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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great. We match.

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Speaker 2: I know, it's like like we planned it. We've coordinated this.

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Speaker 1: We did not. You know, I've never worn this color before,

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Speaker 1: so I was excited to wear it. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I've seen you. It's like we're just connected in

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Speaker 1: that way. Whoever, whatever outfits we're wearing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good.

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Speaker 1: Color on you, and you have a slightly different background,

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Speaker 1: which I love. We get to see more of the

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Speaker 1: man Cave, which I think some of our listeners and

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Speaker 1: our viewers are familiar.

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Speaker 2: With right now, you know, obviously, you know, in order

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Speaker 2: to probably have a more presentable visual experience on my side,

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Speaker 2: your yours ault has always been good.

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Speaker 1: But thank you.

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Speaker 2: You know, I tried to squeeze this video recording for

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Speaker 2: the podcast into my man cave, and you know it

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Speaker 2: was it was a tight squeeze. But we've got things

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Speaker 2: at least somewhat worked out now.

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Speaker 1: But the important thing is the fisher. Okay, right, everybody

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Speaker 1: is in their place. Your killer, your killer clownfish is

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Speaker 1: still there.

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Speaker 2: You check, they're still swimming around. So all's good. Though

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Speaker 2: I think I lost my lobster.

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Speaker 1: So, oh no, that's not good. How do you well,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you know how to tell if you've lost

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Speaker 1: a lobster. Why would you lose a lobster?

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Speaker 2: You know, they well, they have a life span. You know,

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Speaker 2: there may be certain times when the tank conditions are

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Speaker 2: quite optimal for an invertebrate like him. I just haven't

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Speaker 2: seen him emerge from his cave probably for two months now,

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Speaker 2: so I'm thinking he's likely likely done. They do, I mean,

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Speaker 2: they are very these reflopsters are very timid, you know,

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Speaker 2: so he just kind of scurries out, grabs his food,

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Speaker 2: and goes back underneath the cave. But he's just not

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Speaker 2: coming out, so I think he's he's done, which is

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sad about it, But the reality was

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Speaker 2: he was he took over. Even though he was the

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Speaker 2: victim of the serial killer clownfish. Once that particular clownfish

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Speaker 2: was gone, he ended up being the serial predator of

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Speaker 2: the tank. He would rush out of his cave and

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Speaker 2: snatch the snails as they were crawling by, and you know,

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Speaker 2: take them in. And I was just like, oh, I

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Speaker 2: didn't realize you were doing that. So I have a

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Speaker 2: feeling he probably took care of a couple of the

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Speaker 2: fish that I lost in the last six months too.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, what a drama. It's like, these are

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Speaker 1: the days of our lives and your fish tank. When

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Speaker 1: did you start with the fish tank to begin with?

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Speaker 1: Has this been like a lifelong thing that you've enjoyed

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Speaker 1: having fish?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I had a saltwater tank back in

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Speaker 2: my college days. You know, it was a small fifty

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Speaker 2: gallon tank. Didn't have a clue what I was doing.

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Speaker 2: There weren't the online resources that there are today to

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Speaker 2: learn and this is, you know, it is a fairly

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Speaker 2: complicated hobby and a very expensive one. So I always

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Speaker 2: kind of wanted to revisit having a saltwater tank, and

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Speaker 2: it was roughly about five years ago that I decided

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Speaker 2: to pull the trigger and start researching it and getting

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Speaker 2: it set up. And it takes, you know, for the

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Speaker 2: tank to mature. It literally takes a couple of years

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Speaker 2: for it to kind of grow into its own as

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Speaker 2: you know, you have to establish a microbiome. You have

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Speaker 2: to establish, you know, an ecosystem that's friendly across all

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Speaker 2: the various creatures you have in there, you know. And

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Speaker 2: I want it to be what's called a mixed reef,

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Speaker 2: which means I have the fish, I have the invertebrates,

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Speaker 2: I have the coral, and I right now, I've just

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Speaker 2: really struggled keeping coral alive. So I'm not even spending

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Speaker 2: money on that just yet until I get the you know,

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Speaker 2: the water conditions and the tank dialed in better.

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Speaker 1: Well. I love water creatures too, but I did it

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Speaker 1: the cheap and easy way, which is I lived along

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Speaker 1: a river in a creek together and I just hung

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Speaker 1: out and watched the frogs play on the lily pads

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Speaker 1: and checked on the fish and everything and darted around

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Speaker 1: cotton mouths which we had. And boy, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: remember watching I've always been kind of scared of snakes,

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Speaker 1: but I remember watching a snake go on top of

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Speaker 1: the water down the San Marcos River past where our

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Speaker 1: farm was, and it was just sort of slithering on

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Speaker 1: top of the water and the water was going at

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Speaker 1: a fast pace, and I just thought, that's frightening to me.

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Speaker 1: But it's also beautiful, and I understand why people get

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Speaker 1: so into animals like that. So I'm glad you like

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Speaker 1: the fish tank. I'm not sure that will be the

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Speaker 1: way I go. I might need to stick with Bailey

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Speaker 1: and Ruby, but we'll see. I know where to go

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Speaker 1: to if I want some fish.

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Speaker 2: I can try to give you advice if you ever

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Speaker 2: go that direction.

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Speaker 1: Well, I had wondered in the fifties what kind of

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Speaker 1: animals the you know, pets that the wealthy people had,

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Speaker 1: because that's where we are in the story. We're in

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Speaker 1: New York in the nineteen fifties, with I would have

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Speaker 1: to say, the wealthiest family we've ever talked about on

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Speaker 1: this show. And I see no mention of dogs or

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Speaker 1: anything like that. But we've certainly talked a lot about

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Speaker 1: you know, pigs and animals and all sorts of things

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Speaker 1: you know, involved in our stories. So I was just thinking,

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Speaker 1: I wonder if they had a pet. Probably not, though,

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Speaker 1: but I guess we'll see.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, the you know, pets come into play

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Speaker 2: at crime scenes all the time, they do.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's see what happens with this one. Okay, let's

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Speaker 1: go ahead and set the scene. We are on Long

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Speaker 1: Island on the Gold Coast in nineteen fifty five, great

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Speaker 1: time period. So this is an extremely wealthy area. I've

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Speaker 1: already sort of ruined that tease there. This is where

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Speaker 1: a lot of New York's wealthiest, most powerful families go.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes they live there, sometimes they're just visiting. So we're

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Speaker 1: talking about the names that I'm sure you've heard of,

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Speaker 1: the Vanderbilts and the Astors, and the Woolworths, the Morgans,

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Speaker 1: JP Morgan, and you know, they have these incredible, sprawling

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Speaker 1: estates that are just beautiful, the kind of estates I

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Speaker 1: think about when I think about England, you know, just

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Speaker 1: acres and acres and acres and private land and then

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Speaker 1: gated communities and guards and all of that. So already

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Speaker 1: we're setting ourselves up here for what will become a

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Speaker 1: high profile death because it involves a very high profile family.

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Speaker 1: So I hope you're excited about this because this is

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Speaker 1: not often we talk about this, This socioeconomic level of

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Speaker 1: people here.

