1
00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,720
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

2
00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,559
Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

3
00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800
Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

4
00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,439
Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

5
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,759
Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

6
00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,720
Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

7
00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,279
Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

8
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,040
Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

9
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,680
Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

10
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

11
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

12
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:45,680
Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

13
00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,360
Speaker 2: Hey, Paul, Ay, Kate, how are you.

14
00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:04,880
Speaker 1: I'm doing well. How about you?

15
00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:06,640
Speaker 2: I am doing very good.

16
00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,600
Speaker 1: Well, listen, I have a farm story. My kids are

17
00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:11,800
Speaker 1: not farm kids. I grew up on a farm most

18
00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,200
Speaker 1: of the time and then in the city in Austin

19
00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,280
Speaker 1: part of the time. And we now have you know,

20
00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,119
Speaker 1: my family's farm and the farmhouse from we've talked about

21
00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,760
Speaker 1: the undertaker's house from the eighteen hundreds, and so we

22
00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,720
Speaker 1: go out to the farm a lot. The kids love it,

23
00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:32,480
Speaker 1: and we decided to venture into the river with a

24
00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,920
Speaker 1: flat bottom boat and a trolling motor. Now I grew

25
00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:38,880
Speaker 1: up doing this. Did you ever do stuff like that?

26
00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:40,959
Speaker 1: Did you ever pop a boat in a lake and

27
00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,000
Speaker 1: put a little motor on it and do any fishing

28
00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:44,360
Speaker 1: or anything like that growing up?

29
00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,920
Speaker 2: No? You know, my dad wasn't into fishing. You know,

30
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,320
Speaker 2: his brothers were, you know they were. In fact, his

31
00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,000
Speaker 2: oldest brother was a big ice fisher up in Minnesota.

32
00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,080
Speaker 2: I've only fished a couple of times, you know, been

33
00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,000
Speaker 2: out on a boat a handful of times, and it's

34
00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,400
Speaker 2: something that I probably would enjoy, for sure.

35
00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,520
Speaker 1: I'm not sure you would enjoy what we did. Oh,

36
00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,919
Speaker 1: this was This was rough because my kids like to hike.

37
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,480
Speaker 1: They're very outdoorsy. They climb on stuff and have no

38
00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,480
Speaker 1: problem getting hurt. Yeah, they've never done this before. And

39
00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:19,520
Speaker 1: like I said, this is how I grew up Larry

40
00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,360
Speaker 1: like Mark Twain, you know, the Huckleberry Finn thing. So

41
00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,120
Speaker 1: we hopped in this flat bottom boat and put the

42
00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:28,639
Speaker 1: trolling motor in and went under I mean more brush

43
00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,079
Speaker 1: than I've ever gone under before. We couldn't even clear it.

44
00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,800
Speaker 1: And we get up from the creek onto the river

45
00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,480
Speaker 1: and we go down and my kids love to swim

46
00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,800
Speaker 1: in any kind of water. So they hop out and

47
00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,200
Speaker 1: get of course promptly incredibly muddy, very very cold. But

48
00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,720
Speaker 1: they're out there flopping around in the river the way

49
00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,520
Speaker 1: I used to which was so much fun to see.

50
00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,800
Speaker 1: But this is this is what happened. I swung around

51
00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,200
Speaker 1: the boat by myself, left them down there. My dad

52
00:02:58,240 --> 00:02:59,799
Speaker 1: was watching him, and left them down there, and I

53
00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,280
Speaker 1: went up to go get my mom in this little boat,

54
00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,919
Speaker 1: and I see a scorpion, which I have to be honest,

55
00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,560
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I've ever really seen a scorpion outside

56
00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,760
Speaker 1: of some sort of zoo like situation. And I could

57
00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,040
Speaker 1: not remember whether they can they kill you or does

58
00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,280
Speaker 1: it depend on the scorpion. This was not a black one.

59
00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,160
Speaker 1: It was like kind of gray pink, but he looked mad.

60
00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,120
Speaker 2: I don't know if you know, if their venom is

61
00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,440
Speaker 2: something that is that toxic, you know, that would be

62
00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:30,680
Speaker 2: that'd be interesting. I know you want to avoid them

63
00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:31,240
Speaker 2: for sure.

64
00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,000
Speaker 1: Well, my mom said, what did you do? And I said, oh,

65
00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,080
Speaker 1: I flicked him, But I what I really did was

66
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,880
Speaker 1: whacked him with my war and I was trying to

67
00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,640
Speaker 1: had my hand on the trolling motor at the same time,

68
00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,680
Speaker 1: and then I picked up my oar and whacked him off.

69
00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,240
Speaker 1: But I just thought, wow, I know that those are

70
00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 1: they can have a pretty wicked sting, but those are

71
00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,840
Speaker 1: the perils. My kids freaked out when I told him

72
00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,120
Speaker 1: about it, and I said, this is when you are

73
00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,680
Speaker 1: in the country, like how I grew up, which I loved,

74
00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,360
Speaker 1: loved it was. You can expect to get scraped up.

75
00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,200
Speaker 1: You can expect to potentially get bitten by some kind

76
00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,680
Speaker 1: of bug we're stung. You can expect to get cold

77
00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,040
Speaker 1: and wet or hot and sweaty. And they managed to

78
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:17,040
Speaker 1: do all four of those things when we were down there.

79
00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,400
Speaker 1: But I just thought, oh my gosh, the scorpion. I

80
00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,560
Speaker 1: have been stung and bitten by just about everything under

81
00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,479
Speaker 1: the sun, but I don't think that's ever happened before.

82
00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,479
Speaker 1: And I just had thought this would be something that

83
00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:27,880
Speaker 1: would not be a great experience.

84
00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,240
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I used to live in San Antonio, Texas,

85
00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,960
Speaker 2: like from fifth through seventh grade, you know, and I

86
00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,240
Speaker 2: remember that the critters in Texas are no joke. And

87
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,760
Speaker 2: you know, of course the fire ants. You know, sitting

88
00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,440
Speaker 2: on a fire ant pile is not a good thing.

89
00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,560
Speaker 2: I remember going into a creek because I would go

90
00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,280
Speaker 2: off by myself, you know, as a boy, and just

91
00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:51,960
Speaker 2: you know, I would never let my kids do what

92
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,680
Speaker 2: I did growing up, you know. And there was this

93
00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,120
Speaker 2: creek where I lived in San Antonio, and I remember

94
00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,000
Speaker 2: just kind of playing around by the way water and

95
00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,480
Speaker 2: there was a snake in the water. I was like, oh,

96
00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to catch that snake. So I grabbed the

97
00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:08,840
Speaker 2: snake by the tail and I pull up out of

98
00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,560
Speaker 2: the water and it was maybe twelve inches eighteen inches

99
00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,040
Speaker 2: sog wasn't very big, but all of a sudden, it's

100
00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,440
Speaker 2: opening its mouth at me, and I was just like,

101
00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,880
Speaker 2: what is this, you know, And then probably thinking back,

102
00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,480
Speaker 2: it was probably something akin to like a water moccasin.

103
00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah, we have them all over our property.

