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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio News.

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Speaker 2: Your Secretary of State Marco Rubio is refusing to attend

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Speaker 2: the G twenty summit in South Africa later this month

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Speaker 2: as a row over a new land law deepens. Over

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Speaker 2: the weekend, President Trump threatened to withdraw aid from the country.

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Speaker 2: He spoke to reporters before boarding Air Force One.

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Speaker 3: Terrible things are happening in South Africa.

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Speaker 1: The leadership is there are some terrible things, horrible things.

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Speaker 1: So that's under investigation right now.

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Speaker 4: We'll make a determination.

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Speaker 2: And South African ministers have hit back, threatening to withhold

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Speaker 2: vital minerals from the US. But is this an empty threat?

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Speaker 4: Well, minires in the continent, and therefore we have something

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Speaker 4: that we have well not just begars, but must us

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Speaker 4: use that endowment for our benefit.

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Speaker 2: As a President, Rama Posa used part of his State

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Speaker 2: of the Nation address on Thursday to intervene on the dispute.

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Speaker 1: We will not be deterred.

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Speaker 3: We are as South African's resilient people and we will

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Speaker 3: not be bullied.

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Speaker 2: On today's podcast, we'll look at how South Africa has

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Speaker 2: ended up on the US president's radar and how the

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Speaker 2: new administration's foreign policy could have repercussions across the continent.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer Zabastaja and this is the Next Africa Podcast,

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Speaker 2: bringing you one story each week from the continent, driving

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Speaker 2: the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg

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Speaker 2: can provide. We're going to be speaking to political commentator

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Speaker 2: Justice Malala in a bit, but first we have Bloomberg's

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Speaker 2: deputy Managing editor, Neil Munshi joining us. So, Neil, thanks

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Speaker 2: as always for coming back onto the podcast. President Trump

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Speaker 2: is now taking aim at an new South African expropriation law.

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Speaker 2: Get to the heart of this dispute. What exactly is

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Speaker 2: this row over?

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Speaker 1: It seems like a misinterpretation, let's say, of what the

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Speaker 1: log she is, which is South Africa past what is

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Speaker 1: essentially an eminent domain law, which countries all over the

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Speaker 1: world have where the government can take over unused land,

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Speaker 1: abandoned land, that kind of thing if it's not being

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Speaker 1: used and can be used by the government for something else. Right,

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Speaker 1: it happens all the time when countries want to lay

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Speaker 1: pipelines or build infrastructure, that kind of stuff. Now, the

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Speaker 1: context in South Africa is a little bit different because

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Speaker 1: one goal of the African National Congress, which is Nelson

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Speaker 1: Mandela's party that brought down apartheid is to redress the

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Speaker 1: inequalities born from the apartheid era, the vast racial wealth gap,

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Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. It seems like what Trump

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Speaker 1: is doing is conflating the two in a way, and

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Speaker 1: in his tweet about it, he objects to the South

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Speaker 1: African government treating quote, certain classes of people very badly.

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Speaker 1: Secretary of State Rubio also mentioned the seizure of land.

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Speaker 1: There is no seizure of land, but that seems to

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Speaker 1: feed into this long running conspiracy theory that the South

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Speaker 1: African government is seizing land from white.

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Speaker 2: Farmers, which brings me to one of Trump's closest advisors,

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Speaker 2: of course, Elon Musk, who is from South Africa Praetoria

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Speaker 2: Man as many people refer to him. Where does he

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Speaker 2: fit into this? Is he potentially the one whispering and

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Speaker 2: the president's ear about what's going on? I mean, what

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Speaker 2: have his commons been so?

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Speaker 1: Musk has for years now trafficked in this racist conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theory about the black majority South African government either seizing

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Speaker 1: land from white farmers or committee a so called white

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Speaker 1: genocide against white people in the country. None of this

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Speaker 1: stuff is happening, but he has repeatedly raise this specter

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Speaker 1: or on Twitter or x you know, commented on other

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Speaker 1: people's faux outrage about the South African government doing terrible

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Speaker 1: things to white people in the country. It all kind

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Speaker 1: of fits into the broader anti DEI kind of racial

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Speaker 1: grievance politics that Trump and Musk are bringing to the

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Speaker 1: US government right.

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Speaker 2: Now, what's that stake, Neil, if this bilateral relationships falls.

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Speaker 1: Apart, So the US is South Africa's top trading partner.

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Speaker 1: Most of that is minerals that go to private companies.

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Speaker 1: It'd be hard for the Trump administration to stop companies

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Speaker 1: from buying I don't know coal or diamonds or gold

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Speaker 1: or anything else. But I think what the last couple

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Speaker 1: weeks has taught the world is he never kind of

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Speaker 1: want to be in Trump's sites because he can make

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Speaker 1: things very uncomfortable for you as a government your country

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Speaker 1: without sort of any thought to the broader context. That

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Speaker 1: is going to be particularly tricky for South Africa, given

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Speaker 1: Elon Musk's relationship with Trump and his history with this

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theory, and the fact that they are the head

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Speaker 1: of the G twenty this year, They're hosting the presidency

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Speaker 1: in the summits. Already Rubio has said he won't come.

