speaker 1: we recorded over this two year period. We recorded probably

238
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:43,360
Speaker 1: twenty sick between twenty six and twenty eight songs, and

239
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:45,480
Speaker 1: we didn't really know what was going to be on

240
00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,520
Speaker 1: the album. And then at the end of it, we thought, wow,

241
00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,079
Speaker 1: this is all good. Let's this is This could be

242
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,720
Speaker 1: a great double album, and we put it together as

243
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,120
Speaker 1: a double album and we brought it to the record company,

244
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,800
Speaker 1: and the record company suggested it be a single album,

245
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:00,760
Speaker 1: not because they didn't like the double album, but they

246
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:05,840
Speaker 1: just said, commercially in the marketplace, having a double album

247
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,400
Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily a great thing to do. And it was

248
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,760
Speaker 1: their first it was his first album with Warner Brothers.

249
00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,040
Speaker 1: They just wanted what was best. They really wanted what

250
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,680
Speaker 1: was best for Tom and surprise. You know, Tom historically

251
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:23,280
Speaker 1: was very anti anyone saying anything about anything. He's very

252
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,840
Speaker 1: He did things his way always. It would always fight

253
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,760
Speaker 1: the power of authority from any direction. He had a

254
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,040
Speaker 1: fight with MCA for years where they raised the price

255
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,400
Speaker 1: of music a dollar and he wouldn't put out a

256
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,000
Speaker 1: record unless they sold his at the old price, and

257
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,400
Speaker 1: they wouldn't put it out. And I think he went

258
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,960
Speaker 1: two years without putting out any music because he he

259
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,320
Speaker 1: wanted it the way he thought was what he thought

260
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 1: was right. And he kept his prices ticket prices, Lola,

261
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,800
Speaker 1: because he wanted people to be able to see the

262
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,680
Speaker 1: show a lot he had a lot of He cared

263
00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,200
Speaker 1: very much about his audience and and doing what he

264
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,080
Speaker 1: thought was right by them. I was a little surprised

265
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,440
Speaker 1: that he decided, but I guess he thought, well, this

266
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,480
Speaker 1: may be better for the audience, which is why he

267
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,280
Speaker 1: went along with it. I mean, how do you decide

268
00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,360
Speaker 1: if you have twenty four you come forward with twenty

269
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,240
Speaker 1: four songs or what have you, how do you decide

270
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,280
Speaker 1: which ones to drop and which ones to go forward with?

271
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,640
Speaker 1: Just experimentation. A lot of it was Tom's instinct and

272
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,560
Speaker 1: some of it was we'd play them in a sequence.

273
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:28,880
Speaker 1: We'd come up with a sequence. Each one of us

274
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:30,320
Speaker 1: might come up with a sequence that we like and

275
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,480
Speaker 1: then play it for each other and then say, okay,

276
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,720
Speaker 1: well this. You know, these three sound really good together,

277
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,240
Speaker 1: these five sound really good together. And then after hearing

278
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,560
Speaker 1: these you want this feeling. It doesn't really do that yet,

279
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,400
Speaker 1: what do we have that could make it feel like that?

280
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,720
Speaker 1: So kind of looking at the arc of the picture.

281
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,720
Speaker 1: So there might be like, let's say there are six

282
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,280
Speaker 1: songs that we'd say, no matter what, these six need

283
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:51,960
Speaker 1: to be on it, or these eight, whatever it is,

284
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,280
Speaker 1: and then the balance of it is more what makes

285
00:15:55,400 --> 00:16:00,360
Speaker 1: the journey. You wouldn't We wouldn't do that today, would we?

286
00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,080
Speaker 1: If we recorded twenty eight songs with an artist today,

287
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:04,840
Speaker 1: we would have the choice of either putting out all

288
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:06,800
Speaker 1: twenty eight without thinking about it. Because there's no such

289
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,200
Speaker 1: thing as a singular double album anymore. We might say

290
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,480
Speaker 1: in today's world, the nature of the speed of digestion,

291
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,800
Speaker 1: that people's attention span is there for maybe five or

292
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,360
Speaker 1: six songs at a time, So maybe it's better to

293
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:28,280
Speaker 1: break it up into four projects and put them out

294
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:34,720
Speaker 1: every form of five months, six months, depending on what happens.

295
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,400
Speaker 1: It didn't break you, did it break his heart or

296
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,720
Speaker 1: break your heart? About these songs that never got heard,

297
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 1: I remember feeling a little bad about I loved the album,

298
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,640
Speaker 1: so it wasn't like what we were putting out wasn't good.

