1
00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:04,519
Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to Season three, seventeen, Episode

2
00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:08,920
Speaker 1: two of Guys Yeah, production of iHeart Radio. This is

3
00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,400
Speaker 1: a podcast where we take a deep dive into America's

4
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,920
Speaker 1: share consciousness. And it's Tuesday, December twelfth, twenty twenty three.

5
00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,200
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, to do twelve. You know what that means.

6
00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,640
Speaker 3: Oh, it's National Ambrosia Day for you people, Marsh Salad,

7
00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:29,120
Speaker 3: It's National point Setia Day. It's nation it's the International

8
00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,880
Speaker 3: Universal Health Coverage Day. Yeah, we fuck with that National

9
00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,720
Speaker 3: dingling Day. I do have no clue what the fuck

10
00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,159
Speaker 3: that is. And Ginger Bread has to pay street. No,

11
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,040
Speaker 3: it's got a picture of Sade like on the phone.

12
00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,360
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, it's a data call people that you

13
00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:45,239
Speaker 3: haven't heard.

14
00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,159
Speaker 2: From in a while. All right, well yeah, why not?

15
00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,920
Speaker 2: You know, just check in. It's called yeah, check in

16
00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,000
Speaker 2: on Sandy. He's only up there in the whole year.

17
00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,600
Speaker 1: Nobody ever follow me. That's why Jim Allen, what's such

18
00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:56,400
Speaker 1: an asshole?

19
00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,960
Speaker 2: Right? No one asks what he wants for christ?

20
00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:05,639
Speaker 1: Well, my name's Jack O'Brien aka sucking around this candy cane.

21
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,600
Speaker 1: Why don't this taste like shit? Peppermint candy should be

22
00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,920
Speaker 1: out loud and I will fight about it. This courtesy

23
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:20,480
Speaker 1: of a Segar Full twelve twenty nine E Seegarfu Yeah,

24
00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,479
Speaker 1: E C careful anyways to the tune of rocket around

25
00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,679
Speaker 1: the Candy Cane or rocking around the Christmas Tree. About

26
00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,560
Speaker 1: the weird phenomenon of being able to use a peppermint

27
00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,479
Speaker 1: stick as a straw in an orange. I don't trust it.

28
00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,880
Speaker 1: I'm going to try it out intrigue Miles when I'm

29
00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,319
Speaker 1: thrilled to be joined as always by my co host,

30
00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,080
Speaker 1: mister Miles Grass.

31
00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:45,200
Speaker 4: It's Miles Ray.

32
00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 3: Yes, it's the Lord of Lancasham shouting out his very

33
00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,559
Speaker 3: old Los Angeles Bracers who have won the n season

34
00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:51,440
Speaker 3: NBA Tournament.

35
00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:53,440
Speaker 2: Such a fantastic victory for us.

36
00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,720
Speaker 3: Also shout out to the Dodgers for bringing me one

37
00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,400
Speaker 3: step closer to be Not only am I Hideo NoHo,

38
00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,720
Speaker 3: but I am now show Hey Smoke Tany because he's

39
00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,200
Speaker 3: also wearing the Dodger blue coming up. So it's just

40
00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,840
Speaker 3: a very very exciting time to be an Angelino and

41
00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,839
Speaker 3: and sports fan and and fair Weather as well.

42
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,480
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, well, we are thrilled to be joined in

43
00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,400
Speaker 1: our third seat by an award winning journalist who's worked

44
00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,720
Speaker 1: for places like The Washington Post, in the La Times,

45
00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,400
Speaker 1: the Financial Times of London. It's also the author of

46
00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,800
Speaker 1: the books The Jakarta Method, Washington's Anti Communist Crusade, and

47
00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,880
Speaker 1: The Mass Murder Program That Shaped Our World and more

48
00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:34,160
Speaker 1: recently If We Burn, the Mass Protest Decade and The

49
00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,600
Speaker 1: Missing Revolution. Please welcome to the show, Vincent.

50
00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:42,120
Speaker 4: Bebe Hell, thank you for having me.

51
00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:43,240
Speaker 1: Thanks for doing that.

52
00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's tomorrow. Really National ambrogiade? Is that a real

53
00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:47,320
Speaker 4: thing to do? Yeah?

54
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,280
Speaker 2: No, it's legit. There's an entire website that just has

55
00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,960
Speaker 2: every day there's something nonsensical or of deep consequence.

56
00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,400
Speaker 3: Yes, the same time, Yeah, exactly, runs the gamut from

57
00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,840
Speaker 3: sensical to deeply nonsense, deeply nonsensey Yeah, but yeah, Like.

58
00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:09,960
Speaker 1: Mainly it's consumer groups. Corporate groups are lobbyists just naming

59
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,840
Speaker 1: something a day to yeah, give themselves a reason to

60
00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:18,880
Speaker 1: collect a paycheck. Exactly, exactly, the bullshit economy thrives. We

61
00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,520
Speaker 1: like to cover the bullshit economy as much as possible.

62
00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:24,600
Speaker 1: And you're coming to us from London.

63
00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:25,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm in London.

64
00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:26,000
Speaker 2: Now.

65
00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,600
Speaker 4: We've heard Los Angeles by the end of the year

66
00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,880
Speaker 4: for you know, home for the holidays, but I'm currently

67
00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:32,239
Speaker 4: in the United Kingdom.

68
00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 2: Is that where you? Is that your home base at

69
00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:34,400
Speaker 2: the moment.

70
00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:36,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, it has been. I mean I've been on the

71
00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,720
Speaker 4: road like actually for years for the second book, between

72
00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,920
Speaker 4: South Paulo and London often, but I'm like at the

73
00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,560
Speaker 4: end of this book tour, I've yeah, resettled into London

74
00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:45,960
Speaker 4: for a bit.

75
00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:46,560
Speaker 2: Cool.

76
00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,200
Speaker 1: Cool, And you've been at some of the protests in

77
00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:55,400
Speaker 1: London for you know, Palestinian rights and survival and.

78
00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,440
Speaker 3: Depending where you get your news, I heard it was

79
00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,480
Speaker 3: a pro homans.

80
00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,000
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, I kind of yeah, yeah, I've been. Yeah,

81
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,520
Speaker 4: I've been at the protest weekly here, like not far

82
00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,760
Speaker 4: from from from where I am now. Yeah, absolutely, and

83
00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:16,680
Speaker 4: like uh absolutely that presentation they tried it here certainly.

84
00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,040
Speaker 4: I mean the government here is quite committed to demonizing

85
00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:25,680
Speaker 4: anyone like to the left of I don't know, Joe

86
00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,279
Speaker 4: Biden even or even to the left of Richuye Snak.

87
00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,080
Speaker 4: So yeah, there was there was quite a big narrative

88
00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,400
Speaker 4: that was either antient, like mostly anti Semitic, or quite

89
00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:35,560
Speaker 4: about supporting Hamas. And then when I went there, you know,

90
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,400
Speaker 4: even though I should have known better, I even kind

91
00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:39,719
Speaker 4: of expected to see some elements maybe there are out there,

92
00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:41,680
Speaker 4: but what I found was like quite a lot of

93
00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:42,919
Speaker 4: families and kids, and.

94
00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,359
Speaker 1: Quite like if they're out there, they'll find there.

95
00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:46,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

96
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,360
Speaker 4: No, That's something that's kind of what I've been working on,

97
00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,160
Speaker 4: is that you can if the if a protest is

98
00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,840
Speaker 4: large enough, you can usually find an element in the crowd.

99
00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,680
Speaker 4: You can usually find a fact to support your narrative

100
00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:00,000
Speaker 4: if you look hard enough.

101
00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, And sometimes the narrative will be, you know, anti Semitism,

102
00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,599
Speaker 1: and sometimes it'll be they just like really fuck with America.

103
00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,080
Speaker 1: They just want to like be America, just like whatever

104
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,280
Speaker 1: honors their preconceived notions coming.

105
00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,280
Speaker 4: In this This rises to the top quite almost all

106
00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,000
Speaker 4: the time. Usually when you signed a cadre of US

107
00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,800
Speaker 4: based or correspondence for the US media to cover some

108
00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,160
Speaker 4: uprising in some part of the world, someone will see

109
00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,440
Speaker 4: a desire to become junior like the League America, which

110
00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,480
Speaker 4: often like shocked and horrified some of the actual people

111
00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,280
Speaker 4: that I met that put together protest movements in the

112
00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,679
Speaker 4: last fifteen years. But it almost always happens.

113
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, so we're going to talk about a

114
00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,600
Speaker 1: lot of that stuff. Your second book is an amazing

115
00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,159
Speaker 1: read and you know, really touches on a lot of

116
00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,880
Speaker 1: the stuff that we talk to talk about on a

117
00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,640
Speaker 1: regular basis on this show. But before we get to

118
00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,400
Speaker 1: any of it, we do like to get to know

119
00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,560
Speaker 1: our guests a little bit better and to ask you

120
00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,800
Speaker 1: what is something from your search history that is revealing

121
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:03,760
Speaker 1: about who you are?

122
00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,440
Speaker 4: So this one is a bit too obvious because it

123
00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:09,760
Speaker 4: is kind of like quite on brand. But the only

124
00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:11,960
Speaker 4: thing that I searched for today on Google other than

125
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,520
Speaker 4: how to look at your own Google search history in

126
00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:19,599
Speaker 4: preparation to answer that question is Melay inauguration. I wanted

127
00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,000
Speaker 4: to see the ways in which the new president of

128
00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,599
Speaker 4: Argentina had been covered by the English language press. He

129
00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,839
Speaker 4: took power yesterday. He wanted to see what he had done,

130
00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,640
Speaker 4: how sort of controversial he tried to be at the

131
00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,279
Speaker 4: ceremony and what people picked up on from that, from

132
00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:36,560
Speaker 4: that takeover.

133
00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:37,920
Speaker 1: And what would you find?

134
00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,680
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, he's like a super hyper anti political guy.

135
00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:44,120
Speaker 4: Do you know about the guy that I'm talking about?

136
00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,039
Speaker 4: He has cyberns, He's an anarcho capital. He's like a

137
00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:50,719
Speaker 4: real resident Reddit president. If readit became a president. Yeah,

138
00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,720
Speaker 4: it's the first Reddit republic. I think Argentina starting twenty

139
00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,640
Speaker 4: twenty three, and he toned down things a little bit yesterday.

140
00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,920
Speaker 4: He tried to do you know, I think he's trying

141
00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:02,000
Speaker 4: to figure out wha to actually govern the country, whereas

142
00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,080
Speaker 4: his campaign was really about I'm going to destroy the

143
00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:06,680
Speaker 4: state entirely. We're going to get rid of the pace,

144
00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,080
Speaker 4: so we're going to bring in the dollar. I've cloned

145
00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,080
Speaker 4: all of my dogs and they, you know, they speak

146
00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:12,720
Speaker 4: to me. He tried. I think he tried to turn

147
00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:14,360
Speaker 4: it down a little bit. He did say that it's

148
00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:15,760
Speaker 4: not yeah, I just a dog.

