WEBVTT - Gary Katz 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.480 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Sex Podcast. 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:17.520 My guest today is music producer Gary Katz. You known 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.600 from the Steely Dana albums. He did the first Gaucho, 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:24.759 We work with Tensee Ce so many other greats. Gary. 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:26.960 Good to have you here, Nice to be hippo. Nice 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:29.400 to meet you. So how did you meet the guys 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:34.120 in Steely Dan in front of Us? I was in 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:38.200 New York and my best friends were a singing group 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:41.440 called Jay and the Americans who are having hit after 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.120 hip hop singles. And I was sort of like the 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:48.800 fifth wheel. Wherever they went, I went, And they were 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:52.519 going into places you know that I wanted to be 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:57.200 in in studios with Lieber and Stoller, and I was 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.520 close friends with all of them, and one of them, 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:03.120 can he Vans. I was working with Donald and Walter, 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.840 and I had gotten a job at Africa Embassy with 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.160 Joseph e Levine and I was actually producing my first record. 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.600 We both lived in Brooklyn and we would drive in together. 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:17.840 And I got done early one night and I called 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:20.520 and I said ready, and he said, now come on here. 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:22.920 I'm still I'm still working. And when I worked in 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:28.080 I met Donald and Walter and they Kenny was doing 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:31.920 what I guess they considered demos to be able to 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:37.000 uh have people here and get a deal. And so 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:40.959 I from the moment I heard their music, which is 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:43.960 very much different than what you know is Steely Dan, 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:49.440 I was a fan. So how was there music different? 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:54.920 It was it just structurally in the way they went 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:59.760 about creating, you know, songs and structure and hooks, and 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:04.080 it was, you know, it was a fabulous form that 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:08.200 evolved into what you know to be Steely Dan. So 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:12.440 how did they ultimately become Steely Dan? And what was 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:16.560 your role in that? I who was out of work 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:22.320 in Brooklyn. I was hanging around the music business, mainly 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:28.040 through my Jane Americans friends, and I got a call 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:31.640 one night from a friend at Dunhill Records who said, 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:35.440 somebody got fired here. Why don't you write the presidential letter? 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:38.919 And I said, you want me to write a cold letter? Ready? 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:41.399 He said, just write him a letter and I'll talk 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:45.040 to him. I wasn't in the best frames of mind. 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:48.400 I was being able to get work and through the 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.520 cost of the evening, my wife at the time just 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.200 kept saying, write the guy a letter, Write the guy 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:58.760 a letter, so I did, and I wrote, Dear j 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:01.840 writing this letter to you right now is a much 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:03.960 bigger pain in the ask for me than it is 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.200 for you sitting in your chair reading it. Uh, this 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.000 is my name. I've worked with Bobby Darren if you 0:03:10.040 --> 0:03:14.360 have any interest at all. And so j Laska called 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.000 me and said he thought he was still laughing, and 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:20.400 there was a ticket at the airport. And fifteen hours 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:25.200 later I had a career, and having just having the 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:29.239 ability to move to California and have a job, opportunities 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:33.560 opened up. Okay, so did you sign Steely Dan at 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:37.160 ABC Records? There was no Steely Dan at ABC Records. 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:40.600 There was, which continues and I sort of read about 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:44.160 it this week and my ex partner Richard Perry's book. 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:48.680 But Donald Walter was signed with Jay in the Americans 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:54.960 production company, and they and I became good friends over 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:58.320 the time because they didn't really have work except they 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.000 were writing on their own and they were part of 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.080 the backup band for Jami the Americans for fifty dollars 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:09.720 a night, um, And so you know, I would see 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.480 Donald and Walter most every day, one way or another. 