Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to Season three, seventeen, Episode
Speaker 1: two of Guys Yeah, production of iHeart Radio. This is
Speaker 1: a podcast where we take a deep dive into America's
Speaker 1: share consciousness. And it's Tuesday, December twelfth, twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, to do twelve. You know what that means.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's National Ambrosia Day for you people, Marsh Salad,
Speaker 3: It's National point Setia Day. It's nation it's the International
Speaker 3: Universal Health Coverage Day. Yeah, we fuck with that National
Speaker 3: dingling Day. I do have no clue what the fuck
Speaker 3: that is. And Ginger Bread has to pay street. No,
Speaker 3: it's got a picture of Sade like on the phone.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, it's a data call people that you
Speaker 3: haven't heard.
Speaker 2: From in a while. All right, well yeah, why not?
Speaker 2: You know, just check in. It's called yeah, check in
Speaker 2: on Sandy. He's only up there in the whole year.
Speaker 1: Nobody ever follow me. That's why Jim Allen, what's such
Speaker 1: an asshole?
Speaker 2: Right? No one asks what he wants for christ?
Speaker 1: Well, my name's Jack O'Brien aka sucking around this candy cane.
Speaker 1: Why don't this taste like shit? Peppermint candy should be
Speaker 1: out loud and I will fight about it. This courtesy
Speaker 1: of a Segar Full twelve twenty nine E Seegarfu Yeah,
Speaker 1: E C careful anyways to the tune of rocket around
Speaker 1: the Candy Cane or rocking around the Christmas Tree. About
Speaker 1: the weird phenomenon of being able to use a peppermint
Speaker 1: stick as a straw in an orange. I don't trust it.
Speaker 1: I'm going to try it out intrigue Miles when I'm
Speaker 1: thrilled to be joined as always by my co host,
Speaker 1: mister Miles Grass.
Speaker 4: It's Miles Ray.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's the Lord of Lancasham shouting out his very
Speaker 3: old Los Angeles Bracers who have won the n season
Speaker 3: NBA Tournament.
Speaker 2: Such a fantastic victory for us.
Speaker 3: Also shout out to the Dodgers for bringing me one
Speaker 3: step closer to be Not only am I Hideo NoHo,
Speaker 3: but I am now show Hey Smoke Tany because he's
Speaker 3: also wearing the Dodger blue coming up. So it's just
Speaker 3: a very very exciting time to be an Angelino and
Speaker 3: and sports fan and and fair Weather as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, well, we are thrilled to be joined in
Speaker 1: our third seat by an award winning journalist who's worked
Speaker 1: for places like The Washington Post, in the La Times,
Speaker 1: the Financial Times of London. It's also the author of
Speaker 1: the books The Jakarta Method, Washington's Anti Communist Crusade, and
Speaker 1: The Mass Murder Program That Shaped Our World and more
Speaker 1: recently If We Burn, the Mass Protest Decade and The
Speaker 1: Missing Revolution. Please welcome to the show, Vincent.
Speaker 4: Bebe Hell, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Thanks for doing that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's tomorrow. Really National ambrogiade? Is that a real
Speaker 4: thing to do? Yeah?
Speaker 2: No, it's legit. There's an entire website that just has
Speaker 2: every day there's something nonsensical or of deep consequence.
Speaker 3: Yes, the same time, Yeah, exactly, runs the gamut from
Speaker 3: sensical to deeply nonsense, deeply nonsensey Yeah, but yeah, Like.
Speaker 1: Mainly it's consumer groups. Corporate groups are lobbyists just naming
Speaker 1: something a day to yeah, give themselves a reason to
Speaker 1: collect a paycheck. Exactly, exactly, the bullshit economy thrives. We
Speaker 1: like to cover the bullshit economy as much as possible.
Speaker 1: And you're coming to us from London.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm in London.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 4: We've heard Los Angeles by the end of the year
Speaker 4: for you know, home for the holidays, but I'm currently
Speaker 4: in the United Kingdom.
Speaker 2: Is that where you? Is that your home base at
Speaker 2: the moment.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it has been. I mean I've been on the
Speaker 4: road like actually for years for the second book, between
Speaker 4: South Paulo and London often, but I'm like at the
Speaker 4: end of this book tour, I've yeah, resettled into London
Speaker 4: for a bit.
Speaker 2: Cool.
Speaker 1: Cool, And you've been at some of the protests in
Speaker 1: London for you know, Palestinian rights and survival and.
Speaker 3: Depending where you get your news, I heard it was
Speaker 3: a pro homans.
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, I kind of yeah, yeah, I've been. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I've been at the protest weekly here, like not far
Speaker 4: from from from where I am now. Yeah, absolutely, and
Speaker 4: like uh absolutely that presentation they tried it here certainly.
Speaker 4: I mean the government here is quite committed to demonizing
Speaker 4: anyone like to the left of I don't know, Joe
Speaker 4: Biden even or even to the left of Richuye Snak.
Speaker 4: So yeah, there was there was quite a big narrative
Speaker 4: that was either antient, like mostly anti Semitic, or quite
Speaker 4: about supporting Hamas. And then when I went there, you know,
Speaker 4: even though I should have known better, I even kind
Speaker 4: of expected to see some elements maybe there are out there,
Speaker 4: but what I found was like quite a lot of
Speaker 4: families and kids, and.
Speaker 1: Quite like if they're out there, they'll find there.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: No, That's something that's kind of what I've been working on,
Speaker 4: is that you can if the if a protest is
Speaker 4: large enough, you can usually find an element in the crowd.
Speaker 4: You can usually find a fact to support your narrative
Speaker 4: if you look hard enough.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And sometimes the narrative will be, you know, anti Semitism,
Speaker 1: and sometimes it'll be they just like really fuck with America.
Speaker 1: They just want to like be America, just like whatever
Speaker 1: honors their preconceived notions coming.
Speaker 4: In this This rises to the top quite almost all
Speaker 4: the time. Usually when you signed a cadre of US
Speaker 4: based or correspondence for the US media to cover some
Speaker 4: uprising in some part of the world, someone will see
Speaker 4: a desire to become junior like the League America, which
Speaker 4: often like shocked and horrified some of the actual people
Speaker 4: that I met that put together protest movements in the
Speaker 4: last fifteen years. But it almost always happens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, so we're going to talk about a
Speaker 1: lot of that stuff. Your second book is an amazing
Speaker 1: read and you know, really touches on a lot of
Speaker 1: the stuff that we talk to talk about on a
Speaker 1: regular basis on this show. But before we get to
Speaker 1: any of it, we do like to get to know
Speaker 1: our guests a little bit better and to ask you
Speaker 1: what is something from your search history that is revealing
Speaker 1: about who you are?
Speaker 4: So this one is a bit too obvious because it
Speaker 4: is kind of like quite on brand. But the only
Speaker 4: thing that I searched for today on Google other than
Speaker 4: how to look at your own Google search history in
Speaker 4: preparation to answer that question is Melay inauguration. I wanted
Speaker 4: to see the ways in which the new president of
Speaker 4: Argentina had been covered by the English language press. He
Speaker 4: took power yesterday. He wanted to see what he had done,
Speaker 4: how sort of controversial he tried to be at the
Speaker 4: ceremony and what people picked up on from that, from
Speaker 4: that takeover.
Speaker 1: And what would you find?
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, he's like a super hyper anti political guy.
Speaker 4: Do you know about the guy that I'm talking about?
Speaker 4: He has cyberns, He's an anarcho capital. He's like a
Speaker 4: real resident Reddit president. If readit became a president. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's the first Reddit republic. I think Argentina starting twenty
Speaker 4: twenty three, and he toned down things a little bit yesterday.
Speaker 4: He tried to do you know, I think he's trying
Speaker 4: to figure out wha to actually govern the country, whereas
Speaker 4: his campaign was really about I'm going to destroy the
Speaker 4: state entirely. We're going to get rid of the pace,
Speaker 4: so we're going to bring in the dollar. I've cloned
Speaker 4: all of my dogs and they, you know, they speak
Speaker 4: to me. He tried. I think he tried to turn
Speaker 4: it down a little bit. He did say that it's
Speaker 4: not yeah, I just a dog.
Speaker 3: He had so many videos that were like felt like
Speaker 3: low rate, like TikToker type shit, where he's like this
Speaker 3: fucking bureaucracy done gone, I'm tearing it up physically for you,
Speaker 3: and you're like, wow, okay, very well.
Speaker 4: His thing was the chainsaw, right, like I'm gonna bring it.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna take a chain saw. And it's like you
Speaker 4: know in in South America that has a lot of
Speaker 4: cons you know, there's like the destruction of the Amazon,
Speaker 4: which is a big thing that his friend Girable scenario
Speaker 4: was all about helping to get done. So that was
Speaker 4: this thing, Yeah, I'm gonna I'm going to destroy the
Speaker 4: state and then obviously and then what will grow out
Speaker 4: of the rubble will be some amazing capitalist utopia, right.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, just destroy everything and then let the magic happen.
Speaker 1: Also kind of a logic that I think people on
Speaker 1: both sides have engaged and that you talk about in
Speaker 1: your book.