149
00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,320
Speaker 3: He had so many videos that were like felt like

150
00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,680
Speaker 3: low rate, like TikToker type shit, where he's like this

151
00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:26,360
Speaker 3: fucking bureaucracy done gone, I'm tearing it up physically for you,

152
00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:27,960
Speaker 3: and you're like, wow, okay, very well.

153
00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,640
Speaker 4: His thing was the chainsaw, right, like I'm gonna bring it.

154
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,000
Speaker 4: I'm gonna take a chain saw. And it's like you

155
00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,080
Speaker 4: know in in South America that has a lot of

156
00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,920
Speaker 4: cons you know, there's like the destruction of the Amazon,

157
00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:40,880
Speaker 4: which is a big thing that his friend Girable scenario

158
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,400
Speaker 4: was all about helping to get done. So that was

159
00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,480
Speaker 4: this thing, Yeah, I'm gonna I'm going to destroy the

160
00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:47,320
Speaker 4: state and then obviously and then what will grow out

161
00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,920
Speaker 4: of the rubble will be some amazing capitalist utopia, right.

162
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:56,280
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, just destroy everything and then let the magic happen.

163
00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,360
Speaker 1: Also kind of a logic that I think people on

164
00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,960
Speaker 1: both sides have engaged and that you talk about in

165
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:03,360
Speaker 1: your book.

166
00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,720
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's a nice it's a nice it's an

167
00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,880
Speaker 4: appealing I mean, he's yeah, it's an appealing theory, right,

168
00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:10,840
Speaker 4: I mean, this is another thing that he said. He's like, oh,

169
00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,040
Speaker 4: this is like the uh my election is like the

170
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,200
Speaker 4: follow the Soviet Union, which is like, again, that was

171
00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:17,800
Speaker 4: the idea. You know, there was the there was the

172
00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,480
Speaker 4: glorious moment that was broadcast to the world like the

173
00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,280
Speaker 4: day of the brilliant well fell. But then what a

174
00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:26,360
Speaker 4: lot of people actually went through afterwards was that democracy

175
00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,400
Speaker 4: and markets didn't just grow out of nowhere. Things. Things

176
00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,520
Speaker 4: turned out to be quite difficult for quite a lot

177
00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,760
Speaker 4: of people afterwards. So you know, that thinking it's you know,

178
00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:35,360
Speaker 4: it's it's a feeling, the idea that all you have

179
00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,559
Speaker 4: to do is smash everything up in some magical force

180
00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,880
Speaker 4: will will provide the solution. But it just doesn't tend

181
00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:41,480
Speaker 4: to work out that.

182
00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,120
Speaker 3: Way, right, because the thing I got for just at

183
00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,000
Speaker 3: least from like gleaning the headlines, sounded like him just

184
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,240
Speaker 3: basically saying like here comes austerity. Yeah that was great,

185
00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,120
Speaker 3: but he's like, there's going to be some hard times,

186
00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,959
Speaker 3: like cause I'm it's fuck, it's it's austerity time, baby.

187
00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean things are bad. I mean things are

188
00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,240
Speaker 4: right for someone like him, right, right, the inflation is

189
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,319
Speaker 4: very high in Argentina. You could see why an anti

190
00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,800
Speaker 4: political sort of attack on the system kind of I'm

191
00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,959
Speaker 4: an outsider candidate might be able to do well. But yeah,

192
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,800
Speaker 4: I mean it's absolutely going to be awful. I mean,

193
00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,880
Speaker 4: even I think is I don't think. I don't think

194
00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,600
Speaker 4: he knows exactly how it's going to go, and neither's anybody.

195
00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:23,319
Speaker 1: Else, right, is anti like because obviously, you know, your

196
00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:29,079
Speaker 1: book covers a anti establishment impulse that we saw sweep

197
00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:34,600
Speaker 1: around the globe. We have covered a lot just that

198
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,240
Speaker 1: that impulse in the United States. The fact that, you know,

199
00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:43,880
Speaker 1: the Trump presidency kind of came about because Bannon saw

200
00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,440
Speaker 1: an impulse that was like somebody's gonna win. Who's not

201
00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:52,360
Speaker 1: the who is like railing against institutions? Right, How do

202
00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:57,200
Speaker 1: you like, do you see that kind of continuing, unabated

203
00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,280
Speaker 1: picking up steam. How do you think about that? I

204
00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,040
Speaker 1: know that's a kind of a big question, and we'll

205
00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,240
Speaker 1: get into more specific permutations of it.

206
00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,079
Speaker 4: But well, the way that this is gone on a

207
00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,520
Speaker 4: case by case basis, and I hope this doesn't have

208
00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,360
Speaker 4: to be the pattern that every single political community in

209
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,880
Speaker 4: the entire world goes through, is that someone gets elected

210
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:17,600
Speaker 4: that says, I'm going to tear down the whole system.

211
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,080
Speaker 4: I'm against everything. I'm an outsider and like I'm from California.

212
00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,480
Speaker 4: Like Arnold Schwarzeninger was one of these, you know, he's

213
00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:24,920
Speaker 4: one of them, you know, way ahead of the curve

214
00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:26,320
Speaker 4: on this one, and it was a ha ha haa,

215
00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:27,480
Speaker 4: we're voting Arnold Schwarsinger.

216
00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:27,800
Speaker 5: Ha ha ha.

217
00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:33,480
Speaker 4: Often what happens is that that person, unsurprisingly doesn't do

218
00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,320
Speaker 4: a good job, and then they bring in the guy

219
00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:39,600
Speaker 4: who like really knows how to actually do the job.

220
00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:41,640
Speaker 4: So after Arnold Schwarzeninger, we get Jerry Brown, who's like

221
00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,000
Speaker 4: actually from the seventies. After Bolsonaro and Brazil, you like

222
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,480
Speaker 4: bring back Lula, who was the last guy who finished

223
00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,400
Speaker 4: the presidency with really high approval ratings. That's like tends

224
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,960
Speaker 4: to be. What happens in each case is that, oh yeah,

225
00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,800
Speaker 4: it was really appealing this idea that being from outside

226
00:10:57,800 --> 00:10:59,679
Speaker 4: the system, which is usually like half a lie, right,

227
00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,280
Speaker 4: Like you're usually like you're encouraged not to pretend that

228
00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,600
Speaker 4: you're really an outsider, even if you're not right. And

229
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,840
Speaker 4: then oh yeah, that's that's not actually how you govern.

230
00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,920
Speaker 4: And then you replace that the anti political candidate, the

231
00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:15,000
Speaker 4: anti political politician, with like the most establishment person you know,

232
00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,000
Speaker 4: after Trump, you get you get Joe Biden, who's like

233
00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,880
Speaker 4: the guy that Obama grabbed in two thousand and eight

234
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,240
Speaker 4: to put on his campaign to prove that he was

235
00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,800
Speaker 4: kind of a regular Democrat, that he wasn't too wild, right, Yeah, yeah,

236
00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:28,880
Speaker 4: But then again, but I think all of this anti

237
00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:33,600
Speaker 4: political sentiment is like the wrong answer to a real question,

238
00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,200
Speaker 4: which is why is it that everyone feels that governments

239
00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,120
Speaker 4: don't represent them properly? Why is it that everyone wants

240
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,320
Speaker 4: to say fuck you to the system whenever they can?

241
00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,960
Speaker 4: And that question I think still remains unanswered. So like

242
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:49,480
Speaker 4: the under the underlying crisis is still unresolved. But I

243
00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,360
Speaker 4: think one by one, states or nations are realizing, Oh

244
00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,120
Speaker 4: well this this response doesn't work right.

245
00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, just all getting the wrong the same wrong answer.

246
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,800
Speaker 4: Well, he lays a different type of wrong answer, like

247
00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,040
Speaker 4: the enery capitalist approaches a relatively new one. Usually you

248
00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,079
Speaker 4: got right populism or like dictatorship or like whatever Trump is,

249
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,920
Speaker 4: or dictatorship justification like in Posnaro, but like the really

250
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,959
Speaker 4: online like libertary meme. Guy, that's a new one.

251
00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, hell yeah, it's gonna be hilarious. The walls are

252
00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:23,520
Speaker 1: gonna be worth it alone.

253
00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

254
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,640
Speaker 3: Well, and ram with Swami didn't do too good because

255
00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,720
Speaker 3: he was peeing on a hot mic over the weekend

256
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,240
Speaker 3: during like a Twitter spaces thing. So our our meme

257
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,800
Speaker 3: lord as president may not may not come to fruition

258
00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:35,560
Speaker 3: this time around.

259
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:36,120
Speaker 2: Oh he did.

260
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,679
Speaker 1: He did a full naked gun a full piss.

261
00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,880
Speaker 2: And they're like, uh, I don't think came back like

262
00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:43,520
Speaker 2: oh so sorry, my bad.

263
00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a that's a true like as somebody who

264
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,120
Speaker 1: spends a lot of time on Zoom with air air

265
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,800
Speaker 1: pods and that's a constant nightmare of mind.

266
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:52,280
Speaker 2: Yeah that would happen.

267
00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:57,240
Speaker 1: What oh no, what un what is something you think

268
00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,480
Speaker 1: is overrated movies? Wow?

269
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:06,920
Speaker 4: Just generally, Yeah, moving picture, moving pictures. They don't why

270
00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:08,240
Speaker 4: are pictures? Why are they moving?

271
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:10,560
Speaker 2: Make them stop?

272
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:11,080
Speaker 1: No?

273
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,439
Speaker 4: Thanks? Yeah, you know it's fine. They're fine, but had enough.

274
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:16,720
Speaker 4: I still I would give them some ratings, but they're

275
00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:18,360
Speaker 4: they're overrated generally.

276
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,559
Speaker 2: What happened was the recent hurt?

277
00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:21,760
Speaker 1: You?

278
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,800
Speaker 2: Who hurt? What was your most recent pain? Cinema?

279
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,679
Speaker 4: No, no pain. I have like a dull adult, like

280
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,640
Speaker 4: a dull feeling of pleasure when I think of them.

281
00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,480
Speaker 4: But you know that's that's about it, right, right, right,

282
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,920
Speaker 4: which is a lower rating than society gives the movies.

283
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,640
Speaker 4: I think it's been great so far. I'm over, I'm done.