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:16.960 I would bike right up and we'd sit around just 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:21.760 hanging out, listening to music and whatever. And Donald was 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:26.599 working in Miami and called me and said, so, what's 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:28.880 going on. How the meeting go? I said, I got 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:34.320 a job. He said, please get me out of here. 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:42.119 So over time they had to negotiate a away out 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:46.320 from the contract that they had, which they did, and 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:51.320 they came to ABC as staff writers, not a band. 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:56.559 There was no band. Steve Barry, who's a well known 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:03.200 pitmaker and the my mentors, was pushing the grassroots in 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:07.120 Hamilton Joe Frank and he thought he loved their music 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:11.800 and thought they could write songs for him, which they 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:13.920 did try to do, but it just wasn't a really 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.800 good marriage between what they wrote and what they were 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:20.840 looking for. And I went to Stephen. I said, Steve, 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.440 let me put a band together. Let me make a 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:28.240 band with these guys, and so we piece by piece. 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:34.039 Steve said good. They supported us. Uh, A fabulous guy 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:38.440 named Lee Young Senor who's Lester Young's brother. I was 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.080 a fan of the band. It was the you know 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.039 VP of A and R. And he found ways to 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:47.640 help us out with gear that we didn't have money for, 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:52.760 and he was he really supported us and we created 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:56.520 a band, and then ultimately how did they get signed? 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:58.640 They were signed as writers? How did you become a band? 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.040 They became a end by Steve and and I going 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:04.440 to Jay last and saying it's now going to be 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:08.080 a band, and they negotiated the deal as a group. Okay, 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:10.560 let's go back a couple of chapters. How do you 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.679 know Jay in the Americans? We went to high school 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:18.040 together Rasmuss in Brooklyn. Uh well, some of them weren't 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:21.640 fit in uh Bell Harbor and by the Beach, and 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:25.800 Howie and I and then Sandy. We became good friends. 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:30.359 And there's still my some of my closest friends. We 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:34.400 have lunch once a week or two. Okay. So legendarily 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.479 J Black, the original singer in the singer of all 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:41.359 the hits of J and the Americans, ultimately got in 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:45.039 financial trouble and he no longer owns the name. Can 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:48.159 you tell us anything about that? Yeah, there was a 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:53.839 well for one thing, Jay Black as you call him David, Okay, 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:59.080 So J Black's real name is David Dave Black. How 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:03.400 did Dave Black become J Black? Because Jay he was 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:06.680 not the original singer. And when they had their first 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:11.320 hits She Cried, which was a huge hit. That was 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:18.760 a singer named Ja Trainer, and soon thereafter which I've 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:22.840 still never quite understood. We still laugh about it. They 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:25.800 made a change and they he brought in the new 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:31.280 J and they just kept having hits, big hits. Okay, 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:33.240 you have members in the band. How did it end 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:38.960 with between them and that J? Probably not as well 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:44.320 as everyone one might have liked. So what happened to 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:48.800 your friends in music subsequent to that? Jay Black leaving 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:53.560 nothing that continue to work as J and the Americans. 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:57.920 Last week they were in I think Springfield, Massachusetts. They 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:00.840 just work. They have a new J. I'm sorry whose 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:05.400 name is really Jay as it turns out, but they 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:07.520 have a new Ja has been there with them, might 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.800 say maybe ten twelve years now, something like that, and 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:13.840 they continue to play. And have they ever had to 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:16.520 have day jobs or they've been daying the Americans from 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:22.320 high school day jobs? No, they don't have day jobs. 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:27.600 They oh Jay and the Americans. Okay, so you were 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.520 in high school in Brooklyn. What was the music scene 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:33.800 like there and how did you get hooked on the music? Well? 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:36.920 I was you know, you could only hear what they 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:39.720 played so I heard music. You know, it was how 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:42.160 much is that dog in the window? And that's a more? 