104
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,920
Speaker 1: A water moccasin. You have to be so careful. Yeah,

105
00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,520
Speaker 1: I'm scared about the dogs being out there. When I

106
00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:33,679
Speaker 1: was a kid, I would run through all the little

107
00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,120
Speaker 1: trails and stuff. And I jumped over in one of

108
00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,240
Speaker 1: our our trails. I jumped over. I don't know if

109
00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:40,800
Speaker 1: it's like a divit or what it is in the

110
00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,240
Speaker 1: in the ground, and I turned around to go back,

111
00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,720
Speaker 1: and there was a water moccasin curled up in a

112
00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,400
Speaker 1: ball alive, laying there, and I thought.

113
00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:50,680
Speaker 2: Hit, yeah, here are the kids.

114
00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:51,919
Speaker 1: And the kids are like, we don't want to go

115
00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:53,920
Speaker 1: back on the water again, And I said, listen, most

116
00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,400
Speaker 1: of the time, nobody is going to hurt you if

117
00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,440
Speaker 1: you don't hurt them. But they've never experienced this before, so.

118
00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, no tell you. Yeah, yeah, you have to be careful.

119
00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,480
Speaker 2: It's just like here in Colorado. You know, we've got

120
00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,839
Speaker 2: real big creatures that can hurt you. In Texas, yeah,

121
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,960
Speaker 2: you got the insects everywhere that can hurt you.

122
00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,880
Speaker 1: Well, this, to me, the creatures on the farm can

123
00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:17,960
Speaker 1: be a little bit of a mystery. And this kind

124
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,520
Speaker 1: of brings us into this story. This is a different

125
00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,000
Speaker 1: kind of story that we're going to talk about. It

126
00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,360
Speaker 1: is a medical mystery, and I think you and I

127
00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,080
Speaker 1: have to try to figure out is this a true

128
00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,360
Speaker 1: crime story or just a horrible tragedy. So when we

129
00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,279
Speaker 1: get started on this, I'm going to want to know

130
00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,960
Speaker 1: about medical mysteries or challenges that you've had. Does that

131
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:38,480
Speaker 1: sound good?

132
00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,200
Speaker 2: That sounds good. I'll do my best.

133
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,599
Speaker 1: Okay, let's set the scene. This story takes place in

134
00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,240
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four, year I was born nineteen seventy four,

135
00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,240
Speaker 1: fourth of July in dix Hills, New York. And it's

136
00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,719
Speaker 1: on Long Island, just over the border that divides the

137
00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,880
Speaker 1: island into Nassau County, closer to New York City and

138
00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,120
Speaker 1: then you know Eastern Long Island. And in the seventies,

139
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,479
Speaker 1: this area, dix Hills is a new suburb that's full

140
00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,120
Speaker 1: of all of these new housing developments. And I think

141
00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,280
Speaker 1: this is going to be important. This is actually a

142
00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,000
Speaker 1: story where I'm not quite sure what is and what

143
00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,600
Speaker 1: isn't important. It's so interesting. Most of these have sprung

144
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,680
Speaker 1: up in the sixties, but you know, now there's a

145
00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,320
Speaker 1: lot of new developments. And we're centering this story on

146
00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,160
Speaker 1: a young family. There are two kids here. There's a

147
00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,560
Speaker 1: little girl named Angelina who's seven, and another little girl

148
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,880
Speaker 1: named Deborah who is four years old, and they are

149
00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,880
Speaker 1: part of the Log family. They're swimming at their aunt

150
00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,440
Speaker 1: and uncle's pool with six other kids, and again fourth

151
00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,240
Speaker 1: of July. They're having a good time. They have an

152
00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,360
Speaker 1: aunt and uncle named Harry and Lucy Knudsen, and the

153
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,280
Speaker 1: Log family lives in Lake Grove, which is about fifteen

154
00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,040
Speaker 1: miles away. You know, so this story really kind of

155
00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,000
Speaker 1: the center of it is in Dix Hills. It's not

156
00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,600
Speaker 1: even where the log family is located. It's at this pool.

157
00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,120
Speaker 1: Sod's name is Frank. He has gone to work, so

158
00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,680
Speaker 1: he's not there yet. We'll start with what we know

159
00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:11,200
Speaker 1: about these two kids who will become victims. So Angie

160
00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:15,840
Speaker 1: and Debbie are both described in the contemporary articles as

161
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,120
Speaker 1: intellectually disabled. Actually that's not the way they're described, but

162
00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,600
Speaker 1: that's the way I'm describing them. You can imagine the

163
00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,400
Speaker 1: phrasing that they would have used in the seventies, but

164
00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,080
Speaker 1: it sounds like intellectually disabled again, might be important, might

165
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,000
Speaker 1: not be. We don't know what the extent is. But

166
00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:36,200
Speaker 1: they're swimming and having fun with six other kids. They

167
00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,880
Speaker 1: stop and have lunch. They have like maloney sandwiches and

168
00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,000
Speaker 1: grape juice from a concentrated syrup. I mean, I hate

169
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,240
Speaker 1: to feel stupid here, but what does that mean? Because

170
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,320
Speaker 1: I'm not used to that. Is that the stuff that

171
00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,760
Speaker 1: comes frozen in a can and you defrosted and add water.

172
00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:52,800
Speaker 1: Is that what that means?

173
00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:54,680
Speaker 2: Oh? Well, I don't know if it came frozen in

174
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,160
Speaker 2: a can, but it sounds just like you know, when

175
00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:58,880
Speaker 2: you're working in a fast food place, and you have

176
00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,440
Speaker 2: the soda machines. You know, you have the syrup that's

177
00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,080
Speaker 2: in a like a keg like container that you hook

178
00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,520
Speaker 2: into the machine, and then the syrup and the rest

179
00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,400
Speaker 2: of the drink is mixed by the soda machine. So

180
00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,880
Speaker 2: I imagine I don't recall this. These girls are my age.

181
00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,400
Speaker 2: I would have been six years old in nineteen seventy four,

182
00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,080
Speaker 2: you know, but I don't ever recall my mom having

183
00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,319
Speaker 2: some sort of syrup that she would mix to make

184
00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,200
Speaker 2: a drink. You know, there was powders. You remember Tang,

185
00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:31,280
Speaker 2: I do vividly.

186
00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,360
Speaker 1: I actually did mind Tang, And maybe I'm the only

187
00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,720
Speaker 1: person besides the astronauts I liked Tang. I liked tang

188
00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,440
Speaker 1: okay in a very strong flavor. But I digress.

189
00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,959
Speaker 2: Yes, so, yeah, but I'm assuming that, yeah, that's exactly

190
00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:45,640
Speaker 2: what it is. Is that, you know, you could buy

191
00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,480
Speaker 2: the syrup and then you just mix it with water

192
00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,840
Speaker 2: or maybe a seltzer of some sort, and you've got

193
00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:51,600
Speaker 2: the drink.

