1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Detective, What do you make of it? Here we have 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: yet another body, another skull opened up with clinical precision. 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: What manner of monster are we dealing with here? I 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: don't believe we're dealing with the monster at all, certainly 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: not of the brain gobbling ghoul sort sensationalized in the press. 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: I've studied the ways of ghouls, inspector, and they consume 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: all hard and soft tissues. But they prefer the brain. Yes, yes, 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: as does the common zombie or Mexican vitellius. But look 9 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: at what we see here. Not only was the brain 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: and only the brain targeted, but different regions of the 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: brain have been removed from victim to victim. Not a 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: monster or even a cannibal, then, but a a brain thief. Indeed, 13 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: And look at the profiles of the victims and the 14 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: portions of the brain pilfered from each one of them. 15 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: The vernicus area and the angular gyrus of the noted 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: ling list, the Broca's area of the Soliloquist, the best 17 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: parts of the best brains. Our murderer is building himself 18 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: the perfect brain out of stolen parts. But to what end? 19 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to stot to blow your mind. The production of 20 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio. Hey, you welcome to stuff to blow 21 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 1: your mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 22 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: And this is my second take at pronouncing my own name. 23 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: I'm glad I got it right this time. Today we're 24 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about our stolen brains, our stolen heads. Uh. 25 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,119 Speaker 1: This is a topic that yet again, like another one 26 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: we did recently, This started as uh an artifact episode 27 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: that I was trying to develop, but then it quickly 28 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: became clear to me that this was not a short topic. 29 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: This was a huge topic with all kinds of bizarre 30 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: tangents and and and dark alleys down which to tread. Uh. 31 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: So I'm so excited to to embark on this two 32 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: parter about removing and stealing people's heads and people's brains. 33 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: That's right, This one just keeps growing and expanding, dragging 34 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: in more heads, more brains. That has an insatiable appetite 35 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: this topic. Yeah. One of the so one of the 36 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: original stories that I was looking at that got me 37 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: interested in this was the theft of the Austrian composer 38 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: Franz Joseph Haydn's head in the early nineteenth century and 39 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: that's a story that that we're going to come back 40 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 1: to at the end of this first episode part one here, 41 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: but before that, I think it makes sense to to 42 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: back up and look at the removal of heads in 43 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: the context where it's probably more familiar to everyone, which 44 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: is not in reality but in you know, fiction. Yeah, 45 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: and we promised not to spend too long here because 46 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:53,679 Speaker 1: I know some of you might be saying, look, you 47 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: guys have Friday's Weird House Cinema episodes. Now you can 48 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 1: pour all of your enthusiasm for horror movies into their 49 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: uh and maybe a little less gets used in the 50 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: core episodes. But but there's still some important stuff to 51 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: touch on here, and I think that the fiction sums 52 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: up a lot of what's going on when we think 53 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: about these topics. So yeah, brain and head theft are 54 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: frequent trokes in horror and science fiction, particularly of the 55 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: twentieth century, and a lot of this seems to be 56 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: centered in notions and fears concerning identity and the scientific 57 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: understanding of the brain is the seat of consciousness, explored 58 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: in such thoughtful science fiction films as Tammy and the 59 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: t Rex, one of one of the all time great 60 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: brain theft movies. Yeah, yeah, uh, there there are various 61 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: versions of this, right, you know, because sometimes the brain 62 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: is just stolen. Uh. Sometimes it's kept alive. Sometimes the 63 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: head is kept alive free of the body of a 64 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: you know, jan in the pan situation. Um. Sometimes it's 65 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,119 Speaker 1: a human transplant, putting the head of one person under 66 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: the body of another, sometimes next to the original head 67 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: of the other um you know, the other in in 68 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: a way in their own way. Sometimes a kind of 69 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: a thoughtful attempt to get at something, you know, culturally, 70 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: but other times just kind of this another rumination on 71 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: the bizarre idea of what if my head but different body, 72 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: What if two heads same body? You know. Uh, there's 73 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: just so much about this idea that continues to amaze. 74 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: What if my brain in a dinosaur exactly? Not what 75 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: if my brain in a robot um, you know, etcetera. Uh. So, yeah, 76 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: you'll you'll find so many different versions of this, living 77 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: heads and jars, living brains and jars, head transplants between humans, 78 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: brain transplants into other human beings, and of course brain 79 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: transplants into machines. And there's plenty to talk about here, 80 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: even if we're just dealing with consensual brain and or 81 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: head transplant. But then what if your head or brain 82 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: were stolen? Right, that becomes the extra level of potential horror. 83 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: What do you have some mad science maniac were to 84 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: plug your brain into the body of a hideous monster 85 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: by or a killer robot. Or what if you were 86 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: just reduced to nothing but a head bobbing around in 87 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: a jar, or even even more limiting, a brain just 88 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: shut off in alive inside of some sort of contraption. 89 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: H I mean this is explored to some degree in 90 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: things we've talked about on the show before. For example, 91 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: the the Thought Experiments Lash short story where Am I 92 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: by Daniel Dennett, which is all about brains being removed, 93 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: and that's ultimately trying to get at the question of 94 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: what is the seat of consciousness and is it located 95 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: in a place uh, you know, given various you know, 96 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: constraints and and and thought experiments about like how brains 97 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: could be replicated with machinery. But but also there are 98 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: I guess, much less technical explorations of the subject where 99 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: it's just kind of like, uh, you know, the Futurama 100 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: model where you're just preserving ahead or preserving a brain 101 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: to supposedly keep the keep the consciousness alive after the 102 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: body dies or after the body is superseded by some 103 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 1: period technology. I think both of us really enjoy um. 104 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: The character Kane from RoboCop two a noon in brain 105 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: in a jar, uh, powering a mechanized death machine. Yeah, 106 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: tom noonan uh. And he's just like pain embodied controlling 107 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: a killer robot, which is a brilliant idea. There's even 108 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: like a drug insertion because he's he was he's addicted 109 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 1: to some sort of super drug, right. Oh yeah, the 110 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: the drug called nuke. Yeah. So Robo Cup two is amazing. Um, 111 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 1: there's a there's actually a really excellent Star Wars tie 112 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: in here as well. I mean, you have a lot 113 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: of cybernetic stuff going on in Star Wars, but you 114 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: have this one creature. I don't know if you remember it, Joe, 115 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: because it kind of just walks around in the background 116 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: briefly in Return of the Jedi. But it looks like 117 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: a mechanical spider. And then it has this glass looking 118 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 1: container or sphere hanging underneath it, and inside there's fluid 119 00:06:57,800 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: and what appears to be a brain of some sort. 120 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: I don't think I made the brain connection when I 121 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 1: watched for Turning the Jedi as a kid, but just 122 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: looked like a big mechanical spider. I think the brain 123 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: things explored more in I don't know what you call it, 124 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: the the supplementary Star Wars universe material, the encyclopedias and 125 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: all that. Yeah, I remember reading. I think there's a 126 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: whole story about them entales from Java's Palace, or at 127 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: least it's a story that concerns them to some degree. 