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Speaker 1: We don't know about Treasury Secretary Besent coming at the

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Speaker 1: end of February, and then of course in November is

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Speaker 1: the Leader's Summit, which Trump in the past has attended.

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Speaker 1: But given his focus on this kind of issue, non

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Speaker 1: issue that's also up in the air.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's turn out to Justice Malala and bring him

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Speaker 2: in political commentator and also a Bloomberg opinion columnist. Justice,

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Speaker 2: It's always great to get you on the show and

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Speaker 2: to speak with you. I wonder if you can give

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Speaker 2: us your take on how this row is playing out

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Speaker 2: and how it even reached President Trump's desk.

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Speaker 3: I have no doubt, Jen, that the way to President

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Speaker 3: Thump's ear has been through Elon Musk and a corhort

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Speaker 3: of others former South Africans who have become very close

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Speaker 3: to the make America Great Again cor hoort who are hugely,

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Speaker 3: hugely influential on him, who can whisper in his ear

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Speaker 3: and say this is a concern and it becomes his

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Speaker 3: concern without even stop to think it through. And you

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Speaker 3: can go back to Peter Till, who's a major donor

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Speaker 3: of the president the new trip Todzar David Taxis as

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Speaker 3: one of those and others. I'm not saying in this

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Speaker 3: case it was through those channels. The thing to realize

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Speaker 3: now and for South African policymakers is that it's going

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Speaker 3: to be a very tamp centric four years for South

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Speaker 3: Africa because they are in the sight lines of this administration.

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Speaker 3: Add to that people like the media, the journalist Taker Calson,

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Speaker 3: who has made this issue of land in South Africa

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Speaker 3: a bugbear of his and he talks about it again

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Speaker 3: and again. My view is that those people already are

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Speaker 3: looking at South Africa and are looking at it. Askance

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Speaker 3: if I have were to reference Marco Rubio. Mark Rubio

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Speaker 3: about in October last year, even before the election, was

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Speaker 3: already saying South Africa is making and I want to

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Speaker 3: quote a grave mistake by listening to China on the

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Speaker 3: Taiwan issue for example. You know, wrongly or rightly, this

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Speaker 3: is an administration that is looking very, very seriously at

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Speaker 3: South Africa and is looking at it punitively. So I

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Speaker 3: expect that this is not the last we've heard of

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump and others us on South Africa.

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Speaker 2: And of course it's not the best time for the country,

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Speaker 2: right you mentioned the G twenty. South Africa is set

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Speaker 2: to be the first African country to host a G

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Speaker 2: twenty later this year. This week when this post came

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Speaker 2: out from President Trump, there was a big mining conference

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Speaker 2: that was going on. It's the week of the State

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Speaker 2: of the Nation with this new government here in South Africa,

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Speaker 2: so not an opportune time. And also, you know, South Africa,

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Speaker 2: as you know we've talked about, has been caught in

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Speaker 2: the crosshairs for the case they brought against Israel, right,

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Speaker 2: and so how do you expect the South African authorities

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Speaker 2: and leaders to respond? Do you do you continue to

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Speaker 2: see this being I don't know, a tense dispute between

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Speaker 2: these two countries.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think it's going to be very tense. As

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Speaker 3: you rightly say that the focus of the world over

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Speaker 3: the next twelve months will be on South Africa. I

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Speaker 3: threw to November when the G twenty leaders ive in

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Speaker 3: jo Hannesburg. And so for South Africa, which has a

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Speaker 3: whole range of things. You talk about the new government

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Speaker 3: of National Unity. You know, when several rama Pasa and

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Speaker 3: his team went divorce last month, people were all over them, saying,

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Speaker 3: you guys have done an amazing thing. You've managed to

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Speaker 3: pull together and see the opposition eight smaller parties into

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Speaker 3: a ten party coalition. People worry about the stability of

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Speaker 3: that coalition. And so you've got a jitary market already

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Speaker 3: around South Africa. And then you add to this an

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Speaker 3: unprovoked attack from the most powerful politician in the world.

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Speaker 3: It becomes a huge issue for South Africa. How should

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Speaker 3: South Africa respond? How is it responding? The context is

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Speaker 3: that you have this loud voice, I'm pulling South Africa

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Speaker 3: from funding from South Africa, But actually, how much is it?

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Speaker 3: How big is it? And when you look at the numbers,

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Speaker 3: they're not They're not that scary or that bay. You know,

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Speaker 3: South Africa is feeling what a huge chunk of the

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Speaker 3: world Mexico, Canada, China to a less extent, is feeling.

