1 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: In Atlanta. Another body was coming today at police Task 2 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: Dors headquarters. There are twenty seven faces on the wall, murdered, 3 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: one missing. We do not know the person or persons 4 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: that are responsible. Therefore, we do not have the mode 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: from Tenderfoot TV and How Stuff Works in Atlanta. Like 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: eleven other recent victims in Atlanta, Rogers apparently was as 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: fixy victor Atlanta. It was unlikely to catch the killer 8 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: unless he keeps on killing. This is Atlanta Monster. Hey, guys, 9 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 1: thanks for tuning into our first Q and A episode. 10 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 1: I'm Payne Lindsay. I'm here with the Tenderfoot team and 11 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: the House Stuff Works team. Hey, it's Jason here with 12 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works Merit from Tenderfoot, and this is Donald 13 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: from Tenderfoot. And today we're gonna be going through some 14 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: of the voicemail questions. To start this off, we received 15 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: an overwhelming amount of listener voicemails ranging from all types 16 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 1: of questions, and today we've picked some of the best 17 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: ones and we'll be going through them individually and giving 18 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 1: the best answers we can. Hi, my name is Jimal Anthony. 19 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: Why this story? What made you guys? Decided this was 20 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: the story to tell it's a very unique story, but 21 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: it's very um complex and it seems to be ever changing, 22 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: you know, so many moving parts to it. So what 23 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: made you guys decide to pick the Atlanta child murders. 24 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: That's a good question. Um really, Donald all right, my 25 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: business partner here at tender Foot TV, he brought this 26 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: story to me. At first, I'd never heard of the 27 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: Atlantia Old murders. Donald, what inspired you to bring this 28 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: up in the first place? Initially, I know we wanted 29 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:51,919 Speaker 1: to do something different, Um first podcast up and vantashed. 30 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: You know, we're planning on doing a season two of it, 31 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: but I know we wanted to do something other than 32 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: a missing person's case. And um, just thinking back on 33 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: my childhood, the Atlanta childmars was something I remember growing up. Um, 34 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: it affected me, and I think some of our other 35 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: listeners that are either forty and up and from the 36 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: black community especially remember hearing about this. And I was 37 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: away in California, UM, but it still affected me. You know, 38 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: I heard about it from my parents, from my uncle's 39 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: and it was something that just I felt like I 40 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: needed to ask you if if you had ever heard 41 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 1: of it before? And when I did, and you hadn't 42 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: you hadn't heard of it. I was like, how many 43 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 1: other people out there, you know, just don't know about 44 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: this tragic story. So I figured, look, if we can 45 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: bring this story, uh some more attention, maybe some justice 46 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: or some at least at the very least some awareness 47 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: and the closure for those families, then I think I'd 48 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: be worth this. You and shot yeah. And I did 49 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: some initial research after you told me about it to 50 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: see if this would be a good podcast, and I 51 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: realized very quickly how important this story was um to 52 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: the nation, especially just the city of Atlanta. Um all 53 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: the racial bifurcations in the story, the way it's sort 54 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 1: of shaped this city, and kind of it's had this 55 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: sort of dark cloud over Atlanta for a long time, 56 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: and it's something that was sort of swept under the rug. 57 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: And the more you dig into it, the more you 58 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: learn that just isn't readily available out there, right, And 59 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: I think also, I mean I learned a lot, you know, 60 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: I thought I knew about this case, and I think 61 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: a lot of people think that they know about this 62 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: case until you actually do the research listen to the podcast, 63 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: so you know the things that I thought, you know, 64 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: some of those, um were rumors, and and you know 65 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: those were dispelled by doing the research. So I got 66 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: a lot from it. But I think the interesting thing 67 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 1: also is that, you know, we sat down with Jason 68 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: from How Stuff Works, Uh, and you also, Jason had 69 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: had this idea to do this podcast, so it kind 70 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: of seemed like a perfect match and that's why we 71 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: ended up doing it together. So yeah, But when I 72 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: met you, Jason, I had just talked to Donald about 73 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: the Atlanta child murders case, and we met for the 74 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: first time in your office, and you brought up the 75 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: Atlanta child murders and I said, I'm not kidding my 76 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: business partner, Donald just mentioned this to me, and I 77 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: was gonna write there in between you guys, what was 78 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: your take on doing this as a podcast? You know, 79 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: for me, I was what nine or ten years old 80 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: at the time, and that image of the case, even 81 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: living far away in Wisconsin, was burned in my brain. 