128 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: But we are told in in other forms that this 129 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: these are the remains of the Bomar monks. Um. And 130 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna read this quick passage from Wikipedia. UM. 131 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: It says this follows quote. The Bomer Order, which consisted 132 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: of Bomar monks, was a religious order that believed in 133 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: isolating themselves from all physical sensation to enhance the power 134 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: of their minds. To that aim, in enlightened monks had 135 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: their brains transplanted into nutrient filled jars. Whenever they wanted 136 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: to move, those bottled brains used spider like droid walkers. 137 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: I can just imagine the purer hierarchy. It's like, oh, 138 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: you're you're gonna walk around in your spider today instead 139 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: of just sitting there and a jar doing nothing. Okay, Well, 140 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: I mean sometimes you have to have your nutrient fluid 141 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: switched out, right. I'm guessing there's like win me one 142 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: machine in job As Palace that does that, and you've 143 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: gotta get there early. I mean, I guess if you're 144 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: addicted to the pleasures of the flesh. So that's just 145 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: that's just a brief glance at some of the many, 146 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: many variations of this you'll find in sci fi and 147 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: horror because we can't get enough of it, because at 148 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: the heart of it, there are so there are several 149 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: different um you know, enigmas and conundrums and paradoxes that 150 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: that emerge, you know, because it's dealing with what we 151 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: are and who we are and just sort of that 152 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: some of the mysteries that that seem to revolve around 153 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 1: are are fleshly self and some of the more supernatural 154 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: ideas about what we are, and of course some of 155 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: the you know, the mysteries of consciousness itself. Yeah, and 156 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: that's the true when when you get into mysteries, one 157 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: of the great things to wonder is um as far 158 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: as consciousness and its relationship to different types of tissue, 159 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: in the body, nervous system, tissue in the brain versus 160 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: other parts of the body. You always kind of wonder, um, 161 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: what did ancient people know, you know, or what did 162 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: they suspect before we had modern neuroscience and anatomy and uh, 163 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: and there is something interesting you can observe. Is not 164 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: necessarily going to be theft, like we're talking about it 165 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: in a lot of our examples, though in some cases 166 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: it probably is. But there are interesting cases you can 167 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: observe from the ancient world and from ancient religion where 168 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: sometimes the head or the brain were treated differently than 169 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: some other parts of the body were, which indicated at 170 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: least something some interesting belief. Yeah, yeah, this is this 171 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 1: gets really fascinating. Now. First of all, we should stress 172 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: that we modern humans are probably just mostly focused on 173 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: the idea of the brain being the seat of the 174 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: mind and the self, because we also paradoxically carry along 175 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: other ideas with us. You know, there's so many just 176 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: parts of our language and just the way think about 177 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: ourselves that we may talk talk about feeling something with 178 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 1: our heart, and when we do that, we may on 179 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: some level position our our our center of being and 180 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: position our mind in the middle of our torso uh 181 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: my gut feeling, yeah, yeah, your gut feeling, etcetera. And 182 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: you can take this even further, of course, getting into 183 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: various um uh you know, supernatural and religious ideas about 184 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: say various chakras and energy points in the body, um, 185 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 1: you know, and the and we can carry this around 186 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,199 Speaker 1: with us and also carry around a science more or 187 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: less scientific understanding of the brain, um, you know, and 188 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: we can we can believe in both. We can we 189 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: can you know, dip out of both steamer trays as 190 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,599 Speaker 1: it suits us. Yeah, obviously people do. I mean like that, 191 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people probably believe in some type of 192 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: supernatural mind in one way or another. But then also 193 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: like you would consult a neurologist if you needed to, 194 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: right and and you know, I'm I'm always a kind 195 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: of two minds on all of this because on one hand, 196 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: you know, we we the brain is is the the 197 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: the author of of all these ideas, you know, I mean, 198 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: it is the center of our being. And we see that, 199 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: um you know, and that that bears out anytime there's 200 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: a brain injury, etcetera. But then also we're not just 201 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: the brain. We're also the body, and while you know, 202 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: you might be stretching it to say that you're you know, 203 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: you're thinking something or feeling something with your heart in 204 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: the same way that you would with your mind. You know, 205 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: there is this um we are more than just the brain, 206 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: we are this entire organism. Yeah, that's something that I 207 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: think is often overlooked in these like so the Beaumar 208 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: monks or whatever, the brain in a jar with a 209 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: spider body, and you think like, well, that's just pure 210 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: mental existence, you know, as if you you'll just live 211 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: forever in this mechanical set up and you can have 212 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: your your pure mind continue young to do whatever it does, 213 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: meditation or whatever. But I think that might be really 214 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: underappreciating how much your mental life would be changed if 215 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: you were only your brain and did not have the 216 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: rest of your body for the brain to interact with. Yeah, 217 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: that's why General Grievous got to bring his guts with him, 218 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, he's not just a brain. He's also 219 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: eyeballs and guts in there so well, I mean, and 220 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: there's even literal feedback. I mean, in some ways, the 221 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 1: brain is influenced, for example, by hormones that are secreted 222 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: by organs in other parts of the body. Absolutely, uh. 223 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 1: In thinking about what ancient people's thought, though, it's it's 224 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: impossible to get into this discussion without, of course touching 225 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: on the ancient Egyptians, because, as in many of you 226 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,839 Speaker 1: are probably already thinking about, they famously removed and discarded 227 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: the brain, dering and balming, while taking great care to 228 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: store various other organs economic jars. Yet at the same time, 229 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: the ancient Egyptians are responsible for the oldest written record 230 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: using the word brain. I mean, it wasn't brain. You 231 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: know obviously that it was the higheroglyphics for brain aren't known. 232 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: We see it in a sevent BC text that was 233 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: in turn apparently based on texts that go back to 234 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 1: about three thousand BC. Uh. This is the so called 235 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: Edwin Smith's Surgical Papyrus, named for the American Egyptologists who 236 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: discovered it. Okay, so we're looking at it now. The 237 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: the hieroglyphic word form that meant the brain. The oregan 238 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: it's like a bird, and then something that looks maybe 239 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: like a feather or a knife, and then like a 240 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: hook shaped thing, and then what looks like maybe a 241 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: b or a fly. Yeah, yeah, I guess the hook. 242 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,719 Speaker 1: I have no idea, but the hook thing is very suggestive, 243 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: of course, uh, not being entirely sure what this this 244 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: these hieroglyphics um individually, these parts of it mean because 245 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: of where we think about the hook that is used 246 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: to carefully remove the brain um tissue during embalming um, 247 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: which was a delicate procedure because you had to do 248 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: it apparently as well without you had to take care 249 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: not to damage the facial features during the removal. And 250 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:05,719 Speaker 1: and one thing that's important to realize here is that 251 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: the Egyptians didn't necessarily think the brain was garbage or anything, 252 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 1: but it was one of the first organs to go foul. 253 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: Part of their practice was to first remove the organs 254 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: that decayed rapidly, and this certainly included the brain. This 255 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: is going to tie directly into an account from the 256 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: early nineteenth century that we're going to talk about later 257 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: in the episode, about a very prominent and fascinating case 258 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: of head theft. All right, UM, just briefly some other 259 