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:47.600 And you know, you just got to appreciate whatever that was. 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:50.160 And one and I used to go up on my 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:55.080 roof with a pack of New Kent's cigarettes. I was 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:59.080 about thirteen, and the transistor radio and I turned it 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:01.600 on one day and they was this guy named Alan Freed, 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:07.840 and I heard, uh, maybe Leen, and I thought I 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:10.480 was sweating, but it was actually the blood running out 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.960 of the side of my ear. I just freaked out. 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:18.080 It just took one piece of music. And then I'd 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:20.800 go on the roof every day and I listened to 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.440 Alan Freed from the moment he signed on until off 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:26.160 and I cut to your bow. Diddley and Ruth Brown 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:30.600 and Little Richard and my favorite part of that. Alan 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:33.480 Freed used to do these holiday shows at the Brooklyn 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:38.200 Powamount Theater. They became just extravagant as block. You could 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.160 do it in Christmas and there'd be a block, you know, 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:46.199 block long lines in four degree weather. And I would 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:49.480 go and I'd see on one bill Um, you know, 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:52.920 Little Richard and Fats Domino and Buddy Holly and Bo Diddley, 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:55.800 and a bunch of platters and all these groups, and 0:09:55.840 --> 0:10:00.520 I was just mesmerized. The manager of the of the 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:04.480 Brooklyn Paramount was a friend of my dad's and his 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:09.480 name was Eugene Plashette, and his daughter is Susan Pischett, 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:14.880 who became a well known actress, not the least of 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:19.000 which was Bob Nuhaut's wife. And so we were in 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:22.400 the same age. And there were seven shows a day. 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:25.400 So they would the show would take maybe an hour 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:28.320 and a half, whatever it was, they would empty the 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:32.880 theater twenty minutes later the next bunch would come in. 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.320 So Susan and I would go to her dad's office 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.920 like twenty ft away and when the show started again. 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:43.240 So I saw that show eight times a day for 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:47.280 six days and things like that. There were other shows, 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:52.160 and I just, you know, that's what I wanted to do. Well, 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.360 I wanted to play ball, but I stopped growing and 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.160 the other passion I had was music. How good a 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.839 ball player were you? I was pretty okay. So what 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:05.559 did your parents do for a living? My dad owned 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:10.440 a hot, very high end men's clothing store adjacent to 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:16.160 the Well eventually adjacent to the St. Regis in New York. Okay. 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:20.280 And your mother was at home always with my dad Okay, 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:24.640 in the in the shop, inseparable yep. And how many 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.640 kids in the family, me and my sister, and which 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:31.280 one is older? I am? Okay. So growing up if 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:35.160 your parents with the shop, was it relatively hands off? 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.280 You could do what you wanted. I only wanted to 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:41.080 play balls, so she always knew was and you know, 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:43.000 she might go in the shop in the store at 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:46.679 eight and come home maybe three thirty or whatever it was. 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.680 But I was in the street playing ball, well, across 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:54.800 the street in the temple in the winter, in the gym. Okay, 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:59.560 what kind of student were you? Terrible? Not? Well? I was, 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:01.880 And I was an okay student up to a point, 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:05.000 and then I just really look. I didn't go to 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:08.760 school for a semester. There was a pool hall to 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:14.120 two blocks down called Spinelli's that I frequented daily. I 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:17.480 would stand at the corner to go into school and 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:20.840 then I walked by schooling down the stairs into the 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:25.880 pool room for semester, and I would have graduated. I 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:31.160 graduated with Bob Streisan and a bunch of other well 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:35.400 known people, but I hadn't Mono and I was in 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:39.000 the hospital and graduation day. But I did graduate, and 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:41.760 I went to n y U thereafter, although first I 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.839 went to Illinois College where I played ball for a while, 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.000 and then I didn't like it there at all and 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:52.720 came home and Thanksgiving and then how long did you 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:56.440 stay at U? Two and a half years. It was 0:12:56.559 --> 0:13:01.040 during the Vietnam War. I never took a student deferment 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:04.880 because if you took a student deferment, the army had 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:07.640 right to grab you up to you with thirty six. 