194
00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,040
Speaker 1: So the important points to take away from this are

195
00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,200
Speaker 1: Angie and Debbie are about to get very sick, and

196
00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,280
Speaker 1: everything seems to be share like across the board. They're

197
00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,160
Speaker 1: in the same swimming pool. They're eating the same thing

198
00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:08,280
Speaker 1: that everybody else is eating, blooney sandwiches, grape juice. So far,

199
00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,920
Speaker 1: we can't see why these two kids would get sick,

200
00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,160
Speaker 1: but nobody else does. But let's move along. The day

201
00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,240
Speaker 1: they're swimming, they're having a good time, they had lunch,

202
00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,720
Speaker 1: and then it sounds like three or four hours later,

203
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,240
Speaker 1: the kids get out of the pool and they get changed.

204
00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,200
Speaker 1: All the kids, so I think there's eight of them.

205
00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,640
Speaker 1: They've been swimming for hours. They say they're exhausted, but

206
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:35,160
Speaker 1: Angie and Debbie are reportedly especially tired. Angie's complaining that

207
00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,720
Speaker 1: she feels cold, she's exhausted, she wants to rest. She

208
00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,480
Speaker 1: walks over, and Angie is the seven year old. She

209
00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,600
Speaker 1: walks over and she lays down on the concrete next

210
00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,280
Speaker 1: to the pool. Her mother picks her up and puts

211
00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,080
Speaker 1: her on a lounge chair and covers her up with

212
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:56,040
Speaker 1: a blanket. And then soon her sister lies down on

213
00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,920
Speaker 1: a lounge chair across the pool from Angie. I don't know,

214
00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:00,839
Speaker 1: my kids get exhausted all all the time. This does

215
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:05,960
Speaker 1: not seem particularly alarming yet, But so far you've got

216
00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,360
Speaker 1: kind of two kids who almost seem like they can't

217
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,720
Speaker 1: move from exhaustion. At this point, I know you're not

218
00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:13,640
Speaker 1: going to be able to say what's suspicious or not.

219
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,719
Speaker 1: But just from what you know so far and me

220
00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,199
Speaker 1: telling you that something is going to happen to both

221
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,160
Speaker 1: of these kids, what are the circumstances that you could

222
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,319
Speaker 1: see that could be potentially problematic for them at this point?

223
00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,800
Speaker 2: Well, it's not unusual, you know, kids playing out in

224
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,360
Speaker 2: the pool. I mean, there's a lot of physical exertion.

225
00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:38,120
Speaker 2: Of course, even though the water is generally going to

226
00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,560
Speaker 2: be relatively warm, it's still cooler than body temperature, you know,

227
00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:47,280
Speaker 2: so there is a drain on these kids' bodies. You know.

228
00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:48,439
Speaker 2: I used to lifeguard.

229
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:49,320
Speaker 1: I didn't know that.

230
00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, every hour, you know, we would have the fifteen

231
00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,840
Speaker 2: minute break and get all the kids out, and then

232
00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,240
Speaker 2: there'd be adults sweat. Only the adults were allowed to

233
00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,680
Speaker 2: go in. And part of that was so the adults

234
00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:01,880
Speaker 2: had the venience of having the pool without all the kids,

235
00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,280
Speaker 2: you know, splashing around, But it was also kids don't

236
00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:09,520
Speaker 2: monitor themselves and don't realize how much sun exposure they're getting,

237
00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,240
Speaker 2: how much exertion, how tired they're getting so it is

238
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,960
Speaker 2: to give the kids a break. So Angie and Debbie

239
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,959
Speaker 2: being seven and four, you know, right now, from my experience,

240
00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,840
Speaker 2: I go, it sounds like, yeah, they just over exerted themselves.

241
00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,120
Speaker 2: This is not something that would be overly concerning. I know,

242
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:29,679
Speaker 2: you're going to tell me that their condition is going

243
00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,400
Speaker 2: to worsen. And now it's like, okay, why just those

244
00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,959
Speaker 2: two kids versus the others? Yep, And so that's going

245
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,719
Speaker 2: to be the big thing I'm going to key in on.

246
00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,760
Speaker 2: And whatever their condition turns out to be, is it

247
00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,560
Speaker 2: something that occurred while at the pool or was it

248
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,480
Speaker 2: something it occurred prior to them joining this group. So

249
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:51,760
Speaker 2: that's you know what I'm going to be listening for.

250
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:56,440
Speaker 1: Okay, So they are laying down sometime between four and

251
00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,440
Speaker 1: six o'clock. They're exhausted, They lay down, the dad come home.

252
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,040
Speaker 1: So whether or not this is important, we'll see. Frank

253
00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,120
Speaker 1: is married to Nancy. Nancy is the girl's stepmother or

254
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,880
Speaker 1: adopted mother, We're not really clear based on the sources,

255
00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,760
Speaker 1: but she is their mother figure. They have a blended family.

256
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:19,120
Speaker 1: Frank is a widower and he and Nancy together have

257
00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,120
Speaker 1: seven kids and then there's an eighth kid who the

258
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,920
Speaker 1: Logs ended up bringing into the family. So there are

259
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:27,920
Speaker 1: a lot of kids around, and the pool is full

260
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:32,000
Speaker 1: of kids. Frank comes home from work around seven o'clock,

261
00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,920
Speaker 1: so the girls are not feeling well. Sometime between four

262
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,680
Speaker 1: and six, they're laying down. He gets in. Nancy says, theah,

263
00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,240
Speaker 1: they're wiped. Go out to the pool and check on him.

264
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,400
Speaker 1: He grabs a glass of iced tea. He goes out there.

265
00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:49,080
Speaker 1: They are asleep, and then Nancy the mom comes out

266
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,840
Speaker 1: not long afterwards, and she looks down at Angie and

267
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,320
Speaker 1: she said, this is not right. She describes her as

268
00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,360
Speaker 1: looking ashen. And I feel like I've asked you this

269
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:02,960
Speaker 1: a million times, But tell me what ashen means when

270
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:03,800
Speaker 1: somebody says that.

271
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,040
Speaker 2: You know, now you're dealing with when when somebody gets ill,

272
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,920
Speaker 2: their circulation is not as good as what it is.

273
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,440
Speaker 2: You know, so and you have the the body's natural

274
00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:19,200
Speaker 2: response is, of course, it's just like what I experienced

275
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,520
Speaker 2: when I get really cold, is you know, the circulation

276
00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,880
Speaker 2: gets kind of shut down, so the vital organs are

277
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:29,800
Speaker 2: receiving most of the supply, and so the face, you know,

278
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,400
Speaker 2: the what you can typically see on a person ends

279
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,360
Speaker 2: up becoming kind of whitish, but she's not described it's ashes.

280
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:42,120
Speaker 2: She's not saying that she has a blue note. Oh Hugh, Okay, okay.

281
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,240
Speaker 1: But we have some more description coming up that'll be

282
00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,360
Speaker 1: probably helpful for you too. There's a sixteen year old

283
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,920
Speaker 1: girl named Jane who is one of the Canutsen's you know,

284
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,720
Speaker 1: family members. She's there. She's had nurses training in high school, which,

285
00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,800
Speaker 1: thank goodness, somebody there has has some knowledge because now

286
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,000
Speaker 1: we have this description. So Jane, the sixteen year old,

287
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,880
Speaker 1: opens up Angie's eyes and she sees that one pupil

288
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,920
Speaker 1: is dilated and one is constricted. And she says to

289
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,280
Speaker 1: Nancy the mom, and Frank the dad, this could be

290
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,400
Speaker 1: multiple things, but none of them are good. What does

291
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,040
Speaker 1: that mean when one pupil is dilated and the other

292
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,520
Speaker 1: one isn't. I didn't even know that was possible.