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: tidbits about our history of understanding the brain. In the 260 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: fourth century BC, Aristotle considered the brain to be a 261 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: secondary organ that cooled the heart, a place where the 262 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: spirit could circulate. The heart was the center of thought, 263 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: though now in the second century, ce Galen concluded that 264 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: the brain was the seat of the animal soul uh, 265 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: one of three souls in the body. But this was 266 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: based in part on his observations of the efects of 267 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: brain injuries on mental activity. So again, even if you 268 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: even if you you you were really clinging to some 269 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: idea that uh, that thought and being is tied up 270 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: in the torso you know, after a while, it becomes 271 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: clear that when things happen to the head um, it 272 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: can it can drastically affect how we think and how 273 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: we uh we process. Yeah, that seems like that would 274 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: have probably been one of the earliest ways that people 275 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: could deduce the important role of the brain. Not just 276 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: because you could make the argument that sometimes it's somehow 277 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: kind of feels like thought is taking place in the head. 278 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: Obviously it didn't always feel like that to everybody. Some 279 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: people must have thought it felt like it was happening 280 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: somewhere else. But but yeah, you noticed that you hit 281 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: somebody in the head. It is much more likely to 282 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: have a complex and profound effects on how they think 283 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: and how they feel. Than hitting them in any other 284 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: part of the body. Yeah, it's interesting. How again, it's 285 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: an unavoidable in our language. Right, So we talked about 286 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: like putting our thinking cap on, and you know, we're 287 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: just so many times like we're thinking really hard. We 288 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: might do something involving our head, we might touch our head. 289 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: But if you were living in a culture that was 290 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: more based in an idea that would that thinking was 291 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: based in the chest, would you put your I don't know, 292 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: you're you're thinking brazier on? Would you would you sort 293 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: of like hold your chest a little bit as you 294 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: as you think? I don't know. Yeah, And I also 295 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: wonder what are the limits to that? Like is is 296 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: that is it possible that if you just had the 297 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: right cultural ideas fed into you as you were growing up, 298 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: that it would literally feel to you like you were 299 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: thinking with your feet or thinking with your knees or something, 300 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: or is there a sort of limited range of where 301 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: it can feel like thinking is happening. I don't know. 302 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: This is fascinating. I hadn't really thought about all this before. 303 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: But maybe there's some papers out there that get into 304 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: it that would it would be interesting to read about. Yeah, 305 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: but any your right. From here, we gradually built up 306 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: an improved understanding of how the brain function, though much 307 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: remained unknown for a considerable amount of time, leading to 308 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,479 Speaker 1: what I've seen referred to as a quote cultural anatomy 309 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: of the brain pane that doesn't necessarily match up with 310 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: the neurological reality. Yeah, that's interesting, Thank you, Thank you. 311 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: Now there's one example from ancient history I guess actually 312 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: this would be prehistory, uh, of how heads were treated 313 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: in a way that was somewhat different than how the 314 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: rest of the body was treated. And this comes from 315 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: the ancient Neolithic or Chalcolithic Neolithic settlement known as Chattel 316 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: hu Yok from Turkey. That's a place in southern Turkey 317 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: that was thousands of years BC. Did did you have 318 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: the date on that? Um? I I read that it 319 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: thrived back in seven thousand BC. Yeah, I mean it 320 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: was around for a while, but I think that was 321 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: like the period of its the height of its population 322 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: and power, and so it's one of the earliest large 323 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: human settlements that we have evidence of sustained habitation at. 324 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: There were all of these houses that were a sort 325 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: of built right next to each other. They were built 326 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: up and you would enter them through the roof. It 327 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: was like a grid of sort of cubicle houses. You'd 328 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: go in through the roof, and there are these living 329 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: spaces that archaeologists can still explore today. And it's fascinating 330 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: to try to put together the culture of the people 331 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: who lived at Chattahoyuk because one of the things observed 332 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: there is sometimes, uh, sometimes there would be mortuary practices 333 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: that would involve apparently incorporating the dead bodies of friends 334 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: and family members into like the furniture, just into stuff 335 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: inside the house where the people were living, so the 336 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: body of a dead relative might be buried underneath the 337 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: bed where you sleep. But one of the other really 338 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: interesting things sometimes observed there is the removal of heads 339 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: from dead bodies I presumably family members, where the head 340 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: would be taken off and uh and then covered in 341 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: some kind of plaster and just like kept in the house. Yeah, 342 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: it's it's really fascinating because in this we we get into, 343 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: you know, you sort of have to strip away sort 344 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: of your modern funerary customs and ideas about what is 345 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: what is proper to do with the with the body 346 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: of the deceased, etcetera. And you if you try and 347 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: sort of put yourself in this this different mindset and imagine, like, 348 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: how do we relate to the bodies that no longer 349 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: have life in them? You know what what is the 350 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: what is the skull of the dead? Uh? Now that 351 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: they have you know that, now that the individual has 352 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: passed on, you know, you you get into this sort 353 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: of like base area. Then you you can build up 354 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: from there and imagine how some of these these customs 355 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: could have taken root. Yeah, and it it definitely signals 356 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: like how variable and culturally determined our feelings about the 357 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 1: treatment of dead bodies are. Because I think now and 358 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: it's probably very somewhat to culture even today, but in 359 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: most of the cultures were familiar with like if you 360 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,719 Speaker 1: were to take Grandma's dead body and like cut her 361 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: head off and cover it with plaster and put it 362 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 1: on a desk, that would widely be seen as like 363 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: disrespectful in some way, But here it's the exact opposite. 364 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: It seems to suggest that this is a way of 365 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: revering the dead, and in some way it has some 366 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: kind of religious significance or ritual use. Yeah, Like nowadays 367 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: you sat down and you watch the Texas chainsaw mask 368 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: you and you say this is not right, this family 369 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: of texts and cannibals are are are not being respectful 370 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: to the dead. But you can make a case for 371 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: most of the things they're doing and say, no, they're 372 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: being very respectful. Um to to a to a to 373 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: a point. I'm only going to defend the sawyers so much. 374 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 1: But um but but now there's a lot to consider, like, 375 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, what happens to the body when it dies? 376 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 1: Wand or what do we do to the body when 377 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: it dies? And how we approach these different views of death, 378 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: like they have a huge impact on not only how 379 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 1: we we treat the bodies of the dead, but then 380 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: also like how we think about death itself. Yeah, and 381 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: so we're gonna be focusing in these episodes on some 382 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 1: cases of brains and heads being taken off of bodies 383 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: um or or being stolen in one way or another 384 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: without the consent of the person involved. But there we 385 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: should at least know that there are plenty of cases 386 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: where heads are removed, brains are removed and this was 387 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: according to the wishes of the person from whose body 388 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: they're being taken, right, Yeah, so a few I think 389 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:35,479 