1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Body does with Joseph's gotten more. I guess I was 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: probably about four years old, and I had gone with 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: my mother to this gigantic in my eyes, at least, 4 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: there was this gigantic shopping mall back in the sixties. 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: And you know, when you're little, you hold on to 6 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: your mama's hand when you go out public. My mother 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: demanded it, and I would hold her hand, and of course, 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: Mama's being mama's, they get distracted. We were in a 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: department store and she's looking around and looking at the 10 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: racks of clothes, and somehow don't ask me how we 11 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: got separated, but I came to the realization that I 12 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: was holding a stranger's hand, and sure enough I looked 13 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: up and there was a lady who had a child 14 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: on her other side, and she looked down at me 15 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: and considered me. I looked at her, and immediately I 16 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: started crying. I still remember that to this day. It 17 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:10,479 Speaker 1: burns into my mind because there was this overwhelming fear 18 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: that crept in, and I can still remember that from 19 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: that age to the age I am today. Just think 20 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: about it, your parent, your grandparent, and those things that 21 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: tether us together, those familial bonds, Sometimes they are hands. 22 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: Sometimes they're just being able to see. Sometimes, particularly nowadays, 23 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: there are electronics that tether us together. But just imagine 24 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: your worst nightmare comes true. You try to call, there's 25 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: no answer, You go to look, there's nothing seen, until 26 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: finally someone comes to you and tells you that you're 27 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: precious angels are gone. Coming to you from Jacksonville State University. 28 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks Dave. I 29 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 1: guess probably since I guess the second month after after 30 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: the Delphie case happened, I was in. I was all in. 31 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, I was in so much 32 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: that Kim and I we when we would go to 33 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: crime Con. From that time forward, we became acquainted very 34 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: well with Patty family, the grandparents of Liberty, Liberty German, 35 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: and got to know them quite well. I remember my 36 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: wife being over with Liberty's grandmother and both of them 37 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: weeping together, my wife praying for at crime Con and 38 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: we just stayed in touch. We stayed in touch with Kelsey, 39 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: who is the sister that dropped both girls off at 40 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: the bridge, and we heard her tell her story. We've 41 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: watched her as she has gone through life can you 42 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: imagine bearing that burden through She's gotten married, gone to college, 43 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: gotten married, and had a baby. Since then, it goes 44 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: to sha and all it took to do this. Yeah, 45 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: I know. And that's the thing about it, you know, 46 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: I would it's like every year, you know, we would 47 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: see them over a period of time. We're in twenty 48 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: twenty four LA right now, and obviously this happened seven 49 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: years ago, and so it's like every year you expect. 50 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: It's like I would walk in there. There were a 51 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: couple of people that I would always first try to 52 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: see and you're hoping against hope that they're going to 53 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: say something to you that will reveal more information than 54 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: we had had the last time that we had met, 55 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: which had been one calendar here prior to that, and 56 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: it never came to fruition, never seemed like it happened. 57 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: There would be little snippets that would come out, and 58 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 1: there would even be some of the authority figures that 59 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: weren't working on the case that would appear at crime 60 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: con but it just nothing seemed to gel. And you 61 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: could just see there's a weird thing that goes on 62 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: with the families of victims. You can kind of see 63 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: this hollowed out, hopeless look in their face that I've 64 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: seen many times before, but it was I don't know, 65 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 1: there was just something about this that has always haunted me, 66 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: Dave about this case that it just it was not 67 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:59,679 Speaker 1: solved any sooner than it has been. Again, I submit 68 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: to you, I don't think that it's necessarily been solved. 69 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: It's just that we're in the midst of a trial 70 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: right now and they have someone that is accused of 71 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: doing this. But it's baggage, you know, that people carry 72 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: with them forever, and you know, here I am grousing 73 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: about what my perception was. I'm a stranger. I'm an outsider. 74 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: You know. I didn't take care of these children when 75 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: they were little. They're not mine. I'm not linked to them, 76 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,239 Speaker 1: but we're all kind of linked to them now because 77 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: we've been following this for so long. 78 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: When it first happened, talking right around Valentine's Day twenty seventeen, 79 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 2: and I remember Nancy covering this story as it became 80 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: a national story at the time. Her twins we're a 81 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 2: little younger than the victims here, and if you can 82 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 2: imagine that, which it's one of those things when you're 83 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,280 Speaker 2: a parent and a grandparent, you look at ages of 84 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 2: children think that could be mine. And that's why so 85 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 2: many people really did gravitate to this story of Libby 86 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: and Abbey. Here's what happened. It was February thirteen, twenty seventeen, Delphi, Indiana, 87 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 2: where Abby and Libby are best friends. They have been 88 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 2: best friends for years. They spend time at one another's 89 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,799 Speaker 2: houses and that's what they had done that night. Abbey's 90 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 2: had spent the night before with Libby and they got 91 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 2: up that in Ney. It was a snow day, but 92 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 2: not because it snowed. It was a snow day that 93 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 2: had been set aside for snow day, and when it 94 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 2: wasn't used, the kids got it anyway, you know. Met 95 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,559 Speaker 2: it a teacher workday, and so they were off school 96 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 2: that Monday, and Abby and Libby wanted to go to 97 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 2: the Mona and High Bridge, the park, the trails. It's 98 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 2: called a number of different things, but it was an 99 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 2: area that was visited by many people in that area 100 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 2: to walk the trails. It was a regular spot for 101 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 2: many people, and that's what they were doing. 