284
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,240
Speaker 1: We talk a lot about movies like filling in for

285
00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,920
Speaker 1: people's like images of how things operate. Like when when

286
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,760
Speaker 1: you ask somebody to imagine a country they've never been to,

287
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,240
Speaker 1: they're generally going to be like, Okay, well I think

288
00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,240
Speaker 1: I saw that in like George Clooney's Syriana, or you know,

289
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,240
Speaker 1: I don't think he directed that. But and you're somebody

290
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,200
Speaker 1: who has like been to you you go to those

291
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,840
Speaker 1: countries and like you know, learn the languages, yeah, and

292
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,120
Speaker 1: meet the people there? Is that? Do you think that's

293
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:13,880
Speaker 1: partially where it comes from. Or are you just like

294
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:15,439
Speaker 1: think they suck?

295
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:17,960
Speaker 4: No, I think they're okay. I've I mean to move

296
00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:19,840
Speaker 4: this into a more serious territory now that you bring

297
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,720
Speaker 4: it and bring that up. I guess with this book,

298
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,680
Speaker 4: I did think a lot about technology and what is

299
00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,160
Speaker 4: new and strange about the way that we live compared

300
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,720
Speaker 4: to whatever twenty years ago, and like a big narrative

301
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,000
Speaker 4: about the mass protest that I cover. And again this

302
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:36,640
Speaker 4: is not why I said movies. I'm just starting to

303
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,680
Speaker 4: think about it. Yeah, is that all its social media?

304
00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,920
Speaker 4: Social media is a new technology. Social media is technology. Like,

305
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,840
Speaker 4: the more I considered what was going on in the

306
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,359
Speaker 4: last twenty years, I started to like think about photography

307
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,240
Speaker 4: as technology and like I'm pretty in the book. Yeah, yeah,

308
00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,800
Speaker 4: like I do it really quickly. But like in the

309
00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,080
Speaker 4: history of humanity, it's pretty new that we're able to

310
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,880
Speaker 4: see stuff that's not happening like directly from Yeah, we're

311
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,640
Speaker 4: like photography. Definitionally, everything that you're seeing in a photograph

312
00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,240
Speaker 4: or a moving picture isn't happening anymore, right, is it

313
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:15,160
Speaker 4: is a technological trick to reproduce the light patterns that

314
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,080
Speaker 4: makes the human brain think that they're seeing a thing

315
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,040
Speaker 4: that did happen in the past but is no longer happening,

316
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,240
Speaker 4: and like, obviously that's not going away. We're gonna have

317
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,840
Speaker 4: to learn we're learning to do with that as as humanity.

318
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:25,880
Speaker 4: But I don't know, for whatever reason, I've just been

319
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,680
Speaker 4: thinking about it a lot. Yeah, it's kind of strange.

320
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:30,240
Speaker 4: I mean it's kind of strange. We come home after

321
00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,480
Speaker 4: being outside and then we watch a screen of people

322
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:34,920
Speaker 4: pretending to live lives.

323
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:36,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I.

324
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,960
Speaker 1: Mean we're still not over the the like ability to

325
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:44,040
Speaker 1: look at images or short you know, video clips of

326
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,960
Speaker 1: things actually happening around the world, and now we're moving

327
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,920
Speaker 1: into an era where it's like or things that somebody

328
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:55,000
Speaker 1: just edited, you know, or deep faked to make. So

329
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,440
Speaker 1: like not that really matters, because, like we said, when

330
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 1: you're using an entire globes worth of like inputs of

331
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,160
Speaker 1: you can find somebody doing anything you need them to do.

332
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,000
Speaker 4: And yeah, exactly, but yeah, but like the deep think,

333
00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,960
Speaker 4: the deep think thing is weird, right, Like, yeah, it's

334
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:13,640
Speaker 4: gonna we're gonna have to learn to deal with it

335
00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,240
Speaker 4: as like a human race, Like how do we because

336
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,920
Speaker 4: the human bodies constitute to react to things as if

337
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,840
Speaker 4: they're really happening, right, Like a lot of what I

338
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,280
Speaker 4: saw powering mass protests in twenty tens was like a

339
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,920
Speaker 4: deep revulsion, like a like a like a visceral disgust

340
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,200
Speaker 4: at something really horrible happening. And like imagine because like

341
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,280
Speaker 4: the human body, when it sees like violence, it kind

342
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,800
Speaker 4: of gets keyed up to maybe either run away or participate.

343
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,200
Speaker 4: Like imagine, now, you know, in ten to twenty years,

344
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,080
Speaker 4: we're able to see scenes of violence that aren't happening

345
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,120
Speaker 4: at all, Yet the human body still responds as if

346
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,880
Speaker 4: it's a yeah, it's material reality. Anyways. I don't know,

347
00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:50,880
Speaker 4: I don't know what any of that means or what

348
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:52,440
Speaker 4: we're supposed to do about it, but I spend a

349
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 4: lot of time thinking about how new all it all

350
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:54,680
Speaker 4: kind of is.

351
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it also brings up this other point,

352
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,480
Speaker 1: like that the guy who I'm invented the loudspeaker, like

353
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:06,200
Speaker 1: perfected it in the early twentieth century always felt like responsible,

354
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:12,200
Speaker 1: like doomed throughout his life because he had altered, just minutely,

355
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,560
Speaker 1: the ability for somebody to speak to people who weren't

356
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,600
Speaker 1: within a twenty foot radius, you know, without raising his

357
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,280
Speaker 1: voice like that. He was like, I feel partially responsible

358
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,360
Speaker 1: for the rise of fascism in the thirties.

359
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that is that a real story that he.

360
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,480
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure unless I got my sources wrong a

361
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,520
Speaker 1: long time ago. But yeah, like he he really felt

362
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,440
Speaker 1: like he had fucked up, and well.

363
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:41,359
Speaker 4: It's interesting. It's interesting that he would hone in on

364
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,200
Speaker 4: that phenomenon because arguably he did help make fascism happen,

365
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,800
Speaker 4: but he also helped make like a million other things happen.

366
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:49,320
Speaker 4: Like why is it that the one thing that he

367
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 4: thinks right that he gift gifted to or the you know,

368
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:54,680
Speaker 4: the poison.

369
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:56,120
Speaker 1: Big story at the time, I feel like.

370
00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess it was all over it.

371
00:17:58,680 --> 00:17:59,760
Speaker 2: Yeah it was a good thing.

372
00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:01,800
Speaker 3: Like at a family dinner, he's like, well, y'all, don't

373
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,240
Speaker 3: feel guilty about basically bringing on fascism.

374
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,639
Speaker 4: So because you would, like everything that happens after photography,

375
00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,520
Speaker 4: and then everything that happens after the ability for of

376
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,320
Speaker 4: us to record sound is like you can't undo it.

377
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,320
Speaker 4: It's like everything after nineteen thirty as a result of

378
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,040
Speaker 4: the recordings of sound, you know.

379
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly, what's something you think is underrated?

380
00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,040
Speaker 4: I'm changing this now because I just wanted to mention ambrosia,

381
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,360
Speaker 4: Ambrosia salad. A yeah, so it is my middle name,

382
00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:35,040
Speaker 4: number one ambrose Okay, oh nice. And I used to

383
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,360
Speaker 4: know a performer back in San Francisco whose drag name

384
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,280
Speaker 4: was Ambrosia salad and I thought that was very good.

385
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,760
Speaker 4: So yeah, that's that count me out of that question

386
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,280
Speaker 4: because it allowed me to yeah, that's my Yeah. I mean,

387
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,000
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if in if the dish is named

388
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,040
Speaker 4: after or like I think maybe the old Roman name

389
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,199
Speaker 4: is named after like the necture of the gods, and

390
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,960
Speaker 4: then that's also what the etymological story behind the salad

391
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 4: is that right? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

392
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,119
Speaker 2: But apparently it's like the earliest recipes are from like

393
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,359
Speaker 2: the nineteenth century, Like people have been tinkering with the

394
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,360
Speaker 2: sweet ambrosia for a long time and now it's we're

395
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,880
Speaker 2: just at a place where it's like whipped cream and

396
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:16,959
Speaker 2: just sugar and fruit taped things.

397
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:22,840
Speaker 1: Ambrosia definitely like has its proponents to a level, Like

398
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,040
Speaker 1: I don't I am not experienced enough with ambrosia to

399
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:30,000
Speaker 1: like have a strong take on it, but I do

400
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,040
Speaker 1: respect something where people are like, yeah, we're just naming

401
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 1: the ship.

402
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,880
Speaker 5: That after the nextro of the Gods. That's how good

403
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:41,400
Speaker 5: it is? Yeah, like it's it's one of those things.

404
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,320
Speaker 5: It's not like Gore may but when you eat it,

405
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,000
Speaker 5: like how the fuck am I gonna get mad at

406
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,400
Speaker 5: like fruit and cream together, Like, yeah, it's not offensive.

407
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,760
Speaker 4: It is often upsetting when like a really good name

408
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:57,400
Speaker 4: is given to something that is not good, Like Amazon

409
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,040
Speaker 4: makes me upset. Yeah, because the Amazon as a forest,

410
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 4: the Amazon has like like a classical myth, are like

411
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,119
Speaker 4: both very cool things. Yes, and then Jeff Bezos turned

412
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,360
Speaker 4: like a mail delivery company into Amazon. I think that's

413
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,960
Speaker 4: not fair somehow. There's like injustice done there. I think

414
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,880
Speaker 4: that Amazon we need to think of either the Island

415
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,879
Speaker 4: of Warriors back in antiquity or like the Amazon forest,

416
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,760
Speaker 4: not like how do you order something.

417
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 2: It'll really piss you off.

418
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,680
Speaker 3: When he was trying to call it amazing and someone

419
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:30,960
Speaker 3: was like, you should change it to amperzone.

420
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,439
Speaker 2: Seems like a good idea. What about amazing?

421
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:36,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

422
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,720
Speaker 4: Elon Musk did try to name like twenty five things

423
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:41,480
Speaker 4: X and everyone in his entire life was like, you

424
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 4: can't do that, that's stupid. Until he became rich enough

425
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,120
Speaker 4: that he could.

426
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,440
Speaker 3: And now it's x everything isn't like isn't the AI

427
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,320
Speaker 3: company x AI too? Like it's just every he's exifiring. Fuck,

428
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,160
Speaker 3: he's Wayne Campbell. He's Wayne Campbell from Wayne.

429
00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 1: He wishes he was Wayne Campbell from Wayne's World. Who

430
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:03,360
Speaker 1: thinks that seems to be he's incorporating all of his mannerisms.

431
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

432
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,600
Speaker 1: The X thing is like is like the producer who

433
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 1: just really wanted to put a mechanical spider in his movie,

434
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 1: and like Kevin Smith was working for him on a

435
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 1: supermanscript and he was like, what about like a giant

436
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,400
Speaker 1: robot spider and they are like, it doesn't really make

437
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 1: sense for this particular thing. And then he like watches

438
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:26,720
Speaker 1: the guy's movie.

