1 00:00:06,790 --> 00:00:10,690 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host, 2 00:00:10,869 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. Hey, everybody. 3 00:00:15,580 --> 00:00:20,100 Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. Imagine boarding 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 2: a flight home for the holidays, unaware that a bomb 5 00:00:23,610 --> 00:00:26,370 Speaker 2: hidden in a suitcase is about to destroy the plane. 6 00:00:27,390 --> 00:00:33,820 Speaker 2: On December 21st, 1988, the unimaginable happened. Pan Am Flight 7 00:00:33,820 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 2: 103 exploded over Lockerbie, Scotland, killing 270 people. What followed 8 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,100 Speaker 2: was a massive international terrorism investigation led on the American 9 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 2: side by FBI Special Agent Dick Marquis. 10 00:00:48,659 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: He's portrayed by Patrick J. 11 00:00:50,300 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 2: Adams in Netflix's gripping series, The Bombing of Pan Am 103, 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 2: which Dick helped bring to life. Today, he's taking us 13 00:00:58,450 --> 00:01:02,340 Speaker 2: inside the real investigation. How did they crack the case? 14 00:01:02,620 --> 00:01:05,500 Speaker 2: What did Hollywood get wrong? And nearly four decades later, 15 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:11,030 Speaker 2: why is this story still unfinished? Dick is so fascinating, 16 00:01:11,150 --> 00:01:13,509 Speaker 2: and I just cannot wait to talk with him today. 17 00:01:13,950 --> 00:01:14,650 Speaker 1: Hello, Dick. 18 00:01:14,690 --> 00:01:17,270 Speaker 2: Welcome to Killer Thriller. Thank you so much for talking 19 00:01:17,290 --> 00:01:17,890 Speaker 2: with me today. 20 00:01:17,910 --> 00:01:20,060 Speaker 3: You're more than welcome. How are you? 21 00:01:20,380 --> 00:01:21,140 Speaker 1: I'm doing great. 22 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:26,660 Speaker 2: I am fiercely fascinated by your job and this case 23 00:01:26,780 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 2: and you, so I really do mean it when I 24 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,819 Speaker 2: say it's an honor to talk with you. And there's 25 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 2: a lot to cover, so we'll try to get to 26 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,170 Speaker 2: as much of it as we can. So for anyone 27 00:01:38,330 --> 00:01:43,130 Speaker 2: unfamiliar with the case, take us back to December 21st, 1988. 28 00:01:43,130 --> 00:01:47,229 Speaker 2: What happened to Pan Am Flight 103, and how did 29 00:01:47,250 --> 00:01:50,190 Speaker 2: the investigators establish that it was a bomb that had 30 00:01:50,210 --> 00:01:50,970 Speaker 2: brought down the plane? 31 00:01:52,530 --> 00:01:55,750 Speaker 3: That's going to be a mouthful. On December 21st, 1988, 32 00:01:55,730 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 3: Pan Am 103... was scheduled to leave London for New 33 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:07,860 Speaker 3: York on a Boeing 747, a very large aircraft. The 34 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:13,450 Speaker 3: flight was left literally on time. It departed at 625, 35 00:02:13,450 --> 00:02:19,110 Speaker 3: left the ground at 625, which is normal. And about 36 00:02:19,110 --> 00:02:24,109 Speaker 3: 38 minutes later, as it crossed into Scottish airspace, the 37 00:02:24,230 --> 00:02:28,470 Speaker 3: plane was at 31,000 feet, and it exploded over the 38 00:02:28,510 --> 00:02:33,010 Speaker 3: town of Lockerbie and spread debris over what would amount 39 00:02:33,050 --> 00:02:37,510 Speaker 3: to a crime scene of about 845 square miles, which 40 00:02:37,570 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 3: was massive, probably the largest crime scene in history. On 41 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 3: board the aircraft were passengers from about 21 countries. It 42 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:53,500 Speaker 3: was an American carrier. And the plane landed on Lockerbie, 43 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 3: which is in Dumfries Shire, which is literally the smallest 44 00:02:58,419 --> 00:03:05,510 Speaker 3: police constabulary in the United Kingdom with 333 officers in 1988. 45 00:03:05,510 --> 00:03:07,530 Speaker 2: I mean, there were several things even just about that. 46 00:03:07,550 --> 00:03:13,790 Speaker 2: The fact that it exploded over land allowed for the, 47 00:03:14,150 --> 00:03:17,310 Speaker 2: although it was extensive, almost 850 square miles, it at 48 00:03:17,350 --> 00:03:21,580 Speaker 2: least gave you a place to actually find evidence as 49 00:03:21,660 --> 00:03:26,500 Speaker 2: opposed to it exploding over the ocean, right? Um, so 50 00:03:26,540 --> 00:03:31,290 Speaker 2: the bombing killed 270 people, including 259 passengers and crew 51 00:03:31,410 --> 00:03:35,050 Speaker 2: and 11 people on the ground in Lockerbie. And the 52 00:03:35,110 --> 00:03:38,370 Speaker 2: series does such a beautiful job of going back and 53 00:03:38,450 --> 00:03:44,090 Speaker 2: forth between the emotional life of the community in Lockerbie, 54 00:03:44,190 --> 00:03:47,390 Speaker 2: who they were just preparing for Christmas and a plane 55 00:03:47,450 --> 00:03:48,370 Speaker 2: lands on their town. 56 00:03:48,390 --> 00:03:51,450 Speaker 1: I mean, it would, it devastated this, this community. 57 00:03:51,470 --> 00:03:56,340 Speaker 2: Um, But also on board were 35 Syracuse University students 58 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 2: returning from study abroad. How did the loss of so 59 00:04:01,140 --> 00:04:04,890 Speaker 2: many young people heading home for the holidays affect all 60 00:04:04,930 --> 00:04:06,330 Speaker 2: of you that were working on the case? 61 00:04:06,690 --> 00:04:10,890 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, clearly, police officers, even FBI agents, we 62 00:04:10,910 --> 00:04:13,770 Speaker 3: don't work a lot of murder cases. But when you 63 00:04:13,790 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 3: start thinking you have 270 murders, which includes 11 people 64 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 3: on the ground in Lockerbie, 270 murders is big for anyone. 65 00:04:24,820 --> 00:04:29,089 Speaker 3: And the fact that it happened around Christmas time. There were, 66 00:04:29,110 --> 00:04:32,890 Speaker 3: I think, a total of about 60 students coming from 67 00:04:32,950 --> 00:04:36,970 Speaker 3: all over the world. Syracuse lost the bulk of them, 35. 68 00:04:36,970 --> 00:04:41,339 Speaker 3: But there were students coming from around the globe, coming 69 00:04:41,700 --> 00:04:44,860 Speaker 3: back to the United States to spend Christmas. A number 70 00:04:44,900 --> 00:04:48,390 Speaker 3: of children under the age of 16. I mean, we 71 00:04:48,470 --> 00:04:51,630 Speaker 3: all had kids. Those of us that were investigating would 72 00:04:51,670 --> 00:04:55,210 Speaker 3: come to investigate the case. We had children. And it 73 00:04:55,270 --> 00:04:58,170 Speaker 3: was one of the things that kept us going on 74 00:04:58,610 --> 00:05:03,060 Speaker 3: those days when very little was accomplished because everybody wanted 75 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 3: answers right away. Who did this? And as you know, 76 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 3: on television, the answer is resolved in 30 or 60 minutes. 77 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:11,659 Speaker 3: And you know who did it and they go to 78 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,890 Speaker 3: jail and it's all done. But this case took years. 79 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,700 Speaker 3: before we had what we considered to be positive answers 80 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 3: about what happened. Right. 81 00:05:21,580 --> 00:05:24,979 Speaker 2: So when the wreckage is across 850 square miles, how 82 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,850 Speaker 2: do you even begin investigating a crime scene that enormous? 83 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:31,930 Speaker 1: What were the greatest challenges? 84 00:05:32,410 --> 00:05:38,529 Speaker 3: Well, the greatest challenge was probably communication between organizations. The 85 00:05:38,630 --> 00:05:42,790 Speaker 3: crime happened in Scotland. The police in Scotland were a 86 00:05:42,870 --> 00:05:47,100 Speaker 3: very capable law enforcement agency that had never seen anything 87 00:05:47,180 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 3: like this before. The FBI had never really seen anything 88 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,710 Speaker 3: like this before. I mean, certainly it was pre 9-11, 89 00:05:55,230 --> 00:05:58,969 Speaker 3: pre the Oklahoma City bombing, pre the First World Trade 90 00:05:58,990 --> 00:05:59,830 Speaker 3: Center attack. 91 00:06:00,190 --> 00:06:01,030 Speaker 1: Right, right. 