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Speaker 2: Well, we have this sounds like, you know, the richest

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Speaker 2: families that the nation has ever had, at least some

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Speaker 2: of them, you know. So that's going to have to

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Speaker 2: come into play at some point when we get into

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Speaker 2: the crime itself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and we'll see. So the family we're focusing

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Speaker 1: on are the Woodwards, which was a family I've not

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Speaker 1: been familiar with when I've done research in this time

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Speaker 1: period and before about families. But the main person here

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Speaker 1: is Billy Woodward. He is the son of a prominent

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Speaker 1: banker named William Woodward Senior Oka And you know, Billy

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Speaker 1: is considered sort of a playboy. I'm not sure how

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Speaker 1: much he participated in family business. I think it sounds

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Speaker 1: like he benefited from his father's.

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Speaker 2: Wealth more like a trust fund baby, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, trust fund baby. I would say. Billy has an estate.

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Speaker 1: It's called Sunken Orchard and it is an Oyster Bay hove.

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Speaker 1: If you know anything about Long Island, very wealthy area

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Speaker 1: at that time. And this is sixty acres and it's

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Speaker 1: a Georgian style estate with lots of manicured gardens and

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Speaker 1: swimming pools and indoor tennis courts very to me, very

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Speaker 1: English gardens. This takes a lot of staff to keep up.

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Speaker 1: Two years ago they had bought a twenty five acre

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Speaker 1: piece of a neighboring estate that is surrounding a twelve

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Speaker 1: room residence overlooking these French gardens, and that was called

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Speaker 1: the Playhouse, and it had one At first I thought

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Speaker 1: the playhouse that it was a little naughty, but it's

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Speaker 1: really because it used to house the estate's classical music conservatory.

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Speaker 1: So okay, that's where that name comes from. So now

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Speaker 1: let me go ahead and show you you know this

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Speaker 1: place before we get into Billy's fans. So if you

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Speaker 1: go to the photos that I sent you, you just need

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Speaker 1: to look at photos one, two, and three.

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Speaker 2: So the first image I'm looking at here, I'm not

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Speaker 2: even I wouldn't call it a photo. It looks like

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Speaker 2: it's a it's a sketch, it's a map, but it's

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Speaker 2: of the Playhouse. And it appears that, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 2: you have large residential structures. You have an indoor tennis court,

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Speaker 2: there's a large parking lot.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: Obviously they maybe because of the you know, the music

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Speaker 2: that was played being played at this location, they would have,

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Speaker 2: you know, a fairly large audience coming to park their

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Speaker 2: their vehicles. But a lot of trees and a lot

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Speaker 2: of walking pathways. I'm struck, of course by the size,

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Speaker 2: you know, but the amount of vegetation that apparently is

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Speaker 2: surrounding this looks like it could be fairly dense, you know,

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Speaker 2: and you have walking past. It kind of reminds me

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Speaker 2: of envisioning, you know, the one scene in Harry Potter

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Speaker 2: in that labyrinth. I forget what that was called, but

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Speaker 2: i mean, you know, you kind of can't quite see past,

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Speaker 2: you know, the end of each row.

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Speaker 1: And Paul, I think this is just the twenty five

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Speaker 1: acres that we were talking about, yeah, or yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was twenty five acres that they bought, so you know,

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Speaker 1: this isn't even the full sixty acres that they have.

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Speaker 1: This is a lot of property where you can sneak

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Speaker 1: around a lot right most early.

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Speaker 2: Now I'm looking at the second photo. It looks like

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Speaker 2: it's a photo of there's definitely a water feature in

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Speaker 2: the backdrop, maybe a couple of lawns, you know, very

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Speaker 2: meticulously groomed bushes, and I'm sure probably has you know,

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Speaker 2: in spring, you know, flowers that are planted. But you

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Speaker 2: do have a significant, you know, amount of trees kind

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Speaker 2: of surrounding it, so you can't I mean in some

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Speaker 2: in one way, it's a neat space to kind of

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Speaker 2: hang out in and you're going to feel somewhat you know,

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Speaker 2: protected because of the trees that are surrounding it. But

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Speaker 2: at the same time, you don't have visibility outside of

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Speaker 2: this particular space, you know. So that of course is

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Speaker 2: something not knowing anything about this crime right now, but

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Speaker 2: that's just something I'm kind of noting. In case that

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Speaker 2: there has some you have somebody that's you know, coming

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Speaker 2: on to the property and able to get close to,

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Speaker 2: you know, the victim, they likely would be able to

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Speaker 2: do it undetected.

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Speaker 1: And I'll say this just from my point of view,

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Speaker 1: this is very clearly someone Billy Woodward, who cares about appearances,

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Speaker 1: who cares about you know, his status in life, the

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Speaker 1: way that he looks and the way that his property

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Speaker 1: is presented, and probably his family also because he is married,

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Speaker 1: and I'll tell you about Ann and a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But this is you know, we've got at least four

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Speaker 1: looks like little Greek statues. I mean, this is this

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Speaker 1: really is a presentation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, you know, and it's I mean it's

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Speaker 2: like a what do you want to say, like they're

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Speaker 2: breaking rights? Yeah right, yeah, you know I can afford this,

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Speaker 2: and I can afford to keep it up. You know.

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Speaker 2: It's almost that pretentious aspect, that characteristic, you know. And

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Speaker 2: then the last photo you want me to look at

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Speaker 2: is the front of a large house. You can see

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Speaker 2: the front door. There's you know, kind of a cover

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Speaker 2: over it, with some columns at least two stories, maybe

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Speaker 2: some attic space or attic rooms that I can see

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Speaker 2: on the roofline, multiple chimneys. This house itself doesn't look massive,

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Speaker 2: but it most certainly looks expensive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah it is. And you know, I think that they

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Speaker 1: have multiple properties, and so I think sprawling for a

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Speaker 1: lot of them is how it seemed to be described.

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Speaker 1: And this is Georgian style architecture. I mean, it's beautiful,

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Speaker 1: it's beautiful, but this just gives you I kind of

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Speaker 1: straight away I wanted to say, this is the level

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Speaker 1: of wealth we're talking about. Yeah, so let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the night of the incident. So it's October thirtieth. Leaves

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Speaker 1: are probably beautiful at this time in Long Island. They

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Speaker 1: are going to a very fancy party. And when I

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Speaker 1: say they, I mean Billy and his wife Anne, she's

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Speaker 1: thirty nine. They have two young boys who are at

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Speaker 1: the house at the time. Billian and leave and they're

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Speaker 1: going to, you know, one of many social engagements for

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Speaker 1: the fall for them. This is a black tied dinner

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Speaker 1: with a lot of other high society socialites. This dinner

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Speaker 1: is hosted by George and Edith kine Baker, who I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I do know who this was an honor

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Speaker 1: of which was the Duke and Duchess of Windsor. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you know you know the story

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Speaker 1: of this, but this was Edward, the eighth former King,

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Speaker 1: who abdicated because he wanted to be with and subsequently

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Speaker 1: married a woman named Wallace Simpson, who was American socialite

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Speaker 1: and twice divorced, and it caused quite a scandal and

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Speaker 1: he said I don't want to be king anymore, and

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Speaker 1: he left. And this is where we end up with

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Speaker 1: Queen Elizabeth's second father. So you know, they're in America.

