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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Sex Podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is music producer Gary Katz. You known

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Speaker 1: from the Steely Dana albums. He did the first Gaucho,

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Speaker 1: We work with Tensee Ce so many other greats. Gary.

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Speaker 1: Good to have you here, Nice to be hippo. Nice

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Speaker 1: to meet you. So how did you meet the guys

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Speaker 1: in Steely Dan in front of Us? I was in

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Speaker 1: New York and my best friends were a singing group

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Speaker 1: called Jay and the Americans who are having hit after

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Speaker 1: hip hop singles. And I was sort of like the

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Speaker 1: fifth wheel. Wherever they went, I went, And they were

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Speaker 1: going into places you know that I wanted to be

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Speaker 1: in in studios with Lieber and Stoller, and I was

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Speaker 1: close friends with all of them, and one of them,

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Speaker 1: can he Vans. I was working with Donald and Walter,

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Speaker 1: and I had gotten a job at Africa Embassy with

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Speaker 1: Joseph e Levine and I was actually producing my first record.

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Speaker 1: We both lived in Brooklyn and we would drive in together.

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Speaker 1: And I got done early one night and I called

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Speaker 1: and I said ready, and he said, now come on here.

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Speaker 1: I'm still I'm still working. And when I worked in

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Speaker 1: I met Donald and Walter and they Kenny was doing

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Speaker 1: what I guess they considered demos to be able to

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Speaker 1: uh have people here and get a deal. And so

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Speaker 1: I from the moment I heard their music, which is

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Speaker 1: very much different than what you know is Steely Dan,

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Speaker 1: I was a fan. So how was there music different?

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Speaker 1: It was it just structurally in the way they went

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Speaker 1: about creating, you know, songs and structure and hooks, and

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Speaker 1: it was, you know, it was a fabulous form that

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Speaker 1: evolved into what you know to be Steely Dan. So

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Speaker 1: how did they ultimately become Steely Dan? And what was

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Speaker 1: your role in that? I who was out of work

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Speaker 1: in Brooklyn. I was hanging around the music business, mainly

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Speaker 1: through my Jane Americans friends, and I got a call

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Speaker 1: one night from a friend at Dunhill Records who said,

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Speaker 1: somebody got fired here. Why don't you write the presidential letter?

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Speaker 1: And I said, you want me to write a cold letter? Ready?

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Speaker 1: He said, just write him a letter and I'll talk

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Speaker 1: to him. I wasn't in the best frames of mind.

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Speaker 1: I was being able to get work and through the

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Speaker 1: cost of the evening, my wife at the time just

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Speaker 1: kept saying, write the guy a letter, Write the guy

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Speaker 1: a letter, so I did, and I wrote, Dear j

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Speaker 1: writing this letter to you right now is a much

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Speaker 1: bigger pain in the ask for me than it is

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Speaker 1: for you sitting in your chair reading it. Uh, this

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Speaker 1: is my name. I've worked with Bobby Darren if you

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Speaker 1: have any interest at all. And so j Laska called

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Speaker 1: me and said he thought he was still laughing, and

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Speaker 1: there was a ticket at the airport. And fifteen hours

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Speaker 1: later I had a career, and having just having the

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Speaker 1: ability to move to California and have a job, opportunities

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Speaker 1: opened up. Okay, so did you sign Steely Dan at

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Speaker 1: ABC Records? There was no Steely Dan at ABC Records.

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Speaker 1: There was, which continues and I sort of read about

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Speaker 1: it this week and my ex partner Richard Perry's book.

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Speaker 1: But Donald Walter was signed with Jay in the Americans

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Speaker 1: production company, and they and I became good friends over

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Speaker 1: the time because they didn't really have work except they

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Speaker 1: were writing on their own and they were part of

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Speaker 1: the backup band for Jami the Americans for fifty dollars

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Speaker 1: a night, um, And so you know, I would see

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Speaker 1: Donald and Walter most every day, one way or another.

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Speaker 1: I would bike right up and we'd sit around just

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Speaker 1: hanging out, listening to music and whatever. And Donald was

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Speaker 1: working in Miami and called me and said, so, what's

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Speaker 1: going on. How the meeting go? I said, I got

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Speaker 1: a job. He said, please get me out of here.

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Speaker 1: So over time they had to negotiate a away out

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Speaker 1: from the contract that they had, which they did, and

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Speaker 1: they came to ABC as staff writers, not a band.

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Speaker 1: There was no band. Steve Barry, who's a well known

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Speaker 1: pitmaker and the my mentors, was pushing the grassroots in

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Speaker 1: Hamilton Joe Frank and he thought he loved their music

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Speaker 1: and thought they could write songs for him, which they

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Speaker 1: did try to do, but it just wasn't a really

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Speaker 1: good marriage between what they wrote and what they were

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Speaker 1: looking for. And I went to Stephen. I said, Steve,

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Speaker 1: let me put a band together. Let me make a

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Speaker 1: band with these guys, and so we piece by piece.

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Speaker 1: Steve said good. They supported us. Uh, A fabulous guy

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Speaker 1: named Lee Young Senor who's Lester Young's brother. I was

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Speaker 1: a fan of the band. It was the you know

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Speaker 1: VP of A and R. And he found ways to

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Speaker 1: help us out with gear that we didn't have money for,

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Speaker 1: and he was he really supported us and we created

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Speaker 1: a band, and then ultimately how did they get signed?

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Speaker 1: They were signed as writers? How did you become a band?

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Speaker 1: They became a end by Steve and and I going

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Speaker 1: to Jay last and saying it's now going to be

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Speaker 1: a band, and they negotiated the deal as a group. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's go back a couple of chapters. How do you

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Speaker 1: know Jay in the Americans? We went to high school

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Speaker 1: together Rasmuss in Brooklyn. Uh well, some of them weren't

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Speaker 1: fit in uh Bell Harbor and by the Beach, and

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Speaker 1: Howie and I and then Sandy. We became good friends.

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Speaker 1: And there's still my some of my closest friends. We

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Speaker 1: have lunch once a week or two. Okay. So legendarily

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Speaker 1: J Black, the original singer in the singer of all

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Speaker 1: the hits of J and the Americans, ultimately got in

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Speaker 1: financial trouble and he no longer owns the name. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell us anything about that? Yeah, there was a

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Speaker 1: well for one thing, Jay Black as you call him David, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So J Black's real name is David Dave Black. How

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Speaker 1: did Dave Black become J Black? Because Jay he was

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Speaker 1: not the original singer. And when they had their first

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Speaker 1: hits She Cried, which was a huge hit. That was

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Speaker 1: a singer named Ja Trainer, and soon thereafter which I've

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Speaker 1: still never quite understood. We still laugh about it. They

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Speaker 1: made a change and they he brought in the new

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Speaker 1: J and they just kept having hits, big hits. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you have members in the band. How did it end

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Speaker 1: with between them and that J? Probably not as well

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Speaker 1: as everyone one might have liked. So what happened to

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Speaker 1: your friends in music subsequent to that? Jay Black leaving

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Speaker 1: nothing that continue to work as J and the Americans.

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Speaker 1: Last week they were in I think Springfield, Massachusetts. They

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Speaker 1: just work. They have a new J. I'm sorry whose

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Speaker 1: name is really Jay as it turns out, but they

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Speaker 1: have a new Ja has been there with them, might

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Speaker 1: say maybe ten twelve years now, something like that, and

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Speaker 1: they continue to play. And have they ever had to

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Speaker 1: have day jobs or they've been daying the Americans from

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Speaker 1: high school day jobs? No, they don't have day jobs.

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Speaker 1: They oh Jay and the Americans. Okay, so you were

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Speaker 1: in high school in Brooklyn. What was the music scene

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Speaker 1: like there and how did you get hooked on the music? Well?

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Speaker 1: I was you know, you could only hear what they

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Speaker 1: played so I heard music. You know, it was how

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Speaker 1: much is that dog in the window? And that's a more?

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Speaker 1: And you know, you just got to appreciate whatever that was.

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Speaker 1: And one and I used to go up on my

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Speaker 1: roof with a pack of New Kent's cigarettes. I was

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Speaker 1: about thirteen, and the transistor radio and I turned it

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Speaker 1: on one day and they was this guy named Alan Freed,

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Speaker 1: and I heard, uh, maybe Leen, and I thought I

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Speaker 1: was sweating, but it was actually the blood running out

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Speaker 1: of the side of my ear. I just freaked out.

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Speaker 1: It just took one piece of music. And then I'd

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Speaker 1: go on the roof every day and I listened to

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Speaker 1: Alan Freed from the moment he signed on until off

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Speaker 1: and I cut to your bow. Diddley and Ruth Brown

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Speaker 1: and Little Richard and my favorite part of that. Alan

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Speaker 1: Freed used to do these holiday shows at the Brooklyn

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Speaker 1: Powamount Theater. They became just extravagant as block. You could

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Speaker 1: do it in Christmas and there'd be a block, you know,

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Speaker 1: block long lines in four degree weather. And I would

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Speaker 1: go and I'd see on one bill Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: Little Richard and Fats Domino and Buddy Holly and Bo Diddley,

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Speaker 1: and a bunch of platters and all these groups, and

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Speaker 1: I was just mesmerized. The manager of the of the

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Speaker 1: Brooklyn Paramount was a friend of my dad's and his

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Speaker 1: name was Eugene Plashette, and his daughter is Susan Pischett,

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Speaker 1: who became a well known actress, not the least of

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Speaker 1: which was Bob Nuhaut's wife. And so we were in

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Speaker 1: the same age. And there were seven shows a day.

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Speaker 1: So they would the show would take maybe an hour

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Speaker 1: and a half, whatever it was, they would empty the

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Speaker 1: theater twenty minutes later the next bunch would come in.

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Speaker 1: So Susan and I would go to her dad's office

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Speaker 1: like twenty ft away and when the show started again.

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Speaker 1: So I saw that show eight times a day for

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Speaker 1: six days and things like that. There were other shows,

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Speaker 1: and I just, you know, that's what I wanted to do. Well,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to play ball, but I stopped growing and

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Speaker 1: the other passion I had was music. How good a

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Speaker 1: ball player were you? I was pretty okay. So what

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Speaker 1: did your parents do for a living? My dad owned

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Speaker 1: a hot, very high end men's clothing store adjacent to

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Speaker 1: the Well eventually adjacent to the St. Regis in New York. Okay.

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Speaker 1: And your mother was at home always with my dad Okay,

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Speaker 1: in the in the shop, inseparable yep. And how many

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Speaker 1: kids in the family, me and my sister, and which

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Speaker 1: one is older? I am? Okay. So growing up if

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Speaker 1: your parents with the shop, was it relatively hands off?

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Speaker 1: You could do what you wanted. I only wanted to

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Speaker 1: play balls, so she always knew was and you know,

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Speaker 1: she might go in the shop in the store at

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Speaker 1: eight and come home maybe three thirty or whatever it was.

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Speaker 1: But I was in the street playing ball, well, across

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Speaker 1: the street in the temple in the winter, in the gym. Okay,

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Speaker 1: what kind of student were you? Terrible? Not? Well? I was,

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Speaker 1: And I was an okay student up to a point,

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Speaker 1: and then I just really look. I didn't go to

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Speaker 1: school for a semester. There was a pool hall to

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Speaker 1: two blocks down called Spinelli's that I frequented daily. I

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Speaker 1: would stand at the corner to go into school and

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Speaker 1: then I walked by schooling down the stairs into the

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Speaker 1: pool room for semester, and I would have graduated. I

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Speaker 1: graduated with Bob Streisan and a bunch of other well

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Speaker 1: known people, but I hadn't Mono and I was in

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Speaker 1: the hospital and graduation day. But I did graduate, and

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Speaker 1: I went to n y U thereafter, although first I

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Speaker 1: went to Illinois College where I played ball for a while,

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Speaker 1: and then I didn't like it there at all and

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Speaker 1: came home and Thanksgiving and then how long did you

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Speaker 1: stay at U? Two and a half years. It was

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Speaker 1: during the Vietnam War. I never took a student deferment

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Speaker 1: because if you took a student deferment, the army had

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Speaker 1: right to grab you up to you with thirty six.

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Speaker 1: If you didn't take a student deferment, they only had

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Speaker 1: you till twenty six. So I never did. And I

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Speaker 1: got drafted in one thing led to another, and I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't in school after that. Okay, you got drafted.

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Speaker 1: Did you go into the army? No? How did you

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Speaker 1: get out? You found ways those days? Okay, so you

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Speaker 1: get drafted, you stopped going to school, You get out?

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Speaker 1: What's your next step? I got a job as an

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Speaker 1: insurance salesman for Frudential. I can't believe I did that,

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Speaker 1: but they paid you not to sell insurance, but just

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Speaker 1: to get people to sign an application that they would

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Speaker 1: talk to you about insurance. That was easy. Enough, and I, uh,

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Speaker 1: I did that for a little while. Actually the last

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Speaker 1: day I did that, Kenny Vance, old friend from Jay

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Speaker 1: and the Americans. You asked about day jobs, that I

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Speaker 1: have day jobs, right. Kenny was concerned, and so he

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Speaker 1: was saying, so what are you doing, and you know,

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Speaker 1: he knew what I was doing. And I said, and

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Speaker 1: they pay you, you know, just for guys signing an

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Speaker 1: app He said, ookay, I'll go with you. This is

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Speaker 1: actually he was only a block from the Fool Hall.

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Speaker 1: So um. We went to this gentleman's house. He was

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Speaker 1: seventy ish. I'm pitching the life insurance and he kept

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Speaker 1: telling me that he had been turned down frequently for

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Speaker 1: a heart condition. And I said, that's okay, signed here.

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Speaker 1: And that was the last day I did that. Kenny

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Speaker 1: and I left and I was too something to do

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Speaker 1: that again. Okay, so you quit that in the next

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Speaker 1: step nothing. I was hanging around six fifty Broadway because

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Speaker 1: Jay and the Americans were, and they were you know,

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Speaker 1: they were just involved in stuff going on, and so

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Speaker 1: I had access through them two places I wanted to be.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't premeditated, you know, if they were going somewhere else,

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Speaker 1: I probably would have been somewhere else, but I was.

