Speaker 1: This Tiger Tour. You're either in with him or you
Speaker 1: are dead to him. Why would he change now? There's
Speaker 1: never been any in between. Let them coexist and divvy up,
Speaker 1: Divvy up the schedule, divvy up the players, and divvy
Speaker 1: it all up. Isn't that ultimately what it seems like
Speaker 1: we're working towards.
Speaker 2: That.
Speaker 3: Got thoughts in my head.
Speaker 4: Can't get him join, Not the thing Wood I'm thinking about,
Speaker 4: got my head, can't get him.
Speaker 3: Out, John, Not the thing Wood I'm thinking about.
Speaker 2: Hello, this is Alan shipknocking back for another Fire Drill podcast.
Speaker 2: There is a lot happening in the golf world, in
Speaker 2: society as a whole.
Speaker 5: We thought this might just be a good.
Speaker 2: Moment to for Matt, Janelle and I to talk about
Speaker 2: the state of things.
Speaker 5: For me, it's kind of an exciting day.
Speaker 2: It's book release day of Live and Let Die, which
Speaker 2: some of you have already heard about or read about.
Speaker 2: Here in New York City, doing some publicity, all good stuff.
Speaker 2: Matt's in Oceanside and fire Pit HQ. Matti, how's it going.
Speaker 5: It's going well?
Speaker 1: I mean I feel like I'm busy until I heard
Speaker 1: where you've been and what you've been up to so
Speaker 1: give it a little more, a little more details on
Speaker 1: sort of exactly what you've been doing today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I've done five podcasts, two or three
Speaker 2: national radio shows. I'm chipping, I've got my mint tea here,
Speaker 2: my throat. I'm losing my voice slightly. I hope it
Speaker 2: doesn't sound too bad for the view listeners at home.
Speaker 2: I came to New York because I was I had
Speaker 2: some TV stuff lined up on MSNBC today. I was
Speaker 2: gonna do squawk Box and Morning Joe. But with President
Speaker 2: Biden flying to Israel, with the House trying to elect
Speaker 2: a speaker, with war raging in the Middle East and elsewhere,
Speaker 2: those things get better ratings, I think than golf books.
Speaker 5: So I got bumped. Hopefully tomorrow. I'm locked in.
Speaker 2: For CNN tomorrow and maybe a few other things. But
Speaker 2: it's all good. I'm just happy to be here and
Speaker 2: enjoying the room service of my hotel, which I haven't
Speaker 2: left this room since ten am. It's now five t
Speaker 2: I literally haven't left the room. It's just been ping
Speaker 2: ponging from one thing to the next. But of course
Speaker 2: I appreciate the interest and people wanting.
Speaker 5: To talk about the book. And it's been fun.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm probably tired of my own voice, but
Speaker 2: hopefully nobody else is yet.
Speaker 5: Probably a few people. It's probably.
Speaker 1: I know, a few tour pros of voice to the
Speaker 1: idea that they're tired of you. Well, but good god,
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, given the state of what happening in
Speaker 1: the world and devastation and destruction and just terrorism and sadness,
Speaker 1: and I the idea of sort of talking about anything
Speaker 1: other than that, or seeing anything other than that is
Speaker 1: is you know, here we are covering the game of golf,
Speaker 1: and I think it's just a good reminder and perspective
Speaker 1: on you know, what it is we do and how
Speaker 1: we do it and try to, you know, certainly tell
Speaker 1: stories that in some cases to justin Thomas's point, where
Speaker 1: you know positive stories. You know, look, it's not all positive,
Speaker 1: and it's not always positive, and I know you're at
Speaker 1: the axis of this fantastically layered, I don't know, dysfunctional
Speaker 1: fight for profet golf and for me, Before we get
Speaker 1: too far into it, it's just worth stating that, you know,
Speaker 1: it's also a good reminder that professional golf is only
Speaker 1: a sliver of what is golf. Capital golf, you know,
Speaker 1: and that to me is also something that I try
Speaker 1: to remind myself. You know, I've certainly sent out a
Speaker 1: lot of tweets that I often think maybe I probably
Speaker 1: shouldn't have sent that out, or you know, maybe I
Speaker 1: should have sat on that an extra day or rewarded
Speaker 1: that a little differently. And you know, the more the
Speaker 1: more I read of what you write, the more i'm
Speaker 1: I'm hyper focused on the other side of the game,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, instead of people who get paid
Speaker 1: to play, people who pay to play, because I think that,
Speaker 1: to me is is truly what golf is. And I
Speaker 1: think some of the guys who are getting paid to play,
Speaker 1: some of those guys, you know, men and women, at
Speaker 1: one point had to pay to play, and I think
Speaker 1: they're not too far removed from that.
Speaker 5: And you know, I think.
Speaker 1: We'd all be better served to keep things in perspective
Speaker 1: from time to time when when this kind of stuff
Speaker 1: gets so far out of control, which I believe is
Speaker 1: where it's at right now.
Speaker 2: Well it's a good point. I mean, folks have been
Speaker 2: following us carefully, know that we're monitoring and chronicling this
Speaker 2: big renovation at Golden Gate Park golf course right in
Speaker 2: the hard of San Francisco, and I was up there
Speaker 2: just last week. They you know, I was there in February,
Speaker 2: the last day that the old course could be played
Speaker 2: by the It's this treasured little respite in the heart
Speaker 2: of the city for the local golf community. And talking
Speaker 2: to the folks about how much the course means to them,
Speaker 2: and there's a little trepidation, like, yeah, this is our course.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not perfect, but we, like, you know,
Speaker 2: we're sorry to lose it. And what's been created there
Speaker 2: is just phenomenal. It is gonna be one of the
Speaker 2: best part threes in the country. And so they kind
Speaker 2: of had a soft opening and they had two dozen
Speaker 2: young women who were part of the first tea. Really
Speaker 2: they're girls, they're all teenagers, and they they came out
Speaker 2: and played and the joy that just they exuded because
Speaker 2: it's just a fun, whimsical design and a beautiful setting.
