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Speaker 1: On the Bedel Cast, the questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best

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Speaker 1: start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. My

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Speaker 1: name is Jamie Loftus, and we talk about the representation

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Speaker 1: of women in movies our podcast you're listening to. That's it,

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Speaker 1: This is it? Your taps? Here y are, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: here we are and here we are once again. The

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Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast takes a look at how female characters are

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Speaker 1: portrayed in famous movies, and we use the Bechdel Test

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Speaker 1: as a jumping off point for that discussion. What on

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Speaker 1: earth is that? Well, I'll tell you. It's a test

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Speaker 1: invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel. It's a media test

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Speaker 1: that requires that two female identifying characters. They have to

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Speaker 1: have names, and they have to talk to each other

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Speaker 1: for two lines of dialogue about something that is not

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Speaker 1: a man or related to a man. Wow, it sounds

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Speaker 1: like it should be easy, but a lot of movies.

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Speaker 1: The Lord of the Rings doesn't pass not one of

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Speaker 1: the ten hours of that famous movie franchise. So that's

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Speaker 1: why we're here. Yes, and we did this on the

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Speaker 1: Debs episode as well, But I wanted to dive a

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Speaker 1: little bit deeper into the origins of the Bechdel test

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Speaker 1: than we normally do because I think it's specially relevant

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Speaker 1: for this movie that we're discussing. Um. So, Jamie, as

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Speaker 1: you said, Alison Beachtel Queer Icon inadvertently created the Bechdel

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Speaker 1: Test in her book Dikes To Watch Out For, which

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Speaker 1: was published in I think some people think that she

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Speaker 1: kind of like deliberately set out to create this test.

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Speaker 1: It's it's that it was. It's usually presented as like

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Speaker 1: it was invented, as like, you know, like an academic

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Speaker 1: paper or something. Right, it was more that it appeared

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Speaker 1: in her book and then it was just like later

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Speaker 1: co opted into the test that we now use today.

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Speaker 1: And Alison Becktel credits the idea to her friend Liz

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Speaker 1: Wallace and to the writings of Virginia Woolf, specifically her

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Speaker 1: essay A Room of One's Own Um. And then the

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Speaker 1: test is sometimes referred to as the Bechdel Wallace test,

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Speaker 1: which Alison Bechtel is said to prefer so that's probably

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Speaker 1: what we should call it also, but we don't. We

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Speaker 1: simply always forget. It's simply our fault and we've funked

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Speaker 1: up and we're sorry. Yes, we're so sorry. Um. And

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Speaker 1: then in the comic Dikes to Watch Out for Uh,

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Speaker 1: there are two lesbian characters, and the context of their

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Speaker 1: conversation is that there is so little queer woman representation

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Speaker 1: in movies that the only way for them to imagine

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Speaker 1: a female character in a movie might be a lesbian

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Speaker 1: is if she is seen talking to another woman on

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Speaker 1: screen about not a man, like about something other than

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Speaker 1: a man. Right, So the context of the original comic

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Speaker 1: is like rooted in like Alison Bechdel's querness, and that

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Speaker 1: is generally erased from the conversation surrounding the Bechdel tests

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Speaker 1: of Ectel Wallace test. So the because especially for our

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Speaker 1: episode today, but also all the time, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: contacts like that is so often erased. We've even been

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Speaker 1: guilty of it at times on this show. So it

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Speaker 1: is it is definitely worth bringing up. And also just

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Speaker 1: like read Alison and Bectel's stuff and watch it. You

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Speaker 1: can watch it on a fucking Broadway. It's so it's

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Speaker 1: and it's also incredible and good. So indeed, Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: Bechtel Wallace test there, it is there, it is baby. Hey,

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Speaker 1: should we introduce our guests. Let's do it. I'm excited

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Speaker 1: for today. Me too. We have two guests today. They

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Speaker 1: are the hosts of Coming Out with Lauren and Nicole

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Speaker 1: a k a. Coming Out Pod. It's Lauren Flans and

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Speaker 1: Nicole Patient. Thank you so much for being here, Thank

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Speaker 1: you for having us. Well, guys, so we are talking

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Speaker 1: about the movie Carol. Carol, what is each of your

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Speaker 1: relationship with this movie? We should probably start with Lauren

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Speaker 1: because I think her relationship is more intimate and better. Yes, um,

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Speaker 1: I saw this movie in theaters shortly after I came out,

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Speaker 1: which is rare for me. I do not see movies

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Speaker 1: that often. But um, I have a buddy who for

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Speaker 1: years and years now every Christmas we movie hop which

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Speaker 1: guys don't do that pay for your movies, but one

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Speaker 1: day a year we will like pay for a movie

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Speaker 1: at ten am and then just see like three movies

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Speaker 1: over the course. Get a beautiful tradition. Yeah, and also

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Speaker 1: I feel like in certain I guess Carol isn't maybe

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Speaker 1: the best example of this, but like for like Disney,

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Speaker 1: for like anything owned by Disney, I'm like, I will

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Speaker 1: watch this for free. I feel entitled, exactly. And Carol

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Speaker 1: was the first movie of the day, so you paid

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Speaker 1: for that, paid for Carol. The following movie I did

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Speaker 1: not pay for it was Daddy's Home and I don't

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Speaker 1: feel badly about that. Oh god, it's actually I really

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Speaker 1: enjoyed it. I'm not gonna die. It's a great follow

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Speaker 1: up to Carol. Is like a Palette concert. It's Will

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Speaker 1: Ferrell and Mark Wahlberg and a lot of hi jinks. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll watch him at some point, inevitably we'll do a

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Speaker 1: betel Cast episode on the Daddy's Home friend. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: almost a franchise. One more and I think there's I

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Speaker 1: think there's two of them. Yeah, there's still Well, when

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Speaker 1: Daddy's Home three comes out, we'll be sure to do.

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Speaker 1: Everything's on hold, But I did. Yeah, I saw it

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Speaker 1: in theaters on Christmas with my friend um who And

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Speaker 1: I'll just tell this part quickly, but he's one of

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Speaker 1: he's a friend I've known since college. I've known him

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Speaker 1: since before I was out and we've never had. He's

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Speaker 1: one of those friends and I don't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of these. But I don't know if the call you,

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Speaker 1: if any you probably know it. But I was gonna say,

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Speaker 1: is one of those friends. Were like, I'm like, does

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Speaker 1: he know that I'm gay? Because he's not on social

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Speaker 1: media that much and we've known each other since before

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Speaker 1: then and we've never talked about it. So it was

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Speaker 1: a very weird movie to like be sitting next to

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Speaker 1: like my straight guy friend of me, like, what does

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Speaker 1: he get? Yeah, I know everybody knows I'm queer. I

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Speaker 1: don't even ask you that it would be they'd have

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Speaker 1: to be under a rock. Nicole, what's your relationship with

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Speaker 1: the movie? I actually did not see it in theaters.

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Speaker 1: I saw it via a screener afterwards. That's what I've

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Speaker 1: done the past several years, where I'm like, why would

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Speaker 1: I pay for this when I'm going to get it

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Speaker 1: in the mail? Um, And so that's what I did.

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Speaker 1: I mean, my first impression of it was just that

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Speaker 1: it was really beautiful. The color palette is awesome in

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Speaker 1: the movie, which is something I noticed again the second time. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's also shot on sixty millimeter. I want to say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it like has that grain to it. So I mean,

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Speaker 1: from like a visual standpoint, I really enjoyed it, And Okay,

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Speaker 1: if I wasn't already queer, i'd be queer for Kate Blanchet,

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Speaker 1: Like that's a great way that I love everything that

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Speaker 1: she does, and I think that she she's like maybe no,

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Speaker 1: she's my favorite actress, so she can, in my opinion,

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Speaker 1: do no wrong. Um, and she's such a presence that

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Speaker 1: it's just it's amazing. So except for when she doesn't

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Speaker 1: pass the Bechtel test in Lord of the Rings her fault.

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Speaker 1: I like to hold women accountable for movie. Definitely, she

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Speaker 1: did a polish on all the Lord of the Rings crabs.

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Speaker 1: I think that originally, okay, let's make this Candon. The

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Speaker 1: movie did pass the Bectel test quite a bit, and

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Speaker 1: Lynch went into meetings and was just like, I just

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Speaker 1: am not comfortable with women speaking to each other. So

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Speaker 1: that yeah, okay, go ahead. So so I mean I

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Speaker 1: remember loving loving her in it and just thinking it

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Speaker 1: was a really you know, beautiful film and sad and

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Speaker 1: melancholic and very reflective of that time and important that

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Speaker 1: we tell those stories and how difficult it was because

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Speaker 1: I think sometimes we're like, especially in Los Angeles, we're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, everything's fine, now you know? Um, So I

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Speaker 1: think it's an important part of queer history, those kind

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Speaker 1: of stories. But it didn't. It didn't like go to

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Speaker 1: the canon of one of my favorite queer films though,

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Speaker 1: And I didn't really know why that was until the

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Speaker 1: second time around and watching it and realizing that Rooney

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Speaker 1: Mara is about as interesting as a piece of cardboard,

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Speaker 1: so I just, yeah, we will. But in watching it

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Speaker 1: the second time, I have some issues. But it had

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Speaker 1: been funny to me because like all of my queer

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Speaker 1: female friends were obsessed with that movie, and I remember

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Speaker 1: just being like, uh, I wonder why it hasn't like

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Speaker 1: stuck with me, And now I know, you know, oh um.

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Speaker 1: I didn't see it in the theater, but I did

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Speaker 1: watch I knew that it had like a lot of

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Speaker 1: buzz around it, so I made sure to watch it

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Speaker 1: pretty soon afterward. And I similarly thought it was visually beautiful.

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Speaker 1: I think it's boring. That is the most popular opinion.

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Speaker 1: And I have reasons to back this up, which we

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Speaker 1: will get into, and it has largely to do with

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Speaker 1: the what I think is a lack of on screen

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Speaker 1: chemistry between Cate Lynchett and Rooney Mara. But yeah, we'll

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Speaker 1: get there. Um. But yeah, I only had seen it

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Speaker 1: that once before prepping for this episode, so I don't

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Speaker 1: have much of a grand history with it. But um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk more about it, Jamie, what about you.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't this was this movie came out in which

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Speaker 1: was truly before I saw movies in theaters. I so

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Speaker 1: I didn't see it when it came out. I remember

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Speaker 1: there were multiple of my aunts who told me to

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Speaker 1: go see it. My aunts like all saw it together

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Speaker 1: and they were just like, it's beautiful. You have to

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Speaker 1: see it. Like, I don't listen to my aunts. I'm

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Speaker 1: an adult. Um, my aunts loved it, but I mean,

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Speaker 1: I really, I really enjoyed it. I also, it's so

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Speaker 1: weird because we were talking in the car driving over

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Speaker 1: about it and you were like, I think it's boring.

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I really liked it. But and

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Speaker 1: then later I was like, I was asleep for like

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Speaker 1: ten minutes a couple different times, but then I would

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Speaker 1: have to like a couple But then when I rewound it,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, it's so beautiful. But I was asleep sometimes,

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Speaker 1: but it was so beautiful. Should I do the recap? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's do it. Okay, So it's the end of I

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Speaker 1: think nine. I believe. I think that's right. That's right

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Speaker 1: around the holidays, we meet Terres. That's Roney Mar's character.

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Speaker 1: She works at a department store and at work she

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Speaker 1: catches the eye of a woman who is shopping for

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Speaker 1: a gift for her daughter, because women be shopping and

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Speaker 1: women mothers. Carol and this is Carol Kate Blanchett's character.

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Speaker 1: And Carol approaches Terres. They get to talking, and then

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Speaker 1: Carol accidentally leaves her gloves behind at the department store.

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Speaker 1: Accident was like accidents I've done before, right, We've all left,

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Speaker 1: you know, earrings or something. I guided that with his

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Speaker 1: jewel pot at my house. I think Jeel modern Carol. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the update, Carol leaves her jewel time on the counter. See,

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Speaker 1: I like, but guys are not crafty enough to have

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Speaker 1: done that accidentally with an asterisk he left it is.