Speaker 1: mostly if not completely, consentually preserved brains, worth mentioning, uh, 390 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: one of one of the big ones that that probably 391 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: a lot of people were thinking of is is Broken's brain. Um. 392 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons, of course, is that Carl 393 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: Sagan has a whole book titled Broker's Brain, because one 394 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: of the essays in it deals with it specifically. And 395 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: I'll get back to that in just a second. But 396 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: Paul Broco lived through eighteen eighty. He was a French 397 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: surgeon and neurologist who played a major role in the 398 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: mid nineteen in mid nineteenth century medicine, and was the 399 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 1: founder of modern brain surgery. He also supported some extremely 400 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: prejudiced ideas, but his work with the brain itself was 401 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: expressed it was it was extremely important. As such, he 402 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: worked a lot with human brains, and many of the 403 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: preserved brains that he worked with can still be found 404 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: at the Pierre and Marie Curry University in Paris, and 405 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: that potentially includes Brocco's own brain. The museum has apparently 406 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 1: denied that it can be found there, but there are 407 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: accounts that say that his brain ended up on a 408 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: shelf alongside the others and Carl Sagan in the book 409 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 1: Brokeer's Brain. In the the the chapter or essay dealing 410 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: with this, he discusses holding the jar and that allegedly 411 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: contained it, saying, quote, it was Broca himself whose brain 412 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: I was cradling, who had established the macab collection I 413 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: had been contemplating, and from their second goes on to 414 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: question just how much of who Coroco was is still 415 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: in there? You know, is the physical brain in the jar? 416 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: Is that him? Is this some remnant of him? It's 417 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: it's a wonderful, wonderful section of the book that you 418 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 1: should you should read, but it's um uh, probably one 419 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 1: of the more famous preserved or allegedly preserved brains. Yeah, 420 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: and yeah, that raises really interesting questions, like in a way, 421 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: is it possible even to think about the person as 422 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: an object or as a person something more like a process? Yeah, 423 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: and then also like the whole seeming mystery about whether 424 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: there's there's an actual, uh specimen that is broke his brain, 425 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: it does also bring up the question, you know, once 426 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: the brain is removed, how do you tell whose it was? 427 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: Especially when you're dealing with an old brain like this, 428 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: you know, it's not like you can just hook it up, 429 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: fire it up and see what memories are in there, etcetera. Right, 430 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: But of course, so there's a question about this one. 431 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: But there are examples of people who were just like, yep, 432 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: you know, you use my brain, do something with it. Yeah. 433 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: Charles Babbage is a great exam pull of this, who 434 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 1: have through eight seventy one, the father of the computer, 435 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: as he's sometimes known, he donated his brain to science 436 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: and today you can see it, uh in two halfs, 437 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: one side of it at London Science Museum and the 438 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: other at the Hunterian Museum in the Royal College of Surgeons. 439 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: Wait a minute, did a Lovelace also have her brain 440 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: preserved or just Babbage? It would be great if you 441 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: could see him. I did not run across her brain, 442 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 1: but I guess it would be great to see him 443 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: side by side I hooked up to the same computer. 444 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 1: It's it's interesting how um it is presented into how 445 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much, so many directions you could 446 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: go there with that, right, um, but yeah, you go 447 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: to one place to see one hemisphere and the other 448 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: to see the other hemisphere. Um. I wonder if I 449 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: mean when you look at those hemispheres, do you, is 450 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: there a feeling like this is wrong. They should be reunited, 451 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: the brain should be It's okay to preserve a brain 452 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: and display it, but it should be displayed as a whole, 453 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: complete piece. But I don't know, maybe not now as 454 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: far as famous people go, quote, quite a few athletes 455 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: have pledged their brain to science and an effort to 456 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: better understand concussions, you know. And then a lot of 457 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: people just in general donate their bodies and or their 458 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: organs to science. Um, and so a lot of brain 459 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: study continues in this in this manner, by the way, 460 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: by most all accounts, and certainly all accounts that matter, 461 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: we should point out that Walt Disney did not have 462 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: his body, brain, or head frozen following his death. Oh 463 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: that's a popular myth, and it is, yeah, and I 464 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: think I was reading about Apparently it's largely based on 465 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: the fact that he was interested in the topic at 466 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: some point and and in general was known to be 467 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: interested in in in scientific topics, and therefore it just 468 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: kind of carried away, like what you know about Disney. 469 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: You're like, oh, well, it seems like something he would do. 470 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: He did it. It's just like, oh, he's weird. Enough. 471 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: So I guess if we're in in the modern era 472 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: for for now and talking about brains that were actually 473 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: straight up stolen. Probably the most famous brain theft uh 474 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: in the modern world, happened to the body of Albert Einstein, 475 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: And I guess we'll maybe come back and talk about 476 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: that more later as we go on. But he is 477 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: by no means the only one I want to back 478 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 1: up and tell a story from the early eighteen hundreds 479 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: about the famous composer Joseph Haydn uh. And so a 480 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: couple of sources I was looking at here. One is 481 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 1: a book by Francis Larson published called Severed, A History 482 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 1: of Heads Lost and Heads Found. And the part of 483 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: this that I was reading is just wonderful, So I 484 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: might have to go back and read this entire book 485 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,199 Speaker 1: at some point, um. But the other is just a 486 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 1: biography of Hayden called Hayden A Creative Life in Music 487 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: by Carl Geyringer and Irene gey Ringer from University of 488 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: California Press in nineteen two. And so just a brief 489 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: background on on Franz Joseph Hayden, also just known as 490 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: Joseph Hayden. He was a renowned classical composer from Austria 491 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: who lived from seventeen thirty two until eighteen o nine. 492 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 1: It was very influential. I think he was sort of 493 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,959 Speaker 1: a mentor figure to some other later composers like Mozart. 494 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: And probably the fact that most people know about him today, 495 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,719 Speaker 1: or at least the one that I remember from school, 496 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: is that he was the composer of what's known as 497 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: the Surprise Symphony. It's a composition that is very kind 498 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: of dreamy and sleepy and then has the sudden extremely 499 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: loud chords that will almost like make you pee yourself, 500 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: like they will wake you up if you are falling 501 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: asleep at the at the on orchestra night. I wonder 502 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: if we can play some some public domain selections of 503 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: Hyden music while I'm telling the story of how his 504 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: head was hacked off and stolen. Okay, So the story 505 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,479 Speaker 1: of Hyden around the time of his death, especially as 506 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: told in the I Ringer book, here is what I'm 507 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: starting with. So for a long time, Hayden was the 508 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: court musician of a Hungarian noble family called the ester 509 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: Hasy family. So I guess you can imagine something kind 510 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 1: of like if you've seen the movie Amadeus, you know 511 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: the roles Salieri plays in the Austrian Emperor's court in 512 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 1: that movie. He's the the court composer, the court musician, 513 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: kind of there to to do musical work for and 514 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: flatter this rich family, except, of course, this would not 515 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: have been the emperor. This was just one particular noble house, 516 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: the ester Hazy line, and Hayden died in eighteen o nine. 517 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: He died in Vienna, I think actually while Vienna was 518 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: being occupied by Napoleon's troops, so there was a war 519 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: zone situation happening, uh, and his body was not taken 520 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: back to this uh, this remote castle where the ester 521 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: Hazy family lived, because I think I think it had 522 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: something to do with the war situations. Why he was 523 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: kept in Vienna near where his house or apartment was, 524 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: and he was buried in a local cemetery known as 525 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: the hun Storm Cemetery. And that same year the prince 526 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: of the ester Hassie line, I think it was Nicolaus 527 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: ester Hasie, he put in an application to have Hayden's 528 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: body dug up from the cemetery and transferred to Eisenstadt, 529 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: which was the seat of the ester Hazie house. And 530 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: permission for the disinterment was granted, but ester Hazi never 531 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: actually did it. He got permission, but then he just 532 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: kind of forgot about it, and Hayden stayed there. Hayden's 533 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: tomb stayed as it was. But finally, in eighteen twenty, 534 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: Ester Hazy, to quote from the Gey Wringer book quote, 535 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: was reminded of his obligations by Adolphus Frederick, Duke of Cambridge. 