82 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: And I think what Donald said is right where, um, 83 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: something's actually surprised us here. So um the reactions from 84 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: folks who lived during that time and remembered it but 85 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: actually didn't quite remember everything. These things tend to be 86 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: urban legends the longer they get drawn out, and the 87 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: stories tend to change over time, and um, you know, 88 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: even if you listen to the podcast, you'll be like, 89 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: it sounds like even folks at the FBI don't quite 90 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: remember everything thirty or forty years later, and so there's 91 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: a certain mythology that that builds over time. Uh. The 92 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: second thing that, um, I think most shocked me, and 93 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: I think pain you probably feel this way too, is 94 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 1: how many people had no idea that this was actually 95 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: a story that happened, that this many African American children 96 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: were missing in murdered, and that this happened in a 97 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: major metropolitan city like Atlanta. The other why is that 98 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: it's been forty years, and part of this is what's 99 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: the same and what's different about this country in this 100 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: city actually, And we're talking about race, we're talking about economics, 101 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: we're talking about politics, we're talking about police and justice, 102 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: and it's pretty stunning to see certainly some things have changed, 103 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: but a lot fuels the same after forty years. Yeah. 104 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: I think I've said this before, UM, speaking about the podcast, 105 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: is that you know, there's a difference between progress and change, 106 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: and a lot has changed, but we haven't progressed as 107 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: much as a nation as we'd like to think. And 108 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 1: I think that's one lesson I want to take away 109 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: you can have from listening to this podcast. To add 110 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: to that the why now it's been forty years, Like 111 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: you're saying, a lot of these players in this case 112 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: are getting really old now, whether some of them are 113 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: not even around. So I mean, in ten years, I 114 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: don't think you could do this podcast, if you know. 115 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: And just kind of brings up another side note, which 116 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 1: is what was our goal on the podcast. So it 117 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: was an investigation and we wanted to get to the 118 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: root of the stories. But at think we discussed early on, um, 119 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: we wanted people to make up their own minds and 120 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: and here everything, even the wild crazy stuff, and make 121 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: up their own minds and then looking themselves and be like, 122 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: why did I think that way? What's causing me to 123 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: think that way? Is it based on things I've held 124 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: onto for years? Or is it because I really feel 125 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: compelled one way or another that the evidence is swaying me. Yeah, 126 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: I promise as a listener, whatever you were feeling, I 127 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: was feeling the exact same thing at some point. This 128 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: is so confusing, This is puzzling, Why why is this 129 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: like this? Do I believe this? Do I not believe this? 130 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: Those are things that people have thought for almost forty 131 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: years now. It's nothing new in this case. Everyone associated 132 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: with this has kind of a different perspective um based 133 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: on age, based on race, and like Pain being thirty, 134 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 1: you know, you weren't even born when this happened. You know, 135 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: Meredith's on our team even younger. Jason and I were 136 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: young and you heard about this growing up. But just 137 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: you too, you know, Meredith and Pain, you guys are 138 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: the generation of pot cast listeners that you know, really 139 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: don't know about the story. So just hearing about it 140 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: and learning about it in the way that you did, 141 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: you can probably relate a little bit more to the 142 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: listener um that's hearing about it firsthand from the podcast. Right. 143 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: So I didn't grow up with the story obviously like 144 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: either of you did. But I think it's interesting in 145 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: my perspective to still see um parallels between this story 146 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: now and what's happening today in and social issues we're 147 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: facing now, and how like you're suggesting, Donald, there might 148 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: not have been as much progress as we like to 149 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: think that we have, and these issues that are there, 150 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: some of them are still here in two thousand eighteen, 151 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: and I think that it's interesting to see that from 152 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: my perspective and coming across the story brand new right now. Hey, paying, 153 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: this is Wendy from North Atlanta. So my question is, 154 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: so the bridge that supposedly Wayne Williams through the body 155 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: off of I was wondering why it took so long 156 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: for them to recover that body. Don't bodies float when 157 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: they're first thrown in the water and then they sink later. Therefore, 158 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: they would be able to recover that body that night, 159 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: as opposed to waiting three days and then not being 160 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: able to connect it to Wayne Williams throwing the body in. 161 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: That's a good question. I am, by no means an 162 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: expert on uh the human body in that sense, but 163 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: from what I know, a dead body does not flow 164 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: up until the gases inside from the decomposition make it 165 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: