WEBVTT - Fighting Back Against the Surveillance State 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:05.000 Also media. 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.240 Hello, welcome to it could happen here. 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:12.600 It's me today, James, and I'm very lucky to be 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:15.560 joined by Cooper Quentin, who is a senior staff technologist 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:18.239 at the EFF and Colonel Panic, who is a hacker. 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:21.680 And we are going to be talking today about. 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:24.280 The privacy apocalypse that is coming our way, I guess, 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.159 the end of privacy and what you can do just 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:29.160 stop it being the end of privacy. So thanks for 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:30.440 joining me both you. 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.720 Absolutely Hey, James, happy to be on the show again. 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:34.400 Thanks for having me. 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:36.320 Yeah, thanks for making the time. 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:39.400 So I guess, like in the case that somebody lives 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:43.519 under a rock, we should start breaking down some of 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:47.519 the different like surveillance mechanisms that the state is building. 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:50.760 And maybe Colonel Panic you can kick us off with 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:55.080 flock because that is the one that has probably got 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:56.840 the most attention recently, and then Cooper we could pick 0:00:56.920 --> 0:01:02.040 up on some of the many other private see violation tools. 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.440 Certainly, you may notice all these cameras popping up around 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:05.880 your town. 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:07.919 They're on a black pole. 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:10.760 It's a black camera with a solar panel, and these 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.759 are what we call flog cameras. They're really easy to spot. 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:18.120 But they're essentially ALPRs. They're automatic license plate readers, So 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:20.839 this is like a form of drag net surveillance where 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:23.720 anytime you drive by these things, they're just logging your 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:26.640 license plate. And they've expanded this to do other things 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:31.440 like facial recognition and gunshot detection and so on. Distressed 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:35.360 person detection is another one which is really dodgy. 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:38.600 Yeah, fascinating, but it just looks for people who are 0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:40.120 acting distressed. 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:42.600 Or I think it's a sound thing too, right. 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:47.440 Oh, okay, yeah, I think it's pretty similar to gunshot 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:50.960 detection in the books for people shouting, people in the 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:54.840 heightened state of emotion. Right, I mean this could really 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:57.400 easily be a protest detector, right yeah. 0:01:57.520 --> 0:01:59.400 Or imagine if that was a fucking peacock, like you 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:03.320 have cooks get angry. They really sounds like someone's dying 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:03.960 or folks. 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:06.600 So yeah, I mean false false positives. 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:10.040 Are already a huge issue for gunshot detections in general. 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:10.280 Right. 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:12.400 They can go off for a balloon popping, they can 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:13.600 go off for fireworks. 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.680 Yeah, and then just because you're in the area, you 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:19.080 know you're now part of an investigation. 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:21.519 So press, we should talk a little bit about some 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:23.360 of the other ones to keep it, Maybe we start 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:24.480 with facial recognition. 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:29.000 Yeah, yeah, facial recognition is all the raise these days. 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:34.640 A lot of law enforcement is unfortunately investing in this. 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.480 We've seen, of course, Ice with their Mobile Fortified tool 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.400 that's gotten a lot of press lately. And then this 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:44.400 is this is an app that that runs on Android 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:49.320 phones that they can scan people with and you know, apparently, 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:53.600 according to them, get a fully one hundred percent accurate 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:58.120 identity for that person within seconds. Anybody who understands facial 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:00.799 recognition will tell you that that is not true, and 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:03.960 that can't possibly be true. Facial recognition is never one 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:07.880 hundred percent accurate, and in fact, there have been dozens 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:11.320 of cases where people have been falsely arrested and wrongfully 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:16.359 imprisoned and charged because of incorrect facial recognition results. 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:19.760 This has also already happened in the case of Mobile Fortify. 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:24.359 There was a woman in Oregon who I scanned her 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.799 face and they scanned her twice. Both times it came 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:30.600 up with a different identity for this woman. And it 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.760 turns out that both of those identities, neither of them 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:34.920 were the correct. 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:35.840 Identity for this woman. 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:40.920 Jesus but it has been using this as as a 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:43.800 you know, sort of judge jury and execution to determine 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:49.200 whether to arrest, detain, and possibly even deport somebody. 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:49.880 Wow. 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:51.880 Yeah, yeah, it's pretty bleak. 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:55.000 Something that happens if when you come to the United 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:57.000 States you're a migrant rate is that they will collect 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:00.640 a large amount of your biometric data. But it seems 0:04:00.680 --> 0:04:02.920 to be even with all of that, the resolution that 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:04.640 they have on the scan, it's actually very poor. 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.840 Yeah, yeah, that's I mean, that's that is correct, right. 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:10.720 So the way that this works, the databases that they have, 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:15.800 it's checking against various immigration databases. We think that it's 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.640 most likely checking against the like tsa database of biometric 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:22.440 scans that you do every time you take a flight. 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.320 Of course, all of the at the border biometric scans, 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:28.679 the ingress and egress scans. Yeah, any sort of visa 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:33.159 information or anything like that. There's also the clearview AI, 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:35.960 so even if you've never done any of these, there's 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:38.280 another app called clear Viewer which is used by law 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.120 enforcement and by ICE, which does a similar thing. But 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:44.560 it's back end data is all of the photos that 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:50.960 have been posted online, so they're using data from social media, Facebook, Instagram, 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:54.040 everything else to make a face match and determine who 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:56.960 you are based on that sort of publicly available data 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:57.440 as well. 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:01.560 Great, Yeah, they would have reassuring thing to hear. 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:05.920 High cost of the free service, Yeah absolutely. 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:08.560 Let's talk about a couple of other things. I think 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:12.880 those are things that people have a very reasonable fear 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:16.320 of concern with anger about however you want. 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:16.480 To put it. 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.600 Yeah, there is some stuff which I think preps we 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:22.240 We just need to understand what it means, I guess, 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:25.200 and maybe we could start there and a coup. You've 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:29.920 done a lot with stingrays or cell phone sight simulators, 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:30.880 with lots of names for them. 