536 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: This distinguished visitor observed after attending a galla performance of 537 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: the Creation, which was an oratorio of Hayden's given in 538 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: his honor at Eisenstadt. Quote, how fortunate was the man 539 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: who employed this Hayden in his lifetime him and now 540 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: possesses his mortal remains, Which that moment, I'm just imagining that. 541 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: Like Prince ester Hazzy must have been like, oh yeah, yeah, that. 542 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: But apparently he did not correct his guest though. Immediately 543 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: after this he gave orders to have the body exhumed 544 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: from the cemetery in Vienna and brought over to Eisenstat 545 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: and re entombed at a church there near the castle. 546 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: The church was called berg Kircha, which was where Hayden 547 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: had often performed some of the masses that he wrote 548 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: for the ester Hazy family. Uh So the order goes through, 549 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: and but then the guy Ringers right quote. When the 550 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: coffin was open for identification, the horrified officials found no 551 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: head on the body, but only the wig. And this 552 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: seems especially bad because, like it would be harder for 553 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,479 Speaker 1: Esther Hassey at this point to pretend that he just 554 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: had Hayden's body where it was supposed to be all along. 555 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: It kind of reminds me that situation where like somebody 556 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: gives you a gift, like an appliance that you don't 557 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: really want, and you never opened and they keep asking 558 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: you if you like it. You're like, yeah, we use 559 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: it all the time. It's great. And then they're going 560 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: to come over to your house and you're like, hey, 561 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: let's use that blender whatever it was. And then you 562 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: finally open it and discover that it's missing a piece 563 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: or it's broken or something. But so obviously Prince ester 564 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,719 Speaker 1: Hassy was not amused that Hayden's head had been stolen. 565 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: He was really mad, and he made inquiries about the 566 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: missing head, and soon the mystery was solved. It turned 567 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: out it was sort of an inside job. The culprits 568 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: who stole the head were Hayden's friend, apparently not a 569 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: super close friend, but they knew each other, a friend 570 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: of Hyden's named Joseph Carl Rosenbaum who had been employed 571 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: by the Ester Hassey family, and then another guy named 572 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: Johann Napomuk Peter who was the administrator of a penitentiary 573 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: somewhere in Austria. So why would these guys, including a 574 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,960 Speaker 1: former end of Haydn's, dig up his grave, steal his head, 575 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: and then cover everything back up. Well, the answer is 576 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: that they were amateur phrenologists. And I'll come back to 577 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: the subject in more detail in in a few minutes, 578 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: And I guess throughout a couple of both of these episodes, 579 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: But the short explanation of what's going on here is 580 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: that they were devotees of the then popular pseudo science 581 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: of phrenology, and they were fans of its leading proponent 582 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: at this time and place, the German anatomist friends Joseph Gall, 583 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: who lived seventeen fifty eight eight. And yes, I did 584 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: also notice that friends Joseph Gall has the same first 585 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: and middle name is Hayden. I don't know if there's 586 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: any reason for that. Maybe a bunch of boys were 587 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: named after a king or something at this time. I 588 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: don't know if you have any insights on the on 589 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: the friends Joseph's. Maybe it's just a total coincidence. Yeah, 590 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Off the top of my head, I 591 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: don't know any I don't know any friends Joseph's. But 592 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: so they these two guys, Rosenbaum and Peter, wanted Hayden's 593 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: head because they wanted to conduct a pseudo scientific dissection 594 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: of the skull to determine its characteristics according to phrenological theory, 595 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: to see if you could read his musical genius in 596 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: the shape of his skull. So I'll come back to 597 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: that aspect in a bit. But together these guys bribed 598 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: a grave digger in the Vienna cemetery to dig up 599 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: Hyden a few days after his funeral, hack off his 600 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: head and deliver it to them quote to protect it 601 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: from desecration. Um. So, according to to Larsen, the grave 602 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: digger did this. It was a few nights after the burial. 603 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: He chopped off the head, wrapped it up in some rags, 604 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 1: and then handed it off to Rosenbaum. And Rosenbaum had 605 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: a carriage waiting nearby. He was on the way taking 606 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: the head to the carriage, but he was so curious 607 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: to see it that he peeled back the rags uh 608 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: to take a peek. But this was June, and Hayden 609 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: had been dead for while at this point, and the 610 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: body was already beginning to rot. And apparently Rosenbaum was 611 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: so overwhelmed by the sight and the smell that he 612 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: just vomited in the cemetery, but then got right back 613 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: to business. So he got into the carriage, went straight 614 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: to Vienna Hospital, where the skull was de fleshed and 615 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,280 Speaker 1: the brain was removed from its casing. And Rosenbaum described 616 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: the scene later in his own writing. This is quoted 617 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: in Larsen quote. The site made a lifelong impression on me. 618 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 1: The dissection lasted for one hour. The brain, which was 619 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: of large proportions, stank the most terribly of all. I 620 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: endured it to the end. And that's what I was 621 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: thinking of when you mentioned earlier that the brain, according 622 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: to the Egyptians, at least you know, was one of 623 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: the earliest parts of the body to spoil and smell bad, 624 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: which might have had something to do with the process 625 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: for its early removal. Yeah, well I've I've read this 626 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: other places as well. In fact, tomorrow's episode of The 627 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: Artifact will touch on how quickly a brain will rot. Well, 628 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: apparently Rosenbaumb noticed like he could, despite the fact that 629 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: they had a whole head there. He was like, the 630 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: brain was the worst. But anyway, at the Vienna hospital 631 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 1: here the skin muscle in the brain were burned in 632 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: the furnace, and then the skull was soaked in lime 633 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: to clean the bones so it could be measured for 634 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: the phrenology purposes. And this soaking would take a while, 635 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: So while that was going on, Rosenbaum went back home 636 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: and he and Peter at some point designed a case 637 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 1: with which to hold the skull the guy Ringers right quote. 