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's a nice it's a nice it's an
Speaker 4: appealing I mean, he's yeah, it's an appealing theory, right,
Speaker 4: I mean, this is another thing that he said. He's like, oh,
Speaker 4: this is like the uh my election is like the
Speaker 4: follow the Soviet Union, which is like, again, that was
Speaker 4: the idea. You know, there was the there was the
Speaker 4: glorious moment that was broadcast to the world like the
Speaker 4: day of the brilliant well fell. But then what a
Speaker 4: lot of people actually went through afterwards was that democracy
Speaker 4: and markets didn't just grow out of nowhere. Things. Things
Speaker 4: turned out to be quite difficult for quite a lot
Speaker 4: of people afterwards. So you know, that thinking it's you know,
Speaker 4: it's it's a feeling, the idea that all you have
Speaker 4: to do is smash everything up in some magical force
Speaker 4: will will provide the solution. But it just doesn't tend
Speaker 4: to work out that.
Speaker 3: Way, right, because the thing I got for just at
Speaker 3: least from like gleaning the headlines, sounded like him just
Speaker 3: basically saying like here comes austerity. Yeah that was great,
Speaker 3: but he's like, there's going to be some hard times,
Speaker 3: like cause I'm it's fuck, it's it's austerity time, baby.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean things are bad. I mean things are
Speaker 4: right for someone like him, right, right, the inflation is
Speaker 4: very high in Argentina. You could see why an anti
Speaker 4: political sort of attack on the system kind of I'm
Speaker 4: an outsider candidate might be able to do well. But yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean it's absolutely going to be awful. I mean,
Speaker 4: even I think is I don't think. I don't think
Speaker 4: he knows exactly how it's going to go, and neither's anybody.
Speaker 1: Else, right, is anti like because obviously, you know, your
Speaker 1: book covers a anti establishment impulse that we saw sweep
Speaker 1: around the globe. We have covered a lot just that
Speaker 1: that impulse in the United States. The fact that, you know,
Speaker 1: the Trump presidency kind of came about because Bannon saw
Speaker 1: an impulse that was like somebody's gonna win. Who's not
Speaker 1: the who is like railing against institutions? Right, How do
Speaker 1: you like, do you see that kind of continuing, unabated
Speaker 1: picking up steam. How do you think about that? I
Speaker 1: know that's a kind of a big question, and we'll
Speaker 1: get into more specific permutations of it.
Speaker 4: But well, the way that this is gone on a
Speaker 4: case by case basis, and I hope this doesn't have
Speaker 4: to be the pattern that every single political community in
Speaker 4: the entire world goes through, is that someone gets elected
Speaker 4: that says, I'm going to tear down the whole system.
Speaker 4: I'm against everything. I'm an outsider and like I'm from California.
Speaker 4: Like Arnold Schwarzeninger was one of these, you know, he's
Speaker 4: one of them, you know, way ahead of the curve
Speaker 4: on this one, and it was a ha ha haa,
Speaker 4: we're voting Arnold Schwarsinger.
Speaker 5: Ha ha ha.
Speaker 4: Often what happens is that that person, unsurprisingly doesn't do
Speaker 4: a good job, and then they bring in the guy
Speaker 4: who like really knows how to actually do the job.
Speaker 4: So after Arnold Schwarzeninger, we get Jerry Brown, who's like
Speaker 4: actually from the seventies. After Bolsonaro and Brazil, you like
Speaker 4: bring back Lula, who was the last guy who finished
Speaker 4: the presidency with really high approval ratings. That's like tends
Speaker 4: to be. What happens in each case is that, oh yeah,
Speaker 4: it was really appealing this idea that being from outside
Speaker 4: the system, which is usually like half a lie, right,
Speaker 4: Like you're usually like you're encouraged not to pretend that
Speaker 4: you're really an outsider, even if you're not right. And
Speaker 4: then oh yeah, that's that's not actually how you govern.
Speaker 4: And then you replace that the anti political candidate, the
Speaker 4: anti political politician, with like the most establishment person you know,
Speaker 4: after Trump, you get you get Joe Biden, who's like
Speaker 4: the guy that Obama grabbed in two thousand and eight
Speaker 4: to put on his campaign to prove that he was
Speaker 4: kind of a regular Democrat, that he wasn't too wild, right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: But then again, but I think all of this anti
Speaker 4: political sentiment is like the wrong answer to a real question,
Speaker 4: which is why is it that everyone feels that governments
Speaker 4: don't represent them properly? Why is it that everyone wants
Speaker 4: to say fuck you to the system whenever they can?
Speaker 4: And that question I think still remains unanswered. So like
Speaker 4: the under the underlying crisis is still unresolved. But I
Speaker 4: think one by one, states or nations are realizing, Oh
Speaker 4: well this this response doesn't work right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just all getting the wrong the same wrong answer.
Speaker 4: Well, he lays a different type of wrong answer, like
Speaker 4: the enery capitalist approaches a relatively new one. Usually you
Speaker 4: got right populism or like dictatorship or like whatever Trump is,
Speaker 4: or dictatorship justification like in Posnaro, but like the really
Speaker 4: online like libertary meme. Guy, that's a new one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, hell yeah, it's gonna be hilarious. The walls are
Speaker 1: gonna be worth it alone.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, and ram with Swami didn't do too good because
Speaker 3: he was peeing on a hot mic over the weekend
Speaker 3: during like a Twitter spaces thing. So our our meme
Speaker 3: lord as president may not may not come to fruition
Speaker 3: this time around.
Speaker 2: Oh he did.
Speaker 1: He did a full naked gun a full piss.
Speaker 2: And they're like, uh, I don't think came back like
Speaker 2: oh so sorry, my bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a that's a true like as somebody who
Speaker 1: spends a lot of time on Zoom with air air
Speaker 1: pods and that's a constant nightmare of mind.
Speaker 2: Yeah that would happen.
Speaker 1: What oh no, what un what is something you think
Speaker 1: is overrated movies? Wow?
Speaker 4: Just generally, Yeah, moving picture, moving pictures. They don't why
Speaker 4: are pictures? Why are they moving?
Speaker 2: Make them stop?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 4: Thanks? Yeah, you know it's fine. They're fine, but had enough.
Speaker 4: I still I would give them some ratings, but they're
Speaker 4: they're overrated generally.
Speaker 2: What happened was the recent hurt?
Speaker 1: You?
Speaker 2: Who hurt? What was your most recent pain? Cinema?
Speaker 4: No, no pain. I have like a dull adult, like
Speaker 4: a dull feeling of pleasure when I think of them.
Speaker 4: But you know that's that's about it, right, right, right,
Speaker 4: which is a lower rating than society gives the movies.
Speaker 4: I think it's been great so far. I'm over, I'm done.
Speaker 1: We talk a lot about movies like filling in for
Speaker 1: people's like images of how things operate. Like when when
Speaker 1: you ask somebody to imagine a country they've never been to,
Speaker 1: they're generally going to be like, Okay, well I think
Speaker 1: I saw that in like George Clooney's Syriana, or you know,
Speaker 1: I don't think he directed that. But and you're somebody
Speaker 1: who has like been to you you go to those
Speaker 1: countries and like you know, learn the languages, yeah, and
Speaker 1: meet the people there? Is that? Do you think that's
Speaker 1: partially where it comes from. Or are you just like
Speaker 1: think they suck?
Speaker 4: No, I think they're okay. I've I mean to move
Speaker 4: this into a more serious territory now that you bring
Speaker 4: it and bring that up. I guess with this book,
Speaker 4: I did think a lot about technology and what is
Speaker 4: new and strange about the way that we live compared
Speaker 4: to whatever twenty years ago, and like a big narrative
Speaker 4: about the mass protest that I cover. And again this
Speaker 4: is not why I said movies. I'm just starting to
Speaker 4: think about it. Yeah, is that all its social media?
Speaker 4: Social media is a new technology. Social media is technology. Like,
Speaker 4: the more I considered what was going on in the
Speaker 4: last twenty years, I started to like think about photography
Speaker 4: as technology and like I'm pretty in the book. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: like I do it really quickly. But like in the
Speaker 4: history of humanity, it's pretty new that we're able to
Speaker 4: see stuff that's not happening like directly from Yeah, we're
Speaker 4: like photography. Definitionally, everything that you're seeing in a photograph
Speaker 4: or a moving picture isn't happening anymore, right, is it
Speaker 4: is a technological trick to reproduce the light patterns that
Speaker 4: makes the human brain think that they're seeing a thing
Speaker 4: that did happen in the past but is no longer happening,
Speaker 4: and like, obviously that's not going away. We're gonna have
Speaker 4: to learn we're learning to do with that as as humanity.
Speaker 4: But I don't know, for whatever reason, I've just been
Speaker 4: thinking about it a lot. Yeah, it's kind of strange.
Speaker 4: I mean it's kind of strange. We come home after
Speaker 4: being outside and then we watch a screen of people
Speaker 4: pretending to live lives.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I.
Speaker 1: Mean we're still not over the the like ability to
Speaker 1: look at images or short you know, video clips of
Speaker 1: things actually happening around the world, and now we're moving
Speaker 1: into an era where it's like or things that somebody
Speaker 1: just edited, you know, or deep faked to make. So
Speaker 1: like not that really matters, because, like we said, when
Speaker 1: you're using an entire globes worth of like inputs of
Speaker 1: you can find somebody doing anything you need them to do.
Speaker 4: And yeah, exactly, but yeah, but like the deep think,
Speaker 4: the deep think thing is weird, right, Like, yeah, it's
Speaker 4: gonna we're gonna have to learn to deal with it
Speaker 4: as like a human race, Like how do we because
Speaker 4: the human bodies constitute to react to things as if
Speaker 4: they're really happening, right, Like a lot of what I
Speaker 4: saw powering mass protests in twenty tens was like a
Speaker 4: deep revulsion, like a like a like a visceral disgust
Speaker 4: at something really horrible happening. And like imagine because like
Speaker 4: the human body, when it sees like violence, it kind
Speaker 4: of gets keyed up to maybe either run away or participate.