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Speaker 1: That's where they were, and I was doing and I

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Speaker 1: was really fortunate to be in that, uh scene at

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Speaker 1: the time. It was just fabulous. And where were you

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Speaker 1: living at this point in Brooklyn? At home with your parents? No,

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Speaker 1: I got married. What age were you when you got married? Three?

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Speaker 1: And when you get married, usually someone says, hey, you

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Speaker 1: gotta start supporting the family. I got a job. We

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Speaker 1: hadn't apart. We got an apartment on Eastern Parkway, a

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Speaker 1: neighborhood right where I grew up. And I got a job.

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Speaker 1: So this is the same insurance job or is this? Yeah? Okay?

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Speaker 1: So but then you stop working, you're just hanging out

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Speaker 1: with Jay and the Americans? What is your? Dad helped

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Speaker 1: me out there was unemployment. I found odd jobs here

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Speaker 1: and there to do, most of them legal, and I

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Speaker 1: just kept My dad wanted me to take over the store.

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Speaker 1: He was wanting to retire, and I just never had

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Speaker 1: any interest. I don't dress the way the clothes. I

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Speaker 1: never dressed in the style of his store. Um, and

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Speaker 1: I just didn't care. And I remember I said to him,

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Speaker 1: dead when a guy comes in here and you think

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Speaker 1: he's gonna walk out and look really well, I know

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Speaker 1: you like that. I don't give a ship, So I

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Speaker 1: just I struggled until I wrote that letter to Jay Alaska.

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Speaker 1: And I'm telling honestly, I had I didn't know how

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Speaker 1: it was going to turn out. I was hoping. Okay,

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Speaker 1: what'd your parents say about your quitting college? Nice Jewish boy?

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Speaker 1: My My parents were remarkably support him. And how did

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Speaker 1: you know this woman to marry her? She was my

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Speaker 1: girlfriend from high school? Okay, so you get married? Who?

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Speaker 1: Actually Richard Perry dated before I even knew her. Okay,

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Speaker 1: how wo did she say about going to California? She

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Speaker 1: was all for it. We were all for them. Mean,

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Speaker 1: it was an opportunity for one journ a living, a

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Speaker 1: real living, and you know California. I had been to

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Speaker 1: California once because Kenny was going there and staying at

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Speaker 1: Richard's house, and so I went along, and um, I

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Speaker 1: liked it. You know. It was in Laurel Canyon, lived

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Speaker 1: up on wonder Land. It's a nice place and it

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Speaker 1: was Okay. I wasn't head over heels, but it was nice.

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Speaker 1: And when I had an opportunity to come back with

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Speaker 1: a job, it wasn't the worst thing I had heard. Okay,

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Speaker 1: go back, how did you know Richard? You said you

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Speaker 1: were partners. Well, Richard just wrote a book, and actually

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Speaker 1: I know Richard's not feeling well these days, which I

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Speaker 1: feel really badly about. But either he didn't have a

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Speaker 1: really clear memory, or maybe Kenny and he is still friends.

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Speaker 1: But he wrote that Kenny introduced us, which he did,

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Speaker 1: saying Richard had just gotten out of graduated Michigan and

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Speaker 1: I was in the place. I was two of us

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Speaker 1: wanting to be in the music business. And what happened

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Speaker 1: was we talked a few times. I went to his house,

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Speaker 1: we talked. My mother gave me four thousand dollars, his

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Speaker 1: mother gave him four thousand dollars, and we went to

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Speaker 1: six fifty Broadway and we opened an office. Somehow, Richard

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Speaker 1: recollected it as I came to him and said, you

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Speaker 1: don't need any money. I have ten thousand dollars, but

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Speaker 1: I don't have any talent. So I didn't expect you

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Speaker 1: to ask me that. But I appreciate being able to

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Speaker 1: correct the record. So what did you and Richard do

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Speaker 1: together in this office? We we opened a company. Oddly enough,

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Speaker 1: be course, it's the title of his book called Cloud

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Speaker 1: nine Productions, and we we're looking for talent. We you know,

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Speaker 1: we just thought we could do it. We you know,

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Speaker 1: we'd open an office and people would come to us.

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Speaker 1: You know, sixteen fifty there was you know, well we

301
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Speaker 1: literally shared a role next door with Kama Sutra, which

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Speaker 1: I know lots of people won't know, but they were

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Speaker 1: the pinnacle of production companies in the late sixties early

304
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,199
Speaker 1: seventies between you know, they just had hit after they

305
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Speaker 1: had Loving Spoonful and John Sebastian, and they befriended us

306
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,679
Speaker 1: Hardy Ripped, who's a well known music business person and

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Speaker 1: who definitely was a benefactor at the time, uh Bert Burns.

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Speaker 1: The building was full of people, you know that were fabulous.

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Speaker 1: So we thought we'd just go in and read make

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Speaker 1: a go of it. And it wasn't so easy. Um.

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Speaker 1: We found an act and and made a single. They

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Speaker 1: were all singles, and made a single with this one act.

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Speaker 1: Audi called one day and said, I have a group

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Speaker 1: called the Vast Cells. Why don't you guys go in

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Speaker 1: and do a track? Richard and I went in. Did

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Speaker 1: Bob Dylan song Crawl through this Window? Um? And we struggled.

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Speaker 1: You know, financially and trying to find that artist or

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Speaker 1: writer that we wanted. And it a couple of years

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Speaker 1: didn't pan out, and Richard went to California and I

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Speaker 1: stayed in New York. Now, you told Jay Lasker you'd

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Speaker 1: worked with Bobby Darren, So what's that story? I um,

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Speaker 1: I applied for a job I heard about through to

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Speaker 1: the people. At sixteen fifty. Bobby owned a publishing company,

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Speaker 1: a successful publishing company called t M Music. It had

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Speaker 1: Buffy St Marie Catalog, a very successful writer and artist

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Speaker 1: named Van McCoy. At the time he was a wonderful

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Speaker 1: artist and various songs. And as it turned out, there

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00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: were two job openings and one of my really close

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Speaker 1: friends in high school who remained my friend and until

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Speaker 1: he sadly passed away a year and a half ago,

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Speaker 1: Eddie Lambert. Um. There were two job openings at TAM Music,

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Speaker 1: and we got on both independently of each other. Um.

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Speaker 1: Bobby was a fabulous guy. I mean I loved working there.

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Speaker 1: Companies run by a music business veteran named Ed Burton,

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Speaker 1: and we all got along. It was great. And Robert

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00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 1: Kennedy got killed and Bobby was one of the main

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00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: figures in New York State for the election, and he

338
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: freaked out, sold the company, got in a van, drove

339
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 1: to Big Sir and wrote, my favorite Bobby Down in music.

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00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 1: He put out an album under his real name called

341
00:22:54,600 --> 00:23:00,239
Speaker 1: Robert Walden Cassado, which is available online somewhere, and if

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00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,959
Speaker 1: you're a Bobby Down fan, you want to find that

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00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 1: record and listen to Who's just He played most everything.

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00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 1: He was so much more gifted than the Las Vegas

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Speaker 1: Bobby Down that he was. And when he sold the company,

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00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: he sold it to some people. I knew, m hmm

347
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 1: what he allowed us to do. I wanted to produce.

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00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 1: Bobby knew I wanted to produce, and he would say, hey, listen,

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Speaker 1: if you can get a deal with the company and

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00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 1: you can use the catalog to promote, you know, the company,

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Speaker 1: go ahead and do it. So I did. We I

352
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 1: found a really nice guy, great singer. I went to

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Speaker 1: Larry Utall at Amy Malla. He said, yeah, go in

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Speaker 1: and you know, cut a single or two. So I did.

355
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 1: One other artist somebody would we did? Uh. Petty wasn't

356
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: as interested in that as I was, but we did

357
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Speaker 1: it collaboratively. Um. When he sold the company somebody I

358
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 1: knew pretty well. Uh that person installed someone who came

359
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 1: in in the morning and said, okay, guys, so right now,

360
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 1: all we are is a publishing company. Just get these

361
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,120
Speaker 1: songs plugged. I'm not interested in you going in the studio.

362
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Speaker 1: That's not the business we're in. And I went to

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Speaker 1: lunch it with my friend and Jack Dempsey's doing lunch

364
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: and I went up and I quit, And I know

365
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,239
Speaker 1: it wasn't the right thing to do, but as it

366
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Speaker 1: turns out, it worked out. Okay. Now, in your tenure

367
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Speaker 1: with Bobby Darren, did you actually work with Bobby on

368
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Speaker 1: any of his music? No? Okay. Whatever happened to the

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00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: clothing store, my dad so well, he was. He was

370
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Speaker 1: in that business for forty or five years. He ran

371
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Speaker 1: a store called Nat Lewis and the forties and fifties

372
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Speaker 1: when it was the store in New York, and then

373
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Speaker 1: when that Lewis, Didy opened the store of his own

374
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 1: on Seventh and he ran it till he sold it

375
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 1: to someone um about five years before it closed, and

376
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: for many years thereafter the sign of the store was

377
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,680
Speaker 1: still up called De Lasi. I would go to Sony,

378
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: for instance, which was on Madison and fifty six, and

379
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: the store was on fifty five between Fifth and six,

380
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: and I'd often walked down the block and I'd look

381
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Speaker 1: up and I would every time I worked by take

382
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 1: a picture and I'd send it to my mom and say, Mom,

383
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: the store still up. Where are you? He was a

384
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: twelve to four in the morning guy. That was his life.

385
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: The day he retired, he was done, moved to Florida.

386
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: They played golf and he never did it again. Okay,

387
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: you talked about going to high school Rasmus, and you say,

388
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 1: Barbara Stris, did you know all these people you know?

389
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Speaker 1: To this minute, even sharing the building with her on

390
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: multiple occasions in l A Studios, I never met her

391
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: to this minute, I have never met her. Okay, So

392
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: now you're in l A. You're working with uh David

393
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 1: and Donald and Walter. What else are you doing at ABC?

394
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: Just general A and R work, you know, the A

395
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 1: and R department. Well, there was a guy named Ed

396
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: Michelle who's just a wonderful jazz producer and oversaw all

397
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: the jazz collection. Um he was in. He was one

398
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: in one room at the end of the hall. They

399
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: hid him. I was the other. I was sort of

400
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: in New York. You know, they were used to Steve Barry.

401
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: You know, Steve is one of my closest friends still

402
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: to this day. And I would have nothing, no career

403
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: at all despite JA if Steve didn't here the potential

404
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 1: of Donald and Walter and Steve. So Steve, Steve and

405
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: myself with the A and R Department and Michelle had

406
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: nothing to do with that. He just went to the

407
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 1: village and set in the room with John Coltrane tapes,

408
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 1: which I totally admired and followed him there. Um, so

409
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: I did regular hang our work. People would send tapes

410
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: or I basically waited to go to the studio. And

411
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: were you responsible for signing any of the other acts

412
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: or on ABC records? Well, it was collaborative. But yeah,

413
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: let's say we signed Rufus, which turned out to be TRACKIC.

414
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: I have to think about it for a minute. We

415
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: signed Buffett. Tell me, I mean, I know Jimmy, how

416
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: will tell me the story of signing Jimmy. Jimmy used

417
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 1: to play at the Troubador at night and I would

418
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: go there and sit upstairs, who had a seating upstairs,

419
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 1: and he'd stand on the stage alone and he would

420
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 1: talk to the Carl Reefs who didn't exist every night,

421
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: and I was a fan. Um, I just liked what

422
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: he did, and I would go I'd leave the studio

423
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: and I would go over there and see a set.

424
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 1: And Steve Barry had heard him and we signed him.

425
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: It was a good signing. Do you have any idea

426
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: he would turn into what he was? What he is Juggernaut?

427
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: No as a guy standing on stage, you know, wearing

428
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: a beach outfit, talking to guys who aren't there. But

429
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:45,239
Speaker 1: he didn't come Monday pretty fast, right, Yes, Cooch, we

430
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: signed Crochy and they'll come to me as we talk.

431
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: But we had a very good ruster. Okay, so they're

432
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: at ABC Records. You finally get a deal for what

433
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: turns into Steely Dan. You have Donald and Walter. How

434
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: do you who? How do you form the band? Tell

435
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: me the process of leading up and then going in

436
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: the studio. Well, we would you know, we were not

437
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: any uh priority at the company, any of us. I

438
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: don't mean that they weren't very respectful and nice. But

439
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: for instance, uh, I knew Skunk Baxter from in New

440
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: York because he played on something on the first thing.

441
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: Donald Walter and I ever did with a girl named

442
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: Linda Hoover. And when when we needed a band, I said,

443
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: you know, I know this guy in in Boston. And

444
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: so Skunk came down and played this record with us,

445
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: and I told him I knew a drummer in Boston

446
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: who I loved. I had just made a record with

447
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: him when I was at AFCO and see and he

448
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: was the drummer of that band. And they knew Denny Diaz,

449
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: and I got to know Denny. Denny was a friend

450
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: of theirs in New York. So when they were doing

451
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: their work with Kenny or just doing work alone, Danny

452
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: was a part of Donald and Walter, and so I

453
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: got to meet No Denny through them m hm. And

454
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: so I said to you know, I played Jimmy's music

455
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: for Donald, and uh. They they knew Jeff because he

456
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: played on this record we did. So they came out

457
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: and it was a band. We had Denny. We flew

458
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: Denny out Jeff and how it came out thereafter they

459
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: liked it. Okay, was it called Steely Dan at that point?

460
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: I can't tell you if it was at that point,

461
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: but the point it became Steely Dan was a ride

462
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: up going over Laurel Canyon at night, and we were

463
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: trying to think of names, and somebody said, I think

464
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: Donald or said back seat manipulation, but they were sitting

465
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 1: in the back and that didn't fly. But Walter said

466
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: steely Dan and then elaborated on its significance, and that

467
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: was that. Okay. The first album had another singer, David Palmer.