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Speaker 1: It's the George Costanza move though from Seinfeld. I think, oh,

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Speaker 1: far be it from me, which I assume is borrowing

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Speaker 1: from the Patricia George Costanza and Carol. That was his move.

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Speaker 1: He used to leave something and draw his apartment and

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Speaker 1: stuff that he cou But we are on a in

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Speaker 1: sant anw Carol and Carol leaves her gloves. Yes that

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Speaker 1: we see Carol at home and she has a husband,

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Speaker 1: Hard he's the guy from Friday Night Lights. Yes, truly,

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Speaker 1: and he doesn't act well enough to convince me he's

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Speaker 1: not the guy from Friday Night Lights. In this particular movie,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, it's Mr Coach. I think he does

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Speaker 1: a fine job. But anyway, so she has a husband,

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Speaker 1: She has a daughter named Rindy, who she loves so much.

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Speaker 1: She loves her daughter Rindy. They are rich important to

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Speaker 1: know that. And then there is a mention of Carol's

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Speaker 1: good friend Abby, who we will meet later on, who

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Speaker 1: Hard Hard clearly has a problem with. And then we

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Speaker 1: see a little bit of terrass life. She has a

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Speaker 1: boyfriend named Richard who wants her to go to Europe

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Speaker 1: with him. She has an interest in photography, and then

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Speaker 1: she mails the gloves back to Carol. I like that

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Speaker 1: she's a photographer. I think in the book she's not

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Speaker 1: a photographer, But then in the movie she is a

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Speaker 1: photographer because she's not like the other girls. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: have I there of you read the book? I haven't.

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Speaker 1: That's all right, yes that I have not read it.

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Speaker 1: We'll go a little bit into the history of this book,

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Speaker 1: the adaptation. I've read the Wikipedia page of the Book

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Speaker 1: of Us. We would never read a none of us, um,

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Speaker 1: but we we just did some research on the adaptation Chess.

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Speaker 1: So Carol takes Terres to lunch to say thank you

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Speaker 1: for returning the gloves. We learned that Carol is in

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Speaker 1: the middle of a divorce. And then Carol invites Derres

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Speaker 1: to her very large house. They hang out, and then

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Speaker 1: Heart comes home and he's like, who is this lady

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Speaker 1: riding night lights? He's like, Carol, you know, come with

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Speaker 1: me for Christmas. She's like, no, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: work getting a divorce. And then he's all piste off

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Speaker 1: fight the big games coming up, touchdown. And then soon

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Speaker 1: after Carol learns from her lawyer that Harge is filing

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Speaker 1: for soul custody of their daughter on the grounds of

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Speaker 1: a morality clause because basically, because she's had a relationship

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Speaker 1: with women, she is considered an unfit mother. So Carol

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Speaker 1: is obviously very upset about this, and then to Raise

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Speaker 1: and her hanging out some more, and then her boyfriend

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Speaker 1: Richard is upset with her. He's like, you have a

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Speaker 1: crush on a woman and she's like, no, I don't,

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Speaker 1: but yes she does. I like how to raise like

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Speaker 1: she's she doesn't stand up for herself in a lot

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Speaker 1: of areas of her life, but against Richard, she's always

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Speaker 1: just like shut up. Like I was. I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my, I wish I could do that, where he's

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Speaker 1: just like, why don't you want to be my girlfriend?

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Speaker 1: And she's like leave me alone, go away, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to meet your Like she manages to do all

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Speaker 1: of it showing little to no emotions, which is which

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Speaker 1: is really impressive. Stop go away. I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: such a Rooney Mara to her in this episode, which

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Speaker 1: I can tell it like here, here's what I'm gonna say.

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Speaker 1: I actually really like Runey Mara and other things, so like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not this is not me like hating on Runey

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Speaker 1: Mara and no, totally from a queer standpoint, I wanted

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Speaker 1: her so bad girl with the dragon tattoo because that's

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Speaker 1: my type and way seen that movie. So this is

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Speaker 1: one of the few things that's runey Marian. But anyway, anyway, sorry,

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Speaker 1: it does seem like her being boring in this movie

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Speaker 1: was a choice because she can do not boring. Definitely,

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Speaker 1: That's why it was very well, yeah, should we wait

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Speaker 1: till the end of the Yeah? Okay, Well so whin

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Speaker 1: she's more Okay, so the rest of this recap here

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Speaker 1: we go. So then Carolin Torey has leave together to

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Speaker 1: go on a road trip to the Midwest, and they're

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Speaker 1: getting closer and closer. There's a hand touch here, there's

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Speaker 1: a hand on the shoulder there, and then at one

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Speaker 1: point rustling a fabric this like shots of a steering

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Speaker 1: wheel and you're just like, it's also to fall, and

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Speaker 1: then you're like, I'm sleepy. And then at one point

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Speaker 1: to Ray suggests that they share a motel room rather

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Speaker 1: than get two separate rooms. And then shortly after this

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Speaker 1: they finally kiss the mom and we've been waiting for

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Speaker 1: New Year's New Year's Eve, Yes, it's the New Year.

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Speaker 1: They kissed during the ball drop, and then they have sex,

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Speaker 1: and then they meet what seems like a nice gentleman

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Speaker 1: on their travels, but he turns out to be seems

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Speaker 1: he seems creepy. Yeah, I have magazines want to buy

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Speaker 1: the d like, yeah, is creepy. And the movie tells

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Speaker 1: you he's creepy because whenever you like, hear his voice

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Speaker 1: off screen before you see him, and then as soon

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Speaker 1: as you hear his voice, the camera tilts up really

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Speaker 1: fast and like a startling, like, oh, who's this guy is?

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Speaker 1: So you're like, we know not to trust him, but

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Speaker 1: we don't know why yet. But the reason why is

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Speaker 1: that he is a private snoop kind of guy who

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Speaker 1: Hard had hired to follow Carol and to Raise around

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Speaker 1: to record them to have further evidence in his case

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Speaker 1: in this divorce. So then Carol gets on a flight

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Speaker 1: back to New York and her friend Abby Sarah Paulson's

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Speaker 1: character flies in to drive to Raise back to New York,

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Speaker 1: and then Carol has left a letter that effectively breaks

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Speaker 1: off their relationship. She's like, we shouldn't have any contact,

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Speaker 1: and you know by forever to Raise is devastated understandably,

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Speaker 1: and then we cut to some time later, Um, she's

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Speaker 1: developing some photos she took. Carol has been seeing a

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Speaker 1: psychotherapist and she's clearly trying to do whatever it takes

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Speaker 1: so that she can keep seeing her daughter. To Raise

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Speaker 1: makes an effort to contact her, but then eventually stops.

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Speaker 1: Is at this point that Carol has had it. She's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna see my daughter and I'm gonna keep being

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Speaker 1: with women, and that's my final offer. Bangs her table,

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Speaker 1: damn it. And then the guy's like oh, and then

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Speaker 1: Carol contexts Raise, and then they meet up and then

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Speaker 1: it's the same scene we see in the very beginning,

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Speaker 1: which we weren't really sure what was going on, but

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Speaker 1: now we get it. Carol asks if Rays wants to

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Speaker 1: come live with her in her new apartment, and then

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Speaker 1: Trace is like, no, I don't think so. Carol says,

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Speaker 1: I love you, and just then they get interrupted and

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Speaker 1: Terrace goes to a party, and then Carrie Brownstein is

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Speaker 1: like making eyes at her there and we're like, sure,

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Speaker 1: why not, okay, and then but then Terray's returns to

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Speaker 1: the restaurant where Carol is at and then they look

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Speaker 1: at each other and then they smile, and then they're

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Speaker 1: going to be together the end. Also, Terres becomes a

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Speaker 1: photographer at the New York time and and still is

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Speaker 1: saying nothing, I think is she not just like I think,

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Speaker 1: like a file. Yeah, I think she's like what they

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Speaker 1: let girls do back just sitting a room with men

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Speaker 1: and take notes of what the men said. Yes, she's

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Speaker 1: got to glow up though it's better. Yeah. Yeah, she's

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Speaker 1: doing well for a woman. So that's the story. Let's

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Speaker 1: take a quick break and then we'll come right back

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Speaker 1: for the discussion. We're back. Yes, there's so much to

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Speaker 1: talk about. Well, why don't we hand it over to

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Speaker 1: the two of you and talk about the representation of

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Speaker 1: queerness and queer women in this movie and how you

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Speaker 1: felt it was handled and just your general thoughts on that.

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Speaker 1: I well, I should say I love this movie. I

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Speaker 1: would imaginally love this movie. I think I'm in the

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Speaker 1: minority of not just queer women, but like anyone like

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Speaker 1: I have definitely, both online and in person, been mildly

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Speaker 1: shamed for finding this movie riveting because most people do

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Speaker 1: think it's super boring. I've also been the opposite of

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Speaker 1: King shamed for thinking it's hot, like people have active

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Speaker 1: you just made it. I saw. I think this movie

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Speaker 1: is hot. I will defend that later, but yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think I'm in the minority. That being said, I think

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Speaker 1: it's a good depiction. I mean it is you know,

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Speaker 1: it is of a very specific time period. It definitely

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Speaker 1: has its issues. I think watching it this time, I

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Speaker 1: think there are two people of color in the entire movie.

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Speaker 1: They do not speak there in service positions. Uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: And you know we make the argument like, well it's

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Speaker 1: that time, and they like of this stature, they wouldn't

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Speaker 1: they'd only be interacting with white people, and like, yes,

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Speaker 1: that's true, but also what the fuck? Um? So, yes,

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Speaker 1: I think this movie has this issues in terms of

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Speaker 1: queerness specifically. I think it's a great depiction. U I

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Speaker 1: can talk now about what I perceive. Yeah, I know.

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Speaker 1: One of the kind of issues that I have with it,

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Speaker 1: I think, more so with Richard, is that so Terres

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Speaker 1: is like a blank slate, and so I think for

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Speaker 1: a lot of it's like people projecting what they like.

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Speaker 1: When Richard's like I love you, I want to spend

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Speaker 1: my life with you, it's like, what do you love

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Speaker 1: about her? Dude? What are you? Act? Question I had

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Speaker 1: to every single person who was like, actually, Carrie Brownsteen

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Speaker 1: at the end, she's like, how do you know fil

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Speaker 1: or something? She said, Well, I assume like everybody here

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Speaker 1: is fills friends and carry Brownsteen looks a her and goes,

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Speaker 1: I see why Phil speaks so highly? Yeah, back, why

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Speaker 1: why why she said words that is a misstep. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're like, what do you see? I was? It's just

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Speaker 1: Crazy's a photographer. She's not like the other girl. She's

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Speaker 1: not like the other girl. She has a fantastic haircut,

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Speaker 1: especially for that era stands out in the crowd. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think with Carol, initially, I think it's it's are

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Speaker 1: a definitely like a physical attraction and like a I

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Speaker 1: will call it a vibe, which I think in like

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Speaker 1: that's what you had to go off of, like if

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Speaker 1: there was any sort of electricity, You're like, I guess

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Speaker 1: I'll aggressively follow that because otherwise I'm never going to

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Speaker 1: meet anyone ever. Like That's just sort of how it was.