102 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: Now, Dave, can I say something right here real quick? 103 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: This is actually a very specific point that has intrigued 104 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: me all these years later. Okay, and here's what it is. 105 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: You remember, do you remember what it was like when 106 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: we were kids and we had a teacher work day 107 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: and you were going to have free day at home. 108 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: You know, you could have free day to do. You know, 109 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: you thought it was just about anything you wanted to do. 110 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about an actual snow day where you 111 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: were locked inside and you were hoping to go out 112 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: sledding or do all the stuff that was down here 113 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: in South get much of a chance to do. No, 114 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: I'm talking about today where you just have the ability 115 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: to free roam. One of the things that has really 116 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: struck me about this case from the beginning. Maybe I'm 117 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: off base, I don't know, but one of the things 118 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: I've always wondered about, Dave, is do you realize how 119 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: intimately involved with a community you have to be. What 120 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: kind of an awareness you have to have in order to 121 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: know that there is going to be a schoolid absent day. 122 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: I mean you have to understand things like the buses. 123 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: You're not going to put your kid on the bus. 124 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: There's going to be in One of the other things 125 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: is you got to look out for kids, because otherwise 126 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: you're going about your daily life. Now there's going to 127 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: be kids out there, just like summertime. You're saying, why 128 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: are all the kids out? You know, that sort of thing. 129 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: And many times it's sent home. The school would send 130 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: a notice or I guess nowadays you get an email, 131 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: you know, telling the parents there's not going to be 132 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: school meeting. But that implies that you have to be 133 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: involved in that area just to have that knowledge, and 134 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: particularly if you go down this path of where you 135 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: think that one of these two victims, or perhaps both 136 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: we're targeted. 137 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: Dave Well, Livvy and Abbey. We're fourteen and thirteen at 138 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 2: the time, and as you mentioned, it's teach your workday, 139 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it. They were out of 140 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 2: school that day and so they were looking for something 141 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: to do. The weather was nice. I don't know what 142 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: Indiana weather is like. It's not like us doing. 143 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: It's no, it's not. It's cold. It's very very cold, 144 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 1: bone chilling cold as a matter of fact. And of 145 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: course further you go up north in state, you get 146 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 1: close to those lakes up there, and it's it's brutal. 147 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: On this day, it wasn't that cold. It was actually 148 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,079 Speaker 1: a lot of somebody. Yeah, some people had described it 149 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: as like a late spring day, which is rare's hens 150 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: teeth up up in that area. So you know how 151 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: it is when it's been like just insufferably cold for 152 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: so long and all of a sudden, it's like you 153 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: get a breath of fresh air, you know, and you 154 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: get to get out and you fill the warm sun 155 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: on your face, or you know, maybe a cool refreshing 156 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: breeze instead of those breezes that cut you down to 157 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: the bone, you know, low humidity. Perhaps it's just you 158 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 1: just want to be out in it and experience it. 159 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 2: And so the girls wanted to go out and do that. 160 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 2: Abby and Libby had gone to Libby's grandmother, Becky Patty, 161 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 2: and asked, you know, hey, can we go down to 162 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: the bridge and the trails and it was Becky Patty 163 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 2: has said she had a home office that she worked 164 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 2: in and she's working in her and so she's kind 165 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 2: of like, yeah, go ahead, but make sure you wear 166 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 2: something cold. You know, don't go off without wearing something warm. 167 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: Even though it's warm out now, it's going to get cold, 168 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 2: and you know, being a parent, grandparent, yeah, that's the 169 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 2: first thing you think of your child, the one you're 170 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 2: responsible for being comfortable. So, Kelsey, you mentioned her a 171 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: minute ago. Libby's older sister, Kelsey, she gave the girls 172 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 2: a ride. She gives Abby and Libby a ride to 173 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: the trailhead at one thirty in the afternoon, drops them off. Now, 174 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 2: they had made arrangements to be picked up between three 175 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 2: thirty and four o'clock by Libby's dad, and they go 176 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: to the park and at three thirty he's calling Libby's phone. 177 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 2: Abby didn't have a phone, Libby did. He's calling Libby 178 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 2: and getting no answer. Round three thirty, he calls several times, 179 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 2: gets no answer. He calls Libby's grandma, Becky Patty not 180 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: getting up with Libby. What's going on? You know? Do 181 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 2: I miscommunicate something, do I not understand? And that's the 182 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 2: first sign that they have trouble. And so they're like, well, 183 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 2: they try everything they can, but they're just not there. 