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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.

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Speaker 1: Time for a vault episode. This episode originally published on

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Speaker 1: October thirty one, Halloween Day, twenty nineteen, and it's our

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Speaker 1: Anthology of Horror Volume three. That's right, horror themed TV

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Speaker 1: anthology episodes that are used as a springboard to discuss

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Speaker 1: science and historically, you know, stuff to blow your mind topics.

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Speaker 1: This one is fun in that one of the anthology

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Speaker 1: episodes we discuss is a Simpsons tree House of Horror episode.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, if you enjoy the moments where we frequently

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Speaker 1: referenced Simpsons episodes, well then this is the main event

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Speaker 1: because we're going to spend a lot of time talking

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Speaker 1: about the Simpsons. Here. Let us be your hang in Kodos.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio's House to Work. Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Gooley Lamb.

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Speaker 1: I forgot we were doing the voices. Let's see, I

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Speaker 1: am what's my name? Also, I'm Corrosive Joseph McCormick exactly,

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Speaker 1: and we're here with our excellent audio producer death Nicholas Johnson.

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Speaker 1: It is Halloween. It is Halloween itself, I believe. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so we are presenting Anthology of Horror volume three.

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Speaker 1: So this will be a sequel to our two previous

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Speaker 1: Anthology of Horror episodes where we look at old episodes

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Speaker 1: of horror anthology TV shows and figure out how they

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Speaker 1: might often be deeper than they seem. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: and also sometimes they're not very deep, but we we

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Speaker 1: have a knack for finding some hidden depth in horror

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Speaker 1: and science fiction. Now. In the last episode, which should

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Speaker 1: have been just a couple of days ago, we talked

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Speaker 1: about an episode of The Twilight Zone concerning how you

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Speaker 1: can know whether or not you are in a dream

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Speaker 1: or whether you are someone else's dream. And we talked

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Speaker 1: about an episode of the old horror anthology Monsters that

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Speaker 1: featured story about ghoules called down Below and related to

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Speaker 1: that to cities dealing with rat problems. Uh So, today

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Speaker 1: I think we were going to start by looking at

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Speaker 1: an episode of The Outer Limits, right, yes, the Sixth Finger.

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Speaker 1: This is the fifth episode of the first season of

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Speaker 1: ABC sci fi anthology series legendary sci fi anthology series

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Speaker 1: The Outer Limits, which originally ran from through It was

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Speaker 1: created by Leslie Stevens, and unlike a lot of these shows,

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Speaker 1: he didn't have a true horror or sci fi host.

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Speaker 1: It didn't have like a puppet or an actor that

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Speaker 1: spoke to you and introduced everything. But it did have

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Speaker 1: the control voice, which in and of itself is pretty classic.

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Speaker 1: Explain the control voice. So we will control the vertical,

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Speaker 1: we will control the horizontal. You know, it's like this,

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Speaker 1: this disembodied voice that is taking over your television set

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Speaker 1: and presenting you with some sort of cosmic transmission from

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Speaker 1: the out or Limits. I see, Is this the one

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Speaker 1: that's there's no need to adjust your television exactly? Okay,

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Speaker 1: I think I for some reason confused that I thought

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Speaker 1: that was like an alternate opening to the Twilight Zone.

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Speaker 1: Uh no, no, no, that Twilight Zone is always like

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Speaker 1: Rod Serling being like you were entering another dimension. Yeah, etcetera. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Outer Limits was definitely more in the in the

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Speaker 1: science fiction domain. It was in many ways kind of

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Speaker 1: like the sci fi side of the coin to the

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Speaker 1: Twilight Zones horror, but it also got a little spooky,

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Speaker 1: a little scary at times. Uh and certainly falls under

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Speaker 1: the domain of our our mission statement here. Now wait

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Speaker 1: a second, sorry, I just realized that the Outer Limits

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Speaker 1: introduction you're doing here, that this might be the first

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Speaker 1: sort of hint or attempt at doing a kind of

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Speaker 1: found footage thing. Right. It's saying like you are receiving

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Speaker 1: a transmission. It's like implying that you're part of the

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Speaker 1: narrative because your TV set is something's being beamed from

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Speaker 1: another place to it. Yeah, to a limited extent. I mean,

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Speaker 1: once the episode starts, it's pretty leer. You're still safely

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Speaker 1: in television land, but you're also in a place that

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Speaker 1: still feels a little less safe. But this ain't I

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Speaker 1: love Lucy exactly. So The Outer Limits went two seasons

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Speaker 1: and produced forty nine episodes. Again, it's just always amazing

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Speaker 1: just how robust these some of these older seasons television were.

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Speaker 1: Not all of the episodes are classics, but some stand

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Speaker 1: out amid the all time greatest achievements in science fiction

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Speaker 1: television even today in this sort of golden age of

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Speaker 1: television and television options. Some of the most famous episodes

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Speaker 1: include uh for instance, Demon with a Glass Hand, which

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Speaker 1: was scripted by Harlan Ellison, but the Sixth Finger is

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Speaker 1: also rather iconic. Like a lot of the episodes, it

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Speaker 1: features some alien makeup effects that that are pretty astounding.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the alien designs on the Outer Limits,

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Speaker 1: uh kind of you know, leaned into old school ideas

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Speaker 1: of what an extraterrestrial might look like. You know. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of oversized heads and long ears and whatnot,

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Speaker 1: like the rain mutant from the Silent Earth. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so some of them are a little bit dated, but

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Speaker 1: but they were still pulled off exceptionally well, shot in

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Speaker 1: black and white, and and and you know, sometimes with

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Speaker 1: an almost avant garde kind of style. That being said,

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Speaker 1: there are some effects that they pulled off on that

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Speaker 1: show that stand up I think really well today. The

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Speaker 1: Galaxy being I think, is an exception where we had

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Speaker 1: like this kind of sharp contrast of black and white

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Speaker 1: where it seems to be just radiating on the screen.

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Speaker 1: But the Sixth Finger was directed by James Goldstone, who

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Speaker 1: also directed the pilot for a little show called Star Trek. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so that's before Kirk is the captain, right right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it was written by Ellis st. Joseph, who did

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Speaker 1: a lot of TV work in his career and It

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Speaker 1: also starred British American actor David McCallum, who starred opposite

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Speaker 1: Robert Vaughan in The Man from Uncle. So McCollum stars

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Speaker 1: in this episode as the character Griffiths, a Welsh miner

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Speaker 1: who agrees to let a rogue scientist named Professor Mathers

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Speaker 1: experiment on him, which is of course always a solid

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Speaker 1: life choice. Mathers played a role, we're told, in the

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Speaker 1: development of atomic weaponry, and he wants to aid humanity instead,

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Speaker 1: and so he has invented of means of speeding up

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Speaker 1: evolutionary development and he wants to try it out on

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Speaker 1: a human being. Now, I can say, in the early

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixties this would actually be not that far fesched

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Speaker 1: of a scenario. I mean, I think there were a

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Speaker 1: number of scientists who were known at the time to

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Speaker 1: have worked on the creation of atomic weaponry who were

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Speaker 1: deeply publicly regretful of their work. Even Oh yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I mean to typified for the most part by the

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Speaker 1: the heavily quoted bit from from Oppenheimer Now and become Death,

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Speaker 1: where he himself is of course to quoting Vedic scriptures. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because certainly the atomic bomb is this uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: continues to to loom over us as this the symbol

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Speaker 1: of of of of great human achievements that are put

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Speaker 1: to work in in the name of our worst impulses

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Speaker 1: as as a species, as a civilization. Totally and uh

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Speaker 1: and yes, So the idea of someone involved with that

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Speaker 1: wanting to do something that that you know, that it

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Speaker 1: saves us, that changes us, that you know, that puts

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Speaker 1: us in a different direction, I think that that makes

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Speaker 1: perfect sense. And I think a lot of people would

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Speaker 1: would agree that. You know, this, this period of of

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Speaker 1: of nuclear power, you know, is something we hope it's

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a bottleneck, right, It's like it's a

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Speaker 1: period of extreme danger to the species that we hope

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Speaker 1: to move past, we hope to evolve through. And and certainly,

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Speaker 1: you know, we tend to think of that evolution as

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Speaker 1: more or less biological and more cultural, more political. But

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Speaker 1: in a science fiction story, you know, it makes sense

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Speaker 1: to go with the more literal interpretation of that, like

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Speaker 1: human beings need to evolve beyond this point of extreme danger.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to put a human being inside of

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Speaker 1: a crazy sci fi contraption and see what kind of

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Speaker 1: you know, peaceful being comes out the other side, right

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Speaker 1: as you increase our oldie to destroy ourselves in one another.