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Speaker 1: And I do think that Carol Enterrez. I think Carol

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Speaker 1: does get to know her as a person and does

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Speaker 1: love her for her. You can argue that the audience

386
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Speaker 1: has to do a lot of that work on their

387
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Speaker 1: own of like I know, because I can think in

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Speaker 1: the same thing because like we don't we see those

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Speaker 1: pretty shots of them with the hand and the wheel

390
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Speaker 1: and this and the whatever, but like the actual getting,

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Speaker 1: we don't get to know Tures much less Kate Blanchet, Like,

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Speaker 1: we don't have any idea why she actually likes her

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Speaker 1: other than this initial chemical attraction that they have. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I agree with you. I'm not

395
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 1: sure I buy that anyway. Um, their chemistry have seen

396
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: much better chemistry. But like, I don't think. I don't

397
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,160
Speaker 1: think it's horrible, but I just to me, I'm like,

398
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Speaker 1: I can't, I cannot Cate Blanchett is so she has

399
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 1: so much power her character, and she is so well rounded,

400
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 1: and there's just there is so much that she brings

401
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 1: to the table that you're like, why this blank slate

402
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: of a person. Well, I think that's part of what

403
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 1: she's attracted to. I think Tres place everything like so

404
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: close to the vest. You can argue that there's nothing

405
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 1: underneath the vest if you like, but I prefer to

406
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 1: think of it it's like Carol, that character. Everything is

407
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 1: just out like it is just out there. There's no subtlety,

408
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 1: there's like and Terres is like a mystery or you know,

409
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 1: like she's got and some people are drawn to that,

410
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Speaker 1: especially people who are very like spotlight on me all

411
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Speaker 1: the time. I do think there's an attraction to people

412
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Speaker 1: who are more like like what is she thinking? Which

413
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Speaker 1: is a line that she said, She's like, do you

414
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Speaker 1: know many times a day I ask you that I

415
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: liked I liked her in the book. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean because Runey Mara, I think it's like thirty

417
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,959
Speaker 1: when this movie is filmed or something. But the character

418
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Speaker 1: Torres and in the ages, I feel like we're sort

419
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Speaker 1: of intentionally not stated in the movie because of the actors.

420
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Speaker 1: But Torres is supposed to be like nineteen or twenty.

421
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Speaker 1: She's supposed to be really young, and so I'm like,

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Speaker 1: who has a personality when they're nineteen and they're you know,

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Speaker 1: I had a magnetic personality when I was nineteen. Well,

424
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 1: I certainly didn't like I, especially if I was around

425
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 1: like an older person that I was sexually intimidated by

426
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 1: and had a huge question and I don't know, like

427
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: I I again, it's like, it's it's weird because I

428
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 1: agree with both of you that it is is a

429
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 1: boring movie, but they were also I I really I

430
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: don't know, I like related to her with just there

431
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: were moments where her personality, Like she snapped at Richard

432
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: constantly because she just wasn't intimidated by him and was

433
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 1: very direct with the people. She wasn't intimidated by people.

434
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: She was. She kind of disappeared and I was like, oh,

435
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: that's how I was when I was nineteen. Hopefully I

436
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 1: wasn't quite that boring. But there's you know, boring representation

437
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: in this movie is high. Well, someone needs to represent

438
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 1: I mean there's not enough of that. There's boring person

439
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: eratre and I think this movie does a lot in

440
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: that area. But yeah, no, I think with the with

441
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: the with people, she's not intimidated by it, specifically men,

442
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 1: because in that scene at night with that guy Danny

443
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 1: in the office, he's like, oh I think like right

444
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: before he kisses her and he's like, I think people

445
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: are and she's like, I don't think that at all. Right, Yeah,

446
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: I mean that's energy, and she like disagrees with him.

447
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: She's like, I don't think that. But then yeah, with Carol,

448
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: she's very I let myself get hopelessly sidetracked, as I do.

449
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 1: But what I was going to say, Nicole is like

450
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: in seeing this, since Nicole and I both volunteer facilitate

451
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: at the l A LGBT Center, and in in doing

452
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: that and in seeing in talking to like so many

453
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 1: women who are like just coming out, so especially in

454
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: the early nineteen fifties, especially when she's like one whatever,

455
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: I think it's like she's not a fully formed person

456
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 1: because she hasn't reckoned with that part of herself. So

457
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: I think she literally is a blank slate because there's

458
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: this huge part of her like she's getting you guys,

459
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: like she's as fuck like she s he's girl, and

460
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 1: she's like it's like she's this girl who hasn't had

461
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: any of that developed, so she's coming across as just

462
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: like this literally empty vessel. I don't know. It was

463
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 1: really interesting for me to watch this movie having now

464
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: met so many women who are just initially coming out

465
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: and like coming into themselves, and I was like, oh,

466
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 1: I have decided to believe that that Rooney Mara is

467
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 1: making a really intelligent character choice, and that's what I've

468
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 1: decided to be. Sounds like me on the Paddington episode. Yes,

469
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: I definitely see that read of it, and I hadn't

470
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: considered that before, so so thank you. I suppose where

471
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: I was coming from it is that to me? Like,

472
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 1: as I said, there wasn't didn't feel like there was

473
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 1: that much chemistry on screen between the two of them,

474
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: and I wondered if that had anything to do even

475
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 1: though I think they're both excellent actors like and I

476
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: do like Rooney Mara. I do think she's as we said,

477
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: social network. We've all seen it, and I do like

478
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: her and girl with the dragon tattoo and everything like that.

479
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: But um yeah, I found her perhaps two withdrawn in

480
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 1: this movie. But I'm wondering if the lack of chemistry

481
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: had to do with them both being straight or at

482
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: least married to men. I don't know exactly how Runey

483
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: Mara and Kate Blanchett identified, but they're married to men,

484
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: So I'm wondering would there have been more chemistry, would

485
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: it have been like a hotter let being romp if

486
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: they queer women? Well, and potentially I think that that's

487
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 1: that's true, Um, I mean, and who knows, they've never

488
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 1: to my knowledge, have never come out one way or another,

489
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: if anybody can correct me on that, But um yeah,

490
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: I mean the problem is that, you know, with a

491
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: movie like that, or like movie like Disobedience or whatever,

492
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: these like big movies that we're seeing coming out that

493
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: actually are starring um, queer women, or which I'm called

494
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 1: what was the one this year with your girlfriend girlfriend?

495
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: The Favorite, which absolutely loved, Like you need are they

496
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: think that you need big star names and there are

497
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: just almost no queer females who are at that level

498
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: of their career like out at least out. So unfortunately,

499
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: until either people start coming out or those queer women

500
00:28:54,240 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: become famous, we're not gonna see are available, but we

501
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: are are available and we have chemistry with women. Um,

502
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think um. In terms of going back

503
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: to the initial question about like how does this represent

504
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: queer women and queerness, it definitely checks a couple of

505
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: boxes in that you have like the lesbian ex girlfriend

506
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: who is now the best friend, Like that is a

507
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,479
Speaker 1: thousand percent a lesbian truth, just like you break up

508
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: and then you're like, but I guess we're just besties now.

509
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: And that's so immediately I was like, can do you

510
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: drive my current girlfriend across the country? She's like sure, fine,

511
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: incredible accommodating. Yeah, Like it's just exactly so I was like, no, okay,

512
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: um that and also, um, the sad reality of you know,

513
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: going back to the blank slate that is Rooney Mara,

514
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: the sad reality of getting completely consumed by your first

515
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,719
Speaker 1: girlfriend so that your entire life is about absolutely nothing

516
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: but that woman, are and wrote down. When I watched

517
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: it the second time, I was like, wow, if there was,

518
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: this is going to sound very medicines Like the Bechtel

519
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: test is sort of a lesbian test. But if there was, like, uh,

520
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: like a Bechtel test I somehow existed for just women

521
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: in a just woman world and was really for lesbians,

522
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: she would fail it. I did because she because her

523
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: entire existence is about Carol. Granted the name of the

524
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: movie is Carol. Fine, we can, we can say that

525
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: this is a story, but like everything else just feels

526
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: so unimportant and uninvested in. I don't even I don't

527
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: believe her photography thing for one freaking minute. I'll be

528
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: honest with you, like, I don't. I just don't believe it.

529
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: And it's like her whole everything is Carol, and she

530
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: just like, okay, whatever you say, you know, I just

531
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: I don't know anything really about her outside of that.

532
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: So I was like, wow, if she were a guy,

533
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: this would fail so so hard, and be so stereotypical,

534
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: but I hate to say it that like a lot

535
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: of first girlfriend's situations are that way. So yeah, So

536
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: I thought that was actually horribly accurate. The way that

537
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: she talked about her photography career I thought was always

538
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: I mean, because she is kind of a very passive

539
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: character in some ways that I thought were like made

540
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: sense with the character and otherwise where I'm like no, what, no,

541
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: stand up for yourself a little bit, where like anytime

542
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: someone would bring up her photography should be like, I'm horrible,

543
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: I'm not good, I don't have the camera. I've never

544
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: done it before, and it was just like you've been

545
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: doing it for years, like please, It's like if we

546
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: like I've like, actually i've only done one open mic,

547
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm doing. I'm and then I

548
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: just like buried myself alive her moments where I'm just like,

549
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: you've done this before, Relax, It's fine. Yeah. I had

550
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,719
Speaker 1: a I have a quote from Kate Blanchett. She was asked,

551
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: I think it was last year maybe in about um

552
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: straight actors playing characters because it is like such a

553
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: conversation that you know it's out there, and she she

554
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: gave like a pretty direct answer, and when asked about

555
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: Carol directly, she said, quote, I will fight to the

556
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: death for the right to suspend disbelief and play roles

557
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: beyond my experience. So that was like her direct statement

558
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: on straight actors playing queer characters. And I guess I

559
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: just wanted to get your opinions or thoughts on that.

560
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: I don't disagree with that as an actor, to be honest,

561
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: and that's probably it is an unpopular opinion in some

562
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,239
Speaker 1: spheres right now, Um, I don't. I don't disagree with it.

563
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: I think that there are limits to that, obviously, when

564
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: we're talking about like playing a different race or something

565
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: where especially when the when the role is written specifically

566
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: with a certain race in mind and has cultural references,

567
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: et cetera. That is a line obviously, but something like

568
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: with the queer characters. I just the problem is that

569
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: you can take this argument that people are making to

570
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: an extreme, so that actors are only ever allowed to

571
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: play what their experience is, and then what is acting?

572
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: You know, I think like and we can see that

573
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: being taken to that place by certain people and casting

574
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: and producers and stuff right now. Anyway, that said, I

575
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: understand trying to balance it so that you are getting

576
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: actors seen for roles that they hadn't been seen for before.

577
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,479
Speaker 1: Like it just wasn't okay to be an out actor

578
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: for so long, and when you have only you know,

579
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: straight people playing gay roles, people go, what what about

580
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: all of our queer actors? You know? And then queer

581
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: actors so for so long haven't been allowed to play

582
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: straight roles quote unquote when being out because no one

583
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: can see them as anything else but gay. But when

584
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: a straight actor plays gay, they're like, well yeah, yeah,

585
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: Like so that's that's where that is problematic and where

586
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: people need something needs to shift so that actors can

587
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: just be actors. You know. I think I'm still processing

588
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: my feelings on this and have been for like probably

589
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: a year now because it's come so much into the

590
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: forefront with people like Scarlett Johanson and the issue, and

591
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: I think I fall way more on the side of like, hey,

592
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: let's not do that in terms of CIS actors playing

593
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: trans characters. That to me does feel more black and white,

594
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: where it's like, hey, let's stop doing that. But then

595
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,919
Speaker 1: but then that has forced me to be like, Okay, Lauren,

596
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: if that's your feeling on that, then does that translate

597
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 1: to you know, straight actors playing career actors. And ultimately,

598
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: I think I do lean more towards what Nicola is saying,

599
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: where it's like, no, that feels like a different it's

600
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: the same. Maybe it's the same, like ballpark, but it's

601
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: like a different look. I don't know baseball. It's like

602
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 1: right field, like it's a different part Funday night Light. Uh. Yeah.

603
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: And also like I never want Rachel Vice to stop

604
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: playing queer characters, like please God, So I can never

605
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: firmly come down the side that I think for something

606
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: like Bad Woman, like let's all fucking support like the

607
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: fact that they actively look to cast a queer female,

608
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,479
Speaker 1: like let's all support the funk out of that show.

609
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: And like, yes, I'm so glad it's Ruby Rose. But

610
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,479
Speaker 1: I think, like Nicole is saying, let's look to get

611
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 1: more of that. But I don't think it should be

612
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: an exclusive, should be a requirement. Yeah, I agree that

613
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: it becomes very very difficult not to mention that casting

614
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: starts to become extremely difficult. Well right now you literally

615
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: can't do it, Like what is Kristin Stewart gonna literally

616
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: play every fucking please, God, no you speaking of cardboard?