92 00:06:01,370 --> 00:06:06,190 Speaker 3: This was massive to cover. The U.S. government had given 93 00:06:06,470 --> 00:06:11,380 Speaker 3: jurisdiction to itself, to the U.S. government, to investigate terrorist 94 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:17,300 Speaker 3: attacks against Americans overseas and the ability to assist other 95 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:22,610 Speaker 3: governments in investigating these cases. Well, the FBI, and I 96 00:06:22,630 --> 00:06:26,610 Speaker 3: spent 31 years there, loves to be in charge. And 97 00:06:26,670 --> 00:06:30,270 Speaker 3: in the United States, when the FBI shows up, many 98 00:06:30,370 --> 00:06:34,500 Speaker 3: local police departments accept the help. They're more than happy 99 00:06:34,580 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 3: to have a larger agency that has reach all over 100 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,309 Speaker 3: the world to come in and assist. Well, the police 101 00:06:42,370 --> 00:06:46,650 Speaker 3: in Scotland, small department, they were capable. They wanted to 102 00:06:46,690 --> 00:06:50,210 Speaker 3: feel they could solve this case themselves. And it took 103 00:06:50,250 --> 00:06:54,860 Speaker 3: a while before we were able to collaborate in what 104 00:06:54,940 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 3: would be a very positive manner to get to the 105 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,140 Speaker 3: bottom line. But it was the police in Scotland that 106 00:07:02,220 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 3: did all of the searching in the fields. The FBI 107 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,549 Speaker 3: didn't do any of that. It was all done by 108 00:07:08,580 --> 00:07:12,060 Speaker 3: the police in Scotland. So They are the people who 109 00:07:12,140 --> 00:07:16,100 Speaker 3: found very small fragments of evidence that would later become 110 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,530 Speaker 3: key and lead us to answers as to who did this. 111 00:07:20,530 --> 00:07:22,130 Speaker 1: That is what is so fascinating. 112 00:07:22,770 --> 00:07:26,890 Speaker 2: And this show covers this really well, too, how important 113 00:07:26,990 --> 00:07:31,490 Speaker 2: and kind of painstaking and the minutia of looking through 114 00:07:31,510 --> 00:07:32,770 Speaker 2: the just. 115 00:07:33,130 --> 00:07:34,950 Speaker 1: Little fragments of evidence. 116 00:07:35,670 --> 00:07:36,050 Speaker 3: Evidence. 117 00:07:36,390 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 2: And can you talk a little bit about that? Like, 118 00:07:38,980 --> 00:07:42,340 Speaker 2: what was the first moment that you felt like they 119 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 2: were making real progress? Like, was there a particular discovery 120 00:07:45,660 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 2: that changed the direction of the investigation? 121 00:07:49,220 --> 00:07:52,770 Speaker 3: Well, just a few days after, sorry, a few days 122 00:07:53,030 --> 00:07:56,750 Speaker 3: after the bombing and a day or so before Christmas, 123 00:07:57,850 --> 00:08:00,930 Speaker 3: the Scottish police had found a fragment of a baggage 124 00:08:00,990 --> 00:08:04,530 Speaker 3: container made out of aluminum. And on that, that fragment 125 00:08:04,570 --> 00:08:07,610 Speaker 3: was torn and ripped, whereas some of them that fell 126 00:08:07,670 --> 00:08:10,630 Speaker 3: to the ground were bent and broken. This one was 127 00:08:10,750 --> 00:08:15,630 Speaker 3: actually torn apart. And on that fragment was discovered the 128 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 3: components when it went to the laboratory of RDX and PETN, 129 00:08:20,580 --> 00:08:24,820 Speaker 3: which are chemical components that make up plastic explosive called 130 00:08:24,860 --> 00:08:30,350 Speaker 3: Semtex that was then manufactured in Czechoslovakia. That told us 131 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 3: just four days in, This was a bombing. This airplane 132 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,670 Speaker 3: didn't break up. It didn't have mechanical failure. And then 133 00:08:37,750 --> 00:08:41,829 Speaker 3: about two weeks later, as they were examining other debris, 134 00:08:41,890 --> 00:08:46,130 Speaker 3: they had the baggage container. Because the 747s don't just 135 00:08:46,170 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 3: throw suitcases in the belly. They actually have containers that 136 00:08:49,630 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 3: contain the bags. And then they're forklifted onto an aircraft. 137 00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:57,220 Speaker 3: And they're one of the baggage containers that was totally 138 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 3: torn apart and shredded. was where we discovered that the 139 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,670 Speaker 3: bomb was secreted in a suitcase. And when the investigators 140 00:09:04,730 --> 00:09:08,850 Speaker 3: were examining it and shaking it, the first small fragment 141 00:09:08,950 --> 00:09:12,130 Speaker 3: came out of that. It was so small, you've probably 142 00:09:12,210 --> 00:09:14,990 Speaker 3: seen the photograph of it sitting on a man's finger. 143 00:09:15,770 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 3: And that fragment turned out to be from a circuit 144 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,339 Speaker 3: board of a Toshiba radio. So literally in the first month, 145 00:09:23,740 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 3: we thought, whoa, this is great. We're making great progress. 146 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,900 Speaker 3: But It would still take months and months and months 147 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 3: and months and months before we found other fragments, thanks 148 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 3: to the great work done by the police in Scotland. 149 00:09:36,900 --> 00:09:39,380 Speaker 1: It's so fascinating to me. 150 00:09:39,580 --> 00:09:44,179 Speaker 2: So according to the FBI, investigators conducted more than 10,000 151 00:09:44,179 --> 00:09:46,010 Speaker 2: interviews across 16 countries. 152 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: I mean, that is hard to metabolize in and of itself. 153 00:09:51,700 --> 00:09:56,189 Speaker 2: But how did you sort through that enormous volume of 154 00:09:56,250 --> 00:10:00,860 Speaker 2: information and then determine which leads are worth pursuing? 155 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,260 Speaker 3: Well, I think that even going back 35, 40 years ago, 156 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,900 Speaker 3: when I used to watch TV shows like Hawaii Five-0 157 00:10:10,179 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 3: and Jack Lord would go and they'd put these IBM 158 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 3: cards into a computer and And they would all go 159 00:10:17,270 --> 00:10:19,820 Speaker 3: through all these mechanisms. And then all of a sudden, 160 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 3: they would show up in the bottom tray. And here's 161 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 3: the answer. Let's go arrest the guy. Well, we didn't 162 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,970 Speaker 3: have any of that. There were no real computers to 163 00:10:30,020 --> 00:10:33,969 Speaker 3: speak of to manage information. The Scottish police had a 164 00:10:34,010 --> 00:10:39,770 Speaker 3: system called Holmes, named after Sherlock. And it was home 165 00:10:39,870 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 3: office major large inquiry system. So Holmes is what we 166 00:10:45,660 --> 00:10:50,900 Speaker 3: use to track leads. And those leads were, I mean, 167 00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:55,730 Speaker 3: you just had so much information. But even in Washington, 168 00:10:57,070 --> 00:10:59,730 Speaker 3: we would take things and we would say, well, once 169 00:10:59,750 --> 00:11:03,590 Speaker 3: we put something into an FBI file, it might disappear 170 00:11:03,610 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 3: because we don't really have a good way to get 171 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,599 Speaker 3: it out. If you have a file that's got 5,000 172 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,339 Speaker 3: sheets of paper in it, when was that? Where was it? 173 00:11:12,740 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 3: Maybe find it. But we started to make extra copies 174 00:11:16,420 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 3: of things so we would be able to track it ourselves. 175 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 3: But Holmes was very helpful to us to manage the information. 176 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:29,110 Speaker 3: But again, the biggest problem was the collaboration because not 177 00:11:29,150 --> 00:11:33,370 Speaker 3: that there was mistrust, but it was like, who's in 178 00:11:33,429 --> 00:11:36,890 Speaker 3: charge here? I mean, we had some of these discussions 179 00:11:37,450 --> 00:11:40,219 Speaker 3: early on and even later when we had to make 180 00:11:40,270 --> 00:11:44,010 Speaker 3: a decision about where a trial would take place. Nobody 181 00:11:44,070 --> 00:11:46,210 Speaker 3: really wanted to address it because it would be, well, 182 00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:49,130 Speaker 3: if the trial takes place here, then that means you're 183 00:11:49,170 --> 00:11:54,770 Speaker 3: in charge. So there were 190 Americans on the plane. 184 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,420 Speaker 3: It was a U.S. carrier. We wanted to charge them, 185 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,140 Speaker 3: but the Scots wanted to charge them, too. And those 186 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:05,420 Speaker 3: laws that were passed did not say FBI slash U.S. 187 00:12:05,460 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 3: government go in and take over. You have to do it. 188 00:12:10,300 --> 00:12:13,220 Speaker 3: If they have the ability and the willingness to go 189 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,739 Speaker 3: through and have a trial, that's the whole goal of 190 00:12:15,780 --> 00:12:19,089 Speaker 3: those laws, to make sure somebody pays for killing an 191 00:12:19,130 --> 00:12:21,429 Speaker 3: American during a terrorist attack overseas. 192 00:12:21,929 --> 00:12:22,550 Speaker 1: Right, right. 193 00:12:22,590 --> 00:12:26,570 Speaker 2: And so ultimately, the case was tried in the Netherlands. 