468
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: How did that come to be? So we did the

469
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: first record. I went to the village with which became

470
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: and still is my home in l A. Nobody heard

471
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: the record, not a soul. Steve Barry never came to studios,

472
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: too busy doing his own records. This is a nice,

473
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: a funny little anecdote that you might appreciate. So we

474
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: finished the record. J Lesker was saying, so am I

475
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: gonna hear this record? And I O this record and

476
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 1: we went into the We were ever in the ABC

477
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: studios at Dunhill. No, I wasn't. There was a small

478
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: room that Steve used every day. It was a wonderful

479
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: wound with little room, and so we said we'd you know,

480
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: we played them this record. So j came in with

481
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: Howard Stock as vice president and Marv Helfer who was

482
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: marketing my very good friend Dennis Lavinthal, who did hear

483
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: the record as we were doing it, because Dennis and

484
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: I became very close friends and he became a fan

485
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: of the music. As we went by, Donald Walter, myself

486
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: and Roger Nichols, there were like eight people in a

487
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: four person room, and we first track we played was

488
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: do It Again. When the track was over, Jay, who

489
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: smoked very long cigars and was sort of a loud,

490
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: voiceterous kind of guy, started banging on the command then

491
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: fucking Jack, fucking back Jack, and Donald, who was standing

492
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: directly behind me, so we're in the middle of the speakers.

493
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: He pokes his finger in my back and says, tell

494
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: him it's called do it Again. I said, Jay, you

495
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: know that's uh, let's do it again. Fuck do it again,

496
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: back Jack, back Jack, Donald, who's getting nervous, now points

497
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 1: me in the back. He said, tell me to do

498
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: it again. The I won't repeat it. But the same

499
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: sequence of events occurred. And if you can never find

500
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: the forty five copy of do It Again, you'll see

501
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: that the only way he would put it out was

502
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: if we said do it again under a parenthesis. Back

503
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: Jack and that that's set up our relationship with Jay.

504
00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: We played the record and they were excited, put out

505
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: do it again. Honestly, not one of us I thought

506
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: these were hit records. I was the biggest fan. I

507
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: stole him. You know, I worked not as a producer,

508
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: but as a fan. I got to hear the music

509
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 1: before anyone else. But we didn't think they were hits.

510
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: It was six minutes long. It was you know, it

511
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: was a hit really quick. And Jay says, so they're

512
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: gonna get ready to go on the road, right, ready

513
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: to go on the road. Go on the road. So

514
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,720
Speaker 1: I go to Donald, I said, so this is what happened.

515
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: He said, I don't go on the road. I I

516
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: I'm not at I miss I'm a writer, I write songs.

517
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: I'm just telling you Jay is gonna he said, go

518
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: and tell him that Stravinsky didn't tour. I knew my

519
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 1: I knew better than to say that. And as you

520
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: could imagine, Jay got his way and down said, what

521
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: what are we gonna do. I'm not going to be

522
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: in front of a band. I mean, I don't do that.

523
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: So you found a singer? Well, Donald said, we can't

524
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 1: have an album and not have somebody on who's then

525
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: going to be the front of the band. So and

526
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: I do really, really really appreciate and like David. He

527
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: was a very nice guy. He couldn't have been more

528
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 1: cooperative and part of what we were doing than he was.

529
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: But I'm sorry that when I hear dirty Work, I

530
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: don't hear Donald. That's just the truth. Dirty Work and Brooklyn.

531
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,240
Speaker 1: We always had a track called Midnight Cruiser that Jimmy

532
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: Harder was going to sing, but we had to put

533
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: David on some tracks so that it wasn't who's that

534
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: strange guy singing the front of the band. That's how

535
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: David Palmer came aback. When the when the when that

536
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: was over again, I say thank you David for everything.

537
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: I said to Donald, no more, you have to sing

538
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 1: all the songs. So, contrary to the legend, ABC didn't

539
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 1: say to get David Palmer. That was between you and Donald. Absolutely, Okay,

540
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: they they they didn't care. Okay. So just so I understand,

541
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: you made a whole album, but you only put out

542
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: do it again, and then when back in the studio,

543
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,839
Speaker 1: you just didn't do it again. You know, I'm cloudy

544
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: on the chronological order of those events. I remember the

545
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: conversations about Donald saying I can't be the front man,

546
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: and my conversation with Donald saying this can't be anymore. Um,

547
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: we might have put through it. You know, in those

548
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 1: days you would drop singles. It is possible we put

549
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 1: out that to like K M. E. T at the

550
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: time and some other states, and then it just blew

551
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: up because we did put David on for those two

552
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: tracks for that reason. Okay, so let's talk about the

553
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: first album, Can't Buy a Thrill. You're in the studio.

554
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,720
Speaker 1: What is your role? What do you do? I can't

555
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: put you know, designated roles. They weren't designated roles. Donald was.

556
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: Donald was the We called him mother, and there was

557
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: a reason for it. We all knew this. Donald's last

558
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: word was the last word. Even Walter knew that. But

559
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: the three of us worked. I know. I didn't do

560
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: anything Donald did, And when it came to listening and doing,

561
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: we did it collectively from day one until the end

562
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 1: of the Nightfly. Okay, so you'll be sitting in the studio.

563
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 1: What might you say, I like that, I don't like it.

564
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: Can we do these two bars again? Uh? When it

565
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: got to vocals, I did the vocals with Donald. I

566
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: had a I created a way to do vocals that Donald,

567
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 1: it was comfortable with and was was productive, and um,

568
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 1: so I did the did I created the vocals with Donald.

569
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: And other than that, I was a third voice in

570
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: the room when somebody was playing, and I liked it

571
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: as much or less than anybody else. And I'd say, so, okay,

572
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: did you have any you say you're talking about two

573
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: bars two seconds, or did you have any musical training

574
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 1: or just picked it up along in the book. When

575
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 1: I was younger, my mother, who had the perfect pitch

576
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,720
Speaker 1: and could play by ear, had me taking piano lessons.

577
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 1: And this was just before Alan freed, and I said, Mom,

578
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 1: I don't want to play Mali Gray. Now. I don't

579
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: care about this. And so the last lesson I had

580
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: was I was pitching for the Police as Letic League

581
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 1: and the baseball field behind the Brooklyn Museum, and my

582
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: mother drove up onto the field in her car and

583
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: yelled out the window that I was going to be

584
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: late from my pianos. And that was my last lesson. Okay,

585
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: so you complete the first album, you know that you

586
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: have reeling in the years. The opening track on the

587
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: other side. The album is mega successful, So where does

588
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: that leave you in the band? You know, one day

589
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: turned into the next day, and there were no like

590
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: you know this day this happened. It just wasn't like that.

591
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: It wasn't a touring band as such, like lots of

592
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: bands were. So Donald is always writing. That's what he

593
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 1: does to this day. I'm sure he write songs. When

594
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: we weren't recording. Donald was home, Walter was home. I

595
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: was in the office. I was making other records. We

596
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: were just living. What's your relationship with any with Donald today?

597
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 1: We spoke a while ago. His mom passed away, which

598
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: I oh really badly about, and spoke to him, and

599
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 1: we don't speak much anymore. Okay, So the second album

600
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: is Countdown to Ecstasy. Many fans, although I'm not one

601
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 1: of them, consider this to be the best record yet

602
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: there were no hits on it. The band went on

603
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 1: the road and stopped touring. So tell me what was

604
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: happening with Countdown to Extacy? Countdown to Ecstasy was actually

605
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 1: no different than Camped by a Thrill. The process of

606
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 1: making the records never really changed until maybe after Pretzel,

607
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 1: when we started doing Pretologic and we had other musicians

608
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:57,720
Speaker 1: that were involved in in the process, but the record

609
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: making really never was my different from one record to

610
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: the next. UM, I don't know why I can't Countdown

611
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 1: didn't have hits on it. I think we thought Showbiz

612
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 1: Kids was was going to be a hit, which it wasn't. Um,

613
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: I don't I have no explanation for it. Like I said,

614
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: we didn't think the first record was going to be hits.

615
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: So did you get any pushback from the label that

616
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: there weren't hits and to make a hit on the

617
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: next record. No, okay, never got pushed back one time.

618
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: I will say that for all of the reputations and

619
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: such of you know j who was this very boisterous,

620
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 1: I never once heard pushback musically he did some some

621
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: couple other things that would just mind bending. But I'll

622
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: share with you if you'd like, actually about his Countdown

623
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 1: to Ecstasy. So if you know the cover, the first

624
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:03,919
Speaker 1: cover was by somebody he assigned, and you know it

625
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: was what it was. And when it got to a

626
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: second record, Donald's girlfriend, Dorothy, who's a very good friend

627
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: of all of us, was a fabulous artist, fabulous creative person,

628
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: and so she drew did he countdown to Ecstasy drawing

629
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 1: which we loved, and it was JD. Jay was Donald

630
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: was scared of Jack sort of, but he said, you

631
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: talked to him. I don't want to talk to him. You.

632
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,240
Speaker 1: So I was the lasers on between Donald and Walter

633
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: and Jay all the time. So he said he has

634
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 1: showed it to Jay. So I did. And if you

635
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: know the drawing, it has these aliens sitting on chairs

636
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 1: at the bottom in space. So I went to Jay,

637
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: had a cigar in his mouth. I put the drawing

638
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: in front of him and he looked at it for

639
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: three or four minutes. He said, so, how many guys

640
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 1: are there? And steely? Then I said, there are five guys?

641
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: You know there are only three guys on the bottom.

642
00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: You Jay, you see this guy that's not Donald? You

643
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: see this guy that's not Walter. Well he was. It

644
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,720
Speaker 1: wasn't quite beside himself, but when he dug his heels

645
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: and there was nothing you could say. So he made

646
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 1: Dorothy I had, by the way, I then had to

647
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: go back to Donald and Dorothy and repeat this nonsense. Thankfully,

648
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,760
Speaker 1: everyone had a good sense of humor. And Jay said,

649
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: if she just puts two white dots on the top

650
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: on the left. I'll count those is two Morgan and

651
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: if you look at the cover you will find two

652
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: more dots at the top and the left of the corner.

653
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: By the way, kras Now, I think bought it from

654
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: Dorothy and it was in his home for years. Okay,

655
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: so that album comes out, you know, that's the period

656
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: of time where the band says they're not going. Donald's

657
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: is not going on the road anymore. No, he didn't

658
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 1: quite a say. He says, I don't want to go,

659
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: and nobody bothered us. Jay didn't. Honestly, Jay was hands off. Okay,

660
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: but you got a whole band. What is the rest

661
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: of the band living on? Ah? There you go. Well,

662
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: one of the band, Jeffrey Skunk, was a very outgoing

663
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 1: kind of guy and made lots of friends and he

664
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: would play with this guy or that guy, or he

665
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: would find ways to do things. Denny, Denny and Jimmy

666
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: waited for us to record again. Denny's a very high

667
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 1: end um creates apps and he always did that, so

668
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: he was always working tech work. He was. He was

669
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: extremely tech. Donald and I never did anything that had

670
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: to do with tech. It was all Walter, Denny and

671
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,439
Speaker 1: Roger Okay, how did you end up working with Roger

672
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 1: Nichols as the engineer? So when we got you know,

673
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: when Steve said, yeah you can, you know, put the

674
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 1: band together. When we did, the only place to rehearse

675
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: we had an empty out the accountants office at six o'clock.

676
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 1: We'd have to carry all the files. And Roger Nichols

677
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 1: was the midnight to six am lacquer cutter. He was

678
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 1: the only available person who could turn on anything for us,

679
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 1: and he turned into Roger Nichols. Yeah, I mean that's amazing,

680
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: even known for pristine sounds. So let's get to the

681
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:33,879
Speaker 1: third album, Pretzel Logic, another monster success, Ricky, don't lose

682
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: the number. But from a fan's perspective, that's where the

683
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 1: jazz elements start to creep in. Was this We did

684
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: East St. Louis to Okay, but the sound changed a

685
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 1: little bit. So you're saying, on that record it was

686
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 1: all the original five members plus uh, Jim Gordon. There

687
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: was some exterior are your members people who came in

688
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: and added to that record? And that record was recorded

689
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 1: in a barn with an oak tree in the middle

690
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: of the studio. And where's that Cherokee studios? Do you

691
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: know who they are, of course. Well, Cherokee studios used

692
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,479
Speaker 1: to be out in like where Manson was, literally out

693
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: that way. We were only a few minutes from wherever

694
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 1: that place was. And the Robs a bunch of broad

695
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 1: a couple of brothers, three brothers, they had a studio.

696
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 1: Roger was friendly with them. I went out there, I

697
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: made a I made a fabulous deal with the Robs.

698
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: I paid them six thousand dollars for four months of

699
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: work every day, which obviously was not even the penny

700
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: on the dollar, not even. And in turn, the day

701
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 1: the record came out, they took the coverage to the

702
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: bank and they opened up on Fairfax. That's how it happened.

703
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: I only knew fair of facts. Okay, now you have

704
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: another hit. Does that change the vibe or the energy

705
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: in the room amongst the grass? No, it was, it

706
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 1: was a constant. It wasn't it was always what it was,

707
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: not high nor lower of it. Um everybody, I mean,

708
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 1: we no doubt everybody's excited that, you know, the records

709
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: are hit, but not the demeanor of of any of

710
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 1: the guys. We were different, you know, some of the

711
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: guys were one way, some were were different and but

712
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: it was generally even level. Okay. So Keatie Lied is

713
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 1: the album the legend is and if I remember, if

714
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 1: I have the right album, were you cut it at

715
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 1: something pristine level? And then something happened to the tapes

716
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 1: that certainly did so what happened so because we were always,

717
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: when I say we, Roger, Walter, Dan always pushing to

718
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 1: how much technically better can we get this? Or what

719
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: can we do to make it sound even better? Um,

720
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: They because we spent so much money in the studio,

721
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:36,280
Speaker 1: ABC wanted a piece of it. And so they allowed

722
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: us us, meaning Roger and collectively to build a studio

723
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 1: down the hall from Steve Studio. And so we built

724
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 1: a room that we really liked, Roger Roger Bille. They

725
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 1: allowed us to buy this remarkably expensive bosondof a piano

726
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: Chris Donald I wanted to use that. They basically gave

727
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: us caught blunt to build a studio, and in the

728
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: course of it, Walter and Danny Roger whatever, they didn't

729
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: love that. They said, I don't love the way Dolby sounding.