Speaker 2: And you get up to the top of the property,
Speaker 2: you can see the ocean and you can see the
Speaker 2: famous windmills out there and the outer sunset and there's
Speaker 2: glimpses of of you know, the real urban tightly packed
Speaker 2: in houses and buildings and you have a real sense
Speaker 2: of place and just big around those those kids. As
Speaker 2: you suggest, Matt, it it is affirming, and it is
Speaker 2: the reminder of what it's all about. And I mean
Speaker 2: we tell a lot of those stories here at the Collective,
Speaker 2: you know, whether you know we gosh, let's go through
Speaker 2: the roll call of all the heartwarming stories we've done
Speaker 2: the last year or two. I mean, there's so many
Speaker 2: like you and I are. Both of our hearts are
Speaker 2: in municipal golf and in public golf, and and we've
Speaker 2: been chronicling that, you know, pretty much non stop in parallel.
Speaker 5: You know, I have been writing.
Speaker 2: About this, this battle for the soul of professional golf,
Speaker 2: and so hopefully that's interesting to fans. You kind of
Speaker 2: get a taste of everything and and and readers and
Speaker 2: viewers and listeners.
Speaker 5: Uh, you know, we're not predictable. I think you're at
Speaker 5: the Firepit.
Speaker 2: We're always always chasing different stories and and.
Speaker 5: And some are really uplifting and feel good.
Speaker 2: Some like you know, I dropped one today on Firepit
Speaker 2: Collective dot Com kind of gets into this this current
Speaker 2: moment in geopolitics and in what that means for the
Speaker 2: Framework Agreement. And it's it's complex, and there's it's a
Speaker 2: little dark, and it's a little it's a little edgy,
Speaker 2: and I like that mix for us and hope hopefully
Speaker 2: the our you know, our our fans are into it
Speaker 2: as well. But definitely, definitely we have We're like pictures
Speaker 2: that have a fastball and.
Speaker 5: It up and a knuckleball and a curveball.
Speaker 2: I think if you come to Firepit collective communit, you
Speaker 2: don't know what you're gonna find.
Speaker 5: And to me, that's that's a great thing. But there's
Speaker 5: a wide disparity.
Speaker 1: Well going through your your article and your book and
Speaker 1: and then all the you know, sort of the preliminary feedback,
Speaker 1: because the preliminary feedback on Phil, I think for a
Speaker 1: lot of people assumed one thing and by the end
Speaker 1: of the book they realized another, which is it was
Speaker 1: beyond fair and balanced and actually skewed more towards the
Speaker 1: positives that Phil has done and is capable of doing.
Speaker 1: But there's another side to him that you know, right
Speaker 1: or wrong, like or dislike, agree with or or disagree with.
Speaker 5: It's just it's just who he is.
Speaker 1: As you know, as you're navigating this free flow of politics, egos,
Speaker 1: money which comes with greed, and then this concept of
Speaker 1: like a future right because at some point we have
Speaker 1: we they it the professional game of golf is going
Speaker 1: to end up somewhere right where it is now at
Speaker 1: the end of twenty twenty three. What it will be
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, what I think people hope it
Speaker 1: will be by twenty twenty five is sort of what
Speaker 1: is sort of that is the heart of the matter, right,
Speaker 1: Like what is the endgame here?
Speaker 5: Who's in charge?
Speaker 1: And like where's the money coming from? How much money
Speaker 1: is going out? Like that to me is so we
Speaker 1: are so far from where it's going to end up.
Speaker 1: It just seems it's it's mind boggl to me.
Speaker 5: And farther than people think.
Speaker 2: And that was one of the reasons why I wrote
Speaker 2: this story, because even though the book's done, I'm getting
Speaker 2: I'm still plugged into so many people and I'm always.
Speaker 5: Talking to them. And I got a guy on the phone.
Speaker 2: He's a he's a big New York finance titan. This
Speaker 2: is just three or four days ago now, and he's
Speaker 2: very involved in the conversations around the framework agreement. And
Speaker 2: I said, it's this thing is gonna be done by
Speaker 2: December thirty first, which is supposed supposed to be when
Speaker 2: it's going to expire.
Speaker 5: He said, no, it's not. It's like it's a mess.
Speaker 2: There's too many, there's too many egos, There's there's too
Speaker 2: many there's too many players, too many cooks in the kitchen.
Speaker 2: Like he said, it's going to get extended and it's
Speaker 2: going to keep changing. And there's it's been leaking out
Speaker 2: in other places about all these private equity firms and
Speaker 2: other other you know, institutional investors who are trying to
Speaker 2: get in on the deal.
Speaker 5: And it makes it makes sense.
Speaker 2: You know what this this this this so called merger,
Speaker 2: this big deal that was trump but it was nothing
Speaker 2: more than peaky promises. There's nothing in that document that's
Speaker 2: binding except for you know, basically extinguishing the lawsuits like that.
Speaker 2: That's a done deal. That's happened.
Speaker 5: That was a win for the tour.
Speaker 2: But otherwise, you know, there was there's a line in
Speaker 2: there about the Saudis have the first you know, the
Speaker 2: PIFF has the first right of refusal for outside investment.
Speaker 2: That's only that was that was aspirational. That's not the truth.
Speaker 2: They that's why the tour is they've got upwards of
Speaker 2: ten bidders now who want to get in on the deal,
Speaker 2: and they can either come in alongside the Saudis or
Speaker 2: they can push the Saudis out entirely. And there's pros
Speaker 2: and cons either way from from the PGA Tour perspective.
Speaker 2: But so this deal is miles from being done, and
Speaker 2: it's gonna it's gonna extend in twenty twenty four, and
Speaker 2: it's going to get a lot messier. So yeah, to
Speaker 2: your point, Matt, I mean to moving target, what what
Speaker 2: the game is going to look like? It's never been
Speaker 2: less certain, you know. I think the announcement the framework
Speaker 2: agreement kind of tricked people into thinking that that was
Speaker 2: the endgame.