rise to the surface. So let's assume that it was 166 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: Nathan Okator's body that was tossed off the bridge, and 167 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: he had died just a few hours earlier. Within that timeframe, 168 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: he likely would sink and then rise to the top later, 169 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: the FBI told us and Also, it's in the FBI 170 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: reports all the documents that they did go search for 171 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:03,199 Speaker 1: a body that night with boats and with helicopters and 172 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: all kind of stuff, but they found nothing. So Yeah, 173 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: and that's not I've been fishing on the Chattahoochee many 174 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: times and it's it's very cold, very cold water, and 175 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: it's a little bit tricky to navigate. It's not the 176 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: widest river in the world. There's lots of overhanging trees, 177 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: and if you were to do that at night, it's 178 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,079 Speaker 1: not the easiest thing to kind of find a clear 179 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: pathway and just a body be there. Um. And so 180 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: I just knowing that environment, I know it is a 181 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,599 Speaker 1: little bit tricky, and I'm sort of not surprised it 182 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: took him maybe an extra day or two to to 183 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: find the body. Yeah. I think another thing is the current. 184 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: It's been suggested to us that the current was really strong. 185 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: It's also been suggested to us that the current was 186 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: relatively calm. So depending on who we talked to, we 187 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: get mixed information. We got mixed information about that, and 188 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: I think, um, regardless, there was a lot of time 189 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: between when they heard a splash Wayne was pulled over. 190 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: They talked to Wayne the assembled people to go out 191 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: and start investigating the splash. That was in the early 192 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: early morning hours of that night and or of that day. 193 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: And I think it probably took a long time before 194 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 1: anything was set in motion, so that could account for 195 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 1: some you know, missing time, or where Nathaniel Kator's body, 196 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: if it was indeed dumped that night, where it would 197 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: have been in relation to actually first hearing the splash. 198 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: But the focus was on Wayne almost immediately you have 199 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: this the splash, this uh suspicious character on the bridge. 200 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: It's late at night, so all the police officers the 201 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 1: FBI are there focused on Way Williams. They're also trying 202 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: to look for a body that one recruit claimed he 203 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: heard hit the water. So it's late, it's dark, and 204 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: I think that um even Macomis made a comment to 205 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: us offhand, the FBI agent that they didn't even launch 206 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: a full investigation that night in the water because the 207 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: current was strong and it was not safe to do. Yeah, 208 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: and if you think about it, they didn't even really 209 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: know for sure what they're looking for. They didn't know 210 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: Nathaniel Kator was missing at this point. It wasn't that 211 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: they were looking for someone in particular, They just here's 212 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: a kind of fishy situation, let's look into it. So 213 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: I think that definitely is a good point to bring up. 214 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: That mcomis they didn't know what they're looking for. They 215 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: didn't even launch an official investigation yet. I think FBI 216 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: also mentioned that the recruit under the bridge could have 217 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: been as much as fifty yards away from uh where, 218 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: directly where the body may have hit the water. So 219 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: if he's you know, under the bridge, fifty yards away 220 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: and that he hears a splash, he still used to 221 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: you know, walk over there and then shine his light 222 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: on the water. And by that time, I mean, even 223 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: the body has hit the water and initially come up 224 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: before it sinks again and the current takes it away. 225 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: I mean you're looking at at least a couple of 226 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: minutes of someone walking and then looking around. The body 227 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: can definitely have disappeared by that time. So you know, 228 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: there's a lot of variables. I think, um, there's no 229 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: definitive answer to really, they should have found it as 230 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: soon as it hit the water or three days later. Hi, 231 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: my name is Julian. I just finished listening to your podcast. 232 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: So if Wayne used to drive around the blue car 233 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 1: with like the police scanner, pretend to be a police 234 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: officer or be the reporter and get all the information 235 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: on the cops. How did he not know that the 236 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: cops were at the stakeout and then like, you know, 237 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: not and then the boy being caught regardless, It just 238 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 1: there's just seems to be I'm just kind of confused 239 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: about that. Well, according to Wayne Williams himself, he did 240 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: know about this. He told me it was an episode 241 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: ten in one of my last phone calls with him, 242 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: that he knew about the bridge steakouts. Was he telling 243 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: the truth? I don't know, But according to Wayne in 244 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen, he did know about the bridge steakouts, 245 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: and he did have a car that was like a 246 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: police car with a police scanner, so he had the 247 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: know how and the ability to hear