730
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 1: There's a new system. It's called DBX. Let's try that, Okay,

731
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 1: So they went out down Walter and Denny and Roger

732
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: went to West l A Music and they bought these

733
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 1: speakers called Magna players, which were just Incredi electro magnetic,

734
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 1: you know, like infinities. They bought eight of them and

735
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 1: they lined them up in front of the behind the console,

736
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,280
Speaker 1: in front of the windows. It was like, you couldn't

737
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: hear anything better than that in the in the ways

738
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:59,760
Speaker 1: we were working. It was fabulous and I love that record.

739
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 1: It also was the first time we were able to

740
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 1: use more than one machine because Roger said, you know,

741
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 1: I can hook up two machines with this thing called

742
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: Adam Smith and Fagan, you could have thirty two tracks. Well,

743
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,879
Speaker 1: you couldn't say anything better than Donald than that, So

744
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 1: we did, and we would work on a master and

745
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: a slave. When it came to mixing. We didn't realize

746
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 1: what the process was going to be until we actually

747
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 1: did it. So what you would have to do is

748
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: the the You'd run one of the machines and the

749
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:54,760
Speaker 1: other would catch up to it and they'd sink together.

750
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 1: It wasn't like just pushing a button. They all worked together.

751
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 1: What the master ran and the slave would follow it.

752
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: I'm only repeating what they said. Please don't ask me

753
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:10,240
Speaker 1: what that means, except when he when you were saying, okay,

754
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 1: you know that's good, let's want it again. Here's what

755
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: would occur every time er er er h h h h,

756
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 1: and then you could push play. It was maddening. The

757
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 1: record was done, we make copies, We go home. Fagin

758
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:41,280
Speaker 1: calls me around three in the morning. He said, something's broken.

759
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: What's the matter? He said, in the middle of I'm

760
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 1: pretty sure bad sneakers, where I hit a chord instead

761
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: of the piano decay, it's crescender ing. I'll save you

762
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 1: all the between. But they all agreed that the dB

763
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: X noise reduction did not decode the programming as it

764
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 1: encoded it. I was really upsetting, so we took the modules.

765
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 1: Roger Walter and I got on a late night flight,

766
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 1: went to Boston. We were picked up. It was like midnight.

767
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: They drove us to the dB X factory. There was

768
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 1: a guy there with like a jeweler's glass. He took

769
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,759
Speaker 1: the module. He took the module, he opened it up.

770
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 1: Roger handed him the tape he was playing it and

771
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 1: there were eight sensors that made up this piece of gear.

772
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,360
Speaker 1: And he took a little greenie and as it was

773
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: playing he would tweak the screws in it and look

774
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 1: at us and say, is that any better? And we

775
00:53:54,680 --> 00:54:02,799
Speaker 1: knew we were fill in the blink. Went home, told

776
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 1: Fagan what happened because he could he couldn't. He wasn't

777
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: comfortable having to deal with all this bad news. Tell

778
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: me what the story is, and we did, and yes

779
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 1: there was a decoding issue. We had three options. Fagan said,

780
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 1: we could scrap the album. I said, that's not in it.

781
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 1: That's not a possibility. We could we mix it, that's

782
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,839
Speaker 1: not a possibility. Or we could put the fucking thing out.

783
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 1: And that's what we did. So the imperfections are in

784
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:53,359
Speaker 1: the final record. There was no alternative. YEP, Okay, great

785
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,400
Speaker 1: record because I always love that record. That your gold

786
00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 1: teeth too, etcetera. Okay, at what point band members wake

787
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 1: up and say, wait a second, this isn't a band anymore.

788
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 1: One day in the village recorder, Donald and Walter was

789
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 1: sitting or standing behind the console and Jeffrey and Jimmy

790
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 1: came in while they were there, and Jeffrey said, you know, O'donald,

791
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 1: Jimmy and I've been writing songs and Donald said, this

792
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: is not a democracy. That's the answer to your question. Well,

793
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 1: do the other guys literally take a high cott it in?

794
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 1: It was, it was gradual. We hot we we Donald

795
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:51,280
Speaker 1: and Walter wanted to be able to at this point

796
00:55:52,239 --> 00:56:00,400
Speaker 1: have the ability to expand what they were doing and

797
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 1: have additional people add to what we wore the records

798
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 1: we were making. Jeffrey over time got very friendly with

799
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 1: the Doobies, who were friends of Donald that they had

800
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,839
Speaker 1: toured together. Don't I think we opened for them? They

801
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 1: got friendly. Jeffrey was playing with them, and honestly, it

802
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 1: was gradual and then a phone call and Jeffrey had

803
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 1: the ability to become part of the Doobie Brothers that

804
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:34,319
Speaker 1: were playing three hundred and forty two nights a year.

805
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:42,879
Speaker 1: Jeffrey likes playing, okay, and Danny and the drummer, well Danny,

806
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:47,760
Speaker 1: it was always you know, and he was always part

807
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 1: of the with Donald and Walter. He he came with

808
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:56,960
Speaker 1: them and um, he played where it was appropriate, and

809
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 1: he was always very supportive of Donald and Walter and

810
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,959
Speaker 1: Jimmy looks for work here and there. He's a very

811
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 1: good drummer. Okay, So the next album, the Royal Scam,

812
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, their lines like you know, uh,

813
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 1: the you know turned up, the Eagles, the neighbors are listening.

814
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 1: You always think of these guys being isolated. So to

815
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:21,840
Speaker 1: what degree were you now part of the front line

816
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 1: camp with Irving A's off and the Eagles and all

817
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 1: these people do what degree were you part of a

818
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 1: scene at that time? I'm I can safe for myself

819
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: and I think without any problems. Talk for Donald and Walter.

820
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 1: We were never part of a scene just we would

821
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 1: Nor were we as news Week said, eclusive we were

822
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 1: all the time. We just worn out at the places

823
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 1: where people get seen, and no we were. I wasn't

824
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 1: at least, and again I feel safe saying it's just not.

825
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 1: Wasn't our interest um and the Eagles that So here's

826
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 1: how that started. We finished our record. We were new

827
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 1: in l A. I had no idea what to do

828
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 1: to Master. So I went to Steve and I said,

829
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 1: so where do I Where do I go to Master?

830
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,840
Speaker 1: He said, go to this guy Doug Sex up in

831
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 1: Mastering Lab. You know, he's the guy in town. So

832
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 1: I made an appointment and we got there and there

833
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: were these plastic chairs in the hallway. We were sitting

834
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 1: and the girl came out and she said, the client

835
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:42,959
Speaker 1: who has been here is running a few minutes late.

836
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 1: Do you mind will just be another ten fifty minutes?

837
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 1: She said, no, it's okay. It was Donald Walter, myself

838
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: and Denny and Roger. So she opened the door to

839
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,919
Speaker 1: go back into tell Doug that we were out there.

840
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 1: And as she opened the door, you could hear take

841
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 1: it easy, and Fagan, thankfully, who wasn't that big, hit

842
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: me as hard as he could in the arm and

843
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:17,640
Speaker 1: said we stink. So that was how Eagles and Steely

844
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 1: sort of meshed. It was that first day. I think

845
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 1: we put our records out the same week our first records.

846
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 1: We had no idea. I didn't know who they were.

847
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: I don't even think I knew who Irving was at

848
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 1: the time. And so you know, over the years, you know,

849
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: we were a popular band in that city. The Eagles

850
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: were a popular band in that city. They had the

851
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 1: same manager. Just it was you know, there was a

852
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 1: sympatico regarding just for those reasons. Okay, So the Royal scam,

853
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 1: that's really when you start getting a lot of other

854
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 1: studio musicians. Got Bernard Purdy, you got Larry Carlton, How

855
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 1: did that all happen? Let's call some guys we really

856
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 1: like driving in the car, you know, we heard rock

857
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 1: Steady and said, why don't we hire that Ben? And

858
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 1: we did. I love those guys. They're still my really

859
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 1: close friends. The only other podcast I've done, not that

860
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: it matters that I did him, but Chuck Rayney does

861
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: one for Inner City Youth in Dallas, and I worked

862
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 1: with him on some things there. But these they're still

863
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 1: my friends. They were great musicians. They were they were

864
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 1: the other camp. There was a camp of at least

865
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 1: Claw and Kuncle and Andrew Gold and Warren Zevon and

866
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 1: Linda and and there was that set of musicians. And

867
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 1: we worked with you know, Rainey and Purdy and Paul

868
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 1: Griffin and Victor Feldman and it's just a different bunch

869
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 1: of musicians. But it was all cold quality. Had no

870
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 1: previously say I like that song, I'm gonna call that person. No,

871
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:20,000
Speaker 1: I became friendly with Well, I knew Rainy and Uh.

872
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:23,800
Speaker 1: I can't remember how I met Paul Griffin and Purty,

873
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 1: but I feel like I've known them my whole life. Okay,

874
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 1: this is when, or maybe it's on Asia thereafter the

875
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:37,440
Speaker 1: band starts getting reputation recording a million things but only

876
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:41,440
Speaker 1: using a limited number. That's not true. So what is

877
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 1: the treatment? But there were there were a few, and

878
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:49,400
Speaker 1: I say a few handful of tracks we didn't use,

879
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 1: but just a handful we didn't pursue tracks at some

880
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 1: point that Donald didn't feel good about. Okay, you're saying

881
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 1: it's sort of a dictatorship with Donald? What was Walter's rule?

882
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 1: It's not a dictatorship. We just all knew. The best

883
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 1: thing I can say is one time I came to

884
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 1: l A. I stated at a sort of uh you know,

885
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 1: um no frills hotel there. When I came in, they said,

886
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:26,520
Speaker 1: you know, Walter's upstairs. I went, wow, okay, I checked in.

887
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 1: He was on in three eighteen. I was in three sixteen.

888
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,000
Speaker 1: I called said, hey, what's going on. We talked for

889
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 1: three hours on the phone. I never saw him on

890
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 1: the trip, And during the conversation he said, so listen,

891
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:42,640
Speaker 1: you and I both know will never work with anyone

892
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 1: more talented than Fagan again. And that's the best answer

893
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: I can give you. Oh, I just knew he wasn't

894
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 1: a dictatorship. Just for one. It's not his style Okay,

895
01:02:55,800 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 1: so then comes easier and there's a you know, it

896
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 1: takes a little bit more time. To the audience, it

897
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 1: seems somewhat in a different direction. Is this conscious or

898
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:11,440
Speaker 1: you're just making another Steely Dan record. We're making another

899
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,160
Speaker 1: Steely Dan record. And those are the songs Donald number

900
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 1: all they came with. There was always another Steely Dan record.

901
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 1: We may have done some things in in making the

902
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:27,440
Speaker 1: record that we're not exactly like if they were, but

903
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 1: when we when we came to the studio every day,

904
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 1: it was the same as when we did Camp bire

905
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 1: a thrill. Okay, So these are the songs. We'll get

906
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 1: the appropriate people to play on them, exactly exactly. The

907
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 1: album comes out and literally becomes legendary. What was it

908
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:48,480
Speaker 1: like being on the other side of the glass in

909
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:53,840
Speaker 1: the making of it or and in hearing about it both, Well,

910
01:03:54,880 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 1: the songs were just spectacle pilla as a whole, As

911
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 1: a whole unit individually, they were. They were as good

912
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 1: as Donald and Walter ever wrote. And we were confident

913
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 1: so that for instance, one day we're doing thinking about

914
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 1: the solo of Asia and Donald or one of them said, well,

915
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:26,840
Speaker 1: called Wayne Shorter, and that's what they would say to

916
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:29,360
Speaker 1: me at times, call so much as if you know,

917
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 1: it was like right, right, But that's what it was like.

918
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 1: I would call. I called Wayne Shorter. He said, when

919
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:38,520
Speaker 1: do you want me there? What do you want me

920
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 1: to do? I know your work? So he came in.

921
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 1: For instance, I remember in the back room at the village, Um,

922
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:51,480
Speaker 1: we ran the track of I Don't Know two three times.

923
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:55,600
Speaker 1: He played every time he blows. You know it's something great,

924
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 1: but he said, he said, hold on, you guys, go

925
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 1: get lunch and give me a half hour and let

926
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:07,600
Speaker 1: me write something. And there you go. And were you

927
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:13,200
Speaker 1: overwhelmed by the reception? What I mean the fact that

928
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 1: the album was so big beloved, you know. To say

929
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 1: I wasn't overwhelmed, you know, makes me sound you know,

930
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 1: blase about it all. And honestly, as I said, I

931
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 1: worked as the number one fan every day. Um, but

932
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 1: it was like making the next record I did. Like

933
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 1: when people said fabulous work or whatever. They would say, yeah,

934
01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 1: it's nice to hear. Who wouldn't want to hear that?

935
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:44,960
Speaker 1: But that's not the best story of Asia. Well tell

936
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 1: me the best story. Well, when we got to the

937
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:53,640
Speaker 1: song Asia, you know, it has this significant drum solo.

938
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:57,920
Speaker 1: Most of the drummers we used, which was every drummer

939
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:01,720
Speaker 1: we could think of over the time, I couldn't think

940
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:03,680
Speaker 1: of one of them who was going to play those

941
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:09,320
Speaker 1: thirty two bars. And over the years, for some reason inexplicable,

942
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:14,760
Speaker 1: we never worked with Steve Gett. I have no idea.

943
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 1: Every time we'd come to a track and his name

944
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 1: would come up, somebody would say something ridiculous, and we

945
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 1: didn't use him on the track. But we couldn't think

946
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:29,720
Speaker 1: of anyone else who could do that. So we did

947
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 1: that actually in the back room called Producers Workshop. It's

948
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:37,760
Speaker 1: the back of Mastering Lab on Hollywood Boulevard and behind

949
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 1: Douck Sex is Bill Schnay, a very famous producer and

950
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:47,360
Speaker 1: engineer owned that studio. So when we got there, it

951
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:51,440
Speaker 1: was Rainy and Victor Feldman and Joe Sample and Donald.