638 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: Peter had a black wooden box made with a golden 639 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: lyre at the top and glass windows in it. The 640 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: skull was placed on a white silk cushion trimmed with black, 641 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 1: which reminds me very much of some of the displays 642 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: I've seen of supposedly incorruptible saints bodies and the relics 643 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: of saints and old Catholic and Orthodox museums or not 644 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: museums cathedrals. Yeah, they didn't just stick it on the 645 00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: table and put a candle on top of it or 646 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 1: let a raven perch on it. You know, they did 647 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: it upright. Yeah, you get a nice glass box. But 648 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 1: this one here has a golden lyre. And Larson actually 649 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: has a very wonderful passage about this that I wanted 650 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: to quote. She calls attention to the fact that this 651 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: box was ornamented with a golden liar, and she asks 652 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: if this might have been intended as a reference to 653 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,320 Speaker 1: the Greek god Orpheus. So here I'm quoting from larsen 654 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: whose music carried him safely into the underworld to save 655 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: his wife Eurydicy. Rosenbaum's own dark and earthy mission had 656 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: been driven by his passion for music and his admiration 657 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: of Haydn as a composer. He too, had retrieved his 658 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: love from the rod of the nether world. If the 659 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: liar did refer to Orpheus, there may have been other 660 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: symbolic residences at work as well. In one version of 661 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,720 Speaker 1: the myth, Orpheus lost his own head when his body 662 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: was ripped apart and thrown into the sea by the 663 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: women of Thrace, and Macedonia. Later, Orpheus's head was found 664 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 1: floating in the river Mela's, fresh and vigorous and still 665 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,400 Speaker 1: singing mournfully. The place where it was buried became a 666 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: shrine and an oracle for pilgrims. And that is interesting 667 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,479 Speaker 1: to me because within the special box, Hydn's severed head 668 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: would become kind of like a shrine within Rosenbaum's house. 669 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: It's so weird to to to think about this in 670 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: terms of patrons and artists, you know, um, like like 671 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 1: what if what I have today on Patreon or or 672 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: some sort of a kickstarter like that was a tier level, 673 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: Like if you support me, then you can cut off 674 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,240 Speaker 1: my head when I'm dead and run off with my skull, 675 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: or you will be you will be tasked with keeping 676 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: my body and protecting it. That sort of thing. The 677 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 1: Platinum Club membership. Yeah yeah, but to a certain extence, 678 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: like at least a metaphorical level. Um, you know, a 679 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: lot of this does kind of weirdly match up with 680 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: some of our attitudes about celebrity you know, and celebrities 681 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: and creators you know, and how we how we treat 682 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: them and uh regard them after their death, you know, 683 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: like literally turning turning their their their deaths into and 684 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 1: sometimes their places of burial into the holy shrines, and 685 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: like you're invoking this whole pseudo scientific field to come 686 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: up with a physical explanation for their supposedly superhuman genius. Um. Anyway, 687 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: so to come back to the story, years go by, 688 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,240 Speaker 1: we already narrated the intervening events, remember, so princester Hazy 689 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: at some point he's reminded like, oh, yeah, Hyden's body, 690 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 1: Oh I need yeah, that should be here. Uh So, 691 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,879 Speaker 1: so back to the investigation, because they discovered no head, 692 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:43,280 Speaker 1: only a wig in the in the coffin, and um, 693 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: so they had Hyden's body moved to the castle at Eisenstock, 694 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: where the Prince wanted it. But the Prince was furious 695 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: because there was no head, and he had them investigate, 696 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: and eventually, somehow it was figured out that Peter and 697 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 1: Rosenbaum had been you know, the ones implicated here, that 698 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: they would have been the people who took the head. 699 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,439 Speaker 1: And so the police went to interrogate Peter, who said 700 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,879 Speaker 1: that he had given the head to Rosenbaum, and then 701 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: the investigators went to Rosenbaum's house and they searched for 702 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: the skull, but they didn't find it. Quote since Rosenbaum's wife, 703 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: the opera singer Teresa Gossman, hid the skull in her 704 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: straw mattress and lay down on the bed. And then 705 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: to to finish up the story, the guy ringers right. Quote. 706 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,800 Speaker 1: The prince now tried bribery, and his emissary promised Rosenbaum 707 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: a large sum if he would deliver the skull, whereupon 708 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: the skull of an old man was handed to the 709 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: prince and buried with Hyden's body. Uh not unnaturally, Prince 710 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: Princess Okay, so fake skull handed off for a bribe. 711 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,800 Speaker 1: Not unnaturally, Prince esther Hazy did not keep his promise 712 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: of a reward, But neither had the wary ex secretary 713 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: acted honestly since he had not delivered the right skull. 714 00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 1: So it's a double double cross. But I wonder if 715 00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 1: they both leave happy with that. You know, it's like, 716 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,240 Speaker 1: all right, I've got a skull can literally somebody's skull. 717 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 1: It might not have the right kind of musical genius bump, 718 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 1: but uh, yeah, somebody's skull is in there. And but 719 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: the guy did not get his money. Uh. And then 720 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,720 Speaker 1: finally they say on his deathbed, Rosenbaum gave Hyden Skull 721 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 1: to his collaborator, to Peter and quote made him promise 722 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 1: to leave it in his will to the Museum of 723 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,840 Speaker 1: guessel Shoft dear music Freund in Vienna, the owner of 724 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,919 Speaker 1: a great number of valuable Hyden relics. So Hyden Skull 725 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,759 Speaker 1: stayed there from until nineteen fifty four, and then eventually 726 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: there was a there was a mausoleum built in berg 727 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,439 Speaker 1: Church all that that church in uh in Nissenstock where 728 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: the body was supposed to be. Eventually it was in 729 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four that the skull was finally reunited with 730 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,399 Speaker 1: the rest of the body. But I think at least 731 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,400 Speaker 1: for a while, maybe maybe permanently after that, but at 732 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: least for a while there were two skulls in the 733 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,360 Speaker 1: grave because they also had the original fake decoy skull 734 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: that had been interred with the body and the wig. 735 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:18,360 Speaker 1: He had a friendly roommate, right exactly, thank you, thank you. 736 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: But this brings me back to to the pseudoscience underlying 737 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: uh this, this head theft mission here. Why did Rosenbaum 738 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: and Peter steel the head again? They were enthusiastic amateur 739 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:35,240 Speaker 1: phrenologists they were students of the German anatomist friends Joseph Gall, 740 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 1: who again he's credited with pioneering the now discredited field 741 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 1: of phrenology. Now, Gall apparently made some legitimate contributions to 742 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: the development of neuroscience and neuro anatomy, but I think 743 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,799 Speaker 1: whatever these legitimate contributions where they are now overshadowed in 744 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 1: his legacy by the association with phrenology, which is just 745 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: one of the most awful and rightfully infamous pseudosciences in 746 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: human history. And we can explain more about phrenology across 747 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 1: this couple of episodes, but the short version is that 748 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: phrenologists incorrectly believed that you could make accurate inferences about 749 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: human mental traits like uh like personality traits, moral characteristics, 750 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,959 Speaker 1: and intellectual aptitudes by measuring the shape and the contours 751 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:27,359 Speaker 1: of people's skulls, particularly bumps on the skull. So if 752 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 1: there's a bump in a certain place right near the 753 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 1: top of your head, that might show that you have 754 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 1: a special propensity for veneration, maybe you'd be a good 755 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 1: candidate for the clergy. But if there's a pronounced ridge 756 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,760 Speaker 1: over the top of your ear, that is a swelling 757 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,840 Speaker 1: of the organ of destructiveness, and you will surely become 758 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,239 Speaker 1: a violent criminal, etcetera. And I think you can pair 759 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:53,280 Speaker 1: phrenology along with what's known as physiognomy. More broadly, physiognomy 760 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,960 Speaker 1: is the belief that you can accurately assess a person's 761 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,920 Speaker 1: mental characteristics by looking at their outward appearance. Often, physiogo 762 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 1: to me, would focus on the face. You'd see these 763 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: charts of like, oh, somebody has a face like this, 764 00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 1: it means that they're they're very sanguine and uh and 765 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: and they're you know, prone to laughter and to gluttony. 766 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: And somebody has a face like this, and there, you know, 767 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,839 Speaker 1: without a doubt a murderer. Uh. And So phrenology and 768 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,279 Speaker 1: that kind of thing they led to all kinds of 769 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: horribly misguided applications and pseudo scientific criminology supposed scientific justifications 770 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,880 Speaker 1: for racism and ethnic prejudice, for gender prejudice and so forth. 