293
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,080
Speaker 2: Well, you know the differences between the two pupils, at

294
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,920
Speaker 2: least with what I know, that is typically seen like

295
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:34,080
Speaker 2: with head injuries or there's some sort of brain affliction,

296
00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,680
Speaker 2: if you will. And so now when you're seeing this

297
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,600
Speaker 2: differences in the pupils, you're very concerned about Okay, what's

298
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,880
Speaker 2: going on? You know inside that person's brain do you

299
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,760
Speaker 2: have you know, is there some bleeding going on? Did

300
00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:49,840
Speaker 2: they hit their head? Now, in terms of under the

301
00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:55,600
Speaker 2: circumstances right now, with the two girls being very lethargic,

302
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,320
Speaker 2: it sounds like, well, this is more they were exposed

303
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,680
Speaker 2: to something. I'm not sure if there would be a

304
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,520
Speaker 2: substance that would cause the pupils to be different that

305
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,040
Speaker 2: I just don't know. That's where I would be turning

306
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,920
Speaker 2: to a medical expert and say, hey, what could potentially

307
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:12,280
Speaker 2: cause this.

308
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,760
Speaker 1: So Nancy, when she hears that Jane, the student who

309
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,720
Speaker 1: has some nursing background, is alarmed. She picks up Angie

310
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,920
Speaker 1: to see what's going on the seven year old, and

311
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,400
Speaker 1: she says that Angie's body stiffens and then goes limp

312
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,720
Speaker 1: and there's a orange red foam at her mouth and

313
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,800
Speaker 1: traces of blood in her nostrils. And I will tell you,

314
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,960
Speaker 1: Paul later on, there is a substance in both of

315
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,120
Speaker 1: these girls. So knowing that what is this.

316
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,760
Speaker 2: So a foam? You know, I can think of an overdose,

317
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,760
Speaker 2: like with cough syrup, you know, you see this foam

318
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,680
Speaker 2: from just the overdose and the death process, you know,

319
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,560
Speaker 2: the lack of the breathing, the edema and the lungs

320
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,600
Speaker 2: that ends up kind of forming you know around the mouth. Now,

321
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,479
Speaker 2: the color, the orangish color, is that vomit maybe vomit

322
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,960
Speaker 2: dilute blood? You know, color is objective, you know. Now,

323
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,960
Speaker 2: blood in the nose, yeah, you know that. That of

324
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:24,360
Speaker 2: course is very concerning in terms of what's happening internally

325
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,160
Speaker 2: and where what is that source of the blood. Is

326
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,840
Speaker 2: that coming into the lungs and is now being breathed

327
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,520
Speaker 2: up into the oral and nasal cavities? Was there any

328
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:38,400
Speaker 2: type of injury that is causing some internal bleeding? Will see,

329
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:44,040
Speaker 2: like significant injuries to the skull can cause blood to

330
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,119
Speaker 2: end up forming in the nasal cavity just because of

331
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,240
Speaker 2: the internal bleeding that's occurring. But as of right now,

332
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:56,280
Speaker 2: there's no nobody's observing any type of trauma to either

333
00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:57,119
Speaker 2: girl's heads.

334
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,480
Speaker 1: Nope, okay, not a bit, but let's continue on. Now

335
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,320
Speaker 1: everyone's alarmed. They call emergency services and they get the

336
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:11,520
Speaker 1: Canudsen aunt. Her name's Lucy. She was a surgical technician

337
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,080
Speaker 1: with the Army Medical Corps and she began mouth to

338
00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:18,040
Speaker 1: mouth as the emergency services folks were going to respond.

339
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 1: They show up. They take Angie to Good Samaritan Hospital

340
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:27,800
Speaker 1: in West Islip, New York. And right after Angie is

341
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,640
Speaker 1: driven away, the family I'm sure had been looking at Debbie,

342
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,840
Speaker 1: but now Debbie looks bad too. They put her in

343
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,760
Speaker 1: the police car and they take her to the hospital. Now,

344
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,680
Speaker 1: unlike Angie, Debbie the four year old is conscious in

345
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,879
Speaker 1: the police car and she actually the police, remember she

346
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,280
Speaker 1: said that the siren was way too loud. But back

347
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,320
Speaker 1: in the ambulance, Angie, the seven year old is rapidly

348
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 1: deteriorating and her heart and her breathing stop before they

349
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,320
Speaker 1: even get to the hospital. And Debbie's not getting any

350
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:04,120
Speaker 1: better either. So heart and breathing stopped. Does that make

351
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,840
Speaker 1: sense to you based on everything that we've heard so far.

352
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:12,040
Speaker 2: She's spiraling physically, she's spiraling, so you know, it's what

353
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:13,879
Speaker 2: is causing the breathing to stop.

354
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,240
Speaker 1: And this is a three hour period at the most.

355
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,760
Speaker 1: They were fine up until about three and a half,

356
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,480
Speaker 1: maybe maybe hours ago. It could have been even less.

357
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:24,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, some sort of poison, some sort of

358
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 2: toxin where now it's interrupting the nervous system. There's different

359
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,679
Speaker 2: things that are going through my head. Was this something

360
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 2: that the girls ingested, you know, that was separate from

361
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,919
Speaker 2: what the other kids were taken into their body? You know,

362
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,879
Speaker 2: as we talked about at the beginning, you know, the scorpion.

363
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,480
Speaker 2: You know, did these two girls, you know, were they

364
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,520
Speaker 2: bit by you know, some sort of spider like a

365
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,040
Speaker 2: brown recluse. You know, they just happened to both get

366
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,199
Speaker 2: bit you know right now, I don't know, it's just

367
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,840
Speaker 2: they're going through I mean with with Angie, you know

368
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,480
Speaker 2: the fact that her respiration and her heart are both stopping,

369
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,840
Speaker 2: that's very concerning. This is not a good situation.

370
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 1: No, and they had just been swimming for hours, had lunch.

371
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,959
Speaker 1: I mean, the way that this has devolved is horrible. Okay,

372
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,280
Speaker 1: Well they're both at the hospital now, the seven year

373
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,879
Speaker 1: old and the four year old. They both are immediately

374
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 1: put on ventilators in the ICU because now I'm assuming

375
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 1: Debbie has stopped breathing too. Shortly after Angie dies and

376
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,919
Speaker 1: they try to now save Debbie and she is in

377
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 1: a coma, and the doctors think, what you think that

378
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,560
Speaker 1: they must have ingested something or come into contact with

379
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 1: some kind of toxic substance. But The doctors have no

380
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 1: idea what so they call a toxicologist from the medical

381
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,160
Speaker 1: Examiner's office. Thank goodness, we have them. We haven't always

382
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,960
Speaker 1: had them in our stories, these toxicologists. The toxicologist comes

383
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 1: in and he looks at their blood, their urine, the

384
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 1: stomach wash from both girls. They said that he stayed

385
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 1: up all night analyzing the samples using a thin layer

386
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 1: chromatography and ultraviolet spectro photometry. Nothing I mean, does that

387
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:15,880
Speaker 1: mean anything? Are those just two tests?