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Speaker 1: It seems like every year that goes by, we're just

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Speaker 1: sort of like barely eking. You know, we're just making

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Speaker 1: it if we don't use that power unless you change

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Speaker 1: us somehow, that it would be inconceivable to us to

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Speaker 1: use it right now. To be clear, evolution, as we've

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Speaker 1: discussed plenty of times on the show, is a process

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Speaker 1: of mutation and natural selection that takes place across the

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Speaker 1: vast periods of time due to various environmental stressors. Would

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Speaker 1: you agree with that? You're more Darwin's bulldog on this

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Speaker 1: show than I am. I mean, our modern picture of

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Speaker 1: evolution I think has become a little bit more nuanced,

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Speaker 1: and that we we learn more and more things that

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Speaker 1: uh that affect it, like epigenetic factors possibly and things

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Speaker 1: like that. But yeah, basically, I mean the standard model

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Speaker 1: is that there is variation and then there is selection

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Speaker 1: by the environment. And yeah, the big thing, of course,

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Speaker 1: the way this happens in nature is it happens over

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Speaker 1: many generations. The way evolution is often conceived of in

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Speaker 1: stories like this is it basically just means like changing

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Speaker 1: somebody like changing an individual's body in their lifetime, which

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Speaker 1: would be different from biological evolution. That would be more

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Speaker 1: like that, I don't know, bioengineering of the body. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and also I mean the other thing too, is

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Speaker 1: this this model in this science fiction story it has

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Speaker 1: this It kind of implies that there's an exact map

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Speaker 1: of our evolution inside of our bodies, inside of our genes.

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Speaker 1: You know, is if like we're a Pokemon and you

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Speaker 1: can look at a chart saying like how it advances

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Speaker 1: to its final form, if I have my Pokemon references correct,

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Speaker 1: I don't know my Pokemon all that well. But but

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Speaker 1: still yet it implies that there's like a certain path

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Speaker 1: that an organism should take and it's all written in

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Speaker 1: the genes, as opposed to being this process, uh you know,

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Speaker 1: being you know, driven by this process of natural selection

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Speaker 1: that depends so heavily upon environment. So on one hand,

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Speaker 1: it's a tad silly to think that some manner of

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Speaker 1: mad science process could simply speed up human evolution. But

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Speaker 1: again they're trying to make a statement here, so we'll

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Speaker 1: roll with it, okay, So as Griffith evolves and there

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Speaker 1: there this is a this is a real talking. By

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Speaker 1: the way, as far as um you know, anthology shows

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Speaker 1: Go and Outer Limits tended to be I think a

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Speaker 1: little more cerebral than the many of the other anthology

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Speaker 1: and you know shows that would come in its wake.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of discussing what this means and discussing, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, how we might apply it to our understanding

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Speaker 1: of the world. And so Griffith's you know, he goes

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Speaker 1: through these prod like a I guess a treatment of evolution.

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Speaker 1: Then he comes back out and he's changed, and he

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Speaker 1: talks about it, and he goes back in, he gets

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Speaker 1: another treatment, he comes back he's even different. But basically

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Speaker 1: these are the changes biological and mental that take place. Okay,

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Speaker 1: First of all, he gets an extremely over developed cortex

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Speaker 1: like a giant alien melon head, which again is very

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Speaker 1: impressive makeup effects, but at the same time it's kind

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Speaker 1: of a dated look for our idea of like a

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Speaker 1: far future speaking. Okay, so just to clarify, basically is

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Speaker 1: the idea that this is naturally how humans would evolve

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Speaker 1: if we were allowed to just you know, keep living

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Speaker 1: for thousands of years. But the scientist has figured out

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Speaker 1: a way to get us there. Down the already mapped

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Speaker 1: path ahead of time, right. I think that's what the

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Speaker 1: model is here. We just have to sort of, you know,

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Speaker 1: take their word for it on the sci fi process

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Speaker 1: that's getting it to us. Sure, so huge yet great Now,

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Speaker 1: as the title implies, one of the other major changes

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Speaker 1: is that there is a sixth finger on each hand,

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Speaker 1: so a total of twelve digits on the hands. Now

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Speaker 1: better to press nuclear launch buttons with yeah. In addition,

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Speaker 1: long l fears, which you know isn't I don't really

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Speaker 1: have a good discussion lined up for that, but there

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Speaker 1: are L fears uh, mental powers such as telekinesis, vastly

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Speaker 1: enhanced intelligence and ultimately enhanced empathy and understanding, and in

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Speaker 1: the original script, he also eventually develops a means of

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Speaker 1: photosynthitus and lives on pure light and kind of transcends

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Speaker 1: into a being of light. In the show, however, he

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Speaker 1: attempts to push himself even further in evolution, but his

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Speaker 1: wife betrays him out of love and turns him back

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Speaker 1: into his original self, you know, turns back the dial

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Speaker 1: on the evolution machine to try and get the you know,

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Speaker 1: the man that she loves back in the room. But

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Speaker 1: the process ends up killing him. It's just too much

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Speaker 1: for him. So it all makes for a great mad

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Speaker 1: science tale and one that I think works well thematically.

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Speaker 1: Plus McCallum has that kind of like old school Leslie

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Speaker 1: Howard Delivery, you know which show, which I really love,

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Speaker 1: because if you're watching a show like The Outer Limits

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Speaker 1: of the Twilight Zone, you do have to you find

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Speaker 1: a reason to love some of the more you know,

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Speaker 1: by today's standards antiquated uh aspects of say acting or

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Speaker 1: pacing or even the effects. And Joe, I have a

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Speaker 1: picture of of the the being here for you, and

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Speaker 1: it certainly anybody wants to see this. Just look up

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Speaker 1: The Outer Limits the sixth Finger. You can also find

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Speaker 1: it on like Hulu or Netflix, naming pretty much everywhere.

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Speaker 1: But you can also find lots of images of this.

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Speaker 1: It's very iconic cost him. Okay, so first of all,

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Speaker 1: I see the giant melon head and that look that

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Speaker 1: looks great because you fit so much brain in there.

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Speaker 1: I am immediately imagining some problems having to do with birth,

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Speaker 1: like the size of the human birth canal, which you

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Speaker 1: would have to assume it would also evolve to be

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Speaker 1: much bigger to allow a birth of that kind of creature,

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Speaker 1: though I believe it's it's widely thought that we're already

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Speaker 1: pretty much as sort of the limits of what our

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Speaker 1: bodies will allow in terms of cranial size, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: And the other thing that comes to mind is our

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Speaker 1: discussions in our episode on brain soup and liquefied brains. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the actual size of the brain would not be as

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Speaker 1: important as the number of neurons within it, right, So,

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Speaker 1: I think by our modern understanding, it was kind of

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Speaker 1: it was very much in vogue at the time to

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Speaker 1: to see, like, you know, outside craniums as being a

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Speaker 1: sign of super intelligence and your fictional creatures. But I

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Speaker 1: think nowadays we realize that would not be necessary. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, like I are you mentioned this island Earth.

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Speaker 1: It shows up in a lot of sci fi from

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Speaker 1: the mid century that you've got aliens with huge old heads.