a police scanner 248 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: and possibly find out about bridge steakouts. I don't know 249 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: if that helps or hurts his story, but that's what 250 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: he told me. That's the only time I've ever heard 251 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: him say of that. Do you think he was like 252 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: that that was just another turn in the story at 253 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: the end, because I don't think he even had the 254 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: police scanner in the white station wagon. I think it 255 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: was in some of the other vehicles. I just I 256 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: have a tough time believing that he knew, and if 257 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: he knew, why would he do it? Anyway? I think 258 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: Wayne tends to say things and shape things as he's 259 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: talking to people, UM, and he shapes the stories in 260 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: a way that fits whoever he's talking to and whatever 261 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: he's trying to get across. UM. I think in that moment, 262 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: he felt compelled to tell me that, you know, all 263 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 1: this is ridiculous because he knew about these steakouts when 264 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: you know. I don't know why he didn't say that 265 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: in his trial. I think it's a good point that 266 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: he didn't necessarily have the police scanner with him in 267 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: that car. I'm not sure if that was something. He 268 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: moved around to different cars, and he moved drowned plenty 269 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: of cars, as we know, But he did know enough 270 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: about what was going on. This is me talking assuming 271 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: that Wayne did this, But he did know enough about 272 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: what was going on to change the place of dumping 273 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: to the rivers. So I don't think it was out 274 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: of the question to think that he knew they would 275 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: be looking at rivers by this point. It wasn't like 276 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: this was the first body that was that had shown 277 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: up in a river. Yeah. Bottom line is kids were 278 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: turning up dead in the Chattahoochee River. That was in 279 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: the Atlanternal Constitution, that was in articles, it was in 280 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: the news. That was a known fact in Atlanta at 281 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: that time. And then mainly adults at the end showing 282 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: up further and further outside the Atlanta city boundaries in rivers. Again, 283 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: as Um Popcorn says, because he heard the fibers were important, 284 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: so he was stripping the clothes off of them. Um, 285 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: I'm actually really surprised that the law enforcement was able 286 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: to keep their steak outs a secret from the media. 287 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 1: I don't know if there was an agreement with the 288 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: media to keep it quiet, but for all the stuff 289 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: that happened to be able to essentially cover every one 290 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: of these bridges out in the country for thirty days 291 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: and no one knows about it, I'm still surprised that 292 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: that didn't get out. I thought it was suggested to 293 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: us once that maybe people didn't know exactly what was 294 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: going on and where, but that they knew that police 295 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: were steaking out new locations. Even Captain Dave Captain Dave 296 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: said off hand in our interview that he recalls on 297 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: the police skinner they were using code words. I don't 298 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: remember what the word was, but it was something. It 299 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: was some street name that he had never heard of 300 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: in Atlanta. He said, where is this street? Where is 301 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: this turns out it was a code word for the 302 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: bridge steak out and he found this out during that 303 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: time period. So way Williams having the same access that 304 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: this guy has, And you know, it's plausible that Wayne 305 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: would know about the bridge steak out. The question is 306 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: then if he did, like Wayne saying, if he did 307 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: know about the bridge steake out, then why does he 308 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: go into the bridge at three in the morning. Yeah, 309 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: it's it's surprising, but it is conceivable. And I think 310 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: it's important that to remember that when he was pulled over, 311 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: at least to us, he suggested that when um, he 312 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: was questioned, he said, is this about the kids? Even 313 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: if he's claiming his innocence, he knew that he was 314 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: being pulled over in association with you know, the kids 315 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: being missing and turned up murdered. So also, I think 316 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: he could have known about the bridge steakouts, and um, 317 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: that's not going to deter if it, you know, if 318 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: he's the one who is guilty of it's not going 319 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: to deter that person from dumping them in the water. 320 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: That was he believed at the time that it was, 321 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: you know, getting rid of evidence. So you know, the 322 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: killer has to know. It's just common sense if I'm 323 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: dumping bodies and rivers, there's if there is a steak 324 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: out there probably looking at rivers and you know where 325 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: these bodies are being found. Um. And also they say 326 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: he was aware of the steakouts, doesn't mean he knew 327 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: exactly which bridges, exactly which times when the bridge steakhouts 328 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: were ending, and that that was the actual last night. 