388
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:20,639
Speaker 2: Yeah? You know, they're very limited test relative to what

389
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 2: can be done today with instrumental analysis. In that short

390
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,120
Speaker 2: period of time, with that type of testing, it would

391
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 2: be very very narrow range of compounds that the toxicologists

392
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 2: would be able to detect, and not at a very

393
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 2: sensitive level.

394
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,399
Speaker 1: Let's continue on because we'll also have an autopsy that

395
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,199
Speaker 1: could be helpful. So the toxicologist and his boss and

396
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 1: the county medical examiner come to the conclusion, which we've

397
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 1: already said, is that the girls have been poisoned, either

398
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 1: by something so unusual they can't figure out what to

399
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 1: test for, or something so obvious that they're missing it.

400
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 1: Does that make sense to you the way they're saying it,

401
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that's the problem with toxicology.

402
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know, even today, the way the testing

403
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 2: process goes. You know, you can screen for classes of drugs.

404
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 2: You know, you do these presumptive tests. Okay, I'm looking

405
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 2: for opiates, I'm looking for amphetamines, I'm looking for this.

406
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 2: But then if you don't pick the right test, you

407
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 2: can completely miss a substance. And so this is where

408
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 2: getting the pathologists to weigh in in terms of what

409
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 2: the observations are from within the body, what kind of

410
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 2: symptoms are there that can give a clue as to

411
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 2: what compounds potentially could be present. For the toxicologists to go, Okay,

412
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 2: these are the types of tests I need to run

413
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 2: to see if these compounds which give these physical symptoms

414
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 2: are present in these girls' bodies. You know. Part of

415
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 2: you know, what's kind of going through my head is is, Okay,

416
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 2: we have these two girls that were with a group

417
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 2: of kids at a pool for substantial period of time.

418
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 2: They're rushing these tests overnight, which is unusual, and I

419
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 2: got to think that they're looking at this from a

420
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 2: public health standpoint. Was there something that these two girls

421
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,360
Speaker 2: were exposed to? Maybe they're more susceptible to whatever they

422
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,120
Speaker 2: were exposed to, and are the other kids that were

423
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 2: with them at risk and they just haven't developed the

424
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 2: symptoms yet. There's also a concern is okay, what is

425
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 2: in that pool environment that the girls could have been

426
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,640
Speaker 2: exposed to any chemicals? Maybe they went around the maintenance

427
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 2: shed and there are some chemicals that were laying out

428
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 2: that they could have been exposed to. But then also, well,

429
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 2: what's happening at the house, you know, inside the house.

430
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 2: What could they have gotten to whether it be in

431
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 2: the house or outside the house, or is it accidental,

432
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,239
Speaker 2: is it intentional? You know, This is where now the

433
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 2: investigative side, both from a health standpoint as well as

434
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 2: a potential criminal standpoint, needs to start kicking in.

435
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 1: Well, they bring in someone who's very promising, I think

436
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: think his name is doctor Sidney Weinberg, Suffolk County Medical Examiner.

437
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 1: He is the county's first medical examiner. Up until then,

438
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 1: Suffolk County had used the coroner system, you know, which

439
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: meant that the causes of death were determined by a

440
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: network of municipal appointees, some who didn't have a lot

441
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,199
Speaker 1: of training. And doctor Weinberg had been mentored by New

442
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 1: York City's best doctors, including a medical examiner named doctor

443
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: Milton Helpern, who I have also read a lot about.

444
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: I know oftentimes you'll say, we need to know kind

445
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: of what this guy's background is. How much would he know?

446
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,959
Speaker 1: For nineteen seventy four, it sounds like doctor Weinberg is

447
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 1: the best we're going to be able to get, and

448
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 1: he takes this mystery on because he is legitimately scared,

449
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 1: just like you said, will this affect the other six kids?

450
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: Or will this affect other people? What is this? Or

451
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: do we have a killer? Have you had a lot

452
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: of these kind of medical mysteries before or No?

453
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 2: I wouldn't necesscessarily get involved with this type of case.

454
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 2: There would be the times when I'd be getting called

455
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 2: out to a crime scene because there is a question

456
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 2: do we have a crime And sometimes I've gone out

457
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 2: and it turns out no, you know, there was a

458
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 2: suicide versus homicide, or it was an accidental versus homicide.

459
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 2: I do recall one thing that happened, I mean many

460
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 2: decades ago in our coroner's office, and this was happening

461
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 2: in a different medical examiner's office down south where there

462
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: was concern that the coroner or medical examiner's staff were

463
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 2: being exposed to something that the deceased bodies were bringing

464
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: in to the morgue. And you know, so now there

465
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 2: was a medical mystery as to what's going on. And

466
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 2: then there was also a concern that there was a

467
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 2: like a form of hysteria where people were now thinking

468
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: they were exposed and they were developing certain symptoms, but

469
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 2: it was all just more in their mind out of

470
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: the fear, you know, that they had been exposed to something.

471
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: What were the symptoms? I mean, what were people coming

472
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: up with that made people so scared?

473
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 2: I don't even remember, you know that this was where

474
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: there was just something going on that seemed to be

475
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 2: afflicting multiple coroner's offices back in the day, and I

476
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 2: know they were digging into it, and I don't think

477
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 2: they ever got to the you know, the bottom of

478
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 2: it outside of you know, maybe this this massive steria

479
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: type of situation.

480
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: Well that's frightening, that's awful. Well let's get back to

481
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 1: this story, which is a big medical mystery. And the

482
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: reason I gave you all that background you know about

483
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: doctor Weinberg, is because it does sound like he was

484
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: really legitimately an excellent medical examiner, and this is one

485
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: of the very few cases that had stumped him. So

486
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: Debbie is still in a coma. The next day, July fifth,

487
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: and doctor Weinberg and his deputy do an autopsy on

488
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: Angie and they look, they collect samples, they examine her.

489
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: I'm sure just spinning an incredible amount of time. And

490
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: he said they couldn't find a thing, Paul, nothing was

491
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: wrong with we're organs. We talk about blackening, corrosion, all

492
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 1: this stuff with poisons, and he said, perfectly healthy looking girl,

493
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: seven year old girl.

494
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,919
Speaker 2: Wow. You know, part of the autopsy process, of course,

495
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 2: there's the gross anatomy side, where now they're doing the dissection.

496
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 2: They're taking a look and seeing, you know, do the

497
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: organs look healthy. There's no obvious physical abnormalities. You know,

498
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: the color is right, there's no tumor, you know, everything

499
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 2: that they do in an autopsy from a gross anatomy standpoint.

500
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 2: But then they also do a microscopic analysis on the tissues.

501
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 2: So each organ, you know, they will take sections and

502
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 2: then they're using a microtone. They're able to slice the

503
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: tissue and put it under a microscope, put it on

504
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 2: a microscope, slide and look at it under a microscope

505
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 2: to see, you know, do I have any cellular level

506
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 2: issues going on? And I'm assuming that he has done

507
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: that as part of this process and it is still

508
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 2: coming up completely stumped.