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Speaker 1: I guess because they're very smart. But also I like

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Speaker 1: how he's got extremely defined facial bone structure, like this

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Speaker 1: guy has cheekbones to die for? He does, yes. And

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Speaker 1: then of course there are the lf ears, which, again

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Speaker 1: we don't really have anything to say about them. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure what point of ears would really accomplish evolutionarily.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, this seems like something that has to have

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Speaker 1: been explored in a kind of speculative paper, like somebody

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Speaker 1: who's an expert on the morphology of the ears and

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Speaker 1: how they help you here, How would you hear differently

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Speaker 1: if you had l f ears. I don't know, we

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Speaker 1: should come I bet we should come back to that,

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Speaker 1: because there is a good answer for it. Uh. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's a whole world of of elve and ear structure

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Speaker 1: that we could discuss in the future. But what I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about is that extra finger. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back,

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Speaker 1: we will get into the the five digit rule invertebrate

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Speaker 1: evolution and we'll discuss the possibility of a sixth finger

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Speaker 1: coming into play. All right, we're back. So we've been

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Speaker 1: talking about the classic Outer Limits episode The sixth Finger,

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Speaker 1: about a man who speeds up his own evolution within

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Speaker 1: his own lifetime and he gets a gigantic melon head,

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Speaker 1: he gets really defined facial bones, beautiful cheekbones, he gets

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Speaker 1: elf ears, but he also grows a sixth finger. And

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Speaker 1: so Robert, you looked into what it would mean to

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Speaker 1: grow a six finger is that kind of thing possible?

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Speaker 1: Why or why would not we Why wouldn't we see

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Speaker 1: that in human evolution or primate evolution. Yeah, it's really

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Speaker 1: it's really fascinating because, first of all, the five digit

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Speaker 1: rule does run pretty deep invertebrate evolution. According to Michael Coates,

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Speaker 1: Associate professor in the Department of Organismal Biology and Anatomy

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Speaker 1: at the University of Chicago and co editor of Evolution

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Speaker 1: and Development, writing for Scientific American, the condition of having

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Speaker 1: no more than five fingers and toes probably goes back

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Speaker 1: before the evolutionary divergence of amphibians and amniots, birds, mammals, reptiles.

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Speaker 1: We were talking three hundred and forty million years ago.

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Speaker 1: Go back three hundred sixty million years ago, and there's

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Speaker 1: evidence of tetrapods with six, seven, eight digits. Uh. The

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Speaker 1: the decrease to five or fewer came about alongside the

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Speaker 1: development of sophisticated wrist and ankle joints. So basically, the

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Speaker 1: creatures with more digits had simpler skeletons and simpler limb mobility,

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Speaker 1: and they were generally, you know, something along the line

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Speaker 1: of flippers. Because we're talking about creatures of the water here.

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Speaker 1: But as these limbs evolved to allow certain organisms to

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Speaker 1: stand or to push off with those limbs essentially, you know,

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Speaker 1: as they move towards being land creatures, we see the

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Speaker 1: reduction of digits, and indeed we tend to see, you know,

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Speaker 1: the further reduction of digits because the rule of evolutionary

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Speaker 1: thumb here is that it's easier to lose something than

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Speaker 1: it is to gain something. Absolutely. I mean you can

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Speaker 1: see that with many tetrapod mammals to for example, look

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Speaker 1: at a dog's paw. I mean, they have a sort

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Speaker 1: of vestigial other thumb type thing up there on the

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Speaker 1: on the leg, but basically they got four toes that

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Speaker 1: go go down on the ground. It's the what the

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Speaker 1: do claw? Yeah, yeah, up there? Or I mean even

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Speaker 1: look at the feet of ungulates. Yeah, I mean, horses

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Speaker 1: are a great place to look because we see how

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Speaker 1: far it's reduced now. But you know, various prehistoric horses

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Speaker 1: had three or four toes. And when animals actually do

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Speaker 1: gain digits well, uh Coats points out that the lack

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Speaker 1: of true six toed or six fingered creatures in today's

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Speaker 1: fauna quote highlights some sort of constraint. For instance, one

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Speaker 1: of the rare cases we see of you know, the

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Speaker 1: creature gaining digits is the marine reptile uh Ethosaurus. This

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Speaker 1: is the these sixty years ago. We've talked abou about

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Speaker 1: them on the show before. They essentially are dolphin like creatures.

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Speaker 1: They have that same sort of shape, but they they

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Speaker 1: are reptiles um and as a result alt to returning

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Speaker 1: to the sea, they eventually developed paddles that sometimes had

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Speaker 1: you know, quite a number of digits in there. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so the athosaurs, like the marine mammals of today, in

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Speaker 1: their evolutionary history, went to land and then went back

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Speaker 1: to water, right, Yeah, So, which again lines up nicely

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Speaker 1: with this idea of of as long as you're a

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Speaker 1: sea creature, you can have multiple digits within that paddle.

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Speaker 1: But when you start using that paddle increasingly again over

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Speaker 1: you know, generation after generation after generation, if it's used

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Speaker 1: to push off, if it's new, used even to hold

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Speaker 1: up your weight, it becomes increasingly um more beneficial to

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Speaker 1: have fewer digits in that at the end of that limb. However,

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Speaker 1: we do see creatures like the mole and the panda,

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Speaker 1: both of which benefit from remodeled wrist bones that essentially

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Speaker 1: serve as a six finger, but which are not true fingers.

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Speaker 1: And if you haven't seen a picture of this, I

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Speaker 1: encourage everyone to look up pictures of panda's paw or

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Speaker 1: the laws of a mole, and you will. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you start doing some counting, you'll be like, okay,

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Speaker 1: one too, three, four, five, and oh kind of six

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Speaker 1: again not a true thumb. But for the panda, for instance,

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Speaker 1: it serves as a thumb. It has like the roll

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Speaker 1: of a thumb in helping them handle food. The panda,

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Speaker 1: of course, is the herbivore of the bare world, and

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Speaker 1: and the and it has to eat constantly, and therefore

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Speaker 1: it has eventually used the point where it needs a

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Speaker 1: little extra thumblike appendage to get the job done. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: for moles, uh, this extra little thumblike appendage it helps

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Speaker 1: them tunnel through the earth, so being almost more like

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Speaker 1: a flipper, Yeah, help it swim through the earth. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: These are, in Coats's words quote, rather baroque solutions to

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Speaker 1: the apparently straightforward task of growing an extra finger. So

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Speaker 1: you know, if we're going to think back to our

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Speaker 1: outer limits example here, it would be far more likely

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Speaker 1: that one would grow some sort of you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: a paddle of a pseudo finger as opposed to growing

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Speaker 1: a full finger. No matter how many keyboards you're having

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Speaker 1: to use, no matter you know, how many you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, mad science gadgets you're having to manipulate with

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Speaker 1: your far future digits. But I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: another even more amazing example from real world biology. And

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Speaker 1: for this we have to turn to the world of

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Speaker 1: the Lemur, as recently reported in Smithsonian. The I I

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Speaker 1: Lemur known for its weird looks and it's elongated middle

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Speaker 1: finger which it uses to fish grubs out of trees.

