1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: Most of the time on Benchmark we talk about some 2 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: of the biggest issues in the global economy, including growth, inflation, wages, 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: and central banks. But today we're turning to a big 4 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: issue in the economics profession itself. Just as the worlds 5 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: of media and politics are having their own reckoning with 6 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: sexual harassment and misconduct following the Harvey Weinstein scandal, male 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: economists are being forced to confront a history of sexism 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: among themselves that has persisted to this day and festered 9 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: in ways that are frankly pretty shocking. Now women are 10 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: speaking out about their experiences and turning the research paper 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: into a powerful tool to shine a light on the 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: dark side of their profession. Welcome to Benchmark. I'm Scott 13 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: landman and economics editor with Bloomberg News in Washington, and 14 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: I'm Daniel Moss, economics writer editor at Bloomberg View in 15 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: New York. Dan, is it fair to say that economics 16 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: is a male dominated profession? It is, and if we 17 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: look at a couple of anecdotes from the American Economic 18 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: Association Annual Conference, they tell a story. The vast majority 19 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: of panelists at formal sessions were men, and yet he 20 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: is an interesting dichotomy. Many of the students appeared to 21 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: be women. Well, maybe it's an omen for the future 22 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 1: that the number of women in the profession really will 23 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: increase if some of these trends keep holding. But anyway, 24 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: we have two guests today who are going to tell 25 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: us a lot more about this topic. Later, we'll be 26 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: talking with our colleague Gina Smilek, who's written about this 27 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: issue for Bloomberg recently. But first, we have an economist 28 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: with a long and distinguished experience in the field who 29 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: recently led a petition drive to change the way job 30 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: vacancies are posted in economics. Her name is Heidi Hartman, 31 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: and she's the founder and resident of the Institute for 32 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: Women's Policy Research in Washington, as well as a professor 33 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: at George Washington University. Here, she's also the editor of 34 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: the Journal of Women Politics and Policy, and she joins 35 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: us by phone today. Heidi, thanks so much for taking 36 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: the time to be with us on Benchmark My pleasure. 37 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: Let me start off, Heidi, with the basic question, how 38 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: much of a share of the economics profession to women 39 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: constitute in terms of academic positions as well as in 40 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: government and the private sector, And how has that changed 41 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: at all in the last twenty years or so. Well. 42 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: I heard Betsy Stevenson, who was a member of the 43 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: Council of Economic Advisors under Obama, say that there has 44 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: been no change since nine I think she was particularly 45 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: referring to college majors. At the same time, the share 46 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: of women college majors in engineering and computer science and 47 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: physics has increased, and of course in fields like psychology 48 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: and biology, women are the majority of college majors. So 49 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: math they are close to the majority in college majors. 50 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 1: So the idea that you know, the reason we don't 51 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: have more female economists is that they can't do math, 52 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: which is a common chivalis, is not true according to her, 53 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: and the lack of progress stands out in comparison to 54 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: all the other fields. The higher up you go in 55 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: the hierarchy of prestige jobs like top rated universities, the 56 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 1: fewer women you'll find in academics. You'll find more community colleges, 57 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: you'll find more in government. Government is historically a less 58 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: discriminating environment. It's a fairer environment. And even in the 59 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: corporate sector you might find more economists, although I'm not 60 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: sure about that one. That sounds pretty ironic given the 61 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: chair of the Federal Reserve, admittedly departing, is a woman. Yes, 62 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: And Betsy Stevenson also gave a paper on principles textbooks 63 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: and how often they mentioned women in examples, Like you 64 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: make up an example about business manager and a worker, 65 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: most typically the higher level person will be made up 66 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: as a male and the lower level person will be 67 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: made up as a female. And in the real world 68 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: they don't take as many examples of women economists as 69 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,039 Speaker 1: there actually are in the field. I guess there are 70 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: about in the PhD market, and their examples and textbooks 71 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: are about half of that. In the policy maker arena 72 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: Janet Yellen herself accounts for of all mentions of female 73 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: policy makers and economics. I saw that statistic, and I 74 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: found that absolutely astounding. But maybe, Heidi, can you tell 75 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: us a little bit more about why the underrepresentation of 76 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: women is so ingrained in the economics profession and whereas 77 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: that hasn't you know, those barriers have kind of been 78 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: broken in some of the other fields you mentioned. Well, 79 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: I think part of it is just the very way 80 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: we detend to define economics. We talk about the rational 81 00:04:54,720 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: economic man, we talk about scarcity and allocating scarce goods 82 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: and the marketplace and production outside the home is the 83 