184 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 2: So Becky calls Mike at work. He's getting ready to 185 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 2: get off work anyway, and she says, hey, Libby didn't 186 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 2: come back yet. And now everybody thinks at this point 187 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 2: in time, because we're really dealing with they got dropped 188 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 2: off around one thirty. It's now three thirty. You know, 189 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 2: nobody's panic stricken. Yet it's just not like these two 190 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 2: girls to not do what they say they're going to 191 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 2: do and be where they say they're going to be. 192 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 2: So they all gathered and started looking. It didn't take long. 193 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: We're talking by four thirty, five o'clock that afternoon, they 194 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 2: were talking to police. This now has gone from they 195 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 2: didn't get to where they were supposed to be to 196 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 2: they are nowhere to be found, and it's going to 197 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: get dark soon. They're trying to get up with Abby's mother, 198 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 2: Anna Williams, and she's at her second job. This is 199 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: a single mom working two gigs. And think about that 200 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 2: for a minute. You're Libby, and you're Libby and Abby's 201 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 2: parents and grandparents, and you know, Abby's mom is at work, 202 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,599 Speaker 2: Libby's grandma is trying to call her. You know, you 203 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 2: got to get them involved. Hey, they're missing. By five o'clock, 204 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 2: they are no longer just late for being where they're 205 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 2: supposed to be picked up. They are missing Joe and 206 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 2: everybody in the park. And I thought about this the 207 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: other day. I was listening as we've been covering the 208 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 2: trial on the Nancy Gray Show. I was pulling a 209 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: lot of our shows over the last several years on 210 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 2: this with the Mike and Becky Patty. Actually, they did 211 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 2: a show with Nancy Grace at Crime con in Nashville 212 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: and had the chance to listen to them sharing their 213 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 2: thoughts moment by moment. And it's like any other parent 214 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 2: or grandparent responsible for a child. The only difference is 215 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 2: we know how it ended. Becky and Mike, Patty, Anna 216 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:57,479 Speaker 2: Williams and all their friends, neighbors, Sheriff's department, police, everybody 217 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: hit that park. They walked up and down the creek. 218 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 2: They went north, they went south, they went east and west, 219 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 2: and did not find the girls. Finally they had to 220 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 2: call off the search because it was dark. It was 221 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 2: late at night, and by then you know it's bad. 222 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: Yeah it is. And you know how I was mentioned 223 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: mentioning just a few months ago this kind of intimate 224 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: knowledge that you would have of what's going on in 225 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: this area by all counts in this case, this bridge, 226 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: in this walking area out there, you don't know that 227 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: this thing exists. It's like if you and I hopped 228 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: in our car and we decided to drive up Delphi, 229 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 1: Indiana right now. First off, we'd have to get directions, 230 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: and Delphi is not like immediately adjacent to some big 231 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: I don't know, metropolitan area. I guess if you want 232 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: to go to metropolitan area, maybe Indianapolis. But it's poke. 233 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: It's like Delpha is one of those places that you 234 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: only wind up there because that's your destination. You don't 235 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 1: wind up there by accident. I'm not saying that in 236 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 1: a disparaging way. I'm saying it actually kind of in 237 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: a complimentary way, because it's one of those places that 238 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,719 Speaker 1: if you live there and you love it, you don't 239 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: want anybody else to know about it. And so that 240 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: goes to this location up there with this bridge. You 241 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: think about how isolated it is, all the little nooks 242 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: and crannies. You've got Deer Creek that runs right below 243 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: that railroad trestle that's out there. You can see for 244 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: yards and yards remembers. These trees had not greened up yet. 245 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: We were still in wintertime, Dave, and you're looking around. 246 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: You've got a vision for some distance out there. But 247 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: in order to negotiate just the topography out there, this 248 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: is not a place that you would want to go 249 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: into and not understand the lay of the land. It's 250 00:14:55,760 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: my opinion that whoever perpetrated these murders murders had intimate 251 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: knowledge of this location. I'd be willing to bet with 252 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: anybody that and plainly state that the most critical moment 253 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: in any investigation. It's not necessarily the awareness that you've 254 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: lost someone, but it's when you find them and you 255 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: find what remains of them, because it's at that moment 256 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: that you have a primary crime scene. Primary is different 257 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: than secondary and certainly different than tertiary because it's contained 258 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: within that spot most of the data that you're going 259 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: to need to forensically assess an event, and certainly an 260 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: event like this Dave, that is so very complex. If 261 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: you begin to think about the authorities in Delphi, I 262 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: don't fault them a lot. And this is why, because 263 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: it's really easy to look back and say, well, this 264 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: is what should have happened. You're talking about two they're young, granted, 265 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, but you're talking about two young girls who 266 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: have now disappeared, and they and girls at this age, 267 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: boys too, can disappear for any number of reasons. You know, 268 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: kids threatening all the time, they're going to run off together. 