439
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:27,680
Speaker 2: Wild Wild West.

440
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 1: Movie that takes place in the wild West somehow has

441
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,440
Speaker 1: a robotic spider in it. There he got his fucking robot.

442
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:37,399
Speaker 4: It's steam powered.

443
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,920
Speaker 2: That's how I get around all the technological.

444
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, just taking just having an idea and never taking

445
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 1: the number, the sheer number of know's that you are

446
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,880
Speaker 1: receiving as any indication other than they just they don't

447
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 1: get it.

448
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 4: It's the world that doesn't understand. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

449
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,920
Speaker 1: All right, let's take a quick break and we'll come

450
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,080
Speaker 1: back and get into the book.

451
00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:58,719
Speaker 4: We'll be right back.

452
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 1: Yep, and we're back. And you know, one of the

453
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 1: kind of central questions that I went into the book

454
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 1: with and that I just think is interesting and you

455
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,400
Speaker 1: kind of open up talking about is just the way

456
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 1: that like a you know, we're interested inherently in the

457
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 1: Zech the idea that there is zechgeister, a collective consciousness.

458
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 1: And you know, you open your book, which is about

459
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,400
Speaker 1: like one of these things where for a decade there

460
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 1: were these movements that seemed to resemble each other in

461
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 1: some ways, kind of often superficial, but spreading around the globe.

462
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 1: You also open your book talking about the spirit of

463
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, the idea where like revolution is happening

464
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 1: across the globe all at once, almost like there's something

465
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 1: in the air, right, And this is you know, sixty

466
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 1: years before social media, and you know, these protests and

467
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 1: uprising sweep around the world and even in communist countries.

468
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 1: So I'd just be interested in first just for framing

469
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 1: of the entire conversation, like hearing you speak about what

470
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 1: are the dynamics that are at play there, Like how

471
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: do you think something like that happens.

472
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, So whether or not we really truly understand,

473
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 4: I think we can come up with theories. But historically,

474
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:39,120
Speaker 4: revolutions uprisings are come in waves, they cluster around certain years.

475
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 4: And you know, the best way we have to explain

476
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 4: this is people hear about things happening us where they think,

477
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 4: maybe I can do this here, even if their conditions

478
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 4: are different, even if the things they're protesting against are different.

479
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 4: And I think media has to be part of this story,

480
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 4: right because before media would be impossible for people to

481
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 4: find in Germany, to find out what's happening in France,

482
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 4: and you know, unless somebody came and told them that's

483
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 4: the story. So even like in eighteen forty eight, like

484
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 4: you know, the Spring of Nations in Europe, you saw

485
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 4: like common commonalities across countries, and I think you see

486
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 4: in a acceleration of that process the more media tied

487
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 4: we become. So nineteen sixty eight, you have quite a

488
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 4: lot of back and forth happening between Western Europe and

489
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 4: the United States, especially California, but also like they're doing

490
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 4: different things. Like if you just if you just like

491
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 4: look at the pictures of it, it may look the same,

492
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 4: but there's different things happening, and certainly the people in Prague,

493
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 4: or in China or in Egypt, which in my book

494
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 4: I kind of say that they all do kind of

495
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 4: have their own type of nineteen sixty eight. They're all

496
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 4: very different types of movements and protesting, very different types

497
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 4: of governments. But like this seems to be a thing

498
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 4: at least in the histories, in the history of revolution,

499
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 4: most serious thinkers do think that there is some kind

500
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 4: of like a zeitgeist of rebellion in the air, that

501
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 4: there are waves of rebellions, there are clusters of uprisings.

502
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 4: I think media has to be part of that story

503
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 4: about like again, we have to. That's something we as

504
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 4: an explanation, we pose on retroactively to make sense of

505
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 4: what's happened after it all explodes.

506
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's also the phenomenon of like parallel invention,

507
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: where you know, the light bulb is invented in multiple

508
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: places around the world, like within you know, months of

509
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 1: each other, like at least you know, years of each other,

510
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: And so we're all kind of working from the same

511
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: book and coming up with the same ideas. So yeah,

512
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: I'm just just interested. It's not really the central thesis

513
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: of your book, but just as somebody who spent a

514
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: lot of time thinking about that, I was curious to

515
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: hear your thoughts on that.

516
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean I guess Zeitgeist is kind of

517
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 4: a Galian idea, right, And like in this book and

518
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 4: in like this the understanding of what's supposed to be

519
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 4: happening in protests, there is kind of some like deep

520
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 4: Galian assumptions that there is kind of like a world

521
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 4: historical spirit like this, like history with the capital H

522
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 4: moves forward right in some grand and mystical way. And

523
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 4: so whether or not that's true or not, I think

524
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 4: we can you know, probably most people are not the Galiens,

525
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 4: but some people, but you know, I think a lot

526
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 4: of people do kind of have this deep, deep down

527
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 4: feeling or assumption that there is kind of like a

528
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 4: history with a capital H that moves forward and this Yeah,

529
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 4: this this ends up actually coming up in the book,

530
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 4: for better or worse.

531
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

532
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: Another thing you talk about is just this sense among

533
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: revolutionaries of and this is something that I've just noticed

534
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: across you know, reading about history of like the joy

535
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: that people feel, and reading about protests like the fading

536
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: out of these capitalist roles, and you know, you mentioned

537
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: the idea of a medieval carnival where they would kind

538
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: of topple hierarchies for a set period of time. In

539
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: the book Dawn of Everything, David Graeber talks about, like,

540
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 1: you know, doing archaeological studies of these tribal Native American

541
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 1: civilizations that have like that that was actually built into

542
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 1: the structure of how they operated, where there would be

543
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: these holidays where people would change and you know, the

544
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 1: chiefs or the police, the people who acted as the

545
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,719
Speaker 1: police would become clowns, and you know, just all of

546
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 1: these like switching of the roles the people had, so

547
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: and it was it was kind of built in that

548
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: if somebody had a really great hunting season, they would

549
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 1: then be kind of ritualistically humiliated in front of everybody

550
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: so that they were not attached to their kind of

551
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 1: hierarchical role. But yeah, I don't know, it's just interesting,

552
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 1: like giving people an environment where they can forget their

553
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: capitalist lives and dissolve into a collective seems to more

554
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: and more like connect with people. And I feel like

555
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: it is kind of an important part of the equation

556
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 1: and part of what makes me hopeful about you know,

557
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: the fact that there could be some people driven change,

558
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: right is how much there is just that that urge there.

559
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: But obviously you know, this is something you think about

560
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: and put in the book, So just curious to hear

561
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 1: your thoughts. Is that part of the thing that makes

562
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: you come away from this and still be helpful even

563
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: though the aims of the protesters often get swarded repeatedly

564
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 1: in these stories.

565
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's part of it. I mean, I guess the

566
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 4: main thing that makes me hopeful is that I came

567
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 4: away from this book that I did. You know, through

568
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 4: two hundred two hundred fifteen interviews in twelve countries, and

569
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 4: almost everyone, even if they had been, you know, apparently

570
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 4: defeated in the short term, had experienced some kind of

571
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 4: a crushing defeat. Almost no one had given up on

572
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 4: the idea of getting together with other human beings and

573
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 4: tried to build a better world. They had, you thought

574
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 4: about new strategies, they had thought about doing things differently.

575
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 4: They maybe had to leave their home country or gone

576
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 4: to jail, but they had not given up. And a

577
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 4: lot of people have said, even if they knew, even

578
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 4: after they knew, how things ultimately turned out even if

579
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 4: they now know that the story ended in disaster, they

580
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 4: would say things like I could relive that day every

581
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 4: day for the rest of my life. It's the most

582
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 4: alive that I've ever felt, and that feeling is something

583
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 4: that I will never stop reliving. And I think that

584
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 4: that feeling is related to not only what you said

585
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 4: about this historical practice of inverting hierarchies and sort of

586
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 4: creating more direct links between people that you see in

587
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 4: all kinds of any civilization, of any complexity. I think

588
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 4: you see these things, kinds of things popping up, the

589
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 4: medieval carnival, the case you just online have. I've read

590
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 4: a lot of Graver books. Graver's books been not that one.

591
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 4: But I think it's also related to that other phenomenon

592
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 4: we spoke about earlier, like the feeling right now, which

593
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 4: I think drives the elections of people like Schwartzenegger and

594
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 4: Trump and Bosono in me Lea that were not actually

595
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 4: in control of what's happening. The structures that you're supposed

596
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 4: to represent us are not actually representing us. There are

597
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 4: a few moments in your daily life when you really

598
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 4: feel that you're making history, that you're part of something

599
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 4: like is guys that you're actually work connecting with other

600
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 4: people and actually imposing your will in the most positive sense,

601
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 4: like trying to reshape reality in a way that actually

602
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 4: matters at all. And so when those feelings come around

603
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 4: for people in this day and age, at this level

604
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 4: of like social complexity and in a world of interconnected

605
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 4: political systems which I think it is right to believe

606
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 4: don't really represent us that well anymore, it feels so

607
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 4: incredibly powerful. It feels like this is something that I've

608
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 4: been starving for because the like right now, what I'm

609
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 4: actually doing feels like it's really changing things. And that

610
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 4: is a feeling that I think that even if we

611
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 4: didn't have to improve the global system, which I think

612
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 4: we do, it would It's it's like there's a deep

613
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 4: there's a deep yearning for that in humanity to connect

614
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 4: with other people and build something, connect with other people

615
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 4: and do something really like to make a difference, and

616
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 4: there's not we don't feel that way very often. Often

617
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 4: where you know a movie, there's.

618
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: Like a meaningless that has like been encoded into everything

619
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: that is pretty frustrating, and I think people assume might

620
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: be like something that we just like take for granted

621
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: is like part of day to day life, but it

622
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: really when you read you know, historical accounts and like

623
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: interviews with people who are parts of things like this

624
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: in your book, and it's really like there is something

625
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: that makes you feel alive, which suggest to me maybe

626
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: that's how we're supposed to feel, is like in our lives,

627
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: you know.

628
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, yeah, you don't feel a lot you know, Yeah,

629
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 4: you feel something when you know, like scroll in social

630
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 4: media all day and like get mad at a post

631
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 4: and then do a post and people get you. You

632
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 4: feel something. You don't exactly feel alive, right.