952
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 1: It was, you know, an all star, a bunch of

953
01:06:54,160 --> 01:07:01,960
Speaker 1: guys and Steve who everybody's feeling good. And Steve set

954
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 1: up a music stand because it was a sixteen page trot,

955
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:12,440
Speaker 1: and he said to Victor and Joe, hey, guys, just

956
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:16,439
Speaker 1: run it down so I can mark my rot, which

957
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 1: he did, and Donald went out in the studio where

958
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:22,240
Speaker 1: he would be and he would sing a scratch vocal

959
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:25,200
Speaker 1: low in their phone so they could hear the song.

960
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:28,920
Speaker 1: And Steve sat down and the only time he played

961
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:34,480
Speaker 1: it is what you hear, just played it. So Walter,

962
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 1: who's sitting next to me, turned to me and said,

963
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,440
Speaker 1: maybe we've made a mistake over the year. You know,

964
01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:45,400
Speaker 1: it was remarkable. I mean it was. It's really the

965
01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:48,760
Speaker 1: only time he played it. That's not a good part

966
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:53,200
Speaker 1: of the story yet, Okay, I don't know. Months later,

967
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 1: because we took a long time. We're in New York

968
01:07:56,320 --> 01:08:00,920
Speaker 1: mixing at A and R with Eliott China, and it

969
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:06,400
Speaker 1: was the five of us, Donald Walter, myself, Roger Elliot

970
01:08:07,240 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 1: and someone works in and says, you know, Gads down

971
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 1: the hall, he's playing with Michael Frank's. So I said,

972
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:16,639
Speaker 1: you know, I'll go tell him. And I went down

973
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 1: the hall and when they had a break, I said,

974
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:21,720
Speaker 1: you know, Donald Walter and I down the hall and

975
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 1: you give him minute, come on down. And we were

976
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:27,439
Speaker 1: not only just mixing the song Asia, we were at

977
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 1: the last, you know, thirty seconds of saying we're done.

978
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 1: Wonderful sounding room. So Steve comes down. He's feeling good,

979
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:39,000
Speaker 1: so we want to play you something and he sits

980
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:41,679
Speaker 1: in front of the speakers and it was just great.

981
01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:47,200
Speaker 1: So it was great, Sonning and he turns and said, wow,

982
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:58,320
Speaker 1: who's playing drums? Uh? You are? And he thinks for

983
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:06,080
Speaker 1: a second and says, I'm a motherfucker. That's my Asian story.

984
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:11,920
Speaker 1: True story. Okay, in terms that the songs are credited

985
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:16,880
Speaker 1: to Donald and Walter, did you know who did what?

986
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:22,640
Speaker 1: Or is it really the songs evolved? Good luck? I

987
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:27,479
Speaker 1: never saw them right and not? Okay? So now Asia

988
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:32,160
Speaker 1: becomes an ongoing success in the heyday of albums, and

989
01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:37,200
Speaker 1: it's years before Gaucho comes out. Why are there years?

990
01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 1: Walter had a couple of incidents. He got hit by

991
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 1: a car outside his home like a cab woman he

992
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 1: was living with an hour close friend. He went home

993
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:59,320
Speaker 1: one night and she died. It was just a confluence,

994
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:07,680
Speaker 1: a confluence of events. So there was no conscious hangover

995
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:11,639
Speaker 1: after Asia. It's just things got in the way, yeah,

996
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:18,880
Speaker 1: and songs getting written. So Gaucho is done in retrospect,

997
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:23,760
Speaker 1: a real triumph. But then the band essentially breaks up.

998
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:29,880
Speaker 1: What happened there, Well, Walter was having you know, was

999
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:34,599
Speaker 1: having these issues for himself, and Donald wanted to make

1000
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:38,400
Speaker 1: a record, and Walter wasn't in a place to make

1001
01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 1: a record, so he said, let's let's make a solo record,

1002
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:47,120
Speaker 1: and that was Nightline. Okay, and it How did it

1003
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:49,799
Speaker 1: end with you? How did it end with you? Working

1004
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:56,120
Speaker 1: with these two guys um well as sensibly Couch I

1005
01:10:56,400 --> 01:11:00,360
Speaker 1: ended working with Walter and Gaucho. He didn't participate Hayden

1006
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:11,520
Speaker 1: in Knife Flying. And along the way, Roger Nichols created

1007
01:11:13,240 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 1: a computer called Wendell, which, okay, what happened was we

1008
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:23,559
Speaker 1: were trying to cut Hey nineteen and we just couldn't

1009
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:27,840
Speaker 1: get a drum track. And Fagin turned to Roger one

1010
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:30,599
Speaker 1: day and he said, can't you build a fucking machine

1011
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 1: that will give me steady drum tracks? And he said, yeah,

1012
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:37,920
Speaker 1: give me some months and money and I'll do it.

1013
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:44,600
Speaker 1: And so he built a machine that's infamous in the

1014
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:49,519
Speaker 1: studio world called Wendell, and to this day is the

1015
01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:55,840
Speaker 1: ultimate drum machine. How we collected, what we did was

1016
01:11:56,920 --> 01:12:00,840
Speaker 1: what happened. What we would do is he Roger would

1017
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:06,320
Speaker 1: in today's world sample every great drama, only there was

1018
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:10,880
Speaker 1: no such thing as sampling. I can't say Roger invented it.

1019
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:14,680
Speaker 1: But for the purposes we needed, we did invent it

1020
01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:19,920
Speaker 1: because Roger had this machine rental that could sample. So

1021
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:22,920
Speaker 1: let's say Pretty was in the room and he was

1022
01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:28,759
Speaker 1: finished recording. Roger would say, so Pretty, hit the druma

1023
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:32,040
Speaker 1: on the side, or give me a rimshot, hit the symbols.

1024
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:37,000
Speaker 1: He would do these thirty different things. Roger was sampling it.

1025
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:40,360
Speaker 1: At the time, there was no such word, so none

1026
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:43,599
Speaker 1: of the guys cared. They were just Roger was their friend,

1027
01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 1: and they were just doing stuff with Roger. But at

1028
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 1: the end of time, Wendell owned the individual pieces of

1029
01:12:53,920 --> 01:13:02,679
Speaker 1: every great druma we worked with, literally, and Wendell Donald

1030
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 1: really liked that the tracks were so steady. And at

1031
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:12,400
Speaker 1: some point one of the engineers we worked with, who

1032
01:13:12,479 --> 01:13:15,040
Speaker 1: became a friend of mine and who built a studio

1033
01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:18,920
Speaker 1: that Donald and I owned together, he created a room

1034
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 1: for Donald in his house. You know, it was becoming

1035
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:24,320
Speaker 1: where you could work at home. You know, you could

1036
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 1: have a console at home and whatever. And Donald writes incessantly,

1037
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:34,200
Speaker 1: and so now he wasn't only writing, he was being

1038
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:38,880
Speaker 1: able to put it down somehow and recorded. And what

1039
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:43,920
Speaker 1: what I contributed to those things that became records, he

1040
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 1: was doing some of that, are a lot of that

1041
01:13:46,280 --> 01:13:52,400
Speaker 1: on his own in the house. I didn't love machine

1042
01:13:52,560 --> 01:13:57,559
Speaker 1: stuff as much. I loved the being in a room

1043
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:02,559
Speaker 1: with great musicians and creating uh music with them, and

1044
01:14:02,640 --> 01:14:05,360
Speaker 1: so it and Donald just one day said, you know,

1045
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:10,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do this by myself and that was that

1046
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 1: was fine. Well, you never to the public worked with

1047
01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:19,840
Speaker 1: them again. Was there a sense of loss on who's

1048
01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:24,720
Speaker 1: put yours? No, I'm very proud of the work I

1049
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:35,320
Speaker 1: was involved in. And now there's been a big evolution

1050
01:14:35,360 --> 01:14:37,960
Speaker 1: in the music business, certainly from the days you started.

1051
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:42,760
Speaker 1: Certainly by the seventies, producers tend to be independent. They

1052
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:47,040
Speaker 1: tend to get four points from record one, but there

1053
01:14:47,040 --> 01:14:49,200
Speaker 1: are other people who just worked for the company and

1054
01:14:49,240 --> 01:14:51,880
Speaker 1: didn't get points. Then we evolved to the eighties, weeven

1055
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:54,360
Speaker 1: the A and our guys get points. Did you have

1056
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:57,280
Speaker 1: Were you just getting a salary from ABC or were

1057
01:14:57,280 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 1: you getting participation on the records? I was any participation

1058
01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 1: on the records from ABC? And does that last to

1059
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:11,760
Speaker 1: this day? Yes? Okay? And you still own all those rights, yes, okay.

1060
01:15:11,760 --> 01:15:16,960
Speaker 1: I've never I've never had a direct contract with Donald

1061
01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:21,719
Speaker 1: Walter Ostilian. So I just word, we just worked together.

1062
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:25,040
Speaker 1: ABC sold m c A. Throughout all that period, they've

1063
01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:28,360
Speaker 1: been accounting to you. Yes, and you know this is

1064
01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:30,600
Speaker 1: a business where people forget to write checks if you

1065
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:34,840
Speaker 1: had to audit them. No, okay, I think there was

1066
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:41,799
Speaker 1: a I think fifteen years ago maybe. Uh, they wanted

1067
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:45,320
Speaker 1: to do an audit and we were doing an audit collaboratively,

1068
01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:48,920
Speaker 1: and when the guys were halfway through, they said, you know,

1069
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:51,960
Speaker 1: we'll continue, but up to now they may have overpaid you.

1070
01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 1: So we stopped that. Okay, So at what point do

1071
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:04,000
Speaker 1: you stop working at ABC? Oh? I got uh. ABC

1072
01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:10,080
Speaker 1: was sold, The ABC was sold. Dunhill sold to ABC,

1073
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 1: and they installed Jay Left became the president of Motown UM,

1074
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:29,000
Speaker 1: and they installed a person named Jerry Rubinstein to be um.

1075
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:34,400
Speaker 1: That's not true. Sorry. A fellow named Steve Deaner became

1076
01:16:34,479 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 1: president and he became my good friend and actually wrote

1077
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:41,640
Speaker 1: the liner notes and wonderful liner notes by Asia. He

1078
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:45,400
Speaker 1: was a big fan and he treated us. You know,

1079
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:48,920
Speaker 1: you couldn't ask to be treated by a record company

1080
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:56,240
Speaker 1: president any better. Then Steve treated the aggregate members of

1081
01:16:56,240 --> 01:16:59,400
Speaker 1: the band to the extent. He called one day and

1082
01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:02,600
Speaker 1: said so would you would you ask Donald if he

1083
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:08,960
Speaker 1: would tour this is Asian now, and uh Fagin said, uh,

1084
01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:12,439
Speaker 1: teld Steve, I don't want a tour, but we'll do

1085
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:16,479
Speaker 1: an interview tour as long as he sends me to

1086
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:23,559
Speaker 1: Monaco to see Napoleon's underwear in the Napoleonic Museum on

1087
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:27,720
Speaker 1: the palace grounds. I'm writing a song about him, so

1088
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:31,400
Speaker 1: see if that's true. So we did. We went to London.

1089
01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:38,120
Speaker 1: We did these few days of one after the other interviews.

1090
01:17:39,479 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 1: UM where, by the way, you asked the question earlier

1091
01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:46,920
Speaker 1: when when someone asked Donald how they write songs, The

1092
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:49,080
Speaker 1: only thing I've ever heard him say about how they

1093
01:17:49,120 --> 01:17:52,160
Speaker 1: do it is Walter can't start him and I can't

1094
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:56,679
Speaker 1: finish him. Wow, that explains it. That was the only

1095
01:17:56,720 --> 01:18:01,559
Speaker 1: time I've heard that responded to. So we went to London.

1096
01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:06,360
Speaker 1: We did these bunch of interviews. Donald and I went

1097
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 1: to Monaco, UM, spent a few days, came back. Steve

1098
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:16,120
Speaker 1: Diner was fabulous. Steve left and they brought in a

1099
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:21,559
Speaker 1: guy named Jerry Rubinstein. Rubinson Rubinstein, I don't know that

1100
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:24,200
Speaker 1: we got along so well. He was of a different

1101
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:28,720
Speaker 1: school of you know, do you know not do this,

1102
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:33,160
Speaker 1: but this is how it's going to be. That didn't

1103
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:37,439
Speaker 1: sit well and wasn't what we were used to. And

1104
01:18:40,280 --> 01:18:43,360
Speaker 1: I had an opportunity at that point to join the

1105
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:48,360
Speaker 1: Warner Brothers. He and our team with Lenny and Ted,

1106
01:18:48,479 --> 01:18:53,679
Speaker 1: and that was very attractive to me. And so when

1107
01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:57,160
Speaker 1: Jerry Rubinstein called one night in the studio and I

1108
01:18:57,200 --> 01:18:59,920
Speaker 1: put him on the speaker phone and he said to

1109
01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:02,000
Speaker 1: what's it gonna be? Are we going to sign again

1110
01:19:02,120 --> 01:19:09,320
Speaker 1: or aren't we? I said, we aren't, and we Donald

1111
01:19:09,360 --> 01:19:13,240
Speaker 1: and Walter and their people. I brought them. I basically

1112
01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:17,719
Speaker 1: went to Warner Brothers and they came along. They never

1113
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:21,600
Speaker 1: got a Steely Dan album, but they got Nightfly. So

1114
01:19:21,840 --> 01:19:26,040
Speaker 1: you as opposed to Mo, right, but you were the

1115
01:19:26,080 --> 01:19:29,320
Speaker 1: conduit to get him to Warner Brothers. Oh yeah, Lenny. Well,

1116
01:19:29,960 --> 01:19:32,560
Speaker 1: you know, Moe is always obviously part of this and

1117
01:19:33,120 --> 01:19:37,760
Speaker 1: it's extremely supportive of me for all these years. But

1118
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:41,800
Speaker 1: I was talking with Lenny and Lenny said, you know,

1119
01:19:42,240 --> 01:19:45,400
Speaker 1: he knew the contract was coming up, and I helped

1120
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:50,599
Speaker 1: coordinate the meetings between Donald and Walter's people and Warner

1121
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:54,200
Speaker 1: Brothers and they made a deal. Okay, So while you

1122
01:19:54,240 --> 01:19:57,400
Speaker 1: were making these Steely Dan Records. Were those consuming all

1123
01:19:57,400 --> 01:20:00,120
Speaker 1: your time or were you doing other projects for ABC? No?