617
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 1: I just you can't do it right that. Actually it's funny.

618
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: I thought of Kristin Stewart several times while watching in

619
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 1: this movie because I was like, this must be the

620
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: thing that everybody is like, well, she's there's a mystique.

621
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, God, like give me personality. Mystique can

622
00:35:55,560 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: really I don't know, do youk is the only thing

623
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: boring people have? There's so many. Have you ever had

624
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: like an experience like that with someone where you're just like,

625
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 1: I don't know what are they all about? Like what's

626
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 1: going on? And then we get to know them, You're like, oh,

627
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: they just they're bored. I think maybe I'm a runey

628
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: mari apologist because I think I think I fall for

629
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: that a lot. I think I'm in the traditionally in

630
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: the past, I'm working on all of this in therapy,

631
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: you guys taking care of it. But I think I

632
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: have been guilty of the like, oh that girl is mysterious,

633
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: and I'm like you got to know, and you're like,

634
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: oh that girl is boring. So maybe I relate. I

635
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: feel like it goes one of two ways. You you're

636
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: mystique because you're either boring or you're fucked up. It's

637
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 1: like one, yeah, what a fun journey every time, or

638
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: or the strangers sucked up and yet still boring. I

639
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: don't see more of that. Yeah, we're all my fund

640
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: up boring people at I might be one of them.

641
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 1: I don't know. Um, we need to take another quick break,

642
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: but we will be right back and we're back. Uh.

643
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 1: Speaking of back, should we talk a little bit about

644
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: the back story of this. Yeah, let's talk. Let's talk

645
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: Patricia high Smith while we're at it. Let I did

646
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: not know that much. I knew, I knew her name,

647
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: and I knew I did not know she had written

648
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: this book, which was originally called The Price of Salt

649
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: Um came out in ninety two. But I knew her

650
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 1: as the writer of the talented Mr Ripley. She was

651
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 1: like famous for being a psychological thriller writer. Yeah, she

652
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 1: also wrote the novel for Strangers on a Train. She's

653
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: a fascinating, complicated dare is a problematic yes? Um? Yeah,

654
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: So she wrote this The Price of Sault under a

655
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: pseudonym Claire Morrigan two and then it was republished thirty

656
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 1: eight years later as Carol under Patricia Highsmith's own name,

657
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: and then it was adapted into the film Carol that

658
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: we now know and are talking about, Um, bye bye,

659
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: and the woman who adopted it, Phyllis n G. I

660
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 1: think is as Yeah, I don't know how to say

661
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: her last name, but that the woman who adapted the

662
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: screenplay knew Patricia high Smith, and I think like the

663
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: last ten years of her life, um, which I think

664
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: is like kind of like a rare, rare success. Uh

665
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 1: and adaptation. But anyways, back to Patricia, Yes, Carol. Screenwriter

666
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: Phyllis something like that described high Smith as a lesbian

667
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: who did not very much enjoy being around other women. Um.

668
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: And this is something that you'll find a lot concerning

669
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: how high Smith was described and considered. Um, she seemed

670
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 1: to be a misogynist. She did not like other women.

671
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,280
Speaker 1: She basically would sometimes have sex with men just because

672
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: she enjoyed their company more her whole. I mean, there's

673
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: a lot of going. Well, the internalized misogyny is strong

674
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 1: with this one. Yeah. She was compared to being a

675
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: movie studio boss who would chase Starlett's speaking of This

676
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 1: movie was produced by the Weinstein Company. The first frame

677
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: you're like, she was also pretty racist. She was very

678
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 1: racist anti Semitic. So the problem, there's a lot of

679
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: problems like her. Uh the yeah that she was described

680
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: as quote a lesbian with a misogynist streak unquote, and

681
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: then there are a few people that are like she

682
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: was actually you know, like she struggled with a lot

683
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: of depression. There was a lot of mental illness going

684
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: on as well that seemed to get worse as she

685
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: grew older. A very complicated person. One thing I found

686
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 1: out about her that I just want to with the

687
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: class is that she had three hundred snails. Okay, so

688
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: she had three hundred snails and one time she went

689
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,399
Speaker 1: to a party with a huge handbag full of one

690
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 1: hundred snails eating lettuce. And if I read that, I

691
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: was like that could so you like, did you ever

692
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 1: read an anecdote where you're like, that could be me

693
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: in forty years easily? Easily? I mean you had those leeches.

694
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: I was like, she just like brought her snails out.

695
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: There's your expression. You lead with your crazy. If you

696
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: can't handle me with my hundreds in the bag, you

697
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 1: don't deserve me. I mean, that's the lesbian trope. Though, right,

698
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: just bringing a bunch of snails, the snails in a

699
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: bag thing, true. I mean, her Wikipedia page is just

700
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 1: it is fucking why it it's there like she's racist,

701
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:06,879
Speaker 1: she's misogynist. She wrote the first like lesbian novel ever,

702
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: and she has three hundred snails and you're just like,

703
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: what is I read it that she wrote the first

704
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: lesbian novel with a happy ending Yes sorry I should

705
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: have oh yeah, which I was definitely gonna comment on that. Actually,

706
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 1: how like it's a funny thing because throughout launching the

707
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: movie again and with an eye for Bechtel test kind

708
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: of stuff, I couldn't help but feel because it's true

709
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: that even though it is to the repeatedly two women

710
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 1: in a room talking more than two lines of dialogue

711
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: about things that aren't about a man, um so it

712
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: clearly passes the presence of a man. A man specifically

713
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,879
Speaker 1: like looms over everything to the point where there are like,

714
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: with the exception of the last moment of the movie,

715
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: there are no enjoyable moments. It's like there's no moment

716
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: where you really can just let go. Even the even

717
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,879
Speaker 1: the score does that right when they're having sex, it's

718
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: like like big like like scary, sort of like ominous

719
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: sounding music, you know which, So there's this cloud over everything,

720
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 1: and it definitely, um, that's sort of unfortunate trope of

721
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: of queer cinema or queer content where like they have

722
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: sex and then it all goes wrong, like immediately happens.

723
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: I did like that they balked that a little bit

724
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: in the in the sense that they still had sex

725
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: again that night, so it was a little bit of

726
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 1: an f you. But then she leaves again the next day,

727
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: so it's like until that last moment, the presence of

728
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 1: a man is hanging over every single thing that happens.

729
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 1: And granted that is the time period, but I do

730
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: think that this film, I don't want to say it's problematic,

731
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: but it definitely still falls in that category of like, well,

732
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:55,879
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't want to be a queer

733
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 1: person like that, like that's a it's a it's a

734
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 1: difficult old queer story. Yeah, well I was going to

735
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: say that, Um, yes, I guess this movie technically has

736
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: a happy ending because we're to understand that they end

737
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: up together, but at such a huge cost, where Carol

738
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: has to sacrifice so much her dadaughter, so I mean,

739
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 1: it's it's not that happy. Especially, I mean, we see

740
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: how much she loves her daughter, and then she has

741
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 1: to go into therapy to continue to see her daughter,

742
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: which is to see. I thought that was like, I

743
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: thought that she was calling a stop tall. I thought,

744
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: like the compromise that she offers is like, I can't

745
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 1: go against my own grant. I'm going to live my

746
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: life like I am insisting on visitation. But then she

747
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: only saw her daughter like once or twice. Yeah, but

748
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: that but my understanding is at the court or what not,

749
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 1: the court hearing whatever, with the stenographer, whatever the hell

750
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 1: that Yes, I thought that that happened like days before

751
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: she sees to rest. Oh, I guess we don't know

752
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: how much time has passed. I don't think so, because

753
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: they're already selling the house. She already has an apartment

754
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: and a job. Didn't happen in a couple of days.

755
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: This has been a couple of months usually. I also,

756
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 1: I think I was because I read about Patricia Highsmith

757
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 1: before I watched the movie all the way through, and

758
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: it does seem like there are elements of Patricia Highsmith's

759
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: life that are included in this movie because she was

760
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: a Bloomingdale's girl, and and she was in therapy for

761
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: many years, essentially a version of gay conversion therapy that

762
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 1: she very much wanted to work. So I that was

763
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 1: how I read it, But I think that was just

764
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: because I had just finished reading all this about Patricia

765
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: Highsmith of like, they frame her sexuality as basically a

766
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: mental illness, and then you see her in therapy and like, oh,

767
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,919
Speaker 1: that doesn't seem good, but so not specific, I don't.

768
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 1: I guess what I really like about this movie is

769
00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: that both characters, both Terres and Carol, are like unapologetic

770
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: about their sexuality and they're not keeping it a secret

771
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: from at least the people around them. Like Richard knows

772
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: about her crush on Carol. Harge knows also Hard what

773
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: is that name? Hard Arch the whole first time I

774
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 1: saw also what is that name? Though? But um, so

775
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 1: Harge knows about Carol, And yes, at the end, she

776
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: says like, I'm not going to go my grain. Here's

777
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: my final offer. I want visitation rights. But yeah, I

778
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:34,359
Speaker 1: mean she doesn't have custody of her daughter, hard soul custody,

779
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:38,760
Speaker 1: and so we know that Hard just like a dysfunctional alcoholic.

780
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: So her daughter is not better off because we see

781
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: Carol it. You know, she's a great mom and she

782
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,399
Speaker 1: loves her daughter, and she brusses her hair so much.

783
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: I was just like, if you have to clean up

784
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 1: your daughter's brush every day, my friend, your daughter is

785
00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: going bold but hey, baldest woman in charge, true grendy

786
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 1: will someday be in charge. Um. But yeah, so, I

787
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: mean it makes me appreciate the era that we live

788
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: in now, which is still not great. But at least,

789
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 1: you know, homosexual audio isn't considered a mental illness anymore,

790
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,359
Speaker 1: you know all that. So I like that they're unapologetic

791
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: about their sexuality, but it still comes at at a

792
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: great cost, especially for Carol and her daughter, So it does.

793
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: And yeah, so it is hard to feel happy. I

794
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: didn't feel happy at the end of that movie. That's

795
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: for sure. It's not very uplifting. It's just not. But yeah,

796
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: I also, I mean, and again part of this goes

797
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 1: back like I will, I've promised I will cease and

798
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: desists soon on this point. But like I also look

799
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: at it into my for that girl, like a like

800
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: for her. I mean, like I look at you know,

801
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: the relationship with Abby, I totally understand, like that that

802
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: friendship and that closeness and all of that sacrificing for

803
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 1: that relationship I really get. And sacrificing just for who

804
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: you are, regardless of who you're with or if you're

805
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: with anybody, I totally get. But like for that girl also,

806
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 1: And I just have to say this because this is

807
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 1: sadly on on brand for lesbians. Um, but the like, oh,

808
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 1: we went on a two week trip together and then

809
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: we didn't speak and now do you want to move in?

810
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 1: Is like such a lesbian and that's just like normal.

811
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: Oh god, well Carol, so much like I remember the

812
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: first time that I saw this in the theaters, I

813
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: remember being so cringe e about how like that first

814
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: scene where they have food and she's like, would you

815
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 1: like to visit me this Sunday? Like it's like, what

816
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: are you doing? You just learned you just asked her

817
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:54,879
Speaker 1: first name like seconds before. So yeah, there's definitely there's

818
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: a lot of cringe worthy lesbian stereotype. I didn't feel

819
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: as predator worry is sort of like the predatory romance

820
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: that you see in like Debs, but there's still like

821
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: a huge power dynamic imbalance between the two of them

822
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 1: where Carol is much wealthier, she is older, and she's

823
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: more sexually experienced. And then she and and also in

824
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 1: in this movie, and this was like an adaptation change

825
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: that I when I like figured out that had been changed,

826
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:27,919
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, I don't really like that they

827
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 1: made her a virgin in this She not in the book. No,

828
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 1: she had been having said she had been having unfifilling

829
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 1: sex with Richard, and like there was more context for it. Yeah,

830
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: And then I feel like they almost do that character

831
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 1: kind of a disservice by being like, you know, she's

832
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 1: just floating around like I don't know, and it's not

833
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 1: a Madonna horror thing, but that choice is just sort

834
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: of indicative of like washing that character and making her

835
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: even you know, because it's like if she not saying that,

836
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 1: if you're a virgin, you don't have any life experience,

837
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: but it just having that character have some experience going

838
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: into that relationship would have made me feel more comfortable

839
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 1: with the relationship happening, because you're like, the power dynamics

840
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: are a little off, and I mean we're sort of

841
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: led to believe that it's brought up a bunch of times,

842
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,720
Speaker 1: even though she still has her own apartment in granted village,

843
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 1: but she's a shop girl. She's young, she can't really

844
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 1: afford to pursue her passion. Like she's in a very

845
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 1: very different position as Carol. And and I don't know,

846
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: I was trying to picture movies with I mean, there's

847
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 1: a ton of movies about hetero relationships where there's a

848
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,879
Speaker 1: man who's much older wooing a much younger woman, and

849
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,719
Speaker 1: this is not that movie, but there are elements of

850
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 1: that where it's like that should have been a discussion.