194 00:12:27,750 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: So how did that, why was that decided? How did 195 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:32,580 Speaker 1: that come about? 196 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:37,170 Speaker 3: Well, the first indictments took place in 1991. both in 197 00:12:37,250 --> 00:12:40,150 Speaker 3: Scotland and in the United States. And if somebody had 198 00:12:40,330 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 3: asked me in 1989, do you think it's possible that 199 00:12:45,620 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 3: there would be joint indictments to announce who's charged in 200 00:12:49,020 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 3: this case? I would have said that would have been 201 00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 3: tough to do, but it worked out because a lot 202 00:12:54,300 --> 00:12:57,460 Speaker 3: of us worked hard to develop the relationships that we 203 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,590 Speaker 3: needed to make sure we didn't go off on some tangent, 204 00:13:01,140 --> 00:13:04,650 Speaker 3: did things behind somebody's back. It was a collaborative effort. 205 00:13:05,290 --> 00:13:08,740 Speaker 3: But the indictments, even though they were returned in 1991, 206 00:13:08,740 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 3: Muammar Gaddafi, the leader of Libya, did not want to 207 00:13:13,100 --> 00:13:17,420 Speaker 3: turn his agents over. And as a result, there were sanctions. 208 00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:21,290 Speaker 3: And we go all the way on to the late 209 00:13:21,770 --> 00:13:26,090 Speaker 3: 1990s when the Libyan government said, well, we're willing to 210 00:13:26,150 --> 00:13:28,910 Speaker 3: turn them over, but we want to go to a 211 00:13:29,090 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 3: neutral place. And they aren't going to the United States 212 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,380 Speaker 3: because they faced a death penalty in the U.S. So 213 00:13:36,420 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 3: the agreement was that the trial would take place in 214 00:13:40,490 --> 00:13:45,030 Speaker 3: a neutral setting, but it was a Scottish court sitting 215 00:13:45,110 --> 00:13:47,790 Speaker 3: at Camp Van Zyst in the Netherlands. Some people think 216 00:13:47,830 --> 00:13:50,090 Speaker 3: it was at The Hague, but it was not. The 217 00:13:50,130 --> 00:13:54,150 Speaker 3: trial took place in a Scottish court under Scottish legal 218 00:13:54,350 --> 00:13:58,530 Speaker 3: rules and systems in a neutral site in the Netherlands. 219 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 3: And that was the agreement that everybody said, this will 220 00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 3: at least allow the truth to come out. 221 00:14:04,070 --> 00:14:05,030 Speaker 1: Right, right. Okay. 222 00:14:05,309 --> 00:14:07,810 Speaker 2: Let's go back to the, I skipped so far ahead 223 00:14:07,830 --> 00:14:12,770 Speaker 2: because I just wanted to cover that. So the investigators 224 00:14:13,250 --> 00:14:17,670 Speaker 2: traced clothing that was associated with the bomb suitcase to 225 00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: a shop in Malta. How did that evidence lead them there? 226 00:14:22,980 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 2: And what did they learn from that, from following that 227 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:26,860 Speaker 2: particular trail? 228 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,900 Speaker 3: Okay. Okay. The first, whenever a crime happens, you can 229 00:14:32,020 --> 00:14:37,250 Speaker 3: begin to make hypotheses about who could possibly have done this. 230 00:14:38,190 --> 00:14:41,750 Speaker 3: And we had a list of suspects. It was long, 231 00:14:42,270 --> 00:14:46,790 Speaker 3: but not tremendously long. The government of Iran was a suspect. 232 00:14:48,110 --> 00:14:51,850 Speaker 3: The Syrian terrorist group called the Popular Front for Liberation 233 00:14:51,910 --> 00:14:56,310 Speaker 3: of Palestine General Command was a suspect because they were 234 00:14:56,410 --> 00:15:03,150 Speaker 3: building devices to be used aboard aviation in Germany in 1988. 235 00:15:03,150 --> 00:15:06,730 Speaker 3: And a cell of that group had been arrested in October. 236 00:15:07,890 --> 00:15:10,860 Speaker 3: And they also used Toshiba radios, which we knew that 237 00:15:10,890 --> 00:15:14,780 Speaker 3: this bomb was. They were sort of our original focus. 238 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 3: Libya was not necessarily off the hook in terms of 239 00:15:19,340 --> 00:15:22,460 Speaker 3: on our long list of suspects, but they were not 240 00:15:22,580 --> 00:15:26,820 Speaker 3: an immediate suspect. So when the clothing began to be identified, 241 00:15:26,940 --> 00:15:31,380 Speaker 3: be located, brought in, examined at a laboratory in England, 242 00:15:32,060 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 3: the forensics people could tell us this clothing was not 243 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 3: anywhere near the bomb. It's pristine. You could take it 244 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,700 Speaker 3: to the dry cleaners and wear it tomorrow. But then 245 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,100 Speaker 3: there were other things that were either shredded, fragmented, where 246 00:15:45,140 --> 00:15:49,550 Speaker 3: the examiners could say this item of clothing was probably 247 00:15:49,630 --> 00:15:53,890 Speaker 3: contained in or near the bomb. And as a result 248 00:15:53,970 --> 00:15:56,170 Speaker 3: of that, some of the things that survived, it was 249 00:15:56,210 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 3: always kind of a joke that the If you want 250 00:15:58,980 --> 00:16:01,900 Speaker 3: to buy a shirt and you want it to survive forever, 251 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,450 Speaker 3: buy one made out of the collar because the collar 252 00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:09,390 Speaker 3: seemed like they would survive a bomb blast. And on 253 00:16:09,410 --> 00:16:13,190 Speaker 3: the collar or next to the collar oftentimes was a 254 00:16:13,250 --> 00:16:18,670 Speaker 3: manufacturer's label. And one of them had Yorkie Clothing Company, 255 00:16:18,740 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 3: but that was actually on a piece of cloth. But 256 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 3: some of the shirts actually had the manufacturer's names still 257 00:16:26,420 --> 00:16:30,420 Speaker 3: on them. But it was a pair of trousers that 258 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,260 Speaker 3: had a lot number and it had the name of 259 00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 3: a clothing company in Malta. And the Scottish police went 260 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 3: there and they identified the company that had bought that 261 00:16:41,860 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 3: lot of clothing. They went and interviewed the shopkeeper in Malta. 262 00:16:47,370 --> 00:16:48,830 Speaker 3: And I had to get a map out and find 263 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,750 Speaker 3: out where Malta was because I had that geography class 264 00:16:52,770 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 3: since I was in fifth grade. And We figured, we, again, 265 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,340 Speaker 3: initially it was the Scottish police that did some of this. 266 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,770 Speaker 3: We figured out that the person was possibly a Libyan 267 00:17:05,850 --> 00:17:09,270 Speaker 3: because the shopkeeper remembered the man had a Libyan accent. 268 00:17:09,950 --> 00:17:13,770 Speaker 3: So that's sort of, we were thinking the Palestinians were 269 00:17:13,830 --> 00:17:18,770 Speaker 3: involved because that was our original suspect, or possibly Ammanians. 270 00:17:19,210 --> 00:17:21,619 Speaker 3: But all of a sudden, and literally we're a year 271 00:17:21,700 --> 00:17:27,220 Speaker 3: into the investigation before this happens. where this shopkeeper says 272 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 3: the man had a Libyan accent. So that started the 273 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:32,900 Speaker 3: path to Libya. Right. 274 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,060 Speaker 2: It's so, this is covered really well in the, you know, 275 00:17:37,260 --> 00:17:41,380 Speaker 2: I'm always curious about what the changes they make in 276 00:17:41,580 --> 00:17:45,830 Speaker 2: when you're telling a narrative story like the Netflix series and, 277 00:17:46,190 --> 00:17:49,570 Speaker 2: you know, what pieces are accurate, what need to be 278 00:17:49,850 --> 00:17:55,030 Speaker 2: sort of reconfigurated for dramatizations and that is so clearly 279 00:17:55,090 --> 00:17:58,330 Speaker 2: methodically covered in the series. And I just, as a 280 00:17:58,550 --> 00:18:03,990 Speaker 2: little quick sidebar, a plug for this series, it's so compelling. 281 00:18:04,570 --> 00:18:09,010 Speaker 2: And I think it's really difficult to achieve two things, 282 00:18:09,090 --> 00:18:14,270 Speaker 2: which is to be compelling in a kind of procedural way, 283 00:18:14,790 --> 00:18:18,129 Speaker 2: and then also in an emotional storytelling way. 284 00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:20,020 Speaker 1: So it really succeeds. 285 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: And I know that you had a lot to do 286 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,020 Speaker 2: with this in the series, Patrick J. Adams plays you, 287 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 2: who he's wonderful in it. How did that feel watching 288 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 2: someone play you? 289 00:18:33,980 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: Did you, yeah, we'll start there. 