771 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,800 Speaker 1: And it's weird because phrenology, like if you explain it today, 772 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,640 Speaker 1: it's one of those things that sounds so stupid on 773 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,960 Speaker 1: its face. It's hard to see how people ever believed it. 774 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 1: But phrenology was hugely influential, especially in the first half 775 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,320 Speaker 1: of the eighteen hundreds. Uh, though it was, it should 776 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 1: be said, it was not like everybody believed it at 777 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: the time. It was subjected to fierce scientific criticism even 778 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: during its heyday, But that doesn't mean it did not 779 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: find very popular applauding audiences. Yeah, like you said, so 780 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 1: much of the time it ends up being this way 781 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: of saying those horrible things you think when you look 782 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:11,360 Speaker 1: at certain people's skulls and faces, those feelings are backed 783 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 1: up by scientific principles, and here they are, and and 784 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: and that. You know, you can see why that would 785 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 1: be enough to hook people who wanted to believe these things. 786 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,359 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's great to tell people like that. You know, 787 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,759 Speaker 1: you can have a scientific justification for whatever you gut 788 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 1: feeling you get when you look at somebody like, oh, 789 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: this guy he has the you know, the the pointy 790 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,400 Speaker 1: top of the head of a genius, or you know 791 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 1: this late Yeah, my wife won't do what I tell 792 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:40,960 Speaker 1: her because there's something wrong with the shape of her skull, 793 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: and science proves it. Now, the tragedy of phrenology is 794 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,759 Speaker 1: started with some premises that are basically true. Like it 795 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 1: started with the idea that the personality and mental traits 796 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 1: are in large part determined by processes in the brain. 797 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,919 Speaker 1: Of course, that's true, we know that today and uh 798 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 1: and with the premise that some brain function and are 799 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: especially dependent on localized regions in the brain, so we 800 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: also know that's basically true. Like you know, visual processing 801 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,319 Speaker 1: depends especially on the visual cortex in the back of 802 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,319 Speaker 1: the head. Speech is especially dependent on the area now 803 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,759 Speaker 1: known as Broca's area, which is on the left side 804 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:17,879 Speaker 1: of the brain, near the front of the head. Uh. 805 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,040 Speaker 1: And these were real discoveries of early neuroscience that there 806 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,839 Speaker 1: were regions of the brain that correlated with certain types 807 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 1: of mental activity, though not always as strictly as some 808 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:33,239 Speaker 1: people think. Um. But from these real discoveries was extrapolated 809 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,920 Speaker 1: this flawed chain of reasoning that led to chronology, and 810 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,480 Speaker 1: according to people like Franz Joseph Gall it would go 811 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:41,680 Speaker 1: something like this. So you'd say the mind is a 812 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,120 Speaker 1: product of the brain. You know, apparently true or at 813 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 1: least mostly true. The brain is not a homogeneous mass, 814 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: but they're you know, there are different parts of it 815 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 1: that do different things. That's generally true. But then the 816 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 1: next leap is to the size of a localized part 817 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,880 Speaker 1: of the brain will be correlated to how powerful it 818 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:04,919 Speaker 1: associated mental faculty is, which is not necessarily true. And 819 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,760 Speaker 1: then from there you get to well, you get bumps 820 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,279 Speaker 1: on the outside of the skull that will indicate the 821 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 1: size and therefore the strength of the underlying regions of 822 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,440 Speaker 1: the brain, which that's pretty much not true. And then 823 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 1: therefore you can make a generalized map of the skull 824 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,759 Speaker 1: to find which shapes and bumps and protuberances create which 825 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 1: personality characteristics and aptitudes, which at this point is just 826 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,000 Speaker 1: completely wrong. You can just imagine the branch on the 827 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 1: tree here just going growing gradually more crooked for the 828 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:39,239 Speaker 1: further you go. Right, yeah, um, But for a few 829 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,200 Speaker 1: decades at least, phrenology again proved extremely popular again, as 830 00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,440 Speaker 1: it was especially during like the first half of the 831 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:49,320 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. Uh. And there's an interesting section in Lawson's 832 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 1: book where she attributes at least some of the appeal 833 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:57,000 Speaker 1: of phrenology to Franz Joseph Skull's skills at public speaking 834 00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,120 Speaker 1: and the allure of his lectures. She writes that he 835 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 1: always gave his public addresses with props surrounded by his 836 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,279 Speaker 1: personal collections of heads, which he would pick up and 837 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:11,360 Speaker 1: use for demonstration to enraptured audiences. You know, here's the 838 00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,200 Speaker 1: skull of a man who was consumed in life by vanity. 839 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,440 Speaker 1: You can see the bulge corresponding to his organ of conceit. 840 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,040 Speaker 1: Or here's the skull of a genius composer observed the 841 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:25,400 Speaker 1: swelling above his organ of music, etcetera. And then Larson 842 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:29,480 Speaker 1: writes quote, when fresh specimens were available, his assistant would 843 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:33,200 Speaker 1: dissect an animal brain or occasionally a human brain in 844 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:37,120 Speaker 1: front of the audience. Galls talks became famous in Vienna 845 00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,000 Speaker 1: and later throughout Northern Europe, and they were attended by 846 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,680 Speaker 1: a wide cross section of the public, from tourists and 847 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:47,759 Speaker 1: tradesmen to ambassadors and academics. The combination of medical terminology 848 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,879 Speaker 1: visual aids few members of the public can have seen 849 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:56,600 Speaker 1: a dissection before, and talented oratory was intoxicating. After a lecture, 850 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,560 Speaker 1: people queued up to have their own heads read by Gall. 851 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,880 Speaker 1: This was science endowed with psychic powers, the scientists who 852 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,760 Speaker 1: knew you better than you knew yourself, and all thanks 853 00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,520 Speaker 1: to the secrets inscribed in the shape of your head. 854 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,600 Speaker 1: But but I mean the horrible part being, of course 855 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,560 Speaker 1: that it was all just completely wrong. Phrenology had no 856 00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:20,759 Speaker 1: empirically verifiable basis, its founding premises were incorrect, and it 857 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,279 Speaker 1: could not make accurate predictions about future findings. But it 858 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,440 Speaker 1: was popular nonetheless. And it seems like, at least to 859 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,719 Speaker 1: some extent, it's popularity had more to do with the 860 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:35,160 Speaker 1: personal flair and charisma of its founding popularizer than with 861 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 1: its empirical merits. And this is something I think about 862 00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:40,719 Speaker 1: a lot. I think this is always something to be 863 00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,800 Speaker 1: really conscious of. It is so so easy to mistake 864 00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,759 Speaker 1: good public speaking for truth. Uh, you know, the the 865 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,799 Speaker 1: allure of a weekly supported claim delivered by a charismatic 866 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,920 Speaker 1: voice is always present and something to you know, be 867 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 1: conscious of, to like ask yourself if that's happening in 868 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,880 Speaker 1: your brain, if you are thinking something is true because 869 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,160 Speaker 1: somebody is good at talking and they're saying it. And 870 00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,000 Speaker 1: I think about digital versions of this today, the digital 871 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:14,000 Speaker 1: versions of the Viennese lecture halls like YouTube, where you know, 872 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,799 Speaker 1: I get a feeling that there is a huge undercurrent 873 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:20,400 Speaker 1: of ideological shaping that often takes place on a similar 874 00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,960 Speaker 1: basis here viewers of things like YouTube and even podcasts. 875 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,719 Speaker 1: So we could say, listen to somebody mainly because they're 876 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,200 Speaker 1: a compelling speaker. They're captivating to listen to. They you know, 877 00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,000 Speaker 1: they they're good with words, there's something nice about their voice, 878 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,279 Speaker 1: whatever that is, and over time can end up adopting 879 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 1: their beliefs or claims, regardless of whether there's a good 880 00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,319 Speaker 1: reason for the claims themselves. Yeah, you know what I mean. 881 00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:45,120 Speaker 1: It makes me think back to uh, you know Carl 882 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,080 Speaker 1: Sagan I mentioned earlier. I mean, Sagan was an individual 883 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,440 Speaker 1: who every everything tended to line up for him. You know, 884 00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:56,799 Speaker 1: a great scientific mind, an excellent speaker and science communicator. 