299
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I thought what we put out was. I

300
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,840
Speaker 1: loved it. I absolutely loved it. This is the thing

301
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,360
Speaker 1: about musicians versus writers. I've never understood the amount of

302
00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,000
Speaker 1: the wastefulness of the musical process is just compared to writing.

303
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,560
Speaker 1: If I write a sentence, it will be printed somewhere.

304
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,760
Speaker 1: I don't weigh sentences like every single thing I've ever

305
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,000
Speaker 1: written has found the lad of day somewhere, Whereas you

306
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,800
Speaker 1: guys will leave things on the cutting room floors endless.

307
00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,320
Speaker 1: You have no idea. You have no idea that doesn't

308
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,840
Speaker 1: drive you. Your screenritter is the same way, where you

309
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:23,600
Speaker 1: know you can be a screenwriter of your whole career

310
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,560
Speaker 1: and nothing ever get made. So the end, there's all

311
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,320
Speaker 1: this stuff. I'm always fascinated by the relationship of the

312
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:34,680
Speaker 1: artist to this unknown It's private work. This lost Tom

313
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,280
Speaker 1: Petty album is private work. Basically, you and Tom Petty,

314
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,960
Speaker 1: who's not even with us anymore, and no one else

315
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,720
Speaker 1: does the guys in the band who all love it,

316
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:51,040
Speaker 1: who worked, who labored months over these songs that never

317
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,000
Speaker 1: got released to get them to where they are. Is

318
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,960
Speaker 1: there any of those unreleased songs in retrospect that you

319
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,600
Speaker 1: think we really blew it with this song? No, but

320
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,399
Speaker 1: they're great. I mean I feel like Wildflowers did exactly

321
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,240
Speaker 1: what it was supposed to do. People really love it,

322
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,960
Speaker 1: stood the test of time, and these other songs are

323
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,400
Speaker 1: When I heard them for the first time, Tom came

324
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,240
Speaker 1: over and played him for me, probably maybe two years ago,

325
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,040
Speaker 1: two two and a half years ago, and I was

326
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:21,959
Speaker 1: floored by I had like a vague memory of them,

327
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,000
Speaker 1: but some of them just hit me, like, Wow, what

328
00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,600
Speaker 1: a great song. How did we ever? How did we

329
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,240
Speaker 1: miss this? So he came by here too, Did you

330
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,520
Speaker 1: come here in my house or your house? Yeah? With

331
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,640
Speaker 1: the explicit intent to play the Yeah. He's like, I've

332
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,120
Speaker 1: been working on the rest of Wildflowers, and I've been

333
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,280
Speaker 1: fixing some stuff that wasn't done at the end, like

334
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,440
Speaker 1: a couple of mixes and things, and I want to

335
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,760
Speaker 1: play it for you. And he came and he played

336
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,240
Speaker 1: it for me. Did he want to re release it. Yes,

337
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,040
Speaker 1: he did. The issue was he very much wanted to

338
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,639
Speaker 1: re release it. He thought it was really important because

339
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,480
Speaker 1: the legacy of the Wildflowers album loomed large in his

340
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:02,080
Speaker 1: career and he knew that the second half of Wildflowers

341
00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:06,840
Speaker 1: was an important statement. His issue was he didn't want

342
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,840
Speaker 1: to put it out as a new Tom Petty album

343
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,480
Speaker 1: because it's not a new Tom Petty album. It was

344
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,240
Speaker 1: recorded twenty five years ago, and he didn't want to

345
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,200
Speaker 1: release it as an old catalog album because he didn't

346
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 1: he thought it deserved more than being a catalog album.

347
00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,400
Speaker 1: He felt like it was too good to just put

348
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,119
Speaker 1: out and was sort of looking for the right story

349
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 1: where it would have the exposure that it deserved, and

350
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,760
Speaker 1: he never came up with it. Why couldn't he is

351
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 1: a naive question, But why couldn't he just put it

352
00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:42,680
Speaker 1: as a new Tome Petty album. There's something about the

353
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:48,200
Speaker 1: artist's work that has a little bit of a diary

354
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:53,520
Speaker 1: like aspect. You know it. The work reflects a time

355
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 1: in someone's life, and you'll hear when if I were

356
00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,800
Speaker 1: to play you Tom's last album and then play you

357
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:06,359
Speaker 1: Wildflowers Too, or whatever it's called, it's it's very different.

358
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,280
Speaker 1: So I think that was his thing, was like I

359
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,840
Speaker 1: have changed as an artist since then. I love that.