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Speaker 1: You may have seen this in various documentaries before. It

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Speaker 1: looks like a tree goblin and it's I think it

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Speaker 1: has unfortunately suffered from like superstitious killings in the past,

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Speaker 1: but it has this it's nocturnal, and it has this

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Speaker 1: fabulous super elongated in some people's eyes, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's creepy middle finger which it uses you have to

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Speaker 1: fish out a grub and uh and then it's it's

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Speaker 1: you know, it's this highly specialized digit and once it

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Speaker 1: gets the about I was reading that it will also

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Speaker 1: like pluck the top of the grub. Off and like

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Speaker 1: suck the inside of the grub out, like it is

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Speaker 1: just a highly evolved grub the eater. But in addition

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Speaker 1: to this, it also boasts an extra tiny thumb or

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Speaker 1: pseudo thumb, complete with a fingerprint. This according to Adam

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Speaker 1: Hearstone Rose, Associate Professor of Biological Sciences at North Carolina

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Speaker 1: State University, It's a pseudo thumb made of bone and cartilage,

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Speaker 1: but it can be moved in three directions, much like

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Speaker 1: a human thumb. Now you might wonder, why, why why

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Speaker 1: is this creature so greedy for crazy digits? It already

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Speaker 1: has this super elongated specialized digit. What does it need

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Speaker 1: an extra digit for? You know what? I realized The

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Speaker 1: II hand reminds me of I just looked it up

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Speaker 1: to see it again. It reminds me of the of

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Speaker 1: klaus Kinsky's hands in Werner Hertzog's nose fur Aw too,

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Speaker 1: He's got the long nails and the creepy fingers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it does. It does seem like a true creature of

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Speaker 1: the night, doesn't it. But basically it seems to have

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Speaker 1: developed this this additional pseudo thumb because the other fingers

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Speaker 1: are elongated and specialized like Essentially it's lost that middle

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Speaker 1: fingers specialized usage, and so it has had to develop

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Speaker 1: a pseudo thumb to make up for that special specialization.

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Speaker 1: And to be clear, you'll you'll sometimes find a six

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Speaker 1: finger occurring on a human as a as a birth defect.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, since we're celebrating Halloween, it's worth noting

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Speaker 1: that Hannibal Lecter in the books um has an extra

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Speaker 1: digit on his left hand like that that occurs, but

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Speaker 1: it is not, you know, it's not a naturally you know,

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Speaker 1: evolved feature. So you're probably wondering where does this leave

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Speaker 1: our six fingered man in the outer limits. So Griffith

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Speaker 1: kind of essentially dodges the question when at one point

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Speaker 1: of scientists actually asked him about the six finger, like

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Speaker 1: what's what's up with that extra finger, and he just

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Speaker 1: kind of starts talking about something else. But but it's implied,

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Speaker 1: especially given the prior scene in which he played as

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Speaker 1: a piano, that it enables the better manipulation of interface

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Speaker 1: tools like the keys of a piano or the keys

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Speaker 1: of a computer, etcetera. Now, if again, this is suggesting

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Speaker 1: this would be selected for an evolution, that would imply

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Speaker 1: that at some point people are like dying or not

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Speaker 1: reproducing as much because they can't type as fast. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's where we get into some some problems with

428
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,640
Speaker 1: this this model if you look at it too closely. Um.

429
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 1: I also had to realize as I was typing up

430
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 1: notes for this, I was hyper conscious of how little

431
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: I actually use my pinky fingers while typing. Now, ultimately

432
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 1: I'm probably using some sort of weird hybrid of of

433
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: actual typing with a little hunt and peck thrown in there.

434
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,360
Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know that I use my pinkies

435
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: all that much, if at all, Unless I'm doing some

436
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: sort of weird hot key, I definitely use mine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

437
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,360
Speaker 1: it's that's semicolon, you know, for cle and sentences. No, yeah,

438
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: I wait, I gotta think of okay, yeah, okay, yeah,

439
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: I do it, Okay, all right, to each is all right.

440
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: I'm not bragging. I mean no, no, I mean I thought,

441
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,400
Speaker 1: because my pinky fingers are way better than yours, well

442
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 1: you know they're not. They're not holding me back. I'm

443
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 1: just saying that, like, you know, when I catch myself typing,

444
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't think the pinkies are really carrying

445
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: their weight here. So it's kind of silly to imagine

446
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: a scenario in which being able to type extra hard

447
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: and be able to hit like crazier hot keys on

448
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: a keyboard would would have this kind of impact on

449
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 1: human evolution. At the same time, maybe it's for the

450
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: next level of PC gaming. Yeah, that's but But on

451
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 1: the other hand, it is true that habitual tool use

452
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 1: has led to the evolved state of the modern human hand,

453
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: including thumb length. So tool use has shaped our bodies,

454
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 1: it has shaped our hand in the past, so it's

455
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: not ridiculous to say that the future human evolution would

456
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: continue to reshape the human hand. But there you would

457
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,239
Speaker 1: be contending with the fact that I think there's you know,

458
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 1: in the environments that we mostly live in today, not

459
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: being able to use a tool as well doesn't usually

460
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: mean that you're going to, you know, on average, have

461
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 1: fewer children than the people next door. That that seems

462
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: like a thing that would be more the case in

463
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 1: like a hunter gatherers survival scenario exactly. Yeah, And ultimately

464
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: we have to remember that you were no longer subject

465
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: to purely natural selection at this stage of the human experience.

466
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's more of an unnatural selection. We

467
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: also have to consider the potential of directed evolution that

468
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: we will, in the future continue to figure out ways

469
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 1: to manipulate our own genes, which brings up the possibility

470
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: that perhaps our far future selves have simply added on

471
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: an extra finger. Right, it's not a situation where we

472
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 1: evolved when, but we realize, hey, having two pinkies on

473
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: each hand would be nice. Let's do it, and then

474
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: we just we just do it. We just check it

475
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,640
Speaker 1: off on the menu of g manipulation, which which reminds

476
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: me of Less Grossman's The Magician and the sci fi

477
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: uh TV series that's based on it. There's a there's

478
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: a dark wizard in the show called the Beast, and

479
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: he has an extra finger on each hand because in

480
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: the in The Magician's casting spells involves a lot of

481
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 1: like fine manipulation of your digits, like sort of like

482
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 1: the the use of moodras and whatnot. Uh So, if

483
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 1: you had an extra digit on each hand, you'd be

484
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: able to cast improve variations of spells. You'd be able

485
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,719
Speaker 1: to cast spells that a normal individual with five digits

486
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: would be incapable of. Well, that makes me wonder who

487
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: invented those spells then, I mean, I guess they're of

488
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: his own creation. Well, yes, and of course there are

489
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: a lot of inhuman being entities in this world as well.

490
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: He could be going to them for such spells. However, uh,

491
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: you know, discussing this idea of like, you know, growing

492
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: extra fingers to manipulate technology, etcetera. As Peter Ward pointed

493
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: out in his Scientific American article The Future of Man,

494
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 1: how will evolution change humans? We also have to consider,

495
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: you know, not only like computer interfaces like keyboards, but

496
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 1: more drastic interfaces, some of the sort of futuristic mind

497
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: computer interfaces that we've discussed in the show before. Um.

498
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 1: He points to a quote from George Dyson in his

499
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: book Darwin Among the Machines. Quote, everything that human beings

500
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: are doing to make it easier to operate computer networks

501
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: is at the same time, but for different reasons, making

502
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 1: it easier from computer networks to operate human being. Darwinian evolution,

503
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: in one of those paradoxes with which life abounds, may

504
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: be a victim of his own success, unable to keep

505
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: up with non Darwinian processes that it has spawned. I

506
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: think there's a lot to that. I mean, I would say,

507
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: I mean, this is in the nineteen nineties, before you

508
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: could anticipate a lot of the stuff that's going on

509
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: now with say social media, in the many ways that

510
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: our our technology is influencing us. But yeah, just one

511
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,360
Speaker 1: thing I would say here is that this person probably

512
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 1: lived through the transition from command line computers to graphical

513
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: user interfaces, and so the obviously having a graphical user

514
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 1: interface makes it way easier for people who don't know

515
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: much about how the computer works or understanding directories and

516
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: commands and all that stuff to use it because it's intuitive.

517
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: It's easy. You just look at the thing, you recognize that,

518
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: you click on it. All that, but also those graphical

519
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: user interfaces I think led to all of the ways

520
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: that computers are now just completely attention monopolizing devices. Absolutely.

521
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: So Ward basically concludes that we'll have to go one

522
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 1: of three different ways as humans continuitive to evolve. Uh.