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Speaker 1: They've either moved there by nineteen fifty five or they're

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Speaker 1: an American. Awful lot billion and Woodward are in this

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Speaker 1: social circle which is just incredible. I mean, the amount

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Speaker 1: of wealth must have been amazing. So they're at this

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Speaker 1: party with you know, the former King of England and

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Speaker 1: his wife. So it gets to me, it gets you

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Speaker 1: this world gets even wilder too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you know, of course you've got the you know,

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Speaker 2: the wealth, the social status, but there also has to

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Speaker 2: be extreme politics at play, yeah, amongst probably everybody within

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Speaker 2: this party, yep.

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Speaker 1: And lots of egos and all of that, and lots

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Speaker 1: of business transactions. Now I don't know if Billy is

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Speaker 1: involved with this, because I don't think Billy is involved

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Speaker 1: with much of anything regarding business. As we said, I

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Speaker 1: think he just you know, ends up spending his father's money,

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Speaker 1: and then I believe Anne spends Billy's money, which is

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Speaker 1: William Senior's money. So this is a great party by

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Speaker 1: any standard. From what everybody says. There are some concerns

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Speaker 1: that are circulating around this group of friends, this wealthy group.

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Speaker 1: So they're tipsy and they're gossiping, and while Billy is

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Speaker 1: bragging about his new Helio Courier, which is a four

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Speaker 1: seat plane that he just bought in Kansas. He's bragging

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Speaker 1: about this. Sure everybody else is, you know, a little

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Speaker 1: bit anxious because there has been a spat of burglaries

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Speaker 1: in the area, which would be alarming to anyone, but

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Speaker 1: especially people of this kind of wealth. They're talking about

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Speaker 1: two days ago, someone had burglarized the house of a

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Speaker 1: different couple. The Bearings and the Woodwards say that they

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Speaker 1: were concerned also because their home had not been burglarized,

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Speaker 1: but the property manager notified them that there was evidence

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Speaker 1: that someone had been squatting in their garage. And remember

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Speaker 1: sixty acres, you know, and we're talking about just a

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Speaker 1: mass amount of property in a lot of buildings where

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Speaker 1: it's possible that and Billy had not even been even

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Speaker 1: remotely close to this garage for a really long time,

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Speaker 1: and maybe wouldn't have even had a reason to be

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Speaker 1: there because probably they had drivers. So what, I'll give

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Speaker 1: you the detail and then I want your reaction. So

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Speaker 1: what the property manager said was the day before this party,

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Speaker 1: the property manager said that a window had been broken

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Speaker 1: in the garage and open cans of food had been

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Speaker 1: found in this poolhouse cabana area also, and the manager

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Speaker 1: said that there were prints near the estate's main entrance,

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Speaker 1: which I guess was unusual. I don't think people were

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Speaker 1: allowed to come up to that part of the entrance.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about their guard situation or anything like that,

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Speaker 1: but it was alarming to billion and not alarming enough

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Speaker 1: to you know, add new safeguards. But things were happening

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Speaker 1: in this area that was concerning. I think to everybody

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Speaker 1: at this level of wealth.

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Speaker 2: Well, burglaries are you know, if you are a victim

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Speaker 2: of a burglary, even though it is a property crime,

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Speaker 2: typically there's such an intrusion into your personal space. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it truly is traumatizing for people that suffer this, And

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Speaker 2: of course they're if there is property that has been lost,

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Speaker 2: especially if there's a lot of value to or sentimental

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Speaker 2: value to that property, that just you know, adds to

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Speaker 2: the you know, the victimization. You know, the squatting in

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Speaker 2: the garage, window being broken in, guy go in, it

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Speaker 2: looks like he's going after food. You know. On one hand,

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Speaker 2: that could suggest you are dealing with somebody who's transient, right,

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Speaker 2: and they're just taking advantage of this large property and

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Speaker 2: knowing that there's you know, food and maybe some valuables

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Speaker 2: that they'll be able to get. However, I wouldn't put

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Speaker 2: it outside through the possibility that you have an individual

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Speaker 2: that is in essence trolling this neighborhood and is spending

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Speaker 2: considerable time, particularly considering the size of these properties, the

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Speaker 2: ability to move around without being detected as they evaluate,

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Speaker 2: you know, where they're going to hit, and just the

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Speaker 2: normal course of life during the day, they get hungry

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Speaker 2: and so they're going to eat, you know, and this

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Speaker 2: is where you know, like the Golden State killer Jodangelo

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Speaker 2: during his East Area rapist phase, you know, he often

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Speaker 2: would eat the victim's food and drink their beer or

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Speaker 2: their soda. And some say behaviorally that's you know, kind

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Speaker 2: of further expressing power control over the victims, which it is,

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Speaker 2: but it also is the practical nature. He was out

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Speaker 2: there prowling all the time, and it's been a long

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Speaker 2: time since he's he's had food or drink, and so

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Speaker 2: that's one of those things that I'd be as this proceeds.

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Speaker 2: You know, you do have at least what sounds like

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Speaker 2: an act of criminal in this neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: Do we often see people who are squatting or robbing

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Speaker 1: escalating for some reason, because we have talked about peeping

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Speaker 1: toms escalating their behavior oftentimes sometimes oftentimes to sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: Do we see the same thing in squatters or people

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Speaker 1: who are kind of coming in and and you know,

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Speaker 1: taking over a little bit and then leaving.

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Speaker 2: Yes, these these individuals aren't restricting themselves to one type

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Speaker 2: of crime. You know, when they are let's say a

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Speaker 2: neighborhood and going out and committing burglaries, it's not uncommon

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Speaker 2: that they're also taking advantage of maybe running across a

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Speaker 2: victim and then there's a sexual assault. Or there are

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Speaker 2: times when you have somebody that is in the area

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Speaker 2: and ends up killing you know, whether it's because they

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Speaker 2: got caught while they're inside the house, or they have

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Speaker 2: other nefarious reasons to commit homicide. So, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: something in law enforcement that we do see. There isn't

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Speaker 2: necessarily the like the fantasy motivation that serial predators have

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Speaker 2: that can lead to evolution and escalation. We are dealing

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Speaker 2: with a different type of psychology when you're dealing with

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Speaker 2: somebody that is more interested let's say in financial gain

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Speaker 2: through property crimes. But given a set of circumstances, either

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Speaker 2: for self preservation or you know, being onder the influence

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Speaker 2: of a substance, you know, they end up committing more

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Speaker 2: serious violent crimes for sure.

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Speaker 1: So let's go ahead and get into what happens, and

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Speaker 1: then I'll be interested in seeing what you think about

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Speaker 1: if there is potentially a connection. So they are partying

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Speaker 1: with the former king and his wife and all of

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Speaker 1: these social lights. Around one am, the Woodwards decide to

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Speaker 1: come home. So they get back to sunken Orchard, and

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Speaker 1: they're mildly paranoid, as I think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: would be. So they are going room to room checking

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Speaker 1: for anybody, you know, who might be hiding in the rooms.