269 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: You get two of them together and they begin to 270 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: talk about their lives or talk about troubles and that 271 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: sort of thing. They're like, listen, let's just go, let's 272 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: just go. We don't have anything. And of course they 273 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: were certainly underclothed. They didn't have anything as far as 274 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: material possessions would go, that they could sustain themselves on. 275 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: So I think that you can pretty much discount the 276 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: idea that they may have run off together. The reason 277 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: I'm saying this is that knowing what we know now, 278 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: you know you would want to call in, say like 279 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: you would want to call in somebody like an emergency 280 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: management personnel that could come in and organize a search. 281 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: You'd have it divided up into teams. You're going to 282 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 1: have a central point of communication where all this information 283 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: is going to be filtered. There'll be a team leader 284 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: for each one of the teams. No one move. If 285 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: you find something, it doesn't matter what it is, stop 286 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: plant yourself right there. We'll get to you. If it's evidence, 287 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: we'll process it right there. If it's a body, you damn, 288 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: we're better stay right there because we're going to have 289 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: to process that and we need to know precisely. It 290 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: sounds as though that it's it's the height of disorganization. 291 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: They're not thinking dead, is what I'm saying today. They're thinking, 292 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: we want to find these two girls. Are they out 293 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: here injured? But it's one Okay, It would be one 294 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: thing if we had one of these children that had 295 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,479 Speaker 1: slipped on a rock and fallen off of a cliff, 296 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: and you had the other one trying to trying to 297 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: rescue this child. The other child. Okay, maybe they're injured 298 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: and they're just trying to rescue them. What are the 299 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: odds that you're going to have two one two girls 300 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: that are slaughtered? You know, it completely puts it in 301 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: a different light at that point in time, and I 302 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: think that, you know, I would imagine that when the 303 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:36,439 Speaker 1: bodies are finally discovered, that they had this kind of 304 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: epiphanal moment where they knew that they were dealing with 305 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: something that is far beyond their scope of what they 306 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 1: would normally what they would normally deal with. 307 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 2: Dave, Well, you're dealing with a very small area, as 308 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: you just mentioned, very small. You know, we're talking one 309 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,479 Speaker 2: hundred and twenty five miles south of Chicago about seventy 310 00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 2: five miles north west of Indianapolis. Indianapolis, they had to 311 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 2: go to Fort Wayne, Indiana, one hundred miles away to 312 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 2: get jurors for this case. Just so you know. But 313 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 2: anyway back to let's get back to the day of 314 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 2: the day of, meaning the day they found the bodies. 315 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 2: We find two girls and they're slaughtered. We I mentioned, 316 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 2: you know now that we actually have our end trial. 317 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 2: We mentioned at the very top of the show. I 318 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: learned so much yesterday listening to the autopsy of what 319 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 2: was said when the girls were found, Joe. They were 320 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 2: not found like huddled together attacked by an animal or 321 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 2: a four legged animal. The girls were actually found with 322 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 2: their clothes. 323 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: One. 324 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 2: Abby was closed. Libby was nude. Libby had blood all 325 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 2: over her body. Abby was clothed, but not with just 326 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 2: her clothes. Her pants were wet and she was wearing 327 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 2: some of Libby's clothing. Clothing was found in the river 328 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 2: in the creek in Deer Creek, and it was inside 329 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 2: out and all wet, and there was a sign of 330 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 2: blood and injury at the neck on Abbey, but she 331 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 2: didn't have blood all over her like Libby did. Yeah, 332 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 2: and that's just the outward glance from the sheriff's deputy 333 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 2: who actually was there first on the scene, who stopped 334 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 2: every You know, he didn't touch, he didn't do anything. 335 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 2: He did what you said, stop what you're doing and 336 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 2: guard this with your life, which is what he did. 337 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 1: Which is what he's supposed to do. He's the gatekeeper 338 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: at that point in time. Nothing else in, nothing else out. 339 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: And if you have witnesses, yeah, I mean we would 340 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: call searchers witnesses if they are finders, okay, because they 341 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: are a witness to the fact at hand. And the 342 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: fact at hand is at that primary scene where you 343 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: have two deceased individuals. What did you see when you 344 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: first rolled up, because that is a snapshot in time 345 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: for that moment. 346 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 2: Tom, let me ask you something very quickly, Joe. You 347 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: could you just mention that it was an older gentleman 348 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 2: who actually found them first. Yep, and being older, he 349 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 2: knew they were dead, yes, and out of respect he 350 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 2: turned his back. 351 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 352 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, I heard this and stood five feet away and 353 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 2: waited for police, waited for somebody official to show up 354 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,719 Speaker 2: so he could leave. But I thought, in that moment 355 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 2: he did the one thing you know that you should 356 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 2: do don't touch, don't mess with anything, because everything is evidence. 