509
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: Let me tell you about the thoroughness of this investigation,

510
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: especially for nineteen seventy four. Let me take you through

511
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: everything that they analyzed. So you know, they have Angie's autopsy,

512
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: They've sent out all these samples. They're trying to figure

513
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 1: out they haven't found anything so far, but he's continuing

514
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 1: to do tests. They're really brainstorming about what kind of

515
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: tests they need to run specifically on Angie samples. They

516
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 1: then go to what could be the source, which I'm

517
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: sure you would ask me about. They test the swimming

518
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 1: pool water. Nothing. They look at the other four children, nothing,

519
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: they have no symptoms. The other kids that were in

520
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: the pool, no symptoms at all. They look at the soil,

521
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: They take samples of plants and berries. They collect all

522
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: the chemicals in the house and the cleaning agents. They

523
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: grab some mushrooms that the girls could have eaten. Seven

524
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: and four. My kids would have eaten random mushrooms probably

525
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: at that age. Nothing toads. I don't know if that's

526
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: a licking situation, but toads nothing. They have not found anything,

527
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: and so he says, we need to go bigger, we

528
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: need to go to better labs than what we have.

529
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: So they send samples out to Florida and California, which

530
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 1: I guess at the time had better labs than what

531
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: they had in Long Island. Nothing, and in the meantime,

532
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: Debbie dies. So now you have two little girls who

533
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: are dead. Takes her a week, she's in a coma

534
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: for a week, and then she dies. It's awful.

535
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 2: Well yeah, I mean, imagine, you know, the two girls

536
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 2: have lost their lives. The parents have just lost their daughters. Why,

537
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 2: you know, it's like, what has happened here? It is

538
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: a very concerning medical mystery. M It almost seems like

539
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 2: it's too fast to be something like viral. Right, Yeah,

540
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 2: it's just really interesting.

541
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: Okay, doctor Weinberg. Even though now Debbie has died, they

542
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: of course want to continue on because this, you're right,

543
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: could become some sort of public health crisis, and of

544
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: course it could be an intentional poisoning. We don't know.

545
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: So he starts looking at what they could have been

546
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: exposed to that was not something they had tested as in,

547
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: does the city or the state put out some type

548
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: of poison you know, that could have done something to them.

549
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,959
Speaker 1: So the girls could have been exposed to something called chlordane,

550
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: which is a pesticide. They had been playing the day

551
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: before in their yard at Lake Grove while their neighbor's

552
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: house was being sprayed with chlordine for termite removal. Says exposure,

553
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: whether ingested and hailed or through the skin, causes fatigue, confusion, dizziness,

554
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: loss of coordination, convulsions, unconsciousness, or death.

555
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 2: Ugh. Well, my understanding. Many of the pesticides are focused

556
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 2: specifically to try to disrupt like the nervous systems of insects,

557
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 2: but avoid disrupting such things in humans. You know, you

558
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: don't want to be spraying such a toxic chemical that

559
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 2: a human could be exposed to and all of a sudden,

560
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 2: now you know they are being killed. It appears that

561
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: exposure to chlordane in and of itself isn't going to

562
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: cause anything necessarily very acute, you know, unless you have

563
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: a direct ingestion. And in terms of you know, treating

564
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 2: for termites, of course, it's in a gaseous form, and

565
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: that appears to be the number one route of ingestion

566
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 2: is through breathing this gaseous form of chlordine. So now

567
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 2: it's like, well, could Angie and Debbie have been exposed

568
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: in such an environment, you know, and did they get

569
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 2: such a high level of this that it's now truly

570
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 2: an overdose situation of this pesticide.

571
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: And that's what Dr Weinberg is thinking too. He talks

572
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: to some neighbors, and neighbors say that there have been

573
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: some birds dying in the area and they had suspected

574
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: that it was connected to the chlordane. So Dr Weinberg

575
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: sends those dead birds out and then he also sends

576
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: the girl's tissue samples, both of them now, to see

577
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: if there are any traces of chlordine. Nothing, no clordine.

578
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: I mean, what the hell is this? It just keeps

579
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: going and going and there's more tests.

580
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I like what the pathologist is doing.

581
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 2: I remember back in the day, and I don't know

582
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: if they still do this, and they may be doing this.

583
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: In fact, I think they were doing this when we

584
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 2: were recording one time before near your house where you

585
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: have these trucks driving through emanating these big clouds to

586
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: kill off the mosquitoes, you know, and that's something that

587
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: the city or the state is doing. And of course

588
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,479
Speaker 2: it's like, well, what is that compound that I am

589
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 2: being exposed to? You know, what's not only the short

590
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: term effects, but what's the long term risks to my health?

591
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 2: Something like that. I like his thinking, But why just

592
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 2: Angie and Debbie.

593
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: Right, So Dr Weinberg is so upset over this. He

594
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: thought he had found the answer and he didn't because

595
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: the two year old daughter of the family who had

596
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: this spreading happened, got briefly ill after the spring, but

597
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: totally recovered, and then of course it comes back negative.

598
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: And he said, well, I have to move on, he

599
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: says to the newspaper. I'm sure you'll like this quote,

600
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: he says to the newspaper. We just keep going back

601
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: and back, over and over everything we had. But still

602
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: it's so frustrating. I can only say that I don't

603
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: know at this point. I'm sure this was just for

604
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: somebody who is used to solving cases. Must have been

605
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: maddening for him and scaring for you know, not just

606
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: this family, but just anybody in the area. What is

607
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: going on, No, for.

608
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 2: Sure, and that can be very frustrating, you know, especially

609
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 2: when you're used to being able to solve the puzzle

610
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 2: and when you can't solve the puzzle, you know, that's

611
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: that's frustrating. I've been there multiple times, you know, both

612
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 2: in the lab environment as well as when I got

613
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 2: involved investigatively, you know, and you just get so frustrated,

614
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: and it's such a blow. In many ways, it's a

615
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: blow to your ego because you think I should be

616
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 2: able to get this answer and I can't.

617
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: Because both girls are intellectually disabled, the investigators wonder if

618
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: there is something with their metabolism that would put them

619
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 1: uniquely at risk. I'm not sure if that's the case,

620
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: but I know that he's really grasping at straws. I

621
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 1: think at this point, what do you think about that there?

622
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 2: Of course, we are individuals, and we do have some

623
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 2: differences from one individual to another in terms of how

624
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 2: we metabolize. Even something like alcohol, you know, that could

625
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: be metabolized differently in terms of more quickly in some

626
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 2: individuals in some ethnicities than others. So there is that variability.

627
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 2: And then there could be genetic conditions that could have

628
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 2: faulty metabolic processes, you know, and I don't know these

629
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 2: girls actual genetic condition. You know, is this tri some

630
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 2: to me situation where they, you know, have a multiple

631
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 2: I think, what is it the twenty first chromosome, you know,

632
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 2: and what does that do? You know? From certain metabolic

633
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 2: pathways with certain compounds. So it's for me that makes sense.