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Speaker 1: They check on the boys, their kids. They haven't found

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Speaker 1: anything that's unusual, so they go to bed. So let's

380
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Speaker 1: start with this. So antikes a sleeping pill, and they

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Speaker 1: have separate not just separate beds, they have separate bedrooms.

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Speaker 1: Separate beds in the same room were not in common.

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Speaker 1: That's how my grandparents were, and separate bedrooms in general

384
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Speaker 1: were not that uncommon, and especially in wealthier families when

385
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Speaker 1: they could afford to have separate bedrooms. The idea, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you wanted to sleep together, you could sleep together,

387
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Speaker 1: but you would get more rest separately. Of course, if

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Speaker 1: you are a couple who has some acrimony and are

389
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Speaker 1: going through some troubles, then having separate bedrooms is an

390
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 1: even better idea. I just don't want there to be

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Speaker 1: any suspicion just because they have separate bedrooms, because it's

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Speaker 1: just a different time period.

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Speaker 2: Sure, and I think, you know, just you know, stating

394
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Speaker 2: the obvious. Now you have the male in one bedroom,

395
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Speaker 2: you have Anne in another bedroom. She is under the

396
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Speaker 2: influence of a sleeping pill, you know, so her senses

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Speaker 2: are dulled. And so each of these individuals are now

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Speaker 2: isolated from each other as well as from their children.

399
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Speaker 2: Now you said that these were two young boys. Is

400
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Speaker 2: there a nanny or a caretaker in the in the

401
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 2: house that was present while they, you know, the Woodwards

402
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Speaker 2: were at the party?

403
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Speaker 1: Now, I imagine so, But I don't see a mention

404
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 1: of a nanny or a babysitter or a governess in

405
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Speaker 1: the house at the time. The boys are there and

406
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,640
Speaker 1: the couple is there and that's it. But I don't

407
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 1: believe they left the boys alone during this party. Now

408
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: a note, there is an eighteen foot long hallway between

409
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Speaker 1: Anne's bedroom and Billie's bedroom. So why don't you tell me?

410
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Speaker 1: Is that a long way between, like if there's an emergency,

411
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Speaker 1: or is that I'm so bad at distances? I mean,

412
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Speaker 1: does that seem close or does that seem sort of

413
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Speaker 1: like a you know, other ends of a house.

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Speaker 2: Let's think of the typical size bedroom in a middle class,

415
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 2: standard middle class house, and I'd say roughly ten feet

416
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 2: by ten feet. So if you put two of those

417
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Speaker 2: average bedrooms together, now you're exceeding that eighteenth foot length.

418
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Speaker 2: And that's one of those As I'm visualizing this hallway

419
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 2: connecting the two bedrooms, my senses is that the doors

420
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: leading into these bedrooms were probably you know, on opposite

421
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 2: ends of each bedroom, and the bedroom spaces themselves were

422
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 2: joined by a singular wall, you know, which possibly could

423
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 2: suggest that Ann's bed is butting up against the same

424
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 2: wall that Billy's bed is. Right now, I'm just speculating,

425
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 2: but at least you know, that distance in and of itself,

426
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Speaker 2: depending on how the bedrooms are configured, could be a

427
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 2: pretty significant distance. If you start talking about you know,

428
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 2: somebody seeing or hearing something. But it all depends on

429
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 2: how these bedrooms are actually configured with each other.

430
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Speaker 1: So there is an eighteen foot long hallway between Billy's

431
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Speaker 1: room and Anne's room. And this is a twelve room

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Speaker 1: home that I showed you the picture of, so you

433
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 1: had mentioned. I mean, it's it's large, but it's not this,

434
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 1: you know, palace mansion, but this is you know, this

435
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: is a place where they were able to check themselves,

436
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: make sure the boys were okay. They go to bed.

437
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: So about an hour after they get home, it's two

438
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: oh seven, the Nassau County operator Long Island gets a

439
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: hysterical phone call. Someone has been shot at the Woodward residence.

440
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 1: There's a murder. They follow up and say, and this

441
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: is about as I said before, about an hour after

442
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 1: the Woodwards got home. So the police respond quickly. I

443
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: would hope not more quickly than if this were a

444
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,880
Speaker 1: middle class or a low class house. But they respond

445
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: very quickly. Seventeen minutes later, and considering kind of how

446
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: it spread out these estates were, it sounds like they

447
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: moved pretty quickly. The responding officer was Lieutenant c. Russell

448
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: Half and he's with the Oyster Bay Cove Police and

449
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 1: then there's a district attorney named Frank Gulata, and there

450
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 1: is a Nasau County Chief detective, and they all come

451
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: to the scene because this is a well known family.

452
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: So they find Anne with blood smeared on her face

453
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,439
Speaker 1: and her hands and her nightgown. But Anne is not

454
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: the victim. Billy's the victim. When they find her, she

455
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: is weeping inconsolably by Billy's body. His body is between

456
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 1: the doorframe of the bedroom in the hallway, and he's

457
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 1: totally naked because presumably he was in bed or getting

458
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: into bed at the time. So what do you want

459
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: to know first kind of the weapon in the scene

460
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 1: or you know, and then I'll have autopsy reports. What's

461
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: the best way to go? Do you think?

462
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: Well? I think firstus is a comment. You know, you

463
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: have this historical phone call coming in at two o

464
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 2: seven am, and that sounds like that must have been Anne.

465
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 2: It's important to kind of put context into the timing

466
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 2: of the response. As you know, now you have your

467
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 2: standard telephone operator receiving this hysterical phone call. That operator

468
00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 2: now has to reach out and connect to law enforcement,

469
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: or connect and to law enforcement in order for that,

470
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 2: you know, that information is passed in order to get

471
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 2: the first responders rolling. It's it's interesting that we have,

472
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 2: you know, there was the see here we have a lieutenant,

473
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: you have you have the DA, you know, and then

474
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: also you have the detective chief rolling out, and you

475
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 2: know the DA, you know, rolling out immediately would suggest

476
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 2: that there was a telephone tree that happened right when

477
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: whoever receives the phone call about who's been killed. You know,

478
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 2: now there's that oh shit, And now you have up

479
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: at the ups, higher ups within these various law enforcement

480
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 2: entities who possibly have personal relationships with the family. Possibly

481
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 2: the family are donors to some of the elected officials.

482
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 2: You know, there's politics at play with that, and now

483
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: they're all rolling out, and you know, this has tremendous

484
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 2: influence on the subordinates who are also tasked with investigating

485
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 2: the case and processing the crime scene. So be interesting

486
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 2: to see how that plays into how the case progresses

487
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 2: moving forward. I mean, I can think of a modern

488
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 2: case in which the former elected DA who is now

489
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 2: a defense attorney, was allowed in by the local law

490
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 2: enforcement agency going oh, he's just one of us, and

491
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 2: that now that that attorney is seeing the crime scene

492
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 2: and is able to advise his clients, you know, how

493
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: to you know, be interviewed, how to answer certain interview questions.

494
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 2: So you know that case was contaminated from the very beginning.

495
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 2: And you know, so this is all, this is where

496
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 2: there's reasons why. You know, when you have a crime,

497
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: you start restricting access and it's not just to protect

498
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: physical event, and it's to protect the case itself.