357 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 2: And so you and I did a show the other 358 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 2: day where you talked about jury duty and yeah, how 359 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 2: shocking it is. You don't know what you're getting into. 360 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 2: And I thought about that when I was going over 361 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 2: this man's testimony of his shock all these years later, 362 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 2: you know. 363 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, and at heartbreaking because you know, he didn't how 364 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: do I phrase this, He didn't ask for this. He 365 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: was going out and looking for two missing. 366 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 2: Girls trying to help find him. 367 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, do the calculus on that. And what you know, 368 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: you said, he's an older gentleman, and you have to think, 369 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: you know, well, what in the world is he ever 370 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 1: going to be divested of that memory? And he's not. 371 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: It's something he'll carry with him for the rest of 372 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: his life. And he bore witness to it. And I 373 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: got to tell you the fact that he did better 374 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: actually on one level than some uniformed police officers I've 375 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 1: come across in the past where they feel this, they're 376 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: compelled to want to go in and touch the body, 377 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: you know, search the body for you know, ID and 378 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: all this sort of thing, which is completely forebod And 379 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: if you've got a death and you're waiting for the 380 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: medical examiner to get there. You never touch the body. 381 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: The fact that he had the restraint and the forethought 382 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: to in his own way he was securing the scene. 383 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure he would have torn into anybody 384 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: that would have walked up and said, hey, which guy there? 385 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: He would have said, wait, you stand back one second, 386 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: we found him, you just stand over there. And then 387 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: he turned his back because he couldn't bear to look 388 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: at it, and why should he have to. But he 389 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: did the job that you would want a police officer, 390 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: uniform police officer to actually do, to secure it, to 391 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: lock it down, and to not move from that location. 392 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: And you know it's going to be you know that testimony. 393 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: And one of the things that that makes that testimony 394 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: so powerful other than the fact that that you know it, 395 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: you know, because the other part to this that that 396 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 1: I wanted to reveal is that he you know, he 397 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 1: began to tear up. You know. Still it's still stings 398 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: like that. So we know that he had eyes on front. First, 399 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: He's going to be the best representation of what was 400 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: out there at that moment time. We know that this 401 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,479 Speaker 1: has burned into his memory, so any amount of recall 402 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: that he might have. He's truly a person of fact 403 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: at this and you want a factual witness here, and boy, 404 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: this is bottom line right here. He's the one that 405 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: found him, He's the one that took care of him 406 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: for that period of time. 407 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: When law enforcement arrives at the scene of a situation 408 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 2: like this, are they expected to touch, feel, and determine 409 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 2: that no life saving measures should be taken? 410 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, they are, I think to a certain degree. There 411 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: are certain cases, particularly if you've got obvious sons of decomposition, 412 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: there's no point in it. You know, why risk it? 413 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: I mean, you can obviously see and even young officers 414 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: understand understand some of the basics of postmortem changes in 415 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,919 Speaker 1: human remains. They understand that to a certain degree. And 416 00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: so the fact that you would want just one person 417 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: if they're going to do an assessment to assess the bodies, 418 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 1: the preference would be if you have an EMT there, 419 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 1: because you can it's easier to justify an EMT checking 420 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: for signs of life if you have one available, because 421 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: that is specifically their job. And I know that police 422 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: do this regularly. But you know, once they've made their 423 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: initial assessment, when it might be as simple as just 424 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: trying to palpate for a pulse. But how are you 425 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: going to do that because the first place EMTs normally 426 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 1: don't go go for the risk, to go for the neck. 427 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: And what did you say, just a moment ago, You've 428 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: got an area you know that has been so insulted 429 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: that it's crusted with blood. You couldn't do that assessment 430 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: or you know, any right thinking MT would look look 431 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: at the situation and know that this person is beyond 432 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: hope at this point in time. So yeah, you would 433 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: want to assess a body to that point. You're looking 434 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: for what are referred to as the cardinal signs of death. 435 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: There's like seven of them, and one of them is, uh, 436 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: there's no pulse, there's no respirations, that's just you know, 437 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: one slash two of the of the cardinal signs of death. 438 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: There's been so many questions all these years. You know 439 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: later you know, and uh, I've often had thoughts about 440 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: this case, and it would it kind of rises to 441 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 1: the top for me every single time. I've never I've 442 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: never I've appeared on news shows about it, but I've 443 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: never done a bodybacks episode. And there's a specific reason 444 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: I haven't. It's because I've been so tied into this 445 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: case for so long. I wanted to wait. I wanted 446 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 1: to wait because some of the biggest questions I always 447 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: had circled or evolved around the forensics, and for so 448 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: long we really didn't know anything. They played it so 449 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: close to the vast day, but just with the trial 450 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: opening up, you know, just a few days ago. Now 451 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: we're as we're chatting now, I finally feel like I'm 452 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: in a place where I would like to talk about 453 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: it and kind of explore it a little bit. 454 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 2: To back up very quickly, that bridge, the Monin high 455 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 2: Bridge that they were walking on earlier that we have 456 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 2: the snapchat video from. I didn't realize how high up 457 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 2: it was. I didn't realize how decrepit that thing was. 458 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 2: It's a danger It's a dangerous place to be walking. 