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: main field of economics. But a lot of what is 84 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: now called human provisioning is done in the home by 85 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: unpaid labor. And that's been historically the realm of women 86 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: and is still disproportionately the realm of women, and that 87 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: has been, you know, for the most part, defined out 88 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: of bounds for economics. Now that's changing, but you know, 89 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: you still have GDP figures that do not include unpaid 90 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: labor except in satellite accounts. Unpaid labor as a deterrent 91 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: to paid labor, where the productivity might be higher, is 92 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 1: not even included in our macroeconomic models. So our models 93 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: of long term growth are incomplete because we don't include 94 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: what some of the barriers might be the labor force participation, 95 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: such as the need to provision for families and to 96 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: raise children and take care of elders. Heidie, have you 97 00:05:55,120 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: personally faced barriers? Well, yes and no. I think that 98 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: I found that academia would be difficult for me based 99 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: on the kind of response my work was getting. I 100 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: always focused on gender. I was cautioned by many people 101 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: not to focus on gender. That would be a bad 102 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: move in the profession, And so I decided to start 103 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: my own think tank in my early forties. And why 104 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: would that be a bad move, Because it's undervalued in economics, 105 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: women often tend to go into labor economics where they 106 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: can study topics that appear to interest them more topics 107 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: like unemployment, poverty, and those topics are, you know, not 108 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: the mainstream of the field. The mainstream of the field 109 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: or macroeconomics, financial economics, international economics, and micro economics. Now 110 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: in the area of microeconomics, it was Gary Becker, rather 111 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: conservative economists, who opened the whole area of the new 112 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: household economics, in which he opened the concept of house 113 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,679 Speaker 1: decision making and that included unpaid labor. But he tended 114 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: to say that the household as a whole maximize their 115 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: joint utility, and he kind of ignored any conflicts between 116 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: men and women, and I've tended to focus on conflicts 117 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: between men and women. For example, the way I look 118 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,239 Speaker 1: at the economics field is very different from the way 119 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: many of my academic economists friends look at it. I 120 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: look at as a as a turf war. I believe 121 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: white men in particular are digging in their heels to 122 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: keep that field for themselves, and they tend to come 123 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: from a conservative background. They often migrate over from engineering 124 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: and mathematics, which is probably a little bit of a 125 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: more conservative background than if you migrated, say from sociology 126 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: and economics. So people tend to self segregate, perhaps at 127 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: an early age, and the women may be discouraged from 128 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: the way the courses are taught. We don't see examples 129 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: of women in the textbooks. We don't see examples of 130 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: particular questions of interest to women. One woman says that 131 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: I shouldn't want to go into economics because she thought 132 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: it was all about how to help corporations make more money. Now, 133 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: this leads us into a topic that we want to 134 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: discuss with you, because you've been heavily involved in it lately. 135 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: What is economics job market rumors? And how did it start? 136 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: When did you hear about it? Well? I honestly only 137 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: heard about it a short time ago, right around the 138 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: time that Justin Wolfers wrote a New York Times opinion 139 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: piece about it in August of so, less than a 140 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: year ago. That's because I'm not often searching on the 141 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: academic job market for new PhD candidates. And I'm not 142 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: in an academic department full time, so I wasn't aware 143 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: of it. But the field itself has been aware of 144 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: it for about ten years, and it appears to be 145 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: something that was started as a public service by a few, 146 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: largely men. It appears somewhere, I'm not sure where, and 147 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: they run it not only for economics, but from sociology 148 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: in political for sociology and political science. And there is 149 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: an official job market that is run by the a A. 150 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: It's called Joe Job Openings for economists and there, if 151 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: you're an employer hiring, as I was this year, you 152 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: put in your ad and you get a lot of 153 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: applications and you screen them and you set up interviews 154 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: at the annual meetings. But there's a whole process that 155 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,959 Speaker 1: actually starts before that and after that, where you might 156 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: be selecting your candidates, flying them out to your campus, 157 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: and a lot of people want to know exactly what's 158 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: going on with that, who's playing out, who's been offered, 159 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: has the position been filled? And they want that information 160 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: in real time, and the way they get it is 161 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: through rumors they posted anonymously on this job board created 162 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: by these virtually anonymous people. One is called kirk and 163 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 1: along with that, anonymous postings can also include comments about 164 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: the candidates, such as she's hot and he's smart or 165 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: even brilliant, or a great macroeconomist. The study that Josin 166 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: Wolfer's popularized by putting it in the New York Times 167 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: was done by a senior at Berkeley, Alice Woo, and 168 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: she used all kinds of software that can just measure, 169 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: count and identify the words used about female and male coundates. 