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:32.000 Yeah, definitely. 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:35.520 So I've been for the last couple of years working 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:37.960 on a project called ray Hunter, which is a open 0:05:38.000 --> 0:05:44.280 source project to detect cell sized matters or stingrays or mccatchers, 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:45.359 whatever you want to call them. 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:47.320 I will probably use these terms interchangeably. 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:50.920 And in short, the way it works is it's a 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:53.520 little piece of software that sits on a mobile hotspot, 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:55.159 one of those little things that you buy to get 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.840 like Wi Fi in various places from a cellular connection, 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:02.800 and looks at the traffic between the hotspot and the 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:06.159 towers that it's connected to, specifically the control traffic, not 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.640 what you're doing, but what the control traffic is, how 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:10.880 it's connecting to the towers. 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.120 It looks for a number of suspicious things, signatures. 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:16.479 That we've written of what we think are indicative of 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:20.160 MC catcher activity. So we've been running this for a year. 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:22.520 There's several hundred of these. 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:24.800 Around the US, if not a couple of thousand, but 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:26.000 we don't have exact numbers. 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:28.080 There's a bunch of these all over the US. We 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:30.520 had a bunch of Minneapolis. People have been running them 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:32.200 in Chicago, in LA when that was going on. 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:33.919 People have been running them all over the country. 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:38.320 Yeah, and we have found some evidence of mpcy catchers, 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:41.880 but a lot less than we expected, or a lot 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:43.239 less than many people expected. 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.280 I actually didn't expect to find many. 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:50.320 And specifically, we have not found any evidence of MC 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:52.520 catchers being used at protests. 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:54.960 And I just stop here for a second to explain 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:56.800 what a sting ray or mccatcher is. 0:06:56.880 --> 0:07:02.039 Yeah, this is a fake cell tower essentially that tricks 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:05.679 your phone into connecting to it so that your phone 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:10.400 will identify itself to the MC catcher. These are used 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:13.360 for the primary reason these are used for is to 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:16.440 track down a specific person. So like what we see 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:21.600 in court documents is that these are used to verify 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:25.320 that somebody is home before a police rate happens. Right, 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:27.920 This is what the vast majority of use for these is. 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:31.040 That is one use. The other potential use, and the 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:33.960 one we're actually more concerned about, is that these could 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:37.600 be used to identify who is in a specific area. 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:40.640 You can set one of these up outside, let's say, 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:43.880 outside of a mosque or outside of a protest an 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:48.920 anarchist meeting or a anti fascist meeting is regularly happening, right, 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:51.560 and identify the people who are in that meeting by 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:53.720 getting those unique IDs and then going to the phone 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:57.480 company and saying, give us the subscriber information for these people. 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:02.120 And that is a farm concerning use, and we are 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.440 not seeing it so far with ray Hunter being used 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:08.240 for that. What we're seeing is uses that seem to 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.840 be more in line with the sort of manhunt or 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.880 like verifying that somebody is home style of operation, which 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.160 is also what we're seeing in core documents. 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:23.119 Interesting, Yeah, it doesn't mean that they government cannot find 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:27.920 out that you were at a place or at a protest, right, 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:30.680 it just means that they're not using this mechanism of 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:31.080 doing that. 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.800 Yeah, that's that's exactly right. So people have asked us, 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:35.960 what are what our. 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:37.760 Theories are for about why we're not seeing these a 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:39.920 protest because for a lot of for a long time, 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:42.600 there were a lot of activists that were pretty convinced 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.080 that these were showing up at every protest, right, or 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:48.240 that maybe like you know, to use the old there 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:50.559 was the old co Intel pro language was like the 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:54.240 architects of co Intel Pro wanted activists to feel like 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:58.040 there was a cop behind every bush and inside every mailbox, right, 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.199 And that was really the impression that a lot of 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:03.960 activists had about mccatchers, right, that they were in every 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:05.880 cop card, that they were everywhere, that they were just 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:09.040 constantly being used. And it seems like that's not the case. 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:12.000 And I think there's a couple reasons why. One is 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.360 that they're expensive. It costs about a million dollars for 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:18.640 an mccatcher contract. So these are actually like fairly rare, 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:22.280 and they're hard to operate. They require a lot of 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:26.480 technical knowledge, they require a lot of understanding cops are idiots, 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.800 they don't want to actually go do all this work 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:32.520 if it's not necessary, right, and it's a lot more 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:37.559 expensive then using one of the many other surveillance technologies 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:41.960 they have flock facial recognition, things like pen Link, which 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:44.720 we can talk about in a little bit, but other 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:49.040 databases of location because our phone advertisements on our phones 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.240 are constantly giving up our location, right, and there's a 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:54.240 whole surveillance industry around that selling. 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:55.880 That data to police. Also. 0:09:56.240 --> 0:09:59.440 The other big issue is that there was a legal 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:03.000 decision in twenty twenty, twenty nineteen. 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:06.280 I'm gonna mess this up. Fact checkers will. 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:08.480 Need to get on this in twenty nineteen called Carboner 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:12.240 versus USA, and the Supreme Court in that decision decided 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:16.640 that to access historical cell site location information, so this 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:21.040 is where people were located based on what cell towers 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:24.120 they're connected to, that police would need a warrant for 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:24.960 that information. 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.640 And it seems like at that time a. 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:32.960 Lot of law enforcement agencies decided that that also extended 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:35.400 to stingrays, whereas previously. 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.000 They had not been needing to get a warrant to 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:38.040 use their stingrays. 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:40.440 It seems like a lot of them thought, oh, Okay, 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:44.120 this seems like it probably also applies to stingrays. Therefore, 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:47.439 any case using stingrays without a warrant will get thrown out. 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:49.319 Therefore, we're going to need to get a warrant to 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:49.920 use this thing. 