523
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: There's these There's the stasis direction where we mainly just

524
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: stay the same but with minor tweaks, and also a

525
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: kind of merging of races. There's also a speciation in

526
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: which we break off into different species. Uh, you know,

527
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: and hopefully none of them are are more locks, because

528
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 1: ultimately a speciation is the model that H. G. Wells

529
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: explorers in the time machine. And then he also talks

530
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: about the board grout, which is symbiosis of machines. I

531
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: find it kind of hard to believe that there could

532
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: be human speciation unless you're talking about space colonization, like

533
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: fully separating human populations from one another so that they

534
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: cannot physically come together at all for you know, hundreds

535
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: of hundreds of years. Even if you sent some of

536
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: them below ground to man all the machines and keep

537
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: the surface world running, well, I guess it would depend

538
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: on whether you could go back and forth between I mean,

539
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: I think as long as humans stay in physical contact

540
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: with each other, I find it hard to believe that

541
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: there will be actual human speciation. But then, yeah, space

542
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: colonization does seem like that creates a kind of like

543
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 1: a certain hard divide. It is it is the equivalent

544
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: of having a species wind up on an island and

545
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: um and and co eval. So War doesn't specifically chime

546
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: in on the six finger thing. He doesn't reference that,

547
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: but he does dismiss the idea of giant brained futurized

548
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: humans like we see in the sixth Finger. He says, quote,

549
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: the big brain vision has no real scientific basis. The

550
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: fossil record of skull sizes over the past several thousand

551
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: generations shows that our days of rapid increase in brain

552
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: size are long over. Yeah. In fact, we we already peaked, right,

553
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: We're we're our average brain sizes in the modern world

554
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: are smaller than they used to be. Yeah. But ultimately,

555
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: this episode of Outer Limits is not just about biological evolution,

556
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: is about the evolution of of what it means to

557
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: be human? Uh, you know, can is there a potential

558
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: for us to change in a more meaningful way? Can

559
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: we become, for instance, more empathetic? Can we become more

560
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: present as a species kinder? Uh? This is the idea

561
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,959
Speaker 1: that the episode is playing with and hoping for and

562
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: and ultimately, like that's where it gets to at the

563
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: end with this, he the character, while he's still more human,

564
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: is you know, possessed by this this quest for vengeance

565
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: against the people who operate the mind in which he works.

566
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: And by the end of it, he has evolved beyond

567
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: these feelings of vengeance. Like there's a period in the

568
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: in the episode where he wants to use his crazy

569
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: you know future brain powers to go you know, wreak

570
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: havoc on them, but by the end of it he realizes, no,

571
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: that is not the way. Well, I would say, I

572
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: think it certainly is possible for us to become more empathetic, um, uh,

573
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: you know, less vengeful and violent and all that kind

574
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: of stuff. But I don't think you necessarily need biological

575
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: changes for that to happen. I mean, I think we've

576
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: seen massive changes in the levels of like violence and

577
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: vengefulness you see in the average person across different societies

578
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: through time, and the main changes are through like culture,

579
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: like like social norms, how children are educated, what's acceptable

580
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: socially within your friend groups, and the culture. Right, So

581
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: changes in the software as opposed to the hardware. Yeah,

582
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: but then of course we have to we have to

583
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: consider like the rate of which software can change, at

584
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: the rate of which it may evolve, uh, you know

585
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: how and no matter how pleasant uh a human civilization's

586
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: current software, maybe how much has to happen to it

587
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: to make it well to to use a naughty word

588
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: on this show, devolve into some lesser state. Well, yeah,

589
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that's the danger. I mean, yeah,

590
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: cultural changes can can be undone, maybe as quickly as

591
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: they can be done, or even quicker. By the way,

592
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: I was reading about the original script and the production

593
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: of this episode of The Outer Limits, and according to

594
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: the Outer Limits companion by David J. Scoe, uh Dorothy Brown,

595
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: the ABC sensor at the time, had objected to the

596
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: Darwinism and promotion of evolution inherent in the sixth finger

597
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: so one. In fact, one of the early deletions from

598
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,959
Speaker 1: the script was a speech on the topic of evolution.

599
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: Well that's funny, I mean again, like to really explore

600
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: the what's happening to the character in the episode is

601
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: not actually Darwinian evolution. But but that's funny. Yeah, I mean,

602
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: I guess it does rely on the idea that there's

603
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: like a roadmap for our species generally, which also is

604
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: not part of Darwinian evolution. So it's not like not

605
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: really hitting the viewer over the head with, you know,

606
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: a hardcore speech on evolution. But I think just the

607
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: mere fact that they were citing evolution and speaking speaking

608
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: of evolution um and the works of Darwin as being

609
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: you know, something that we can actually you know, hang

610
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: our scientific hat on. Um, they were afraid it was

611
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: going to offend people. Well yeah, I mean I I

612
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: grew up surrounded by that kind of opposition and and

613
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: sensitivity to ideas about evolution. But I I don't know,

614
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: despite that, I'm kind of surprised that it made ABC

615
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: censorship priorities. Yeah, especially in a show like this, which

616
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,719
Speaker 1: you know, ultimately is you know, kind of high minded

617
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: and stuffy. Well, I guess also trading and science fiction,

618
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: which would have had a you know, a certain amount

619
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: of appeal to younger audiences as well. But still absolutely say,

620
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: this is a pretty solid episode of The Outer Limits.

621
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: I think it stands up really well today. You have

622
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: to go into it knowing you're not going to get

623
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: an action packed, um you know episode here this is

624
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: this is a very talky episode mode, but it's it's

625
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: really solid, well shot, well acted, um worth checking out.

626
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: I think a lot of the best anthology, sci fi

627
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: and horror episodes are not actually action packed. Uh. They

628
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: often tend to be rather subdued, just dealing with a

629
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: strange idea as discussed by a handful of characters. Yeah,

630
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 1: and you know, sometimes you do see this kind of

631
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 1: unevenness to the perceived budget of a show, like you

632
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: know that some of those anthology episodes maybe they had

633
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: a had a few more bucks to spend on the cast,

634
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: on the locations, and some are essentially kind of bottle

635
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: episodes where there's just like one set or it's it's

636
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: almost kind of a stage piece, but there's you know

637
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: when it when it's really well done, you know that

638
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: will certainly get you there to serve. Man, is an

639
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 1: action packed either is? Yeah, it's just and that's the

640
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: one that we talked about last year. Right, speaking of Joe,

641
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: what is your selection your final selection for this year's

642
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 1: Anthology of Horror Episodes? Well, I wanted to talk about

643
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: my favorite all times since Treehouse of Horror episode Citizen Kang.

644
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: This is from Simpson's tree House of Horror seven. It

645
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: originally aired October, and I think this is this is

646
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: not only one of my favorite uh Simpson's bits, ever,

647
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: I think it is some of the best political satire

648
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: in American media history. Yeah. This this is just a

649
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: great tree House episode period. I rewatched it the other

650
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: night with the family, and I must have seen it

651
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: a dozen times in the in the past because in

652
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: addition to Citizen Kang. It also contains the genesis tub.

653
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: This is where Lise's tooth grows a civil of civilization

654
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: after it gets a little static shock from Bart, which

655
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: is very similar to a tale by George R. Martin

656
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: that was adapted by the nineteen nineties revival of The

657
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: Outer Limits more or less along the same time. And

658
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: then this episode also has The Thing and I, which

659
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: is a great more of sort of a straight up

660
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: horror piece, which contains twist ending that I have to

661
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: say is nearly identical to the twist ending of a

662
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: certain top twenty nineteen horror film. Okay, well, let's not

663
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,399
Speaker 1: say any more than that. I think you know the one, right, Yeah,

664
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: I know exactly what you're talking about, but I don't

665
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: want to spoil it for anybody else. All Right, we

666
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 1: need to take a quick commercial break, but we will

667
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: be right back. Thank Okay, So this Simpson's tree House

668
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: of Horror again. It aired at the end of October nineteen,

669
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 1: and at the time it actually aired, the United States

670
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,760
Speaker 1: was right in the final days of a presidential election

671
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: that was pitting incumbent Democratic President Bill Clinton against Republican

672
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,919
Speaker 1: Senator Bob Dole from Kansas. And in this tree House

673
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: of Horror segment, alien invaders Kang and Kodos, who are

674
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: from a certain ringed planet who they prefer not to

675
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 1: mention um. They plot to take over the world by

676
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: body snatching both Clinton and Dole and taking their places

677
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: in the election as lookalikes, and the idea is stated

678
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,439
Speaker 1: pretty dire actually by Kang and the guys of Bob Dole.