170 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: You don't know who's making the comments, but you can 171 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: tell using names which ones are female, which ones are male. 172 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: And in addition to all the comments skirless comments about 173 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: women and very few skirless comments about men in the 174 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: top twenty terms, she found also terrible comments about every 175 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: minority group, whether gay and lesbian, Black, Hispanic, Asian, American, Muslim, American, Jewish, 176 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: every minority group was let me just stop you there 177 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: and come back to something you said. We're talking about 178 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: a group of nominally sophisticated, well educated people and they're 179 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: putting in job postings she's hot. Well, it's not so 180 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: much job things. The job postings. Official job postings are elsewhere. 181 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: This is where you put the information about who's coming 182 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: to campus, who's going to get the job, and you say, well, 183 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: Susie Smith is not going to get the job because 184 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: she's stupid. And they use language like that pretty regularly 185 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: on that site. Yeah, yeah, and it's it's anonymous. And 186 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: these may be from they could even be from non economists, 187 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: but most people acknowledge their economists. They could be graduate students, 188 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: they could be assistant professors that could be competing assistant 189 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: professors who don't want Susie Smith to get the job, 190 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: so they not only say she's hot, but they say 191 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: she's a whore or something else. And now the time 192 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 1: right for a me too movement in academic economics. Well, 193 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: there may be. I mean, I have heard stories of 194 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: women who have been propositioned and worse, but those are 195 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: not the prevalence stories. The prevalence stories are more about 196 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: the aggression in the field of men, particularly towards women's 197 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 1: So it's known as a very aggressive field. You give 198 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: your job talk or any invited paper, and you're criticized. 199 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: That's the dominant language and economics. It's not well, you know, 200 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: I was thinking a different approach might be. You could 201 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: take blah blah blah, and then we might get better 202 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: results on blah blah blah. No is, why did you 203 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: do it that way? There's a much better way to 204 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: do it, don't you know that? And your way is stupid, right, 205 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: that's how That's a lot of the language I've heard 206 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: over the years, right, yeah, yeah, And so that's just 207 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: our culture now, Heidi, I just wanted to ask you 208 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 1: before we turn to Gina, how surprised were you at 209 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: the success of your petition drive to create a more 210 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: legitimate site than economics job market rumors. I mean you 211 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: you ended up getting over a thousand signatures. Tell us 212 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 1: a little bit more about that. Yes, my colleague Michael 213 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: Reich who's at Berkeley, and he and I went to 214 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: Swarthmore College together, where we both majored in economics. We 215 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: were surprised at how quickly it caught on. It. It 216 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: caught on like wildfire, and we had six hundred within 217 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of weeks, and we let the 218 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: A A know what was happening. And it was finally 219 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: at that point, I think around October that they issued 220 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: their first formal statement opposing the language on e g I. MR. 221 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: They didn't even do that from August when it was 222 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: exposed in the Times until late October, and then October 223 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: officially transmitted our petition and by the time we shut 224 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: it down for signatures we had, we were surprised at 225 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 1: how quickly it moved. It is, as far as we know, 226 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: the largest number of signatures that's ever been delivered to 227 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: the A and it was very successful and I think 228 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: very significant because the nub of the problem is hiring. 229 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: If we hired more women in economics, they do have, 230 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: on average, I would say, is somewhat less aggressive style 231 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: than successful men. And the more successful women we have 232 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 1: in the field, the better the culture will be for everyone. 233 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: Let me turn to Gina now, Gina smile like vers 234 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: the U s. Economy and Federal Reserve for Bloomberg News 235 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: in New York. She's with Dan in our studio there today. Gina, 236 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 1: welcome back to Benchmark. Thank you. Gina. Can you tell 237 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: us a little bit more about your reporting on economics, 238 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: job market rumors and the kinds of stories you've heard 239 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: about the barriers women facing economics. I know you recently 240 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: interviewed a professor at the University of Maryland. Maybe you 241 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: can tell us a little bit about that too. Yeah, 242 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: absolutely so. So while at the AA meetings down in Philadelphia, 243 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: I got really interested in this topic because it was 244 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: so much the buzz in the air was something that 245 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: people were talking about, and so I sort of poked 246 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: around and was trying to figure out of economics as 247 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: having a me to moment and sort of, like Heidi said, 248 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: what I really found is it's more talking about sort 249 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: of this systemic sexism than any individual stories. But I 250 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: did find this one woman who was willing to talk 251 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: about her experience with economic job market rumors. And her 252 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: name is Melissa arne Um. She's a really well respected 253 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: economist at the University of Maryland. She's tenured there and 254 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: she's also a senior fellow the Brookings Institution. So this 255 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: is one with a pretty crazy CV. And what was 256 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: really shocking to me is she almost quit the field 257 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: because she was facing so much harassment on this website. 