290 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:44,050 Speaker 3: Well, I have done a lot of television interviews, radio interviews, 291 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:48,050 Speaker 3: interviews for articles and books and things like that. But 292 00:18:48,090 --> 00:18:52,470 Speaker 3: this was the first time that anybody actually played me. 293 00:18:52,609 --> 00:18:56,260 Speaker 3: And I got an email out of the blue from 294 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,780 Speaker 3: Patrick J. Adams a couple of years ago. And he 295 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,580 Speaker 3: said they told me that he had the honor of 296 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 3: playing me. And I had spent my retirement years were 297 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:12,149 Speaker 3: very busy teaching police officers anti-terrorism and working on a 298 00:19:12,369 --> 00:19:15,430 Speaker 3: big project in Poland. I don't watch. I did not 299 00:19:15,490 --> 00:19:17,490 Speaker 3: watch a lot of television. I didn't know. 300 00:19:18,410 --> 00:19:20,110 Speaker 2: I think that makes all of us feel better that 301 00:19:20,150 --> 00:19:21,950 Speaker 2: you're not like spending your time watching TV. 302 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,780 Speaker 3: Well, I'm making up for it. I had never seen Suits. 303 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 3: So I didn't know who he was. Looked him up 304 00:19:31,260 --> 00:19:32,859 Speaker 3: and I said, well, that's supposed to be a big show. 305 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: You're like, oh, he's quite handsome. 306 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,290 Speaker 3: Well, I've had people tell me, he's handsome, you're not. 307 00:19:39,430 --> 00:19:42,250 Speaker 3: I've had other people say, oh, you're better looking than 308 00:19:42,650 --> 00:19:46,469 Speaker 3: he is. I don't go there. He was about the 309 00:19:46,510 --> 00:19:49,870 Speaker 3: same age I was when the case was working. So 310 00:19:50,210 --> 00:19:54,050 Speaker 3: it worked out. But I've met Patrick. We've spent hours 311 00:19:54,109 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 3: and hours on Zoom. He wanted to hear me and 312 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 3: listen to what I had to say. He picked my 313 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:06,379 Speaker 3: brain for probably 40 hours on Zoom. We spent four 314 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 3: or five days together in Lockerbie. 315 00:20:09,490 --> 00:20:10,149 Speaker 1: Oh, you did? 316 00:20:10,770 --> 00:20:13,470 Speaker 3: Yes. I took him on his first trip to Lockerbie 317 00:20:14,250 --> 00:20:17,750 Speaker 3: and showed him around. And it was a fascinating experience 318 00:20:18,510 --> 00:20:23,190 Speaker 3: to meet him. He is just a fine, fine human being. 319 00:20:23,330 --> 00:20:26,550 Speaker 3: And I think an excellent actor. Yes. As a human, 320 00:20:26,650 --> 00:20:29,530 Speaker 3: as a person, I think the world of Patrick and 321 00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:37,010 Speaker 3: his family, I have met some of his kids on Zoom. Oh, wow. 322 00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:41,139 Speaker 3: The two oldest girls gave me a couple of waves 323 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 3: when I was talking to him at his house in California. 324 00:20:44,930 --> 00:20:49,350 Speaker 3: But Patrick did, in my mind, a great job. And 325 00:20:49,630 --> 00:20:51,750 Speaker 3: I think he's a great actor. Now I'll watch everything 326 00:20:51,790 --> 00:20:55,210 Speaker 3: that he's ever been in. So I'm becoming a big fan. 327 00:20:55,470 --> 00:20:59,290 Speaker 1: Yeah, as am I. His work is really terrific in this. 328 00:21:12,940 --> 00:21:16,020 Speaker 2: So the series depicts tensions between, we've talked a little 329 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,020 Speaker 2: bit about the American and Scottish investigators over information sharing. 330 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,420 Speaker 2: So how accurately does that reflect what happened and what 331 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 2: were the biggest challenges of working together? 332 00:21:27,900 --> 00:21:32,129 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, clearly, as I said earlier, the FBI 333 00:21:32,330 --> 00:21:34,649 Speaker 3: likes to be in charge. And in the United States, 334 00:21:34,790 --> 00:21:39,489 Speaker 3: we are almost always, if we have jurisdiction and we 335 00:21:39,510 --> 00:21:43,869 Speaker 3: go someplace, we are primarily responsible. responsible and in charge. 336 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,889 Speaker 3: We show up in Scotland and here's the big bad 337 00:21:48,060 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 3: FBI and everybody in the world knows who we are. 338 00:21:52,740 --> 00:21:55,859 Speaker 3: And to the Scottish cops, we're just another police agency. 339 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 3: I mean, they know a reputation. I used to get 340 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,940 Speaker 3: phone calls from some of the families in the United 341 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,900 Speaker 3: States who'd say, when is the FBI taking over? When 342 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,740 Speaker 3: are you, you're the FBI. This is this small police force. 343 00:22:11,500 --> 00:22:15,390 Speaker 3: But this small police force, they've got egos. They are 344 00:22:15,470 --> 00:22:18,950 Speaker 3: good cops. They did, and nobody could have done a 345 00:22:19,090 --> 00:22:22,030 Speaker 3: better job than they did in collecting evidence. They were 346 00:22:22,270 --> 00:22:25,969 Speaker 3: good interviewers. They were good cops. But what we discovered, 347 00:22:26,109 --> 00:22:29,890 Speaker 3: and they discovered, is that when you bring our expertise 348 00:22:30,750 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 3: and what they could bring to the table, the collaboration worked. 349 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,460 Speaker 3: But there was a lot of, especially in the early days, mistrust. 350 00:22:39,740 --> 00:22:42,419 Speaker 3: Who's going to run out ahead? and solve the case. 351 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 3: Because that was another problem we had working with the CIA. 352 00:22:45,780 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 3: Because in the US, a lot of it is, it's 353 00:22:49,020 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 3: a quest for budget. And if the CIA says, hey, 354 00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:55,860 Speaker 3: they go to Congress and say, we solved Lockerbie. Look 355 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,699 Speaker 3: what we did. We need more money to do blank. 356 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,850 Speaker 3: And the FBI, same thing. We want to be able 357 00:23:01,869 --> 00:23:03,610 Speaker 3: to say, we solved Lockerbie. 358 00:23:03,690 --> 00:23:06,490 Speaker 2: Oh, this is so interesting, because this comes up so 359 00:23:06,550 --> 00:23:10,340 Speaker 2: much in TV shows also. But that tension between the 360 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 2: CIA and the FBI. And is that really often what 361 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 2: it is about? 362 00:23:15,140 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: It's resources? 363 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:22,629 Speaker 3: It's resources. It's totally about money, who solved it first, 364 00:23:23,070 --> 00:23:25,510 Speaker 3: who won. And I'll give you an example. It's kind 365 00:23:25,550 --> 00:23:29,470 Speaker 3: of a bad one, but it's factual. When the second 366 00:23:29,590 --> 00:23:32,540 Speaker 3: fragment that led us to the timer, so when the 367 00:23:32,580 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 3: second fragment was found, it looks like a little one 368 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,740 Speaker 3: on it. Mm-hmm. When that fragment was found blasted into 369 00:23:38,780 --> 00:23:42,340 Speaker 3: a piece of clothing by a Scottish cop 30 miles 370 00:23:42,460 --> 00:23:46,140 Speaker 3: from Lockerbie. Think about that. This fragment was found 30 371 00:23:46,140 --> 00:23:49,980 Speaker 3: miles from where the airplane literally hit the ground. And 372 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 3: they brought it in and that led us to some 373 00:23:52,340 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 3: of the clothing, led us to a better identification of 374 00:23:55,580 --> 00:23:59,940 Speaker 3: the radio because it was a speaker. The instruction manual 375 00:23:59,980 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 3: was actually blasted into this as well as that timer 376 00:24:03,940 --> 00:24:06,850 Speaker 3: fragment that led us to the Swiss company that led 377 00:24:06,930 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 3: us to have more directly tied Libya to this. Well, 378 00:24:11,180 --> 00:24:15,419 Speaker 3: the Scottish cops wanted to, they showed it to us 379 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,859 Speaker 3: a year after the bombing. We knew it existed. And 380 00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 3: we said, okay, give us photographs. We will see what 381 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,630 Speaker 3: we can do on our end to solve. Nope, nope. 382 00:24:25,950 --> 00:24:28,810 Speaker 3: We want to do it ourselves. It was a little 383 00:24:28,869 --> 00:24:32,669 Speaker 3: bit of that ego. They wanted to do it. Well, 384 00:24:33,290 --> 00:24:37,430 