Speaker 4: Like imagine, now, you know, in ten to twenty years,
Speaker 4: we're able to see scenes of violence that aren't happening
Speaker 4: at all, Yet the human body still responds as if
Speaker 4: it's a yeah, it's material reality. Anyways. I don't know,
Speaker 4: I don't know what any of that means or what
Speaker 4: we're supposed to do about it, but I spend a
Speaker 4: lot of time thinking about how new all it all
Speaker 4: kind of is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it also brings up this other point,
Speaker 1: like that the guy who I'm invented the loudspeaker, like
Speaker 1: perfected it in the early twentieth century always felt like responsible,
Speaker 1: like doomed throughout his life because he had altered, just minutely,
Speaker 1: the ability for somebody to speak to people who weren't
Speaker 1: within a twenty foot radius, you know, without raising his
Speaker 1: voice like that. He was like, I feel partially responsible
Speaker 1: for the rise of fascism in the thirties.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that is that a real story that he.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure unless I got my sources wrong a
Speaker 1: long time ago. But yeah, like he he really felt
Speaker 1: like he had fucked up, and well.
Speaker 4: It's interesting. It's interesting that he would hone in on
Speaker 4: that phenomenon because arguably he did help make fascism happen,
Speaker 4: but he also helped make like a million other things happen.
Speaker 4: Like why is it that the one thing that he
Speaker 4: thinks right that he gift gifted to or the you know,
Speaker 4: the poison.
Speaker 1: Big story at the time, I feel like.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess it was all over it.
Speaker 2: Yeah it was a good thing.
Speaker 3: Like at a family dinner, he's like, well, y'all, don't
Speaker 3: feel guilty about basically bringing on fascism.
Speaker 4: So because you would, like everything that happens after photography,
Speaker 4: and then everything that happens after the ability for of
Speaker 4: us to record sound is like you can't undo it.
Speaker 4: It's like everything after nineteen thirty as a result of
Speaker 4: the recordings of sound, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly, what's something you think is underrated?
Speaker 4: I'm changing this now because I just wanted to mention ambrosia,
Speaker 4: Ambrosia salad. A yeah, so it is my middle name,
Speaker 4: number one ambrose Okay, oh nice. And I used to
Speaker 4: know a performer back in San Francisco whose drag name
Speaker 4: was Ambrosia salad and I thought that was very good.
Speaker 4: So yeah, that's that count me out of that question
Speaker 4: because it allowed me to yeah, that's my Yeah. I mean,
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if in if the dish is named
Speaker 4: after or like I think maybe the old Roman name
Speaker 4: is named after like the necture of the gods, and
Speaker 4: then that's also what the etymological story behind the salad
Speaker 4: is that right? Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: But apparently it's like the earliest recipes are from like
Speaker 2: the nineteenth century, Like people have been tinkering with the
Speaker 2: sweet ambrosia for a long time and now it's we're
Speaker 2: just at a place where it's like whipped cream and
Speaker 2: just sugar and fruit taped things.
Speaker 1: Ambrosia definitely like has its proponents to a level, Like
Speaker 1: I don't I am not experienced enough with ambrosia to
Speaker 1: like have a strong take on it, but I do
Speaker 1: respect something where people are like, yeah, we're just naming
Speaker 1: the ship.
Speaker 5: That after the nextro of the Gods. That's how good
Speaker 5: it is? Yeah, like it's it's one of those things.
Speaker 5: It's not like Gore may but when you eat it,
Speaker 5: like how the fuck am I gonna get mad at
Speaker 5: like fruit and cream together, Like, yeah, it's not offensive.
Speaker 4: It is often upsetting when like a really good name
Speaker 4: is given to something that is not good, Like Amazon
Speaker 4: makes me upset. Yeah, because the Amazon as a forest,
Speaker 4: the Amazon has like like a classical myth, are like
Speaker 4: both very cool things. Yes, and then Jeff Bezos turned
Speaker 4: like a mail delivery company into Amazon. I think that's
Speaker 4: not fair somehow. There's like injustice done there. I think
Speaker 4: that Amazon we need to think of either the Island
Speaker 4: of Warriors back in antiquity or like the Amazon forest,
Speaker 4: not like how do you order something.
Speaker 2: It'll really piss you off.
Speaker 3: When he was trying to call it amazing and someone
Speaker 3: was like, you should change it to amperzone.
Speaker 2: Seems like a good idea. What about amazing?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Elon Musk did try to name like twenty five things
Speaker 4: X and everyone in his entire life was like, you
Speaker 4: can't do that, that's stupid. Until he became rich enough
Speaker 4: that he could.
Speaker 3: And now it's x everything isn't like isn't the AI
Speaker 3: company x AI too? Like it's just every he's exifiring. Fuck,
Speaker 3: he's Wayne Campbell. He's Wayne Campbell from Wayne.
Speaker 1: He wishes he was Wayne Campbell from Wayne's World. Who
Speaker 1: thinks that seems to be he's incorporating all of his mannerisms.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The X thing is like is like the producer who
Speaker 1: just really wanted to put a mechanical spider in his movie,
Speaker 1: and like Kevin Smith was working for him on a
Speaker 1: supermanscript and he was like, what about like a giant
Speaker 1: robot spider and they are like, it doesn't really make
Speaker 1: sense for this particular thing. And then he like watches
Speaker 1: the guy's movie.
Speaker 2: Wild Wild West.
Speaker 1: Movie that takes place in the wild West somehow has
Speaker 1: a robotic spider in it. There he got his fucking robot.
Speaker 4: It's steam powered.
Speaker 2: That's how I get around all the technological.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just taking just having an idea and never taking
Speaker 1: the number, the sheer number of know's that you are
Speaker 1: receiving as any indication other than they just they don't
Speaker 1: get it.
Speaker 4: It's the world that doesn't understand. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: All right, let's take a quick break and we'll come
Speaker 1: back and get into the book.
Speaker 4: We'll be right back.
Speaker 1: Yep, and we're back. And you know, one of the
Speaker 1: kind of central questions that I went into the book
Speaker 1: with and that I just think is interesting and you
Speaker 1: kind of open up talking about is just the way
Speaker 1: that like a you know, we're interested inherently in the
Speaker 1: Zech the idea that there is zechgeister, a collective consciousness.
Speaker 1: And you know, you open your book, which is about
Speaker 1: like one of these things where for a decade there
Speaker 1: were these movements that seemed to resemble each other in
Speaker 1: some ways, kind of often superficial, but spreading around the globe.
Speaker 1: You also open your book talking about the spirit of
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, the idea where like revolution is happening
Speaker 1: across the globe all at once, almost like there's something
Speaker 1: in the air, right, And this is you know, sixty
Speaker 1: years before social media, and you know, these protests and
Speaker 1: uprising sweep around the world and even in communist countries.
Speaker 1: So I'd just be interested in first just for framing
Speaker 1: of the entire conversation, like hearing you speak about what
Speaker 1: are the dynamics that are at play there, Like how
Speaker 1: do you think something like that happens.
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, So whether or not we really truly understand,
Speaker 4: I think we can come up with theories. But historically,
Speaker 4: revolutions uprisings are come in waves, they cluster around certain years.
Speaker 4: And you know, the best way we have to explain
Speaker 4: this is people hear about things happening us where they think,
Speaker 4: maybe I can do this here, even if their conditions
Speaker 4: are different, even if the things they're protesting against are different.
Speaker 4: And I think media has to be part of this story,
Speaker 4: right because before media would be impossible for people to
Speaker 4: find in Germany, to find out what's happening in France,
Speaker 4: and you know, unless somebody came and told them that's
Speaker 4: the story. So even like in eighteen forty eight, like
Speaker 4: you know, the Spring of Nations in Europe, you saw
Speaker 4: like common commonalities across countries, and I think you see
Speaker 4: in a acceleration of that process the more media tied
Speaker 4: we become. So nineteen sixty eight, you have quite a
Speaker 4: lot of back and forth happening between Western Europe and
Speaker 4: the United States, especially California, but also like they're doing
Speaker 4: different things. Like if you just if you just like
Speaker 4: look at the pictures of it, it may look the same,
Speaker 4: but there's different things happening, and certainly the people in Prague,
Speaker 4: or in China or in Egypt, which in my book
Speaker 4: I kind of say that they all do kind of
Speaker 4: have their own type of nineteen sixty eight. They're all
Speaker 4: very different types of movements and protesting, very different types
Speaker 4: of governments. But like this seems to be a thing
Speaker 4: at least in the histories, in the history of revolution,
Speaker 4: most serious thinkers do think that there is some kind
Speaker 4: of like a zeitgeist of rebellion in the air, that
Speaker 4: there are waves of rebellions, there are clusters of uprisings.