885 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,719 Speaker 1: But you don't have to have every line up with 886 00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:02,960 Speaker 1: a person, and many times it does not. You have 887 00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,080 Speaker 1: plenty of great scientists who are not natural public speakers, 888 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,319 Speaker 1: and you have plenty of natural public speakers who do 889 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:13,160 Speaker 1: not have a mind for science or an appreciation for science, 890 00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:17,920 Speaker 1: and maybe not interested in in impressing the science like that. 891 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,600 Speaker 1: They may use the science in some cases when it 892 00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,160 Speaker 1: suits them, but that is not their their primary go Well, 893 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,560 Speaker 1: I would say one thing that really works against us 894 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:30,080 Speaker 1: here is the tragic disjunction of the fact that one 895 00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,920 Speaker 1: of the most compelling qualities in a speaker, one of 896 00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:36,640 Speaker 1: the things that makes people most fun to listen to 897 00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:41,720 Speaker 1: as a speaker is confidence. And yet being a good 898 00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:46,000 Speaker 1: communicator of science often requires you to be extremely circumspect 899 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,600 Speaker 1: and to repeatedly in tone, you know, communicate doubt and 900 00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,920 Speaker 1: to repeatedly communicate you know, we're not sure about this, 901 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:55,439 Speaker 1: that you know that these are reasons for thinking so, 902 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:57,719 Speaker 1: but there are reasons against it and all that which 903 00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,080 Speaker 1: goes exactly against some of the things that makes but 904 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,080 Speaker 1: the most fun to just like watch lectures from right right. 905 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,799 Speaker 1: And this is true at at various levels in different ways. 906 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:08,799 Speaker 1: It's certainly true at our level because we are we 907 00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,120 Speaker 1: are not experts in the topics that we discuss, and 908 00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:15,120 Speaker 1: therefore we always have to admit this could this could 909 00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,040 Speaker 1: be wrong, and or this is changing, this could change, 910 00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:20,520 Speaker 1: because then we get into the level of just that's 911 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:24,279 Speaker 1: what science is. So you'll encounter, you know, experts in 912 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:28,160 Speaker 1: their field who are also voicing the same level of uncertainty. 913 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,719 Speaker 1: And there are times where that is not as convincing 914 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:37,160 Speaker 1: as someone who, uh, you know, who's very sure of themselves, 915 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,600 Speaker 1: like the the the yeah. And you know, you can 916 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,400 Speaker 1: easily think of various examples of this um you know, 917 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,799 Speaker 1: you can see why they You can be drawn into 918 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:48,480 Speaker 1: the siren song of someone who's absolutely seems absolutely certain 919 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,680 Speaker 1: about what they're talking about, versus someone who says, well, 920 00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:54,440 Speaker 1: we're still figuring it out. All right, Well, you know, 921 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:56,799 Speaker 1: we're almost out of time here. But I want to 922 00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,239 Speaker 1: share another story of brain theft, and this one comes 923 00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:04,080 Speaker 1: to us from two thousand sixteen. I don't know if 924 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,080 Speaker 1: you ran across this one, Joe, uh, but the basic 925 00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,640 Speaker 1: premise here is summed up well in the headline, this 926 00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:14,160 Speaker 1: headline from the Daily Mail. My nemesis, are you're gonna 927 00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,120 Speaker 1: make me click on a Daily Mail article? Uh? Well? 928 00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:19,799 Speaker 1: I also I also provided you with or maybe I didn't. Yeah, 929 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,680 Speaker 1: I did provide you with another uh report as well 930 00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:27,960 Speaker 1: from CBS Pittsburgh your choice. Okay, thirty thousand caveats to 931 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,880 Speaker 1: whatever this story is, but I do want to hear it. Okay. 932 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:34,280 Speaker 1: So the Daily Mail headline was burglar stole human brain, 933 00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:39,080 Speaker 1: nicknamed it Freddie and used the embombing fluid to get high. Um. 934 00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,640 Speaker 1: And there were various versions of this this headline that 935 00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:46,319 Speaker 1: were that were traded about in So what happened here 936 00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:50,400 Speaker 1: is Okay, this is Pennsylvania where Allegedly, a twenty six 937 00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:54,440 Speaker 1: year old uh individual was in jail on burglary charges 938 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,560 Speaker 1: when his grandma discovered a human brain underneath the porch 939 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:04,440 Speaker 1: in a Walmart path. Okay, allegedly the stolen brain, named 940 00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:08,920 Speaker 1: Freddie by the year old individual. Okay, he named it, 941 00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,920 Speaker 1: He named it. Freddie was being used for its embalming fluid, 942 00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,720 Speaker 1: which the accused and and a friend used to soak 943 00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:21,359 Speaker 1: their marijuana in prior to smoking said marijuana. Oh no, 944 00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:27,880 Speaker 1: if that's true, that no, no, no so um. According 945 00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:31,200 Speaker 1: First of all, according to CBS Pittsburgh reporting on the incident, 946 00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:35,120 Speaker 1: the brain was most likely a stolen teaching specimen. So basically, 947 00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,680 Speaker 1: go back to the original Frankenstein. That's scene where was 948 00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,000 Speaker 1: his named. Fritz goes in to steal a brain, and 949 00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,080 Speaker 1: there are the two brains, there's the normal brain and 950 00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:46,239 Speaker 1: the criminal brain, and he accidentally smashes one of the 951 00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:51,080 Speaker 1: jars and steals the other one. Basically that scenario um, 952 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,319 Speaker 1: except in this case, Uh, I guess Fritz had other 953 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,040 Speaker 1: ideas in mind. So to two tips I want to 954 00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:01,719 Speaker 1: share for everybody here. First of all, and obviously, do 955 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:05,759 Speaker 1: not steal a human brain. I mean it's it's illegal 956 00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,399 Speaker 1: in the United States to possess a human brain like this. 957 00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:10,880 Speaker 1: It's illegal to own or possess the remains of a 958 00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:14,440 Speaker 1: human being other than ashes. Uh. You know, with certain 959 00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,640 Speaker 1: caveats obviously, if you're like a teaching institution, etcetera. But 960 00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,880 Speaker 1: for the just a random individual, No, you can't have 961 00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,359 Speaker 1: a brain. You can't have a skull. Um. So that 962 00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,680 Speaker 1: means no head, no brain, no skull, none of that. 963 00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:32,440 Speaker 1: Second smoking formalde hide laced anything is just a terrible idea. 964 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,000 Speaker 1: Do not do it, um. It can result in a 965 00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:39,160 Speaker 1: host of issues including brain damage to your brain, not Freddy, 966 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:43,360 Speaker 1: your brain, lung damage, and body tissue destruction. So just 967 00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,520 Speaker 1: a some bad choices were made here regarding Freddy. Never 968 00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:53,200 Speaker 1: smoked Freddy. Yeah, so uh with that, I think we're 969 00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:55,600 Speaker 1: gonna close out part one here, but I'm excited to 970 00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:57,680 Speaker 1: come back in part two because we're gonna we're gonna 971 00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:00,920 Speaker 1: get into other cases of head and brain theft. We're 972 00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,759 Speaker 1: gonna get into some ancient traditions. We're gonna talk a 973 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:07,279 Speaker 1: little bit about mythology and folklore. Uh, it should be 974 00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:09,640 Speaker 1: a really fun time. I can't wait. And then at 975 00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,040 Speaker 1: the end of the week, are are weird how cinema 976 00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,719 Speaker 1: selection is also going to concern brains. We have a 977 00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:18,759 Speaker 1: really brainloaded week here. I'm so excited, as chop Top 978 00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:23,680 Speaker 1: would say, my brain is burning. All right. Well, if 979 00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,279 Speaker 1: your brain is burning and you would like to listen 980 00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:28,200 Speaker 1: to more Stuff to Blow your Mind, check out the 981 00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:31,200 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed. Wherever you get 982 00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:35,840 Speaker 1: your podcasts, you'll get your core episodes of science and 983 00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:40,360 Speaker 1: culture on Tuesdays and Thursdays, that short form artifact on Wednesdays. 984 00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,399 Speaker 1: Do you get listener mail on Monday's and yep, Friday 985 00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,000 Speaker 1: is weird how cinema? And we run a vault episode 986 00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:50,040 Speaker 1: a rerun on Saturday's. Um if if you can rate, 987 00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:53,400 Speaker 1: review and subscribe because that helps out the show. Huge things. 988 00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,520 Speaker 1: As always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 989 00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:58,359 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 990 00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:00,920 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or an other, to suggest 991 00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,240 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 992 00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,919 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at Stuff to Blow 993 00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:16,160 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your minds production 994 00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,960 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, 995 00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,840 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 996 00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:31,160 Speaker 1: you listening to your favorite shows