Speaker 3: six months after they wanted to do it, They came 385 00:24:37,570 --> 00:24:41,590 Speaker 3: to Quantico for a meeting in Virginia and said, we 386 00:24:41,630 --> 00:24:44,389 Speaker 3: have no idea. We said, give us a shot at it. 387 00:24:44,410 --> 00:24:49,010 Speaker 3: Six months. They went to 17, I'm sorry, 55 companies 388 00:24:49,369 --> 00:24:53,260 Speaker 3: in 17 countries, couldn't figure it out. So they gave 389 00:24:53,300 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 3: it to us and it took Com Thurman two days 390 00:24:55,820 --> 00:24:59,620 Speaker 3: to find out what happened. And he went to the CIA. 391 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,699 Speaker 3: Of course, the CIA didn't know about it either, but 392 00:25:03,210 --> 00:25:05,070 Speaker 3: They all of a sudden they've got it. And that 393 00:25:05,230 --> 00:25:11,510 Speaker 3: moved us rapidly, rapidly. And we finally we got we 394 00:25:11,530 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 3: got smart. My former boss at the FBI, a man 395 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,900 Speaker 3: named Neil Gallagher, he came to me and he said, 396 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 3: I think we need to bring everybody to sit down. CIA, MI5, 397 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,260 Speaker 3: Scottish police and the FBI and say, hey, look, guys, 398 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,100 Speaker 3: we've got to do better than this. And I give 399 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,189 Speaker 3: Neil all the credit for that. And we had our 400 00:25:32,250 --> 00:25:36,270 Speaker 3: first meeting in Washington. And we realized at that point 401 00:25:36,369 --> 00:25:39,750 Speaker 3: that there were people that really wanted, we all did, 402 00:25:39,810 --> 00:25:43,410 Speaker 3: we wanted to solve this. And we put our egos 403 00:25:43,470 --> 00:25:46,460 Speaker 3: in the drawer. We put our thoughts about, I'm not 404 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,340 Speaker 3: saying that back in the, you know what, it would 405 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 3: be cool if we could do this on our own, 406 00:25:49,980 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 3: you know? 407 00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:51,340 Speaker 1: I know, yeah. 408 00:25:51,420 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 3: But we said, look, there's enough glory to go around. 409 00:25:56,310 --> 00:26:00,740 Speaker 3: We had some real come to Jesus discussions. that were honest. 410 00:26:01,380 --> 00:26:07,590 Speaker 3: And unfortunately, I think I'm one of the last people 411 00:26:07,690 --> 00:26:11,470 Speaker 3: still living in that group. Really? There were literally four 412 00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 3: of us. And the guy from the CIA was actually 413 00:26:14,300 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 3: a Secret Service agent. Stuart Henderson, my counterpart in Scotland, 414 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 3: he has passed away. I went to his funeral six 415 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:28,570 Speaker 3: or seven years ago now. But we came together and 416 00:26:28,750 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 3: we said, look, We got a job to do. Let's 417 00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:35,740 Speaker 3: solve this. And that is what really, in my mind, 418 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 3: pushed us over the top and got us to where 419 00:26:39,220 --> 00:26:44,980 Speaker 3: we got because we began a much better collaboration after that. Right. 420 00:26:45,310 --> 00:26:48,770 Speaker 2: It kind of really helped to create kind of a 421 00:26:48,810 --> 00:26:52,990 Speaker 2: new template for how the FBI handles international investigations. 422 00:26:53,450 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 3: Yes. It did. Absolutely. I mean, it was in 1988. 423 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 3: These laws had only been in existence for, well, the 424 00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 3: first one in 1984 and the second was 1986. The 425 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,260 Speaker 3: first one just said if you committed a terrorist attack, 426 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 3: you kidnap an American during a terrorist attack, the U.S. 427 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,250 Speaker 3: government asserts jurisdiction and authority. The second one said if 428 00:27:14,270 --> 00:27:18,250 Speaker 3: you kill or injure an American. So these were new statutes. 429 00:27:18,810 --> 00:27:22,409 Speaker 3: This was kind of a big, big, big deal. And 430 00:27:22,550 --> 00:27:24,450 Speaker 3: we were still sort of feeling a way around how 431 00:27:24,470 --> 00:27:27,900 Speaker 3: does this work. Wow. I like to think I was 432 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,659 Speaker 3: a pioneer before there was such a thing as a pioneer. 433 00:27:31,900 --> 00:27:33,100 Speaker 1: Without a doubt, yes. 434 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 2: So there is a scene in the film where you 435 00:27:35,540 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 2: meet with the CEO of Pan Am and have a 436 00:27:39,220 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 2: somewhat contentious conversation. 437 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:41,780 Speaker 1: Did that really happen? 438 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:47,719 Speaker 3: Yes and no. I did meet with Thomas Plaskett at 439 00:27:48,310 --> 00:27:54,690 Speaker 3: a suite at a hotel in Washington. And I believe... 440 00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:57,730 Speaker 3: He offered me breakfast, and I don't– it was not– 441 00:27:57,890 --> 00:28:00,970 Speaker 3: I think this one, the show showed a steak. Yeah. 442 00:28:01,030 --> 00:28:03,700 Speaker 3: They made great steaks here. Right. And I turned it 443 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 3: down and gave him the bill. It was nothing like that. 444 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,659 Speaker 3: His daughter actually contacted me and asked me if that happened. 445 00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:17,070 Speaker 3: He's since passed away. And his daughter contacted me and said, 446 00:28:17,390 --> 00:28:22,550 Speaker 3: was it really a contentious meeting? And it wasn't. It was– 447 00:28:24,010 --> 00:28:27,270 Speaker 3: He had brought to us a document done by their 448 00:28:27,410 --> 00:28:31,130 Speaker 3: investigators that they had hired that literally blamed the United 449 00:28:31,170 --> 00:28:35,010 Speaker 3: States government for blowing the plane up. Now, he was 450 00:28:35,050 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 3: a messenger. He may have been the CEO, but he's 451 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:39,500 Speaker 3: bringing this. He said, I'm going to bring this to 452 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,580 Speaker 3: your attention. It's the results of our investigation. And it 453 00:28:44,620 --> 00:28:48,620 Speaker 3: would never have been my personality to have done the 454 00:28:48,660 --> 00:28:53,900 Speaker 3: way Patrick did, but dramatic effect. I understand it. There 455 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 3: were a few other things that I understood the dramatic effect. 456 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,860 Speaker 3: Many of the things that actually happened that they show 457 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,260 Speaker 3: were real. They did happen. They got the evidentiary things 458 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,690 Speaker 3: almost exactly right. I would have added something else, but 459 00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:13,530 Speaker 3: you would have needed about three or four more episodes 460 00:29:13,950 --> 00:29:19,050 Speaker 3: to make it factually 100% correct. They got the evidence right. Right. 461 00:29:19,110 --> 00:29:21,230 Speaker 2: Wait, what would you have added that if you could have? 462 00:29:21,890 --> 00:29:25,250 Speaker 2: Was there something specific you were just thinking of? 463 00:29:25,510 --> 00:29:30,650 Speaker 3: It had to do with identifying the fragment at the CIA. 464 00:29:30,870 --> 00:29:36,190 Speaker 3: And then identifying that McGrahy, the one man that was 465 00:29:36,270 --> 00:29:41,670 Speaker 3: convicted back in 2001, was actually using a passport of 466 00:29:41,710 --> 00:29:46,110 Speaker 3: somebody else. That would have been a whole separate episode. Right. 467 00:29:46,730 --> 00:29:50,970 Speaker 3: And how we got that from another intelligence agency because 468 00:29:51,230 --> 00:29:55,140 Speaker 3: we were now sharing and collaborating and working. But that 469 00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:00,450 Speaker 3: information about that other passport came from the NSA. Even 470 00:30:00,870 --> 00:30:04,510 Speaker 3: though they don't want to admit they exist, but they do. 471 00:30:04,570 --> 00:30:06,610 Speaker 3: They have a website, so they do exist. I know 472 00:30:06,650 --> 00:30:06,990 Speaker 3: they do. 473 00:30:07,210 --> 00:30:07,970 Speaker 1: Right. 474 00:30:09,530 --> 00:30:13,540 Speaker 2: So in talking about, okay, so McGrahy was convicted and 475 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 2: FEMA was not found guilty. 476 00:30:18,850 --> 00:30:19,660 Speaker 1: That's correct, right? 477 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:20,770 Speaker 3: Yes. 478 00:30:21,290 --> 00:30:25,350 Speaker 2: So if you had to identify the single most compelling 479 00:30:25,370 --> 00:30:29,990 Speaker 2: piece of evidence that supported the case against McGrahy, what 480 00:30:30,010 --> 00:30:30,450 Speaker 2: would it be? 481 00:30:30,910 --> 00:30:37,790 Speaker 3: Well, probably the timer fragment. Because the timer fragment, here's 482 00:30:37,810 --> 00:30:41,130 Speaker 3: the first problem. We thought it was that cell in Germany. 