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:54.080 And it turns out having to get a warrant was 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:57.840 too high of a bar for most police agencies and 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:00.560 made them not want to use this technology, you unless 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:02.600 they absolutely had to and thought they. 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:03.760 Could get a warrant for it. 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.160 But there's a lot of other things they don't have 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.120 to get a warrant for, so we think my theory 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:13.880 is that they are using these other technologies that are 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:16.640 easier to use, cheaper to use, don't have to get 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.040 a warrant, and saving the sting rays only for when 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:21.360 they are sure they can get a warrant and when 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.439 they cost and complexity is justified. 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:25.640 Yeah, that makes sense. 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.680 It's the twenty eighteen June twenty second, twenty eighteen, that 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:29.960 supreme cool case. 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:33.199 Thank you real fun fact checking here on ICHH. 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:36.360 Yep, that's what we do. Let's talk about PenLink and 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:41.120 like other location data. I did hear recently that it's 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:46.600 possible that Iran had used commercially available location data to 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:49.760 target some of its strikes on US troops in the 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:51.400 Middle East, which is wild to consider. 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.920 I had not heard that, but it's not surprising and 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:59.800 it is absolutely wild, right. So yeah, So PenLink is 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.400 a company that actually previously had sold a lot of 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.960 software to help out with mccatchers. So interestingly they have 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:09.880 now pivoted to different types of surveillance. So they a 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.119 few years ago acquired this company, is Raeli company called Cobwebs. 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:17.600 Cobwebs makes a lot of different software. There's actually just 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:20.760 recently a fantastic report about all of the software in 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:23.760 that was acquired by PenLink. In this sale, there were 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:27.000 links to a couple of spyware manufacturers. Anyway, there was 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:30.200 a report on citizen Lab that's excellent. I highly recommend it. 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.640 But the short of it is that PenLink has acquired 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:35.840 two of their main products, one of which is called 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:39.840 Tangles and the other one is called Weblock. Tangles is 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:46.800 a social media surveillance tool that allows investigators to scrape 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:55.000 social media for specific keywords and make links between different 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:59.400 people different organizations, say like anybody who has interacted with 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.400 the Jean Brown gun Club or anybody who has interacted 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:06.800 with the socialist ra or anybody who has mentioned the 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:09.880 words Antifa. Right, you can go build a dossier on 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.760 that person, build a dossier on who their friends are, 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.679 what they're talking about, scrape specific groups, any sort of 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:19.240 left leaning group. Right, they can build a dossier on 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:21.040 that who all the people are, who their friends are. 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.439 And then they have this tool called Weblock. And what 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:29.400 Weblock does is it is a near real time database 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:34.280 of the locations of millions of phones worldwide. And so 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:40.400 how it works is police can circle a specific area 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:43.720 on a map and it will show information about all 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:45.960 of the phones that they know. 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:47.959 You know, that we're in that. 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.080 Area in some sort of timeframe, and I think that 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:52.760 the data gets updated every twenty four hours, so you're 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:55.280 going to have about a twenty four hour delay in 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.240 that data piece. So you circle an area just like 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.720 with your finger, and you're going to see who was there, 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.200 you know, as of twenty four hours ago and back 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:06.000 to so you know, whatever time brame you said. You 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:08.800 can then select any one of those phones that were 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:12.880 in that area and see information about that person, which 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:19.360 is mostly advertising demographic information, like what what sort of age. 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:20.280 Racket that person's in? 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:23.760 What their interests and hobbies are, whether they have kids, 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:27.120 whether they're a parent, what their nationality is. 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:28.000 Et cetera, et cetera. 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:32.160 But you can also see a historical map of where 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.040 that person or where that device. We should say, yeah, 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.840 has been right, And so you can see where they 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:40.960 spend their days, which is probably their work or something 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.320 like that. Where they spend their nights, which is probably 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:45.720 their house. You know, where they spend sort of their 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.840 afternoons or evenings, maybe a third space, maybe a lover's house, 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:51.360 something like that. Right, But you can see everywhere they've gone. 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.960 You can see if they were at a specific protest, 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:56.240 you could see everybody who was at a specific protest. 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:58.280 You could do a lot of different things with that. 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:02.760 And we think that they can that data from advertising networks. 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:05.120 We know they get it from apps on your phone, 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:10.360 and basically those apps are sending information to advertising networks 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:16.280 which is then sold or scraped by PenLink to add 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:19.200 to their database for this app. And all of this 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:22.280 is then sold to law enforcement. So law enforcement can 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:22.680 get this. 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:24.920 Information and none of it. 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:28.080 Requires a warrant. Currently, law enforcement does not think they 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.400 need a warrant to acquire this data and judges have 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:32.480 upheld that so far. 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.400 Yeah, so you're saying when you download an app and 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.400 you give it location permissions, that this is aggregated and 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:41.160 then sold to third party. 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:44.040 Not every app, but yeah, a lot of apps, like 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.120 most of them. We've been really strongly encouraging people to 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:51.600 not give apps location permissions unless there's a very good 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.480 reason why that app should have location permissions. Right, Like, 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:58.040 on my phone, the only app that has location permissions 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:00.920 is my maps app and my weather app, and that's 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:05.040 because I know those apps don't have advertising SDKs in them. 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.040 But if you wanted to, if you are extra paranoid, 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:09.320 like if I was heading throughto something, I mean, if 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.080 I was setting to something that I didn't want people 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:14.160 to know I was there, I would turn my phone 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:17.520 off or at least put it on airplane mode, right. Yeah, 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:19.920 you know, short of that, you could turn off location 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.400 services entirely for your phone, right and give no app 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:24.040 your location. 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:28.360 But yeah, it's our phones are snitches, man, Our phones 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:28.960 are snitches. 