633
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not that omnipotence that like being in the

634
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,719
Speaker 3: streets or being the collective can kind of bring you

635
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: when you're just kind of yeah, when it's the digital

636
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 3: response version, you're getting to feel something, and I'm like,

637
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 3: I'm curious like in that, you know, like that feeling

638
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 3: that allows people to come together and be like, yeah,

639
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 3: you know what I'm I'm also not pleased. I'm angry

640
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 3: about this thing. You know in your book, you know,

641
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 3: for people who aren't fully aware, you're examining a lot

642
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 3: of these mass movements that you know, most of the

643
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 3: time didn't actually end up bringing about the change that

644
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 3: the people were seeking, and in fact, movements get co

645
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 3: opted and you know, can turn into, as you say,

646
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 3: like almost bringing the opposite effect of what they wanted initially, Right,

647
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 3: Is there something Do you think there is something woven

648
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 3: in that like that the Like, obviously there are very

649
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 3: politically minded activists and people who are organizing and understand

650
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 3: like maybe mechanically what has to happen, But because so

651
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 3: many are just sort of taken up by this larger

652
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 3: feeling that we kind of get stuck in the of

653
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 3: doing the explosive like this is our feedback to the

654
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 3: leaders of the world kind of thing, and then forgetting

655
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 3: what happens after that.

656
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 4: I think that, yes, partially, I think that. So the

657
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 4: phenomenon that I choose to build this history around is

658
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 4: mass protest that gets so big that they either overthrow

659
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 4: governments or fundamentally destabilized governments. So these are movements that

660
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 4: at first unexpectedly appear to be incredibly successful, Like so

661
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 4: enough people came on the streets that actually the president

662
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 4: or the dictator is like fleeing the country or is

663
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 4: so scared and so desperate to stay in power that

664
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 4: they want to that they'll give something up to the

665
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 4: people in the streets in order to stay in power. Now,

666
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 4: what happens next ends up being the focus of my book.

667
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 4: Is what I try to do is I go back

668
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 4: and say, well, what actually happened in the years that followed,

669
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 4: after a lot of the foreign journalists have stopped, you know,

670
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 4: producing the very inspiring images on screens around the planet,

671
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 4: What really happened? And to answer that question as to

672
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 4: what actually happened? I think is related to your question

673
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 4: someone indirectly, but related is that the way that we

674
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 4: are living starved of this feeling, starved of this actual

675
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 4: connection with other you know, we are like digitally quote

676
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 4: unquote connected because we're you know, we're we're sending you know,

677
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 4: messages on screens, but we're we're living more individualized lives

678
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 4: than I think most of humanity ever has. We are

679
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 4: often responding to like posts. This this way that we

680
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 4: have been living for several decades shaped the type of

681
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 4: the types of responses which were easiest to put together

682
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 4: to real injustice. They've shaped the types of things that

683
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 4: we did first when confronted with real abuses of power.

684
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 4: And I think that is yes, part of the story,

685
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 4: and a lot of a lot of the people had

686
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 4: this at the end, like you know, we at the

687
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 4: end of the book, you know, after I've interviewed everyone

688
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 4: asked them to look back in what happened, and a

689
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 4: lot of them said, yes, it was not only this

690
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 4: system that we thought that it had had been oppressing us,

691
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 4: but that shaped the way that we understood political change.

692
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 4: It shaped the way that we could put together responses

693
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 4: to injustice, and that ended up meaning that we couldn't

694
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 4: get through that first of apparent victory to the next step,

695
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 4: which was actually creating something better. So yeah, I do.

696
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 4: I do think it's all related. I think that we

697
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 4: we and then you know, that's part of the learning process, right,

698
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 4: That's part of the what happened in the twenty tens

699
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 4: is a lot of people got much further than they

700
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 4: expected and then realized where the barriers were. But I

701
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 4: think that the fact that we have been living this

702
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 4: way for so long is part of the reason that

703
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 4: explains why it was the mass protest that came together

704
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 4: very very quickly. That was the way that often was

705
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 4: the automatic response, Like why the twenty tens the dominant

706
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 4: mode of the twenty tens rather than other of these

707
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 4: you know, years of Uprising was mass protest or the

708
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 4: mass why it was a mass protest? Decide if you

709
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 4: want to use the sub top of my book.

710
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: You know, I think one of the things that you

711
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 1: end up pointing to is that a lot of these

712
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: protests were coming at the right time, right, there was

713
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 1: this energy and this desire, but they were specifically horizontally

714
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: organized or organized to resist leadership. And is that kind

715
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: of the big takeaway that you just you think that

716
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: future protests protest movements need to kind of take away

717
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: from this book, Is that some manner of organization, some

718
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: manner of like, you know, if you aren't prepared after

719
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 1: you create the change to step in to lead, somebody

720
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: is going to lead for you. Is that would that

721
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: be kind of the big you know, because there is

722
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: the example of this actually working, right, and the big

723
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: thing there was that the leftists who created the change

724
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: then involve themselves in national politics, right, So like would

725
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: you say that is the big takeaway that they just

726
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 1: need to be ready to organize and then lead.

727
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 4: That dynamic I think that you just outlined is goes

728
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 4: a big goes a long way towards explaining a lot

729
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 4: of what happened in many of the cases in the book.

730
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 4: There's like ten to thirteen depending on how you count them.

731
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 4: But that dynamic if you you know, if the book

732
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,280
Speaker 4: is indeed built around the question, how is it possible

733
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 4: that so many mass protests led to the opposite of

734
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 4: what they asked for? You've outlined I think, yeah, A

735
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 4: major part of the answer, which is that what happened

736
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 4: unexpectedly is that more people came out into the streets

737
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 4: than than was planned for. They joined a very specific

738
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 4: type of response to injustice, a very specific type of

739
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 4: mass protests, which is you know, which has various elements.

740
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 4: It is apparently spontaneous, leaderless, digitally coordinated. Often you know,

741
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 4: people are finding out about this because of social media

742
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 4: or media in general. And then horizontally structured, which means

743
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 4: that there's not hierarchy, and there's often an idea that

744
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 4: there shouldn't be. And then these are protests in public

745
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 4: squares or in or in public spaces, and when more

746
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,439
Speaker 4: people come than expect are than are expected, then yeah,

747
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 4: the government is perhaps dislodged or the government is so

748
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 4: weakened the power is up for grabs, and often what

749
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 4: happened in you know that this is where you know,

750
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 4: cases really diverge. But often what happened is whoever was

751
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 4: already there organized waiting in the wings, steps in and

752
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 4: takes power. The person that was like waiting, you know,

753
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 4: off off off camera, off stage, takes over, or you know,

754
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,720
Speaker 4: sometimes that is the local national elites. They're not always

755
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 4: on the right. Sometimes they are on the right, or

756
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 4: especially in the cases of countries that are weaker than

757
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 4: the US, you often had some neighbor or the US

758
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 4: itself coming in to fill that vacuum and crush the movement.

759
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 4: And then when that kind of counter attack comes, just

760
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 4: like it did in seventeen eighty nine or in the

761
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 4: revolutions in previous eras of global revolution, there's usually a

762
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 4: counter attack of counter revolution. That protest that hadn't planned

763
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 4: on going to war with anybody, that had not planned

764
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 4: on even actually overthrowing a government is really was really

765
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 4: not ready for it was really not ready to defend

766
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:51,720
Speaker 4: this project, which really concretely consisted of millions of different

767
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 4: people with different ideas as to what it was. Because

768
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 4: they came together so quickly, and you know that part

769
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 4: of it I think is a strength in the beginning

770
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 4: is you can get so many people together very quick

771
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 4: because every sort of everyone's invited. But once you get

772
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 4: past that first moment, often there was a brief moment

773
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 4: when there was an opportunity, and usually the people that

774
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 4: took the opportunity were already organized, already ready, and already

775
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 4: waiting in the wings to seize power, where whereas the

776
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 4: stream movements couldn't decide if they believed in taking power,

777
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 4: or who was supposed to do it, or if what

778
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 4: they would do with it if they would and while

779
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 4: that sort of non conversation was not happening, like the

780
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 4: military sweeps in or a right wing populi sweeps in,

781
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 4: or NATO bombs your country and so on.

782
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 3: When it comes to like kind of like looking like

783
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 3: because you know, looking at the book and just kind

784
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 3: of thinking about everything I'm always thinking of, like you know,

785
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 3: like how this relates to the United States too, and

786
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 3: how we dabble a lot. I mean, yeah, we've seen

787
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 3: a lot of mass protests. I mean, like in twenty

788
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 3: twenty felt like a huge moment with Black Lives Matter

789
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 3: and people beginning to sort of be able to articulate,

790
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 3: like sort of what is wrong with our system of

791
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 3: policing only to just get like Nancy Pelosi kneeling in

792
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 3: the kintach cloth at the Capitol, right, and then like.

793
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 2: Like what about qualified immunity. There's like a lot of

794
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: things we could do.

795
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 3: And so I look at things like you know, like

796
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 3: United Auto Workers or Organized Labor right now, and they've

797
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 3: been able to wield some really inspiring like collective power

798
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 3: and we're able to extract tangible concessions. But I feel

799
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 3: like that a lot of that is because these groups

800
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 3: are organized around proper power and in a specific industry,

801
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 3: and their tool is to withhold their labor, which then

802
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 3: affects revenue, which then affects the leadership, and then that's

803
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 3: how they bring them to the table when you know,

804
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 3: how do we take sort of like you know, what's

805
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 3: from your perspective, what are the learnings?

806
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 4: Like?

807
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 3: That's a very obviously potent tool that it's like it's

808
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 3: very specific, and I think that's probably the benefit of

809
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 3: those kinds of movements is because they're all they're very

810
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 3: focused on like some very specific things. But when we're

811
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 3: talking about sort of like the discontent that people are

812
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 3: experiencing in the United States based on inequality or et cetera.

813
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 3: How do we take that going merely past the point

814
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 3: of these sort of huge gestures, you know, these expressions

815
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 3: of anger and translate that into outcomes, because a lot

816
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 3: of the times, like you're saying, these movements, they're not there,

817
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 3: are horizontally organized, or they get so big, like people

818
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:19,760
Speaker 3: like at the picket for police brutality.

819
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 2: Some guys got to sign.

820
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 3: He's talking about like batteries give you cancer, And you're like, well,

821
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 3: what the fuck is what?

822
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 2: Like what are we doing now?

823
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 3: Like, so what do we do when it sort of

824
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 3: falls outside of that realm of something as specific as

825
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 3: like the workplace or outcomes as of workers.

826
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good that's a good way to pose

827
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,879
Speaker 4: the question because those two two's two phenomena I think

828
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 4: are interrelated in different and important ways. On the one hand,

829
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 4: one of the things that people said in Egypt, for Brazil,

830
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 4: or or or or Libya or around the world at

831
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,399
Speaker 4: the end of the book is I wish we would

832
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 4: have been more organized before the explosion came. I would

833
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 4: wish we would have organized when it seemed like nothing

834
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 4: was happening, like the lesson, the lesson off being essentially

835
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 4: built in the off season because you don't know what's

836
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 4: going to come, and when something, an opportunity does does arise,

837
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 4: you want to already happy word you know, connected with

838
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 4: other people that believe in the same things as you.