679
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: A reporter asks the Kang Dole Senator Dole, why should

680
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 1: people vote for you instead of President Clinton? And Kang

681
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: Dole responds, it makes no difference which one of us

682
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: you vote for. Either way, your planet is doomed, doomed

683
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: replacing both. That's a good idea, right, Yeah, then there's

684
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: no risk, right either way, they're gonna win. Yeah. So

685
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 1: in this uh, in this little plot, Homer becomes aware

686
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 1: of the alien takeover plot because he happened to be

687
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: on the alien ship when Clinton and Dole were replicated.

688
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: So he decides he's got to reveal Kang and Kodos

689
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: for what they are. So he runs on stage at

690
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: an event I think at the Capitol Building where both

691
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: candidates are speaking, and he rips off their disguises, revealing

692
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: them both as hideous space reptiles, but Kangan Kodos seem unfazed, declaring,

693
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: it's true we are aliens, but what are you going

694
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: to do about it. It's a two party system. You

695
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: have to vote for one of us. And then some

696
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: in the crowd suggests voting for a third party candidate,

697
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: and Kodo says, go ahead, throw your vote away. So

698
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: the Americans, of course, end up electing Kang, who immediately

699
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: enslaves all humans and he puts them to work constructing

700
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 1: a giant laser to aim at some third, unspecify, unspecified planet.

701
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,919
Speaker 1: And then Marge laments the state of affairs that they're

702
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 1: they're suffering under right now, and Homer smugly declares, don't

703
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: blame me. I voted for Kodos. I think this this

704
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 1: might be the best nine minutes of political science, satire

705
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 1: and American pop culture history. Uh. And I don't want

706
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: to be misunderstood there based on some of the themes

707
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: in the episode, because, of course, a major theme here

708
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 1: is the pointlessness and futility of some parts of the

709
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: democratic process. I don't want to be mistaken for saying

710
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: I think it makes no difference who you vote for

711
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: for president, or that all politicians are the same. You know,

712
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 1: I think that's the kind of thing that it's like

713
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: easy to say and feel superior or about saying when

714
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:02,919
Speaker 1: you don't want to put in the work to learn

715
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: what's going on and what's at stake. Right, it was

716
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: the kind of statement I would have found very attractive

717
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: when I was like a first year college student, kind

718
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 1: of intellectually lazy but wanting to stake ammorl claim. Yeah,

719
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: I're wanting to to differentiate yourself from you know, the

720
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: politics that you might have been born into. It's easier.

721
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 1: Instead of saying, actually, I disagree with you completely and

722
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: I go to this side, you can just say, oh,

723
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: I think I don't sorry, I don't go for any

724
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: of it, right, Yeah, you know, I can remember being

725
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: like that. I wanted to have a strong opinion without

726
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 1: having to do the work to earn an opinion. So

727
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: I don't think that way anymore. But at the same time,

728
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 1: while I don't generally feel the field that's always true

729
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: about elections, I think there is some real cutting wisdom

730
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: in that satire, because even though it's not the case

731
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: that all politicians are the same, in elections don't matter

732
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: people often overestimate how much their democratic choice will make

733
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: a difference to particular issues they really care about. I mean,

734
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: there's so many big problems that you thought electing the

735
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: right person might solve, and then that person was elected

736
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: and the problem stayed the same or got worse. But

737
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: even more than that, I think this episode is brilliant

738
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: at highlighting the absurd and nonsensical conclusions often reached by

739
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: group choice algorithms that we follow in our politics. And

740
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: that's sort of what I wanted to look at here

741
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: in relation to this episode. In that mein, I want

742
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: to explore the question of whether or not the election

743
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:33,240
Speaker 1: of Kang is an example of the Abilene paradox. Robert,

744
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: had you ever come across this concept before? I don't

745
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: believe I had no. Yeah, I I think this is

746
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 1: very useful to have in your tool kit of of

747
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: concepts to apply to the world, because it's absolutely something

748
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: that explains many unfortunate group behaviors in politics, in business,

749
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: even in like family vacations and and hang out with

750
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: your friends. Uh So, this paradox was explained in a

751
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,720
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four paper by the George Washington University scholar

752
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: Jerry B. Harvey, which was published in the journal Organizational Dynamics,

753
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: and I'm going to give a kind of updated scenario

754
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: here for you to consider. So imagine the following scenario.

755
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: You are hanging out with your friends p J, Nancy,

756
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: and Jamie Lee. It's October. You're all just finished babysitting.

757
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 1: You're at Nancy's house carving a pumpkin, and you're watching

758
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 1: an old Howard Hawks movie on TV, The Thing from

759
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: Another World. You're hanging out, You're having an okay time.

760
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: But then suddenly Nancy says, hey, does anybody want to

761
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 1: go out and see a movie? And p J says, yeah,

762
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: that could be cool. Let's see what's playing. So you

763
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: look up show times at the local theater and the

764
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: only show left tonight is a midnight showing of The

765
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: Purge seventeen as the World Purges. Uh So p J says, yeah,

766
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: we could see that if you guys want, and Nancy says, yeah, okay,

767
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: I could be down to go to the Purge, and

768
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: Jamie Lee says sure, if you two want to see it,

769
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 1: I'm in. So since all of your friends agreed, you

770
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: resign yourself. You say, okay, let's see it. Tickets are

771
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: fourteen dollars apiece. Uh. The movie stars Fred Durst and

772
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: Tim Allen. It's three and a half hours long. At

773
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 1: multiple moments, you consider leaving the theater, but you don't

774
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: want to go out alone and leave your friends behind,

775
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: So you sit through this whole terrible movie, and when

776
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: the credits finally roll, you leave the theater with a

777
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,879
Speaker 1: throbbing headache, and you immediately ask why did we do

778
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: that to ourselves? And Jamie Lee says, I don't know.

779
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: It sounded pretty bad to me, but I thought the

780
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: rest of you wanted to see it, And Nancy says, well,

781
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: I didn't want to see it. I just thought the

782
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: rest of you did. And p J says, well, don't

783
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: look at me. I just said I was okay with

784
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: it if you guys wanted to go. Weren't you the

785
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: one who suggested it? And Nancy, the one who did

786
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: suggest going to a movie finally says well, I just

787
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 1: thought you guys might be bored hanging out at the house.

788
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 1: So it turns out that none of the four of

789
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: you actually wanted to see this movie, and yet somehow

790
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 1: you collectively decided it would be the best thing to

791
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: do with your time together. Everybody agreed on a course

792
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 1: of action that nobody individually wanted. Robert. Can I assume

793
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: this experience is somewhat familiar to you? Yeah? Maybe from

794
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: I think probably the best example I can think of

795
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: is like when as a family when I was a kid,

796
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: sometimes we would agree on what to watch, and you know,

797
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: sometimes it's something that one of us had a definite

798
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 1: steak in, but other times it kind of felt like

799
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 1: this where we ended up agreeing to watch a movie

800
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: just because it was it was a major film that

801
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: came out, and we're like, Okay, I guess we're watching

802
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: Oh uh God. I can't even think of a good

803
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: example of just something, you know, whatever the big mainstream

804
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: family film was that had to hit theaters and was

805
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: now on VHS Christmas with the Cranks. Well, maybe not

806
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: that bad, but but stuff stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah,

807
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: So this would be a prime example of what Harvey

808
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,919
Speaker 1: calls the Abeleyan paradox, and the name Abolean paradox comes

809
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 1: from the story Jerry Harvey tells to open his paper.