483 00:30:42,370 --> 00:30:46,690 Speaker 3: The biggest argument against that cell doing it, the device 484 00:30:46,750 --> 00:30:49,900 Speaker 3: that they built, if in fact it went on the 485 00:30:49,940 --> 00:30:53,020 Speaker 3: plane in Germany, because the flight itself actually had left 486 00:30:53,060 --> 00:30:57,780 Speaker 3: from Frankfurt, the first plane. They changed aircraft, but the 487 00:30:57,820 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 3: same flight number, 103, actually left Frankfurt. But if that 488 00:31:01,540 --> 00:31:04,770 Speaker 3: bomb had been put out in Frankfurt, which we first thought, 489 00:31:05,710 --> 00:31:09,370 Speaker 3: it would have exploded between Frankfurt and London. And we 490 00:31:09,430 --> 00:31:11,870 Speaker 3: couldn't explain that. And all of a sudden we get 491 00:31:11,910 --> 00:31:15,210 Speaker 3: a baggage record that shows there's a lone bag coming 492 00:31:15,310 --> 00:31:19,650 Speaker 3: from Air Malta, came to Frankfurt, goes on Pan Am 493 00:31:19,650 --> 00:31:22,969 Speaker 3: 103 in Frankfurt, Pan Am 103 in London. And we're going, 494 00:31:22,990 --> 00:31:26,370 Speaker 3: wait a minute. If it's the Palestinian timer, it should 495 00:31:26,390 --> 00:31:30,230 Speaker 3: have blown up between Malta and Frankfurt. And we couldn't 496 00:31:30,290 --> 00:31:34,940 Speaker 3: explain that. The fragment of timer that's blasted into the clothing, 497 00:31:34,980 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 3: which looks like a one on it, was a straight timer. 498 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 3: Time and altitude meant nothing, which was the Palestinian fragment. 499 00:31:46,690 --> 00:31:50,090 Speaker 3: a Palestinian timer, but this was a straight timer. You 500 00:31:50,130 --> 00:31:53,050 Speaker 3: set it for a specific time, it goes off 10 501 00:31:53,050 --> 00:31:56,210 Speaker 3: hours from now, 12 hours from now, whatever they set it. 502 00:31:56,730 --> 00:32:01,850 Speaker 3: And of course, that led us to the company in 503 00:32:01,950 --> 00:32:07,050 Speaker 3: Switzerland that only manufactured 20 of these as prototypes. All 504 00:32:07,050 --> 00:32:12,390 Speaker 3: 20 were delivered to the Libyan Intelligence Service, and Mugrahi 505 00:32:12,450 --> 00:32:15,770 Speaker 3: was connected He actually had an office in that company 506 00:32:15,990 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 3: in Switzerland. These things, it brought together a bunch of 507 00:32:20,820 --> 00:32:23,780 Speaker 3: little fragments of things that we knew, but we couldn't 508 00:32:23,820 --> 00:32:27,220 Speaker 3: tie them together. But it was that timer fragment that 509 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:28,770 Speaker 3: was key that led us to that. 510 00:32:30,150 --> 00:32:31,410 Speaker 1: It's so fascinating. 511 00:32:32,450 --> 00:32:37,910 Speaker 2: So in 2001, the Scottish court in the Netherlands convicted 512 00:32:38,490 --> 00:32:42,350 Speaker 2: McGrahy and acquitted FEMA. So what was your reaction to 513 00:32:42,370 --> 00:32:45,860 Speaker 2: the verdicts, and how did you interpret the different outcomes? 514 00:32:46,390 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 3: Well, I got a telephone call early in the morning, 515 00:32:51,860 --> 00:32:53,900 Speaker 3: and I was told, if you want to come to 516 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,180 Speaker 3: the verdict, you have to get on a plane this morning. 517 00:32:57,060 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 3: So I got on a plane. I flew to Amsterdam, 518 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,420 Speaker 3: I got picked up, went to the court, and literally 519 00:33:04,530 --> 00:33:07,730 Speaker 3: by the time I got a shower and shaved and 520 00:33:07,770 --> 00:33:10,270 Speaker 3: put a suit on, it was five minutes, 10 minutes 521 00:33:10,310 --> 00:33:14,850 Speaker 3: to 11. Court came in at 11 o'clock. Stuart Henderson 522 00:33:14,890 --> 00:33:18,770 Speaker 3: was there, he was retired. One of my other counterparts, 523 00:33:18,810 --> 00:33:21,790 Speaker 3: Phil Reed, who had been responsible for much of the 524 00:33:21,850 --> 00:33:27,170 Speaker 3: Malta investigation, was there, he had come from Alaska. we 525 00:33:27,210 --> 00:33:30,550 Speaker 3: were literally holding hands because it was, we were tensed 526 00:33:30,610 --> 00:33:33,390 Speaker 3: up because we felt that, you know, all this work 527 00:33:33,490 --> 00:33:37,580 Speaker 3: we did full time for three or four years, full time, 528 00:33:37,660 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 3: nothing but this. And all of a sudden we're going 529 00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:45,010 Speaker 3: to be judged by this group, these three judges. And 530 00:33:45,370 --> 00:33:47,630 Speaker 3: they said very quickly, they said, how do you find 531 00:33:47,670 --> 00:33:51,350 Speaker 3: about McGraw? Now the film did it backwards again for 532 00:33:51,410 --> 00:33:56,140 Speaker 3: dramatic purposes. It shows the acquittal first. But when they 533 00:33:56,180 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 3: said McGraw, he was guilty, it was like, yeah, we 534 00:34:00,100 --> 00:34:05,050 Speaker 3: got it. I mean, we have been exonerated of the 535 00:34:05,090 --> 00:34:09,530 Speaker 3: criticisms of the investigation. These judges looked at the evidence, 536 00:34:09,550 --> 00:34:12,930 Speaker 3: they examined the witnesses, and they agree with our finding 537 00:34:12,969 --> 00:34:14,950 Speaker 3: that he did it. But then on the other hand, 538 00:34:15,010 --> 00:34:18,549 Speaker 3: they included FEMA. And we had a lot of discussions 539 00:34:18,750 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 3: about that over lunch. And we said, how can that be? 540 00:34:24,260 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 3: the problem was one of the things that was discovered 541 00:34:27,530 --> 00:34:31,089 Speaker 3: was FEMA's diary. In his diary, he had a notation, 542 00:34:31,570 --> 00:34:35,810 Speaker 3: get tags from air Malta. Okay. Get tags the week 543 00:34:35,870 --> 00:34:38,850 Speaker 3: before the bombing. So he had been the station manager 544 00:34:38,870 --> 00:34:42,230 Speaker 3: for Libyan Arab airlines. Libyans are not allowed to have 545 00:34:42,270 --> 00:34:46,030 Speaker 3: luggage tags. They wouldn't allow it, but he gets tags. 546 00:34:46,350 --> 00:34:49,710 Speaker 3: He gets luggage tags. He gave an excuse that those 547 00:34:49,730 --> 00:34:52,089 Speaker 3: tags are all over the place. Anybody can get them. But, 548 00:34:52,380 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 3: But Pierre Salinger asked him that question. But he never 549 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 3: was asked, why did you have a notation to get 550 00:34:58,260 --> 00:35:01,130 Speaker 3: those tags? He later made up something in a book 551 00:35:01,210 --> 00:35:03,250 Speaker 3: about he was getting ready to go into the luggage 552 00:35:03,310 --> 00:35:09,270 Speaker 3: tag making business. Some answer against crap. But he was 553 00:35:09,350 --> 00:35:15,070 Speaker 3: acquitted because the diary entries could not be corroborated. Scott's law, 554 00:35:15,610 --> 00:35:21,210 Speaker 3: very different from U.S. law. The corroboration was very important. 555 00:35:21,670 --> 00:35:25,590 Speaker 3: And because the diary could not be corroborated as being his, 556 00:35:26,630 --> 00:35:31,170 Speaker 3: they decided that he would be acquitted. And the evidence 557 00:35:31,230 --> 00:35:36,690 Speaker 3: against him was not strong. It was circumstantial. He was 558 00:35:36,950 --> 00:35:41,009 Speaker 3: present at the airport that morning. But that, again, that 559 00:35:41,070 --> 00:35:44,210 Speaker 3: was circumstantial. We think he was. But was he really? 560 00:35:44,290 --> 00:35:47,180 Speaker 3: We don't know. We know that McGraw, he was there 561 00:35:47,450 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 3: using the false passports. We're not 100% sure other than 562 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:57,060 Speaker 3: FEMA got a telephone call from McGrahy at 7-Eleven in 563 00:35:57,100 --> 00:36:00,380 Speaker 3: the morning. We think what he said was, pick me up. 564 00:36:00,460 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 3: I'm ready to go to the airport. But that's speculation. 565 00:36:04,620 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: Right, right. 566 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,460 Speaker 2: And he still, he maintained his innocence. And I mean, 567 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,180 Speaker 2: but as evidence of what you just said, they just lie. 568 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:14,879 Speaker 2: So they just make things up. 569 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,580 Speaker 3: He died about two months ago. 570 00:36:18,750 --> 00:36:19,370 Speaker 1: Oh, he did. 571 00:36:20,070 --> 00:36:23,630 Speaker 3: FEMA just passed away. Yes. I don't do it much anymore, 572 00:36:23,690 --> 00:36:26,590 Speaker 3: but I think people still had eyes on him, whether 573 00:36:26,660 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 3: it's the media. I don't know who else. I've been 574 00:36:30,180 --> 00:36:33,980 Speaker 3: retired 24 years. But I think there's probably people who 575 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,460 Speaker 3: still have eyes on him because there is still a 576 00:36:36,540 --> 00:36:41,460 Speaker 3: warrant outstanding for him in the United States. Wow. I'm 577 00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 3: assuming it's probably been dismissed, but I don't know that either. 