634
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 2: You know that there could be something that they are

635
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,240
Speaker 2: more susceptible to, either be due to a genetic condition

636
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 2: or just due to their own inherited metabolic pathways. But

637
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 2: still you've got to figure out is there a compound

638
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,760
Speaker 2: they were exposed to or is there something else going

639
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 2: on here.

640
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: Let's eliminate one more thing. The neighbors and a relative

641
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: of the Logs. So this is back at Angie and

642
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: Debbie's house, not at the Fourth of July party. They

643
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,439
Speaker 1: say that there had been a smell in the air

644
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: around their house. They don't really describe it, but they

645
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 1: just say it was a strong smell. I mean, I

646
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: would assume it's gas is probably what they think it is.

647
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: A relative who had been there said the smell was incredible.

648
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: It made your throat dry. You could smell it in

649
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: the yard and within a two or three house radius

650
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: either way, But the girls had been away from the

651
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: house all day. They were at the kad Nutsen's house

652
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: for hours before the symptoms began. So does that make

653
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: any sense? Is that like carbon monoxide or something?

654
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 2: Well, carbon monoxide is odorless. Do they have more of

655
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: a description of the smell? Did it smell like rotten eggs?

656
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 1: No, they didn't. It just said that there was a

657
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: very strong smell. And that's why I was thinking, unless

658
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 1: it was that specific, it probably was that sort of

659
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: like gas smell. I guess. I don't know, but nobody

660
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 1: had an explanation for it, and it didn't last very long.

661
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: Would it have been delayed if it was something in

662
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 1: the air like that? Would they really have been able

663
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: to go swimming all day long after being exposed to

664
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: whatever this was in the air?

665
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, I think that's going to

666
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 2: be dependent upon what it potentially could have been that

667
00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 2: they're exposed to. I mean, had they been exposed to

668
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: earlier in the day, And of course it takes a

669
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 2: while for whatever they're exposed to for the symptoms to manifest,

670
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: you know, so by the time that it gets towards

671
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 2: the end of the pool party. You know, now they're

672
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 2: really feeling it. You know, when you have this strong,

673
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: fleeting smell, immediately my head goes to drug labs. Somebody's

674
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 2: cooking dope, you know, and now you have an odor

675
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: for a period of time. And then when they're done

676
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 2: with the cooking process and everything's vent you know, is vented,

677
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 2: then it's gone. You know. Was there something like that

678
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 2: going on in a neighbor's house that would be part

679
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 2: of what I would be looking at.

680
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: Well. Doctor Weinberg spends six months trying to figure this out,

681
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: and he is still stumped. He cannot figure it out.

682
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: A reporter asks him about foul play, and he says, quote,

683
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: I'd be remiss in my duties if I didn't think

684
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,399
Speaker 1: that in the back of my mind. But he also said,

685
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 1: it's a very hairy thing to make those kinds of accusation.

686
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: So he's stumped. And even if he thinks really that

687
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: this is foul play, we're so far away from even

688
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 1: figuring this out that I'm sure he's very judicious about

689
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: the way he approaches us with reporters at all. That

690
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,320
Speaker 1: would be not good to accuse of parents of something.

691
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 2: Right, But this is where, you know, I think this

692
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 2: is such an unusual situation, and it's being approached by

693
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 2: the medical Examiner, and there's a public health concern. You know,

694
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 2: he's trying to determine cause of death, but also eventually

695
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: he has to be able to put out manner of death.

696
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 2: You know. So most certainly the death investigators that work

697
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 2: for the Medical Examiner's office, from my perspective, they should

698
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:51,280
Speaker 2: be conducting an investigation, interviewing the parents separately and getting

699
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 2: you know, getting statements in terms of, Okay, what was

700
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 2: going on inside the house, what did each of you do,

701
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 2: where were the girls? Blah blah blah, and at least

702
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: locking that in right now, I don't see where law

703
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 2: enforcement investigators would necessarily be coming in. You know, you're

704
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 2: not pulling in a homicide, you know, these two girls,

705
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 2: unless there was like, yeah, they're really a strong suspicion

706
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 2: of intentional poisoning. That's when you'd be bringing in the

707
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 2: local whether it be a sheriff's jurisdiction or local PD

708
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 2: investigators to interview the parents, interview you know, everybody at

709
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 2: the pool, et cetera, in order to be able to

710
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 2: figure out, okay, is there potential criminal intent going on

711
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 2: here right now, it really is cause a death manner,

712
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 2: a death investigation, and six months later and he still

713
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 2: doesn't have an answer.

714
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: Now he actually does thanks to a lab in that

715
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: glorious state of California that solves at least part of

716
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,240
Speaker 1: this mystery. So this is what they say. They found

717
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: a very heavy presence in the girls, both girls tissue

718
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: of hydrocarbons. Now this is broad. I did not know this.

719
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 1: So what my notes say is in the seventies hydrocarbon

720
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: poisoning is rare, but today some small children are poisoned

721
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,760
Speaker 1: by ingesting hydrocarbons about fifty five thousand times a year.

722
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: Weinberg says he believes the girls died from ingesting something

723
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: like gasoline or kerosene. But hydrocarbons are found in all

724
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: sorts of things, beeswax, cosmetics. But it is there, that is,

725
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: what is in their tissue is hydrocarbons in for it

726
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: to show up, Weinberg says, there has to have been

727
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: a lot in there.

728
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 2: What is that, Well, you know, a hydrocarbons, such a

729
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 2: generic compound. There's so many different versions of hydrocarbons, some

730
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 2: of them are volatile. So when you initially said hydrocarbons.

731
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,760
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, you know how you sniff markers?

732
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: I have not done that, but okay, have you have You've.

733
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 2: Goat I wouldn't say abusively, but when you're a kid,

734
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 2: you know, you smell that that marker smell, you know,

735
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 2: And so now you have that volatile chemical. And then

736
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 2: of course there's intentionally inhaling the gases for us. But

737
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 2: of course hydrocarbons. As you get into the larger molecules

738
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: of hydrocarbons, they are in a liquid form at room temperature,

739
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 2: and you can definitely ingest them that way. You know,

740
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,879
Speaker 2: when he's saying kerosene or gasoline, you know you have that.

741
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 2: You know now I'm immediately going to this grape syrup.

742
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 2: Did the other kids also have that drink?

743
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 1: They did? Everybody did, even the adults had it. Everybody did.

744
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: That's the problem. Okay, Weinberg says, look for you know,

745
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: anything that is hydrocarbon and kerosene, gasoline, anything. And the

746
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,280
Speaker 1: canutsins say there's a charcoal lighter and a can of oil.

747
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: But Weinberg ruled these out. There was a can of gasoline,

748
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: but it was in a locked shed, been there all day. Long,

749
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: and you know, Weinberg keeps going back to for it

750
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: to show up, a fair amount of the substance had

751
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: to be ingested by these kids, and he thinks that

752
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 1: it would have been ingested about two hours before the

753
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: symptoms show up, which is in the middle of swimming.

754
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 1: I'm sure they interviewed people and said were they ever

755
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: out of sight? Six kids, probably one of them got

756
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 1: out to use the restroom, they did something. It sounds

757
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: like to me they must have done something, but they're

758
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 1: not able to locate whatever that sources of hydrocarbons.