258 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: And you know, it was the kind of thing where 259 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: she would go to a conference and immediately there would 260 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: be a thread just criticizing her paper, pulling it apart, 261 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: talking about her and really sort of vulgar terms. And 262 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: then one of the examples that was just shocking to me, 263 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: is she was at one conference and they kept posting 264 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: her locations, they posted her whereabouts just kind of you know, 265 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: to let her know that they had an eye on her, 266 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: and that kind of her assment just you know, obviously 267 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: was a huge problem for her, and she didn't know 268 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: how to how to sort of handle it, and she 269 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: ended up sticking it out and it's sort of calmed 270 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: down over time. But I think this is sort of 271 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: a watershed moment that economics as a field is finally 272 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: talking about the site that has been a problem for 273 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: a lot of prominent female economists for quite a while now. 274 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: So not quite a me too moment in the sense 275 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: that it's been generally understood until now, but definitely something 276 00:15:54,720 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: going on and perhaps just as debilitating for the victims. Yeah, 277 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: I think what I think this is what I think 278 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: the headline we used on our story is and less 279 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: of a me to a moment and more of a reckoning. 280 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: So this isn't the kind of thing where everyone's you know, 281 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: sort of holding hands and jump in outing names and 282 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: exposing high profile abuse in the field. What it is 283 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: sort of looking at this problem empirically and saying you know, 284 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: here's data that shows that women are talked about in 285 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: physical terms, here's data that shows that women aren't talked 286 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: about in professional terms and textbooks. Here's data that shows 287 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: why undergraduate women aren't getting into and staying in economics 288 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: and especially macroeconomics. And I think sort of that kind 289 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: of empiricism is really comfortable in the economics field and 290 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: is also sort of a way to drive change for them. 291 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: And speaking of empiricism, aren't their realms of data showing 292 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: that the most prosperous, the most affluent, the most secure 293 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: societies are the ones that also embrace diversity in all 294 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: its forms. So like what gives here? Yeah, And I 295 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: think it's interesting. And I think the thing is if 296 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: you talk to a lot of women in economics, and 297 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: I mean, Heidi probably has a better csp on this 298 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: than I do, But it seems like if you talk 299 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: to a lot of women in economics and men in economics, 300 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: they'll tell you that there are a field that wants 301 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: to embrace diversity. I think it's often not even a 302 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: conscious decision that diversity is being discouraged in some ways, 303 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: it's sort of the subtle thing, like the language and 304 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: textbooks that just makes the field unwelcoming to women, but 305 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: that you might not recognize at face value. And so 306 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: I think this is this sort of deep dive into 307 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: sort of the roots of the problem, the reasons that 308 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: undergraduate women are not joining the economics field, is going 309 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: to be an interesting thing to watch going forward. Could 310 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: I tell one story I interviewed for a job as 311 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: an assistant professor at Swarthmore College, my alma mater, and 312 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: one professor who who whom I knew personally but had 313 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 1: become on the faculty thereafter I left. When I asked 314 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: him whether there was any women's studies program at Swarthmore 315 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: in front of other people, he said, oh, I think 316 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: the door is behind the coke machine and the basement 317 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: of the library. Now, I don't think that's an unconscious stay. So, yes, 318 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: there are well meaning men and women who believe the data, 319 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: want the data, and want to make change, But there 320 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: are plenty of particularly men in the field, who don't 321 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: want change, who actively put down women in order to 322 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: keep change from happening. So that's sort of a conceit 323 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: right now. Based on the New York Times article, the 324 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: front page article that oh, it's just a bunch of 325 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: well meaning, rational people, and once they get this data, 326 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: they're going to change. The Committee on the Status of 327 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 1: Women in an Economics profession has existed since nineteen seventy 328 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: one and they haven't gotten much changed since nineteen seventy one, 329 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: and they've been producing data since nineteen seventy one. So 330 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: do you think it's going to change now? Well? I 331 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: think so, But people have to fight, and the petition 332 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: is the first fight. The session of the papers that 333 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: I went to was very good. It was very well attended. 