810
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: It's similar to the story I told, but it's about

811
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,800
Speaker 1: a family in Texas making a long drive to a

812
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,280
Speaker 1: Baleen in a non air conditioned car in hot weather.

813
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: It's a completely miserable experience, as you would expect. And

814
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: it turns out nobody actually wanted to go to Abilene

815
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: in the first place. Every member of the family just

816
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: thought the other family members wanted to go and then

817
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: failed to communicate their actual preferences. And as Harvey puts

818
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 1: it in this article, the Abilene paradox is the fact

819
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 1: that quote organizations frequently take actions in contradiction to what

820
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: they really want to do and therefore defeat the very

821
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: purposes they're trying to achieve. And any characterizes the Abilene

822
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: paradox says not a failure to manage disagreement, but a

823
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 1: failure to manage agreement. Uh So, when I first read

824
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 1: about this at some point in the past couple of years,

825
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, this kind of thing.

826
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: I recognize so much of this in the world. How

827
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,720
Speaker 1: have I gone this long without a name for it?

828
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: It seems to me to be a problem for group

829
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: choice at all kinds of levels. Again, you mentioned you

830
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,280
Speaker 1: know a family trying to to decide what movie to see,

831
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 1: but you know a group of friends trying to decide

832
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 1: what to do, how to spend their Sunday, or a

833
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 1: democratic society trying to elect their leaders. Many kinds of

834
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: group choice problems I think arise, of course, from the

835
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: inability to manage conflict. But this is the opposite. Harvey

836
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: argues that even more group choice problems arise from the

837
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: inability to manage agreement. And another real world example that

838
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: Harvey gives in his paper is the Watergate scandal. He

839
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: he quotes a number of people involved in Nixon's came

840
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: the Nixon campaign's dirty Tricks team, who all claimed privately

841
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 1: that they had doubts not only about the morality about

842
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: but about the practical wisdom of their scheme that to

843
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: each of them privately seemed like the payoffs were not

844
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: really worth the risks. But they each assumed they were

845
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 1: the only ones with such doubts, and thus acted along

846
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 1: with the rest of the group in a way that

847
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 1: hurt all of them, even though they privately most or

848
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: all thought it was a bad idea. Uh So, it's

849
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: like Nixon wants to purge, Lily wants to purge. So

850
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: I guess, I mean, I don't really want to purge,

851
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: but if everybody's in the mood to purge, I guess

852
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: I'm in right and uh. In a lot of his paper,

853
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: Harvey just analyzes what he sees, or like the he

854
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: he thinks the common organizational symptoms of the Abilene paradox.

855
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 1: For example, he talks about the idea of action anxiety. Yeah.

856
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: He explains this by quoting Shakespeare's Hamlet. He says, action

857
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: anxiety is that which quote makes us rather bear those

858
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: ills we have than fly to others we know not,

859
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 1: of which, of course, is what you know. Hamlet talks

860
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: about the idea of going on through pain rather than

861
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: like ending it and going on to see what undiscovered

862
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,959
Speaker 1: country lies beyond the grave. Um. But it's a fear

863
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 1: of acting on your actual preferences, an environment that makes

864
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: pursuing the path that you don't want seem like the

865
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: less scary option than asking for the path that you

866
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 1: do want. Well. That's also touched on a little bit

867
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 1: in Macbeth. Right, idea about it having waited so far

868
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: through the blood that it's better to just go on

869
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: through to the other side of this this blood lake

870
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: than to turn back around, even if turning back around

871
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 1: is what you really want to do. Yeah, And he

872
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: and Harvey roots a lot of this actually and appeals

873
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,919
Speaker 1: to human psychology. He says, you know, some of our

874
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: greatest fears are expressed as negative fantasies about fear, about

875
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: fears of separation and ostracization. You know, it's like terrifying

876
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,479
Speaker 1: to be the one to step out and say, I'm

877
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 1: going to challenge the momentum of this group that you

878
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 1: know that like whether it's even in simple things like

879
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 1: going out to a movie. Like you're going out to

880
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 1: a movie with friends. I mean, maybe you're comfortable enough

881
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: with the friends to say no, actually I don't want

882
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: to do this. But like a lot of times, especially

883
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: if you don't know people as well, you'd rather just

884
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 1: not be thought of as the jerk who said let's

885
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: not do it. Yeah, because you're engaging, and you're you're

886
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: kind of engaging in this group. Think you know, it's

887
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 1: something as simple as say, like a group of friends

888
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 1: getting together to to play Dungeons and Dragons. You know

889
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: you're not, you know, you're not a dirty tricks counsel

890
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: or whatever. You know you're not. All you're doing is

891
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: just trying to hang out and play a game. But

892
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 1: you know, still don't want to shake the boat if

893
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 1: somebody wants to get fried pickles, you know, um, even

894
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 1: if you really don't care for fried pickles all that much. Right,

895
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: But maybe the person who suggested it doesn't either, and

896
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: they're just saying because they thought somebody else did. Yeah,

897
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 1: And so you reach a point where every week you

898
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: order fried pickles, even though nobody's really crazy about fried pickles,

899
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: and everybody probably feels a little bad about eating them

900
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 1: every week. Yeah. So in the end, Harvey comes up

901
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: with a couple of recommendations for diagnosing and dealing with

902
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 1: UH with abilene paradox is in a business context. Unfortunately,

903
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: there's no special magic trick. Basically, he says, he thinks

904
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: the best way to deal with it is for an

905
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: authority figure who detects a situation like this to call

906
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: a meeting, frankly, articulate their doubts in a group setting,

907
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 1: and then ask others to share their honest thoughts. If

908
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,800
Speaker 1: you're an authority figure, you have you know, it's safer

909
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 1: for you to go out on a limb and question

910
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 1: the direction that you're going in, all right, I mean,

911
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,760
Speaker 1: that's that's why they make the big bucks, right. This,

912
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: This is the this is the moment when they can

913
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: really earn that higher pay that the higher pay grade

914
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: right right be the authority figured that comes in and

915
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: shuts down, uh, you know, things that nobody really wants

916
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 1: to do, or that there's no real advantage to doing

917
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: from a business standpoint. Yeah. Now, in the political context,

918
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: I think the Kang in Kodos situation kind of highlights

919
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 1: a satirical absurd version of this, with the idea that uh,

920
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: you know, obviously humans would all recognize like, okay, we

921
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:39,799
Speaker 1: we are all in agreement. We're in agreement. We don't

922
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: want either Kang or Kodos. That's the position shared by

923
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,800
Speaker 1: everybody voting at this point. But they're able to cause

924
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: this action anxiety about organizing any kind of third option,

925
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 1: the idea of throwing your vote away on any kind

926
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: of third party candidate. When you've got Kang in Kodos,

927
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 1: there is going out on a limb. You fear ostracization,

928
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,839
Speaker 1: you fear being separated, you fear being different, and so

929
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: eventually they just kind of decide, well, which one will

930
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: I take, Hanger Kodos, And despite everybody agreeing that neither

931
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 1: option is wanted, but it keeps everybody together I mean,

932
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 1: humanity is united at the end in their enslavement to

933
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: these uh, these terrible alien overlords. No they're not. They're

934
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:25,280
Speaker 1: still bickering. Don't blame me. That's genius of it is there.

935
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: I mean, they're essentially unified, but they still have the

936
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: mindset of division. Uh uh yeah. And so I think

937
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: the way around that, of course, would be that it

938
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:37,760
Speaker 1: requires some kind of uh risk of leadership for somebody

939
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: to say, hey, wait a minute, can we try to

940
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: organize some way to get around this too? You know,

941
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: the two options we've got here that we all agree

942
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: we don't want. That sounds like a really wicked problem

943
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: to deal with them. Well, yeah, I mean, I think

944
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: the point the writers are making there is that we're

945
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 1: just not good at organizing that kind of agreement effectively. Now,

946
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: what do we do about the fact that we're often

947
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 1: not good at me and ing agreement? And this leads

948
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: to repeated absurdities like the kang and like the election

949
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,800
Speaker 1: of kang Um. Well he actually Harvey ends his paper

950
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 1: with a strangely philosophical note for an organizational dynamics paper. Uh.