851
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: And I feel like Abbey is the only one who

852
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: really brings it up. Is like she's so like she

853
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 1: is the most grounded, like she's fucking great. But I

854
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 1: will say with Carol Terrez, because I did watch it

855
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: through a twenty nineteen lens, it's like a hundred as

856
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,359
Speaker 1: far as I could tell, it's fully consent based, like

857
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 1: she she's asking aggressively, but she doesn't do anything without

858
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 1: being like is this okay? Would you like to do this?

859
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: Like blah blah blah. And with the sex scene, it's

860
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 1: like Terres is the one who's like taking and it's

861
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: like never implied that they would have any reason to

862
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,879
Speaker 1: feel unsafe around each other too, which is like makes

863
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,439
Speaker 1: a huge difference. And as far as I could tell,

864
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: Carol never holds anything over to res in terms of like,

865
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: well I have more money than you, or I'm like

866
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 1: like she never like uses that like the imbalance of

867
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: power to her advantage. As far as I could it

868
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: just kind of unacknowledged. It's just like a thing that exists, right,

869
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:55,959
Speaker 1: I don't know. It would just be nice to see

870
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: more representation in mainstream movies of queer women where it

871
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: wasn't such an imbalance of power. It would be nice

872
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 1: to see a movie about two queer women where no

873
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 1: one has to make a huge sacrifice. You know. It

874
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: would be nice to see more queer women of color.

875
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: It would be nice to see more you know, trans

876
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 1: and non binary people in mainstream movie. And I think

877
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 1: that I've see people asking for a lot on on

878
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: queer Twitter, as it were, is like, hey, can we

879
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: get more movies where both women are already out and

880
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 1: that's not like realizing or comic terms is not an

881
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 1: element of the plot um And I think that would

882
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: be great that please. Indeed, I wanted to talk about how,

883
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,760
Speaker 1: just briefly about how the men are kind of presenting

884
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 1: in this movie because each and every single male character

885
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: who we get to know even the slightest bit is horrible.

886
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: Eric I kind of appreciated how the worst they were.

887
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: I mean there was I don't know, yeah, what did

888
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,240
Speaker 1: everyone think about the men? I just I was just like, yeah, fine,

889
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 1: Mr Football is mad. He what he's like often drunk,

890
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 1: He's usually full of rage and jealousy. He's very spiteful

891
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 1: when it comes to a bunch drunkenly following I think

892
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: one of the things and I and I am obviously

893
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: the minority in those, but I really like Kyle Chandler

894
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:30,879
Speaker 1: as a writer. And I also loved Friday. It's like, yes,

895
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: it's so good if if anybody hasn't seen it water

896
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 1: and like I hate football, So it's not it's not

897
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 1: about that anyway, but partly where I think like the

898
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 1: disservice to the men in this movie, and also just

899
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 1: honestly the story in this movie is that we don't

900
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 1: get to see even a flashback and even in anything,

901
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 1: any part of Carol and Harje's relationships, so like it

902
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 1: is very difficult, I think, to imagine those two people

903
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 1: being together other than they're both wealthy and good looking.

904
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 1: I guess, like I mean, really, it's very difficult to

905
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,359
Speaker 1: imagine it because we see so little of any of

906
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 1: the love left between them, and I don't know I

907
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,719
Speaker 1: would have liked to see because she says, like her

908
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 1: big last line is she's leaving that meeting or with

909
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 1: the loyal like the best best scene in the movie,

910
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 1: I think, but the exact perfect. She's so good, but

911
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: like she says something, you know, uh, then it will

912
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,280
Speaker 1: get ugly or it'll get ugly and we're not ugly

913
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: people or something like that. It's like it's some something

914
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 1: along those lines, and I guess I just wanted to

915
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: be like, wow, I would have really liked to see

916
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 1: him not being ugly then at some point or and

917
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,919
Speaker 1: like some semblance of like real good guy nous about

918
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,879
Speaker 1: him that I can imagine, he asked, but isn't there

919
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: because you can see his face and he seems to

920
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 1: be coming to an understanding or he he seems to

921
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,959
Speaker 1: be like, you're right, Carol, like but that's not who

922
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 1: he understood him to be previously he was completely like bullheaded,

923
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: and I kind of do I have sort of have

924
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: a different take again, Carol Apologist over here. But I well,

925
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 1: what I love about all the men in this movie

926
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: is they're like so oh fish, which to me is

927
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:20,360
Speaker 1: like hilarious, like they all fall down and something like um.

928
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: But I and I'm framing it in that era. I

929
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:28,439
Speaker 1: don't think either of those guys are like Richard's a dick,

930
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: But I don't think either of those guys are like

931
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: super bad guys, Like I think this is a guy who,

932
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: like his wife, has had at least one affair that

933
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,399
Speaker 1: he knows about, Like this is a guy he never

934
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,439
Speaker 1: I feel like in a different movie, we definitely would

935
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,919
Speaker 1: have gone like a smack or like a puncher, because

936
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 1: it's the guys drunk and I remember watching it originally

937
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 1: that's where I thought that was going. But he's the

938
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 1: one who falls down, like he's definitely too handsome with her,

939
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 1: But I don't. I think he is shown to be

940
00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 1: like this old fish, bumbling like this isn't how this

941
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:02,799
Speaker 1: is supposed to work kind of guy. But I don't

942
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 1: think he's evil, even Richard. I don't think it is

943
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: like terrible, Like I love that line where he's like

944
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 1: you made me buy tickets, Like he's this dude it's like,

945
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 1: what the fuck, Like we were thick the moment that

946
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 1: I did really like, I was like, oh that she

947
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 1: kind of did him dirty on that one where he

948
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 1: was yeah, because she she's been saving up money to

949
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: go on vacation with him, and she's like, actually, I

950
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:33,360
Speaker 1: just met this really kind of suck, like I do. Actually,

951
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 1: And I I often am the one who's feeling bad

952
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 1: for men in queer movies because sometimes I do think,

953
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: especially in lesbian films, they get like the short end

954
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:44,839
Speaker 1: of the stick and are shown to be just like

955
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: these like bumbling idiot oaths like whatever. And I'm like,

956
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 1: and especially as like the resident bisexual in the room,

957
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 1: I'm like, come on, not all guys are like yeah,

958
00:55:56,680 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: like like this, you know, and it actually And I

959
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 1: also think that stories are more interesting when you have

960
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: more realistic portrayals of characters, so that people aren't painted

961
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 1: as just bad or good and there is a little

962
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 1: bit more ambiguity, because it makes it more difficult for

963
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: the characters to make decisions when you know you're dealing

964
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 1: with two good people versus one good and one bad.

965
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 1: You know. Um, So I think that they could have

966
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: done a little bit better of a job with the

967
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 1: men in this making them slightly more multidimensional. The one

968
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 1: guy who I really liked, the guy with the accent

969
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 1: who like, yeah, the one who tries to Danny's like

970
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,399
Speaker 1: the one, but of course because he's like the film kid,

971
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like production, I don't think

972
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 1: we see enough that really exists in real life where

973
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: it's like the guy who's into the girl and like

974
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:48,879
Speaker 1: tries to kiss her, and then it's like, oh my bad,

975
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: you're queer, you're not into it, Like no, I'm going

976
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:53,760
Speaker 1: to be your best friend and help you paint your partner.

977
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 1: And he's just like so chilling cool, and he's like,

978
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 1: I think you really liked this lady, and she's like, no,

979
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 1: I don't. And if he's like come on, girl, he's

980
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 1: like a really good dad. But also he knew that

981
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 1: she had a boyfriend, Richard at the time and tried

982
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 1: to kiss her. Yeah, he's he's shy friends and to

983
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 1: like yeah, but I think once he realizes, like, and

984
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 1: that's a problem in and of itself, he should treat

985
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: her like a person, even if she's straight and not

986
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 1: into him. But at least once that guy realizes like, oh,

987
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: she's not into it. He's not like but I forever

988
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 1: Like he's like he helps her get a job at

989
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: the time, Yeah, yeah, he's he does come through for

990
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 1: her quite a bit, that he should have tried to

991
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 1: kiss her appropriately fair. I even afterwards was like, wait,

992
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: does she have a boyfriend? Because she makes so like

993
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 1: blase and noncommittal about Richard that like he probably is

994
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 1: like are they even dating? I mean, I, as the

995
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 1: audience member, was like, are they even dating? Richard? Thinking

996
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:04,919
Speaker 1: that they're dating, which totally happened, you know, yeah, yeah,

997
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 1: were You're just like are you I don't Yeah. Something

998
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 1: about the Harsh character that I think that that, again

999
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 1: was a weird adaptation thing because as far as I

1000
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 1: can tell, in the book, he has mentioned, but he's

1001
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 1: barely in it. He's not a main character at all.

1002
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 1: So he his character's part was really beefed up for

1003
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,919
Speaker 1: the movie. And I mean, it's it's weird. It's kind

1004
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 1: of like what everyone was saying. It seems like the

1005
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: fact he's not like a monster out right. But I don't, like,

1006
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 1: I don't understand why as much as I love Mr

1007
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: Football's pratfalls and being like why you not love me

1008
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: no more? Like being pissed and litigious whatever male villain

1009
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: tropes are employed there. I like you very if you're

1010
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 1: gonna like beef up that part and you want to

1011
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 1: make it like a nuance complicated movie, show that he's heartbroken,

1012
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 1: show that he's confused, like show that he doesn't like

1013
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 1: in less of a broad strokes way, because that almost

1014
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: felt like out of step with what the movie was

1015
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 1: trying to do with different relationships, where like Caroline Abbey's

1016
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: friendship is so nuanced and subtle and cool, and like

1017
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 1: most of the ways that people relate in this movie

1018
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:20,440
Speaker 1: seemed to be going for that subtlety. But it's weird,

1019
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 1: like hardest character is like kind of broad for this

1020
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 1: movie where he's just like mad alcoholic husband, And I mean,

1021
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:30,240
Speaker 1: I don't even know where I fall on it, because

1022
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 1: I'm like, I mean, I just if they were going

1023
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: to use him on screen that much, I wish it

1024
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: had been in a way that was a little more

1025
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 1: nuanced in servicing the story instead of just him becoming

1026
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: a litigious villain. Yeah, I agree with, especially if she's

1027
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 1: going to suggest at the end that that's not who

1028
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 1: he is deep down. And yeah, like you were saying

1029
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 1: Nichols is like, well, we've only seen him drunk and angry. Yeah,

1030
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 1: And I mean, like I get the it seems as

1031
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 1: though what they were going for maybe um with the

1032
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 1: men in these women's lives, right, So, Richard and Hard

1033
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 1: is that when men are heartbroken, they get angry, like

1034
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 1: and that is how they deal with being heartbroken is

1035
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: through anger and not vulnerability. I mean because like he shows,

1036
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 1: Hard shows up at Abbey's and like when he has

1037
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 1: nothing left to say, when Abbey's like stone walled him

1038
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 1: and been like she's not here, and he's like, but

1039
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 1: I love her, and she's like, I can't help you

1040
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 1: with that. And I think that those simple two lines

1041
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 1: say everything about the men in this movie in so

1042
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:36,440
Speaker 1: many ways, where it's like it is not the women's

1043
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 1: responsibility to cater to the men's feelings, you know, like

1044
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 1: you guys have fallen in love of your own accord.