Speaker 1: But it's really not, wouldn't you say that Where we
Speaker 1: are today, and based on this article and some of
Speaker 1: your reporting, even after you hit send on the book,
Speaker 1: you feel like they again it professional golf is further
Speaker 1: away from a clean and clear future than it was
Speaker 1: the day they announced this so called pinky promise or promises.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes sense from Jay Monaghan standpoint. I mean,
Speaker 2: the tour needs two billion dollars of investment. That's the
Speaker 2: number they've settled on. They can't pay their bills, their
Speaker 2: models outdated. It's time to basically shift the tour as
Speaker 2: business model it And that's a good thing. I mean,
Speaker 2: you look at the money that's flooded into in this
Speaker 2: premiere soccer and every other sport. Really it was time
Speaker 2: for the tour to have access to that because the
Speaker 2: old model of every year you got to go back
Speaker 2: to some corporation and some and try and squeeze another
Speaker 2: million or two million dollars out of them. Like now
Speaker 2: the tour is gonna have a war chest that it
Speaker 2: can it can invest in its product, better TV, better streaming,
Speaker 2: better social media, and you know, more interesting tournament offerings
Speaker 2: like they will have the money to do that. This
Speaker 2: is a good thing for golf fans. The issue is
Speaker 2: where is the money gonna come from? It can It
Speaker 2: can be entirely the piff, but we know that comes
Speaker 2: with political risk. I mean, the lawmakers on Capitol Hill
Speaker 2: are watching this very carefully because it would set a
Speaker 2: precedent for all of professional sports. Because you know, if
Speaker 2: the saudiast can take over golf, why wouln't they try
Speaker 2: and buy an NFL team and a Major League Baseball
Speaker 2: team and an NBA team and so this is something
Speaker 2: that the professional sports is gonna have to grapple with.
Speaker 2: And it just turns out that golf is they're the
Speaker 2: first guys in the door. So if I think the
Speaker 2: dream scenario for the tour is that y'a seer to
Speaker 2: maintain his position as in this new entity and you know,
Speaker 2: have the proverbial seat at the table. If you would
Speaker 2: allow some other US based investment to come in alongside
Speaker 2: the Saudis, which would dilute their equity and dilute the
Speaker 2: Saudi influence, that becomes much more palatable to the golfers,
Speaker 2: to the golf fans, and to Congress and say, hey,
Speaker 2: yes we welcome the Saudis into this as a minority
Speaker 2: investor alongside all these other companies, these blue chip American companies,
Speaker 2: and that becomes a much easier sell or. They can
Speaker 2: they can totally cut bait with the piff and go
Speaker 2: all in with US money, and that would obviously make
Speaker 2: a lot of people happy in the golf ecosystem. But
Speaker 2: the risk in that is then you make you live
Speaker 2: golf a staunch competitor again. And now yes, here's pissed,
Speaker 2: and he still got the checkbook. So they're you know,
Speaker 2: they're the tours trying to thread the needle here, and
Speaker 2: that's why the negotiations are bogged down, and that that's
Speaker 2: why the future is so uncertain because they have the there's,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of these three different possible outcomes and
Speaker 2: each one has has has a definite upside and has
Speaker 2: a definite risk and so and so now you've introduced
Speaker 2: all these other all these other people into it. You know,
Speaker 2: all these private ec re refirms are Emmanuel from Endeavor,
Speaker 2: the big Hollywood agency. Like their bidders, they have their
Speaker 2: own advisors and lobbyists and lawyers, and so the cast
Speaker 2: just keeps expanding, the conversations keep multiplying, and and you
Speaker 2: know it's this is just it was already a complex
Speaker 2: deal and now it's it's uh complexity squared.
Speaker 1: Tiger Rory Steinberg Tigers inserting himself and a seat on
Speaker 1: the board. And again from where I sit and all
Speaker 1: that I know and what he brings. Look at how
Speaker 1: much money they've raised for their you know there you
Speaker 1: know they're sort of I don't know what you call it.
Speaker 5: The it's a breakaway league. It's a breakaway league, right
Speaker 5: like just like it's just like Living Golf.
Speaker 1: It's another you know, you know, I can't wait for
Speaker 1: that to get official World Golf ranking points before Live, which, uh,
Speaker 1: but you know it doesn't, doesn't It Like Tiger and
Speaker 1: Rory's and Steinberg have drawn lines in the sand, right
Speaker 1: they they are. And so that's like when you say,
Speaker 1: like the tours trying to thread the needle, I guess
Speaker 1: my my response to that is, yeah, maybe the tour
Speaker 1: is trying to thread the needle, but isn't Tiger and
Speaker 1: Rory and all that comes with that that you know, business,
Speaker 1: that's the first thing they want to do. They actually
Speaker 1: want to do anything butt thread the needle. They'd rather
Speaker 1: create the money on their own, generate the money on
Speaker 1: their own, be solely, you know, be independent. They've made
Speaker 1: that very clear. And thus the scenario of having Live
Speaker 1: then go and be a separate entity and pick players
Speaker 1: and essentially have a little now now the Tiger Tour,
Speaker 1: which is what you should probably just call it at
Speaker 1: that point. Once once that that then becomes separate, this
Speaker 1: Tiger Tour versus the Then Tiger's the guy who's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: if you go over there, then you're gone. Like that's
Speaker 1: the way he's always operated. You're either in with him
Speaker 1: or you are dead to him. Why would he change now,
Speaker 1: there's never been any in between. It's very clear that
Speaker 1: would be. Then the Phill League versus the Tiger League.
Speaker 1: It's you know, it's the Saudi money, the Piff money
Speaker 1: versus any other money other then whatever that is, and
Speaker 1: then let it be, and then let let let them
Speaker 1: coexist and and divvy up, divvy up the schedule, divvy
Speaker 1: up the players, and divvy it all up. Isn't that
Speaker 1: ultimately what it seems like we're working towards.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's everyone who's compromised in this. You know,
Speaker 2: Tiger and Rory are on the board of directors of
Speaker 2: the PGA Tour. They are also the co founders of
Speaker 2: this t of this TGL, and so which the tours
Speaker 2: invested in. They share intellectual property.