334 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: I think it was well attended because the press had 335 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: already started covering the petition drive and people knew it 336 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 1: was an issue and people had signed a petition. Now. Interestingly, 337 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: most of the women giving papers to the high profile 338 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: women in the profession to sign the petition. They told 339 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: us personally they supported it, but they didn't want to 340 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 1: sign it. Question for both Heidie and Gina. As Janet 341 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: Yellen prepares to depart, what sort of role model has 342 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: she been or could she become depending on what she 343 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: does now? For women in economics, And I don't just 344 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: mean academic economics, I mean people who use economics in 345 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: their place of work. You're a journalist, but you cover 346 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: economics for example. Yeah, you know. So, Actually, I have 347 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: a good anecdotal story about this that I think it 348 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: is sort of telling. So my colleague Janet, who covers 349 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: in damage, Janet Lauren, has a little daughter, Charlie, and 350 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: Charlie is obsessed with Jenny Ellen and economics because her 351 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: mom told her the Jennie Ellen's the most important woman 352 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: in the world, and that would be right. Yeah. Well, 353 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: and I think it's really interesting because I think that, 354 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: you know, she's a little girl who's going to be 355 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: a little bit more focused on macroeconomics, some sort of 356 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 1: monetary policy, these sort of issues as she grows up 357 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: because Jenny Ellen was in that job. She's actually pretty 358 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: upset the Jennie l and lost her job. She doesn't 359 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: understand why. But I think it's really interesting to to 360 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: sort of think about how that's going to shape a 361 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: generation of future economists. Heidi, your thoughts on that, I agree. 362 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: Jenny Ellen has been fantastic. She's held two conferences on 363 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: diversity in the economics profession, specifically giving a great speech 364 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: at the first one on how diversity within the profession 365 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: would improve the science of economics, would make us include 366 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 1: more questions, would give us better answers, who would be 367 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: better able to anticipate recessions and how to get out 368 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: of them, and a host of other questions. And she's 369 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: just been fantastic. By the way, you can still buy 370 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: I think small t shirts for Childler's at the Federal 371 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: Reserve Board gift shop. That's a future chair of the 372 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: Federal Reserve Board. Pink and blue. I think they come 373 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: in right. Well. I have a two year old her 374 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: I'm definitely going to think about that for her third birthday. 375 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: Better get it now. I wanted to come back to 376 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: another question about these research papers. I mean, one thing 377 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: that really struck me is that you mentioned papers by 378 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: Alice Woo. I think there are others that kind of 379 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: highlight some of these issues with the job board and 380 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 1: some other things. In the economics profession and in my 381 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: covering the economics world in my career, I've just see 382 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: so many research papers that are dominated by math, complex 383 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: formulas and conclusions that tend to be pretty incremental, just 384 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: incrementally advancing our knowledge of of whatever topic it is. 385 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: Is that good? I mean, is that also a function 386 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: of the male dominance of economics and would things be 387 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: different with greater female presence in the profession, Well, this 388 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: is Heidi, I think it would be. But I think 389 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: it's it's a different trade of economics. It's the trade 390 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: of economics to be highly control old. As to what 391 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: constitutes economics, the neo classical framework is dominant. Yes, it's 392 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: lead in game theory. Yes it's let in behavioral economics. 393 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: But we have a whole new association, the International Association 394 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: for Feminist Economics, which I believe is about twenty plus 395 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: years old, and um it started in order to create 396 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,239 Speaker 1: a new economics, feminist economics, which will be focusing on 397 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: this human provisioning that I mentioned earlier. And you know, 398 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: it's got a great award winning journal. It publishes tons 399 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: of articles in there about this new approach. But the 400 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: field itself is not very open to new approaches. The 401 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: way the field is organized, you have to start your 402 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 1: own five oh one c. Three. You have to have 403 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: three members for at least three years before you can 404 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: even apply to get session space at what they call 405 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: the Allied Social Science Association meetings, the annual meetings that 406 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,199 Speaker 1: were just held in Philadelphia, but they're really run by 407 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: the American Economics Association, So the a A is definitely 408 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: involved in fence keeping, keeping out marginal ideas, keeping out 409 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 1: marginal people. Do you know, is there any one question 410 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 1: that you wanted to ask Heidi before we wrap up? Yeah? Hi? 411 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 1: Do you one question that I think is really pergnant 412 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: and something I wasn't really able to get at in 413 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: my story too much? Is obviously what we're talking about 414 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: now is sort of the way that sexism and and 415 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: sort of settle sexism and overt sexism play into academic economics. 