1045
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 1: Sometimes that works out and sometimes it doesn't, and we

1046
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 1: can apologize for the things where we legitimately are wrong

1047
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 1: and have hurt you, but also then like it's up

1048
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 1: to you to be a big boy and take care

1049
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 1: of yourself without being destructive. And I think both of

1050
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: those men are coming from a point of view where

1051
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 1: they're like if A, then B. They're like, well, if

1052
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:09,240
Speaker 1: I love you, then that you must like those guys

1053
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 1: gets a feeling of ownership and entitlement. And I mean,

1054
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:15,520
Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties speak about an era where men

1055
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 1: did not know how to process their feelings, like we're

1056
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 1: not encouraged to. I mean, that's not even their fault entirely,

1057
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 1: you know, they were not That was weakness. So yeah, iusly,

1058
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 1: I wish it were a little clearer that. Like in

1059
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 1: the book, it seems like it's clearer that the whatever villain,

1060
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 1: if there is a villain of this story, is the

1061
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 1: culture that they're living in. It doesn't allow them to

1062
01:01:36,960 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 1: be here they are. But in this movie, I feel

1063
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 1: like they almost take the shortcut of being like it's

1064
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 1: the guys. That's a great point. It's such an insular movie.

1065
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 1: It's one of those movies where it's like is this

1066
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:47,920
Speaker 1: a stage flight where it's just like you don't really

1067
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 1: get a sense of the outside world at all. It's like,

1068
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 1: that's my ride, I got to ride a giant drama.

1069
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 1: Like everything that we're saying about, oh at that time,

1070
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 1: it's just because we know that, Like you don't see

1071
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:06,960
Speaker 1: a lot of like the outside world pressuring this and

1072
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 1: that it's like we're inferring that because all of us

1073
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 1: know what it was like to be queer in ninety

1074
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 1: But you're right that it's it is one of those

1075
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 1: super insular movies where we're just really seeing the characters

1076
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 1: we're seeing and there's not a lot of like different

1077
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 1: people running around being like I don't like Wars and

1078
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 1: then they just like cross the street and we never

1079
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 1: see him again. People just did that same players talking

1080
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 1: about how they don't like Career Evil. Um, it is

1081
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 1: basically just like it's a it's a close knit sort

1082
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:39,960
Speaker 1: of film. So everything that that we've been saying about,

1083
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 1: like oh, the time period and stuff, we're not really

1084
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:45,439
Speaker 1: shown that. We just we know that or we hear

1085
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 1: also like everybody in this film has extremely fine tuned gaitar,

1086
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:56,720
Speaker 1: which I like don't understand. I mean, Richard, like Richard

1087
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 1: has really no reason to believe that Terres has a

1088
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 1: rush on Carol, but he like picks it up on

1089
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 1: it right away, says it like it's not a thing,

1090
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 1: you know, like it is. It is very weird. And

1091
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 1: then like like every random lesbian the trees runs into

1092
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:13,479
Speaker 1: is like staring at her from across the room because

1093
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 1: they're all like I smell you, like like random, oh

1094
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 1: my god, I know they clogged her, like yeah yeah.

1095
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 1: And also everybody who has gaydar just stairs like is

1096
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 1: like just blatantly there that's my move. But I mean

1097
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 1: it's it is a little bit. It's a little silly

1098
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 1: and on the nose obviously, but also because like there

1099
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 1: was a whole code. It was like the handkerchief road

1100
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 1: I think yeah for gay men where you would like

1101
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 1: wear a certain color handkerchief in your back pocket to

1102
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 1: show the a you were queer, but like be what

1103
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 1: like type of queer you are and what you were

1104
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:54,960
Speaker 1: into so other men could pick up on it. So

1105
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: it's like guys, like, if gaydar were really as good

1106
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 1: as it's shown in Carol, no one would have needed

1107
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 1: the handkerchief coat. It's just it was a little we're

1108
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 1: gonna have to develop it them because they're clothes don't

1109
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 1: have pockets that the glass ceiling. It was like, we

1110
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 1: simply cannot carry the unfair standards of that are placed

1111
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 1: on women. Did you ever have this, uh that system

1112
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 1: in high school where the color of like rubber bracelet

1113
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:21,560
Speaker 1: you were wearing was like indicative of whether you were

1114
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 1: a virgin or not. That was a big thing I

1115
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 1: heard about that. I feel like that was I thought

1116
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:29,200
Speaker 1: that was like an urban legend, but maybe not like

1117
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 1: that was a news story where they're like, they're called

1118
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 1: bracelets kids. There was I would wear. I would wear

1119
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 1: a red bracelet my software, which you should never wear

1120
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 1: the braislet that means you're a virgin. But I didn't

1121
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 1: wear that. And then I, even when I was still

1122
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 1: a virgin, I swapped it out because I'm like and

1123
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 1: then every day I would look at my bracelet and

1124
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 1: be like, wow, that's so intensive. There was. There was

1125
01:04:56,520 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 1: an intense bracest when I was in high school. I uh,

1126
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 1: the cartilage of my right ear pierce and everyone's like,

1127
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:05,919
Speaker 1: if you get your right your pierce, that means you're gay.

1128
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 1: And that's like what, I've never heard that before. But

1129
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:09,840
Speaker 1: I also didn't care. I was like, I don't give

1130
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 1: a funk what people think my sexuality is. But um, yes,

1131
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 1: there's been codes. I guess what I enjoyed about this

1132
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 1: movie because a lot of the the tension does end

1133
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:24,960
Speaker 1: up because there's no sort of external cultural tension in

1134
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 1: terms of like society hate square people in this movie

1135
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:33,600
Speaker 1: that we see the tension then derives from largely the

1136
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:36,680
Speaker 1: male characters in the movie and the fact that they're

1137
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 1: I mean, and this is not to say that all

1138
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:42,200
Speaker 1: men are horrible, but since most movies are about how

1139
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 1: awesome men are and how freaking cool they are, and

1140
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:51,680
Speaker 1: also movies where men are the focus, if there is

1141
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 1: a female character, she's often presented as an obstacle in

1142
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:56,920
Speaker 1: some way, much of the way men are presented as

1143
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:58,880
Speaker 1: obstacles in this movie. So it was kind of nice

1144
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 1: to see that switch, sure, but I like, yeah, I

1145
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 1: don't know. It's like, at the end of I'm just

1146
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:09,400
Speaker 1: going to be split on on this because in one way,

1147
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's kind of lazy movie shorthand to just

1148
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 1: be like, this character symbolizes all oppression everywhere and most

1149
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:20,960
Speaker 1: people are actually really chill. But it's also like, I

1150
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 1: I don't dislike the man Haiti tropes that are employed

1151
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:26,920
Speaker 1: by this movie through those characters because you're like, well,

1152
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 1: you don't really get to see them very much. So yeah,

1153
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:34,280
Speaker 1: I think for me, I wrote, at times it's fun

1154
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 1: and at other times devastating and uncomfortable to see men

1155
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 1: constantly barking up the wrong treeze in this movie that

1156
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 1: way generally generally, even like that's it is that you

1157
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:48,080
Speaker 1: go back and forth and be like, ha, that's funny

1158
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 1: to be like, I don't feel good. Richard especially is

1159
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 1: such a dufe Like that part where Carol is picking

1160
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 1: up Terres and Richard's all like, Richard, hard not to

1161
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:02,080
Speaker 1: meet you, and and Carols like, oh, speaks very highly

1162
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 1: of you, and he's like, oh, well that's swell, and

1163
01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:12,760
Speaker 1: he's immediately like talking about a beard. Yeah, he is

1164
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 1: the guy from Obvious Child too, Yeah, like obscured by

1165
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 1: a hat. For most of time, that's all I can

1166
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:22,720
Speaker 1: see in those is like that, and the guy from Girls,

1167
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:28,880
Speaker 1: and I'm like perfect casting truly, Yeah, he's peaked casting. Yeah.

1168
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:33,000
Speaker 1: Here's something we don't often see is women eating in

1169
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 1: a movie which we see women eat quite a bit,

1170
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 1: and we also see women driving in a way that

1171
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:42,920
Speaker 1: it's not like them, like I just accidentally got on

1172
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 1: the freeway and I'm gonna crash, So I think it's

1173
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:51,959
Speaker 1: not like correct exactly. This movie normalizes period peace, that's right. Yeah,

1174
01:07:52,160 --> 01:07:56,000
Speaker 1: So it normalizes women driving and eating. So that's my

1175
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 1: hot take. Another point I saw being made about this.

1176
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 1: It was like the cinematography, which we've I mean, it

1177
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:08,040
Speaker 1: is so beautiful that you're sleeping, but the like absence

1178
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:13,120
Speaker 1: of perceived male gaze this movie, which is funny because

1179
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:17,800
Speaker 1: it's the cinematographer is a man. As the director, Yeah,

1180
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 1: Edward Edward Lachman, who has a pretty stellar record of

1181
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:27,120
Speaker 1: removing or at least I don't know, compartmentalizing the male

1182
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:29,120
Speaker 1: gaze for the movies he's worked on. He also did

1183
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:31,680
Speaker 1: the He did other Todd Haynes movies. He did Far

1184
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,720
Speaker 1: from Heaven Um, he did the Virgin Suicides. He did

1185
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:38,720
Speaker 1: a bunch of like very female focused movies that concerned

1186
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:42,200
Speaker 1: like women's bodies. And I don't know, I mean did that.

1187
01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 1: I mean that worked for me. I thought it was

1188
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:47,560
Speaker 1: very There is nothing that I felt was like objectifying

1189
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:52,000
Speaker 1: or like overly you know, like sexualizing women. You know,

1190
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:55,559
Speaker 1: we see the sex scene, but it felt very tastefully done. Yeah,

1191
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:58,360
Speaker 1: I loved it. And you know how you were saying, like, oh,

1192
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:00,760
Speaker 1: you see in the car, like the random shot of

1193
01:09:00,800 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 1: the steering wheel or like that kind of thing. I

1194
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:04,080
Speaker 1: think and again I haven't read the book, but I

1195
01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:07,280
Speaker 1: know that the book it's based on is it's the

1196
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 1: third person, but it's all from her as this point

1197
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 1: of view, and I think that this movie is like

1198
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:16,240
Speaker 1: shot almost entirely. Certainly any scenes she's in I read

1199
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:17,880
Speaker 1: as her point of view, which is why I think

1200
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 1: it's like you get these little chunks of like she's

1201
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:23,800
Speaker 1: looking at like there's a lot of like Cate Blanchet's mouth,

1202
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:25,720
Speaker 1: Like she's looking at her lips, or she's looking at

1203
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:27,519
Speaker 1: her hand. Are these things which to me I read

1204
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:30,439
Speaker 1: as her like sort of discovering her attraction for her.

1205
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:32,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, I thought it did a great job as

1206
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 1: being like, this is what this woman's experience is, and

1207
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:40,679
Speaker 1: you're seeing like little glimpses of it. And the color

1208
01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 1: palette was really reflective of that too, because it was

1209
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:46,439
Speaker 1: largely red and green, which also was helpful because it

1210
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 1: was around Christmas time, so you had that, but it

1211
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 1: was like red, green and gold sometimes as well, but

1212
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:53,720
Speaker 1: like red and green were primary, and Cate blanche it

1213
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:56,960
Speaker 1: was like almost always wearing something red um and certainly

1214
01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:59,800
Speaker 1: in the first half of the movie when like Ruoney

1215
01:09:59,880 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 1: mar Is discovering her um and then like Abby and

1216
01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:07,639
Speaker 1: Rooney Mara and and then sometimes Cape Blanchet two are

1217
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:11,320
Speaker 1: often wearing green or are are framed in green. So

1218
01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:14,640
Speaker 1: for you know whatever, more of like what is it

1219
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 1: like a obsession or there's like but there's a danger

1220
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:21,640
Speaker 1: Green is also a danger color, yeah, to which I

1221
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:24,080
Speaker 1: think was pretty cool. Like when you see Abby pull

1222
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:26,280
Speaker 1: up and she's got the green on, and you're like, oh,

1223
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:28,799
Speaker 1: danger because really she does represent like a very dangerous

1224
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:33,559
Speaker 1: part of Cape Blanchet's life. Yeah, So yeah, anyway, hopefully,

1225
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:36,320
Speaker 1: but I mean, yeah, the lack of male gay is

1226
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:39,920
Speaker 1: from the cinematographer. The director is a man, Todd Haynes,

1227
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:43,360
Speaker 1: but he's considered, you know, he's an out gay director.