Speaker 4: I think media has to be part of that story
Speaker 4: about like again, we have to. That's something we as
Speaker 4: an explanation, we pose on retroactively to make sense of
Speaker 4: what's happened after it all explodes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's also the phenomenon of like parallel invention,
Speaker 1: where you know, the light bulb is invented in multiple
Speaker 1: places around the world, like within you know, months of
Speaker 1: each other, like at least you know, years of each other,
Speaker 1: And so we're all kind of working from the same
Speaker 1: book and coming up with the same ideas. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just just interested. It's not really the central thesis
Speaker 1: of your book, but just as somebody who spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time thinking about that, I was curious to
Speaker 1: hear your thoughts on that.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean I guess Zeitgeist is kind of
Speaker 4: a Galian idea, right, And like in this book and
Speaker 4: in like this the understanding of what's supposed to be
Speaker 4: happening in protests, there is kind of some like deep
Speaker 4: Galian assumptions that there is kind of like a world
Speaker 4: historical spirit like this, like history with the capital H
Speaker 4: moves forward right in some grand and mystical way. And
Speaker 4: so whether or not that's true or not, I think
Speaker 4: we can you know, probably most people are not the Galiens,
Speaker 4: but some people, but you know, I think a lot
Speaker 4: of people do kind of have this deep, deep down
Speaker 4: feeling or assumption that there is kind of like a
Speaker 4: history with a capital H that moves forward and this Yeah,
Speaker 4: this this ends up actually coming up in the book,
Speaker 4: for better or worse.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Another thing you talk about is just this sense among
Speaker 1: revolutionaries of and this is something that I've just noticed
Speaker 1: across you know, reading about history of like the joy
Speaker 1: that people feel, and reading about protests like the fading
Speaker 1: out of these capitalist roles, and you know, you mentioned
Speaker 1: the idea of a medieval carnival where they would kind
Speaker 1: of topple hierarchies for a set period of time. In
Speaker 1: the book Dawn of Everything, David Graeber talks about, like,
Speaker 1: you know, doing archaeological studies of these tribal Native American
Speaker 1: civilizations that have like that that was actually built into
Speaker 1: the structure of how they operated, where there would be
Speaker 1: these holidays where people would change and you know, the
Speaker 1: chiefs or the police, the people who acted as the
Speaker 1: police would become clowns, and you know, just all of
Speaker 1: these like switching of the roles the people had, so
Speaker 1: and it was it was kind of built in that
Speaker 1: if somebody had a really great hunting season, they would
Speaker 1: then be kind of ritualistically humiliated in front of everybody
Speaker 1: so that they were not attached to their kind of
Speaker 1: hierarchical role. But yeah, I don't know, it's just interesting,
Speaker 1: like giving people an environment where they can forget their
Speaker 1: capitalist lives and dissolve into a collective seems to more
Speaker 1: and more like connect with people. And I feel like
Speaker 1: it is kind of an important part of the equation
Speaker 1: and part of what makes me hopeful about you know,
Speaker 1: the fact that there could be some people driven change,
Speaker 1: right is how much there is just that that urge there.
Speaker 1: But obviously you know, this is something you think about
Speaker 1: and put in the book, So just curious to hear
Speaker 1: your thoughts. Is that part of the thing that makes
Speaker 1: you come away from this and still be helpful even
Speaker 1: though the aims of the protesters often get swarded repeatedly
Speaker 1: in these stories.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's part of it. I mean, I guess the
Speaker 4: main thing that makes me hopeful is that I came
Speaker 4: away from this book that I did. You know, through
Speaker 4: two hundred two hundred fifteen interviews in twelve countries, and
Speaker 4: almost everyone, even if they had been, you know, apparently
Speaker 4: defeated in the short term, had experienced some kind of
Speaker 4: a crushing defeat. Almost no one had given up on
Speaker 4: the idea of getting together with other human beings and
Speaker 4: tried to build a better world. They had, you thought
Speaker 4: about new strategies, they had thought about doing things differently.
Speaker 4: They maybe had to leave their home country or gone
Speaker 4: to jail, but they had not given up. And a
Speaker 4: lot of people have said, even if they knew, even
Speaker 4: after they knew, how things ultimately turned out even if
Speaker 4: they now know that the story ended in disaster, they
Speaker 4: would say things like I could relive that day every
Speaker 4: day for the rest of my life. It's the most
Speaker 4: alive that I've ever felt, and that feeling is something
Speaker 4: that I will never stop reliving. And I think that
Speaker 4: that feeling is related to not only what you said
Speaker 4: about this historical practice of inverting hierarchies and sort of
Speaker 4: creating more direct links between people that you see in
Speaker 4: all kinds of any civilization, of any complexity. I think
Speaker 4: you see these things, kinds of things popping up, the
Speaker 4: medieval carnival, the case you just online have. I've read
Speaker 4: a lot of Graver books. Graver's books been not that one.
Speaker 4: But I think it's also related to that other phenomenon
Speaker 4: we spoke about earlier, like the feeling right now, which
Speaker 4: I think drives the elections of people like Schwartzenegger and
Speaker 4: Trump and Bosono in me Lea that were not actually
Speaker 4: in control of what's happening. The structures that you're supposed
Speaker 4: to represent us are not actually representing us. There are
Speaker 4: a few moments in your daily life when you really
Speaker 4: feel that you're making history, that you're part of something
Speaker 4: like is guys that you're actually work connecting with other
Speaker 4: people and actually imposing your will in the most positive sense,
Speaker 4: like trying to reshape reality in a way that actually
Speaker 4: matters at all. And so when those feelings come around
Speaker 4: for people in this day and age, at this level
Speaker 4: of like social complexity and in a world of interconnected
Speaker 4: political systems which I think it is right to believe
Speaker 4: don't really represent us that well anymore, it feels so
Speaker 4: incredibly powerful. It feels like this is something that I've
Speaker 4: been starving for because the like right now, what I'm
Speaker 4: actually doing feels like it's really changing things. And that
Speaker 4: is a feeling that I think that even if we
Speaker 4: didn't have to improve the global system, which I think
Speaker 4: we do, it would It's it's like there's a deep
Speaker 4: there's a deep yearning for that in humanity to connect
Speaker 4: with other people and build something, connect with other people
Speaker 4: and do something really like to make a difference, and
Speaker 4: there's not we don't feel that way very often. Often
Speaker 4: where you know a movie, there's.
Speaker 1: Like a meaningless that has like been encoded into everything
Speaker 1: that is pretty frustrating, and I think people assume might
Speaker 1: be like something that we just like take for granted
Speaker 1: is like part of day to day life, but it
Speaker 1: really when you read you know, historical accounts and like
Speaker 1: interviews with people who are parts of things like this
Speaker 1: in your book, and it's really like there is something
Speaker 1: that makes you feel alive, which suggest to me maybe
Speaker 1: that's how we're supposed to feel, is like in our lives,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, yeah, you don't feel a lot you know, Yeah,
Speaker 4: you feel something when you know, like scroll in social
Speaker 4: media all day and like get mad at a post
Speaker 4: and then do a post and people get you. You
Speaker 4: feel something. You don't exactly feel alive, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not that omnipotence that like being in the
Speaker 3: streets or being the collective can kind of bring you
Speaker 3: when you're just kind of yeah, when it's the digital
Speaker 3: response version, you're getting to feel something, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: I'm curious like in that, you know, like that feeling
Speaker 3: that allows people to come together and be like, yeah,
Speaker 3: you know what I'm I'm also not pleased. I'm angry
Speaker 3: about this thing. You know in your book, you know,
Speaker 3: for people who aren't fully aware, you're examining a lot
Speaker 3: of these mass movements that you know, most of the
Speaker 3: time didn't actually end up bringing about the change that
Speaker 3: the people were seeking, and in fact, movements get co
Speaker 3: opted and you know, can turn into, as you say,
Speaker 3: like almost bringing the opposite effect of what they wanted initially, Right,
Speaker 3: Is there something Do you think there is something woven
Speaker 3: in that like that the Like, obviously there are very
Speaker 3: politically minded activists and people who are organizing and understand
Speaker 3: like maybe mechanically what has to happen, But because so
Speaker 3: many are just sort of taken up by this larger
Speaker 3: feeling that we kind of get stuck in the of
Speaker 3: doing the explosive like this is our feedback to the
Speaker 3: leaders of the world kind of thing, and then forgetting
Speaker 3: what happens after that.
Speaker 4: I think that, yes, partially, I think that. So the
Speaker 4: phenomenon that I choose to build this history around is
Speaker 4: mass protest that gets so big that they either overthrow
Speaker 4: governments or fundamentally destabilized governments. So these are movements that
Speaker 4: at first unexpectedly appear to be incredibly successful, Like so
Speaker 4: enough people came on the streets that actually the president
Speaker 4: or the dictator is like fleeing the country or is
Speaker 4: so scared and so desperate to stay in power that
Speaker 4: they want to that they'll give something up to the
Speaker 4: people in the streets in order to stay in power. Now,
Speaker 4: what happens next ends up being the focus of my book.
Speaker 4: Is what I try to do is I go back
Speaker 4: and say, well, what actually happened in the years that followed,
Speaker 4: after a lot of the foreign journalists have stopped, you know,
Speaker 4: producing the very inspiring images on screens around the planet,
Speaker 4: What really happened? And to answer that question as to
Speaker 4: what actually happened? I think is related to your question
Speaker 4: someone indirectly, but related is that the way that we
Speaker 4: are living starved of this feeling, starved of this actual
Speaker 4: connection with other you know, we are like digitally quote
Speaker 4: unquote connected because we're you know, we're we're sending you know,
Speaker 4: messages on screens, but we're we're living more individualized lives
Speaker 4: than I think most of humanity ever has. We are
Speaker 4: often responding to like posts. This this way that we
Speaker 4: have been living for several decades shaped the type of
Speaker 4: the types of responses which were easiest to put together
Speaker 4: to real injustice. They've shaped the types of things that
Speaker 4: we did first when confronted with real abuses of power.