329 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: So also a lot a lot of variables when it 330 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: comes to that take out. Yeah, I was gonna say, 331 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: just while we're on the topic of the bridge again 332 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: over over and over again, we were out at the 333 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: bridge and they have a kind of an extra fence 334 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: on top, now one of those kind of curved rails 335 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: that prevent people from jumping off into the into the river. 336 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: And so we had to use a lift in order 337 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: to get Randy over the top and drop him. But 338 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: this kind of question of how could how could anyone 339 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: Wayne's size pick up a body and throw them in 340 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: the river. Well, if you look at the original um 341 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: bridge structure and some of the photographs, that structure is 342 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: actually not that tall. It's less tall than um than 343 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 1: a height of a normal car, and it is solid concrete. 344 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: So the ability again I'm getting a little bit graphic here, 345 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: but to pick up a body, even force it against 346 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: that concrete structure and push it over. To me, that 347 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,719 Speaker 1: doesn't seem very difficult, even if um those bodies were 348 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: a lot heavier than the victims who bodies were pushed over. Yeah, 349 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: I mean it's absolutely doable. I mean if if you 350 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: you try to live Randy. Yeah, if you take the Randy, 351 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: it his height and weight compared to Nathaniel Katy, which 352 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: is you know, it's been some back and forth about 353 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 1: exact height and weight, but it's it's all very similar 354 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: to what we were dealing with. And um, you know, 355 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: my height and weight and not much different than way 356 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: Williams at that time. And I was able to take 357 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: the dummy um from about the middle of the bridge, 358 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,440 Speaker 1: drag you know, put my arms underneath the dummies arms 359 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,479 Speaker 1: and drag it up the curb over to the bridge 360 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: and lifted at least to my chest height and to 361 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: be able to put it over what would have been 362 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: the barrier At that time. It wasn't a scientific test 363 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: being done by us. It was you know, what do 364 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: we believe? Like? What did I just hear? Like? The 365 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: best way to test this is to do it yourself 366 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: and see if there's anything there. We put ears where 367 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: the recruit heard this splash, so you, as a listener, 368 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: got to hear what it could sound like. It wasn't 369 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: altered it. We literally bought these uh microphone ears to emulate, uh, 370 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: the way people hear things. And so that's the closest 371 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: we could possibly get. Scenario again. Why did they rent 372 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: so many cars during that period? I mean the mom 373 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,120 Speaker 1: shicked the father. I didn't know you know what I'm 374 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: talking about. I wonder why they rented so many stations 375 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: wide into whatever? Why by they did rent a lot 376 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: of cars, And we asked me about that. According to 377 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:38,239 Speaker 1: Wayne and to Larry Peterson too, who's the fiber analyst um, 378 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: the Williams family was having trouble with a newly purchased 379 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,479 Speaker 1: LTG during this time period and it was in and 380 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: out of the shop. So all of the rental cars 381 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: they got were associated with that. I don't I don't 382 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: know if it was directly suggested that it was from 383 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: the car shop that they were going to that was 384 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 1: giving them these rentals, but it was because they had 385 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: a new car that was having trouble. Um, it sounds 386 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: convenient that they had all these rental cars, not planned necessarily, 387 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,479 Speaker 1: you know, looking at the list by check Donlinger, there 388 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: was even he talks about the confusion around the cars 389 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 1: and and what goes where and when, and I had 390 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: trouble following it. Frankly, this is something I found that 391 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: was interesting to me. Um, not just because of the cars, 392 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: but they had pulled over another individual and their car. 393 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: It was actually a tag associated with Wayne Williams Um 394 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: associated to Metro News Productions on eighteen seventeen Penelope Road, 395 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: which is Wayne and his family's address. So they actually 396 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: went to visit Wayne in January. It's the first time 397 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: he was talked to as part of the investigation, and 398 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 1: well in advance of him being questioned and arrested later 399 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: that summer. So whether they knew it or not, they 400 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 1: had are actually already talked to Wayne because of an 401 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: association with one of his cars. Well, we talked to Corn, 402 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: the FBI agent. He told Meredith and Knight that there 403 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: was this list of about three thousand people that the 404 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: FBI had created and Wayne Williams was on that list. 405 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: So he said that no matter what, eventually they were 406 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: going to find Wayne because there was this list of 407 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: individuals that fit a profile that they had built in. 408 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: Wayne's name was Lomahold on that list. Hi, Payne, my 409 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: name is Deel London. I'm calling from Campton, Georgia. Is 410 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: it possible that Cheryl Johnson was like a frame by 411 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: the g d I or the FBI, Like could they 412 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: have called and left the incorrect name and number in 413 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: hopes that he would go out and end up on 414 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: that bridge so that they could arrest him or Am 415 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: I really far fetched in that? I think that's a 416 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: little far fetched. I don't believe in these huge elaborate 417 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: conspiracies to pin all this on Wayne Williams. What's the 418 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: point If it was thought out that much, then they 419 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: would have more evidence on Wayne Williams. First of all. 420 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: And if that's also the case, why is it Wayne 421 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: saying that the FBI with plants and stuff like that. 422 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: It just doesn't make any sense. I mean it's they 423 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: didn't say, did Sheryl Johnson come to my house right now? 424 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: He decided when he wanted to go to her house. 