951
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,720
Speaker 1: He says that, you know, sometimes these situations simply cannot

952
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:20,319
Speaker 1: be resolved, and he calls to mind the myth of Sysyphus,

953
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 1: the character from Greek mythology who was condemned to forever

954
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 1: repeat the task of pushing a boulder up a hill,

955
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 1: only for it to fall back down to the bottom again,

956
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: making a mockery of his effort. Says, not only painful

957
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 1: but pointless. Uh. And in Albert Camus version of the myth,

958
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 1: he adds a detail that sometimes, in his endless loop

959
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: of absurd toil, Sisyphus would get near the top of

960
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: the hill, but then release the boulder of his own accord,

961
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 1: letting it roll back down to the bottom on purpose.

962
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: And Harvey says, in this act he could transcend the

963
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 1: absurdity of his struggle. Uh. And I think this is

964
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: sort of the bull's eye of existential philosophy, right, life

965
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: is absurd, and you transcend that absurdity by recognizing your

966
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 1: radical freedom and acting authentically, which means basically without lying

967
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: to yourself about the absurdity of life. Like this is

968
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 1: when you write in a third candidate, Now, I think

969
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: actually in this case it might be more like voting

970
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 1: for Kang or not voting or something what While recognizing

971
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: the absurdity and unwinnable nous of the scenario. So I

972
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: don't know if that's the best thing to do in

973
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: the alien election. I would say, actually try to organize

974
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 1: the third party. But I think the uh, this whole

975
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 1: discussion actually does bring us back to real questions about

976
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: the field of astro politics. I mean, this is something

977
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: I think we could devote whole episodes to in the future.

978
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: There's actually a field of study and people have written

979
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 1: about like what would happen if aliens arrived on Earth?

980
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: Like what would be the political response to that? How

981
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: would different world economic and military powers behave? Uh, you know,

982
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 1: would we all ban together, would we put aside our

983
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 1: differences and are elf interest and say we need to

984
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: organize an act together as Earth? Or would aliens be

985
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 1: able to exploit our petty grievances and our differences and

986
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: turn us against one another? And I think, unfortunately, I

987
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,799
Speaker 1: think there are some pretty good signs pointing towards the ladder. Yeah,

988
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 1: I mean, our only model for intelligent life in the

989
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 1: cosmos is our model of intelligent life of of a

990
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: technologically advanced civilization. And when we look at the way

991
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: that uh, you know, certainly the way the civilizations have

992
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 1: interacted with each other. And I certainly look at the

993
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 1: way that you know, Western colonization, how that transpired. We

994
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,800
Speaker 1: see time and time again basically the Kyan Kodos model.

995
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,280
Speaker 1: Manipulate their their leaders and their leadership, corrupt their uh,

996
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: their their rule, and work one side against the other,

997
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 1: ultimately overpower and bring enslavement and death. I mean, that's

998
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 1: that is the story of of human history, sadly, and

999
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,359
Speaker 1: so when we look to the stars, you know, there

1000
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 1: are plenty of people have said, well, that's basically what

1001
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 1: we can expect based on our models, based on our

1002
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 1: knowledge of our self, knowledge of how we work, that

1003
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,720
Speaker 1: is what we can expect from a superior technological force.

1004
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 1: Like we want to imagine the independence day scenario where

1005
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 1: we all come together and join forces. But I don't know,

1006
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 1: I don't want to be overly optimistic. Yeah, I mean,

1007
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:24,839
Speaker 1: you know, unless we look to our optimism in the

1008
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: sixth finger. And I think a lot of people have

1009
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of certainly the various um New

1010
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: Age religions that have popped up around the idea of aliens.

1011
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 1: You know, they look to aliens as a possibly we're

1012
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,720
Speaker 1: all we're all messed up in this world and we're

1013
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 1: you know, we we have just committed crime after crime,

1014
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 1: and we're shackled to the terror of history. Maybe something

1015
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 1: will come down from above that has evolved beyond this

1016
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: state and that can guide us, that can help us

1017
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 1: find this new uh, you know, shape of being. Uh.

1018
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 1: And you know, maybe that's the case. But again, if

1019
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: we're looking at our own example of intelligent life, I'm

1020
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: not sure that that's going to happen. I wouldn't put

1021
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 1: hope in aliens being being a good influence on us.

1022
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: I wouldn't put hope in us biologically evolving beyond our

1023
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:15,800
Speaker 1: our petty grievances and all that. I think the hope

1024
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 1: lies in culture, unfortunately, and thus it is up to

1025
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 1: people like writers and political leaders and those kinds of

1026
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 1: figures to help shape human culture in a way that

1027
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 1: that allows us to to act collectively in our own

1028
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 1: best interest. I know that's not the easiest thing to

1029
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 1: put hope in, but I think that might be the

1030
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:38,399
Speaker 1: only hope personally. Yeah, I mean, well, that's that's that's

1031
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 1: the hard answer. That's a difficult answer, but it's that's

1032
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 1: that's the one that requires us to work. That's the

1033
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 1: one that requires us to do the heavy lifting here. Yeah,

1034
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 1: we've got to fix our own problems, mostly using words.

1035
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: All right, I'm sure we'll come back to this topic

1036
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: in the future of Oh, I definitely. I think we

1037
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 1: could do some stuff on astro politics. Absolute, yeah, yeah,

1038
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: I would be down for that. Absolutely. But there you

1039
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 1: have it. This is gonna be our third installment of

1040
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,839
Speaker 1: the Anthology of Horror uh kangan Kodo's willing. We will

1041
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: return next October with at least one at least a

1042
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:18,560
Speaker 1: volume four, if not a volume four and five, And

1043
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:21,759
Speaker 1: of course, ironically that'll be pretty much just uh you know,

1044
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 1: right before the the the peak moment of American politics

1045
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,280
Speaker 1: heading into the next presidential election. Probably won't do politics

1046
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: when then, probably not all right. In the meantime, if

1047
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 1: you want to check out other episodes of Stuff to

1048
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 1: Blow your Mind, head on over to stuff to Blow

1049
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. That's where you'll find them. You

1050
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 1: can also find the podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

1051
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 1: But again, this was how our Anthology of Horror Volume three,

1052
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 1: Volume two came out Tuesday, and we reran volume one

1053
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:52,839
Speaker 1: over the weekend. Also, if you want to check out

1054
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,720
Speaker 1: our other show, Invention. You can find that at invention

1055
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 1: pod dot com and that's available everywhere you get your podcasts.

1056
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:02,360
Speaker 1: Oh and also the fiction podcast the Second oil Age

1057
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: launched as well. The first three episodes of that are

1058
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: live wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, congratulations man, well,

1059
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you alright, Uh, so that's it for

1060
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: this episode. Certainly we have not seen all of the

1061
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: horror anthology episodes out there. Uh, we're not familiar with

1062
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 1: all the shows. So from now until next October, if

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Speaker 1: you have specific episodes of various anthology shows you would

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00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 1: like us to consider for next time, let us know.

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00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 1: If they're just whole shows, whole buckets of content that

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00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 1: we're not aware of, please enlighten us. One of the

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00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 1: cool places you can find us for that, uh is

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00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: our our Facebook discussion group. It is the Stuff Table

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00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 1: Your Mind discussion module. Go check that out huge. Thanks

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Speaker 1: as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson.

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Speaker 1: No wait, death, Nicholas Johnson. That's right. If you would

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Speaker 1: like to get in touch with us directly with feedback

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00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:56,920
Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

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00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hello, you can

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Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

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00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production

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00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from

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00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 1: my heart Radio is the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.