839
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 4: And this is kind of the story of the UAW right.

840
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 4: Like in twenty seventeen, you do have people that are

841
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:28,439
Speaker 4: from the kind of the world of progressive politics realizing, oh,

842
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 4: we kids try to reform. There's the UAW reform conkis.

843
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 4: This is a process that starts in twenty seventeen when

844
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 4: it seems like, you know, there's no opportunities for organized

845
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 4: labor right now, you know, Donald Trump's just won the presidency.

846
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 4: What you know, you know, But but it ends up

847
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 4: paying off much much later. And it pays off because

848
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 4: as you say, you withdraw, you withhold your labor. And

849
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 4: not only do you withhold your labor, because this is

850
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 4: a this is the really hard move that is almost

851
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 4: impossible for the horizontally structured mass protest to pull off,

852
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 4: is that you withhold your labor asking for a raise.

853
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 4: You may ask for all kinds of things that you

854
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,240
Speaker 4: think you're not going to get, you ask.

855
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 6: For them, but you know that there is a amount

856
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 6: of money that you can get that will lead you

857
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,479
Speaker 6: to go back to work, and the boss also knows

858
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 6: that the boss believes the boss will make an offer,

859
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 6: and then the union says, oh, yes, if we get

860
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 6: this amount of concessions from you, we will go back

861
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 6: to work.

862
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 4: And that's why the boss gives it because there's this

863
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 4: exit ramp right like everyone can you know, even if

864
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 4: you could, even if you use the strike to raise

865
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 4: consciousness about working class part in the United States, even

866
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,839
Speaker 4: if you make all kinds of some demands that you're

867
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 4: not going to get this time, the only reason for

868
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 4: the boss to give the raise is the credible promise

869
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 4: that the labor is restored the next day. This is

870
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,959
Speaker 4: something that this was the very strange, like it really

871
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 4: confounded everyone that was living through it. Like as it

872
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 4: was happening, the politicians and the original organizers for example

873
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 4: of this unexpected mass explosion in Brazil in twenty thirteen,

874
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 4: didn't know how to deal with this phenomenon because the

875
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 4: president wanted to give the streets something but could not

876
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 4: figure out what it was that would that could be

877
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 4: given and then that the streets could say, oh yes,

878
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 4: that's great, We'll take that for now, you know. And

879
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 4: again in these moments, you may ask for really really

880
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 4: radical reforms. You may you know, bring up the possibility

881
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 4: of entirely changing or getting rid of the current policing

882
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,439
Speaker 4: orcarceral system. That is a thing that can be part

883
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 4: of this larger process. But when there's no when there

884
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 4: was no ability for the people in power to understand

885
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 4: that they would somehow get out of this like because

886
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 4: they're often, like I said, they're scared. So if you're

887
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 4: not willing to actually overthrow the government and form a

888
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 4: new one, but you can scare the government, then what

889
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 4: you want is to use that moment where they're kind

890
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 4: of on their back on their heels to get something.

891
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:12,399
Speaker 4: But they're only going to get it if they think that, okay,

892
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 4: well that that means that I can stand again that

893
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 4: if I do give this thing, I will be it

894
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:22,760
Speaker 4: will be demonstrated that you know, mass protest extracts goods

895
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 4: from me. It will be, it will be proven. You know.

896
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 4: On the other side of this equation there might be

897
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 4: all this more this radical energy that's that's born. But

898
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 4: at least I can hold on for now, And and

899
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:33,760
Speaker 4: a lot of times in the twenty tents, the government

900
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 4: couldn't even figure out what to give in order to

901
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 4: full order, so then they just they end up opted

902
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 4: opting for And this depended on context repression just like

903
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 4: crack like just cracking down or just waiting it out,

904
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 4: which turns out kind of works. And and that that

905
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 4: that that that that dynamic that you brought up too,

906
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 4: like because I you know, in twenty twenty, I mean

907
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 4: I didn't write I know very little about the George floetuprising.

908
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 4: I spent a lot of time learning about the rest

909
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 4: of these in the book, but I did get like

910
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 4: I did watch of course, and this was something that

911
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 4: I started to talk about with my friends that were in,

912
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 4: you know, involved on the streets, that if the government

913
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 4: just kind of does nothing, the longer things go on,

914
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 4: the more likely it is that that guy with the

915
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 4: sign that says batteries give you cancer, we'll get on television.

916
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 4: Right even if and again, to go back to the

917
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 4: very beginning of our conversation, even if like that's an fbhiaja,

918
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 4: you know, if like it makes sense for the government

919
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 4: to just send three people out there to do the

920
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 4: dumbest thing that you could imagine point a camera at

921
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 4: them and be like, this is what you are?

922
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 2: Is that what you are?

923
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 4: And in the case of these horizontally structured uprisings, the

924
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 4: uprising cannot say no, we're not, no, it's not, which

925
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 4: is something that the Black Panther Party and CORE and SNCAC,

926
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 4: the civil rights groups in the fifties in sixties then

927
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 4: inspired so much of contemporary process as we know it.

928
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 4: So much of the sixties movements in the student New

929
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,800
Speaker 4: Left were really inspired by the right organizations in the

930
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 4: fifties and sixties. They absolutely would have had an ability

931
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,160
Speaker 4: to say that guy, we don't know that guy, right,

932
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 4: but that but that was lost in the you know,

933
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 4: it's a it's a mixed bag. There's positive negatives to

934
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 4: the to the dynamic which allows people like a lot

935
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 4: of people to come to the streets at the same time,

936
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 4: whereas often it took like two years to put together

937
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 4: the mass demonstrations that were common in the fifties and

938
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 4: sixties because they had to like slowly, slowly, one by

939
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 4: one recruit people and vet them. Whereas now we can

940
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 4: everyone can show up, but then there's no one to

941
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 4: say yeah, really anything full on behalf of the.

942
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 3: Streets, right, Yeah, Like when Boogoloo boys showed up at

943
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 3: like BLM things and they're like, well, what, well, hold

944
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 3: on y'all. They're like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we

945
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 3: like this too, and it's like, okay, no, this this,

946
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,240
Speaker 3: this is not it not over here.

947
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,399
Speaker 1: But yeah, let's let's take a quick break and then yeah,

948
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: I want to keep talking about this. We'll be right

949
00:48:50,200 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 1: back and we're back. And what one just kind of

950
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,720
Speaker 1: universal observation from a lot of the stories you covered

951
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 1: the you know, twenty twenty protests in the US, Like

952
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: there seems to be a universal just like people are

953
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 1: like fuck fuck the police. Like a lot of the times,

954
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 1: like the police really end up being you know, you

955
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: talk to somebody who is in Ukraine and is like

956
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: the you know, these Miton protests are kind of seem

957
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 1: weird and like neoliberal to me, and so I'm not

958
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 1: into it. But then the second the police show up

959
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: and start being the shit out of people, it becomes

960
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 1: like a national movement, right, So I don't know, like

961
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: that that just seems like it kept coming up, like

962
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 1: why wait, why are we putting up this a universal

963
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 1: truth that like we all agree on, like around the

964
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: globe is like a cap like, fuck this institution, please the.

965
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 4: I mean, I think this is really so absolutely and

966
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 4: this again, this was I put together this book as

967
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 4: a history. It really kind of like, if I've done

968
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,760
Speaker 4: it right, it should hopefully read like a story and

969
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 4: you can go through the events like a movie and

970
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 4: sort of see what happens and connect with it different

971
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 4: things and understand how things are interrelated. And I think

972
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 4: that if there was any value to doing that is

973
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,800
Speaker 4: to see what things pop up as similar in the

974
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 4: different And one thing that surprised me is how common

975
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 4: this was the dynamic unist outlined where the first demand

976
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 4: no one cares that much about. There's a small thing

977
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 4: at the very beginning, or there's you know, there's some

978
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 4: issue or some interaction between one one individual and one

979
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 4: police officer. But then the image of the police doing

980
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 4: what they are literally trained to do, which is to

981
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 4: repress populations and moment of moments of a parent illegality

982
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 4: shocks the country so much that that's what really sets

983
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 4: off the explosion, that that's really what gets millions and

984
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 4: millions of people in the streets. And then at that

985
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 4: point there's sort of this discussion as to what it is.

986
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 4: But I think there's two things there. One of them

987
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,720
Speaker 4: is that dynamic we spoke about the very beginning, like photography,

988
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 4: like the ability to instantly see because before you know

989
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 4: the camera, but certainly before twin on Instagram, the average

990
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 4: person is never going to see the things that cops

991
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 4: actually do unless you live in you know, unless it

992
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 4: actually happens to you or you're walking in front of somebody.

993
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 4: It's not the case that every single person in the

994
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 4: country can see what this actually looks like. But in

995
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 4: the twenty tens, everyone can see what it looks like.

996
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 4: The most shocking thing that people have been saying about

997
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 4: what cops do is recorded, and everyone sees it at

998
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 4: the same time. And often, as I said, if we

999
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 4: can have like sort of a visceral reaction and then

1000
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 4: you know, and so there's the possibility of seeing that

1001
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 4: and the reality of what it is that in the

1002
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 4: final instance, often reproduces the very unequal societies we live in,

1003
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 4: which is violence, right, and like as I say at

1004
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:06,759
Speaker 4: the end of the book, in almost any country on earth,

1005
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 4: if you want to or if you do the wrong thing,

1006
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 4: a cop will beat the shit out of you. That

1007
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 4: is like the nature of the system that we live

1008
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 4: in globally. So then even though the various demands from

1009
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 4: Brazil to Ukraine are entirely different, that the spark is

1010
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 4: very similar across countries. And then what to do with

1011
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 4: this huge energy which is initially often directed at the police.

1012
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,879
Speaker 4: That is something that is hard to translate into something

1013
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 4: else afterwards, even in the case where for example, like

1014
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 4: in Egypt, they like they like they went to battle

1015
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 4: with the cops and the cops lost, Like the cops

1016
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 4: were like ripping off their uniforms and running away, like

1017
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 4: there was no more cops. The people would or at

1018
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 4: least the people that were in the uprising on January

1019
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 4: twenty eighth, twenty eleven, like beat the police and there

1020
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 4: was no one left in charge. But they hadn't planned

1021
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 4: for that. They didn't know what to do, and sort.

1022
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 1: Of pretty having your opponent rip off their uniform and

1023
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 1: run away, like if that happened in sports, Yeah that's

1024
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: not you.