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.000 Yeah, that is the big take home, is the big 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.760 snitch you carry around in your pocket take everywhere with you. 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:42.080 Talking of snitches, I can't think of a way to 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:43.200 fucking pivot then. 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:46.400 To add down products and services. Here's something so you 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:47.960 can buy the snitch on you. 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:49.400 Yeah, hey, buy these things. 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:52.080 They'll give away information data, send it to his rainy 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:53.400 company will send it back to the cops. 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:08.600 All right, we are back. I hope you boil something nice. 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.520 I want to talk about community counter surveillance because it 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:17.399 is interesting. It gives people something they can understand a 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.000 little more about the web of surveillance around them, right, 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:22.800 they can they could feel a little bit more informed. 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:26.119 So let's let's talk about it. Maybe kind of panic 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:28.320 if you want to kick off. You've been involved in 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:30.000 some of these devices. I don't know how you want 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:31.600 to put it behind some of them. 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:32.520 Yeah, certainly. 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:35.960 I came up with the idea for what people are 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.960 now calling we spy. It actually was initially called OUI spy. 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:44.320 It was organizational unique identifier, which is the first six 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:46.720 characters of a Mac address. 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.240 But it's art. You know, it's going to be pronounced 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:52.560 however people want it. It has dual meanings we spy. 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:56.080 But this this actually kind of was born from the 0:17:56.119 --> 0:18:00.879 war driving community, which is old school driving around trying 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:05.320 to find devices, just seeing what's out there, and so Essentially, 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:09.199 you have all these devices that are transmitting around you, 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:13.720 and it's totally fine and totally legal to just receive passively. 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:19.280 And so things like Wiggle or Kismet you can use 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:21.119 on Linux to just drive around and just kind of 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:24.120 see what devices are in your area. And through this, 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.800 I came up with a device that was based on 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.719 remote ID stuff prior to we spy that just detects 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:35.040 drones and then transmits it over mesh tastic, or it 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.080 detects a device and transmits it over mesh Tastic. And 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:39.800 then I was like, it'd be really cool to have 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:43.159 a device that if you have a device that you 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.159 want to know when comes around you, it'll just beep. 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.280 And so I just took a micro controller and drew 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:53.240 out the design for this thing to connect to a 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:57.200 beeper and essentially made the firmwares that do a few 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:00.440 different things. For instance, if you wanted to know when 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:02.679 a Tesla drove by or something, you could put in 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.639 the OUI for that or the MAC address for a 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.760 specific device, and you can just tell you get alerts 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:10.199 when devices are around you. 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.399 Essentially, so that's where all that began. 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.200 Yeah, to explain how like this might help someone. 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:18.679 Let's say, like you just wanted to get an idea 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.280 right of the surveillance infrastructure that exist that you encountered 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:23.320 in your daily life. 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:26.080 You haven't been going to city council meetings. You don't 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:26.840 know what that shit is. 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:30.240 Your local newspaper is dead now, because everyone's local newspaper 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:32.240 is dead now, right, so there's no reporting on it, 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.680 Like if they wanted to get one of these devices, 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.280 cruise around town and work out, like when they were 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:39.120 being spied on, what kind of. 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:41.760 Abilities would it give them? 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.760 Certainly, so there's drawn detection on this device, so you 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:47.399 can have it alert when drowns are near, or have 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.399 it map via remote ID. But the biggest one I 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:53.480 think that has been the most important one is the 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:58.800 flock camera detection. There's a ton of other cameras then Flock, 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.399 but this is the important one lately. So a lot 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:04.720 of people are out on you know, out doing war 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:09.719 driving and doing real time research and contributing to you know, 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:14.320 adding to this database of flockcams signatures essentially, and it's 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:16.879 either Wi Fi or Bluetooth, and some of them are 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:20.760 over cellular too, But essentially this I made a firmware 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.480 called flock you when you drive around, it just war 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:24.680 drives flockcams. 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:30.080 And a good friend of mine did some recent research. 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:33.000 And found out that if you put the micro controller 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:36.199 into Wi Fi promiscuous mode, it'll detect more flockcams. So 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:39.720 that firmware just came out a couple of days ago, 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:41.639 so constantly being added to. 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:43.280 So if anyone has. 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:47.480 You know, mac addresses OUIs, please contribute. It takes a 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:50.760 village to raise a surveillance detection kit. 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:57.560 Yeah, it allows people to then, yet let the crowds 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.320 or do you do community? It's mapping of this stuff 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:04.320 right to give people and like I know, I have 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:08.040 friends who've reported on gunshot detection software, Like it won't 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.000 surprise people to find out which communities are the most 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:14.159 surveiled and which communities are the least survailed. Right, but 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:18.280 it nonetheless it is important, Like that's an important function 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:22.280 in making that obvious to people. Likewise, drones, people might 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:24.800 be thinking, why why would I want to look for drones? 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:27.639 Drones are super cool. I just fly them around to 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.080 see the birds. Like you can explain that drones might 0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:33.120 also play a role in surveillance. 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:38.080 Yeah, absolutely, I'm an avid drone flyer. So I developed 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:41.520 this just for funzis, you know, and made a drone detector, 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:44.919 and I quickly realized that the most frequent flyers are 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:49.120 the PD unfortunately, you know, surveiling the area. So it's 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:52.240 really interesting to see and to see that they're flying. 0:21:52.359 --> 0:21:54.560 You know, more regularly than any hobbyist. 0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:55.880 Yeah. 0:21:55.960 --> 0:21:58.640 Yeah, this has become a big part of flak coups. 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:00.159 You used to have to send up a helicopter to 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:02.119 look at something from above, right, and they still do 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:04.400 all the time, and hear that ship over my house 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:06.919 every day. But they can also do it with it 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:09.920 right now for much less money. But do you want 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:12.920 to explain ray Hunter a little bit for people who 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:15.520 are like suddenly shocked by all of this and they 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:17.960 want to turn the car into a beeping machine. 