Speaker 5: So Tiger and Rory want to protect.
Speaker 2: This new league they've created, and but that really benefits
Speaker 2: them and the players they've given a.
Speaker 5: Piece of the league too, which are all tour guys.
Speaker 2: No live players have been invited, not Brooks Koepka, not
Speaker 2: Dustin Johnson, who everybody still loves like it's it's to
Speaker 2: the TGL is become a vehicle to continue to buy
Speaker 2: the loyalty of these guys who have stayed loyal to.
Speaker 5: The PGA Tour. And it's like a reward. You get
Speaker 5: to be you get to be in the boys club.
Speaker 5: And so.
Speaker 2: When when this deal gets presented to the Board of
Speaker 2: Directors of the PGA Tour and whatever fashion is, Tiger
Speaker 2: and Roy are gonna have to vote on it. And
Speaker 2: something I've learned is that it has to be unanimous. Two,
Speaker 2: it's it's it's in the tour constitution to change the
Speaker 2: tour's bylaws and to change it's it's it's fundamental governance structure,
Speaker 2: it has to be unanimous vote by the Board of Directors.
Speaker 2: So now you have Patrick Cantley, who we know is
Speaker 2: a rascal.
Speaker 5: In the middle of a lot of things.
Speaker 2: And it's going to be like in Congress when you
Speaker 2: you know, there's one holdout in the Senate, you know,
Speaker 2: to break a tie, and all of a sudden, Oh,
Speaker 2: he's what. We're gonna build a new military base in Alaska,
Speaker 2: and we're gonna like you know what, like all the
Speaker 2: all the pork that goes into these these all this
Speaker 2: all these bills like potentially facing that scenario where the
Speaker 2: tour has has made a decision, you know, the jaymon
Speaker 2: Ands and Jimmy Dunn's, and they've kind of hammered out
Speaker 2: a deal and now the players have to ratify it.
Speaker 2: But they have their own selfish interests which are very
Speaker 2: different from the you know what, Tiger and Rory, their
Speaker 2: concerns about the TGL have nothing to do with what
Speaker 2: you know, Peter mal Natty's trying to keep his card,
Speaker 2: you know who's on the board as well, and a
Speaker 2: web Sinson who's coming to the end of his playing days.
Speaker 5: It appears like.
Speaker 2: So it's this whole process is so interesting and so revealing,
Speaker 2: and so yeah that how who's going to vote, how
Speaker 2: they're going to vote, and of course there'll be tons
Speaker 2: of conversation to get to that point. And it was
Speaker 2: quite interesting that you know, this guy Colin Neville, he's
Speaker 2: a he's at Rain Capital. He was appointed to be
Speaker 2: an advisor to the player directors. Basically, the Tiger Rory
Speaker 2: can't lay Websinson Peter Malnaughty to advise him on the deal.
Speaker 5: Like so, so Jay and.
Speaker 2: Jimmy cannot pull another end around, you know, like especially
Speaker 2: like say Jimmy Dunn. He's a very very sharp businessman.
Speaker 2: He understands seeing at a granular lefs that no mere
Speaker 2: golfer ever could and so he can out fox these guys.
Speaker 2: But you know, they brought in Colin Neville to kind
Speaker 2: of joust with him and explain it to the players
Speaker 2: on this this human level. And so it's you've got
Speaker 2: all these warring camps that are potentially going to have
Speaker 2: to have to come to a unanimous agreement for anything
Speaker 2: to get done.
Speaker 5: So the layers of.
Speaker 2: Intrigue, I mean, it's like trying to elect a new
Speaker 2: pope or you know, it's just there's it's all happening
Speaker 2: again in secret, and we're gonna just have to wait
Speaker 2: for for the next puff of smoke to come out
Speaker 2: the chimney, and and and see where this process is.
Speaker 1: Part of the negativity or the response to your excerpt
Speaker 1: latest excerpt and the book in general, just me you know,
Speaker 1: going through some of the some of the comments certainly
Speaker 1: maybe by the players too as they try try to
Speaker 1: kind of move on or brush aside or get to
Speaker 1: where they need to go, is that you're bringing up
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that took place a year ago.
Speaker 1: You know, you're you're bringing you're bringing back up or
Speaker 1: revealing stuff that was said when tensions were high amongst
Speaker 1: those players, when stuff was actually going down in terms
Speaker 1: of guys were leaving or not leaving, had one toe in,
Speaker 1: but didn't, you know, ultimately pulled back for whatever reason?
Speaker 1: Is that?
Speaker 5: Is that fair to say?
Speaker 1: Is that the sense you're getting is that that a
Speaker 1: lot of these people involved would just assume not have
Speaker 1: all that stuff come out now, given the fact they're
Speaker 1: trying to like move on and come to some sort
Speaker 1: of you know, comprehensible or comprehensive conclusion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, they would love to sweep all under the
Speaker 2: rug of course that that serves their interests, you know, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: that was that was justin Thomas's critique. They can't you
Speaker 2: just say only nice things and.
Speaker 5: You know, not not dwell on this other stuff.
Speaker 2: But it's like, this is how we got to this moment,
Speaker 2: And I just think it's so important for golfers to understand,
Speaker 2: like all this this all just happened in the shadows, right,
Speaker 2: and so no one knows how we got to this moment.
Speaker 2: It's it's just been it's been a series of cover
Speaker 2: ups in low key cover ups and these information wars
Speaker 2: where everyone's trying to control the narrative and what bothers
Speaker 2: a guy like Justin Thomas is he can't control me,
Speaker 2: and I'm just gonna I'm just gonna tell it.
Speaker 5: Like it is.
Speaker 2: What everything I've learned, everything I've been told from both sides,
Speaker 2: synthesize it and create.