1025
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,319
Speaker 4: Definitely won if your opponent rips off, yeah and like

1026
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 4: hides their clothes. But yeah, but then they didn't they

1027
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:22,359
Speaker 4: didn't know what to do. But no, yeah, you're right,

1028
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 4: this is something that popped up everywhere the this is

1029
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 4: this is something that often got people very, very upset

1030
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 4: and willing to take risks, to take action. And then

1031
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 4: even when it was apparently incredibly successful, that that that

1032
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 4: that energy, somehow or another could not be translated into

1033
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 4: the construction of something different, even in the most even

1034
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 4: in the most surprising cases.

1035
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, the speed with which the Brazilian protests go from

1036
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:58,839
Speaker 1: a protest over fair hikes on public transport to get

1037
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:02,239
Speaker 1: getting these on the fair hikes or the the what

1038
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: what they were asking for too? Then like the leftists

1039
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 1: who organized the first protests and leftists and anarchists like

1040
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 1: being pushed out like off of the streets by these

1041
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 1: like right wing And that's that's something that like, you know,

1042
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 1: when you look at the definition of fascism, it's like

1043
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 1: take the ideas, the talking points, and the methods of

1044
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:29,800
Speaker 1: leftist organization organizing and use them towards your own. And

1045
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 1: but like the speed with which you see it happen

1046
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 1: in real time, like I kept thinking about like the

1047
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: book felt like it was like partially about fluid dynamics,

1048
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 1: like just like how quickly things were, like people would

1049
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: flood into this place and then like this other thing

1050
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 1: would come, and but just wild that the speed and

1051
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: real time energy with which that happens in that instance.

1052
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 4: Like the way that I said earlier that some people say, oh,

1053
00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 4: I could relive every moment of that day for the

1054
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,360
Speaker 4: rest of them my life, something similar happens with me

1055
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 4: in that week. Because the amount of days between the

1056
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:11,880
Speaker 4: police crackdown on the leftists in Brazil that causes the

1057
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,879
Speaker 4: country to pour out of the streets in sympathy and

1058
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 4: then the new arrivals who are on the beginnings of

1059
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 4: a far right movement throwing those original protesters out of

1060
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,240
Speaker 4: the streets is only seven days. But in my memory,

1061
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 4: so much happens, and I could remember like every morning,

1062
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:33,360
Speaker 4: like every hour, something's different is happening in like Facebook groups,

1063
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 4: because like the original group is organizing on face, like

1064
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 4: is putting out like press releases on Facebook. Like it

1065
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 4: seems like nothing, like, oh, it's just a week. So

1066
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 4: much happened in that week. And as you say, yes,

1067
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 4: people that we would now very easily recognize as the

1068
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 4: beginnings of a far right movement in Brazil, they came

1069
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 4: out wearing the yellow and green soccer jersey. Only a

1070
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:03,320
Speaker 4: few days later, a few days after the police cracked down. Actually,

1071
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 4: you know, beat the original organizers rip their like they

1072
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 4: don't like rip their they don't rip their uniforms off,

1073
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 4: but they rip their flags down, and they rip and

1074
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,399
Speaker 4: they rip away their their left wing banners and they

1075
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,280
Speaker 4: throw them into the streets and then they just go home.

1076
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 4: And that was something that like nobody, like nobody considered

1077
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 4: possible just four days previously, certainly not the original organizers,

1078
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 4: not the government, not I think the beginnings of the

1079
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 4: far right themselves, And it was just an immediate turnaround

1080
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 4: that Brazil has been sort of reeling from for the

1081
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 4: last ten years. And like, I'm not the only person

1082
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 4: to spend a lot of time trying to figure out

1083
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:41,800
Speaker 4: how that, how that happened.

1084
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, one of the things that like I was really interesting,

1085
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 3: like as you talk about how hope like football hooligans

1086
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 3: and ultras, Yeah, have they played a part in some

1087
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 3: of these movements. Like as I got more and more

1088
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 3: interested in European football, I realized how many of these

1089
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 3: groups have very like specific political views and it's not

1090
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 3: just like we fuck with this team, it's like, no,

1091
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 3: we're also anti fascist and like or we're neo Nazis,

1092
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:11,879
Speaker 3: Like you don't know what the fuck you're gonna get yep,

1093
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 3: can you like just like, can I explain because I

1094
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 3: think that's a very specific thing. But like because in

1095
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 3: America we have sports fans, but not even it's not

1096
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 3: the level of what hooligans are ultras you know, because

1097
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 3: many of these can be gangs in certain instances, But

1098
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 3: like what is that.

1099
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: Shared ideological content except with Yankees fans, I guess.

1100
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 3: Or with like or tom Brady's the goat Bro, right,

1101
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 3: Like tom Brady's the goat bro gets you.

1102
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 4: There's like certain there's like certain characteristics of certain teams,

1103
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 4: like Raiders fans you could kind of think of like

1104
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 4: a certain type of guy kind of right, But with

1105
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 4: ultras and in general, like global football culture in general,

1106
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 4: the way that we do sports in the United States

1107
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 4: is like shockingly offensive to them. Like if the fans,

1108
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 4: if the fans of the Brazilian version of the Raiders,

1109
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 4: which is there is one, found out that they like

1110
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 4: their team was moving cities, like, there would be big problems,

1111
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 4: like you that is like that is like that like

1112
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 4: I just I often just like tell Brazilians this and

1113
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 4: they get so mad that you can't them anger because

1114
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 4: these teams are really really embedded in communities, right, Like

1115
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:24,439
Speaker 4: you're born a fan of a certain team. That means

1116
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 4: something and as comes to matter quite a lot in

1117
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 4: the mass protests that I cover, which political ideology a

1118
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 4: given set of football ultras or hooligans has really matters? Now,

1119
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 4: again this is unexpected, but if you think about it,

1120
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 4: it makes a lot of sense. Oh well, if you are,

1121
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 4: without meaning to perhaps calling for extended street battles with

1122
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 4: the police, who's going to be the best at that?

1123
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 2: Right?

1124
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 4: Well, in cities like salth Paulo and Istanbul and Kiv,

1125
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 4: it is football ultras. They they know each other, they

1126
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 4: have coherent identity. They have been battling cops for years.

1127
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 4: They know how to deal with this with street battles.

1128
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 2: Right.

1129
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 4: And so in twenty thirteen, again, like the burch of

1130
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 4: the books is to put in the book is to

1131
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 4: put like events in chronological order next to each other.

1132
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 4: There's three uprisings in twenty thirteen that really matter in

1133
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 4: the book, Turkey, Brazil and Ukraine in that order, and

1134
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 4: in all three cases football fans end up mattering to

1135
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 4: the final outcome. Now for totally like totally coincidental historic reasons,

1136
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 4: the football fans that show up in Gezie Park in

1137
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 4: Istanbul come with anarchist or communist football banners. In Ukraine,

1138
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 4: it for again, for you know, the central Ukraine is

1139
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 4: not the only part of this region of Europe where

1140
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 4: you would have far far right of football ultruists, but

1141
00:59:57,120 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 4: it ends up mattering quite a lot to the outcome

1142
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 4: of Year of My Dawn that the football ultras that

1143
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 4: are in the region are on the fall right. They

1144
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 4: end up playing a really big role in the outcome

1145
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 4: in Ukraine. And then in Brazil you get a different

1146
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 4: type of football fan, which is the more the fan

1147
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 4: of the national team, which is a very specific type

1148
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 4: of Brazilian because like, right, I mean, I don't want

1149
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 4: to go too deep into this, but like regular Brazilians

1150
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 4: don't care that much about the national team unless they're winning. Interesting,

1151
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 4: they're like really really loyal to Corinthians. Corinthians is the

1152
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 4: raiders of Brazil. I'm gonna explain why that matters. They're

1153
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 4: really really loyal to the Corinthians, for example. But like

1154
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 4: the it tends to be like an upper middle class,

1155
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 4: wider Brazilian that is in the stadiums at the World

1156
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 4: Cup because it's quite, it's very expensive to go so

1157
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 4: and then so then this group of people that like

1158
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,919
Speaker 4: you know, throw anarchists and leftists out of the streets

1159
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:53,120
Speaker 4: ends up mattering. But then jumping forward to twenty twenty two,

1160
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 4: the election last year in which Jirabolscenaro, the far right

1161
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 4: president who takes over in twenty eighteen, is trying everything

1162
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 4: he can to organize a coup. He tried to, he

1163
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 4: tried behind the scenes, he tried, he you know, he

1164
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 4: tried in ways that Trump said, but he was much

1165
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 4: better at he knew he's he's from the era of

1166
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,440
Speaker 4: the military dictatorship. He was trying in more sort of

1167
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:18,040
Speaker 4: let's say, informed ways. And right after the election, pro

1168
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 4: Bolsonaro Brazilians block the highways of the country trying to

1169
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 4: make a coup happen. So I'm stuck in South paul

1170
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 4: I'm supposed to go to Rio. You can't go. The

1171
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 4: highways are blocked by the far right. The Corinthians fans

1172
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 4: in South Paulo, which is again the Raiders of Brazil.

1173
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:38,439
Speaker 4: They're like the biggest, most raucous fan group. They're black

1174
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:40,920
Speaker 4: and white, like a lot of their like ultras have

1175
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 4: like ties to prisons, they for whatever historical reasons, are

1176
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,920
Speaker 4: pro democracy, pro Lula and center left. They clear the roads,

1177
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 4: they go out and get to get the fuck out

1178
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 4: of the way. Yet get the bist does off the road.

1179
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,080
Speaker 4: One because that they believe in democracy and they support Lulin.

1180
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 4: Two because they have to get to a game that

1181
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 4: is that is happening up that highway.

1182
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 2: So if Corinthians wasn't playing Flamengo.

1183
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 3: That day, maybe they wouldn't have helped or whoever they

1184
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 3: were playing, right, yeah, I think it would have been

1185
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 3: it would have been a Rio team.

1186
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 4: But uh yeah, I mean, this is something that's unexpected.

1187
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 4: And then, like the original leftists and anarchists in the

1188
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 4: Brazilian context, at least they realized afterwards because they really

1189
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:22,680
Speaker 4: believe and they really are horizontalists, they believe in sort

1190
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 4: of lighting the spark causing the mass revolt, and then

1191
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 4: they wouldn't need to lead it because it would necessarily

1192
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 4: be good. It would be it would be pushing history

1193
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:34,600
Speaker 4: forward in the sense that we talked about, like is

1194
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 4: there is there a world historical time? They thought that

1195
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:40,080
Speaker 4: that would necessarily push history forward. But one thing they

1196
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 4: realized when that didn't happen is like oh well, we

1197
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 4: picked a part of town where our allies don't really live.