1124
01:20:00,240 --> 01:20:03,439
Speaker 1: I was doing other projects. Okay, So let's go on

1125
01:20:03,560 --> 01:20:06,479
Speaker 1: to a couple of records. I want to cover. You

1126
01:20:06,680 --> 01:20:12,120
Speaker 1: ultimately work with Paul Brady being managed by you two's management.

1127
01:20:12,160 --> 01:20:14,559
Speaker 1: At that point, they have a big push. I mean,

1128
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:17,920
Speaker 1: I know Paul, I know, and now I know you,

1129
01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:21,920
Speaker 1: and that is one of my favorite records of all time.

1130
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:25,280
Speaker 1: You know, it's just really great, never mind the duet

1131
01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:28,920
Speaker 1: with Bonnie Ray trick or treat. You know, every song,

1132
01:20:29,360 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 1: but it doesn't sound anything like what Paul has done

1133
01:20:33,360 --> 01:20:38,040
Speaker 1: before or after to the detriment of his career. So

1134
01:20:38,080 --> 01:20:40,920
Speaker 1: how did you come up doing that project and what

1135
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:46,320
Speaker 1: was that experience? Well, I never doubt with Paul management.

1136
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:51,720
Speaker 1: He was signed to Mercury Records. And the person who

1137
01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:56,880
Speaker 1: ran Mercury name is David Bates, an extraordinarily successful a

1138
01:20:57,040 --> 01:21:00,240
Speaker 1: and our guy. You know, he invented death Flap food

1139
01:21:00,320 --> 01:21:04,519
Speaker 1: and dire Straits and blah blah blah. He and I

1140
01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:08,000
Speaker 1: are very close friends. And he called me one day

1141
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:09,679
Speaker 1: he said, you know, I think you two guys would

1142
01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:14,800
Speaker 1: really get along. And Grady and I met, and to

1143
01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:17,240
Speaker 1: this day I mean I spoke to him not too

1144
01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:20,639
Speaker 1: many days ago. We've remained very close. I just thought

1145
01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:25,799
Speaker 1: he was fabulous and he wanted to make a record

1146
01:21:26,400 --> 01:21:29,000
Speaker 1: with the guys some of the guys I worked with.

1147
01:21:30,920 --> 01:21:35,320
Speaker 1: So I went up to Bearsville and there was Jeff

1148
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:39,000
Speaker 1: it was Picaro, and David Paige was for those are

1149
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:46,160
Speaker 1: the main parts of Totam. Parts of Tournam Chuck Rainey,

1150
01:21:46,439 --> 01:21:52,160
Speaker 1: Paul Brady and we made a reckon well these, let say,

1151
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:54,000
Speaker 1: at the time, Victory was not a great label in

1152
01:21:54,040 --> 01:21:55,479
Speaker 1: the US. I don't know if I got it to

1153
01:21:55,479 --> 01:21:58,519
Speaker 1: do and maybe it was out of time. Tell me

1154
01:21:58,560 --> 01:22:03,040
Speaker 1: about working with Laura Nero on how do you talk

1155
01:22:03,120 --> 01:22:05,760
Speaker 1: about falling in love and explain it? She was my

1156
01:22:06,720 --> 01:22:10,160
Speaker 1: I just loved Laura. I've known her for years. How

1157
01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:12,800
Speaker 1: did you first meet her? When I couldn't get a

1158
01:22:12,920 --> 01:22:16,000
Speaker 1: job in those years and I was at sixteen fifty,

1159
01:22:16,960 --> 01:22:21,840
Speaker 1: One of my musical idol, so to speak, was a

1160
01:22:21,840 --> 01:22:25,599
Speaker 1: guy named Thomas Jefferson Kay, who I actually did two

1161
01:22:25,600 --> 01:22:29,639
Speaker 1: records with on ABC, and he and Laura were living

1162
01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:33,600
Speaker 1: together at the time, and both of them had significant

1163
01:22:33,640 --> 01:22:37,920
Speaker 1: drug problems at the time, and I was working up

1164
01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:41,200
Speaker 1: Broadway and they were walking down and Tommy said, where

1165
01:22:41,200 --> 01:22:43,120
Speaker 1: are you going? I said wherever I was going? He said, no,

1166
01:22:43,479 --> 01:22:46,800
Speaker 1: come with us. We're doing a background dated mercury. I said,

1167
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:49,400
Speaker 1: I'm not. I don't sing. He said it would be cool.

1168
01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:53,840
Speaker 1: Laurel'll sing the note in Uria, and so I did.

1169
01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:57,840
Speaker 1: Dad I met her. We didn't see each other a

1170
01:22:57,920 --> 01:23:02,679
Speaker 1: lot over the number of years. I would run into

1171
01:23:02,680 --> 01:23:05,120
Speaker 1: it once in a while. It was always terrific. And

1172
01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:09,960
Speaker 1: one night she called me, I'm in extreme night owl,

1173
01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:13,760
Speaker 1: and so is she. That's because I'm a night owl

1174
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:23,400
Speaker 1: to put hours on that and always that way, yeah,

1175
01:23:23,479 --> 01:23:25,800
Speaker 1: my mom was. I'd come home, my mom be sitting

1176
01:23:25,840 --> 01:23:30,200
Speaker 1: at a bridge table with a piece of chicksaw puzzle

1177
01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:34,200
Speaker 1: and eight bags of different kind of chocolate around the frame,

1178
01:23:35,040 --> 01:23:41,200
Speaker 1: and always that way, even last night. And I'm not anymore.

1179
01:23:41,240 --> 01:23:45,400
Speaker 1: But it doesn't feel any different. Is there a specific reason?

1180
01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:47,680
Speaker 1: Is that your internal clock ors or something you like

1181
01:23:47,800 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 1: about it? Both? I love about it and it is

1182
01:23:53,040 --> 01:23:56,360
Speaker 1: my intern internal clocks. Well, I love it because once

1183
01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:58,920
Speaker 1: you get to a certain hour, everything shuts down in

1184
01:23:58,960 --> 01:24:01,680
Speaker 1: your internal market. You can do your own thing. The

1185
01:24:01,840 --> 01:24:05,120
Speaker 1: only people who call some is somebody I want to

1186
01:24:05,120 --> 01:24:09,120
Speaker 1: talk to exactly. There's no interrupt in the internet age,

1187
01:24:09,120 --> 01:24:12,479
Speaker 1: start hearing from Europe whatever, But I don't. I'm not

1188
01:24:12,600 --> 01:24:17,120
Speaker 1: in that age. I'm I'm watching games or you're watching games.

1189
01:24:17,160 --> 01:24:23,160
Speaker 1: What else you're doing? I'm reading and watching games, watching

1190
01:24:23,640 --> 01:24:26,960
Speaker 1: just DV owing things I want to watch. In between

1191
01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:31,519
Speaker 1: twelve and six, speaking to some friends in London and

1192
01:24:31,640 --> 01:24:34,800
Speaker 1: around four my l a friends are in bed by

1193
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:40,000
Speaker 1: what what friends I have left there? So no? I

1194
01:24:40,080 --> 01:24:44,240
Speaker 1: love that time? Okay? And are you presently married? I

1195
01:24:44,280 --> 01:24:47,240
Speaker 1: am presently married. And does your wife what scheduled? Does

1196
01:24:47,320 --> 01:24:51,280
Speaker 1: she keep? Not mine? I have the same situation with

1197
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:53,519
Speaker 1: my girlfriend, and you know, the therapist said, what is this?

1198
01:24:54,320 --> 01:24:56,040
Speaker 1: You know, this is the only way I can live

1199
01:24:56,080 --> 01:24:58,600
Speaker 1: my life, to create you know when everything shots not

1200
01:24:58,720 --> 01:25:02,240
Speaker 1: only that it might be advantageous. Oh, I'm totally believe.

1201
01:25:02,360 --> 01:25:03,920
Speaker 1: I mean the fact we don't go to bed at

1202
01:25:03,920 --> 01:25:07,120
Speaker 1: the same time. What time does your wife go to

1203
01:25:07,160 --> 01:25:11,200
Speaker 1: bed and wake up on any given night? It can

1204
01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:14,240
Speaker 1: be from I'm beat, I'm putting my feet up and

1205
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:18,200
Speaker 1: that's it. At nine o'clock or not much later than eleven,

1206
01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:21,360
Speaker 1: and my girlfriend's eleven and seven. You know, get a

1207
01:25:21,400 --> 01:25:23,960
Speaker 1: good a bit of eleven, great up seven like clockwork.

1208
01:25:24,280 --> 01:25:27,080
Speaker 1: If I got up at seven, I'd have to make

1209
01:25:27,080 --> 01:25:30,120
Speaker 1: sure there were no small instruments near me. I don't

1210
01:25:30,120 --> 01:25:31,439
Speaker 1: even want to get up, you know, to get on

1211
01:25:31,439 --> 01:25:35,479
Speaker 1: an early flight. Even let's I'm on the dying these days,

1212
01:25:36,400 --> 01:25:40,320
Speaker 1: I am not flying. That's a whole you know. My

1213
01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:45,439
Speaker 1: very very very close friend, Howard Gilman, who used to

1214
01:25:45,479 --> 01:25:50,000
Speaker 1: be was Dennis leaven Toole's partner and closest friend. His son,

1215
01:25:50,600 --> 01:25:53,400
Speaker 1: who I was there the day he was born, was

1216
01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:56,519
Speaker 1: getting married in a very nice place up in Carmel

1217
01:25:57,080 --> 01:26:00,120
Speaker 1: three weeks ago. I had my flights in my hotel.

1218
01:26:01,280 --> 01:26:03,720
Speaker 1: I just couldn't do it. I'm not willing to make

1219
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:07,479
Speaker 1: an unforced error. That's exactly what If I was not

1220
01:26:07,680 --> 01:26:09,720
Speaker 1: lying in bed and I was dying of COVID and

1221
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:11,760
Speaker 1: I did something like that, That's just not the way

1222
01:26:11,800 --> 01:26:16,840
Speaker 1: I want to go. Okay, So you knew Laura. So

1223
01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:19,360
Speaker 1: I knew Laura. And she called me in the middle

1224
01:26:19,360 --> 01:26:23,280
Speaker 1: of the night and said, I'm getting sick again. I

1225
01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:25,320
Speaker 1: have a record in me, please make it with me.

1226
01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:30,879
Speaker 1: That's what happened. And did her sickness affect the record?

1227
01:26:31,640 --> 01:26:35,479
Speaker 1: Absolutely not? Does it sounded no? But I will say,

1228
01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:38,519
Speaker 1: and I'm a huge fan saw her multiple times, did

1229
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:44,400
Speaker 1: not know her okay up through uh certainly the first

1230
01:26:44,479 --> 01:26:47,840
Speaker 1: the third album, New York Tenderbury, and then the Christmas

1231
01:26:47,880 --> 01:26:53,599
Speaker 1: Beads a Sweat. What came thereafter forget production. The songs

1232
01:26:53,640 --> 01:26:56,960
Speaker 1: were not of the quality of what came before. Laura

1233
01:26:57,080 --> 01:26:59,680
Speaker 1: had things in her life, and I have no I mean,

1234
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:02,719
Speaker 1: I have no idea to put it upon her foot

1235
01:27:03,080 --> 01:27:06,599
Speaker 1: for why that might be. But Laura was just dealing

1236
01:27:06,680 --> 01:27:09,360
Speaker 1: with a bunch of things and maybe she just wasn't

1237
01:27:09,360 --> 01:27:13,760
Speaker 1: plugged into that the greatest part of her because she

1238
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:17,760
Speaker 1: was the minute she walked in the studio. First of all,

1239
01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:21,439
Speaker 1: we did it up in my studio that Donald and

1240
01:27:21,479 --> 01:27:27,200
Speaker 1: I owned, which was an extremely private place that had

1241
01:27:27,240 --> 01:27:30,519
Speaker 1: a window and when you looked out the window, all

1242
01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:34,360
Speaker 1: you could see was the Tribe or bridge, and at

1243
01:27:34,479 --> 01:27:38,960
Speaker 1: night it was just it was a very nice, chill

1244
01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:48,320
Speaker 1: place to be and it was Laura Party, Rainy Elliott, random,

1245
01:27:49,439 --> 01:27:52,600
Speaker 1: everybody who was friendly. They all knew each other. It

1246
01:27:52,760 --> 01:27:59,559
Speaker 1: was very let's just play. And when she opened her mouth,

1247
01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:04,280
Speaker 1: it was just magic. I mean, she was a magical singer.

1248
01:28:04,680 --> 01:28:07,960
Speaker 1: Never sang a bad not ever not, not that I

1249
01:28:08,040 --> 01:28:12,320
Speaker 1: ever heard. She was just remarkably good. Was she aware

1250
01:28:12,360 --> 01:28:17,240
Speaker 1: of how beloved she was by her fans? If yes,

1251
01:28:17,280 --> 01:28:21,120
Speaker 1: I'm sure she was. You couldn't be more. This is

1252
01:28:21,160 --> 01:28:23,960
Speaker 1: who I am. And she was talk about, you know,

1253
01:28:24,080 --> 01:28:28,320
Speaker 1: not being involved in the scene. She just she was cool.

1254
01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:31,080
Speaker 1: Although at the end of it, I was a little

1255
01:28:31,120 --> 01:28:35,280
Speaker 1: I was upset at because I as we were making

1256
01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:38,439
Speaker 1: the record, the studio was up on nine five in

1257
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:42,759
Speaker 1: the very very East Side, and Mattola and I would

1258
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:46,559
Speaker 1: be on their way to Connecticut at home, and they

1259
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:50,280
Speaker 1: were a big fan and friends of mine for a

1260
01:28:50,280 --> 01:28:52,640
Speaker 1: long time, so they were once in a while, come

1261
01:28:52,680 --> 01:28:55,639
Speaker 1: by the studio, you know, how's it going, see Laura?

1262
01:28:56,400 --> 01:28:58,880
Speaker 1: And they were when I sent them the final at

1263
01:28:58,920 --> 01:29:02,400
Speaker 1: that time debt. Donnie called me back in the study.