Speaker 5: You know, what I.
Speaker 2: Think is is the true story of what actually happened.
Speaker 2: But people, you know, the players, the other other Jay Monahan,
Speaker 2: Greg Norman, they don't want that.
Speaker 5: They want only their version to go out.
Speaker 2: And a guy like Justin has been spoon fed a
Speaker 2: lot of stuff from Jay Monahan and Jimmy Dunn and
Speaker 2: basically told it's fine, we got this under control, don't
Speaker 2: worry about it. We're looking out for your interests. And
Speaker 2: in the end it turned out not to be totally true.
Speaker 2: But it's like they've they've become reliant on the official
Speaker 2: version of events. But that's often not the case, like
Speaker 2: how many press releases go out, you know, but an
Speaker 2: officer involves shooting and it's you know, the passive language,
Speaker 2: and it seems you don't really know what happened, and
Speaker 2: no one pays attention to.
Speaker 5: Then the truth comes out and it's something darker.
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that this battle is on par
Speaker 2: with that, but there's there's like the official version that
Speaker 2: the that the powers that be are peddling often turns
Speaker 2: out not to be the case.
Speaker 5: And you know, my job in this has.
Speaker 2: Been to cut through all that and and find the
Speaker 2: real truth and the real the real heart of this story.
Speaker 2: So is that inconvenient for some players and some bureaucrats,
Speaker 2: you know obviously, but that I don't think that's really
Speaker 2: my issue.
Speaker 5: It's there.
Speaker 1: Well, the other thing is isn't And and this is
Speaker 1: my sense again because we spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: comparing notes and having conversations for every Justin Thomas or
Speaker 1: Brooks Koepka, who are obviously in these elite level of
Speaker 1: you know, fraternities and boys clubs, per you know, how
Speaker 1: we saw the Ryder Cup play out and how you know,
Speaker 1: just the whole dysfunction of that whole process. But for
Speaker 1: every Justin Thomas or Brooks Kopka that says, oh, we're
Speaker 1: sick of Alan Schipnook, I would imagine you probably get
Speaker 1: a lot of text messages, phone calls and DMS from
Speaker 1: a whole slew of other players saying, thank god for
Speaker 1: you because we don't have we don't have a voice
Speaker 1: in the room. We don't actually have any idea of
Speaker 1: what's going on, and never will because we're that that
Speaker 1: filter of communication and information is never it's always going
Speaker 1: to cut short of me being ranked fifty sixth or
Speaker 1: sixty fifth or one hundred and sixty fifth in the
Speaker 1: professional golf world. And they're like, please ease, You're our
Speaker 1: only source of actual information because whatever else we're getting
Speaker 1: is just it's just a bunch of bullshit.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's been interesting.
Speaker 2: I have gotten those kind of comments, and it is
Speaker 2: just such a polarizing subject. And even the media environment
Speaker 2: got polarized, where you know a lot of people reflexively
Speaker 2: pro tour anti live, and I tried to not get
Speaker 2: sucked into that and kind of understand what was going on.
Speaker 2: So like when when the framework agreement was announced, and
Speaker 2: you know, Jay and Jimmy were doing their media tour
Speaker 2: saying we won, We've got all the power, We've got
Speaker 2: the board seats.
Speaker 5: You know, this is great for us.
Speaker 2: And I've been talking to people on Live all along,
Speaker 2: and so they were telling me their version of events.
Speaker 2: And when I when I tried to counter this prevailing
Speaker 2: to our narrative that actually Gasra has the money, he
Speaker 2: has the power.
Speaker 5: I got so much pushback from E.
Speaker 2: There are other even other members of the golf media,
Speaker 2: but you know, they they had not been to a
Speaker 2: live event, they don't have any sources there. They won't
Speaker 2: talk to any of the players, they don't talk to
Speaker 2: any of the executives. And so just by trying to
Speaker 2: tell a complete story, it bothers some people because they
Speaker 2: only want to hear that one version. And I mean,
Speaker 2: of course, it's symptomatic of modern life where you know,
Speaker 2: look at political consumption of news, like if you only
Speaker 2: watch Fox News or you only watch Rachel Maddow, you
Speaker 2: know you have a very specific worldview.
Speaker 5: And when when it.
Speaker 2: Gets countered and people get upset, they get mad, they
Speaker 2: start shouting at you. It's like, well, I'm not saying
Speaker 2: I'm right and you're wrong. I'm just saying, have you
Speaker 2: considered this? And but it's an increasingly difficult conversation to
Speaker 2: have in America today on any topic. And because this
Speaker 2: is this has grown from a golf story to a
Speaker 2: political story then and of course Trump's in the middle
Speaker 2: of everything, and he's obviously a very polarizing figure that
Speaker 2: it definitely it's turned the volume up on all this.
Speaker 2: So yeah, there's definitely there's naysayers, and there's supporters, you know,
Speaker 2: at every level, whether they're players, whether they're they're fellow
Speaker 2: media members, whether they're just people on social media. But
Speaker 2: I try and tune all that out and just like
Speaker 2: focus on telling the story and whatever, whatever the reaction is,
Speaker 2: I can't control that, but this is this is what
Speaker 2: I think the story is, and if you stick to that,
Speaker 2: I think you can avoid getting sucked in and getting
Speaker 2: off track.
Speaker 5: But I didn't see you, Ben Affleck.
Speaker 1: I see as Ben Affleck in The Accountant when that
Speaker 1: in that room where he sequesters himself for like a
Speaker 1: day and he goes through all the pens and he
Speaker 1: writes the you know, the the long equation of how
Speaker 1: all this adds up and the sum total of it
Speaker 1: is just he finds he essentially finds all the all
Speaker 1: the darkness in the in the equation itself, and how
Speaker 1: the numbers don't match up and they don't like what
Speaker 1: he finds finds out and and you're just ripping through
Speaker 1: all these pens and all this paperwork, and you get
Speaker 1: into the sum total of the of the dysfunction agreed,
Speaker 1: the egos, the politics, and the bullshitty.