Speaker 4: And I think that is yes, part of the story,
Speaker 4: and a lot of a lot of the people had
Speaker 4: this at the end, like you know, we at the
Speaker 4: end of the book, you know, after I've interviewed everyone
Speaker 4: asked them to look back in what happened, and a
Speaker 4: lot of them said, yes, it was not only this
Speaker 4: system that we thought that it had had been oppressing us,
Speaker 4: but that shaped the way that we understood political change.
Speaker 4: It shaped the way that we could put together responses
Speaker 4: to injustice, and that ended up meaning that we couldn't
Speaker 4: get through that first of apparent victory to the next step,
Speaker 4: which was actually creating something better. So yeah, I do.
Speaker 4: I do think it's all related. I think that we
Speaker 4: we and then you know, that's part of the learning process, right,
Speaker 4: That's part of the what happened in the twenty tens
Speaker 4: is a lot of people got much further than they
Speaker 4: expected and then realized where the barriers were. But I
Speaker 4: think that the fact that we have been living this
Speaker 4: way for so long is part of the reason that
Speaker 4: explains why it was the mass protest that came together
Speaker 4: very very quickly. That was the way that often was
Speaker 4: the automatic response, Like why the twenty tens the dominant
Speaker 4: mode of the twenty tens rather than other of these
Speaker 4: you know, years of Uprising was mass protest or the
Speaker 4: mass why it was a mass protest? Decide if you
Speaker 4: want to use the sub top of my book.
Speaker 1: You know, I think one of the things that you
Speaker 1: end up pointing to is that a lot of these
Speaker 1: protests were coming at the right time, right, there was
Speaker 1: this energy and this desire, but they were specifically horizontally
Speaker 1: organized or organized to resist leadership. And is that kind
Speaker 1: of the big takeaway that you just you think that
Speaker 1: future protests protest movements need to kind of take away
Speaker 1: from this book, Is that some manner of organization, some
Speaker 1: manner of like, you know, if you aren't prepared after
Speaker 1: you create the change to step in to lead, somebody
Speaker 1: is going to lead for you. Is that would that
Speaker 1: be kind of the big you know, because there is
Speaker 1: the example of this actually working, right, and the big
Speaker 1: thing there was that the leftists who created the change
Speaker 1: then involve themselves in national politics, right, So like would
Speaker 1: you say that is the big takeaway that they just
Speaker 1: need to be ready to organize and then lead.
Speaker 4: That dynamic I think that you just outlined is goes
Speaker 4: a big goes a long way towards explaining a lot
Speaker 4: of what happened in many of the cases in the book.
Speaker 4: There's like ten to thirteen depending on how you count them.
Speaker 4: But that dynamic if you you know, if the book
Speaker 4: is indeed built around the question, how is it possible
Speaker 4: that so many mass protests led to the opposite of
Speaker 4: what they asked for? You've outlined I think, yeah, A
Speaker 4: major part of the answer, which is that what happened
Speaker 4: unexpectedly is that more people came out into the streets
Speaker 4: than than was planned for. They joined a very specific
Speaker 4: type of response to injustice, a very specific type of
Speaker 4: mass protests, which is you know, which has various elements.
Speaker 4: It is apparently spontaneous, leaderless, digitally coordinated. Often you know,
Speaker 4: people are finding out about this because of social media
Speaker 4: or media in general. And then horizontally structured, which means
Speaker 4: that there's not hierarchy, and there's often an idea that
Speaker 4: there shouldn't be. And then these are protests in public
Speaker 4: squares or in or in public spaces, and when more
Speaker 4: people come than expect are than are expected, then yeah,
Speaker 4: the government is perhaps dislodged or the government is so
Speaker 4: weakened the power is up for grabs, and often what
Speaker 4: happened in you know that this is where you know,
Speaker 4: cases really diverge. But often what happened is whoever was
Speaker 4: already there organized waiting in the wings, steps in and
Speaker 4: takes power. The person that was like waiting, you know,
Speaker 4: off off off camera, off stage, takes over, or you know,
Speaker 4: sometimes that is the local national elites. They're not always
Speaker 4: on the right. Sometimes they are on the right, or
Speaker 4: especially in the cases of countries that are weaker than
Speaker 4: the US, you often had some neighbor or the US
Speaker 4: itself coming in to fill that vacuum and crush the movement.
Speaker 4: And then when that kind of counter attack comes, just
Speaker 4: like it did in seventeen eighty nine or in the
Speaker 4: revolutions in previous eras of global revolution, there's usually a
Speaker 4: counter attack of counter revolution. That protest that hadn't planned
Speaker 4: on going to war with anybody, that had not planned
Speaker 4: on even actually overthrowing a government is really was really
Speaker 4: not ready for it was really not ready to defend
Speaker 4: this project, which really concretely consisted of millions of different
Speaker 4: people with different ideas as to what it was. Because
Speaker 4: they came together so quickly, and you know that part
Speaker 4: of it I think is a strength in the beginning
Speaker 4: is you can get so many people together very quick
Speaker 4: because every sort of everyone's invited. But once you get
Speaker 4: past that first moment, often there was a brief moment
Speaker 4: when there was an opportunity, and usually the people that
Speaker 4: took the opportunity were already organized, already ready, and already
Speaker 4: waiting in the wings to seize power, where whereas the
Speaker 4: stream movements couldn't decide if they believed in taking power,
Speaker 4: or who was supposed to do it, or if what
Speaker 4: they would do with it if they would and while
Speaker 4: that sort of non conversation was not happening, like the
Speaker 4: military sweeps in or a right wing populi sweeps in,
Speaker 4: or NATO bombs your country and so on.
Speaker 3: When it comes to like kind of like looking like
Speaker 3: because you know, looking at the book and just kind
Speaker 3: of thinking about everything I'm always thinking of, like you know,
Speaker 3: like how this relates to the United States too, and
Speaker 3: how we dabble a lot. I mean, yeah, we've seen
Speaker 3: a lot of mass protests. I mean, like in twenty
Speaker 3: twenty felt like a huge moment with Black Lives Matter
Speaker 3: and people beginning to sort of be able to articulate,
Speaker 3: like sort of what is wrong with our system of
Speaker 3: policing only to just get like Nancy Pelosi kneeling in
Speaker 3: the kintach cloth at the Capitol, right, and then like.
Speaker 2: Like what about qualified immunity. There's like a lot of
Speaker 2: things we could do.
Speaker 3: And so I look at things like you know, like
Speaker 3: United Auto Workers or Organized Labor right now, and they've
Speaker 3: been able to wield some really inspiring like collective power
Speaker 3: and we're able to extract tangible concessions. But I feel
Speaker 3: like that a lot of that is because these groups
Speaker 3: are organized around proper power and in a specific industry,
Speaker 3: and their tool is to withhold their labor, which then
Speaker 3: affects revenue, which then affects the leadership, and then that's
Speaker 3: how they bring them to the table when you know,
Speaker 3: how do we take sort of like you know, what's
Speaker 3: from your perspective, what are the learnings?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 3: That's a very obviously potent tool that it's like it's
Speaker 3: very specific, and I think that's probably the benefit of
Speaker 3: those kinds of movements is because they're all they're very
Speaker 3: focused on like some very specific things. But when we're
Speaker 3: talking about sort of like the discontent that people are
Speaker 3: experiencing in the United States based on inequality or et cetera.
Speaker 3: How do we take that going merely past the point
Speaker 3: of these sort of huge gestures, you know, these expressions
Speaker 3: of anger and translate that into outcomes, because a lot
Speaker 3: of the times, like you're saying, these movements, they're not there,
Speaker 3: are horizontally organized, or they get so big, like people
Speaker 3: like at the picket for police brutality.
Speaker 2: Some guys got to sign.
Speaker 3: He's talking about like batteries give you cancer, And you're like, well,
Speaker 3: what the fuck is what?
Speaker 2: Like what are we doing now?
Speaker 3: Like, so what do we do when it sort of
Speaker 3: falls outside of that realm of something as specific as
Speaker 3: like the workplace or outcomes as of workers.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good that's a good way to pose
Speaker 4: the question because those two two's two phenomena I think
Speaker 4: are interrelated in different and important ways. On the one hand,
Speaker 4: one of the things that people said in Egypt, for Brazil,
Speaker 4: or or or or Libya or around the world at
Speaker 4: the end of the book is I wish we would
Speaker 4: have been more organized before the explosion came. I would
Speaker 4: wish we would have organized when it seemed like nothing
Speaker 4: was happening, like the lesson, the lesson off being essentially
Speaker 4: built in the off season because you don't know what's
Speaker 4: going to come, and when something, an opportunity does does arise,
Speaker 4: you want to already happy word you know, connected with
Speaker 4: other people that believe in the same things as you.
Speaker 4: And this is kind of the story of the UAW right.
Speaker 4: Like in twenty seventeen, you do have people that are
Speaker 4: from the kind of the world of progressive politics realizing, oh,
Speaker 4: we kids try to reform. There's the UAW reform conkis.
Speaker 4: This is a process that starts in twenty seventeen when
Speaker 4: it seems like, you know, there's no opportunities for organized
Speaker 4: labor right now, you know, Donald Trump's just won the presidency.
Speaker 4: What you know, you know, But but it ends up
Speaker 4: paying off much much later. And it pays off because
Speaker 4: as you say, you withdraw, you withhold your labor. And
Speaker 4: not only do you withhold your labor, because this is
Speaker 4: a this is the really hard move that is almost
Speaker 4: impossible for the horizontally structured mass protest to pull off,
Speaker 4: is that you withhold your labor asking for a raise.