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:21.320 Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure I will do that. I 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:21.600 want to. 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:24.720 I want to extol the virtues of we buy for 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:27.120 for a little bit before that, though, Yeah, I mean 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:28.960 this is this is how I linked up with Kernel 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:32.520 Panics because I thought this was such a really amazing project, 0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:36.680 and I think that it's it serves a couple of purposes, right, 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:40.760 I think that there's there's one very practical purpose of 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:44.359 like this can help you map out the surveillance in 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:46.800 your town, right, you can. You can export the data 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:50.960 from this and upload it directly to block mapper, right, 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:53.040 or there's some other site that will help you, like 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:56.000 plotter route from point A to point B avoiding flock camerage, 0:22:56.040 --> 0:23:00.159 which I think is really cool. It also just helps 0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:05.600 sensitize you to how many flock cameras are in your town. 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:09.880 Like people like they they they are unobtrusive to a degree, right, 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:13.840 Like they are easy, easy visual noise to just ignore. Yeah, right, 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:17.600 but when you're like I was surprised by how much 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:19.520 it went off in my town, and then I look 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:22.320 up and I'm like, oh yeah, flog cameras, flock camera okay, right, 0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:26.359 And it got me used to like spotting those cameras around, right, 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:29.119 And I think that it's a really it's a really 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:34.480 useful piece of propaganda work essentially in that in that 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:36.959 way to get people used to spotting these, to get 0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:39.240 people thinking about, well, where are these how many of 0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:40.400 these are there in my town? 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:41.000 Right? 0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:42.960 Like people are like, well, you could just go look 0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:44.600 for them, yeah, but people don't. 0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:47.800 Right, You've got the ship to do yeah, like, yeah, exactly. 0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:50.840 But if I hear that from the from their you know, 0:23:51.359 --> 0:23:55.960 really loud buzzer, right, I know that something is going on, right, 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:58.520 it's more of a it's a little more jarring, and 0:23:58.560 --> 0:23:59.680 it's it's good in that way. 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:00.919 Yeah, I see it. 0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:03.760 It's like a like a little imagine a little parrots 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:04.479 at your shoulder. 0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:06.439 And when you'll be spied on, You'll being spied on. 0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:08.520 You'll being spied on just constantly. 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:11.399 Yeah, yeah, and you realize the extent to which that 0:24:11.560 --> 0:24:12.000 is happening. 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:14.560 Surveillance coal mine canary essentially, and. 0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:17.400 Yeah it canary is better better enalogy. 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:21.080 Kind of like lying cat, but surveillance cat, right yeah. 0:24:21.720 --> 0:24:23.960 Yeah, instead of every time you're lying and says that, 0:24:24.000 --> 0:24:26.240 it just says surveillance every time somebody's spying on you. 0:24:26.359 --> 0:24:27.760 Yeah. 0:24:27.880 --> 0:24:30.200 The other thing that I think is is cool. 0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:33.920 I know U I spy and and raiment And why 0:24:33.960 --> 0:24:36.479 I think these are good projects is it gives a 0:24:36.480 --> 0:24:39.720 lot of people something to do, right. Fascism can really 0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:43.320 make people feel helpless, and this overarching surveillance can really 0:24:43.320 --> 0:24:46.399 make people feel helpless, and it's really easy for people 0:24:46.440 --> 0:24:51.159 to fall into privacy, nihilism, and security nihilism, right, and 0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:53.560 just be like, well, I'm gonna be watched constantly. 0:24:53.640 --> 0:24:56.800 There's nothing i can do, so, you know, spirit why 0:24:56.840 --> 0:25:00.960 do anything? Right? And this gives people something to do. 0:25:01.119 --> 0:25:03.879 Right, there's a thing you can and Americans love buying 0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:06.560 a thing, right, we love a gadget, and so there's 0:25:06.600 --> 0:25:07.880 a thing you can go. 0:25:08.240 --> 0:25:10.679 Buy or build or set up or whatever. 0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:14.800 Right, and go start pushing back, even just a little 0:25:14.840 --> 0:25:17.480 by little on the surveillance around you. 0:25:17.800 --> 0:25:17.960 Right. 0:25:18.040 --> 0:25:22.359 And then once you start doing one thing, it lowers 0:25:22.400 --> 0:25:23.440 the energy of activation. 0:25:23.520 --> 0:25:25.399 It becomes easy to do other things. 0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:25.600 Right. 0:25:25.640 --> 0:25:28.760 It becomes easier to go to your city council and 0:25:28.880 --> 0:25:32.440 demand that they rip these cameras out. It becomes easier 0:25:32.480 --> 0:25:35.800 to find and organize with other people in your community. Right, 0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:39.359 it becomes easier to start to you know, think about 0:25:39.440 --> 0:25:42.080 direct action, you know, in that sense, it becomes a 0:25:42.080 --> 0:25:44.919 bit of like propaganda bdeed, Right, Like we're giving people 0:25:45.400 --> 0:25:49.880 the tool to get off their couch and start to 0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:52.280 push back and start to fight back and start to 0:25:52.280 --> 0:25:53.480 become a part of a community. 0:25:53.560 --> 0:25:53.679 Right. 0:25:53.680 --> 0:25:56.600 So I think it's really important for that with ray Hunters. 0:25:56.640 --> 0:25:58.560 So I already kind of described how it works, but 0:25:58.960 --> 0:26:01.120 we had. We had a few goals with ray Hunter. 0:26:01.400 --> 0:26:06.000 One was to figure out, you know, how often cell 0:26:06.080 --> 0:26:09.440 size simulators were being used in the US and around 0:26:09.480 --> 0:26:09.760 the world. 0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:11.720 But but you know, I live I live here, so 0:26:11.880 --> 0:26:14.960 this is my main focus, but specifically how often. 0:26:14.800 --> 0:26:17.840 They're being used to spy on protesters, right, because we 0:26:17.840 --> 0:26:20.280 were getting this idea that a lot of activists thought 0:26:20.280 --> 0:26:22.840 that they were everywhere, right, and I thought that other 0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:26.480 things were a much bigger threat, right, like, I'm there 0:26:26.480 --> 0:26:29.320 are there are things that I'm more concerned about. But also, 0:26:29.680 --> 0:26:33.320 cel size simulators, stingrays are pretty mysterious, right, Like, we 0:26:33.400 --> 0:26:36.120 don't we know the broad strokes of how they work, 0:26:36.200 --> 0:26:39.200 but we don't know the technical details of what exploits 0:26:39.240 --> 0:26:42.720 they are using to you know, essentially trick people's phones 0:26:42.720 --> 0:26:45.760 into connecting to them. Right, So this was a this 0:26:45.920 --> 0:26:49.800 was a chance to try to get some ground truth information. 0:26:49.320 --> 0:26:50.440 About that as well. 0:26:50.600 --> 0:26:54.080 Yeah, and we have succeeded in that we have a 0:26:54.080 --> 0:26:57.439 bunch of recordings from around the US of things that 0:26:57.480 --> 0:27:02.240 we think are quite likely to be side stimiliators actively 0:27:02.280 --> 0:27:05.159 in use by law enforcement, and we've bout some ideas 0:27:05.200 --> 0:27:09.040 about how they're working and what they're doing, and The 0:27:09.080 --> 0:27:11.719 other goal is that we wanted to try to like 0:27:12.080 --> 0:27:15.280 calm down some of the fear and uncertainty and doubt 0:27:15.400 --> 0:27:18.679 among activists about whether this was a threat model that 0:27:18.720 --> 0:27:21.280 they need to worry about and give people more accurate 0:27:21.320 --> 0:27:22.000 threat models. 0:27:22.080 --> 0:27:22.240 Right. 0:27:22.440 --> 0:27:25.480 Yeah, and like also give people, you know, a modicum 0:27:25.480 --> 0:27:25.959 of comfort. 0:27:26.080 --> 0:27:26.240 Right. 0:27:26.760 --> 0:27:29.080 This is not a self defense device, right, this is 0:27:29.160 --> 0:27:30.840 actually like at the end of the day, this is 0:27:30.880 --> 0:27:34.320 a data collect like not data collection. We're not collecting 0:27:34.320 --> 0:27:37.920 your data, but this is this is a research project. 0:27:38.600 --> 0:27:41.160 We're collecting the data about like how often do we 0:27:41.200 --> 0:27:42.600 think that we're actually seeing these? 0:27:42.680 --> 0:27:42.840 Right? 0:27:43.359 --> 0:27:45.560 But it gives people a modicum of comfort too, Right, 0:27:45.640 --> 0:27:48.399 because you have this, you have Ryhunter with you, Right, 0:27:48.440 --> 0:27:50.640 and if it doesn't go off, you're like, every time 0:27:50.680 --> 0:27:53.159 it doesn't go off, you're like, Okay, you know, maybe 0:27:53.200 --> 0:27:53.680 this is. 0:27:53.600 --> 0:27:55.720 Not actually a threat model that I need to worry 0:27:55.720 --> 0:27:56.320 so much about. 0:27:56.440 --> 0:27:58.320 Right, And then I hope you'll think, well, what do 0:27:58.359 --> 0:28:01.680 I need to worry about? Oh, things like penling. Probably 0:28:01.720 --> 0:28:04.960 things like celebrate and the cops arresting me and making 0:28:05.040 --> 0:28:07.440 a copy of all the data on my phone. Yeah, right, 0:28:07.680 --> 0:28:10.719 probably other you know, facial recognition and other things like that, 0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:14.040 which I think are the things that you should be thinking. 