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:10.760 If you didn't take a student deferment, they only had 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:14.560 you till twenty six. So I never did. And I 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:18.600 got drafted in one thing led to another, and I didn't. 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:22.040 I wasn't in school after that. Okay, you got drafted. 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:24.600 Did you go into the army? No? How did you 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:29.600 get out? You found ways those days? Okay, so you 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:33.320 get drafted, you stopped going to school, You get out? 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.040 What's your next step? I got a job as an 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:41.000 insurance salesman for Frudential. I can't believe I did that, 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:45.320 but they paid you not to sell insurance, but just 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.640 to get people to sign an application that they would 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:54.480 talk to you about insurance. That was easy. Enough, and I, uh, 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:56.880 I did that for a little while. Actually the last 0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:01.360 day I did that, Kenny Vance, old friend from Jay 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:05.240 and the Americans. You asked about day jobs, that I 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:09.480 have day jobs, right. Kenny was concerned, and so he 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:11.160 was saying, so what are you doing, and you know, 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:12.719 he knew what I was doing. And I said, and 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:14.959 they pay you, you know, just for guys signing an 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:18.040 app He said, ookay, I'll go with you. This is 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.120 actually he was only a block from the Fool Hall. 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:27.280 So um. We went to this gentleman's house. He was 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:35.200 seventy ish. I'm pitching the life insurance and he kept 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:39.920 telling me that he had been turned down frequently for 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:46.680 a heart condition. And I said, that's okay, signed here. 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:49.920 And that was the last day I did that. Kenny 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:54.400 and I left and I was too something to do 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:58.000 that again. Okay, so you quit that in the next 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:04.280 step nothing. I was hanging around six fifty Broadway because 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:06.800 Jay and the Americans were, and they were you know, 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:10.160 they were just involved in stuff going on, and so 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:16.600 I had access through them two places I wanted to be. 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:21.280 It wasn't premeditated, you know, if they were going somewhere else, 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:23.560 I probably would have been somewhere else, but I was. 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:26.480 That's where they were, and I was doing and I 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:33.920 was really fortunate to be in that, uh scene at 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:37.240 the time. It was just fabulous. And where were you 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:41.640 living at this point in Brooklyn? At home with your parents? No, 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:48.560 I got married. What age were you when you got married? Three? 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:52.360 And when you get married, usually someone says, hey, you 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:56.400 gotta start supporting the family. I got a job. We 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.760 hadn't apart. We got an apartment on Eastern Parkway, a 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.560 neighborhood right where I grew up. And I got a job. 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:07.840 So this is the same insurance job or is this? Yeah? Okay? 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.480 So but then you stop working, you're just hanging out 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:12.920 with Jay and the Americans? What is your? Dad helped 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:17.480 me out there was unemployment. I found odd jobs here 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:22.800 and there to do, most of them legal, and I 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.640 just kept My dad wanted me to take over the store. 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:30.640 He was wanting to retire, and I just never had 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:33.360 any interest. I don't dress the way the clothes. I 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:38.400 never dressed in the style of his store. Um, and 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:42.080 I just didn't care. And I remember I said to him, 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:46.240 dead when a guy comes in here and you think 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.440 he's gonna walk out and look really well, I know 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:53.800 you like that. I don't give a ship, So I 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:57.560 just I struggled until I wrote that letter to Jay Alaska. 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:01.000 And I'm telling honestly, I had I didn't know how 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:04.280 it was going to turn out. I was hoping. Okay, 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:07.400 what'd your parents say about your quitting college? Nice Jewish boy? 