1228
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:46,719
Speaker 1: He's considered a pioneer of the new queer cinema movement

1229
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:50,320
Speaker 1: that emerged in the early nineties. Um, the screenwriter is

1230
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:52,920
Speaker 1: a queer woman. A lot of the producers are women,

1231
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 1: also Harvey and Bob Weinstein. Oops, but when you have

1232
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:04,360
Speaker 1: a movie that's coming largely from either a female or

1233
01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 1: queer perspective or both, we're not surprised that it's handled

1234
01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:11,960
Speaker 1: a bit better. And and then adapting from from a

1235
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:15,320
Speaker 1: book that was also written by a queer woman, where like,

1236
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:18,040
Speaker 1: we have so many examples I always like jumped straight

1237
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:21,360
Speaker 1: to carry of, like, why is this like very famous

1238
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:24,920
Speaker 1: movie depicting women so poorly? It's oh, because uh straight

1239
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:27,520
Speaker 1: man was writing about teenage girls, and that was adapted

1240
01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:30,439
Speaker 1: by uh screenwriter who is a straight man writing about

1241
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:32,720
Speaker 1: teenage girls seen through the lens of a straight man

1242
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 1: leering at teenage girls, And that's why it's fucked up

1243
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:41,480
Speaker 1: like this, this movie manages to more or less avoid

1244
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:45,040
Speaker 1: most of that. And and then I think sort of

1245
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:48,360
Speaker 1: with the cinematography, they it's like if you had to

1246
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:52,680
Speaker 1: choose male cinematographer, I mean I would personally be like, oh,

1247
01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:54,439
Speaker 1: wouldn't it have been great if there was a female

1248
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:58,120
Speaker 1: cinematoxxer in this um or a queer female cinematographer. But

1249
01:11:58,160 --> 01:11:59,800
Speaker 1: if if there had to be a man, this seems

1250
01:11:59,840 --> 01:12:03,840
Speaker 1: like this was the man for that job. So that's

1251
01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:07,960
Speaker 1: how I felt about the director too. Yeah. Yeah, And

1252
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:11,160
Speaker 1: it also took so long for this movie to get made.

1253
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 1: It took twenty almost twenty years. Yeah, the film rights

1254
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:18,680
Speaker 1: were required in it had been in development since nine

1255
01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:23,479
Speaker 1: seven was the first Titanic years I know. And instead

1256
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:26,960
Speaker 1: they're released in the Daddy's Home Year, so that yeah,

1257
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:29,599
Speaker 1: I mean, it took so long to get the movie

1258
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:33,479
Speaker 1: funded properly, to get the right names attached, and just too,

1259
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:36,479
Speaker 1: I think, just the matter of waiting it for it

1260
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:39,720
Speaker 1: to seem like a quote unquote safe movie to have

1261
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:44,360
Speaker 1: a fairly wide release, and so you know, it's it's

1262
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:46,320
Speaker 1: impressive that it ended up the way it did and

1263
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:49,040
Speaker 1: that it happened at all. I mean, that's eighteen years

1264
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:52,280
Speaker 1: waiting to make a queer like, it's crazy. I read

1265
01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:54,960
Speaker 1: on IMDb that at some point it was like they

1266
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 1: were maybe going to try to do it like in

1267
01:12:56,600 --> 01:13:00,679
Speaker 1: the nineties sixties and who not Rita Hayworth, Like someone

1268
01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:02,760
Speaker 1: was attached, but that was gonna be a huge thing.

1269
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:04,920
Speaker 1: And then I read and this sounds like a sketch,

1270
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:08,120
Speaker 1: but I read that a treatment was written where the

1271
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:11,320
Speaker 1: name and gender were changed and it was Carl and

1272
01:13:11,360 --> 01:13:15,280
Speaker 1: it was and I was like, because kin edit IMDb.

1273
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 1: So I was like, I need to do more research

1274
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:19,479
Speaker 1: on this, but I want to believe that happened, because

1275
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 1: that fucking table that it would have been turned into

1276
01:13:24,080 --> 01:13:29,600
Speaker 1: a gay mail story or a heater and it was

1277
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:32,000
Speaker 1: just like a treatment that was written and like this

1278
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:34,960
Speaker 1: and it never went But I'm like, how did someone

1279
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:38,960
Speaker 1: spent time? What would that story even be? And if

1280
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:47,240
Speaker 1: Carols boring would have been unwatchable. But that ex told

1281
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:51,760
Speaker 1: me when I read that, I honestly I believe I

1282
01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:56,600
Speaker 1: believe it. I thought it's true. I want to be

1283
01:13:56,720 --> 01:13:59,120
Speaker 1: the internew had to write coverage on the treadman of

1284
01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:02,679
Speaker 1: carl Or or the man that had to confidently pitch

1285
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:05,800
Speaker 1: it to Patricia Highsmith and be like, listen, I love

1286
01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:09,240
Speaker 1: what you're doing. I see what you're doing. What about Coral.

1287
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:12,280
Speaker 1: She just throws the snail at him. It's like, get

1288
01:14:12,280 --> 01:14:19,240
Speaker 1: out of my office. One of them as well, Hey,

1289
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 1: do you think this movie passes the Bechdel test or not?

1290
01:14:24,479 --> 01:14:27,439
Speaker 1: What does? Very much? I don't think there's a single

1291
01:14:27,479 --> 01:14:30,720
Speaker 1: scene of two men talking without a woman there. I was.

1292
01:14:31,479 --> 01:14:34,639
Speaker 1: I was half paying attention for that. So there's scenes

1293
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:36,519
Speaker 1: with multiple men in the room, but there's always, at

1294
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:41,240
Speaker 1: least I think there's always a woman involved. Yeah, and

1295
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:44,559
Speaker 1: then yeah, there's a lot of different combinations of characters

1296
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:49,760
Speaker 1: talking the past, the test between Caroline Tarez, between Caroline Abbey,

1297
01:14:49,920 --> 01:14:52,479
Speaker 1: Abbey and Tarez, So yeah, you see a lot of

1298
01:14:52,479 --> 01:14:57,639
Speaker 1: different combinations of lots of options for scene study class indeed,

1299
01:14:57,920 --> 01:15:00,160
Speaker 1: because that's like what the Bectel test means to me

1300
01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:02,600
Speaker 1: in my life. It's like going back to college and

1301
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 1: being like, why can't have found any scenes with two

1302
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:08,120
Speaker 1: girls to work on? And you're like, because acting school

1303
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:11,560
Speaker 1: is you know women. Anyway, it's great, we have to

1304
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:14,080
Speaker 1: use the three guys over and over and over again

1305
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:19,080
Speaker 1: in class because there are no scenes for all of us.

1306
01:15:19,080 --> 01:15:22,960
Speaker 1: This is also another fairly rare example of a movie

1307
01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:27,360
Speaker 1: that passes the Vito Russo test. And if you're not

1308
01:15:27,439 --> 01:15:30,720
Speaker 1: familiar with that, what that is, listeners. It is a

1309
01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:35,519
Speaker 1: test that requires that a film must contain a character

1310
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:40,559
Speaker 1: who is identifiably lgbt Q. Plus the character must not

1311
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:43,880
Speaker 1: solely or predominantly be defined by their sexual orientation or

1312
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:46,720
Speaker 1: gender identity. So, in other words, they need to be

1313
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:48,920
Speaker 1: made up of the same sort of like unique character

1314
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:52,240
Speaker 1: traits that are commonly used to differentiate straight characters from

1315
01:15:52,240 --> 01:15:59,960
Speaker 1: one another. And Cape Blanchet right, photographer, she's a photographer, uh,

1316
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:03,080
Speaker 1: And the queer character must be tied into the plot

1317
01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:04,960
Speaker 1: in such a way that their removal from the story

1318
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:13,480
Speaker 1: would have a significant impact. So basically they just matter. God,

1319
01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:15,760
Speaker 1: although I do, I mean Nicole. I think that it

1320
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:20,479
Speaker 1: was really interesting that how like there is no Bectel

1321
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:24,600
Speaker 1: like or Bechtel Wallace test for queer women, that she

1322
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:28,640
Speaker 1: is so defined by her relationship, which I agree is

1323
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:32,240
Speaker 1: very first relationship e and like, you know, just thinking

1324
01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:36,080
Speaker 1: about anyone's first relationship is cringe e U. But that

1325
01:16:36,080 --> 01:16:39,280
Speaker 1: that is like a good like they I'm glad that

1326
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:42,240
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, she also has you know, like she

1327
01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:45,280
Speaker 1: has this aspiration. She will not advocate for herself for it,

1328
01:16:45,600 --> 01:16:48,439
Speaker 1: and she's not very good, but you know she's she's

1329
01:16:48,439 --> 01:16:55,040
Speaker 1: going for it, getting better, she's better. But it's also

1330
01:16:55,120 --> 01:16:57,439
Speaker 1: like the one moment where I really were I was like,

1331
01:16:57,479 --> 01:16:59,519
Speaker 1: I'll funk all this, like when I because because I

1332
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:01,200
Speaker 1: was like, because I in my head, I was like,

1333
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:04,200
Speaker 1: well I did give her photography, I guess, even though

1334
01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:07,960
Speaker 1: she seems only mildly passionate about it. Um Like the

1335
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:10,400
Speaker 1: one moment where it really all came crashing down is

1336
01:17:10,439 --> 01:17:13,080
Speaker 1: when what's his name, her friend Danny is helping her

1337
01:17:13,120 --> 01:17:14,960
Speaker 1: paint and he's like, you really should do a show

1338
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:17,320
Speaker 1: and says it twice, and she's not only like oh no,

1339
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:20,320
Speaker 1: you know I'm not really good. She's like no, and

1340
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:22,840
Speaker 1: you're like, why are you so Like she's like I

1341
01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:25,920
Speaker 1: don't want to know, and you're like, okay, so I

1342
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:30,000
Speaker 1: guess you don't care that it happens off screen, but

1343
01:17:30,080 --> 01:17:33,160
Speaker 1: at some point she does, you know, but it happens.

1344
01:17:35,840 --> 01:17:40,800
Speaker 1: She's also just painting. Did you guys noticed that one?

1345
01:17:42,080 --> 01:17:48,320
Speaker 1: You've never you know, sweetheart, It's so funny to see

1346
01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:53,040
Speaker 1: actor like actors betray their richness on screen and just like,

1347
01:17:53,120 --> 01:17:58,240
Speaker 1: that's what are you doing? Yes? Anyways, I I do

1348
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:01,160
Speaker 1: agree that, like, definitely one care during this movie is

1349
01:18:01,439 --> 01:18:07,360
Speaker 1: more defined by a romantic relationship than Yes, let's write

1350
01:18:07,360 --> 01:18:11,080
Speaker 1: the movie on our nipple scale zero to five nipples.