499
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this turns into a really big case. So

500
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: the weapon is a shotgun. He has been shot with

501
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: what they called bird shot. So first explained bird shot.

502
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, the shotguns you know they have you know, they're

503
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: a smooth bore weapon and you have different what are

504
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: called gauges of shotgun. The most common one that people

505
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 2: will have heard of his twelve gauge, and that's just

506
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 2: the diameter of a way to measure the diameter of

507
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: the inn the inner diameter of the bore of the weapon.

508
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 2: The types of ammunition that shotguns can use can vary significantly,

509
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 2: and when you start taking a look at the typical

510
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: shotgun rounds, in essence, you have a plastic shell that

511
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 2: has a brass or metal base to it that houses

512
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 2: the primer. In essence, when the you know, the trigger

513
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: is pulled, you now have the you know, the firing

514
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: pin striking that primer, which is what ignites the gunpowder

515
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 2: and pushes the ammunition out the bore of the shotgun. Typically,

516
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 2: inside these shot shells you have you know, metal balls

517
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 2: for lack of a better word, and the type of ammo,

518
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 2: the size of these balls can vary considerably. So when

519
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 2: you start talking about something like bird shot, now you

520
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 2: have and I couldn't tell you what the typical number is,

521
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 2: but you let's say, over a hundred of these very

522
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: small metal balls that when when the shotgun is fired,

523
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 2: all of those metal balls go down rage in order

524
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: to strike the target versus. You know, something that law

525
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 2: enforcement uses in their twelve gate shotguns is what we

526
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 2: call double buck and this is nine marble size metal

527
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 2: balls you know, that are much more lethal when firing

528
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: at a larger animal such as a human. So bird

529
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: shot with these small, lightweight metal balls, you know, they

530
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 2: are designed to disperse. So you have basically this large

531
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: cloud of metal balls flying down field and they spread

532
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,239
Speaker 2: out wider and wider the further they go downfield. But

533
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: this is to ensure that you actually hit the game

534
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 2: that you're hunting. The birds as an example, that you're

535
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 2: hunting and you have these small balls that are hitting

536
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: the small animal and it's lethal to that animal. So

537
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 2: it's not like, you know, creating these devastating injuries from

538
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 2: a distance, where now if you plan on eating that animal,

539
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: you've got a problem. So the use of the bird shot,

540
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 2: you know that that may not have been a purposeful

541
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 2: decision by the shooter. That may have just been what

542
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: was available to the shooter, but it does have influence

543
00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: in terms of the injury, the assessing the distance that

544
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: you know the shooter was standing at the time Billy

545
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:09,719
Speaker 2: was shot, you know, so that's generally real loosely, you

546
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 2: know how I would characterize what bird shot is. And

547
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 2: I'm sure any firearms examiners listening to me are going,

548
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 2: come on, Paul, you can do better than that. But

549
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: that really, you know, I think for the listeners that

550
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: should should suffice. Of course, you know, with the door

551
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 2: knob being blasted off, did Billy have the practice of

552
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: locking his door when he goes into his bedroom, considering

553
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 2: you know how security conscious you know, they demonstrated by

554
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 2: coming into the house and searching, basically clearing the house

555
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 2: to make sure there wasn't anything amiss or anybody that

556
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 2: was in there that shouldn't be in there. Maybe you

557
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 2: know that night because they're kind of freaked out by

558
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 2: the local burglaries and the squatter and the garage that

559
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: they're taking extra security measures. And you know, a shotgun

560
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: it can be used to shoot through these door mechanisms.

561
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna have to jump around and give you

562
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: some information because I do think you're going to need

563
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 1: to understand the sequence because it's slightly confusing to me. Okay,

564
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: so let's start with it was a twelve gage shotgun.

565
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: It is lying next to Ann. She knows how to

566
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: use a shotgun, as does Billy. Is a hunter and

567
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 1: goes on hunts with him. Not to bury the lead anymore,

568
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: but she confesses immediately. And that's why I think the

569
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: sequencing part is going to be really important.

570
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: And this is this sounds like it's a question of

571
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: accidental versus homicide exactly.

572
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: I had that line written right down here, that accident

573
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: or is it murder? And so we have some photos

574
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: that could be helpful, but I think where his body

575
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: is versus where the blood is is interesting. So I

576
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: told you it's a twelve gage shotgun. She says she

577
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: fired the shotgun at a dark figure in the hallway.

578
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: She said it was an accident because she thought it

579
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: was one of those squatter robber intruders she couldn't see clearly.

580
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: Then she finds out it's Billy. Then she immediately calls

581
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: the operator to get the police over.

582
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: She's lying, man, don't end this.

583
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: We we still have a lot to talk about.

584
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: No. Well, you know this is where, you know, correlating

585
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 2: the crime scene evidence versus the now suspect statements is

586
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 2: so critical, and you know, most most certainly you know

587
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 2: right now the injuries, the bird shot injuries to Billy's

588
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 2: neck and face could be consistent with being shot in

589
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 2: the hallway. However, you have a you have a shotgun

590
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 2: that's been used to shoot the you know, lock the

591
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 2: locking mechanism on the door, and you have bird shot

592
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 2: impacting the wall inside that that bedroom. There's nothing about

593
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 2: her statement that could account for that firearms evidence at

594
00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 2: this point. So I think any you know, very very

595
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 2: novice investigator would be looking at this crime scene and

596
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 2: listening to her statement going that's not adding up. You know,

597
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,800
Speaker 2: and maybe she's leaving out detail. There's you know, possible trauma,

598
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 2: you know that she suffered that you know, is causing

599
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 2: you know, her initial statements to be so far off,

600
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 2: you know. But right now that's a red flake.

601
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let me tell you what she says, and

602
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: then what the physical evidence shows, and then there are

603
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: a couple photos for you. This is what she says. So,

604
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: I mean, let's forget about the emotion the prowler. We

605
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: all understand that, you know, they looked for signs of intruders.

606
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 1: Everybody's paranoid. She said, about two o'clock, she was startled

607
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: awake by a noise. Remember they're eighteen feet away down

608
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: a hallway. There are shadows moving around the wall in

609
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 1: her bedroom. Her bedroom door, I presume is open. They

610
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 1: have a miniature poodle named Sloppy, great name. The dog

611
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: is barking in the kitchen and she thinks there's a prowler.

612
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: Now they're on the first floor. They're not on this

613
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 1: sid second floor. This is the first floor of you know,

614
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: this residence. And she gets the shotgun, which is resting

615
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: on a chair in her bedroom. She knows how to

616
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 1: use a shotgun, and just so you know, Billy has

617
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: in his bedroom in his desk there is a shotgun

618
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: and a pistol, and the pistol is actually still in

619
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: its holster, and they both belonged to Billy. So you

620
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: know there are weapons throughout this house. But she's got

621
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: a shotgun that's loaded. She says that she grabs a

622
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: shotgun from her chair. She steps into the dark hallway

623
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 1: two am. She has a sleeping pill in her system. Remember,

624
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: she sees the outline of a man. She shoots twice.