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:16.639 My My parents were remarkably support him. And how did 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.399 you know this woman to marry her? She was my 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.800 girlfriend from high school? Okay, so you get married? Who? 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:26.560 Actually Richard Perry dated before I even knew her. Okay, 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:30.199 how wo did she say about going to California? She 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:32.199 was all for it. We were all for them. Mean, 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.359 it was an opportunity for one journ a living, a 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:40.600 real living, and you know California. I had been to 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:48.040 California once because Kenny was going there and staying at 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:56.879 Richard's house, and so I went along, and um, I 0:17:56.960 --> 0:17:59.320 liked it. You know. It was in Laurel Canyon, lived 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:03.720 up on wonder Land. It's a nice place and it 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.879 was Okay. I wasn't head over heels, but it was nice. 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:09.800 And when I had an opportunity to come back with 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:15.360 a job, it wasn't the worst thing I had heard. Okay, 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:17.600 go back, how did you know Richard? You said you 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:25.280 were partners. Well, Richard just wrote a book, and actually 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:29.080 I know Richard's not feeling well these days, which I 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:34.600 feel really badly about. But either he didn't have a 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:39.840 really clear memory, or maybe Kenny and he is still friends. 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:47.240 But he wrote that Kenny introduced us, which he did, 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:52.280 saying Richard had just gotten out of graduated Michigan and 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:55.679 I was in the place. I was two of us 0:18:55.760 --> 0:19:00.320 wanting to be in the music business. And what happened 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:04.879 was we talked a few times. I went to his house, 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.919 we talked. My mother gave me four thousand dollars, his 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:13.119 mother gave him four thousand dollars, and we went to 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:20.200 six fifty Broadway and we opened an office. Somehow, Richard 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:24.480 recollected it as I came to him and said, you 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:27.080 don't need any money. I have ten thousand dollars, but 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:32.240 I don't have any talent. So I didn't expect you 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.959 to ask me that. But I appreciate being able to 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:39.280 correct the record. So what did you and Richard do 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:43.800 together in this office? We we opened a company. Oddly enough, 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:46.600 be course, it's the title of his book called Cloud 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:54.280 nine Productions, and we we're looking for talent. We you know, 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.359 we just thought we could do it. We you know, 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:58.639 we'd open an office and people would come to us. 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.879 You know, sixteen fifty there was you know, well we 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:06.600 literally shared a role next door with Kama Sutra, which 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.440 I know lots of people won't know, but they were 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:16.440 the pinnacle of production companies in the late sixties early 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:20.199 seventies between you know, they just had hit after they 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.959 had Loving Spoonful and John Sebastian, and they befriended us 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:27.679 Hardy Ripped, who's a well known music business person and 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:35.479 who definitely was a benefactor at the time, uh Bert Burns. 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:38.400 The building was full of people, you know that were fabulous. 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.200 So we thought we'd just go in and read make 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:48.240 a go of it. And it wasn't so easy. Um. 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:52.320 We found an act and and made a single. They 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:56.480 were all singles, and made a single with this one act. 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:58.760 Audi called one day and said, I have a group 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.280 called the Vast Cells. Why don't you guys go in 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:03.359 and do a track? Richard and I went in. Did 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:09.560 Bob Dylan song Crawl through this Window? Um? And we struggled. 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:14.760 You know, financially and trying to find that artist or 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:18.560 writer that we wanted. And it a couple of years 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.520 didn't pan out, and Richard went to California and I 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:24.400 stayed in New York. Now, you told Jay Lasker you'd 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:29.240 worked with Bobby Darren, So what's that story? I um, 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:32.560 I applied for a job I heard about through to 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:38.160 the people. At sixteen fifty. Bobby owned a publishing company, 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:43.640 a successful publishing company called t M Music. It had 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:48.600 Buffy St Marie Catalog, a very successful writer and artist 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:51.480 named Van McCoy. At the time he was a wonderful 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:54.760 artist and various songs. And as it turned out, there 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:59.480 were two job openings and one of my really close 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:03.560 friends in high school who remained my friend and until 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:05.800 he sadly passed away a year and a half ago, 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:11.800 Eddie Lambert. Um. There were two job openings at TAM Music, 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:15.520 and we got on both independently of each other. Um. 