425 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: You know, he could have went after the first call, 426 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: after the second call, before he went to the club, 427 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: or after the club, so he could have win a 428 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: completely different direction. Could have been coming from North Atlanta 429 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: or from East Atlanta. You never know where he's coming 430 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 1: from when he decides to go to Sheryl Johnson's house. 431 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it's kind of far fetched. And 432 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: I also don't believe in like the larger conspiracy theories 433 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: that involve you know, a ton of players that are 434 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: out to get Wayne Williams. There's just not enough. There's 435 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: not an evidence to support that. And like you said, 436 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: paying if they were framing him there will be would 437 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: be a much better frame job than this. I think 438 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: it's important that Wayne doesn't suggest it was ever that um, 439 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: regardless of Sheryl Johnson is real or not, he like 440 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 1: always stays true to that it was a print call 441 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: about someone who knew using the music business, and he 442 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: always says true to the conspiracy only started after I 443 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: was stopped on the bridge, So it doesn't even you know, 444 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: matter if CHERRYL. Johnson is real or not. I think 445 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: Wayne Williams knows no matter what, that it's a bad alibi. Yeah, 446 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: there's there's just no way that it's a setup. If 447 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: it was, then they messed up and a body was 448 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,239 Speaker 1: tossed over the bridge as a result. Like if if 449 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: they were really trying to set him up, they would 450 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: have been waiting at the top of the bridge. And 451 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 1: it just seems very far fetched. The two in the 452 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: morning thing. If he's a suspect, you knock on history 453 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: and take him downtown and you questioned him with all 454 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: the stuff you've got on him, you do not do 455 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: an elaborate you know, bridge stake out to trap the 456 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: killer if you will, and to not see someone dropped 457 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: the body off the bridge. If my point was to 458 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: catch the killer, then they would have caught the killer 459 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: right then and there. But they didn't. And if it's 460 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: all made up, I'm gonna makeup a better story. The 461 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: guy unto the bridge, You say, oh, I saw Wayne 462 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 1: Williams throw that body over, Like why so you know, 463 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: why did it such a shaky story If it's a 464 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 1: set up, If you're luring a killer and You're expecting 465 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: them to drop a body off a bridge and and 466 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: no one sees it. That just doesn't make any sense. 467 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: I mean, how many different versions of that story do 468 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: we here? Hi, my name is Meg, and I thought 469 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: that I heard earlier in the podcast that some of 470 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: the victims had been sodomized, and so I was just 471 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 1: curious there was ever d N a collection that would 472 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: have correlated with Wayne Williams, or if there was even 473 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: the ability to gather DNA compare it, since that's not 474 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: necessarily was on trial for So it's just one piece 475 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: that was curious about. I think it's firstly important to 476 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: talk about the suggested sexual abuse. Apparently from everyone we 477 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: talked to during our own investigation of this, there was 478 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: no evidence of sexual abuse. It was serialized that sex 479 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: was a motive and it's possible, but we couldn't find 480 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: any records of rape kits. No one from the FBI 481 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: or the a p D ever suggested that there's any 482 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: sexual abuse. So I think firstly that's an important distinction. 483 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: We've thought a lot about the DNA connection because that 484 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: you know, DNA testing wasn't even a thing. It really 485 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: came to late around UM and the suggestion to be 486 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: able to kind of go back and see what happens. 487 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: I've asked that question. We'll probably play a clip from 488 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: Maurice Godwin who came on the show and talked a 489 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 1: little bit about this. Carpet fibers is not direct evidends. 