1264
01:29:02,439 --> 01:29:06,200
Speaker 1: He said, this is you know, she's just one remarkable singer.

1265
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:09,719
Speaker 1: I just hung up from Lawn and she's gonna open

1266
01:29:10,240 --> 01:29:15,000
Speaker 1: Saturday Night Live this season. I went, wow, that's great. Great.

1267
01:29:17,479 --> 01:29:20,200
Speaker 1: I went into studio because we were still doing some things.

1268
01:29:21,160 --> 01:29:26,040
Speaker 1: I said, Laura did this, and she said called Donnie back,

1269
01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:28,519
Speaker 1: I'm not doing that show. I'm not going on TV.

1270
01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:34,920
Speaker 1: And Donnie called her and Tommy spoke to her and

1271
01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:38,799
Speaker 1: she just she was so self conscious about her weight

1272
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:44,799
Speaker 1: she wouldn't go on TV and they dropped her. Wow,

1273
01:29:46,040 --> 01:29:48,080
Speaker 1: that's what I knew he was excited about the record

1274
01:29:48,120 --> 01:29:51,000
Speaker 1: because he called me about the record then too. So,

1275
01:29:51,080 --> 01:29:53,639
Speaker 1: how was your experience at Warner Brothers working in part

1276
01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:56,880
Speaker 1: of that legendary in our team? How good does it get?

1277
01:29:58,640 --> 01:30:01,000
Speaker 1: It was magic? Then? Who were you in the studio

1278
01:30:01,120 --> 01:30:07,120
Speaker 1: with at that time? I was we were doing Nightflying.

1279
01:30:08,400 --> 01:30:12,280
Speaker 1: I had done a record that as a story of

1280
01:30:12,360 --> 01:30:15,599
Speaker 1: its own that we all loved. That is one of

1281
01:30:15,640 --> 01:30:19,439
Speaker 1: my two or three favorite records called Rut Boy, Slim

1282
01:30:19,439 --> 01:30:22,800
Speaker 1: in the Sex, Dare to Be Fat, Fat is where

1283
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:26,639
Speaker 1: It's at. You know those first two road group boys,

1284
01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:30,120
Speaker 1: Slim of the Sex, Change Hield he unfortunately died. I

1285
01:30:30,240 --> 01:30:35,000
Speaker 1: used to talk about those albums all the time. I

1286
01:30:35,080 --> 01:30:36,960
Speaker 1: have a picture of Roots in my bedroom. I have

1287
01:30:37,000 --> 01:30:40,200
Speaker 1: two pictures in my bedroom. I have a picture of

1288
01:30:40,360 --> 01:30:46,080
Speaker 1: Root that no matter where you go, he's looking at you.

1289
01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:49,000
Speaker 1: I mean if you're on the side of the picture,

1290
01:30:49,960 --> 01:30:53,280
Speaker 1: like literally sitting standing next to the picture, he's looking

1291
01:30:53,320 --> 01:30:56,439
Speaker 1: at you. And I have a picture of Donald Dusty

1292
01:30:56,479 --> 01:31:00,040
Speaker 1: Springfield and my friend Thomas Jefferson, Kay, and the a

1293
01:31:00,280 --> 01:31:02,880
Speaker 1: let's at a piano. That's what I have in my

1294
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:06,920
Speaker 1: bedroom A picture of Rude. Wow. So Rude supposedly dropped

1295
01:31:06,920 --> 01:31:10,160
Speaker 1: out of Yale. I believe what was his And then

1296
01:31:10,200 --> 01:31:13,400
Speaker 1: they said there was mental illness? What was really his story?

1297
01:31:14,840 --> 01:31:18,559
Speaker 1: I get to talk about Rude. This is good. His

1298
01:31:18,720 --> 01:31:23,479
Speaker 1: story is. I don't know where to start. I'm in

1299
01:31:23,520 --> 01:31:28,800
Speaker 1: the village. One night, Fagin's comes by, which he would

1300
01:31:28,840 --> 01:31:31,200
Speaker 1: do occasionally, you would play on records I was making

1301
01:31:31,320 --> 01:31:34,920
Speaker 1: or come by, and as he left that day, he

1302
01:31:35,080 --> 01:31:37,840
Speaker 1: dropped a cassette on the console. He says, so check

1303
01:31:37,920 --> 01:31:42,320
Speaker 1: this out. Well, he would do that occasionally for me

1304
01:31:42,360 --> 01:31:46,320
Speaker 1: to hear a new song, not often, but occasionally. I

1305
01:31:46,360 --> 01:31:49,160
Speaker 1: really heard the songs till they came into studio and

1306
01:31:49,240 --> 01:31:52,400
Speaker 1: we played him. And I got in my car to

1307
01:31:52,439 --> 01:31:55,320
Speaker 1: go home, and I put the cassette in and I

1308
01:31:55,360 --> 01:31:59,240
Speaker 1: heard put a nickel in the duke and boogie to

1309
01:31:59,400 --> 01:32:03,040
Speaker 1: your puke, And I went, Fagan, what the funk is this?

1310
01:32:03,520 --> 01:32:08,880
Speaker 1: I thought it was Fagan joking me. I got home.

1311
01:32:08,960 --> 01:32:12,080
Speaker 1: You know, it's a ridiculous hour. What the hell? What's this?

1312
01:32:13,160 --> 01:32:15,720
Speaker 1: He tells me about this friend of his in d C.

1313
01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:20,040
Speaker 1: Who this guy is there and he's like a legend

1314
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:22,800
Speaker 1: in town, and so fake and I got on the

1315
01:32:22,880 --> 01:32:26,400
Speaker 1: plane and we went to the University of Maryland. It

1316
01:32:26,520 --> 01:32:31,160
Speaker 1: was the Christmas show for whatever the students there. It

1317
01:32:31,320 --> 01:32:34,599
Speaker 1: was a big room. Ken at the end of the show,

1318
01:32:36,320 --> 01:32:39,600
Speaker 1: well rude, if you know, roots worked. Every night was

1319
01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:42,760
Speaker 1: a different theme. So he always dressed up one night

1320
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:46,000
Speaker 1: as a soldier or a Santa, and this night he

1321
01:32:46,080 --> 01:32:48,800
Speaker 1: was Santa. And at the end of the show he

1322
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:51,240
Speaker 1: sat on a chair and he said, okay, all you

1323
01:32:51,320 --> 01:32:54,439
Speaker 1: boys and girls your book girls, really you hang up

1324
01:32:54,439 --> 01:32:57,320
Speaker 1: on their left and you sit on Santa's lap. And

1325
01:32:57,360 --> 01:32:59,559
Speaker 1: when they got up on Santa's lap, when they got

1326
01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:02,400
Speaker 1: up on his, he popped in amy under their nose,

1327
01:33:02,960 --> 01:33:07,639
Speaker 1: really really Fagin and I well, I hit my head

1328
01:33:07,680 --> 01:33:10,360
Speaker 1: on the table, laughing. I thought I saw Fagin's hit

1329
01:33:10,439 --> 01:33:15,799
Speaker 1: the table as well. It was just beyond shows over whatever,

1330
01:33:15,880 --> 01:33:18,160
Speaker 1: that's over, and we were going to meet at some

1331
01:33:18,880 --> 01:33:22,120
Speaker 1: little place at a pool table and whatever. As I

1332
01:33:22,160 --> 01:33:24,759
Speaker 1: told you earlier, I got pretty good at shooting pool.

1333
01:33:26,200 --> 01:33:30,400
Speaker 1: And he was this larger than life figure, you know,

1334
01:33:30,520 --> 01:33:36,240
Speaker 1: he was. I think he graduated three from Yale and

1335
01:33:36,400 --> 01:33:40,800
Speaker 1: green Lee, who was his partner, was rude boy was

1336
01:33:40,840 --> 01:33:45,680
Speaker 1: six five to sixty, green Lee was six nine. He

1337
01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:51,759
Speaker 1: was a draft choice of the Dolphins offensive lineman mhm.

1338
01:33:52,640 --> 01:33:55,960
Speaker 1: And we went to this place and you know, there's

1339
01:33:56,000 --> 01:33:59,160
Speaker 1: a pool table there, and you know, he's etching and

1340
01:33:59,280 --> 01:34:01,800
Speaker 1: unjust weird. And he said, don't watch the shooting game

1341
01:34:01,840 --> 01:34:04,240
Speaker 1: a pool. So I not only beat him, but I

1342
01:34:04,400 --> 01:34:08,280
Speaker 1: ended the eight ball game with a bank shot. Literally

1343
01:34:08,600 --> 01:34:12,000
Speaker 1: he fell to his knees and he went and we

1344
01:34:12,120 --> 01:34:17,120
Speaker 1: became friends, and they let me sign him at Warner's unbelievably,

1345
01:34:18,439 --> 01:34:21,240
Speaker 1: and we made a record that just like I wouldn't

1346
01:34:21,240 --> 01:34:28,200
Speaker 1: even know how to tell you the unbelievable uniqueness of

1347
01:34:28,320 --> 01:34:32,960
Speaker 1: that record. Well, what pisces me off is that whole

1348
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:37,080
Speaker 1: attitude is absent, not only in music, and that irreverence.

1349
01:34:37,640 --> 01:34:39,719
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not too old for you. The second

1350
01:34:39,800 --> 01:34:44,160
Speaker 1: song on the album, the Mood Ring, he really nailed

1351
01:34:44,280 --> 01:34:51,240
Speaker 1: these things. They served chicken chassis chicken. I remember saying,

1352
01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:53,720
Speaker 1: chicken chess. Hey, what do you mean the bones of

1353
01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:58,760
Speaker 1: a chicken? Okay, See how the other thing is they

1354
01:34:58,760 --> 01:35:03,639
Speaker 1: were autobiographical. That's the other thing. I didn't know that

1355
01:35:04,240 --> 01:35:10,920
Speaker 1: in jail and Jacksonville too Sick to reggae. Right, those

1356
01:35:10,920 --> 01:35:14,280
Speaker 1: are autobiographical and so much more than we could sit

1357
01:35:14,320 --> 01:35:16,040
Speaker 1: here talking. If you want to call me at three

1358
01:35:16,040 --> 01:35:20,120
Speaker 1: in the morning, call me and I'll tell you unbelievable

1359
01:35:20,160 --> 01:35:22,160
Speaker 1: things that went on doing that. But I will tell

1360
01:35:22,200 --> 01:35:25,040
Speaker 1: you one and I'll leave it at that. He comes

1361
01:35:25,040 --> 01:35:27,200
Speaker 1: to me one morning and says, I need to go

1362
01:35:27,320 --> 01:35:30,880
Speaker 1: see a doctor. I didn't know doctors down there. So

1363
01:35:31,640 --> 01:35:35,360
Speaker 1: the Eagles were living there at the time, with the

1364
01:35:35,920 --> 01:35:41,200
Speaker 1: Simpson and Coconut Grove, and I called Glenn and I said, I,

1365
01:35:41,360 --> 01:35:43,240
Speaker 1: you know, I need a doctor for this guy. They

1366
01:35:43,280 --> 01:35:46,280
Speaker 1: always had doctors to go see, and they gave me

1367
01:35:46,360 --> 01:35:49,559
Speaker 1: the name and I went down with driving and driving

1368
01:35:49,560 --> 01:35:52,160
Speaker 1: and I said, so, what are we going for it?

1369
01:35:52,320 --> 01:35:55,599
Speaker 1: He said, I need to get a shot. I get

1370
01:35:55,600 --> 01:35:59,080
Speaker 1: a shot. I carry around this paper. I said, what

1371
01:35:59,240 --> 01:36:04,160
Speaker 1: what is it? Mixing? M What does it do? Well?

1372
01:36:04,920 --> 01:36:11,960
Speaker 1: It lets me feel my left side and my right side. Okay,

1373
01:36:12,880 --> 01:36:18,280
Speaker 1: m hm, great time, greatest thirty days in my life. Okay.

1374
01:36:18,320 --> 01:36:21,599
Speaker 1: What did Warner brothers say about the record? I certainly well,

1375
01:36:21,720 --> 01:36:23,840
Speaker 1: I certainly found it through the press, and that's why

1376
01:36:23,920 --> 01:36:25,559
Speaker 1: I bought it and fell in love with it, but

1377
01:36:25,600 --> 01:36:28,040
Speaker 1: what was it like being on the inside. Well, this

1378
01:36:28,080 --> 01:36:31,920
Speaker 1: will be good too. They were wild. I mean everyone

1379
01:36:31,960 --> 01:36:35,559
Speaker 1: appreciated the things about you know, the musics, like you know,

1380
01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:38,519
Speaker 1: Lenny and Teddy and all these guys. And because we

1381
01:36:38,640 --> 01:36:42,920
Speaker 1: got it excited, it translated to Mo and the other people.

1382
01:36:43,920 --> 01:36:47,280
Speaker 1: So we booked out the Roxy one night. They were

1383
01:36:47,600 --> 01:36:53,600
Speaker 1: terrible drug uses coke. I mean, he was Dicky and

1384
01:36:53,640 --> 01:36:59,240
Speaker 1: Greenley consumed. They were these huge guys and consumed drugs.

1385
01:37:02,439 --> 01:37:06,559
Speaker 1: So we booked out the Roxy one night and the

1386
01:37:06,640 --> 01:37:10,840
Speaker 1: morning of the show, I get when my my secretary,

1387
01:37:11,080 --> 01:37:14,479
Speaker 1: who they really liked but was naive to all of

1388
01:37:14,560 --> 01:37:19,600
Speaker 1: this scene, went over to the month to you know

1389
01:37:21,720 --> 01:37:26,719
Speaker 1: where Blush passed when he was staying at the Chateau.