Speaker 4: You may ask for all kinds of things that you
Speaker 4: think you're not going to get, you ask.
Speaker 6: For them, but you know that there is a amount
Speaker 6: of money that you can get that will lead you
Speaker 6: to go back to work, and the boss also knows
Speaker 6: that the boss believes the boss will make an offer,
Speaker 6: and then the union says, oh, yes, if we get
Speaker 6: this amount of concessions from you, we will go back
Speaker 6: to work.
Speaker 4: And that's why the boss gives it because there's this
Speaker 4: exit ramp right like everyone can you know, even if
Speaker 4: you could, even if you use the strike to raise
Speaker 4: consciousness about working class part in the United States, even
Speaker 4: if you make all kinds of some demands that you're
Speaker 4: not going to get this time, the only reason for
Speaker 4: the boss to give the raise is the credible promise
Speaker 4: that the labor is restored the next day. This is
Speaker 4: something that this was the very strange, like it really
Speaker 4: confounded everyone that was living through it. Like as it
Speaker 4: was happening, the politicians and the original organizers for example
Speaker 4: of this unexpected mass explosion in Brazil in twenty thirteen,
Speaker 4: didn't know how to deal with this phenomenon because the
Speaker 4: president wanted to give the streets something but could not
Speaker 4: figure out what it was that would that could be
Speaker 4: given and then that the streets could say, oh yes,
Speaker 4: that's great, We'll take that for now, you know. And
Speaker 4: again in these moments, you may ask for really really
Speaker 4: radical reforms. You may you know, bring up the possibility
Speaker 4: of entirely changing or getting rid of the current policing
Speaker 4: orcarceral system. That is a thing that can be part
Speaker 4: of this larger process. But when there's no when there
Speaker 4: was no ability for the people in power to understand
Speaker 4: that they would somehow get out of this like because
Speaker 4: they're often, like I said, they're scared. So if you're
Speaker 4: not willing to actually overthrow the government and form a
Speaker 4: new one, but you can scare the government, then what
Speaker 4: you want is to use that moment where they're kind
Speaker 4: of on their back on their heels to get something.
Speaker 4: But they're only going to get it if they think that, okay,
Speaker 4: well that that means that I can stand again that
Speaker 4: if I do give this thing, I will be it
Speaker 4: will be demonstrated that you know, mass protest extracts goods
Speaker 4: from me. It will be, it will be proven. You know.
Speaker 4: On the other side of this equation there might be
Speaker 4: all this more this radical energy that's that's born. But
Speaker 4: at least I can hold on for now, And and
Speaker 4: a lot of times in the twenty tents, the government
Speaker 4: couldn't even figure out what to give in order to
Speaker 4: full order, so then they just they end up opted
Speaker 4: opting for And this depended on context repression just like
Speaker 4: crack like just cracking down or just waiting it out,
Speaker 4: which turns out kind of works. And and that that
Speaker 4: that that that that dynamic that you brought up too,
Speaker 4: like because I you know, in twenty twenty, I mean
Speaker 4: I didn't write I know very little about the George floetuprising.
Speaker 4: I spent a lot of time learning about the rest
Speaker 4: of these in the book, but I did get like
Speaker 4: I did watch of course, and this was something that
Speaker 4: I started to talk about with my friends that were in,
Speaker 4: you know, involved on the streets, that if the government
Speaker 4: just kind of does nothing, the longer things go on,
Speaker 4: the more likely it is that that guy with the
Speaker 4: sign that says batteries give you cancer, we'll get on television.
Speaker 4: Right even if and again, to go back to the
Speaker 4: very beginning of our conversation, even if like that's an fbhiaja,
Speaker 4: you know, if like it makes sense for the government
Speaker 4: to just send three people out there to do the
Speaker 4: dumbest thing that you could imagine point a camera at
Speaker 4: them and be like, this is what you are?
Speaker 2: Is that what you are?
Speaker 4: And in the case of these horizontally structured uprisings, the
Speaker 4: uprising cannot say no, we're not, no, it's not, which
Speaker 4: is something that the Black Panther Party and CORE and SNCAC,
Speaker 4: the civil rights groups in the fifties in sixties then
Speaker 4: inspired so much of contemporary process as we know it.
Speaker 4: So much of the sixties movements in the student New
Speaker 4: Left were really inspired by the right organizations in the
Speaker 4: fifties and sixties. They absolutely would have had an ability
Speaker 4: to say that guy, we don't know that guy, right,
Speaker 4: but that but that was lost in the you know,
Speaker 4: it's a it's a mixed bag. There's positive negatives to
Speaker 4: the to the dynamic which allows people like a lot
Speaker 4: of people to come to the streets at the same time,
Speaker 4: whereas often it took like two years to put together
Speaker 4: the mass demonstrations that were common in the fifties and
Speaker 4: sixties because they had to like slowly, slowly, one by
Speaker 4: one recruit people and vet them. Whereas now we can
Speaker 4: everyone can show up, but then there's no one to
Speaker 4: say yeah, really anything full on behalf of the.
Speaker 3: Streets, right, Yeah, Like when Boogoloo boys showed up at
Speaker 3: like BLM things and they're like, well, what, well, hold
Speaker 3: on y'all. They're like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we
Speaker 3: like this too, and it's like, okay, no, this this,
Speaker 3: this is not it not over here.
Speaker 1: But yeah, let's let's take a quick break and then yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to keep talking about this. We'll be right
Speaker 1: back and we're back. And what one just kind of
Speaker 1: universal observation from a lot of the stories you covered
Speaker 1: the you know, twenty twenty protests in the US, Like
Speaker 1: there seems to be a universal just like people are
Speaker 1: like fuck fuck the police. Like a lot of the times,
Speaker 1: like the police really end up being you know, you
Speaker 1: talk to somebody who is in Ukraine and is like
Speaker 1: the you know, these Miton protests are kind of seem
Speaker 1: weird and like neoliberal to me, and so I'm not
Speaker 1: into it. But then the second the police show up
Speaker 1: and start being the shit out of people, it becomes
Speaker 1: like a national movement, right, So I don't know, like
Speaker 1: that that just seems like it kept coming up, like
Speaker 1: why wait, why are we putting up this a universal
Speaker 1: truth that like we all agree on, like around the
Speaker 1: globe is like a cap like, fuck this institution, please the.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think this is really so absolutely and
Speaker 4: this again, this was I put together this book as
Speaker 4: a history. It really kind of like, if I've done
Speaker 4: it right, it should hopefully read like a story and
Speaker 4: you can go through the events like a movie and
Speaker 4: sort of see what happens and connect with it different
Speaker 4: things and understand how things are interrelated. And I think
Speaker 4: that if there was any value to doing that is
Speaker 4: to see what things pop up as similar in the
Speaker 4: different And one thing that surprised me is how common
Speaker 4: this was the dynamic unist outlined where the first demand
Speaker 4: no one cares that much about. There's a small thing
Speaker 4: at the very beginning, or there's you know, there's some
Speaker 4: issue or some interaction between one one individual and one
Speaker 4: police officer. But then the image of the police doing
Speaker 4: what they are literally trained to do, which is to
Speaker 4: repress populations and moment of moments of a parent illegality
Speaker 4: shocks the country so much that that's what really sets
Speaker 4: off the explosion, that that's really what gets millions and
Speaker 4: millions of people in the streets. And then at that
Speaker 4: point there's sort of this discussion as to what it is.
Speaker 4: But I think there's two things there. One of them
Speaker 4: is that dynamic we spoke about the very beginning, like photography,
Speaker 4: like the ability to instantly see because before you know
Speaker 4: the camera, but certainly before twin on Instagram, the average
Speaker 4: person is never going to see the things that cops
Speaker 4: actually do unless you live in you know, unless it
Speaker 4: actually happens to you or you're walking in front of somebody.
Speaker 4: It's not the case that every single person in the
Speaker 4: country can see what this actually looks like. But in
Speaker 4: the twenty tens, everyone can see what it looks like.
Speaker 4: The most shocking thing that people have been saying about
Speaker 4: what cops do is recorded, and everyone sees it at
Speaker 4: the same time. And often, as I said, if we
Speaker 4: can have like sort of a visceral reaction and then
Speaker 4: you know, and so there's the possibility of seeing that
Speaker 4: and the reality of what it is that in the
Speaker 4: final instance, often reproduces the very unequal societies we live in,
Speaker 4: which is violence, right, and like as I say at
Speaker 4: the end of the book, in almost any country on earth,
Speaker 4: if you want to or if you do the wrong thing,
Speaker 4: a cop will beat the shit out of you. That
Speaker 4: is like the nature of the system that we live
Speaker 4: in globally. So then even though the various demands from
Speaker 4: Brazil to Ukraine are entirely different, that the spark is
Speaker 4: very similar across countries. And then what to do with
Speaker 4: this huge energy which is initially often directed at the police.
Speaker 4: That is something that is hard to translate into something
Speaker 4: else afterwards, even in the case where for example, like
Speaker 4: in Egypt, they like they like they went to battle
Speaker 4: with the cops and the cops lost, Like the cops
Speaker 4: were like ripping off their uniforms and running away, like
Speaker 4: there was no more cops. The people would or at
Speaker 4: least the people that were in the uprising on January
Speaker 4: twenty eighth, twenty eleven, like beat the police and there
Speaker 4: was no one left in charge. But they hadn't planned
Speaker 4: for that. They didn't know what to do, and sort.
Speaker 1: Of pretty having your opponent rip off their uniform and
Speaker 1: run away, like if that happened in sports, Yeah that's
Speaker 1: not you.