490 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: Carpet fibers, you've got to have something else to support 491 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: it to make it stronger. DNA is direct evidence. You 492 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 1: don't need anything else to support DNA and fingerprints. Carpet 493 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: fibers that was in the vehicle for forty years could 494 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: still hold DNA that could produce a profile. The problem 495 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: is what type of environment the car had been in. 496 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: Heat destroys the DNA. Time destroys the DNA. Now, a 497 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,880 Speaker 1: case that I worked in O eight to oh ten 498 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 1: happened in five. It was a woman and her two 499 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: children brutally murdered in their house, and I worked for 500 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: the defense from O eight oh ten and they used 501 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: a vaginal squaff from her from not teen eighty five 502 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 1: that was just kept in an old cardboard box and 503 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: they matched it to him in oh six. From back 504 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: then you only could use blood. The original blood analysis 505 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: they cut and say was he as or not? But 506 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: they said the DNA was and so they they recharged 507 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: him in No. Six and and court martialed him in 508 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: O ten and found him guilty. He's on death row. Now. 509 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 1: Everything that was collected by the FBI and the g 510 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: PI and law enforcement for the Willy Williams casse, where 511 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: is it. Well, they have the right to destroy the 512 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: evidence after the trial. Do you think that they did 513 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: in this case. I don't think so. I think it's 514 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: in probably aces, is probably into sureff an X, is 515 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: probably some boxes down and who knows where in the 516 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: police department. It's probably in all kinds of locations. And 517 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: I very seriously doubt that they transferred the information and 518 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: the evidence and everything when computer technology came along, very 519 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: seriously doubt they transferred that to a spreadsheet. So the 520 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: problem is you would have to put somebody down there 521 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: to physically crawl on the floor and look and everything 522 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: to find two things. You might find some things, but 523 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: I would not be surprised at all if it's not 524 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 1: into the trash dumb victims clothing with blood. Do you 525 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: think they held under that? Well, Um, you've got two 526 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,360 Speaker 1: convictions and the rest of them have been um exceptionally cleared, 527 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: it's what it's called. Uh, they probably don't. And and 528 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: then frankly, you could go deeper and say, um, you know, 529 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: DNA evidence matching is not what it used to be. 530 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: It was originally you know, positioned as how do we 531 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 1: take the wrongly accused and find something that exonerates them, 532 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: and it's turned into how do we get a guilty 533 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: play out of someone based on this DNA to also 534 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,239 Speaker 1: going even further in saying, um, it's actually swaying some 535 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: of the jurors, they've said, because if I see DNA 536 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: testing put in front of me, I tend to believe 537 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: that that is the truth. And so even d N 538 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: a kind of being considered, this, this bullet proof evidence 539 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: actually has a lot of biases in here and is 540 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: problematic in these days. Um So even if we opened 541 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: it up, even if the samples were clean, there's some 542 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: problems there. Hi, my name is Kim, and my question 543 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: after listening to the POECAST is about the evidence collected. 544 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: I'm assuming it's just sitting in an evidence flucker or 545 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: in storage or something, and I'm just wondering why they 546 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: can't now use modern DNA testing to either clear or 547 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: condemn Wayne if there's so many questions about his innocence 548 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: or his guilt. A couple of points here. In two 549 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: thousand and ten, there was a case update that actually 550 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: said in looking at DNA findings between Way Williams and 551 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: Patrick Baltazar, it would have actually strengthened the case against 552 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: Wayne Williams, not for him. The other thing to consider 553 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: in looking at again we talked about these flawed techniques. 554 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: Think about it this way. Even if you were to 555 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,959 Speaker 1: match some of the DNA from the hairs that was 556 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,479 Speaker 1: that was a part of the case, But the fiber 557 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: matching was such a stronger case for the state against Wayne, 558 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: and he has less of a defense against that. So 559 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: I think you answer one question, you end up opening 560 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: up a bunch of others. I just I still think 561 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: it's problematic. I think the lack of DNA evidence in 562 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: this case is what's allowed it to be so confusing 563 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: over the years. Usually it's in a murder case in 564 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen, when there's DNA you can usually rule 565 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: someone in or out as to be at the crime 566 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: scene or anything like that. That wasn't really done here. 567 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: The closest thing we had to it was these blood 568 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: samples in the back of one of way William's cars. 569 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: And what's interesting is I actually asked way Williams about 570 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: those blood samples. It didn't make it into the final episode, 571 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: but I want to play that clip for you guys here. 572 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: This is his answer. My understanding is what they claimed 573 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: to have found in the car were two dry scrapings 574 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: of blood that were determined to be human blood. And 575 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: these scrapers were supposed to come from the Barrick case 576 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: and the John Porter case, and they presented evidence and 577 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: trial about supposing enzyme tiste and matching their blood type 578 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: or something like that book book. An issue is according 579 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: to the Decab County medicalistam and the report in the 580 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: case of William Bart he was apparently staffed post mortem 581 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: or near at the time of depth or whatever. But 582 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: in any case, the medical examiner was embedic and that 583 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: there was no external bleeding on him. How can you 584 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: have a case where somebody did not bleed externally, but 585 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: Jet you said you found a blood scraper from that 586 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: person that done that? I remember the thing or John Porter. 