459 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it seems to me like that would be 460 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 1: the best place to have a crosswalk that went beneath 461 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 1: the bridge and you could look up at the bridge 462 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: and view it. This thing is still open for people 463 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: to walk across. I've often and this is nothing I've 464 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: wondered Dave over the years since this thing has been opened. 465 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: How many people have fallen off of it? You know, 466 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,239 Speaker 1: because that is that that is a lethal fall. You know, 467 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: you're seeing I feed up. Yeah. Yeah, that's enough to 468 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 1: kill the most hearty of us. And the fact that 469 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: people could still walk across this thing is amazing to me. 470 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 1: You know, every time I see that frozen image of 471 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: Abby walking, She's got her hands, her little hands in 472 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 1: the pockets that gray sweatshirt, and she's looking you know, 473 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: she's looking down, you know, in that freeze frame that 474 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 1: they have for her. And the reason I think she's 475 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: looking down is she wants to make sure she's putting 476 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: her feet in the right place, because it's terrifying to me. 477 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: I would not want to do it, you know. I 478 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: wouldn't do it. If I had a safety harness. 479 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 2: Couldn't do it. I would be like that little kid 480 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 2: and stand by me on all fo Yeah, crawling. 481 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: On a cross ties, Yeah I would too, you know, 482 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: shouting trains, Yeah, you know, and uh, yeah I would too. 483 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think I could do it. But 484 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: it goes to the nature of the isolation in this place. 485 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 2: It also goes back to you said you mentioned it 486 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 2: earlier about knowing knowing what day it was, the kids 487 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 2: were out of school. It was a Monday out of school, 488 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 2: and you would actually have to have a specific reason 489 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 2: to be on that bridge. In this case, Libya and 490 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 2: Abbey did. They were going out there being little girls, 491 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 2: being you know, teens, and out there walking around taking 492 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: pictures and doing that. Yeah, where their bodies were found 493 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 2: relative to being on top. I think about being on 494 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 2: top of the bridge at that age of just you 495 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 2: know how when you're thirteen and fourteen and now you're 496 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 2: looking at everything and you're off school for the day 497 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 2: or with your best friend. I mean, my gosh, that 498 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 2: just had to have been the greatest day. 499 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yes, it's incredibly great day. And you know 500 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: you're done with all the fetters of home and school 501 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: and all those things. It's where your mind can, you know, 502 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: kind of be freed up. And who would know, you know, 503 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: who would ever have suspected that you would have an 504 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: animal that would show up? You know? And I mean 505 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: that in most sincereous terms, whoever did this was an 506 00:29:55,120 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: animal perpetrating of this crime. But back to this earlier 507 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: comment that you made Dave about the crime scene. When 508 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: you begin to think about that. You know how I've 509 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: heard the crime scene described over and over again now 510 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: and it keeps turning up because it was mentioned in 511 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: trial is to keep using termed football field, And actually, 512 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: can I tell you I take some comfort in the 513 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: fact that they identified it that way and that's a 514 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: big area it is. I want it to be big. 515 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: I want any kind of crime scene that you're working. 516 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: This is the rule of thumb for us in forensics. 517 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: You can always start off at the most distal location 518 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: you can think of. If you have again, I'll go 519 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: back to my wagon wheel analogy, with the bodies being 520 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: the hub of the wagon wheel and everything else radiating 521 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: out from them. There's a reason why they give you 522 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: a badge and authority. You set the parameters of that 523 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: crime scene and you push it out as far as 524 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: you can. So the rationale is is that once you've 525 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: set up the tape, you've created a barrier there. You've 526 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: captured what you believe. Now, there can always be other 527 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 1: items found, okay, but you begin to consider the area 528 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: that you're in. This is not like being in a structure. 