Speaker 5: That's a that's a great image. I love it.
Speaker 2: But you know, part of why we kind of wanted
Speaker 2: to have this discussion is because there's so much happening
Speaker 2: all around us, and like you just came in hot
Speaker 2: from Las Vegas.
Speaker 5: There was this big convention of sort of.
Speaker 2: Thought leaders in golf around sustainability, around water, and you know,
Speaker 2: you and I just talking offline it really it really
Speaker 2: sparked my interest. I want to can you take people
Speaker 2: into the room a little bit, Matt and what you
Speaker 2: learned and just kind of set the scene because again
Speaker 2: it's like we're all affected by what's happened in Palestine.
Speaker 2: Has happen anything to do with water consumption in Las Vegas?
Speaker 2: Of course not, But somehow golf gets mixed up into
Speaker 2: all these things where you know, NBS puts out a
Speaker 2: statement that can affect the framework agreement, What what happens
Speaker 2: the future water is going to directly affect golf and
Speaker 2: how we all play and enjoy it. And so you know,
Speaker 2: you and I are always trying to connect these threads.
Speaker 5: But what what did you learn out there? Well, yeah,
Speaker 5: I was.
Speaker 1: I was asked to go to Las Vegas, of all places,
Speaker 1: to talk about water, which, on the at the face
Speaker 1: of it, you're like, oh, they're having a It was
Speaker 1: the Colorado Basin Golf and Water Summit. The National Golf
Speaker 1: Course Owners Association put on back to back days of
Speaker 1: Golf Business Tech. It was Golf Business Tech con that
Speaker 1: rolled right into the Colorado Basin Golf and Water Summit.
Speaker 1: To summarize what I learned, being sort of in the
Speaker 1: bloodstream of both those days would be would be very tough.
Speaker 1: I'm still processing a lot of too copious notes and
Speaker 1: was learning from a lot of different perspectives, voices, experts, panelists,
Speaker 1: you know, tent poles of the game.
Speaker 5: Golf.
Speaker 1: Here's here's you know. There's The good news is there's
Speaker 1: a lot of smart people trying to figure out the
Speaker 1: issue that revolves around water, not only as it relates
Speaker 1: to golf, but as it relates to humanity. So I
Speaker 1: walked away feeling much more positive about the amount of research,
Speaker 1: the passion, the experts you know that are involved in
Speaker 1: trying to make sure that again forget golf for a second,
Speaker 1: that we as a society will continue to be able to,
Speaker 1: you know, have a sustainable future. I mean that, that's
Speaker 1: you know, and I think that was shared by a
Speaker 1: lot of people in the room. I wish more people
Speaker 1: were in the room to hear what was said, to
Speaker 1: ask questions that they might have or not have. Jay Karen,
Speaker 1: National Golf Course Owners Association, Rhett Evans of the Golf
Speaker 1: Course Superintendent's Association of America, Don Ray, vice president of
Speaker 1: the PJ of America, Craig Kessler Southern California Golf Association
Speaker 1: of Matt Pringle from the United States Golf Association, all
Speaker 1: in the room. Okay, so that's that that was important.
Speaker 1: You know, Don Ray from I don't know if you
Speaker 1: know him from the pg of America.
Speaker 5: Vice president in line the reputation.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, a powerhouse. Uh, someone who grabbed the
Speaker 1: microphone never spoke from a single note, talked about how
Speaker 1: and pointed out how the National Golf Course Owners Association
Speaker 1: should be commended for the fact that they're one of
Speaker 1: the most underfunded organizations in golf and yet they put
Speaker 1: together these these you know, conferences, these summits to to
Speaker 1: to create this this this you know these days of
Speaker 1: information and best practices and information sharing situation that that
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people benefited from that. You know,
Speaker 1: Don Rey stuck out to me and as and as
Speaker 1: an organization that you know, has the sixteen thousand members,
Speaker 1: he said that four thousand of his members are going
Speaker 1: to be directly impacted by water on an ongoing basis. Right,
Speaker 1: So that's think about the members of the PGA of America.
Speaker 1: A fourth of his membership are going to be dealing
Speaker 1: with water issues on a regular basis. So he admitted, Hey,
Speaker 1: maybe we haven't been in the room as often as
Speaker 1: we probably should have. We are here now, and we
Speaker 1: are here to stay like that was a big takeaway
Speaker 1: for me. The PGA of America. You know, the USGA
Speaker 1: is doing things can and are going to committed to
Speaker 1: doing ongoing things to try to create you know, better practices.
Speaker 1: It relates to water and sustainability. We're seeing what's going
Speaker 1: in and Alistair McKenzie's famed greens at Pasa Tiempo and
Speaker 1: understanding better about how that irrigation process you know works,
Speaker 1: and and all of those little things matter. You know,
Speaker 1: what's being done at Golden Gate Park. You know, the
Speaker 1: removing of all the thatch that comes with a golf
Speaker 1: course that's gotten you know long in the tooth. Well,
Speaker 1: that matching is a problem because that water is not
Speaker 1: going into the ground and therefore, you know, it's not
Speaker 1: being sort of, you know, reused in a way that
Speaker 1: is sustainable. So I mean at a federal level, this
Speaker 1: woman Stacy Wade was in the in the room. She
Speaker 1: provided a lot of incredible information about what's happening at
Speaker 1: the federal level to try to support the states as
Speaker 1: they manage and try to create better sustainable futures for
Speaker 1: the states. A woman by the name of Kolby Peller
Speaker 1: you can't make it up. Colby Pellegrino, as a deputy
Speaker 1: General Manager Resources at Southern Nevada Water Authority, was an
Speaker 1: absolute rock star. So between I don't know, Don Rey
Speaker 1: and Colby Pellegrino, I was like, these two really stuck
Speaker 1: out to me as people who are making a difference
Speaker 1: and they're going to continue to make a difference from
Speaker 1: you know, a state level sheet. You know, Nevada will
Speaker 1: be at an all time low in terms of how
Speaker 1: much water they're using from the Colorado River in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty three. That's important because almost all of you know,
Speaker 1: all of their water is imported, right, They're not getting
Speaker 1: any natural water.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I don't know Paul Rotzer from you know, from
Speaker 1: from artificial intelligence. He's an authority in AI. He was
Speaker 1: the big takeaway from the Golf Business TechCon, you know,
Speaker 1: the Nation Golf Course Owners Association and what they're doing,
Speaker 1: the fact that all those tent poles were in the room.