587 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: He was originally not even included on the task for Smiths. 588 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 1: He was hold on to give the notes here okay, 589 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: he was found in the open and a makeup lot 590 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: and for multiple staff wounds, and this probably was a 591 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: street crime, so it was it was just an attempt 592 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: to link two cases in a pattern that basically never existed. 593 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: When we were partitioning the court for DNA testing back 594 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: into two thousand and nine, one of the issues we 595 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: raised was to have those blood sapples tested at the 596 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 1: State Crime Lab. And my attorney's team go to the 597 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: State Crime Lab to to get the two slides samples 598 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: of the scrapements to send off to the lab. They 599 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: have a tested, but when they went back the next 600 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: day to oversee the package that the packing of the 601 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: blood slides sapples, the samples were lost. Not only were 602 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: they lost, but they also lost the caust seat that 603 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: they claimed that these samples came from. My point is this, 604 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: You've got the samples the day before, but yet all 605 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: of a sudden overnight you lose them. When you find out, 606 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: you know, in the process of doing DNA tested, you 607 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: know that raises a real flag with anybody. I have 608 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: a somewhat related question that I've never been able to 609 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: get my um head around, and that's the lack of 610 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: fingerprint evidence that came up a couple of times, especially 611 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: with Wayne. I don't know the answer to that either. 612 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 1: Do you guys have any thoughts there. It's certainly odd 613 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: that there's no fingerprints of any of the victims inside 614 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: way William's home, if that's where they're theorizing that he 615 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,239 Speaker 1: killed some of these kids. Um, I don't know if 616 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: that's because they didn't dust the entire place. I do 617 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: know that when Larry Peterson told us about the night 618 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: that he went to the house to get the carpet samples, 619 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: he told us exactly what he was looking for. He 620 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: was not looking for fingerprints. He was looking for a 621 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: match on the carpet it. So he saw the green carpet, 622 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: took the sample, he saw the purple material, took that sample. 623 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: He knew what he was looking for. He came back 624 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: that night and it was a match. So I don't 625 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: know if the focus was just not on fingerprints or 626 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: what it was, but there weren't any. So I think 627 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: one thing to consider is Wayne Williams had a leg 628 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: up on anyone coming to search his atmosphere. In fact, 629 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,959 Speaker 1: like people have said, there's that one strange story of 630 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: like Homer in the backyard, burning things, bringing boxes out 631 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: to the trash. I don't know how good fingerprint evidence 632 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: is or was then, but it sounds like there was 633 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: some time to cover some tracks, if there were tracks 634 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,239 Speaker 1: to be covered. Yeah, even if you weren't covering your 635 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: tracks as you were, you know, committing these murders, you 636 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: had time when once you left that bridge, you knew 637 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: that you were a suspect, and you had time to 638 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: then cover your tracks. And also, you know, we don't 639 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: know where else to look for fingerprints because there is 640 00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: no like where to seem the crime. You don't know 641 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: where these kids exactly where only disappeared. All we know 642 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: is that you know, they have evidence from the house, 643 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: evidence from the cars, and those are two places that 644 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: he was able to clean up after himself. They I 645 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: didn't come into way William's house and view a crime scene. 646 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: They just viewed a normal looking house. There was no 647 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 1: body on the ground, there was nothing to there was 648 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: nothing to definitively test for fingerprints. Sure, in theory you 649 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: could fingerprint the whole house, but I'd assume that they 650 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: just did not do that. Remember, half the media was 651 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: in his house the that when it got back from 652 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: being downtown. Yeah, it's pretty loosey goosey. There was people 653 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: in and out. It was all over the place at 654 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 1: that time. Thanks for listening to part one of our 655 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: Q and A session. Um. If you have any questions 656 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,439 Speaker 1: of your own, please call us at one eight three 657 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: three eight five six six six seven again that's one, three, 658 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: three five six six six seven and tune in next 659 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: week for port two. The blow below lay below b