578 00:36:58,290 --> 00:37:02,260 Speaker 2: So some relatives of the victims have questioned the official, 579 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 2: the official account of who was responsible. How, how do 580 00:37:05,739 --> 00:37:09,180 Speaker 2: you respond to families who have examined the case, but, 581 00:37:09,540 --> 00:37:11,620 Speaker 2: you know, reached different conclusions? 582 00:37:13,340 --> 00:37:15,790 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I know a lot of the criticism 583 00:37:15,890 --> 00:37:20,509 Speaker 3: comes from the British families, uh, American families that I 584 00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:24,750 Speaker 3: know of for the most part agree with what we 585 00:37:24,810 --> 00:37:30,330 Speaker 3: consider to be the official version. Um, In order for what, 586 00:37:30,890 --> 00:37:33,509 Speaker 3: and not to criticize the British families, I will never 587 00:37:33,630 --> 00:37:37,370 Speaker 3: criticize anybody that lost a family member or a friend 588 00:37:37,450 --> 00:37:40,540 Speaker 3: on Panhandle 103. You don't like what we did. You 589 00:37:40,580 --> 00:37:43,899 Speaker 3: don't like the government. You don't like, I don't, that's 590 00:37:43,980 --> 00:37:46,020 Speaker 3: up to you. You have the right to feel that way. 591 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,739 Speaker 3: But I've always felt that in the event that we 592 00:37:50,780 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 3: got it so totally wrong, that there would have to 593 00:37:54,380 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 3: have been a conspiracy. I go, okay. I guess I 594 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,620 Speaker 3: would have had to have been part of that conspiracy 595 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 3: to help manufacture evidence to lie about different things. I 596 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,569 Speaker 3: know the evidence probably as well as anybody. And I 597 00:38:09,620 --> 00:38:13,069 Speaker 3: know where it came from, how it got to us. 598 00:38:13,550 --> 00:38:17,109 Speaker 3: It was not manufactured. It was not made up. There 599 00:38:17,150 --> 00:38:21,580 Speaker 3: was no conspiracy that there's rumors about President Bush and 600 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,210 Speaker 3: Margaret Thatcher having a meeting about We need to get 601 00:38:25,450 --> 00:38:27,670 Speaker 3: Syria on our side so we can't look at that 602 00:38:27,730 --> 00:38:32,220 Speaker 3: Palestinian group anymore. All we did was follow the evidence. Now, 603 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 3: if they conspired about something, they forgot to tell us. 604 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 3: All we did was follow the evidence. And I believe, 605 00:38:39,980 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 3: as I have said many times, I can meet my 606 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,060 Speaker 3: maker with a good, clean heart and say, I did 607 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 3: what I was supposed to do. We followed the evidence. 608 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,169 Speaker 3: And I believe that. with every Scottish cop I worked with, 609 00:38:54,650 --> 00:38:57,810 Speaker 3: every FBI agent I worked with, and anybody in the 610 00:38:57,830 --> 00:39:01,779 Speaker 3: intelligence agencies, good people wanting to do the right thing. 611 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,380 Speaker 1: Wanting to do good work, yeah. 612 00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:08,240 Speaker 2: So then to that end, in 2003, 15 years after 613 00:39:08,260 --> 00:39:13,180 Speaker 2: the bombing, Libya formally accepted responsibility for the actions of 614 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,779 Speaker 2: its officials in connection with the bombing. What did that 615 00:39:15,820 --> 00:39:18,870 Speaker 2: development mean to you? And did it provide any sense 616 00:39:18,950 --> 00:39:20,070 Speaker 2: of closure? 617 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:22,660 Speaker 3: Closure is a word a lot of people use. Well, 618 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,649 Speaker 3: when that happens, I'll get closure. But I can tell 619 00:39:26,690 --> 00:39:30,820 Speaker 3: you just from my dealing with families that that for them, 620 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 3: I won't use her name, but she's in the process 621 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,259 Speaker 3: of reading something about Lockerbie. There's another book about to 622 00:39:38,300 --> 00:39:41,100 Speaker 3: be written about Lockerbie. And she told me she was 623 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,350 Speaker 3: reading it. She said, I'm having a hard time getting 624 00:39:44,390 --> 00:39:48,149 Speaker 3: through this. It was her brother who died. And she said, 625 00:39:48,930 --> 00:39:52,670 Speaker 3: This brought me back to 1988, reading all this again. 626 00:39:53,330 --> 00:39:55,969 Speaker 3: So you can say, well, there's been convictions and the 627 00:39:56,030 --> 00:40:00,290 Speaker 3: TV shows and all this. There is no real closure. 628 00:40:00,370 --> 00:40:03,709 Speaker 3: But I mean, I was always convinced. Gaddafi, he didn't 629 00:40:03,750 --> 00:40:05,670 Speaker 3: have to apologize. Now, I will tell you, this is 630 00:40:05,870 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 3: a humorous story. Gaddafi appeared at Georgetown via a Zoom, 631 00:40:11,940 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 3: pre-Zoom link years ago, in like 2007 or 8. And 632 00:40:14,660 --> 00:40:20,630 Speaker 3: I decided to go. And I was in a big auditorium, 633 00:40:20,690 --> 00:40:22,950 Speaker 3: and I got to see his face up on this screen. 634 00:40:23,550 --> 00:40:27,390 Speaker 3: And we were asked to submit questions in advance. And 635 00:40:27,489 --> 00:40:31,489 Speaker 3: I submitted a question. And I didn't get to ask it, 636 00:40:31,730 --> 00:40:35,109 Speaker 3: but a student got up and asked a question. They 637 00:40:35,180 --> 00:40:39,300 Speaker 3: selected my question. And I asked very simply. I said, 638 00:40:39,380 --> 00:40:43,940 Speaker 3: you know, Colonel Gaddafi, I try to be respectful. One 639 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,739 Speaker 3: of your agents has been found guilty of committing this atrocity. 640 00:40:50,070 --> 00:40:54,330 Speaker 3: when are you going to fully admit responsibility for carrying 641 00:40:54,410 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 3: out this attack? And when are you going to apologize 642 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 3: to the families? And he sat there and of course 643 00:41:02,140 --> 00:41:04,760 Speaker 3: the interpreter is doing it. And I remember he fidgeted 644 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,880 Speaker 3: with his glasses and he said, all he says to 645 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 3: this young man, my son, my son, Lockerbie has been adjudicated. 646 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,340 Speaker 3: It is a closed case. And some professor jumped up 647 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,009 Speaker 3: and said, hold on. And because the kid, And I 648 00:41:20,050 --> 00:41:22,610 Speaker 3: wouldn't blame him. He was 19 years old or something, 649 00:41:23,110 --> 00:41:25,710 Speaker 3: asking the question. He's talking to a head of state. Sure. 650 00:41:25,890 --> 00:41:28,850 Speaker 3: And some professor jumped up. I just sat there and watched. 651 00:41:28,870 --> 00:41:31,650 Speaker 3: Some professor got up and really tried to hold his 652 00:41:31,690 --> 00:41:35,630 Speaker 3: feet to the fire. Gaddafi wouldn't have any part of it. Wow. 653 00:41:36,050 --> 00:41:40,150 Speaker 3: Nobody should have died the way Gaddafi died. But nobody 654 00:41:40,170 --> 00:41:43,870 Speaker 3: should have died the way that those 270 many young 655 00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:48,150 Speaker 3: kids died, not having the ability to have a full life. 656 00:41:48,770 --> 00:41:53,430 Speaker 3: That's right. biggest regret that I have for them. And 657 00:41:54,330 --> 00:41:57,330 Speaker 3: I wish we'd been able to get more people. And 658 00:41:57,410 --> 00:41:59,390 Speaker 3: as you are probably aware, and I don't want to 659 00:41:59,410 --> 00:42:00,930 Speaker 3: talk about it at all, but there's going to be 660 00:42:00,989 --> 00:42:04,690 Speaker 3: another trial in the United States in January. 661 00:42:04,850 --> 00:42:06,450 Speaker 1: Yes, I am aware of that. 662 00:42:06,510 --> 00:42:10,879 Speaker 3: Right. I am hopeful that after almost 40 years, that 663 00:42:11,739 --> 00:42:16,720 Speaker 3: a lot more truth comes out and it's much clearer 664 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 3: to families and everybody else exactly what happened. 665 00:42:20,650 --> 00:42:22,310 Speaker 2: Can you tell us what, I mean, I know, but 666 00:42:22,350 --> 00:42:24,650 Speaker 2: can you tell us what that trial is in January? 667 00:42:24,670 --> 00:42:26,890 Speaker 2: It's January of next year of 2027, right? 668 00:42:26,910 --> 00:42:31,410 Speaker 3: Yeah, January 19th, I believe, or 20th is supposed to start. 669 00:42:32,430 --> 00:42:37,590 Speaker 3: And it is the trial of the suspected bomb maker, 670 00:42:37,690 --> 00:42:41,819 Speaker 3: the man that actually made the device. And he was 671 00:42:42,060 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 3: on our radar 35, 40 years ago. And the Libyan 672 00:42:44,620 --> 00:42:50,670 Speaker 3: government told us they had no idea at all who 673 00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:54,029 Speaker 3: he was. And I give a lot of credit to 674 00:42:54,090 --> 00:42:57,880 Speaker 3: Ken Dornstein, who lost his brother on Pan Am 103. 