1351
01:18:11,120 --> 01:18:15,280
Speaker 1: Based on its portrayal and treatment of women, I think

1352
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:18,720
Speaker 1: I'm going to give it a four. It's nice that

1353
01:18:19,080 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 1: you have a story about queer women. They are certainly

1354
01:18:22,160 --> 01:18:26,320
Speaker 1: the focus, they are driving the narrative. The one character,

1355
01:18:26,400 --> 01:18:31,000
Speaker 1: as we've discussed, is not that well defined and characterized,

1356
01:18:32,720 --> 01:18:35,840
Speaker 1: but you know, it's it's still better than most of

1357
01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:39,479
Speaker 1: the female characters we see in any given movie. So

1358
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:43,479
Speaker 1: there's that. Um, it is such a white movie. It

1359
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:47,880
Speaker 1: is extraordinarily white, and it does take place in New

1360
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:51,120
Speaker 1: York for most of it, so there's really not And

1361
01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:55,040
Speaker 1: it's like, I it always drives us anytime New York

1362
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:57,360
Speaker 1: is in a movie and everyone in New York is white,

1363
01:18:57,439 --> 01:18:59,400
Speaker 1: and then people are like it's a buried piece. You're

1364
01:18:59,439 --> 01:19:02,439
Speaker 1: just like, no, you're a director, you're a writer, like

1365
01:19:02,479 --> 01:19:07,160
Speaker 1: you could you can include people. Especially when she's at

1366
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:09,600
Speaker 1: that party at like her friend Phil's Plight. I was

1367
01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:11,960
Speaker 1: watching the people on the street walking by, was like,

1368
01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:14,880
Speaker 1: is one of them not going to be? And I

1369
01:19:14,920 --> 01:19:17,920
Speaker 1: was like, they're the party And then also at the

1370
01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:22,960
Speaker 1: Bloomingdale's type place too, like why not. Yeah, there aren't

1371
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:26,160
Speaker 1: that many crowd scenes, but the ones that are still

1372
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:30,599
Speaker 1: almost entirely white people, there could have been opportunity, Yes, definitely.

1373
01:19:31,560 --> 01:19:35,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it could have been better representation wise,

1374
01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:39,439
Speaker 1: but it's a step in the right direction. You know,

1375
01:19:39,479 --> 01:19:43,000
Speaker 1: we talked about how few mainstream movies there are about

1376
01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:47,120
Speaker 1: queer people, and you know, hopefully this at least in

1377
01:19:47,160 --> 01:19:50,439
Speaker 1: some way helped pave the way for more to be

1378
01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:53,920
Speaker 1: seen down the road, because the more we see, the

1379
01:19:53,960 --> 01:20:00,439
Speaker 1: more it's normalized, and more representation is what we're always striving. Four.

1380
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:03,840
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna say, four nipples, and I will give

1381
01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:08,719
Speaker 1: two to Kate Blanchet. I will give to to Rooney

1382
01:20:08,720 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 1: Mar's performance in another movie. Yeah yeah, all right, great, Wow,

1383
01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:25,559
Speaker 1: So I do truly like her. I'm so on the

1384
01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:27,840
Speaker 1: fence about so many elements. I'm also going to go

1385
01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 1: with four, uh for for many of the same reasons.

1386
01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:33,840
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it is in spite of sort

1387
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:37,080
Speaker 1: of the the stuff that we've unpacked as being either

1388
01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:40,280
Speaker 1: like a little off or just straight up confusing, it

1389
01:20:40,400 --> 01:20:42,479
Speaker 1: is I think, you know, it's generally great that this

1390
01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 1: movie because especially and this is like something we didn't

1391
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:47,719
Speaker 1: we don't really talk about a lot, but the fan

1392
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:50,120
Speaker 1: base of this movie has grown so much since it's

1393
01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:52,920
Speaker 1: been available on Netflix. And I was there was like

1394
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:57,360
Speaker 1: a long piece reported in Them a couple of months

1395
01:20:57,400 --> 01:21:01,519
Speaker 1: ago about the huge young fan base that Carol has

1396
01:21:01,680 --> 01:21:06,519
Speaker 1: built um since being on Netflix. And just not only

1397
01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:11,719
Speaker 1: is like representation important important, but like accessibility uh two,

1398
01:21:11,840 --> 01:21:14,760
Speaker 1: movies like this are so important because this is an

1399
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:18,680
Speaker 1: art house movie and you know, mostly the majority of

1400
01:21:18,720 --> 01:21:21,320
Speaker 1: people at this table did not see it, uh in

1401
01:21:21,320 --> 01:21:25,000
Speaker 1: in small you know, movie theaters. In so the fact

1402
01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:29,320
Speaker 1: that it's available to young people and too. I mean

1403
01:21:29,320 --> 01:21:32,320
Speaker 1: to everyone, Um, if if you have you know, your

1404
01:21:32,320 --> 01:21:36,040
Speaker 1: excess Netflix password is a really cool thing. And and

1405
01:21:36,439 --> 01:21:40,599
Speaker 1: so in spite of its shortcomings, I'm glad that it's uh,

1406
01:21:40,840 --> 01:21:43,720
Speaker 1: it exists, and that it's accessible, and that it, for

1407
01:21:43,760 --> 01:21:47,960
Speaker 1: the most part, you know, was adapted responsibly and by

1408
01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:52,080
Speaker 1: the right people. So I'll go for as well. I'll

1409
01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:54,840
Speaker 1: give to to Kate Blanchett. I'm gonna give my other

1410
01:21:54,920 --> 01:21:59,760
Speaker 1: two to Abby. Oh yeah, yeah, I would say four

1411
01:21:59,880 --> 01:22:05,760
Speaker 1: is well. I mean my my issues with Rooney Mara. No,

1412
01:22:05,920 --> 01:22:10,839
Speaker 1: I'm gonna three. I don't even get name and dropped

1413
01:22:10,840 --> 01:22:14,960
Speaker 1: it because I started thinking about it more and I

1414
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:18,280
Speaker 1: was like, I can't can't. Um, yeah, I mean to

1415
01:22:18,439 --> 01:22:21,600
Speaker 1: definitely the Cate Blanchet always maybe all three no, but

1416
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:24,920
Speaker 1: one to one to Abby. Um. And I agree with

1417
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:26,880
Speaker 1: everything that that you guys have said. I don't even

1418
01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:30,360
Speaker 1: have much more to add. Um. I just simply wish

1419
01:22:30,479 --> 01:22:34,360
Speaker 1: that Rooney Mara's character had been more than a blank

1420
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:38,240
Speaker 1: slate who is imprinted upon by the one person that

1421
01:22:38,280 --> 01:22:43,120
Speaker 1: she's attracted to. So that's all I love this movie.

1422
01:22:43,280 --> 01:22:46,040
Speaker 1: I'm not awesome at Separate. I'm not the best of

1423
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:48,640
Speaker 1: being objective when I really love something, and I recognize

1424
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:50,800
Speaker 1: that about myself. I feel like going into this, I

1425
01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:53,040
Speaker 1: maybe would have said four and a half, but I

1426
01:22:53,120 --> 01:22:55,439
Speaker 1: after hearing all this, I am going to say for

1427
01:22:56,280 --> 01:22:59,599
Speaker 1: I barely had an issue with with Rooney Mara's character.

1428
01:22:59,800 --> 01:23:03,479
Speaker 1: May be reading it in terms of like coming into

1429
01:23:03,479 --> 01:23:05,400
Speaker 1: contact with so many women who are first coming out.

1430
01:23:05,439 --> 01:23:07,479
Speaker 1: I was looking at it through that kind of a

1431
01:23:07,560 --> 01:23:09,479
Speaker 1: lens and being like, oh, I bet if we saw

1432
01:23:09,680 --> 01:23:12,280
Speaker 1: this character a year from now, like she would be

1433
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:14,760
Speaker 1: more filled in. But again, yeah, it's true that that

1434
01:23:14,920 --> 01:23:18,680
Speaker 1: is that's my brain screenwriting and directing and stuff, and

1435
01:23:18,720 --> 01:23:22,040
Speaker 1: I respect that. Um. When I love this movie and

1436
01:23:22,080 --> 01:23:23,680
Speaker 1: I do think it's super hot, and I will not

1437
01:23:23,760 --> 01:23:28,200
Speaker 1: apologize for that, I will give my nipples. I will

1438
01:23:28,200 --> 01:23:31,559
Speaker 1: give one to Cape Blanchet, one to Ruoney Mara, and then,

1439
01:23:31,600 --> 01:23:33,479
Speaker 1: even though she's not in this movie, I'm giving to

1440
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:38,439
Speaker 1: to racial Advice just because she was my girlfriend and

1441
01:23:38,439 --> 01:23:41,280
Speaker 1: I love her just because her presence is leaning over

1442
01:23:43,520 --> 01:23:46,799
Speaker 1: our conversation and I would like to throw her some nipples.

1443
01:23:47,360 --> 01:23:48,760
Speaker 1: We'll have to get the both of you back on

1444
01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:56,439
Speaker 1: to do the favorite. I love like, I love, love,

1445
01:23:56,520 --> 01:24:00,280
Speaker 1: love love love that movie just really quick I think

1446
01:24:00,320 --> 01:24:02,200
Speaker 1: you know and I know that we have all had

1447
01:24:02,400 --> 01:24:06,120
Speaker 1: different takes on Mr Football in this movie. Consider Alfred

1448
01:24:06,160 --> 01:24:11,600
Speaker 1: Molina in that part playing Cape Lunch's husband. I'm horny.

1449
01:24:11,640 --> 01:24:14,040
Speaker 1: Although maybe they just needed them to not have as

1450
01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:16,439
Speaker 1: much chemistry and so that's why Alfred Millina couldn't do it.

1451
01:24:16,720 --> 01:24:20,760
Speaker 1: Probably the chart with everyone sure, how many nipples does

1452
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:24,360
Speaker 1: three D snails have? Oh god, let me look, okay,

1453
01:24:24,400 --> 01:24:30,080
Speaker 1: do zero? Just because there were no nipples besides hers

1454
01:24:30,240 --> 01:24:33,120
Speaker 1: ever in that apartment? Like it feels like with three

1455
01:24:33,160 --> 01:24:37,320
Speaker 1: hundred snails, Like snails do not have nipples. So I

1456
01:24:37,360 --> 01:24:40,800
Speaker 1: can tell you that, anybody, how do you get a

1457
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:43,760
Speaker 1: girl back to you? The keys in the door? You're like, oh,

1458
01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:48,519
Speaker 1: one one thing before I should tell you? The Google

1459
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:52,120
Speaker 1: results for do snails have nipples? Are wild? I don't

1460
01:24:52,160 --> 01:25:00,360
Speaker 1: recommend them. Well, thank you so much. Right on that note, Um,

1461
01:25:00,439 --> 01:25:03,439
Speaker 1: where where can we find you? Online? Plug away? I

1462
01:25:03,479 --> 01:25:06,880
Speaker 1: am at Nicole Patient on Twitter and Instagram. I am

1463
01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:10,479
Speaker 1: at Lauren Flans on Twitter. Um, that's the best Lauren

1464
01:25:10,520 --> 01:25:13,600
Speaker 1: underscore Flans on Instagram. But I'm not on Instagram. Not

1465
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:16,360
Speaker 1: Lauren's a Twitter Twitter person on a Twitter person and

1466
01:25:16,400 --> 01:25:20,560
Speaker 1: our podcast is at Coming Out Pod on Twitter and Instagram.

1467
01:25:21,479 --> 01:25:25,200
Speaker 1: Give it a listen wherever you find podcast. Thank you

1468
01:25:25,200 --> 01:25:28,160
Speaker 1: guys so much for having us all so much fun.

1469
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Speaker 1: Thank you for being here. You can follow us on

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Speaker 1: the social media platforms at Bechdel Cast. We've got our

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Speaker 1: Matreon aka Patreon five bucks a month to bonus episodes

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Speaker 1: Can't go Wrong, uh so. And and this month on

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Speaker 1: the Patreon we're doing uh Knocked Up and Obvious Child

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Speaker 1: speaking to Jake Lacey Heavy Mup on the past. Yes

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Speaker 1: it's pregnancy June on the Matreon inspiring uh so. So.

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Speaker 1: You can check us out there. We have our merch

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Speaker 1: store at t public dot com slash the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 1: We're getting some new designs in there soon, but you

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Speaker 1: can get your Feminism is the Law Now shirt. Also

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Speaker 1: for Pride, queer icon icon, non binary icon there we've

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Speaker 1: got We've got them all. Check out the store, um

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk to you. Yeah, yes, see you later. Bye.

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Speaker 1: By Football