1390
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:29,519
Speaker 1: Baman Boby said. They called that she was going to

1391
01:37:29,640 --> 01:37:33,040
Speaker 1: go over there and he was just gone. She called

1392
01:37:33,080 --> 01:37:36,839
Speaker 1: me in tears. I went over there. We injected coffee

1393
01:37:36,840 --> 01:37:41,760
Speaker 1: in his veins. Somehow he got it together. Now, you know,

1394
01:37:41,880 --> 01:37:45,080
Speaker 1: he was a I was you know rather if you

1395
01:37:45,160 --> 01:37:48,160
Speaker 1: know this song used to be a radical right at

1396
01:37:48,160 --> 01:37:51,720
Speaker 1: the end of that song, like I said, was autobiographical,

1397
01:37:52,040 --> 01:37:54,880
Speaker 1: climbed over the White House fence took a billy clip

1398
01:37:54,880 --> 01:37:57,080
Speaker 1: to the head if it weren't for the freaky freaky

1399
01:37:57,160 --> 01:38:01,240
Speaker 1: doctor who boy Slim long since be dead. So that's

1400
01:38:01,240 --> 01:38:06,400
Speaker 1: who he was. And at the we packed the roxy,

1401
01:38:06,640 --> 01:38:11,679
Speaker 1: I mean, you couldn't get in. And Moe is sitting

1402
01:38:11,760 --> 01:38:15,800
Speaker 1: at the front table with who used to be the

1403
01:38:15,840 --> 01:38:21,040
Speaker 1: guy at Warna time Warna you know the main CEO guy.

1404
01:38:21,640 --> 01:38:25,720
Speaker 1: Oh you're talking about you know, Bob Morgato. No, the

1405
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:31,160
Speaker 1: guy he s ross exactly so Stephen Mower at the table.

1406
01:38:31,479 --> 01:38:35,439
Speaker 1: Oh god, and they come out. He comes out and

1407
01:38:35,560 --> 01:38:42,200
Speaker 1: opens with two uh boogie to your puke. It was fabulous.

1408
01:38:42,920 --> 01:38:47,240
Speaker 1: And he looks out he's loaded and he says, I

1409
01:38:47,320 --> 01:38:51,519
Speaker 1: can see tonight we have some corporate criminals in the house.

1410
01:38:53,439 --> 01:38:58,439
Speaker 1: That was the end of the record that minute. Mhm

1411
01:38:59,520 --> 01:39:03,840
Speaker 1: did you mean team contact with him? Oh? Absolutely, I'm sorry.

1412
01:39:03,880 --> 01:39:06,600
Speaker 1: I didn't wear my boy from President T shirt for this.

1413
01:39:07,320 --> 01:39:10,600
Speaker 1: And what was the real story with him dying? P

1414
01:39:10,760 --> 01:39:14,639
Speaker 1: O DD and Betty were taught at it. There's no story,

1415
01:39:15,520 --> 01:39:17,920
Speaker 1: and was there were second every member of the man

1416
01:39:18,720 --> 01:39:22,479
Speaker 1: has passed away. And there actually was a sex change band.

1417
01:39:22,520 --> 01:39:24,519
Speaker 1: It was not a studio. Oh my god. They were

1418
01:39:24,840 --> 01:39:27,760
Speaker 1: that band. That you here right. They were great. They

1419
01:39:27,760 --> 01:39:32,759
Speaker 1: were Ernie Lancaster was as good as swamp blues guitar player.

1420
01:39:33,200 --> 01:39:37,280
Speaker 1: These guys were great. They played live. So how did

1421
01:39:37,320 --> 01:39:40,760
Speaker 1: it end with you and Warner Brothers? It didn't really

1422
01:39:40,880 --> 01:39:43,640
Speaker 1: quote And as much I was living in l A,

1423
01:39:43,840 --> 01:39:47,120
Speaker 1: I had my living in l A in my office

1424
01:39:47,160 --> 01:39:51,320
Speaker 1: in Burbank, and I had a I get kidney stuntes

1425
01:39:52,600 --> 01:39:56,280
Speaker 1: often and badly, and I had an operation. I was

1426
01:39:56,320 --> 01:40:00,760
Speaker 1: in Cedars Side night and Donald told me one day

1427
01:40:00,760 --> 01:40:03,320
Speaker 1: and he said, you know, I'm standing here on forty

1428
01:40:03,400 --> 01:40:06,800
Speaker 1: seven and Broadway. Let's come home. And I said I

1429
01:40:06,840 --> 01:40:09,760
Speaker 1: was getting divorced at the time. And I said absolutely,

1430
01:40:09,840 --> 01:40:13,360
Speaker 1: Let me get out of the hospital recoup, and I

1431
01:40:13,439 --> 01:40:15,599
Speaker 1: left and I went back home. And then I had

1432
01:40:15,640 --> 01:40:19,599
Speaker 1: an office at Warners in New York, which they were

1433
01:40:19,720 --> 01:40:24,000
Speaker 1: very nice about. And I had that for some years,

1434
01:40:24,720 --> 01:40:29,240
Speaker 1: and then just one thing led to another, and I maintained.

1435
01:40:29,400 --> 01:40:32,960
Speaker 1: I spoke to Lenny yesterday last night. Days and my

1436
01:40:33,080 --> 01:40:36,000
Speaker 1: friends and Lenny and I have born six hours apart,

1437
01:40:36,520 --> 01:40:40,679
Speaker 1: and so we have been friends for years. It's been fine.

1438
01:40:40,720 --> 01:40:43,479
Speaker 1: I mean, some of the best years of my life,

1439
01:40:43,479 --> 01:40:48,360
Speaker 1: for sure. And what occupies your time today. Other than

1440
01:40:48,400 --> 01:40:52,200
Speaker 1: that twelve to six am period, we covered every night

1441
01:40:52,240 --> 01:40:55,240
Speaker 1: at nine o'clock or most every night at nine o'clock.

1442
01:40:55,720 --> 01:41:00,160
Speaker 1: I go online with a close friend of mine in Minneapolis,

1443
01:41:00,280 --> 01:41:04,960
Speaker 1: a cognitive brain doctor who's a fabulous keyboard player, and

1444
01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:07,679
Speaker 1: we were talking one day and he told me, how

1445
01:41:08,280 --> 01:41:10,240
Speaker 1: you know, once a week is so his brother in

1446
01:41:10,320 --> 01:41:13,360
Speaker 1: law and some couple other guys come down. He has

1447
01:41:13,400 --> 01:41:15,840
Speaker 1: a studio down in the basement of his house where

1448
01:41:15,840 --> 01:41:20,160
Speaker 1: I've been. He grows wed against the studio. His friends

1449
01:41:20,200 --> 01:41:23,120
Speaker 1: come over, they have a beer, smoke a joint and

1450
01:41:23,120 --> 01:41:26,360
Speaker 1: they play covers. I said, oh cool, let me here.

1451
01:41:27,080 --> 01:41:29,639
Speaker 1: So he played me a track one night. And these

1452
01:41:29,680 --> 01:41:34,280
Speaker 1: guys are really good musicians, I mean really good musicians.

1453
01:41:35,600 --> 01:41:38,080
Speaker 1: And I said, you know that sex is really cool?

1454
01:41:38,479 --> 01:41:40,800
Speaker 1: And it turns so I go on every night. There

1455
01:41:40,800 --> 01:41:45,679
Speaker 1: are many tracks and they're rerecording again because his wife

1456
01:41:45,680 --> 01:41:48,120
Speaker 1: will let people in the house again. They were all vaccinate,

1457
01:41:50,439 --> 01:41:53,960
Speaker 1: and I take these tracks and I because what you

1458
01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:58,000
Speaker 1: can do digitally these days. I am creating tracks with him,

1459
01:41:58,080 --> 01:42:02,280
Speaker 1: thankfully no vocals, and I send him to a good

1460
01:42:02,320 --> 01:42:06,080
Speaker 1: my friend, Jennifer Lioness, who connected with you to create

1461
01:42:06,120 --> 01:42:09,600
Speaker 1: this podcast. And she puts him up for licensing. And

1462
01:42:09,640 --> 01:42:11,880
Speaker 1: I don't care if anyone likes him and not. I

1463
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:17,599
Speaker 1: do something for two hours and have fun, okay. And

1464
01:42:17,600 --> 01:42:22,559
Speaker 1: and I have three fabulous new grandsons. How many children

1465
01:42:22,600 --> 01:42:26,840
Speaker 1: do you have? I have four children, so you've been

1466
01:42:26,880 --> 01:42:30,640
Speaker 1: married how many times? Twice? And the four children are

1467
01:42:30,680 --> 01:42:34,120
Speaker 1: from which marriage. I have a son and daughter from

1468
01:42:34,160 --> 01:42:37,680
Speaker 1: my first marriage and two daughters from my second marriage,

1469
01:42:37,960 --> 01:42:40,680
Speaker 1: and the daughters have I have a one year old

1470
01:42:40,720 --> 01:42:45,800
Speaker 1: grandson and three year old identical twins, and I can't

1471
01:42:45,800 --> 01:42:48,160
Speaker 1: get enough. And they all live in the New York

1472
01:42:48,200 --> 01:42:52,240
Speaker 1: area and they wont Mimi, who has the one year old,

1473
01:42:52,280 --> 01:42:56,080
Speaker 1: lives a six minute walk from where I grew up

1474
01:42:56,120 --> 01:42:59,160
Speaker 1: in Brooklyn, and my other one lives ten minutes away.

1475
01:42:59,479 --> 01:43:02,559
Speaker 1: To what agreed to the music business cause your first

1476
01:43:02,600 --> 01:43:09,120
Speaker 1: divorce only divorce? Well we you know we we we

1477
01:43:09,439 --> 01:43:12,720
Speaker 1: knew each other and we're still friendly. We knew each

1478
01:43:12,760 --> 01:43:16,040
Speaker 1: other since we were fourteen. In one place we were

1479
01:43:16,080 --> 01:43:19,479
Speaker 1: in Brooklyn, we knew the same people, We had the

1480
01:43:19,520 --> 01:43:23,120
Speaker 1: same friends. When we moved to California. I can't say

1481
01:43:23,200 --> 01:43:25,160
Speaker 1: that had anything to do with it. It was an

1482
01:43:25,280 --> 01:43:29,040
Speaker 1: entirely new environment. Meeting up, you know, a whole bunch

1483
01:43:29,040 --> 01:43:33,000
Speaker 1: of new people in different ways. You know, I was

1484
01:43:33,040 --> 01:43:36,160
Speaker 1: in the studio to a ridiculous hours. It couldn't have helped,

1485
01:43:37,280 --> 01:43:40,400
Speaker 1: but I can't attribute what part of it was. None

1486
01:43:40,400 --> 01:43:45,320
Speaker 1: of it helped. Okay, you're talking about rude and the cocaine.

1487
01:43:45,920 --> 01:43:48,920
Speaker 1: You know, Walter had his own issues. To what degree

1488
01:43:48,960 --> 01:43:52,639
Speaker 1: were you involved in drugs? I was fortunate. I've always

1489
01:43:52,680 --> 01:43:58,559
Speaker 1: liked smoking weed forever. I had friends, too, many friends

1490
01:43:59,000 --> 01:44:03,879
Speaker 1: who liked blow. I tried it a couple of times,

1491
01:44:05,040 --> 01:44:07,519
Speaker 1: but the best way I can describe it is every

1492
01:44:07,640 --> 01:44:10,439
Speaker 1: once in a while, very not often. It would be

1493
01:44:10,520 --> 01:44:13,240
Speaker 1: like twelve or one, and Fagin would say, you want

1494
01:44:13,240 --> 01:44:18,720
Speaker 1: to work late tonight, and uh, I'd say okay. And

1495
01:44:18,800 --> 01:44:23,800
Speaker 1: we always said, well there was a little vial there,

1496
01:44:23,840 --> 01:44:26,639
Speaker 1: and I can tell you why. But I'd say okay,

1497
01:44:26,640 --> 01:44:28,400
Speaker 1: and we put out a line, you know, that couldn't

1498
01:44:28,439 --> 01:44:32,320
Speaker 1: get a cat high, and I'd split it even and

1499
01:44:32,439 --> 01:44:34,839
Speaker 1: each of us would do you know, it's like a flake,

1500
01:44:35,320 --> 01:44:38,080
Speaker 1: And one of us would say, now I feel shitty

1501
01:44:38,120 --> 01:44:40,960
Speaker 1: and nervous, and that's how it made me feel. So

1502
01:44:41,080 --> 01:44:44,559
Speaker 1: I was lucky. I didn't like it. It was so

1503
01:44:45,720 --> 01:44:49,640
Speaker 1: around you all the time in those days. But I

1504
01:44:49,720 --> 01:44:52,160
Speaker 1: like smoking weed, which I still do, but I never

1505
01:44:52,200 --> 01:44:55,800
Speaker 1: liked any of the other drugs. Well, Gary, it's been

1506
01:44:55,840 --> 01:44:58,160
Speaker 1: great talking to you. There a lot of you know,

1507
01:44:58,320 --> 01:45:01,000
Speaker 1: important stuff that unfore and he's going to pass with

1508
01:45:01,040 --> 01:45:03,320
Speaker 1: the people who lived it. I'm glad we got a

1509
01:45:03,320 --> 01:45:07,920
Speaker 1: lot of this information. Thanks so much for doing this podcast. Thanks,

1510
01:45:08,320 --> 01:45:12,280
Speaker 1: I'm appreciating it. Nice meeting you. Until next time. The

1511
01:45:12,840 --> 01:45:17,320
Speaker 1: next time I'm here every night, listen, I'll start calling you.

1512
01:45:17,439 --> 01:45:20,320
Speaker 1: It's like Billy Gibbons, He's another one calls me after midnight.

1513
01:45:20,840 --> 01:45:25,000
Speaker 1: It's there's a club of those people. There should be more.

1514
01:45:25,360 --> 01:45:28,000
Speaker 1: Can I join the club? Well, I think we're all

1515
01:45:28,000 --> 01:45:30,360
Speaker 1: the club. You know, this is this is you know

1516
01:45:30,439 --> 01:45:35,200
Speaker 1: in terms of I'm more. I like to work after midnight,

1517
01:45:35,640 --> 01:45:39,080
Speaker 1: so I don't really like to talk and interact that much,

1518
01:45:39,560 --> 01:45:43,720
Speaker 1: which is different. But that's a private conversation. We'll leave

1519
01:45:43,760 --> 01:45:47,960
Speaker 1: the audience out of this. Thanks again, Thank you. Until

1520
01:45:48,000 --> 01:45:49,840
Speaker 1: next time. This is Bob left. Ste