675 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,339 Speaker 3: He did the PBS show called My Brother's Bomber, which 676 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 3: if you've never watched it, absolutely incredible, spellbinding, tremendous. And 677 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 3: if you watch that, it will tell you everything you 678 00:43:12,739 --> 00:43:14,170 Speaker 3: need to know about the trial. 679 00:43:14,570 --> 00:43:16,969 Speaker 1: Oh, amazing. My Brother's Bomber, it's called? 680 00:43:17,310 --> 00:43:22,109 Speaker 3: My Brother's Bomber was on PBS. It's three hours. It's 681 00:43:22,170 --> 00:43:27,310 Speaker 3: a documentary. But Ken Dornstein went to Libya and knocked 682 00:43:27,410 --> 00:43:32,060 Speaker 3: on doors. Wow. So think about Ken Dornstein. He had 683 00:43:32,180 --> 00:43:35,500 Speaker 3: young kids. I'm just glad, you know, I got to 684 00:43:35,540 --> 00:43:38,020 Speaker 3: know him because of that. But I'm glad he didn't 685 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:39,420 Speaker 3: ask me to go with him because I think I 686 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,190 Speaker 3: might have said no. Yeah. I give him credit for it. 687 00:43:43,580 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 3: He did it before the overthrow of Gaddafi. So Gaddafi 688 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:52,840 Speaker 3: was still alive. It was done, I think it aired 689 00:43:53,500 --> 00:43:54,100 Speaker 3: in 2015. 690 00:43:54,100 --> 00:43:56,009 Speaker 1: That's pretty courageous. That's pretty bold. 691 00:43:56,750 --> 00:44:01,710 Speaker 3: But what he did helped lead to this current trial. Wow. 692 00:44:01,730 --> 00:44:02,510 Speaker 3: I'm 150% positive of that. 693 00:44:05,090 --> 00:44:07,410 Speaker 1: Wow, I will watch that. Okay, I could talk to 694 00:44:07,450 --> 00:44:09,870 Speaker 1: you for like hours. One more question. 695 00:44:10,010 --> 00:44:15,270 Speaker 2: It sounds like you're in touch with the families still. 696 00:44:15,350 --> 00:44:15,890 Speaker 3: Some, yes. 697 00:44:16,030 --> 00:44:16,850 Speaker 1: With some, yes? 698 00:44:18,730 --> 00:44:22,669 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, like everything else, they've all gotten, I mean, 699 00:44:22,930 --> 00:44:24,290 Speaker 3: I was always a young guy. I'm going to be 700 00:44:24,290 --> 00:44:27,049 Speaker 3: 80 on my next birthday. And a lot of the 701 00:44:27,110 --> 00:44:32,359 Speaker 3: family members are in their 80s, many of whom have died, 702 00:44:32,510 --> 00:44:37,250 Speaker 3: passed away. And it's life. I mean, I go to 703 00:44:37,290 --> 00:44:42,489 Speaker 3: the memorial service every year in Arlington in December. And 704 00:44:42,710 --> 00:44:46,469 Speaker 3: I see fewer and fewer and fewer people. Now, the 705 00:44:46,510 --> 00:44:51,060 Speaker 3: next generation is coming up. And I'm glad for that. 706 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:56,859 Speaker 3: I'm glad because we can't forget this happened. No. The 707 00:44:56,900 --> 00:45:01,339 Speaker 3: fact that their memories are, they are commemorated every year. 708 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:05,419 Speaker 3: I hope this happens again. After my great-great-grandchildren are dead. 709 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:09,219 Speaker 3: I hope they're still commemorating when nobody even knows about it. 710 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:14,140 Speaker 3: Because somebody said, if you remember them, they're not really gone. 711 00:45:14,340 --> 00:45:14,970 Speaker 1: They're not gone. 712 00:45:15,590 --> 00:45:19,790 Speaker 3: And that's all I can say. I have great respect 713 00:45:19,830 --> 00:45:22,170 Speaker 3: for the families and some of the things that they did. 714 00:45:22,450 --> 00:45:26,290 Speaker 3: And I never even mentioned Katherine Turman, who is another... 715 00:45:26,670 --> 00:45:27,930 Speaker 3: Unbelievable person. 716 00:45:28,430 --> 00:45:30,489 Speaker 1: That's I know I wanted to, let's talk about her 717 00:45:30,550 --> 00:45:31,009 Speaker 1: really quick. 718 00:45:31,050 --> 00:45:34,370 Speaker 2: Merritt Weaver plays her in the series, who is another 719 00:45:34,570 --> 00:45:37,610 Speaker 2: one Merritt Weaver. If you're listening, you should be in 720 00:45:37,690 --> 00:45:39,609 Speaker 2: every movie and TV show ever made for. 721 00:45:39,510 --> 00:45:40,350 Speaker 1: The rest of time. 722 00:45:41,710 --> 00:45:42,770 Speaker 3: She did a great job. 723 00:45:42,830 --> 00:45:43,430 Speaker 1: She really did. 724 00:45:43,510 --> 00:45:45,629 Speaker 2: But can you just talk a little bit about your 725 00:45:45,670 --> 00:45:49,049 Speaker 2: relationship with her, with the, with Catherine? 726 00:45:49,140 --> 00:45:55,250 Speaker 3: Yes. Well, the Merritt Weaver's portrayal of Catherine is, It 727 00:45:55,969 --> 00:46:03,420 Speaker 3: was unbelievably good. But Catherine Turman, I never met until 1997. Oh. 728 00:46:04,780 --> 00:46:08,759 Speaker 3: So what the show portrayed, they wanted to show what 729 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:13,140 Speaker 3: she did. Now, Catherine did those things, but she had 730 00:46:13,180 --> 00:46:15,300 Speaker 3: met some of the families when she worked for Senator 731 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,040 Speaker 3: Fines in Pennsylvania. But when she became the head of 732 00:46:19,100 --> 00:46:24,799 Speaker 3: the Victim Services Division at DOJ, Justice Department, I was 733 00:46:24,860 --> 00:46:27,660 Speaker 3: in charge of victim services for the FBI in my 734 00:46:27,700 --> 00:46:31,660 Speaker 3: position at that time. We got together. We both had 735 00:46:31,700 --> 00:46:34,500 Speaker 3: the same thing. And she explained to me the laws 736 00:46:34,540 --> 00:46:36,700 Speaker 3: that require you to do these things that the FBI 737 00:46:36,739 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 3: was not doing. All these things that we're supposed to 738 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,140 Speaker 3: be doing for victims. And I told her about Lockerbie. 739 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,560 Speaker 3: She knew some of it. But I told her about 740 00:46:45,260 --> 00:46:47,910 Speaker 3: our State Department let him down. The FBI let him down. 741 00:46:47,969 --> 00:46:50,290 Speaker 3: We all, the only people that really were good to 742 00:46:50,350 --> 00:46:53,339 Speaker 3: them were the Scottish cops. And this guy, this townspeople, 743 00:46:53,420 --> 00:46:57,020 Speaker 3: which was well shown, that was all factual. All those 744 00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:01,310 Speaker 3: things about washing and ironing the clothes. That is absolutely true. 745 00:47:01,710 --> 00:47:03,310 Speaker 1: And it's heartbreaking. 746 00:47:03,930 --> 00:47:06,489 Speaker 3: But Catherine told me, she said, if there's going to 747 00:47:06,510 --> 00:47:08,880 Speaker 3: be a trial, I'm going to do everything I can 748 00:47:09,300 --> 00:47:12,779 Speaker 3: to help those victims. And she did. And Catherine, then 749 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,370 Speaker 3: eventually Bob Mueller hired the FBI agent. She ran the 750 00:47:16,410 --> 00:47:20,010 Speaker 3: first victim services division at the FBI. And she did 751 00:47:20,030 --> 00:47:23,240 Speaker 3: that until she retired about five years ago. And Katherine 752 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,540 Speaker 3: Turman is a saint. So if Katherine ever hears this, 753 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,820 Speaker 3: she knows how I feel about her. She's a saint. 754 00:47:30,260 --> 00:47:33,810 Speaker 3: She's one of the most unbelievable human beings on our planet. 755 00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:36,850 Speaker 1: Oh, I love hearing that. It really does. 756 00:47:36,910 --> 00:47:40,710 Speaker 2: I love hearing that. She's very well portrayed in the series. 757 00:47:40,750 --> 00:47:42,730 Speaker 2: I hope that she feels good about it if she 758 00:47:42,790 --> 00:47:43,160 Speaker 2: sees it. 759 00:47:43,510 --> 00:47:45,750 Speaker 3: She did. She did. She and I have talked. Yeah, 760 00:47:45,790 --> 00:47:49,920 Speaker 3: we talked. I talk to her on a regular basis. Oh, nice. 761 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,000 Speaker 3: She lives in Tennessee and we don't live close to 762 00:47:53,020 --> 00:47:56,860 Speaker 3: each other, but we have been friends for 30 years 763 00:47:57,060 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 3: and she's just a remarkable, although she wouldn't beat my 764 00:48:01,060 --> 00:48:07,360 Speaker 3: office door down like, She sent me a note after 765 00:48:07,410 --> 00:48:09,580 Speaker 3: she saw the show and she said, I think I 766 00:48:09,660 --> 00:48:16,740 Speaker 3: owe you an apology. We laughed. Catherine is a superb 767 00:48:16,780 --> 00:48:18,100 Speaker 3: human being, the best. 768 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:19,340 Speaker 1: Oh, wow. 769 00:48:19,910 --> 00:48:23,830 Speaker 2: Well, I can't, Dick, this has been so fascinating and 770 00:48:24,030 --> 00:48:29,149 Speaker 2: you're just a wealth of information and charming. And you 771 00:48:29,190 --> 00:48:31,170 Speaker 2: battle Patrick in the handsome department. 772 00:48:31,250 --> 00:48:32,609 Speaker 1: So I'm going to go with that. 773 00:48:33,690 --> 00:48:34,870 Speaker 3: Well, thank you for that. 774 00:48:35,090 --> 00:48:38,170 Speaker 2: The Bombing of Pan Am 103 is streaming on Netflix. 775 00:48:38,630 --> 00:48:43,180 Speaker 2: The series is really compelling and so well done. And Dick, 776 00:48:43,219 --> 00:48:46,120 Speaker 2: I'm so grateful to you for your time and for 777 00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:50,000 Speaker 2: all of the incredibly important work you've done in your career. 778 00:48:50,020 --> 00:48:51,100 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 779 00:48:51,739 --> 00:48:53,180 Speaker 3: Well, thank you. It was wonderful to meet you.