Speaker 1: Don Ray, you know, being who he is, and the
Speaker 1: potential impact he'll have going forward, what Nevada, in the
Speaker 1: state of Nevada is doing to be sustainable, in creating
Speaker 1: a blueprint or an answer key for what other states
Speaker 1: are going to have to try to, you know, wrangle
Speaker 1: over the course of the future and a depleted water
Speaker 1: you know, water resources is the kind of stuff that
Speaker 1: I'm trying to process as I leave Nevada and and
Speaker 1: go back over my notes and try to kind of
Speaker 1: wrap my brain around the future of again humanity, but
Speaker 1: then again golf as well. There was one guy also
Speaker 1: worth mentioning because he made such an incrazing, incredible, impassioned speech.
Speaker 1: I wrote his name down. Pat Christopher, director of agronomy
Speaker 1: at red ledges in Hebrew City, Utah, you know, essentially
Speaker 1: saying conservation works and asked the question, if we had
Speaker 1: to start building golf today, what would it look like
Speaker 1: if we know what we know now about water resources?
Speaker 1: And you know, I did that story on Pasa Tiempo
Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen for Golf Channel during Water Week about
Speaker 1: how they diversified their portfolio and essentially made a deal
Speaker 1: with Scott's Valley who has an incredible reclamation plant in
Speaker 1: which some of a big chunk of their reclaimed water
Speaker 1: was going out to the ocean. And then you know,
Speaker 1: Scott Hoyt and Justin Mandon and the membership at Pasa
Speaker 1: Tempo were able to sprint make a deal in which
Speaker 1: they get that reclaim water from neighboring Scott's Valley. That
Speaker 1: was a huge success story that Pasa Tempo is benefiting now. Well,
Speaker 1: if we can have more of those stories again, is
Speaker 1: that a golf story or is that is that a
Speaker 1: you know, is that a business story as it relates
Speaker 1: to you know, Santa Cruz Pass Tiempo. The people who
Speaker 1: work come from Scott's Valley work at Passe Tempa. The
Speaker 1: property values in and around that area that the ripple
Speaker 1: effect of connecting the dots and making sure that water
Speaker 1: isn't just going out to the ocean goat Hill Park,
Speaker 1: going from pottable water to reclaim water is the reason
Speaker 1: why John Ashworth has a has a sustainable business model
Speaker 1: at this community asset in which now it's a thriving,
Speaker 1: you know, piece of the ocean side community bringing national
Speaker 1: interest from all over the world. Well, that doesn't happen
Speaker 1: if he doesn't connect those dots and get the politicians
Speaker 1: to make the necessary changes so that he's on reclaim
Speaker 1: water instead of pottable water. You know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like all of this is so connected and you know,
Speaker 1: positive stories as you mentioned Golden Gate Park youthon Course,
Speaker 1: how much you know we're working, you know, in step
Speaker 1: with them. They have two thousand courses under contract and
Speaker 1: one hundred and ninety thousand kids who are now members
Speaker 1: who now have access to the game of golf for
Speaker 1: five dollars or less. Accessibility, affordability, you know, sustainability as
Speaker 1: it relates to sort of kids getting in the game
Speaker 1: of golf and having the life experiences that have changed
Speaker 1: our lives. And so many people who listen to this podcast,
Speaker 1: Western Golf Association, Evans Scholars, Canal Shores, what Kemper Sports,
Speaker 1: WGA and so many other local and privatized investors are
Speaker 1: doing to try to help Canal Shores turn that business
Speaker 1: model around, which is going to be attached to the
Speaker 1: Western Golf Association and the kids that are going to
Speaker 1: get access to that golf course, plus the junior caddy
Speaker 1: programs that are going to be involved, you know, Maggie Hathaway,
Speaker 1: which we did a feature on last year leading into
Speaker 1: the US Open, which we know is about to get
Speaker 1: fifteen million dollars inserted into that municipal golf course, plus
Speaker 1: Cobbs Creek in Philadelphia, Jones that success story in Atlanta,
Speaker 1: you know, and then all leading up to the Wishbone
Speaker 1: Brall which will happen November eleventh, in which Xander Schoffley,
Speaker 1: who might get dragged into some of these conversations as
Speaker 1: it relates to whatever is happening at the professional game.
Speaker 5: Oh, by the way, this is a guy for.
Speaker 1: The last six years has donated time and money and
Speaker 1: resources into North County junior golf. He went to San
Speaker 1: Diego State from the area. He's you know, given a
Speaker 1: ton of time and money into making sure this Wishbone
Speaker 1: Brawl which they play per Simmons at a forty five
Speaker 1: forty six hundred yard golf course with the likes of
Speaker 1: Dean Wi Wilson, Jeff Ogley, Fred Couple's, Charlie Hoffman, Chris Riley,
Speaker 1: local pros like Will Crop and Colin Featherstone is playing
Speaker 1: this year. And then this beautiful component of the story
Speaker 1: this year in which Jasmine and Janey Leaveo, who started
Speaker 1: in North County Junior golf caddied at some of the
Speaker 1: first few Wishbone Brawls now are playing at long each
Speaker 1: state and are going to compete together as partners in
Speaker 1: this year's Wishbone Brawl, competing against Ogilvie and you know
Speaker 1: either Will Krop or Chris Riley or Colin Featherstone and
Speaker 1: Xander Schoffley and on their bags are going to be
Speaker 1: the Lee twins Aida and Annabel who caddied for Fred
Speaker 1: Couples and Will Crop last year, Fred Couples and Jeffrey
Speaker 1: Ogivie last year, Fred Couples and Will Crop the year before.