416 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: Is it a different story for Wall Street economists? Do 417 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: you think? You know? Do you hear different stories when 418 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: you talk to women in the two groups? Well, I 419 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: have talked to the Bond women for example, on Wall 420 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: Street and and other groups, and I get the same 421 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: sense that they want to band together to identify themselves 422 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: as women economists to get a little bit more clout. 423 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: One of the things that goes on at Columbia University 424 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: is a sort of economic journalists forum where they typically 425 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 1: invite prominent male economists and have female economic journalists asked 426 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: the questions because they want to give more prominence to 427 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: the economic journal was sor female. So there's still a 428 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: need to bolster women in those areas, but I don't 429 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: know that it's quite as aggressive as it is in 430 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: in academia. I'm speaking now particularly of economists. I mean, 431 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: obviously the traders on the floor quite aggressive, and we 432 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: don't see too many women there. I know we said 433 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: that would be the last question, but I think we're 434 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: tapping a pretty deep vein here. Much of the conversation 435 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: has oriented around the United States, and this is a 436 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: show about the global economy. Are the problems observed here 437 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: replicated abroad? Are we doing relatively better or relatively worse 438 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 1: in the US? GENA? Do you want to take a 439 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 1: crack at that one? That one's a little bit beyond 440 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 1: the scope of my reporting. To be perfectly honest with you, 441 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: I've heard anecdotes that suggests relatively better, but they're purely anecdote, 442 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: and I don't have any sort of empirical evidence of that. Now, 443 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: you did work in Frankfort for a while helping cover 444 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: the German economy and the European Central Bank. Some thoughts 445 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: based on that experience. Well, you know, it's interesting because 446 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: I was in Frankfurt in and really this conversation hadn't 447 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: even started to the degree that it has now. You know, 448 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: I think that this really and Heidi can kind of 449 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: speak to this. Obviously, there's been this focus on making 450 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: economics a more diverse field for years, but I think that, 451 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: at least as someone covering the field, I hadn't heard 452 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: a lot about sexism and economics in this sort of 453 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: overt way. You know, like Hidi said, people knew economic 454 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: job market rumors existed, but not until this summer. Do 455 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: I think there was really this reckoning where we said, 456 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: you know, this is really sort of toxic and this 457 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: probably is hurting women in the field. I don't think 458 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,919 Speaker 1: that conversation was happening yet. Then, how do any perspectives, Well, 459 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 1: I think that's right. Germany is a special case. I 460 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: am of a German background, I have many German relatives. 461 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: I go over every couple of years. It's a relatively 462 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: patriarchal society. I think it's safe to say. In England 463 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: was certainly sortle more commentary about testosterone and men being 464 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: responsible for some of the international financial crises, big moments 465 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,199 Speaker 1: in that crisis, the most recent crisis, So we do 466 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: see some more open discussion. I think elsewhere we have 467 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: a much better focus on getting more women on boards 468 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: in the other European countries, not only England, but also 469 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: Scandinavia and I think Germany as well and France. So 470 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 1: there's been national legislation or national goals in those states. 471 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 1: We don't have that yet in the United States for corporations, 472 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: even though you know they're publicly chartered institutions. So we 473 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: do have further ago in the United States. And I 474 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 1: think it's safe to say that economics is dominated by 475 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: American economists worldwide. All right, well, we'll have to leave 476 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: it there. This has been a really interesting conversation and 477 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: definitely an issue that is not going to go away 478 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: anytime soon. Heidi Hartman and Gina smile like, thanks so 479 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: much for being with us today. My pleasure. Yeah, thank you. 480 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 1: Benchmark will be back next week. Until then, you can 481 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: find us on the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot Com, our 482 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: Bloomberg app, as well as wherever you enjoy podcasts, including 483 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, Overcast, and Stitcher. While you're there, take a 484 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: minute to rate and review the show so more listeners 485 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: can find us and let us know what you thought 486 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 1: of the show. You can follow me on Twitter at 487 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: at scott Landman. Dan, you're at moss Under School decade Pidy, 488 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 1: is there a Twitter handle you wanted to give? My 489 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: Twitter feed is at Heidi at i w PR. That's 490 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: the at sign H g I D I A T 491 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: i w PR. And Gina. You are at at Gina 492 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: Smiley Benchmark is produced by tofor Foreheads. The head of 493 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Podcast is Francesca lev Thanks for listening. To see 494 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: you next time.