1198
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 4: We picked a street battle in the center of the

1199
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:51,480
Speaker 4: economic capital, whereas we care about more more about the

1200
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 4: working class people in the periphery. But we didn't think

1201
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 4: about like an extended battle. We just kind of thought, you,

1202
01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,480
Speaker 4: you know, you light the fight. What is it like,

1203
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:01,400
Speaker 4: like Bean, it's kind of Bane logic, what is the

1204
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 4: thing like? What does the Bain say in the beginning

1205
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:05,920
Speaker 4: of the Batman movie where he's like he throws the

1206
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,280
Speaker 4: guy of the planes, like, well, you've lit the fire now,

1207
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 4: like everything's taking care. There is kind of this you

1208
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:12,240
Speaker 4: know this scene I'm talking about her mind.

1209
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I know the scene for sure. And

1210
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:18,439
Speaker 1: there's also like sharing about the fire rising. Yeah throughout them. Yeah,

1211
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:20,800
Speaker 1: I just don't I'm not off book on Bain quotes

1212
01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:22,640
Speaker 1: like I used to be when I was.

1213
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 4: Right wing and yeah, but they weren't right wing at all.

1214
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:28,960
Speaker 4: But they just believed, okay, well, you know, you light

1215
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 4: this park and you stop off the stage. And the

1216
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 4: selection of the battleground, which they didn't wasn't thought about

1217
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:41,240
Speaker 4: too much because the streets were just sort of supposed

1218
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:44,439
Speaker 4: to represent progress. Ends up making football e shows matter

1219
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 4: quite a lot across this decade in ways that like,

1220
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 4: you know, as strange as it sounds, without in any

1221
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 4: way trying to downplay the role that of course Vladimir

1222
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:57,320
Speaker 4: Putin played in the aftermass of the crisis and criminally

1223
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 4: invading the country. Yeah, still to this day you're kind

1224
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 4: of seeing things be different than they were if it

1225
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 4: were not for the involvement of those those ultras in

1226
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:07,640
Speaker 4: Ukraine and twenty thirteen.

1227
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:10,680
Speaker 1: Well, it's an incredible book. Everybody should go out and

1228
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:12,560
Speaker 1: check it out. And we've got to have you back

1229
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 1: on to kind of keep talking about this, especially in

1230
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 1: the context of you know, well what the US is

1231
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:22,680
Speaker 1: maybe facing in the coming years, in the coming yeares year.

1232
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:26,480
Speaker 1: But Vincent Bevans, thanks so much for coming on. If

1233
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 1: We Burn the Mass Protest Decade and the Missing Revolution

1234
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:33,400
Speaker 1: is the book? Where can people find you? Follow you

1235
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:34,440
Speaker 1: all that good stuff?

1236
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:38,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm on Twitter, Vincent Bevans the book. I have

1237
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 4: a little time of like launch page for the book,

1238
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:41,880
Speaker 4: which is ww dot If We Burn dot com, that's

1239
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:45,160
Speaker 4: probably the best place to go. You'll find me there

1240
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 4: indirectly if you need to. But that's where I'm trying

1241
01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 4: to get people to check out the.

1242
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 1: Book, Go go do it. Is there a work of

1243
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:54,240
Speaker 1: media that you've been enjoying.

1244
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 4: I mean, this might not be an original answer for you,

1245
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 4: but there are I've not been in enjoying any of

1246
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:05,800
Speaker 4: the media. I'm consuming a lot of it. I mean,

1247
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 4: I wake up. You know, it's horrible, right Like it's

1248
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:10,919
Speaker 4: it's a dark time to be online. I think, yeah,

1249
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 4: there's things that I'm paying attention to. Oh man, it's

1250
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 4: it's not like it's not like a joyous time in

1251
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 4: social media, you know, which is I think for better

1252
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 4: worse than I think for worse where a lot of

1253
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 4: us like actually live most of the time. But hopefully,

1254
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:27,560
Speaker 4: you know, hope, you know, but again, future last a

1255
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 4: long time, and hopefully that is not it's not always

1256
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 4: going to be like that. I really, I really hope not.

1257
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:34,440
Speaker 4: If I didn't believe that it then it didn't have

1258
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 4: to be like that, I wouldn't be doing this kind

1259
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:37,479
Speaker 4: of work. So hopefully that I can start to enjoy

1260
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 4: something again.

1261
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 1: There you go, Well, thank you, thank you again for

1262
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 1: joining us.

1263
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 4: Miles.

1264
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 1: Where can people find you? Is there a worker media

1265
01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 1: you've been enjoying? Uh?

1266
01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 2: You know at based platforms at Miles of Gray.

1267
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 3: Find Jack and I on our basketball podcast when I

1268
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 3: was in jackob at Boost, find me on four to

1269
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:56,440
Speaker 3: twenty Day Fiance, and you know all the stuff like that.

1270
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:02,240
Speaker 3: Uh media, I just said, I watched the first coup

1271
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 3: episode of the squid Game thing. I'm not necessarily recommending it,

1272
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 3: but like I said in a trending episode, man, when

1273
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:09,840
Speaker 3: that guy embraced his mom.

1274
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 2: It really did something to me, really did something to me.

1275
01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 4: Is it good?

1276
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:14,240
Speaker 2: Though?

1277
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:16,560
Speaker 4: Is it? Is it good? It shouldn't exist?

1278
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 3: Nah, Like it doesn't. We don't benefit from its existence,

1279
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:23,240
Speaker 3: that's for sure. So I I'll put it there, you

1280
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 3: know what I mean. Like, like I said earlier, like

1281
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 3: it's it. It's the fact that the show was so good.

1282
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:31,960
Speaker 3: It like is doing ninety eight percent of the lifting

1283
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 3: for the reality competition version of it.

1284
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:36,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, just.

1285
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:38,880
Speaker 1: All the all the like set design and all that

1286
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 1: shit that they stole.

1287
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:43,280
Speaker 3: From Yeah, because no one's there being like like it's

1288
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 3: not a commentary on like the squeeze of capitalism on

1289
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:48,480
Speaker 3: like common people. It's just like like it's like an

1290
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:51,240
Speaker 3: influencer who's like, man, you know, Jesus was a competitor

1291
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:53,640
Speaker 3: and so am I, and you're like, fuck you.

1292
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:56,360
Speaker 1: My favorite one my favorite competitors.

1293
01:06:57,520 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 3: So though he said, it's so you're seats in this

1294
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:03,080
Speaker 3: way where it's like and that justifies any kind of

1295
01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 3: like reptile brain should I do in here?

1296
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:05,960
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1297
01:07:06,080 --> 01:07:08,440
Speaker 4: That is really American Christianity, though, isn't it.

1298
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:13,200
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, you just have to say Jesus was gospel. Yeah, hey, man,

1299
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 7: Jesus was addicted to fast food. Have you done the

1300
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:19,160
Speaker 7: Jesus Workout? It actually worked? You get shredded abs, you

1301
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:20,120
Speaker 7: look fucking great.

1302
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 4: What is it like?

1303
01:07:21,800 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 1: Like like that? That was the thing when I were

1304
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 1: I worked at ABC News and they were always talking about,

1305
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 1: like there's an inside joke in the media that if

1306
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,320
Speaker 1: you put the words the Jesus Diet or the Jesus

1307
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 1: Workout on the front page of like anything that is

1308
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:39,800
Speaker 1: like the hack for like you, you will sell a

1309
01:07:39,840 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 1: million papers. And then since that time, I've like seen

1310
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:45,320
Speaker 1: various permutations of that.

1311
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 4: You could one million percent get a lot of views

1312
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 4: on it. Well produced the Jesus Workout video because it

1313
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:57,320
Speaker 4: would just be carpentry, carpentry carpentry when like the diet

1314
01:07:57,360 --> 01:07:58,840
Speaker 4: of of.

1315
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 3: Of like all of the time, yeah, or it's like

1316
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 3: you drink water, wine, fish, and bread.

1317
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, like that were like miracle substances from Jesus.

1318
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:13,720
Speaker 1: You're gonna need some red wine for breakfast, guys.

1319
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 8: Wine lots of long walks exactly, and eventually you will

1320
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:20,000
Speaker 8: walk on water and you'll be using tools that existed

1321
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:23,560
Speaker 8: at the time rocks and yeah, tweets.

1322
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 1: I've been enjoying. Benny Feldman tweeted baby Seinfeld, what's the

1323
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 1: deal with this food airplane? And then Christy Amagucci Man

1324
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:36,400
Speaker 1: just tweeted a happy Folds incest commercial to all who celebrate.

1325
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:41,080
Speaker 1: If you're not familiar with the Folds incest commercial, I

1326
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:43,840
Speaker 1: highly suggest you go find him on Twitter at the

1327
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 1: Wopple House and yeah, oh Man, just the sexual the

1328
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:52,200
Speaker 1: thickest sexual tention I've ever seen on a filmed piece

1329
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 1: of on a moving picture. And it's between brother and

1330
01:08:56,280 --> 01:09:00,960
Speaker 1: sister in a like mainstream coffee commercial that seems like

1331
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:03,800
Speaker 1: it was shot to like appear on the Today Show,

1332
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 1: and they're just like within seconds of fucking each other

1333
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:10,400
Speaker 1: on the kitchen accounter when their parents walk in. Anyways,

1334
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:12,839
Speaker 1: you can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore. O'Brien,

1335
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter at daily Zeitgeist. We're

1336
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:18,240
Speaker 1: at the Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook

1337
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:20,559
Speaker 1: fan page and a website, daily zeitgeist dot com, where

1338
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:23,680
Speaker 1: we post our episode and our footnotes no where we

1339
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:25,519
Speaker 1: link off to the information that we talked about in

1340
01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 1: today's episode, as well as a song that we think

1341
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:31,280
Speaker 1: you might enjoy. Mild Is there a song that you

1342
01:09:31,320 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 1: think people might enjoy?

1343
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:35,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a new track from one of my

1344
01:09:35,120 --> 01:09:38,320
Speaker 3: favorite producers, Fred Again, that came out over the weekend,

1345
01:09:38,400 --> 01:09:42,080
Speaker 3: featuring Baby Keeam. You know, keeping a West Coast But yeah,

1346
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:44,479
Speaker 3: this is Fred Again and Baby Keen. It's Baby Keem.

1347
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 3: Is called leave Me Alone. It's one word and if

1348
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 3: you liked any of the electronic music that actually just

1349
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:49,360
Speaker 3: in the past.

1350
01:09:49,320 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 2: You're gonna like this one. So check out leave Me

1351
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 2: Alone Fred Again with Baby Keen.

1352
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 1: All Right, we will link off to that in the

1353
01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:57,599
Speaker 1: footnotes to Daily Zeitgeist is a production by Heart Radio.

1354
01:09:57,600 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart

1355
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:02,040
Speaker 1: Radio app podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

1356
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:03,639
Speaker 1: That is going to do it for us this morning,

1357
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 1: back this afternoon to tell you what's trending, and we

1358
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 1: will talk to y'all. Then bye bye