625
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: Bird shot is sprayed down the corridor. Pellets from the

626
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: second shot ricochet off the bedroom door at the end

627
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: of the hallway, and the man fell. When the gunpowder cleared,

628
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: she saw that he had not, in fact been, you know,

629
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: an intruder, that this was Billy. So she calls the

630
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: operator first and then she calls her attorney. Both smart

631
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: moves as far as I'm concerned. So what I get

632
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,959
Speaker 1: confused about is is the door opener shut. It says

633
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 1: that the handle, right, we get that detail that the

634
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 1: handle had been blown off. But I'm going to show

635
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: you a photo in a second that shows the pool

636
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: of blood. It looks like in his bedroom and that's

637
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: where I was kind of going and understand what's happening here.

638
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 1: So if you look at photo number, well, interesting photo

639
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: as to ask you about forensically, but we can wait

640
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,479
Speaker 1: on that. They're carrying his body out, and so that's

641
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: on page four, but on page five you see the bedroom.

642
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: So you can, Paul, either discuss what I presume is

643
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: not the greatest way to bring a body out, I

644
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: mean maybe it is, or you can talk about the

645
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: blood pooling whatever you want to do.

646
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, in essence, say you have four officials actually

647
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 2: three who are actually carrying Billy's body out. Looks like

648
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 2: it's wrapped up and something akin to, you know, like

649
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 2: a hammock. His feet are handle yeah, pass handles. Uh,

650
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 2: you know, they're literally just carrying him like a you know,

651
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 2: like a Duffel bag, just each one taking a handle.

652
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 2: His feet bare feet are sticking out the end of it.

653
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 2: The material of that carrying case appears to be some

654
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 2: sort of fabric, you know, and so this, you know,

655
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 2: from a trace evidence standpoint, is less an ideal. You know.

656
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 2: Of course, today we have body bags that you can

657
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: zip up before you move the body.

658
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: Uh.

659
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 2: These body bags, uh protect the body from contamination, though

660
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 2: the body can contaminate itself inside the body bag. What

661
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 2: we call the body bag effect sort of like a

662
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 2: shaken bake, if you will.

663
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,439
Speaker 1: Shaking bake is in like a chicken shaking bake.

664
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 2: You know, you think about you throw the you know,

665
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,760
Speaker 2: the chicken into what do they call that pinko or whatever,

666
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 2: and you shake it up in order get it covered. Well,

667
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 2: you throw a body in a body bag, and because

668
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,240
Speaker 2: of the jostling and moving the body into the corner's

669
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 2: van and at the morgue and everything else, you know,

670
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 2: blood redistributes, you get new blood patterns, you get you know,

671
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: possibly foreign blood that gets you know, diluted by the

672
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 2: victim's own blood. And so it's it's not kind to

673
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 2: the physical evidence on the body if it hasn't been

674
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 2: documented in processed at the crime scene prior to being

675
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 2: put in a body bag. But these modern body bags,

676
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 2: you know, first oftentimes they the zippers are are closed

677
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 2: and then they're they're sealed with a clasp that has

678
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 2: to be broken in order to unzip the bag. So

679
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 2: it's part of the chain of custody aspects of transporting

680
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 2: a body from the crime scene to the morgue. So

681
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 2: when the pathologist or the pathology assistant and investigators are

682
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 2: there to reopen that body bag, they can tell that

683
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 2: the body hasn't been tampered with since it left the

684
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 2: crime scene. Here, you don't have that type of mechanism.

685
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 2: Plus with the fabric, and you know, with bird shot,

686
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 2: if he shot at a distance, I mean, he's still

687
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 2: going to be bleeding pretty extensively, but it's very different

688
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 2: than a contact wound from a shotgun. But you have

689
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 2: fabric that's going to be absorbing that blood and then

690
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 2: possibly dripping that blood as Billy is being carried out

691
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 2: of the house. So now you have you know, dripped

692
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 2: trail from inside the house down the sidewalk up until

693
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 2: the time he's put in the back of whatever type

694
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 2: of vehicle is transporting him to the morgue. So yeah,

695
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 2: less than ideal, but this is nineteen fifty five, you know,

696
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: So it's just more of comparing and contrasting than versus.

697
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 1: Now, tell me about the bedroom. What do you think

698
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 1: about the bedroom and the blood there, and I can

699
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: try to get more details about this photo.

700
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 2: You know, the photo is quite grainy, and so to

701
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 2: describe the photo, it's a photo from inside the bedroom

702
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 2: with a photographer standing kind of on one side of

703
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 2: the bedroom looking towards the bed. The bed is on

704
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 2: the extreme left side of the photo. All I can

705
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,360
Speaker 2: see on the bed is basically the right side of

706
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 2: the headboard, some pillows and some sheets. And then there's

707
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 2: what appears to be two closet doors with a table

708
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 2: and lamp on it near the bed, and then a

709
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 2: chair in front of the other door, So the position

710
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: of that furniture suggests that that closet is not accessed

711
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 2: frequently by the residents. And then there's another chair that's

712
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 2: tucked in the corner. And then to the right wall

713
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 2: of the photographer there's another door that looks like a

714
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: door that would lead into a bathroom or into another

715
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 2: bedroom or out into a hallway. If that's the door

716
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 2: that they're saying that the locking mechanism was shot out,

717
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 2: I'm not seeing evidence of that in this photo, so

718
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's the front if that's the

719
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: actual door that would lead out of the bedroom, are not.

720
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 2: There appears to be like a desk or a table

721
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 2: in the foreground to the right of the photographer, but

722
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 2: in front of the two chairs across the room from

723
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 2: the photographer. On the floor is a blood pool. And

724
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 2: that blood pool just you know, rough guestimate is roughly,

725
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 2: you know, twelve inches by twelve inches, you know, I mean,

726
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 2: there's some you know, irregularity to it. This appears to

727
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 2: be a carpeted floor. And even though that blood pool

728
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 2: does not look very large in terms of its diameter

729
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 2: on the carpet, in my experience, if you have something

730
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 2: like a gunshot wound to the head and you have

731
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 2: the victim laying there for a period of time, the

732
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 2: blood pool itself isn't very large because the blood is

733
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 2: going down into the padding underneath the carpet and then

734
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 2: it spreads out like crazy in the padding. So once,

735
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 2: you know, our practice often would be to once the

736
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,959
Speaker 2: body's removed and we've documented the carpeting under the box

737
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 2: in the blood patterns, then we would cut that carpeting

738
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 2: to see what was going on underneath, how much blood

739
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,919
Speaker 2: was under there. And oftentimes with shootings, you know, there's

740
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 2: potential bullets that have passed through the victim's body into

741
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 2: the floor underneath the blood pool or surrounding area. So

742
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 2: right now, the blood pool is that's all I can

743
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 2: say about it. It shows location of where his you know,

744
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 2: his head was lying. Do you have a description of

745
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 2: how his body was lying, where his feet positioned, where

746
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 2: they're out in the hallway, and this door has been

747
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 2: closed after they removed the body or was he actually

748
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 2: fully in the bedroom.

749
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,439
Speaker 1: This is a sketch that looks like they're next door

750
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: to each other with a hole in between, and this

751
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: is the way they're portraying it.