Speaker 1: Aida and Annabel Lee are going to be cadding for
Speaker 1: Jasmine and Janey, two pairs of twins who have grown
Speaker 1: up playing in North County junior golf. So you want
Speaker 1: positive stories, that's what we're also working on.
Speaker 3: Oh by the.
Speaker 2: Way, Well said, yeah, it's you know, used to be
Speaker 2: this time of year was slow in golf. You know,
Speaker 2: it's like it just it just never it never ends.
Speaker 2: There's so much intrigue. But it's heartening to hear about
Speaker 2: the water symposium, and it's cool that you were there
Speaker 2: because otherwise it would people it wouldn't be disseminated. You know,
Speaker 2: the folks in that room don't necessarily have platforms or
Speaker 2: megaphones or know how to how to get the information out,
Speaker 2: and so it's valuable that you would take the time
Speaker 2: to immerse yourself in that, and obviously it'll inform whatever
Speaker 2: reporting we do going forward on these environmental things. But anyway,
Speaker 2: it's always fun to check in with you, Matt and
Speaker 2: just see what you've been up to and what's on
Speaker 2: your mind. Obviously I've been paling hard here as well,
Speaker 2: so it's kind of kind of fun to have these
Speaker 2: state of the fire Pit discussions occasionally and bring people
Speaker 2: behind the curtain a little bit. Anything else we need
Speaker 2: to touch on before we release the listeners.
Speaker 1: No, I mean, I'm heading off to San franiscolp. Jay
Speaker 1: Blasei's picking me up at the airport tomorrow. I'm going
Speaker 1: to go get eyes on what ultimately is the finished
Speaker 1: product of that Golden Gate Park project, in which Dan
Speaker 1: Burke deserves a ton of credit as the guy who
Speaker 1: runs the first tee of San Franci Cisco and you know,
Speaker 1: really got the ball rolling as it relates to this
Speaker 1: this project and got you know, privatized investors into making
Speaker 1: what's going to be a huge difference just down the
Speaker 1: street from Harding Park, you know. And Dan brought in
Speaker 1: Jay who is donating his his fees to be a
Speaker 1: part of this nine to hole restoration renovation, renaissance of
Speaker 1: the of this piece of property. Josh Lewis has has
Speaker 1: been critical in helping Jay and the San Francisco City
Speaker 1: Parks Department make sure that, you know, what they're doing
Speaker 1: from an agronomics standpoint, is going to be sustainable and
Speaker 1: make sure that this golf course remains playing and playable
Speaker 1: as Jay sort of envisions it. So I'm going to
Speaker 1: be seeing that tomorrow, and then I'm going to a
Speaker 1: Youth on Course Board meeting on Thursday again, honored to
Speaker 1: be a part small part of of what youthon Course
Speaker 1: is doing. And then I'm going to be busting down
Speaker 1: to Will for another one of your one, another one
Speaker 1: of your book signings at Wilshire Country Club. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: the game of golf, going back to the beginning, is
Speaker 1: so much more than just the people who get paid
Speaker 1: to play it, and it dominates our eyes and the
Speaker 1: optics of what we see on a day to day basis.
Speaker 1: But I just think it's important and everybody listening knows this.
Speaker 1: You know, we're working on a story on the father
Speaker 1: daughter Anya Donagan from Lahinch and the impact she had
Speaker 1: on the Women's US Open from a little town next
Speaker 1: to La Hinch. I mean, what we're doing and how
Speaker 1: we're doing it is so much more than just you know,
Speaker 1: you writing these these these books, which is a huge
Speaker 1: chunk of effort and energy to try to like peel
Speaker 1: back and shine a light into those deep dark corners
Speaker 1: and shadows of the professional game. But when you do
Speaker 1: something like a water symposium, where you go to something
Speaker 1: you like a Youth on Course board meeting, or you
Speaker 1: go to Golden Gate Park and realize, you know, everything
Speaker 1: is connected and it's important to keep some perspective and
Speaker 1: not just yell, but sometimes listen.
Speaker 5: I love it perfect, Mike Drop. That was Matt Janella.
Speaker 5: This is Alan Shipnik.
Speaker 2: Thanks for going along in this little journey with us
Speaker 2: through the life and times of the fire Pit Collective
Speaker 2: this minute.
Speaker 5: We generally we like to.
Speaker 2: Tell other people's stories, but once in a while it's
Speaker 2: kind of worth worth looking at what we're up to individually,
Speaker 2: So appreciate you.
Speaker 5: Maddie.
Speaker 2: To the listeners, thanks for sticking with us. As always,
Speaker 2: thanks to our corporate supporters at link Soul and at Dormy.
Speaker 2: In fact, I should actually, probably since we're paying bills
Speaker 2: right now, should say that Dormy has created some beautiful
Speaker 2: leather headcovers that have that skull icon from the cover
Speaker 2: of my book. If you're into it, it's oh.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we have hats. The hats just came in. They
Speaker 5: look amazing.
Speaker 2: So we do this because we love telling stories, but
Speaker 2: we like to keep the lights on as well, So
Speaker 2: thanks for our sponsors. As always, this is another Fire
Speaker 2: Drill podcast. Will be back in your ear soon. For now,
Speaker 2: that's the end. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3: I'm been big again. I played the wind made a fortune.
Speaker 4: When my ship came man, I ran the table, never
Speaker 4: thought I could fall down.
Speaker 6: The winter time hit me like a canon the ball,
Speaker 6: and now I can't shape this losing stream. Every road
Speaker 6: I take is a dead end stream.
Speaker 3: I got thoughts in my head, can't.
Speaker 4: Get them trying not to think what I'm thinking about.
Speaker 3: I've got Thou in my head. I can't get them out,
Speaker 3: trying not a thing I'm thinking about.