Speaker 4: Definitely won if your opponent rips off, yeah and like
Speaker 4: hides their clothes. But yeah, but then they didn't they
Speaker 4: didn't know what to do. But no, yeah, you're right,
Speaker 4: this is something that popped up everywhere the this is
Speaker 4: this is something that often got people very, very upset
Speaker 4: and willing to take risks, to take action. And then
Speaker 4: even when it was apparently incredibly successful, that that that
Speaker 4: that energy, somehow or another could not be translated into
Speaker 4: the construction of something different, even in the most even
Speaker 4: in the most surprising cases.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the speed with which the Brazilian protests go from
Speaker 1: a protest over fair hikes on public transport to get
Speaker 1: getting these on the fair hikes or the the what
Speaker 1: what they were asking for too? Then like the leftists
Speaker 1: who organized the first protests and leftists and anarchists like
Speaker 1: being pushed out like off of the streets by these
Speaker 1: like right wing And that's that's something that like, you know,
Speaker 1: when you look at the definition of fascism, it's like
Speaker 1: take the ideas, the talking points, and the methods of
Speaker 1: leftist organization organizing and use them towards your own. And
Speaker 1: but like the speed with which you see it happen
Speaker 1: in real time, like I kept thinking about like the
Speaker 1: book felt like it was like partially about fluid dynamics,
Speaker 1: like just like how quickly things were, like people would
Speaker 1: flood into this place and then like this other thing
Speaker 1: would come, and but just wild that the speed and
Speaker 1: real time energy with which that happens in that instance.
Speaker 4: Like the way that I said earlier that some people say, oh,
Speaker 4: I could relive every moment of that day for the
Speaker 4: rest of them my life, something similar happens with me
Speaker 4: in that week. Because the amount of days between the
Speaker 4: police crackdown on the leftists in Brazil that causes the
Speaker 4: country to pour out of the streets in sympathy and
Speaker 4: then the new arrivals who are on the beginnings of
Speaker 4: a far right movement throwing those original protesters out of
Speaker 4: the streets is only seven days. But in my memory,
Speaker 4: so much happens, and I could remember like every morning,
Speaker 4: like every hour, something's different is happening in like Facebook groups,
Speaker 4: because like the original group is organizing on face, like
Speaker 4: is putting out like press releases on Facebook. Like it
Speaker 4: seems like nothing, like, oh, it's just a week. So
Speaker 4: much happened in that week. And as you say, yes,
Speaker 4: people that we would now very easily recognize as the
Speaker 4: beginnings of a far right movement in Brazil, they came
Speaker 4: out wearing the yellow and green soccer jersey. Only a
Speaker 4: few days later, a few days after the police cracked down. Actually,
Speaker 4: you know, beat the original organizers rip their like they
Speaker 4: don't like rip their they don't rip their uniforms off,
Speaker 4: but they rip their flags down, and they rip and
Speaker 4: they rip away their their left wing banners and they
Speaker 4: throw them into the streets and then they just go home.
Speaker 4: And that was something that like nobody, like nobody considered
Speaker 4: possible just four days previously, certainly not the original organizers,
Speaker 4: not the government, not I think the beginnings of the
Speaker 4: far right themselves, And it was just an immediate turnaround
Speaker 4: that Brazil has been sort of reeling from for the
Speaker 4: last ten years. And like, I'm not the only person
Speaker 4: to spend a lot of time trying to figure out
Speaker 4: how that, how that happened.
Speaker 3: Yeah, one of the things that like I was really interesting,
Speaker 3: like as you talk about how hope like football hooligans
Speaker 3: and ultras, Yeah, have they played a part in some
Speaker 3: of these movements. Like as I got more and more
Speaker 3: interested in European football, I realized how many of these
Speaker 3: groups have very like specific political views and it's not
Speaker 3: just like we fuck with this team, it's like, no,
Speaker 3: we're also anti fascist and like or we're neo Nazis,
Speaker 3: Like you don't know what the fuck you're gonna get yep,
Speaker 3: can you like just like, can I explain because I
Speaker 3: think that's a very specific thing. But like because in
Speaker 3: America we have sports fans, but not even it's not
Speaker 3: the level of what hooligans are ultras you know, because
Speaker 3: many of these can be gangs in certain instances, But
Speaker 3: like what is that.
Speaker 1: Shared ideological content except with Yankees fans, I guess.
Speaker 3: Or with like or tom Brady's the goat Bro, right,
Speaker 3: Like tom Brady's the goat bro gets you.
Speaker 4: There's like certain there's like certain characteristics of certain teams,
Speaker 4: like Raiders fans you could kind of think of like
Speaker 4: a certain type of guy kind of right, But with
Speaker 4: ultras and in general, like global football culture in general,
Speaker 4: the way that we do sports in the United States
Speaker 4: is like shockingly offensive to them. Like if the fans,
Speaker 4: if the fans of the Brazilian version of the Raiders,
Speaker 4: which is there is one, found out that they like
Speaker 4: their team was moving cities, like, there would be big problems,
Speaker 4: like you that is like that is like that like
Speaker 4: I just I often just like tell Brazilians this and
Speaker 4: they get so mad that you can't them anger because
Speaker 4: these teams are really really embedded in communities, right, Like
Speaker 4: you're born a fan of a certain team. That means
Speaker 4: something and as comes to matter quite a lot in
Speaker 4: the mass protests that I cover, which political ideology a
Speaker 4: given set of football ultras or hooligans has really matters? Now,
Speaker 4: again this is unexpected, but if you think about it,
Speaker 4: it makes a lot of sense. Oh well, if you are,
Speaker 4: without meaning to perhaps calling for extended street battles with
Speaker 4: the police, who's going to be the best at that?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 4: Well, in cities like salth Paulo and Istanbul and Kiv,
Speaker 4: it is football ultras. They they know each other, they
Speaker 4: have coherent identity. They have been battling cops for years.
Speaker 4: They know how to deal with this with street battles.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: And so in twenty thirteen, again, like the burch of
Speaker 4: the books is to put in the book is to
Speaker 4: put like events in chronological order next to each other.
Speaker 4: There's three uprisings in twenty thirteen that really matter in
Speaker 4: the book, Turkey, Brazil and Ukraine in that order, and
Speaker 4: in all three cases football fans end up mattering to
Speaker 4: the final outcome. Now for totally like totally coincidental historic reasons,
Speaker 4: the football fans that show up in Gezie Park in
Speaker 4: Istanbul come with anarchist or communist football banners. In Ukraine,
Speaker 4: it for again, for you know, the central Ukraine is
Speaker 4: not the only part of this region of Europe where
Speaker 4: you would have far far right of football ultruists, but
Speaker 4: it ends up mattering quite a lot to the outcome
Speaker 4: of Year of My Dawn that the football ultras that
Speaker 4: are in the region are on the fall right. They
Speaker 4: end up playing a really big role in the outcome
Speaker 4: in Ukraine. And then in Brazil you get a different
Speaker 4: type of football fan, which is the more the fan
Speaker 4: of the national team, which is a very specific type
Speaker 4: of Brazilian because like, right, I mean, I don't want
Speaker 4: to go too deep into this, but like regular Brazilians
Speaker 4: don't care that much about the national team unless they're winning. Interesting,
Speaker 4: they're like really really loyal to Corinthians. Corinthians is the
Speaker 4: raiders of Brazil. I'm gonna explain why that matters. They're
Speaker 4: really really loyal to the Corinthians, for example. But like
Speaker 4: the it tends to be like an upper middle class,
Speaker 4: wider Brazilian that is in the stadiums at the World
Speaker 4: Cup because it's quite, it's very expensive to go so
Speaker 4: and then so then this group of people that like
Speaker 4: you know, throw anarchists and leftists out of the streets
Speaker 4: ends up mattering. But then jumping forward to twenty twenty two,
Speaker 4: the election last year in which Jirabolscenaro, the far right
Speaker 4: president who takes over in twenty eighteen, is trying everything
Speaker 4: he can to organize a coup. He tried to, he
Speaker 4: tried behind the scenes, he tried, he you know, he
Speaker 4: tried in ways that Trump said, but he was much
Speaker 4: better at he knew he's he's from the era of
Speaker 4: the military dictatorship. He was trying in more sort of
Speaker 4: let's say, informed ways. And right after the election, pro
Speaker 4: Bolsonaro Brazilians block the highways of the country trying to
Speaker 4: make a coup happen. So I'm stuck in South paul
Speaker 4: I'm supposed to go to Rio. You can't go. The
Speaker 4: highways are blocked by the far right. The Corinthians fans
Speaker 4: in South Paulo, which is again the Raiders of Brazil.
Speaker 4: They're like the biggest, most raucous fan group. They're black
Speaker 4: and white, like a lot of their like ultras have
Speaker 4: like ties to prisons, they for whatever historical reasons, are
Speaker 4: pro democracy, pro Lula and center left. They clear the roads,
Speaker 4: they go out and get to get the fuck out
Speaker 4: of the way. Yet get the bist does off the road.
Speaker 4: One because that they believe in democracy and they support Lulin.
Speaker 4: Two because they have to get to a game that
Speaker 4: is that is happening up that highway.
Speaker 2: So if Corinthians wasn't playing Flamengo.
Speaker 3: That day, maybe they wouldn't have helped or whoever they
Speaker 3: were playing, right, yeah, I think it would have been
Speaker 3: it would have been a Rio team.
Speaker 4: But uh yeah, I mean, this is something that's unexpected.