529 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: You're outdoors, which is a major headache. You can always 530 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,719 Speaker 1: set those outer parameters, but you can always contract it. 531 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: You cannot start with a small space and then expand 532 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: outward because once you get people fiddling around outside the tape, 533 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: and even if you don't have people fiddling around, the 534 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: defense can say that they were there at least imply it. 535 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: So once you've established those boundaries, you know, relative to 536 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: the tape what you're saying, the authorities are saying, Okay, 537 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,959 Speaker 1: this is my side, that your side that goes to 538 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: the general public in media, you can be on that 539 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: side of the tape because out there we're identifying this 540 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: as not having as much as of importance as within 541 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: the tape. So the reason you want to start off really, 542 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: really big is that you're going to be able to, 543 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: you know the old adage about cast wide net catch 544 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: a lot of fish. You capture everything you can, and 545 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: then if you need to contract it and say it's 546 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: cumbersome and you know that there's nothing else of value out, 547 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: say let's bring hey, guys, let's bring it in twenty 548 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: feet now. And so you begin this contracting that takes 549 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: place at seeing. The worst possible scenario is that you 550 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: start there and you put up a perimeter that literally 551 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: only extends out from the body maybe twenty feet in 552 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 1: a big area like this, and you haven't assessed everything 553 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: else around it. That's a nightmare because if you get 554 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: people walking up and you've established that boundary, the defense 555 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: can say, well, you know, this cigarette but has nothing 556 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: to do with with my you know, with my defendant. 557 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: There were people outside the tape that could have dropped 558 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,479 Speaker 1: it there or spent casing, which plays into the I 559 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: mean I spent not a spent but an ejected live round, 560 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: which plays into this. And of course that was found. 561 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: You're the body, but what if you find another one 562 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: and it's outside the tape? So you want to extend 563 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: this out as far as you can and then contract. 564 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 2: Okay, how do you establish that? I mean, we've got 565 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 2: two bodies and we're looking. I mean, do you actually 566 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 2: physically stand there and start looking around to see where 567 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 2: you can find blood in the grass? 568 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: Really, you're gonna you're gonna do Yeah, You're going to 569 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: do a search. You're going to get as many eyes 570 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: on as you can. There needs to be a leader. 571 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: You're going to go out in teams of people looking 572 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: where you're putting your feet. I doubt that everybody out 573 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: there had shoe covers on and hair covers and all 574 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: of that sort of thing. But you know, you're chomping 575 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: through the woods and you're trying to establish how far 576 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: out do we put this outer marker and then you 577 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: have accountability for it. Okay, it's at this point in time, 578 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: and you will see this in a report. It was 579 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: at this point time that we established that that the 580 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: outer boundary of the crime scene was going to extend 581 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: out one hundred feet from the bodies, and we put 582 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: up tape. Then we set security at this point, this point, 583 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: this point, the point we have a single point of entry. 584 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: We have somebody keeping a name of an entry log, 585 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,959 Speaker 1: which you're supposed to You have one point of egress. 586 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: That way you can, I mean, everything is done through 587 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 1: that one entry point. You never go anywhere else to enter, 588 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: you don't, you know how you see in the in 589 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: movies and whatnot, people will lift up tape and walk 590 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: underneath it and do it in random spots. It's not 591 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 1: the way you handle it. The way you handle it 592 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: is one central point of entry and you walk on 593 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: the same path every time, and that way you're not 594 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: going in there. Hair them, scare them, with no accountability 595 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,720 Speaker 1: for where people are putting their feet or kicking around. 596 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: One of the worst feelings you can ever have is 597 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: a crime scene investigator, and this applies to if you're 598 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 1: working a scene in a parking lot, is to hear 599 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 1: that metal tink tink tink rolling across a parking lot 600 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,800 Speaker 1: and you didn't realize you just kicked a spent shell 601 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: casing because you weren't paying attention and you didn't put 602 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: an evidence marker there. I've done it. I've stepped on 603 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: them before and ground them into the earth. And you 604 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: have to try to examine the area in total. You 605 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: want to have the best lighting situation you can. And 606 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: once you establish that tape, this is the only point 607 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: that everybody's entering. Right here, we're keeping a log of 608 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: everybody it's walking in and out of this area, So 609 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: that's very essential. 610 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 2: They said it was one hundred you know, side of 611 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 2: a football field. 612 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:19,479 Speaker 1: Yeah. 613 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:25,439 Speaker 2: Now, starting at the bodies and going out, they saw 614 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 2: clothing and shoes in the in the creek in Deer Creek. 615 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 2: So I get it that that would be part of it, 616 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 2: But would you consider the creek also part because you've 617 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 2: got clothing there with the creek and the direction of 618 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 2: what would that also be included in your crime scene. 619 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're going to be walking up and down that 620 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 1: creek bank law enforcement at this point in time. Now, 621 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: you're not going to have civilians out there. 622 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, they shut civilians down right as soon as we 623 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 2: got the bodies. 