0:28:13.720 --> 0:28:14.760 About and worrying about. 0:28:15.119 --> 0:28:17.080 Yeah, that's been the point of bran Hunter, and I 0:28:17.080 --> 0:28:18.840 think it's been successful in that sense. 0:28:19.119 --> 0:28:22.160 Right. But yeah, we really, I mean, we want we want. 0:28:21.960 --> 0:28:24.240 More people to install this, right, especially the next time 0:28:24.320 --> 0:28:28.159 Ice lays siege to a city, right, we want to 0:28:28.160 --> 0:28:30.360 have we want to have some there. You know, late 0:28:30.440 --> 0:28:33.240 in the game to Minneapolis, a ground game got set 0:28:33.280 --> 0:28:35.200 up where we then had like a couple hundred of 0:28:35.240 --> 0:28:36.879 these on the ground of Minneapolis, and we. 0:28:36.880 --> 0:28:39.400 Didn't find We did not find. 0:28:39.160 --> 0:28:42.880 Anything in Minneapolis that we felt was conclusive evidence of 0:28:42.920 --> 0:28:46.160 an MC catcher. Well, Ice was there laying siege to 0:28:46.240 --> 0:28:48.840 the city. Hopefully there is no next time they lay 0:28:48.880 --> 0:28:49.720 siege to a city. 0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:51.240 Yeah, hopefully that doesn't happen again. 0:28:51.400 --> 0:28:54.200 But if that does happen again, hopefully we can get 0:28:54.360 --> 0:28:55.920 you know, sort of a ground game set up very 0:28:55.960 --> 0:28:58.920 quickly to try to determine if they're using this form 0:28:58.920 --> 0:28:59.800 of surveillance or not. 0:29:00.480 --> 0:29:03.120 So talking of surveillance, here are a couple of products 0:29:03.120 --> 0:29:06.360 and services. If you buy them that will probably result 0:29:06.400 --> 0:29:08.680 in your data being collected, which will in turn be 0:29:08.760 --> 0:29:10.600 sole perhaps to and it's really a company who will 0:29:10.640 --> 0:29:11.600 say to the cops. 0:29:11.520 --> 0:29:23.760 Sambo would never sell my data. 0:29:25.200 --> 0:29:27.600 All right, we are back. 0:29:27.920 --> 0:29:29.880 I think that's really good explanation of the value of 0:29:29.880 --> 0:29:32.080 these devices. The more you know, the more you know. 0:29:32.640 --> 0:29:34.400 And this is a struggle that I have on a 0:29:34.480 --> 0:29:36.920 daily basis at the moment. There are so many things 0:29:36.920 --> 0:29:40.240 to be angry and scared about right now. We don't 0:29:40.280 --> 0:29:42.640 need to invent shit that we shouldn't be angry and 0:29:42.680 --> 0:29:47.320 scared about. We need to focus on the things that 0:29:47.400 --> 0:29:50.600 are a real threat. And there are things in this 0:29:50.880 --> 0:29:53.520 landscape which are a real threat. And so I think 0:29:53.600 --> 0:29:56.800 it helps people to have that. Like it's one thing 0:29:56.920 --> 0:30:00.479 to go on flog map or whatever and Okay, well 0:30:00.520 --> 0:30:02.080 they're there and there and there. It's another one to 0:30:02.120 --> 0:30:05.080 be like, well, shit, in my going out to get 0:30:05.080 --> 0:30:09.360 a pizza with my friends, I was spied upon five times, 0:30:09.600 --> 0:30:11.520 and I think that that is very valuable. At the 0:30:11.560 --> 0:30:15.160 same time, nobody tried to sell sites, spoof and get 0:30:15.160 --> 0:30:16.080 my information that way. 0:30:16.360 --> 0:30:17.480 I think that's very important. 0:30:18.160 --> 0:30:21.480 Let's talk a little bit about like how people can organize. 0:30:21.720 --> 0:30:23.960 San Diego has done a spectacular job of signing a 0:30:24.000 --> 0:30:27.000 contract that it can't stop paying for surveillance cameras. So 0:30:27.080 --> 0:30:30.360 even if we stop using them tomorrow, we would keep 0:30:30.640 --> 0:30:34.640 sending our taxpayer money to a spying company, which is great. 0:30:34.640 --> 0:30:37.160 Because our city is and run by the sea, it 0:30:37.200 --> 0:30:40.040 will continue to be a shit show forever apparently, But like, 0:30:40.480 --> 0:30:43.959 let's assume that other people have slightly more competent local government. 0:30:44.000 --> 0:30:47.080 What an amazing contract. I can't believe that they said. 0:30:46.840 --> 0:30:49.760 That California politics is a shit show, but San Diego 0:30:49.840 --> 0:30:50.680 is a fucking joke. 0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:52.160 Many examples of this. 0:30:52.400 --> 0:30:55.080 Listen, my city council member just got it indicted buy 0:30:55.080 --> 0:30:58.880 the FBI on corruption charges. So in the year of 0:30:58.880 --> 0:31:01.320 our Lord twenty twenty five, if you got indicted by 0:31:01.360 --> 0:31:03.560 the FBI, So like, how stupid do you have to know? 0:31:03.680 --> 0:31:06.880 Well, so I have no legs to stand on. But 0:31:06.960 --> 0:31:09.040 also any California so it all tracks. 0:31:08.800 --> 0:31:12.120 Yeah, yeah, yeah, the greatest great times on the left coast. 0:31:13.240 --> 0:31:16.560 Let's talk about how people have organized their communities against surveillance, 0:31:16.640 --> 0:31:19.480 Like just to like paint a picture for folks here, right, 0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:22.680 Like the flock camera does not know if you're doing 0:31:22.720 --> 0:31:27.120 a crime. The flock camera doesn't know if you came 0:31:27.200 --> 0:31:31.480 from another state to obtain reproductive healthcare. The flock camera 0:31:31.640 --> 0:31:36.480 doesn't know if you're a migrant parent popping out to 0:31:36.520 --> 0:31:39.760 get formula for your little baby. It captures all of 0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:42.760 that shit, right, Like, there's a broad range of people 0:31:42.800 --> 0:31:47.000 in this country who are fucking disgusted at that, people 0:31:47.040 --> 0:31:49.520 who we might not be used to organizing with. But 0:31:49.560 --> 0:31:52.240 perhaps you guys could like explain the how or if 0:31:52.280 --> 0:31:56.280 you're aware of instances where people have organized against states avalience, 0:31:56.320 --> 0:31:57.560 it would be cool to hear about that. 0:31:58.440 --> 0:31:58.720 Yeah. 0:31:58.840 --> 0:32:03.120 I recently did talk here in Asheville, North Carolina, at 0:32:03.160 --> 0:32:06.360 an event called nerd Nite, and nerd Night is essentially 0:32:06.840 --> 0:32:08.840 it's a way to go to a bar without just 0:32:08.880 --> 0:32:12.000 a bunch of drivel. You know, you go and then 0:32:12.040 --> 0:32:16.240 somebody does three talks fifteen minutes each, And so the 0:32:16.600 --> 0:32:18.640 host was kind enough to give me a twenty five 0:32:18.720 --> 0:32:22.920 minute slot at the end to talk about flock cameras 0:32:22.920 --> 0:32:25.800 in our city here, and it just so happened to 0:32:25.800 --> 0:32:28.640 be happening before they tried to vote on a real 0:32:28.680 --> 0:32:34.640 time intelligence center that centralized flock ax on and all 0:32:34.640 --> 0:32:38.520 of our drone data into one just like wall of surveillance. 0:32:37.960 --> 0:32:39.040 For the city. 0:32:39.280 --> 0:32:43.360 And so I did this talk and a City council 0:32:43.440 --> 0:32:47.040 member showed up our toolest City council member Kim Roni, 0:32:47.480 --> 0:32:51.080 she showed up and dearing the questions at the end, 0:32:51.640 --> 0:32:54.000 I was unsure because on our portal here it's the 0:32:54.040 --> 0:32:56.880 APD says, you know, we don't share our data with 0:32:56.920 --> 0:32:59.800 outside agencies. And Kim Ronnie came up and confirmed that 0:33:00.280 --> 0:33:03.880 something like four thousand agencies have access to our data. Yeah, 0:33:03.920 --> 0:33:06.320 we don't share them, but they can request and we 0:33:06.400 --> 0:33:07.080 just hand it over. 0:33:07.160 --> 0:33:10.000 So yeah, that's that's one thing that we learned at 0:33:10.000 --> 0:33:10.440 that time. 0:33:10.520 --> 0:33:14.800 So this this prompted a big push that was kind 0:33:14.840 --> 0:33:17.560 of happening for city council. So a lot of folks 0:33:17.640 --> 0:33:20.400 that came to that talk came to City council and 0:33:20.440 --> 0:33:22.280 I'm telling you, like, it's folks all over the board. 0:33:22.320 --> 0:33:25.360 I mean, this is Appalachia here, nobody, nobody wants to 0:33:25.400 --> 0:33:27.280 be surveilled in these hollers, you know. 0:33:27.920 --> 0:33:30.480 Yeah, this is one of those areas where we can 0:33:30.560 --> 0:33:35.000 build really broad coalitions, like of people who we might 0:33:35.040 --> 0:33:38.040 not agree on with on everything, like this is a 0:33:38.080 --> 0:33:41.120 threat to anyone who wants to do almost anything apart 0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:42.600 from them, I guess just go shopping. 0:33:42.840 --> 0:33:46.360 One interesting point is that over one hundred people showed 0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:47.320 up to city council. 0:33:47.400 --> 0:33:49.200 I'm you know, this is this is new to me. 0:33:49.280 --> 0:33:51.320 I'm working on getting out there a little bit, and 0:33:51.640 --> 0:33:55.080 I seded my time to another a speaker. But over 0:33:55.080 --> 0:33:56.880 one hundred people showed up and then they pulled it 0:33:56.880 --> 0:33:59.440 from the vote. They pulled it from the agenda, so 0:34:00.040 --> 0:34:02.520 lots of folks left, but then some folks stepped around 0:34:02.560 --> 0:34:05.520 for general comment and still got it out there. But 0:34:05.760 --> 0:34:08.360 you know, we'll see what happens down the line. 0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:10.120 They love to do that tactic. 0:34:10.160 --> 0:34:11.840 They did the same thing in Oakland when it was 0:34:11.920 --> 0:34:13.919 up for When it was up on the agenda, they said, 0:34:14.200 --> 0:34:15.920 a ton of people shout up to discuss it, and 0:34:15.920 --> 0:34:18.120 then they were like, oops, no, never mind, we're gonna 0:34:18.160 --> 0:34:21.239 pull that from the agenda today. Yeah, it's such a 0:34:21.280 --> 0:34:24.120 shitty tactic. But no, I mean at uff, we've seen 0:34:24.560 --> 0:34:26.640 We've seen similar things all over the country. You know, 0:34:26.800 --> 0:34:31.200 a ton of different cities have dropped their flock contracts 0:34:32.000 --> 0:34:36.000 recently because of community pressure. Right, this doesn't happen in 0:34:36.040 --> 0:34:38.200 a vacuum. Your city council doesn't care, Right. 0:34:38.160 --> 0:34:41.360 They they want to score easy political wins. 0:34:41.480 --> 0:34:44.560 Right, flock sells them this as an easy political win, right, 0:34:44.680 --> 0:34:48.200 this they can stop carjackings, right, they can, They can 0:34:48.280 --> 0:34:51.640 find car thefts, they can, they can you know, do 0:34:51.719 --> 0:34:53.960 all these things that are popular. Nobody likes being carjacked, 0:34:53.960 --> 0:34:56.960 nobody likes having their car stolen. Right, But when people 0:34:57.000 --> 0:35:00.000 show up to city council and push back and fight 0:35:00.120 --> 0:35:04.120 against this, it makes it not an easy political win. Yeah, right, 0:35:04.200 --> 0:35:06.560 it makes it. It makes it actually politically a bit 0:35:06.600 --> 0:35:09.000 poisonous to push these technologies. 0:35:09.040 --> 0:35:09.880 And it should be. 0:35:10.080 --> 0:35:14.200 Yeah, we shouldn't be surveilled constantly just because we happen 0:35:14.719 --> 0:35:15.719 to be outside. 0:35:15.800 --> 0:35:17.520 And like, look, I would. 0:35:17.320 --> 0:35:19.960 Love to not have a car, right, but this is America, 0:35:20.360 --> 0:35:22.439 Like everybody drives all the time. 0:35:22.560 --> 0:35:25.600 That is that is the society we live in. Unfortunately. 