360
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 1: I think I might have told you this. He told

361
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:21,400
Speaker 1: me wildflower scares him because he's not really sure why

362
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,159
Speaker 1: it's as good as it is. So it has this

363
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,160
Speaker 1: like haunted feeling for him. What does that mean? He's

364
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 1: not like he loves it, but it he It's not

365
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,080
Speaker 1: like he could turn that on again. He could. He

366
00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,679
Speaker 1: couldn't make wildflowers to today. That was the point. The

367
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 1: point was I can't do this now. This was then,

368
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 1: and it was where I was then, and it was

369
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 1: a prolific period. This is an extension of that moment.

370
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 1: Did he mean I can't make something as good as

371
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,400
Speaker 1: that again? Or just that just that just what that is,

372
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,800
Speaker 1: what that is, and that scared him? Those were his words.

373
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 1: I was surprised. I was surprised when he said it

374
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:09,440
Speaker 1: was he as artists go unusually introspective about his own work.

375
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,200
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say so, but how many artists would say,

376
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 1: would listen to something from twenty years ago, play something

377
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 1: from twenty years ago and say to you, it scares them.

378
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 1: I've never heard anything like that before. It was unusual.

379
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 1: But the closest thing I can remember, and it wasn't

380
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,200
Speaker 1: said to me. I just heard it in an interview

381
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 1: was Bob Dylan talking about his early records, saying I

382
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 1: didn't write those, like I don't know who wrote those.

383
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,439
Speaker 1: I couldn't write those. It was like that. It was

384
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 1: like something magic happened in that moment, And now looking

385
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 1: back on it, it's a little scary to me. We'll

386
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 1: be back with more broken record after this break. We're

387
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 1: back with more on Tom Petty's Wildflowers with Rick Rubin.

388
00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 1: Why did you guys not just Reese say I can

389
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 1: have two years later? I have no idea. I don't know. Again,

390
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 1: it goes to this waste you're so accustomed to, how

391
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 1: wasteful the process is. Yeah. The next thing he did

392
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 1: was a soundtrack album, and there were a couple of

393
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 1: songs on the soundtrack album that were from those sessions.

394
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 1: Oh is that the soundtrack? Where? Wait, that's really a

395
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 1: really interesting story. It's a yellow album. Somebody comes to

396
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 1: him and says, I want to use one of your

397
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,880
Speaker 1: songs from my movie. Yeah, it's a really small isn't

398
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 1: it an Ed Burns movie? Yeah, it's an Ed Burns

399
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 1: movie and he says she's the one. She's the one.

400
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,360
Speaker 1: He's like, I'll write a whole new album about it.

401
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 1: It's just kind of insane, active, creative bravado. Yeah, that's

402
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 1: where he was in that moment. Yeah, and I think

403
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,640
Speaker 1: a couple there are a couple of Wildflower songs that

404
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,439
Speaker 1: weren't on the original Wildflowers that ended up on that

405
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 1: hearing that is that? First of all, does that trigger

406
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 1: memories of when you guys were working on it? Not

407
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 1: on that, but it reminds me of the whole time. Yeah,

408
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,879
Speaker 1: I can't remember like being in the studio, but it

409
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: wasn't like, oh, we were recording that song. But I

410
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 1: can't remember the feeling of that time. So is so

411
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: what is tie that song to that period in Tom

412
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 1: Petty's career. Well, it has the leftover remnants of the

413
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 1: Jeff Lynn song influence, so it's very It really works

414
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 1: well lyrically and melodically strong like song power song. We

415
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: did that one very in a straightforward way, kind of

416
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: almost Jeff Lenny drum wise, very straight suited, and that

417
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: we probably played that a bunch of different ways before

418
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: we decided, oh we like it. This way probably played

419
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 1: it more like band style, and then it's like, oh,

420
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 1: this lends itself more to the kind of hypnotic locked

421
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: in sound. It's a more you know, down tempo, moody piece,

422
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: sort of the sarcastic time I hope you never fall

423
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: in love with somebody like you? Is a song like

424
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 1: that coming out of his personal experience? Is he? It

425
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: might it might be coming out of his personal experience,

426
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 1: or it might be the idea, like he might have

427
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: had that idea of like I hope you never fall

428
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 1: in love with somebody like you, and I should write

429
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: a song like that. I don't know. He would never

430
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: say yeah, Oh, he wasn't a He wasn't kind of

431
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 1: emotionally confessional in his no no. And I once saw

432
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: one time he was playing me demos and he would

433
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 1: always sit with the guitar in his lap and kind

434
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 1: of hunt around while while we were talking. And one

435
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: time he started playing me a song and he plays

436
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 1: this song and it's and sings it first verse, chorus,

437
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: sings the whole song and uh, and it's great. And

438
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 1: I say, wow, that's a great one where that one's

439
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 1: when's that one from? He's like, I just that's just now.