752
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: Okay, So what I'm looking at is a hand drawn

753
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 2: sketch that is somewhat what I would kind of describe

754
00:43:55,800 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 2: as not quite an exploded view of the house, but

755
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 2: basically the house has been kind of cut in half

756
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 2: top to bottom, with the top being removed. And so

757
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: from the front door, I can see where there is

758
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 2: a hallway that leads back to where Anne and Billy's

759
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 2: bedrooms are, and they're actually adjacent to each other, but

760
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 2: separated by this long hallway that leads from the front

761
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 2: door going towards the back of the house, and there

762
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 2: appears to be an intersecting hallway with that long hallway

763
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 2: which the bedroom doors for Anne and Billy's bedrooms are on,

764
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 2: and those bedroom doors are literally right across the main

765
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 2: hallway from each other. And so with that positioning of

766
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 2: the bedrooms, they're now showing Anne holding a shotgun standing

767
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 2: right outside herb bedroom door and Billy in the process

768
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: of collapsing after having been shot, but fully out of

769
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: his bedroom in the hallway. That doesn't add up with

770
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 2: the blood pool that is inside the bedroom.

771
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. And now let

772
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: me tell you a little bit about the autopsy because

773
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: that might help you too. So this is what the

774
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: autopsy says. The autopsy takes place the next morning at

775
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: eleven fifteen, nine hours after the shooting. The medical examiner

776
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: says that one pin sized shotgun pellet killed Billy. It

777
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: was shot into his brain. There were three other pellets

778
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 1: he found inside his skull, but they had not been lethal.

779
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 1: So what the emmy says is based on where these

780
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,280
Speaker 1: pellets were and the injury to the brain, that Billy

781
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: may have survived for about fifteen minutes. So would that

782
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: have been enough time for him to maybe go and

783
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 1: bleed and then come back out. I don't even know

784
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: what that would mean to this case.

785
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 2: Is the fatal projectile? Why is a pathologist stating it's fatal?

786
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:11,479
Speaker 2: Is it because it's the one that penetrated into let's say,

787
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 2: a significant artery within the brain. And so now you

788
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 2: have bleeding within the skull and that's what the pathologist

789
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 2: is determining to be the cause of death. Or was

790
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 2: there a structure that was hit. Let's say you have

791
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 2: this pellet hitting his brainstem. You know, that's potentially going

792
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 2: to be immediately fatal or at least immediately incapacitating in

793
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 2: many instances, you know. So this comes from my perspective.

794
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: This does come into trying to evaluate Billy's ability to

795
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 2: move after being shot. You know. So let's say Anne

796
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 2: is accurate in her statement and that's really what happened.

797
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 2: She shot him out in the hallway, as him just

798
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,839
Speaker 2: trying to get away from the shooter. He goes into

799
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 2: the bedroom and lapses in there, and that could account

800
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 2: for the evidence. Right now, I would say, I can't

801
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 2: say one way or another based off of that. You know,

802
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 2: an observation, at least with the initial information from the

803
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 2: autopsy that in essence, you only have three pellets that

804
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 2: are penetrating the skull, that would suggest that the shot

805
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 2: was at a distance. I couldn't tell you law how

806
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: far that distance is because I would need to see

807
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 2: the pellet pattern, how much this bird shot had spread

808
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 2: as it went down range. But if you have so

809
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 2: few of this hundreds of pellets that are coming at

810
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 2: Billy penetrating his skull, that seems like it's somewhat consistent

811
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 2: with and statement of seeing a man at the end

812
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 2: of the hall and shooting him. So these pellets have

813
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 2: lost energy during flight before they impact Billy.

814
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I have information that says the shotgun blast

815
00:47:56,040 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: left wadding from the shell in the victim's chest, which

816
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 1: the emmy says didn't hurt him. Does that indicate close

817
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: or far away? Because I'll tell you there is a

818
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: ballistics expert who is a lieutenant with Nassau County, and

819
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: he says that he believes that the shots were fired

820
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 1: at a close range and not far away. So you

821
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 1: know that would be contradictory to her story.

822
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, so yeah, the wadding, So when these you know,

823
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 2: this shot, this bird shot is packed inside the shell.

824
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 2: It is in essence you have this and it depends

825
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 2: on the manufacture, but I will say it's almost like

826
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 2: this fibrous circular pad that matches the diameter of the

827
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: inside of the shot shell. That is a kind of

828
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 2: a buffer between the bird shot and the gunpowder, and

829
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 2: so it actually is a projectile and comes out of

830
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 2: the end of the shotgun. But because of its size

831
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 2: and its low density, you know, once it hits the

832
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 2: air at theloc it slows down rapidly. So we will

833
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:09,240
Speaker 2: typically find wadding from shotgun shootings, you know, relatively close

834
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 2: to where the shooter was standing, you know, a little

835
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,240
Speaker 2: ways downrange. And it varies on you know, the gauge

836
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 2: of the shotgun, the type of ammo, and you know

837
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,359
Speaker 2: the material of the wadding. But I would say if

838
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 2: this wadding penetrated into Billy's chest so earlier, I think

839
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 2: you described that Billy had shot patterns to his neck

840
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 2: and head.

841
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: Concentrated on his face, and his head is what they said.

842
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: The right side of his face and his neck are

843
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 1: speckled with bird shot. His cheek is a bloody pulp,

844
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 1: his ear is torn, his eye as badly wounded.

845
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,839
Speaker 2: But you have wadding that has penetrated the chest. That

846
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 2: I would agree with that second expert is that would

847
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:57,280
Speaker 2: suggest a reasonably close distance, possibly five ten feet away.

848
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 2: And that's a rough, rough guess, but I've wadding, you know,

849
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: penetrating a bedroom door in an auser involved shooting. And

850
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 2: I know that distance was probably you know, ten eight

851
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 2: ten feet away, so it's still traveling with some energy,

852
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 2: you know, eight ten feet away. But you know my

853
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 2: observation earlier of a few pellets penetrating the skull. If

854
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 2: you have the wadding going into the chest and it's

855
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 2: close enough distance, I would think that that entry wound

856
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,720
Speaker 2: for the wadding would be also surrounded by a pellet pattern,

857
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 2: you know. And maybe there's more pellets and it could

858
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 2: be denser in the neck area or the head area,

859
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 2: but I that's where that That's what I'm trying to

860
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 2: figure out, is what is the spread of the pellets

861
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 2: because that's what we use for distance determination on shotguns.

862
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 2: So if we measure the spread, we can take that

863
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 2: shotgun out with the same AMMO and shoot it at

864
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 2: different distances to try to see which distance replicates the

865
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 2: spread that we're seeing on the victim or at the

866
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 2: crime scene.

867
00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 1: Okay, I told you the handle was blasted on the

868
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 1: wall of the bedroom. Behind his body, there's scattered shot

869
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: that measures two feet wide. There is also no gunpowder

870
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: burns on his body, so they think that the shooter

871
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:14,439
Speaker 1: was at least fifteen feet away, and they said that

872
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: they recover wads of brown shotgun cartridge paper. Now I

873
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 1: had read on a separate document that it was in

874
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: his chest, but they just said recovered. So there's no

875
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: where there's no blood anywhere else in the house except

876
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: this one space.