Speaker 4: And then, like the original leftists and anarchists in the
Speaker 4: Brazilian context, at least they realized afterwards because they really
Speaker 4: believe and they really are horizontalists, they believe in sort
Speaker 4: of lighting the spark causing the mass revolt, and then
Speaker 4: they wouldn't need to lead it because it would necessarily
Speaker 4: be good. It would be it would be pushing history
Speaker 4: forward in the sense that we talked about, like is
Speaker 4: there is there a world historical time? They thought that
Speaker 4: that would necessarily push history forward. But one thing they
Speaker 4: realized when that didn't happen is like oh well, we
Speaker 4: picked a part of town where our allies don't really live.
Speaker 4: We picked a street battle in the center of the
Speaker 4: economic capital, whereas we care about more more about the
Speaker 4: working class people in the periphery. But we didn't think
Speaker 4: about like an extended battle. We just kind of thought, you,
Speaker 4: you know, you light the fight. What is it like,
Speaker 4: like Bean, it's kind of Bane logic, what is the
Speaker 4: thing like? What does the Bain say in the beginning
Speaker 4: of the Batman movie where he's like he throws the
Speaker 4: guy of the planes, like, well, you've lit the fire now,
Speaker 4: like everything's taking care. There is kind of this you
Speaker 4: know this scene I'm talking about her mind.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I know the scene for sure. And
Speaker 1: there's also like sharing about the fire rising. Yeah throughout them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just don't I'm not off book on Bain quotes
Speaker 1: like I used to be when I was.
Speaker 4: Right wing and yeah, but they weren't right wing at all.
Speaker 4: But they just believed, okay, well, you know, you light
Speaker 4: this park and you stop off the stage. And the
Speaker 4: selection of the battleground, which they didn't wasn't thought about
Speaker 4: too much because the streets were just sort of supposed
Speaker 4: to represent progress. Ends up making football e shows matter
Speaker 4: quite a lot across this decade in ways that like,
Speaker 4: you know, as strange as it sounds, without in any
Speaker 4: way trying to downplay the role that of course Vladimir
Speaker 4: Putin played in the aftermass of the crisis and criminally
Speaker 4: invading the country. Yeah, still to this day you're kind
Speaker 4: of seeing things be different than they were if it
Speaker 4: were not for the involvement of those those ultras in
Speaker 4: Ukraine and twenty thirteen.
Speaker 1: Well, it's an incredible book. Everybody should go out and
Speaker 1: check it out. And we've got to have you back
Speaker 1: on to kind of keep talking about this, especially in
Speaker 1: the context of you know, well what the US is
Speaker 1: maybe facing in the coming years, in the coming yeares year.
Speaker 1: But Vincent Bevans, thanks so much for coming on. If
Speaker 1: We Burn the Mass Protest Decade and the Missing Revolution
Speaker 1: is the book? Where can people find you? Follow you
Speaker 1: all that good stuff?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm on Twitter, Vincent Bevans the book. I have
Speaker 4: a little time of like launch page for the book,
Speaker 4: which is ww dot If We Burn dot com, that's
Speaker 4: probably the best place to go. You'll find me there
Speaker 4: indirectly if you need to. But that's where I'm trying
Speaker 4: to get people to check out the.
Speaker 1: Book, Go go do it. Is there a work of
Speaker 1: media that you've been enjoying.
Speaker 4: I mean, this might not be an original answer for you,
Speaker 4: but there are I've not been in enjoying any of
Speaker 4: the media. I'm consuming a lot of it. I mean,
Speaker 4: I wake up. You know, it's horrible, right Like it's
Speaker 4: it's a dark time to be online. I think, yeah,
Speaker 4: there's things that I'm paying attention to. Oh man, it's
Speaker 4: it's not like it's not like a joyous time in
Speaker 4: social media, you know, which is I think for better
Speaker 4: worse than I think for worse where a lot of
Speaker 4: us like actually live most of the time. But hopefully,
Speaker 4: you know, hope, you know, but again, future last a
Speaker 4: long time, and hopefully that is not it's not always
Speaker 4: going to be like that. I really, I really hope not.
Speaker 4: If I didn't believe that it then it didn't have
Speaker 4: to be like that, I wouldn't be doing this kind
Speaker 4: of work. So hopefully that I can start to enjoy
Speaker 4: something again.
Speaker 1: There you go, Well, thank you, thank you again for
Speaker 1: joining us.
Speaker 4: Miles.
Speaker 1: Where can people find you? Is there a worker media
Speaker 1: you've been enjoying? Uh?
Speaker 2: You know at based platforms at Miles of Gray.
Speaker 3: Find Jack and I on our basketball podcast when I
Speaker 3: was in jackob at Boost, find me on four to
Speaker 3: twenty Day Fiance, and you know all the stuff like that.
Speaker 3: Uh media, I just said, I watched the first coup
Speaker 3: episode of the squid Game thing. I'm not necessarily recommending it,
Speaker 3: but like I said in a trending episode, man, when
Speaker 3: that guy embraced his mom.
Speaker 2: It really did something to me, really did something to me.
Speaker 4: Is it good?
Speaker 2: Though?
Speaker 4: Is it? Is it good? It shouldn't exist?
Speaker 3: Nah, Like it doesn't. We don't benefit from its existence,
Speaker 3: that's for sure. So I I'll put it there, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean. Like, like I said earlier, like
Speaker 3: it's it. It's the fact that the show was so good.
Speaker 3: It like is doing ninety eight percent of the lifting
Speaker 3: for the reality competition version of it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, just.
Speaker 1: All the all the like set design and all that
Speaker 1: shit that they stole.
Speaker 3: From Yeah, because no one's there being like like it's
Speaker 3: not a commentary on like the squeeze of capitalism on
Speaker 3: like common people. It's just like like it's like an
Speaker 3: influencer who's like, man, you know, Jesus was a competitor
Speaker 3: and so am I, and you're like, fuck you.
Speaker 1: My favorite one my favorite competitors.
Speaker 3: So though he said, it's so you're seats in this
Speaker 3: way where it's like and that justifies any kind of
Speaker 3: like reptile brain should I do in here?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: That is really American Christianity, though, isn't it.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, you just have to say Jesus was gospel. Yeah, hey, man,
Speaker 7: Jesus was addicted to fast food. Have you done the
Speaker 7: Jesus Workout? It actually worked? You get shredded abs, you
Speaker 7: look fucking great.
Speaker 4: What is it like?
Speaker 1: Like like that? That was the thing when I were
Speaker 1: I worked at ABC News and they were always talking about,
Speaker 1: like there's an inside joke in the media that if
Speaker 1: you put the words the Jesus Diet or the Jesus
Speaker 1: Workout on the front page of like anything that is
Speaker 1: like the hack for like you, you will sell a
Speaker 1: million papers. And then since that time, I've like seen
Speaker 1: various permutations of that.
Speaker 4: You could one million percent get a lot of views
Speaker 4: on it. Well produced the Jesus Workout video because it
Speaker 4: would just be carpentry, carpentry carpentry when like the diet
Speaker 4: of of.
Speaker 3: Of like all of the time, yeah, or it's like
Speaker 3: you drink water, wine, fish, and bread.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like that were like miracle substances from Jesus.
Speaker 1: You're gonna need some red wine for breakfast, guys.
Speaker 8: Wine lots of long walks exactly, and eventually you will
Speaker 8: walk on water and you'll be using tools that existed
Speaker 8: at the time rocks and yeah, tweets.
Speaker 1: I've been enjoying. Benny Feldman tweeted baby Seinfeld, what's the
Speaker 1: deal with this food airplane? And then Christy Amagucci Man
Speaker 1: just tweeted a happy Folds incest commercial to all who celebrate.
Speaker 1: If you're not familiar with the Folds incest commercial, I
Speaker 1: highly suggest you go find him on Twitter at the
Speaker 1: Wopple House and yeah, oh Man, just the sexual the
Speaker 1: thickest sexual tention I've ever seen on a filmed piece
Speaker 1: of on a moving picture. And it's between brother and
Speaker 1: sister in a like mainstream coffee commercial that seems like
Speaker 1: it was shot to like appear on the Today Show,
Speaker 1: and they're just like within seconds of fucking each other
Speaker 1: on the kitchen accounter when their parents walk in. Anyways,
Speaker 1: you can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore. O'Brien,
Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter at daily Zeitgeist. We're
Speaker 1: at the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook
Speaker 1: fan page and a website, daily zeitgeist dot com, where
Speaker 1: we post our episode and our footnotes no where we
Speaker 1: link off to the information that we talked about in
Speaker 1: today's episode, as well as a song that we think
Speaker 1: you might enjoy. Mild Is there a song that you
Speaker 1: think people might enjoy?
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a new track from one of my
Speaker 3: favorite producers, Fred Again, that came out over the weekend,
Speaker 3: featuring Baby Keeam. You know, keeping a West Coast But yeah,
Speaker 3: this is Fred Again and Baby Keen. It's Baby Keem.
Speaker 3: Is called leave Me Alone. It's one word and if
Speaker 3: you liked any of the electronic music that actually just
Speaker 3: in the past.
Speaker 2: You're gonna like this one. So check out leave Me
Speaker 2: Alone Fred Again with Baby Keen.
Speaker 1: All Right, we will link off to that in the
Speaker 1: footnotes to Daily Zeitgeist is a production by Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart
Speaker 1: Radio app podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 1: That is going to do it for us this morning,
Speaker 1: back this afternoon to tell you what's trending, and we
Speaker 1: will talk to y'all. Then bye bye