0:35:25.840 --> 0:35:29.600 Yeah, and you shouldn't be you shouldn't be subject to 0:35:29.719 --> 0:35:34.160 surveillance just for participating in society. And and like you said, 0:35:34.160 --> 0:35:37.080 I think we can build very broad coalitions around this, right, 0:35:37.120 --> 0:35:40.600 and we can start to like, hey, you know, remember 0:35:40.600 --> 0:35:44.120 how you know how mad you were about flock, Like yeah, 0:35:44.200 --> 0:35:47.960 wait till you find out about these other surveillance technologies, right, Like, 0:35:48.200 --> 0:35:51.480 now let's talk about campaign finance and how how all 0:35:51.520 --> 0:35:55.319 these companies you don't like are financing politicians, right, Like, 0:35:55.400 --> 0:35:59.239 you can you can pull people to the left, and 0:35:59.280 --> 0:36:02.480 this is a good way to start interacting with those people. 0:36:02.600 --> 0:36:04.880 Yeah, even people on the right, even sort of our 0:36:04.960 --> 0:36:08.040 more you know, the more libertarian folks, they hate them to. 0:36:08.680 --> 0:36:11.239 A lot of them have gone full Nazi, but the 0:36:11.239 --> 0:36:15.080 ones that haven't gone full Nazi, right, like, should really 0:36:15.120 --> 0:36:16.480 care about this stuff. 0:36:16.200 --> 0:36:19.000 Right, and you can you know, this can be away 0:36:19.040 --> 0:36:19.879 in with them as well. 0:36:20.160 --> 0:36:22.520 Yeah, like everyone we can bring with us, we need 0:36:22.520 --> 0:36:25.759 to earn everyone else fuck them, Yeah, absolutely, But I 0:36:25.760 --> 0:36:29.200 think this is a really good area to organize because 0:36:29.239 --> 0:36:31.720 all of us stand to lose something. It's so fucking 0:36:31.840 --> 0:36:35.400 creepy when you realize the extent to which like someone 0:36:35.800 --> 0:36:39.080 is watching or could be watching. There's a million reasons 0:36:39.160 --> 0:36:40.279 why people could be mad at that. 0:36:40.960 --> 0:36:43.640 There's plenty of room for abuse, you know there too, 0:36:43.680 --> 0:36:46.919 and it's it's been documented, you know, a recent video 0:36:47.040 --> 0:36:49.480 with Ben Jordans. I mean you know, oh yeah, if 0:36:49.480 --> 0:36:52.920 you give people this kind of surveillance access, it's impossible 0:36:52.920 --> 0:36:55.640 to vet people on this level, you know. And if 0:36:55.719 --> 0:36:58.920 if you give people who got you know, God likes 0:36:58.920 --> 0:37:00.879 surveillance power, what are they going to end up doing. 0:37:00.920 --> 0:37:04.160 And there's been cases where they've shown that police officerships 0:37:04.160 --> 0:37:08.520 surveiled their ex partners and then consequently pulled that person over, 0:37:08.880 --> 0:37:10.239 which is just insane. 0:37:10.520 --> 0:37:13.600 Yeah, no, they've used this to stop people to surveial 0:37:13.719 --> 0:37:17.440 current partners ex partners. Like the idea that police would 0:37:17.440 --> 0:37:24.200 never abuse their power is completely absurd and anybody who. 0:37:23.840 --> 0:37:26.359 Is arguing that is not arguing in good faith, I think. 0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:27.360 Yeah. 0:37:27.400 --> 0:37:31.480 And yet like it is another the Dems are like necessarily, 0:37:31.680 --> 0:37:33.760 I mean they're not on the side of goods, especially 0:37:33.800 --> 0:37:36.520 in this area. But like it is a big blue 0:37:36.520 --> 0:37:39.560 state thing, Like don't think that because you live in California, 0:37:39.640 --> 0:37:43.000 this isn't happening, right, It is very much happening. 0:37:43.120 --> 0:37:45.799 Yeah, right right, Yes, I mean to talk about that 0:37:45.840 --> 0:37:48.960 real quick, right, Like we have I am blanking on 0:37:49.000 --> 0:37:50.960 the bill number, but we have a lot in California 0:37:51.000 --> 0:37:56.520 that prevents California police agencies from sharing data from FLOCK 0:37:56.640 --> 0:37:59.560 with from LISO played regions in general, with outside agencies 0:37:59.600 --> 0:38:02.919 and with and it still happens all the time. 0:38:03.000 --> 0:38:05.120 Yeah, pollice just willfully. 0:38:04.640 --> 0:38:07.239 Ignore this law, you know, I mean, like we see 0:38:07.760 --> 0:38:10.799 immigration or ICE support as the reason they put down 0:38:10.840 --> 0:38:13.399 for searches, even though that's illegal. And when they don't 0:38:13.440 --> 0:38:15.680 do that, we know that ICE. You know people and 0:38:15.800 --> 0:38:18.880 ICE have buddies in Califorated law enforcement. They text them, 0:38:18.920 --> 0:38:21.600 they say, hey, run this plate for me. Law enforcement 0:38:21.680 --> 0:38:25.000 texts runs the plate, puts the reason down as investigation 0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:29.040 or crime or you know, some other such nonsense. Yeah, 0:38:29.120 --> 0:38:31.920 and then and then you know, sends the information back 0:38:31.960 --> 0:38:32.360 to ICE. 0:38:32.480 --> 0:38:34.680 Right, it's we call that the good old boys system 0:38:34.719 --> 0:38:35.200 down here. 0:38:37.160 --> 0:38:39.840 Yeah, yeah, I've here too, And they've made a concerted 0:38:39.880 --> 0:38:42.640 effort to recruit people from local law enforcement all across 0:38:42.640 --> 0:38:44.920 the country. And this is part of why right like, 0:38:45.400 --> 0:38:47.919 it gives a work around SP fifty four. 0:38:48.040 --> 0:38:51.719 It's the California Values Act, which thank you, thank you, 0:38:51.719 --> 0:38:53.399 you are welcome. That is my shit. 0:38:53.719 --> 0:38:56.319 There has never been a prosecution under SP fifty four 0:38:56.320 --> 0:39:00.560 as far as I'm aware. This law exists largely to 0:39:00.600 --> 0:39:03.400 make the politicians who passed it feel good. There are 0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:06.400 some parts about transferring people who are in detention already, 0:39:06.880 --> 0:39:11.000 but like these, these systems give so many workarounds, right 0:39:11.200 --> 0:39:14.799 or like if the data belongs to the company and 0:39:14.880 --> 0:39:17.920 not to the city, or if it's stored on a 0:39:18.000 --> 0:39:23.000 service somewhere else. Like, all of these things provide potential workaround. 0:39:23.120 --> 0:39:28.520 So I don't think I guess that because your local 0:39:28.560 --> 0:39:32.200 city council member has tweeted about ice being bad, that 0:39:32.200 --> 0:39:35.200 that means that your flock cameras are not being used 0:39:35.200 --> 0:39:35.400 for that. 0:39:35.680 --> 0:39:37.319 It's very hard to ring fence this shit. 0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:38.160 Yeah. 0:39:38.200 --> 0:39:41.399 Absolutely, if people want to learn more about this, if 0:39:41.440 --> 0:39:44.799 they want to maybe get a ray hunter, they want 0:39:44.840 --> 0:39:47.680 to get a wee spy or a mesh detect, don't 0:39:47.719 --> 0:39:49.359 explain mesh de tech for people really quickly. 0:39:49.400 --> 0:39:50.359 We didn't touch on that one. 0:39:50.600 --> 0:39:53.920 Yeah, Mesh detect is essentially it's the first advice that 0:39:54.000 --> 0:39:57.080 I made, and its primarily function was to detect drawing 0:39:57.160 --> 0:40:00.919 remote idea. The FAA requires remote ide which is any 0:40:01.040 --> 0:40:04.160 drone over I believe it's five hundred grams has to 0:40:04.200 --> 0:40:09.000 transmit pilot location and drone location in real time, either 0:40:09.160 --> 0:40:13.319 via ble or Wi Fi, which is pretty whack for like, 0:40:14.000 --> 0:40:17.080 you know, amateur flyers that just want to fly around. 0:40:17.200 --> 0:40:20.000 But that being said, it's a great ocent tool. 0:40:20.080 --> 0:40:23.000 So I started with that, and essentially what this does 0:40:23.120 --> 0:40:26.759 is mesh detect. It takes that detection and sends it 0:40:26.800 --> 0:40:31.200 over mesh tastic Laura Networks, So you can set up 0:40:31.200 --> 0:40:34.040 a for instance, set up a node way out somewhere 0:40:34.400 --> 0:40:36.000 and then you can have it sends you a message 0:40:36.040 --> 0:40:38.600 down the line when a drone comes by over mesh tastic, 0:40:38.800 --> 0:40:41.440 or you can set it up somewhere and have it 0:40:41.560 --> 0:40:45.240 say okay, there's a body cam down here, or whatever device, 0:40:45.280 --> 0:40:47.600 a Tesla, anything, you know. 0:40:47.640 --> 0:40:48.920 A lot of devices. 0:40:48.520 --> 0:40:53.240 Randomize their OUI these days, mostly phones, but there's plenty 0:40:53.280 --> 0:40:56.520 that don't easily detectable, So send it over mesh. 0:40:56.600 --> 0:40:58.840 It just gives you a network of detection essentially. 0:41:00.000 --> 0:41:02.400 So if people wanted to get a wee spy, to 0:41:02.400 --> 0:41:04.680 get a mesh de teg, how would they do? 0:41:04.719 --> 0:41:06.520 How they go about it? What are the ways they 0:41:06.600 --> 0:41:07.839 could get on make one? 0:41:08.440 --> 0:41:11.799 Yeah, I have a website called Colonel Panic dot tech 0:41:11.960 --> 0:41:15.000 and it's co l O N E L it's a 0:41:15.040 --> 0:41:17.360 little bit of a play on words. But these devices, like, 0:41:17.400 --> 0:41:19.200 if you really need one of these things, hit me up, 0:41:19.520 --> 0:41:22.560 we'll talk. But also it's just two wires, you know, 0:41:22.680 --> 0:41:25.760 like you can take my design and just reverse engineer 0:41:25.800 --> 0:41:27.799 it and copy it, and I put the wiring on 0:41:27.840 --> 0:41:30.680 my GitHub. Every bit of this is open source, so 0:41:30.680 --> 0:41:33.000 if you look up Colonel Panic GitHub. You can take 0:41:33.000 --> 0:41:35.400 this and make it on your own. I've made Home 0:41:35.760 --> 0:41:39.319 Assistant integration, so like if a OUI pops up around 0:41:39.360 --> 0:41:41.560 your house, you can just get an alert via your 0:41:41.600 --> 0:41:42.160 smart home. 0:41:42.640 --> 0:41:44.839 You could just go on there, you know, dev it out. 0:41:45.160 --> 0:41:47.759 If you see something that's that I screwed up, just 0:41:47.960 --> 0:41:48.920 let me know and I'll. 0:41:48.800 --> 0:41:52.520 Fix it or we'll we'll collab. So it's all open source. Yeah. 0:41:52.640 --> 0:41:54.320 How about Rayhunter? 0:41:54.760 --> 0:41:59.200 Yeah, so folks can go to Rayhunter dot eff dot 0:41:59.360 --> 0:42:02.319 org and that is our ray Hunter documentation. That's our 0:42:02.440 --> 0:42:06.600 the ray Hunter book essentially, and there you can find 0:42:06.920 --> 0:42:09.759 links on where to buy the hardware. We do not 0:42:09.840 --> 0:42:12.680 sell the hardware, but you can buy the hardware on 0:42:13.480 --> 0:42:18.279 eBay or Amazon. Sometimes the Orbit is what people use 0:42:18.320 --> 0:42:23.040 in the US primarily, and like South America, in Europe 0:42:23.200 --> 0:42:26.759 and parts of Africa, there's a tp link device that 0:42:26.960 --> 0:42:30.880 fits the bill better for those areas, and once you 0:42:30.880 --> 0:42:33.759 buy the hardware, you can install the software on it there. 0:42:34.160 --> 0:42:36.640 The hardware, unfortunately, is not open source because like I said. 0:42:36.520 --> 0:42:39.280 We didn't buil the hardware. We're just repurposing old hardware. 0:42:39.400 --> 0:42:41.719 Right when this when the project started, you could buy 0:42:41.760 --> 0:42:44.719 the hardware for like ten or twenty bucks. Now it's 0:42:44.719 --> 0:42:47.799 harder to find because of people have bought out a 0:42:47.800 --> 0:42:51.000 lot of the supply and other scalpers have wised up 0:42:51.040 --> 0:42:52.719 to the fact that people are trying to buy these. 