877
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 2: So the twelve foot spread of the pellet pattern is

878
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 2: on the rear wall of the bedroom, you know. So

879
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 2: that's those are pellets that didn't strike him and continue

880
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 2: down range, and so of course they have an opportunity

881
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 2: to continue to spread after they pass Billy's body. So

882
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 2: the important pellet pattern is the pellet spread on the

883
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 2: injuries of Billy himself. So that's the distance that we

884
00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 2: have an interest in. Now with what's your saying, Okay, no,

885
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 2: they're not seeing gunpowder, they're not seeing suiting from firearms

886
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 2: discharge on his body. So that rules out, you know

887
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,919
Speaker 2: pretty much that this was not a cloase what would

888
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:16,760
Speaker 2: consider a close range shot. But the amount of damage

889
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 2: to his injuries, his ear, his cheek, his eye, it

890
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 2: sounds like this sounds like you still have a fairly

891
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,800
Speaker 2: concentrated pattern of pellets at the time grouping of pellets

892
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 2: at the time that he has struck, and you also

893
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 2: have his body being impacted by the wads. So that

894
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 2: seems to be consistent with what I would consider or

895
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:43,320
Speaker 2: call it intermediate range, But that can vary dramatically based

896
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 2: on the gun and the ammunition. However, at least with

897
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 2: my understanding of the observations on Billy's with Billy's injuries

898
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 2: and the firearms evidence, it could be consistent with and

899
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 2: story about the distance she fired the shotgun and struck Billy. Okay,

900
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 2: right now, I don't think I can refute and statement

901
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 2: on the actual firing of the shotgun. Now, the positioning

902
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 2: of his body, you know, that's that's important in this case.

903
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 2: And it appears that he is likely right outside the

904
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:25,399
Speaker 2: bedroom door when he shot, or is able to take

905
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,399
Speaker 2: a few steps back towards the bedroom and then collapses

906
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 2: where his bleeding injuries are creating that blood pool inside

907
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 2: the bedroom. Yet his feet, his lower body is you know,

908
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 2: sticking out into the hallway through the bedroom door.

909
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:43,720
Speaker 1: Now, if you go back and look at that photo

910
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: I showed you of the bedroom, does it make sense.

911
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,320
Speaker 1: Now there's a closed door that we presume is the

912
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 1: entrance to the bedroom on the right hand side, so

913
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 1: his head is laying where the blood pool is he is,

914
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 1: the rest of his body is sticking out into the

915
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 1: hall way. This looks like a decent sized bedroom, so

916
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 1: it makes sense for the bird shot to go all

917
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:07,959
Speaker 1: the way to the back wall, which we can't see

918
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 1: on the left hand side of the photo. Is that

919
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 1: that's correct? Does that make sense?

920
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 2: Okay, that's correct. And obviously this you know, there's been

921
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 2: an alteration the bedroom door. The body's been removed, the

922
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,280
Speaker 2: bedroom door has been closed at the time this photograph

923
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 2: has been taken, you know, right now. You know. My

924
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 2: concern is the information that the door mechanism had been shot,

925
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,919
Speaker 2: and at least in this photo, I mean, the door

926
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 2: handle looks completely intact, the locking mechanism underneath the door

927
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 2: handle looks intact. I'm not seeing any damage to the

928
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 2: door or the door frame that I would expect from

929
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 2: a close range shotgun blast, because that's going to cause

930
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 2: wood to splinter and be blown into the bedroom, and

931
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 2: none of that is present. So I don't think that's

932
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 2: accurate information. And this is where if Anne is making

933
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:06,919
Speaker 2: that statement as her initial statement, that is inconsistent Okay,

934
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 2: you know, so that's kind of my focus now on

935
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 2: trying to corroborate or refutes Anne's initial statement, also giving

936
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 2: her the benefit of the doubt of, you know, the

937
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 2: the trauma that she has just experienced from shooting Billy,

938
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:27,360
Speaker 2: whether it was intentional or whether whether it was accidental,

939
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 2: She's still going to be traumatized by that.

940
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 1: Well, one more ballistics thing. So apparently, I mean, she

941
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 1: was a hunter. She had taken this particular gun to

942
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: a wild boar hunt in the Western Alps the year before.

943
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 1: Her gun had been custom fitted to her body with

944
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: a twenty five inch It's a twenty five inch barrel

945
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 1: with gold leaf inlay. Does that make any kind of

946
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: a difference, don't make fun Does that make any kind

947
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:55,800
Speaker 1: of a difference.

948
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 2: No, you know, I the you know, the gold leaf

949
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,600
Speaker 2: inlay is just purelyative. Is not going to you know,

950
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 2: affect the functionality or the ballistics you know, related to

951
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,919
Speaker 2: this particular shotgun. Now, as far as a twenty five

952
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 2: inch barrel, you know, this is now getting into the

953
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 2: realm of where I would say you got to consult

954
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 2: with a firearms expert, because I don't know the length

955
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 2: of the standard barrel for this type of shotgun. Shotgun

956
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:24,760
Speaker 2: barrels can be choked, you know, they can be altered,

957
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 2: and that will alter the you know, the pellet distribution pattern.

958
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 2: You know. So at this point, I think that's probably

959
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:34,839
Speaker 2: the only detailed you know, the twenty five inches. If

960
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 2: that is radically different from let's say the standard make

961
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 2: and model of shotgun used, then that's going to be

962
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 2: something that has to be taken into account when you're

963
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 2: evaluating the you know, the firearms discharge evidence as well

964
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,839
Speaker 2: as the pellet pattern. There's a reason why we use

965
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 2: the actual gun that was used in the shooting when

966
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 2: we do distance determination because of these types of modifications

967
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 2: that can completely alter, you know, or I would say

968
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 2: at least significantly alter, you know, the evidence you know

969
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 2: from let's say, on a shotka and the pellow pattern.

970
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 1: So we have gotten through the autopsy report, the ballistics report,

971
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 1: the basics of what and Woodward says happened, and how

972
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: the wood Words spent their night before Billy Woodward ends

973
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 1: up dead in nineteen fifty five. So I have to

974
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: leave it here because their relationship plus another very very

975
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 1: viable suspect, are going to take up a whole other episode.

976
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 1: So you're going to have to wait another week and

977
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 1: think about all of this evidence, because this is a

978
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 1: did she kill him accidentally or did she do it

979
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: on purpose? Or during number three did somebody else do it? No?

980
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 2: I think it's it's interesting. I probably am walking back

981
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 2: a little bit on accusing Anne of lying with her

982
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 2: initial statement, but I still have concerns with her initial

983
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 2: statement based on the forensic evidence so far.

984
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, hopefully I'll have information that will enlighten you

985
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 1: on all different matters with this case.

986
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 2: All right, well, I'm looking forward to it.

987
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: See you in a week.

988
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 2: Thanks Kate.

989
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: Thanks. This has been an exactly right production for.

990
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com

991
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

992
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:26,720
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993
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

994
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:32,480
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995
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,080
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996
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:37,360
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997
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

998
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:45,400
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999
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1000
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1002
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Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now.

1003
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:58,080
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