624 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: Everybody stopped as well as should because it's one thing 625 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: to go out to try to find bodies, okay, and 626 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,879 Speaker 1: we need people to help us find bodies. But once 627 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 1: the bodies have been found and it's no longer a rescue, 628 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: you hear this term all the time. This is no 629 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,360 Speaker 1: longer a rescued this is now a crime scene, all right, 630 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: And you'll hear that with mass shootings a lot, you know, 631 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: they'll say that sort of thing. So, yeah, in answer 632 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: to your question, brother, that creek you have to have 633 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: people that can put their waiters on okay, and step 634 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: down in that water and begin to because you know, 635 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: you get a completely different view of a creek if 636 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: you're in the middle of it and you're looking back 637 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: towards the banks as opposed to standing on a bank 638 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: and looking down into the creek. There's all kinds of locations. 639 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: You know, you've got roots that are growing out from trees, 640 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,919 Speaker 1: that are immediately adjacent to creek banks, and they're they're 641 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: kind of descending into the water. You never know what's 642 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: going to get caught up in here. And so there 643 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: were items of clothes found found in the creek. But 644 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: in addition to that, you begin to think about in 645 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: you know, kind of this I don't want to say, 646 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 1: you know, necessarily two dimensional world. But Libby's shirt was 647 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 1: found tossed up in a tree, this tight I shirt. 648 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: So you think about security of a crime scene, does 649 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 1: the parameters of a crime scene go up as well? 650 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: You know, you have to look everywhere. You're not just 651 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 1: gonna look at your eye level. You have to look up, 652 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: you have to look down, you have to get in 653 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,760 Speaker 1: the creek, walk in the creek, look at anything, because, 654 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: let's face it, if you're first off, I'm very surprised 655 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: the bodies weren't placed in the creek, okay, because it 656 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 1: would seem that that's one of the most the quickest 657 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,720 Speaker 1: way to get rid of any kind of physical evidence. 658 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: You know, water destroys everything eventually, and there's movement. So 659 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: you've got people searching one area, you got the bodies 660 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: that may flow downstream, and they're gonna be out there 661 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 1: and you're gonna have there would be a lot less 662 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: to work with. But the one saving grace is this 663 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 1: is horrible, but the remains were actually placed and I 664 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: think posed in this one location in particular. That was 665 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: a saving grace here. But you've got somebody that's pitching 666 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 1: evidence into a moving body of water. Who lord only 667 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: knows how far this thing extends or what else could 668 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,240 Speaker 1: have been placed in there. Maybe this perpetrator had something 669 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: with them that they wanted to get that was a 670 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,120 Speaker 1: personal line of them. They tossed it over there. You know. 671 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 1: One of the things I've always thought about was, for instance, 672 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: we've had you know, we've been covering the case for 673 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 1: a while now with Nancy, and we've had a lot 674 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: of forensic psychologists that have been on the air with us, 675 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 1: and you know, it doesn't you don't have to have 676 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 1: sex to make it a sexual assault, okay. And a 677 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: prime example of that is that you will have people 678 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 1: that will murder, they will have a twisted desire for someone, 679 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,800 Speaker 1: in this case, two children, and once they kill them, 680 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 1: they're not going to have sex with them necessarily, because 681 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, we have found out that there's not evidence 682 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: of sexual assault, at least that's what the forensic pathologist 683 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: is saying, But that doesn't mean it's not sexually related. 684 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,919 Speaker 1: And this is what I'm saying about the creek. If 685 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 1: that's the case, If this guy had mastpatory fantasies where 686 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,760 Speaker 1: he's posing the bodies almost like they're in a movie 687 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 1: or like in a girly magazine or something like this. 688 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: As discussing as this is, and forgive me, but he 689 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 1: could stand there and masturbate, catch a semen, maybe in 690 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: a tissue or maybe even in his hand, walk over 691 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 1: to the creek, and deposit that tissue and it's gone. 692 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,320 Speaker 1: There's no evidence of any kind of DNA deposition relative 693 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: to seminal fluid, So it's gone, you know, in that moment. 694 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: And who you know, who's to say? You know that 695 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: an individual like this wouldn't want to go back out 696 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: there and do this over and over again, because you know, 697 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 1: we've got many people on record over the years that 698 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,280 Speaker 1: have killed people and pose their bodies and then gone 699 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: back out and had these fantasies. I hate to always 700 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,760 Speaker 1: go back to this guy, but you know, this satan 701 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: spawn of bt K, he did this regularly. You know, 702 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: he would fantasize over over these you know, over these 703 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: poor people that he victimized over the years. I will 704 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: say this plainly. We're in the middle of the trial 705 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: right now, but I felt compelled to go ahead and 706 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,240 Speaker 1: lay this down for Bodybacks and for all our friends 707 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 1: out there. I wanted this to kind of orient ourselves. 708 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,919 Speaker 1: And I make you this promise. I make it to you, David, 709 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: I make it to all of our friends out there. 710 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: As the case continues to develop, we will be back 711 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,399 Speaker 1: with another episode of Body Backs, and when the case 712 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 1: is concluded again, we will come back with a final 713 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,399 Speaker 1: assessment of the case, regardless of the outcome, because this 714 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,760 Speaker 1: is the thing that has been bothering us all for years. 715 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: It's the thing that we want all of the answers for. 716 00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: But now we've laid the foundation. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 717 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: and this is Bodybags.