759
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 2: And I would think if it was something like gasoline,

760
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 2: there would be such a strong odor, yeah that you know,

761
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 2: the parents, you know, when the girls are kind of

762
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:45,240
Speaker 2: getting lethargic, you know, there would be a strong smell.

763
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 2: And then you know, if they're ingesting so much of it,

764
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 2: I think that the you know, the inside the mouth,

765
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 2: the esovacus, the stomach would possibly be showing some damage

766
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 2: from that type of exposure. And at otome they didn't

767
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 2: see that, right. Yeah, you know, I'm going back to

768
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:11,720
Speaker 2: the foam around Angie's mouth. You know, an orangish tinged foam,

769
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 2: you know, was this orangish color from whatever Angie ingested.

770
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: But she was given mouth to mouth. Wouldn't that taste

771
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: come up with Lucy Knudsen who was the surgical technician

772
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: who gave her mouth to mouth.

773
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 2: Well, that's you know, that's where it's like, if it's

774
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 2: one of these combustible substances. You know, gasoline has a

775
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 2: very strong smell because of course it's it's it's very volatile.

776
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: You know, something like kerosene isn't as volatile, but they

777
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 2: have a strong smell. And so, yes, mouth to mouth,

778
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 2: I would imagine, you know, this adult is putting her

779
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 2: her nose, her mouth right up against Angie, that she

780
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: would be noticing that smell and possibly tasting something. But

781
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 2: there may be the other sources of hydrocarbons that don't

782
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: have such a strong smell or taste.

783
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you this. I don't know if

784
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: this makes sense or not, but if it's something like

785
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: beeswax or anything like that chewable, it would have shown

786
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: up in their stomachs, right, they would have found it

787
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: at the autopsy. Yes, so it's not chewable. And if

788
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: it was drinking gasoline or kerosene, that just doesn't seem right.

789
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 1: It would have corroded the stomach pretty quickly. They would

790
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 1: have thrown up. There's no way you could do that, right.

791
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a hard time thinking that it's drinking

792
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 2: something like gasoline or kerosene.

793
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's inhaling.

794
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: I'm leaning that direction for sure.

795
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: So two little girls, how much would you have to

796
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: inhale of gasoline or kerosene or whatever to cause death?

797
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: It just depends. And then we're back to the metabolism.

798
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: What kind of affected their metabolism have on all this.

799
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 2: Again, that's where you have to rely on these medical professionals,

800
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 2: you know, whether it be the pathologist, the toxicologist. It's

801
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 2: reaching out sometimes to your academics, your PhDs at universities,

802
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 2: you know, maybe some toxicology specialists, finding the right people

803
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 2: who can say, yeah, the symptoms, you know, how they onset,

804
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 2: the autopsy findings, everything. This is the type of compound

805
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 2: and this is the source of the compounds that these

806
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: girls could have been exposed to. And now you have

807
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 2: a direction. Okay, where would they have been exposed to

808
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 2: that within their world that particular day.

809
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: Well, this is a fourteen month investigation, and doctor Weinberg

810
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 1: says it is one of the most bizarre cases I've

811
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: ever seen. And finally, in September of nineteen seventy five,

812
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: which is a year and some change after this happened,

813
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: he gives up and he says the cause of death

814
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: was coma of undetermined circumstances and it's unsolvable as far

815
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: as he's concerned. How horrible. I don't know how much

816
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 1: there was suspicion around the parent. I bet there was,

817
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: but at least he was able to figure out what

818
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: substance it was and it wasn't arsenic or sign or

819
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: anything else where. Traditionally somebody would use fly paper, you know,

820
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 1: that somebody would use to poison kids. This does seem

821
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 1: like an accident, right, That's the way it seems.

822
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 2: He at least has a cause of death. You know,

823
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 2: he's indicating this presence of hydrocarbons is causing this this

824
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 2: coma and the shutdown of their bodies. But the manner

825
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 2: of death is undetermined.

826
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 1: Yep.

827
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 2: You know, it's most definitely not suicide. It could be accidental,

828
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 2: it could be at the hands of another. But he

829
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 2: did the right thing and said it was undetermined. You know,

830
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 2: But I'm now, like, I'm curious as to well, what

831
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 2: exactly did these girls get into, I know, or what

832
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 2: we're given to them. You know, it's I mean to

833
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 2: lose your two young daughters quickly and you don't have

834
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: a clue as to what happened.

835
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 1: I hate unsolved mysteries. It drives me crazy. I can't

836
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: stand it. And I am not a huge fan of

837
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: medical mysteries, but this was really interesting. You know. I

838
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 1: wasn't sure about this case because it's not your traditional

839
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: true crime story, and I talked to our producer Alexis

840
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:19,720
Speaker 1: about it, and she said, this is a good case

841
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 1: for you guys, you should do it. So I feel

842
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 1: like I'm closer to answers after talking to you about it.

843
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: But boy, this poor family, My goodness.

844
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 2: Well I always you know, this is a nineteen seventy

845
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 2: four case, and you know, this is the era of

846
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 2: cases that I worked from the criminal side, you know,

847
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 2: going back to these unsolved homicides and having fifty years

848
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 2: of advances in terms of technology, in terms of just

849
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 2: better knowledge of case circumstances. I kind of wonder like

850
00:47:54,400 --> 00:48:01,240
Speaker 2: with this medical mystery, you get now a toxicologist, another

851
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 2: medical examiner, and they would in essence open this up

852
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 2: as a cold case, and is there something that whether

853
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 2: it be within the documentation or whether there's still preservation

854
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 2: of these girls tissues that could be done today in

855
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 2: order to get an actual answer. So that's what I'm

856
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 2: kind of curious about, because I would want to.

857
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:25,399
Speaker 1: Know, well, this was an interesting case. Maybe I'll start

858
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 1: looking at medical mysteries in the future. I feel like

859
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: the last few cases we've had have been pretty heavy

860
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: with toxicology, so I look forward to continuing down that

861
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 1: road with you. I think the more the more that

862
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: we do these cases, the real weird ones like this too,

863
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 1: not necessarily the criminal profiling, but the really getting into

864
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: forensics and the tools available and eliminating things and causes

865
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 1: of death and all of that. Just it helps me

866
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: with my job, and I know it helps you too.

867
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 1: So this has been a good one for me. Paul Hols,

868
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 1: thank you.

869
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: Oh well, you know, it sounds like I'm going to

870
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 2: have to have a toxicologist on speed dial as we're

871
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 2: talking about these types of cases.

872
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 1: Need to have your hand on that eighteen ninety toxicology

873
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: book or whatever you have herbs and remisies. That's right, Okay, Well,

874
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 1: I'll see you next week.

875
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 2: All right sounds good, Kate, this has.

876
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: Been an exactly right production for our sources and show

877
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried Bones Sources.

878
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

879
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

880
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

881
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

882
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

883
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

884
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

885
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 1: ary Bones Pod.

886
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,720
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

887
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

888
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

889
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life life Solving

890
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: America's Cold Cases is also available now