0:42:53.520 --> 0:42:57.719 So unfortunately, we've created a whole like mini market. I'm 0:42:57.760 --> 0:43:00.799 a I'm a I'm a market maker. Goddamn it, We've 0:43:00.800 --> 0:43:04.480 got a hyper capitalists right here. But no, there's like 0:43:04.520 --> 0:43:06.920 there's a whole you know, midi market of people selling 0:43:07.000 --> 0:43:10.399 like already installed ray Hunters on eBay and stuff. Yeah, 0:43:10.800 --> 0:43:13.440 I don't recommend paying more than like forty or sixty 0:43:13.480 --> 0:43:17.200 bucks for the hardware, but then yeah, the software is free. 0:43:17.400 --> 0:43:19.920 It's free, it's open source. Right, it's on get ub 0:43:20.400 --> 0:43:22.080 you can go edit it right now. And you know, 0:43:22.160 --> 0:43:24.640 I know there's a lot of tech folks that listen 0:43:24.680 --> 0:43:26.120 to the show, and I just want to say, like, 0:43:26.400 --> 0:43:30.160 there's so many cool opportunities for counter surveillance, right, Like 0:43:30.239 --> 0:43:33.239 we keep kind of kind of mentioning that, like a 0:43:33.280 --> 0:43:36.200 lot of police hardware is made by this company Axon, 0:43:36.400 --> 0:43:38.680 and it has a very unique. 0:43:38.360 --> 0:43:40.560 Bluetooth signature that can be easily detected. 0:43:40.680 --> 0:43:44.560 Right, There's a lot of really interesting stuff that you 0:43:44.600 --> 0:43:45.680 can do with casual balance. 0:43:45.680 --> 0:43:49.360 And the chip that the OUI. 0:43:49.000 --> 0:43:52.080 Spy runs on, the ESP thirty two, is this really 0:43:52.120 --> 0:43:53.440 powerful little chip that only. 0:43:53.280 --> 0:43:56.320 Costs like six bucks if you buy them wholesale, and it's. 0:43:56.120 --> 0:43:58.279 Got Wi Fi blue shooth and a bunch of really 0:43:58.280 --> 0:44:01.439 cool capabilities you know, that you could use to make 0:44:01.480 --> 0:44:03.719 some really cool counter surveillance stuff. And so I really 0:44:03.719 --> 0:44:06.839 want to encourage the tech minug folks to like think 0:44:06.840 --> 0:44:09.799 about this. Come look at these projects, you know, come, 0:44:10.000 --> 0:44:12.439 you know, write your own code or make your own projects. Right, 0:44:12.480 --> 0:44:15.520 But like the quote from hackers, and as as your 0:44:15.920 --> 0:44:19.560 beautifully designed PC board says colonel, we can snoop onto 0:44:19.600 --> 0:44:22.680 them as they snoop onto us, right exactly, we need 0:44:22.719 --> 0:44:24.960 to spy back, right, and we need to raise the 0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:27.319 cost of them spying on us, right. 0:44:27.360 --> 0:44:29.520 And that's like, sorry, let mean that that brings me 0:44:29.600 --> 0:44:30.799 to another attemp to go off. 0:44:30.960 --> 0:44:33.560 What's really cool about these products is like you can 0:44:33.560 --> 0:44:36.319 build ryhunter for about twenty bucks, right you could. You 0:44:36.360 --> 0:44:40.120 could buy a beautiful PC board and the already assembled 0:44:40.120 --> 0:44:43.759 thing from Colonel for you know, a few dollars. 0:44:44.480 --> 0:44:46.440 I don't know the price off timets. 0:44:46.480 --> 0:44:48.319 I don't want to say, or you could build one 0:44:48.400 --> 0:44:51.480 for you know, under twenty bucks, right yep, And you 0:44:51.560 --> 0:44:55.719 are then for you know, twenty or forty bucks, you 0:44:55.800 --> 0:44:59.600 are making useless a surveillance tool and a surveillance network 0:44:59.600 --> 0:45:03.080 which costs hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars. 0:45:03.560 --> 0:45:05.920 Right The economics here are on our. 0:45:05.880 --> 0:45:08.879 Side, yeah, right, Like this is just like any sort 0:45:08.880 --> 0:45:13.520 of asymmetrical warfare, right Like it costs millions and billions 0:45:13.560 --> 0:45:16.000 and really billions of dollars for the governments of the 0:45:16.120 --> 0:45:18.799 US to set up this surveillance economy, and we can 0:45:18.840 --> 0:45:23.120 defeat it for you know, twenty or forty bucks each, right, Like, 0:45:23.239 --> 0:45:25.399 we can do this a lot longer than they can. 0:45:25.480 --> 0:45:28.120 They will go broke before we do. And I think 0:45:28.120 --> 0:45:30.920 that that's really important, right, Like, like the asymmetry here 0:45:30.960 --> 0:45:33.520 and the economics here are actually on our side. 0:45:33.960 --> 0:45:34.480 Yeah. 0:45:34.520 --> 0:45:38.960 And it's also like it's cool to understand and make stuff. 0:45:39.440 --> 0:45:42.480 I am very good at fixing things that work on 0:45:42.800 --> 0:45:45.839 you know, like explosion happens and piston lifts, right like 0:45:45.880 --> 0:45:49.279 that that's my wheelhouse. I can fix my truck, I 0:45:49.280 --> 0:45:50.280 can fix my bicycle. 0:45:50.560 --> 0:45:53.680 I can fix are you saying you like ice internal 0:45:53.680 --> 0:45:54.640 combustion yea. 0:45:56.680 --> 0:45:59.440 In many ways, both ices will be the end of 0:45:59.480 --> 0:46:02.439 all of us. I enjoy to fix one. 0:46:02.520 --> 0:46:04.200 I like to look at it and go like, uh 0:46:04.320 --> 0:46:06.600 huh okay, this goes bang and then this goes up. 0:46:06.640 --> 0:46:08.880 And it's cool to learn this stuff. 0:46:08.880 --> 0:46:12.040 It's cool to learn a new skill, especially like once 0:46:12.040 --> 0:46:13.920 you get into your thirties, it's like it's good to 0:46:14.000 --> 0:46:18.359 learn shit. Yeah, and this is approachable, especially like the 0:46:18.480 --> 0:46:22.040 guides for these are very approachable, even if you're not 0:46:22.200 --> 0:46:24.520 like a tech punk. If this is your first time 0:46:24.640 --> 0:46:27.440 going on GitHub and that there are people you can 0:46:27.480 --> 0:46:29.920 reach out to, like real nice people. You won't get 0:46:29.920 --> 0:46:33.399 an AI tech support. Someone will help you understand this shit, 0:46:33.520 --> 0:46:34.600 and that is cool. 0:46:35.160 --> 0:46:37.600 There's a platform called the M five stack that makes 0:46:37.600 --> 0:46:39.960 it really easy, so like you get you get a 0:46:40.400 --> 0:46:43.960 jaw ESP thirty two, but M five stack makes it 0:46:44.040 --> 0:46:45.800 so that like you don't even have to do soldering, 0:46:45.880 --> 0:46:48.799 and they have drag and drop coating so you can 0:46:48.880 --> 0:46:51.120 just plug in sensors and things like you can make 0:46:51.120 --> 0:46:52.800 a drawing detector out of one of those and already 0:46:52.840 --> 0:46:55.800 has like a screen onboard, and so like it's super 0:46:55.920 --> 0:46:58.400 cheap and you could just deb it out really hard 0:46:58.520 --> 0:46:59.400 and just go for it. 0:46:59.440 --> 0:47:02.239 You know, it's it's easy for makers nowadays. 0:47:02.320 --> 0:47:04.640 Like in the fifties, right, you have to have an 0:47:04.760 --> 0:47:07.640 entire military and industry complex behind you to do this 0:47:07.719 --> 0:47:09.759 kind of stuff, right, or a corporation, And now you 0:47:09.800 --> 0:47:11.760 can just. 0:47:10.880 --> 0:47:12.719 Just make yourself a little thing in your house. It's 0:47:12.719 --> 0:47:13.200 really cool. 0:47:13.560 --> 0:47:18.040 Yeah, And like, you know, I was in Minnesota there 0:47:18.239 --> 0:47:20.880 at the time when lots of ice and CBP agents 0:47:20.920 --> 0:47:24.239 were too when they took a lot of people and 0:47:24.320 --> 0:47:27.680 killed two people. And like, one of the things that 0:47:27.920 --> 0:47:32.759 was beautiful about that really horrible time was that everyone 0:47:32.960 --> 0:47:37.160 was so locked in, like to include grandmothers, to include 0:47:37.160 --> 0:47:38.920 a dude with a sign that said, what would Ronald 0:47:38.960 --> 0:47:42.319 Reagan do? Like, no one wanted those people in their town, right, 0:47:42.360 --> 0:47:45.200 And that requires everyone to do what they do best. 0:47:45.320 --> 0:47:47.800 Not everyone can be out on a street corner whistle 0:47:47.840 --> 0:47:50.240 in a whistle or driving around. 0:47:50.320 --> 0:47:50.480 Right. 0:47:50.560 --> 0:47:53.440 Some people that have had like a really powerful skill set. 0:47:53.440 --> 0:47:55.680 And if you are someone who can't be out, you 0:47:55.719 --> 0:47:59.280 can still help create these You can help code this stuff. 0:47:59.440 --> 0:48:03.759 Like it's beautiful when our resistance takes the best from 0:48:03.840 --> 0:48:06.840 all of us, and then we are all better because 0:48:06.840 --> 0:48:07.080 of that. 0:48:08.160 --> 0:48:10.480 Absolutely beautifully said. 0:48:10.719 --> 0:48:13.520 Anything you guys would like to plug before we go, websites, 0:48:14.400 --> 0:48:17.480 util aid projects, favorite snacks, whatever you want. 0:48:17.800 --> 0:48:20.239 Take a peek at d flock dot emmy if you 0:48:20.280 --> 0:48:22.560 want to. I have nothing to do with that project yet, 0:48:22.600 --> 0:48:25.719 but you know they map in the flock cams. You 0:48:25.719 --> 0:48:29.600 can use these detectors as supplementary devices to confirm or 0:48:29.960 --> 0:48:32.319 to find things you haven't seen. But other than that, 0:48:32.400 --> 0:48:34.719 just kernel, panic, dot tech, and definitely check out e FF. 0:48:34.719 --> 0:48:36.080 They get a lot of good stuff going on and 0:48:36.080 --> 0:48:37.680 they've been doing it since the early days. 0:48:39.680 --> 0:48:43.719 I guess i'll plug EFF's surveillance self defense guys specifically, 0:48:44.760 --> 0:48:46.759 that'ssd dot eff dot org. 0:48:46.840 --> 0:48:47.200 We got it. 0:48:47.200 --> 0:48:54.360 We're the only continuously updated and long longest maintained security guys. 0:48:54.400 --> 0:48:56.520 There's also the act of this checklist, which is a 0:48:56.520 --> 0:49:00.520 really great another really great resource. The Survellans off defense 0:49:00.520 --> 0:49:02.680 guides are almost like a textbook, like there's a lot 0:49:02.719 --> 0:49:04.920 of info there, but if you just need the like 0:49:05.080 --> 0:49:08.040 quick and dirty cliffs that it's version. The Activist checklist 0:49:08.080 --> 0:49:10.480 is really great for that, right and they're doing a 0:49:10.480 --> 0:49:12.759 good job keeping that up. A lot of respect to them, 0:49:13.239 --> 0:49:15.560 and then yeah, I checked out you know Rayhunter dot 0:49:15.560 --> 0:49:19.040 eff dot org for Ray Hunter stuff, Colonel Panic dot 0:49:19.080 --> 0:49:21.120 tech for his stuff to see plugged my stuff. 0:49:21.840 --> 0:49:22.359 I guess the. 0:49:22.320 --> 0:49:27.120 Other thing that I will plug is open Archive, which 0:49:27.160 --> 0:49:30.960 is a nonprofit that I'm on the board of. They're 0:49:31.000 --> 0:49:36.400 making an app called save which allows you to securely record, 0:49:36.600 --> 0:49:41.040 archive and verify videos of whatever you want, say, such 0:49:41.040 --> 0:49:45.360 as human rights abuses or you know, police atrocities or 0:49:45.400 --> 0:49:49.120 things of that nature. And so I recommend that project. 0:49:49.120 --> 0:49:50.640 Go check them out. They're really good folks. 0:49:50.640 --> 0:49:53.040 If you're doing a lot of cop watch type stuff, 0:49:53.520 --> 0:49:55.239 that's a good place to go. 0:49:55.880 --> 0:49:58.520 Fantastic nice Well, thank you very much for joining us. 0:49:58.560 --> 0:49:59.000 It was great. 0:49:59.280 --> 0:50:00.920 Thank you for having us. Thank you. 0:50:04.600 --> 0:50:07.120 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 0:50:07.280 --> 0:50:10.360 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 0:50:10.440 --> 0:50:14.000 Coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 0:50:14.080 --> 0:50:17.640 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 0:50:17.680 --> 0:50:20.040 now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly 0:50:20.040 --> 0:50:22.320 in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.