440
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: I said, you mean, I said, you didn't write that

441
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 1: before I got here, and he's like, no, that just

442
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: came out just now. And I said what's it about?

443
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 1: And he's like, I have no idea And it was

444
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: like ornate, intricate lyrics. He channeled it. Did you did

445
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 1: you tape it? And like, h so that became a

446
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 1: real song. Yeah, absolutely, It's probably a song on wild Flowers.

447
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: I can't remember which song it was, but I got

448
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: to see firsthand, and I remember the conversation of what's

449
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: it about? Because it was like the story seemed really intricate.

450
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, that's interesting, where's that? Like? No idea?

451
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: How much of that did you understand before you met him?

452
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: Did you understand like, oh, this guy is sort of

453
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: something special or was a lot of it revealed to

454
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: you when you started working with him more? When more?

455
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 1: When I worked with him, I knew he was really

456
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 1: I knew he really was a song craftsman, which which

457
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: he was, but I didn't realize the the connectedness that

458
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: he had beyond that. It's like there was an the

459
00:25:54,320 --> 00:26:00,399
Speaker 1: emotional quality beneath it was very strong. He didn't he

460
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: never struck me as an emotional person, but in the

461
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: work it was there. Yeah. How many albums did you

462
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: do with him? I think we did four or five

463
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: something like that. Yeah, but in your mind, the most successful,

464
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: the best of those was the first. It's my favorite. Yeah,

465
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 1: it seems the one that resonated the most with people.

466
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 1: And then there was a period after that where after

467
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: the divorce, he sort of fell into a dark period.

468
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: And there's some interesting thing that came out of that period,

469
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: but I don't think he was he was at his peak. Yeah,

470
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 1: why did you guys stop booking together? I never knew why,

471
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: but I was told something that he wrote, or something

472
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: that was written in the autobiography that was done on him.

473
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: It's not an autobiography, the biography that was done on him.

474
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: That whatever. The last project we worked on together. At

475
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:07,239
Speaker 1: the end of the project, while we were mixing, it

476
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: was time for me to start my next project, which

477
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: I think was a Red Hot Chili Peppers album, And

478
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: I started the next project, and I think he felt

479
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: like I abandoned him, which I don't think was the case.

480
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: I think we had already done what we were supposed

481
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 1: to do, But he never said that to me. I

482
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: didn't know anything about that. Yeah, yeah, but you guys

483
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: remained on good terms. Absolutely. Yeah. Do you think it's

484
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: a good thing for artists to move from producer to producer?

485
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 1: Can it? Can? It can be very productive, especially based

486
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: on the story I told you earlier of he wanted

487
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 1: to impress me in the beginning, So if there was

488
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: someone knew that he wanted to impress, he would work harder,

489
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: So that would be a good thing. Yeah, yeah, does.

490
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: Then again, George Martin did all the Beatles records and

491
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: they're really good. So it's like it's hard to say, like,

492
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: no one knows. Yeah, no one knows. No one knows.

493
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 1: That's a very rick way our first season, you know.

494
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 1: When we began with our first episode of Broken Record

495
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: earlier this fall, a massive wildfire was threatening both Rick's

496
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: home and his studio, the historic Shangolaw in Malibu. Many

497
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: of you have asked about what happened to Shangolow. The

498
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: answer is, miraculously it survived. The fire burned all around it,

499
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: but that bit of musical history escaped unscathed. Maybe that's

500
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: an omen for all of music in the coming year.

501
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 1: We'll be back in the spring with new conversations and

502
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: performances from some of our favorite artists Pentatonics, Questlove, Lawyer

503
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: McKenna in Nashville, Ezra Canning, E, Vampire Weekend, and many

504
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: many more. Who knows, we might just drop in a

505
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: surprise in the meantime. Thank you for listening. Broken Record

506
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: is produced by Justin Richmond and Jason Gambrell, with help

507
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: from Bruce Headlam, Mia Lobel, Jaquita, Pascal, Daisy Rosario, Jacob Smith,

508
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Jacob Weisberg, and of course el Hefe Rick Rubin.

509
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: To hear the songs featured in today's episode, check out

510
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: Broken Record podcast dot com. This show is brought to

511
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: you by Pushkin Industries. I'm maconglat them