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Speaker 3: And that's the time effect of being shouted at and

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Speaker 3: then saying, Okay, where's the meat, but the meat is

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Speaker 3: I don't know where the meat is. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: all it's all very thin soup.

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Speaker 2: Stick with me justice. When we come back, we'll talk

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Speaker 2: about what might happen next and how African leaders should

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Speaker 2: deal with the new Trump administration. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back. We're looking at what's behind President Trump's latest

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Speaker 2: route with South Africa. We have political commentator Justice Malala

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Speaker 2: with us. So Justice, you're walking us through the scenario

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Speaker 2: in which South Africa has now found itself in. Given

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Speaker 2: where things are at, now, what is President Ramaposa to do?

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Speaker 2: And I mean, is it better to sort of sit

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Speaker 2: on the sidelines and wait for this to play out?

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Speaker 2: Is it better to respond? And I wonder how then

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Speaker 2: other African countries should gain it.

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Speaker 3: I think a lot of us jhen who look at

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Speaker 3: these things have always said Africa needs to shape its

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Speaker 3: own our gender. It needs to say this is what

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Speaker 3: we need, this is what we've got, what do we

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Speaker 3: have at the negotiating table. I don't think this attack

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Speaker 3: on South Africa by Donald Trump and members of his

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Speaker 3: administration is any different to the way South Africa should

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Speaker 3: be acting and responding to threats or overtures from China,

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Speaker 3: from Russia, from the UAE, taking other players on the continent,

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Speaker 3: other jurisdictions which want to participate and play on the continent.

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Speaker 3: I think Siril Ramaposa in a South Africa specific sense

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Speaker 3: has done the right thing. He's gone out of his way.

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Speaker 3: He said, this is how much we're getting. This is

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Speaker 3: what we're doing. Is called Elon Musk and said, let's

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Speaker 3: have a conversation about misinformation and disinformation on your platform

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Speaker 3: by yourself, because Elon Musk has made these claims himself.

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Speaker 3: And so I think that's the first step. But the

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Speaker 3: key thing here is what the minerals Minister in South

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Speaker 3: Africa has responded with saying, well, you know, we are

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Speaker 3: endowed with mineral wealth. The United States and others need us,

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Speaker 3: and so we will consider how we respond in that manner.

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Speaker 3: I don't think that that's the card that Serah Ramapasa

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Speaker 3: himself is playing. If you take South African experts to

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Speaker 3: the United States, if you take manganese, South Africa is

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Speaker 3: home to seventy percent of the world's manganese. So this

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Speaker 3: is a country that that has a lot to give,

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Speaker 3: a lot to trade with the United States. Does the

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Speaker 3: United States, on the basis of this, of this crisis

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Speaker 3: that it has manufactured itself, want to get into this

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Speaker 3: sort of thing with South Africa. I think not. So

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Speaker 3: one might say, you know, and you and I have

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Speaker 3: looked at followed Minister Mantashe of South Africa. He's a

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Speaker 3: very flamboyant, very voluble individual, and he say, oh, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's just noise that he's making, but he's onto something.

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Speaker 3: And I think many Africans are saying, well, what are

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Speaker 3: we dealing with here? Why are we continuing to act

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Speaker 3: as if we are begging?

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Speaker 2: And you can read all of our coverage across Bloomberg platforms.

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Speaker 2: Now here's some other stories we've been following across the region.

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Speaker 2: This week, leaders from the East and Southern African communities

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Speaker 2: will discuss how to respond to the growing humanitarian crisis

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Speaker 2: in Congo as they meet in Tanzania this weekend. The

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Speaker 2: United Nations and its partners have retrieved at least two

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Speaker 2: thousand bodies from the streets of the trading hub of Goma,

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Speaker 2: which is now under the control of Rwanda backed M

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Speaker 2: twenty three rebels, and a satellite communication system used by

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Speaker 2: the US and UK to run military operations is central

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Speaker 2: to efforts by Britain to resolve the sovereignty of the

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Speaker 2: Chegos Islands. UK security officials familiar with the matter said

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Speaker 2: now the revelation highlights the stakes for UK Prime Minister

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Speaker 2: Keir Starmer as he attempts to secure a controversial deal

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Speaker 2: with Mauritius to resolve the sovereignty claims over the Indian

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Speaker 2: Ocean archipelago, which has been controlled by Britain for more

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Speaker 2: than two centuries. And you can follow these stories across Bloomberg,

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Speaker 2: including the Next African Newsletter. Will put a link to

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Speaker 2: that in the show notes. This program was produced by

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Speaker 2: Adrian Bradley. Don't forget to follow and review this show

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Speaker 2: wherever you usually get your podcasts. I'm Jennifer Zabasogia. Thanks

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Speaker 2: as always for listening. We'll see you next time.