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:19.680 Bobby was a fabulous guy. I mean I loved working there. 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:24.760 Companies run by a music business veteran named Ed Burton, 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:29.840 and we all got along. It was great. And Robert 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:33.560 Kennedy got killed and Bobby was one of the main 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:38.760 figures in New York State for the election, and he 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:45.520 freaked out, sold the company, got in a van, drove 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:51.560 to Big Sir and wrote, my favorite Bobby Down in music. 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:54.440 He put out an album under his real name called 0:22:54.600 --> 0:23:00.239 Robert Walden Cassado, which is available online somewhere, and if 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:02.959 you're a Bobby Down fan, you want to find that 0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:06.560 record and listen to Who's just He played most everything. 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:11.760 He was so much more gifted than the Las Vegas 0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:16.280 Bobby Down that he was. And when he sold the company, 0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:20.720 he sold it to some people. I knew, m hmm 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:23.919 what he allowed us to do. I wanted to produce. 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:26.920 Bobby knew I wanted to produce, and he would say, hey, listen, 0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:28.879 if you can get a deal with the company and 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:32.800 you can use the catalog to promote, you know, the company, 0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:35.240 go ahead and do it. So I did. We I 0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:39.159 found a really nice guy, great singer. I went to 0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:42.639 Larry Utall at Amy Malla. He said, yeah, go in 0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:46.119 and you know, cut a single or two. So I did. 0:23:46.560 --> 0:23:49.960 One other artist somebody would we did? Uh. Petty wasn't 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:52.240 as interested in that as I was, but we did 0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:57.560 it collaboratively. Um. When he sold the company somebody I 0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:04.200 knew pretty well. Uh that person installed someone who came 0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:07.400 in in the morning and said, okay, guys, so right now, 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:10.800 all we are is a publishing company. Just get these 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:14.120 songs plugged. I'm not interested in you going in the studio. 0:24:14.240 --> 0:24:18.000 That's not the business we're in. And I went to 0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:22.359 lunch it with my friend and Jack Dempsey's doing lunch 0:24:22.960 --> 0:24:25.040 and I went up and I quit, And I know 0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:28.239 it wasn't the right thing to do, but as it 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:37.679 turns out, it worked out. Okay. Now, in your tenure 0:24:37.760 --> 0:24:40.320 with Bobby Darren, did you actually work with Bobby on 0:24:40.359 --> 0:24:44.080 any of his music? No? Okay. Whatever happened to the 0:24:44.080 --> 0:24:47.520 clothing store, my dad so well, he was. He was 0:24:47.600 --> 0:24:50.560 in that business for forty or five years. He ran 0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:56.120 a store called Nat Lewis and the forties and fifties 0:24:56.119 --> 0:24:58.640 when it was the store in New York, and then 0:24:58.680 --> 0:25:01.280 when that Lewis, Didy opened the store of his own 0:25:01.440 --> 0:25:05.679 on Seventh and he ran it till he sold it 0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:14.160 to someone um about five years before it closed, and 0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:17.080 for many years thereafter the sign of the store was 0:25:17.520 --> 0:25:20.680 still up called De Lasi. I would go to Sony, 0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:24.280 for instance, which was on Madison and fifty six, and 0:25:24.359 --> 0:25:27.080 the store was on fifty five between Fifth and six, 0:25:27.400 --> 0:25:29.520 and I'd often walked down the block and I'd look 0:25:29.600 --> 0:25:32.920 up and I would every time I worked by take 0:25:32.960 --> 0:25:35.640 a picture and I'd send it to my mom and say, Mom, 0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:39.080 the store still up. Where are you? He was a 0:25:39.400 --> 0:25:43.040 twelve to four in the morning guy. That was his life. 0:25:43.040 --> 0:25:47.600 The day he retired, he was done, moved to Florida. 0:25:47.640 --> 0:25:51.000 They played golf and he never did it again. Okay, 0:25:51.040 --> 0:25:54.000 you talked about going to high school Rasmus, and you say, 0:25:54.040 --> 0:25:57.119 Barbara Stris, did you know all these people you know? 0:25:57.240 --> 0:26:00.560 To this minute, even sharing the building with her on 0:26:00.760 --> 0:26:05.560 multiple occasions in l A Studios, I never met her 0:26:05.600 --> 0:26:09.680 to this minute, I have never met her. Okay, So 0:26:09.720 --> 0:26:15.359 now you're in l A. You're working with uh David 0:26:15.400 --> 0:26:19.200 and Donald and Walter. What else are you doing at ABC? 0:26:20.640 --> 0:26:23.480 Just general A and R work, you know, the A 0:26:23.640 --> 0:26:26.680 and R department. Well, there was a guy named Ed 0:26:26.800 --> 0:26:32.720 Michelle who's just a wonderful jazz producer and oversaw all 0:26:32.760 --> 0:26:37.720 the jazz collection. Um he was in. He was one 0:26:37.880 --> 0:26:40.320 in one room at the end of the hall. They 0:26:40.440 --> 0:26:44.359 hid him. I was the other. I was sort of 0:26:44.400 --> 0:26:48.080 in New York. You know, they were used to Steve Barry. 0:26:49.200 --> 0:26:51.960