1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. Holmes present Killer Thriller with your 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: host Alisa Donovan. 3 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 2: Hey everyone, Alisa Donovan here, and this is killer Thriller. 4 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 2: What if the person committing some of the most horrific 5 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 2: crimes imaginable was also living what looked like a completely 6 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 2: normal life. Well, today we are talking about the BTK 7 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: killer short for Bind Torture Kill, who terrorized Wichita, Kansas 8 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 2: for decades, murdering ten people between nineteen seventy four and 9 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one before going silent and then re emerging 10 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 2: years later in a way no one saw coming. This 11 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: is the story we see play out in the movie 12 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 2: The Hunt for the BTK Killer. And today we are 13 00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 2: going very deep because our guest didn't just study this case, 14 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 2: she had direct contact with the man behind it. Forensic 15 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:10,479 Speaker 2: psychologist Catherine Ramsland corresponded with Dennis Raider for years, gaining 16 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 2: rare insight into his thinking and how he hid in 17 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,199 Speaker 2: plane sight. Doctor Ramsland, thank you so much for being 18 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 2: with me today. 19 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 3: Great to be here, looking forward to this. 20 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 2: I am really First of all, I'm very much in 21 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 2: awe of your career and what you have done with 22 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 2: your life. It's pretty extraordinary. And impressive and fascinating to me. 23 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 2: So we're going to talk today obviously about the BTA killer. 24 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 2: So for people who may not know the full story, 25 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 2: what makes the BTKK so uniquely disturbing? 26 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 3: Well, what's disturbing about someone like Dennis Raider, who murdered 27 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 3: people between nineteen seventy four nineteen ninety one and which 28 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 3: talk Kansas and got away with it thirty years is 29 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 3: that he passes it completely normal person. He had a family, 30 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 3: he was highly involved in his church, he was president 31 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 3: of his church congregation, and he had a job. He 32 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 3: was in his community, and even when he was finally arrested, 33 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 3: people told the cops, you have the wrong guy. It 34 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 3: isn't him. So the way someone like that can pass 35 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 3: as normal while they're stalking, burglarizing and looking for someone 36 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 3: to kill is I think the scariest thing. 37 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's terrified. 38 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 2: We cover a lot of very disturbing things on this 39 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: podcast and really talk about sort of the human part 40 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: of it and human behavior and all of those things. 41 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: And this is truly one of the most diabolical to me. 42 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 2: And So you corresponded with Dennis Raider for over a decade. 43 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 1: How did that come about. How did you actually meet him? 44 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: How did you get him to allow you to do this? 45 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 3: What happened is when he was caught in two thousand 46 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 3: and five, a woman approached him and wanted to write 47 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 3: his book, and she kind of got into the news 48 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 3: and whatnot, and so I knew who she was. And 49 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 3: five years passed, so I was twenty ten and no book. 50 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 3: So I saw her on Facebook and dis asked her, 51 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 3: whatever happened to your book with Dennis Rader? And she 52 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 3: knew who I was, and she knew she wasn't going 53 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 3: to actually write it, so she asked me to come 54 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 3: in and take over. Now that's easier than it sounds, 55 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 3: because I had to be I had to pass muster 56 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 3: with the victims' relatives, the surviving relatives, because they had 57 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 3: formed a legal kind of adventure that they had approval 58 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 3: because he had signed his life rights over to them. 59 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: Oh interesting. 60 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 3: It turned into a long process me telling them what 61 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 3: I aimed to do, which was and I would only 62 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 3: do it under these circumstances, which was to write a 63 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 3: book that would benefit criminology, forensic psychology, and law enforcement. 64 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 3: So he can tell his story his way, but it's 65 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 3: going to be guided by me toward my ends, and 66 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 3: they wanted that. They had turned down a few other people, 67 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 3: but they were interested in that. If there had to 68 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 3: be a book out there, they wanted it to be 69 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 3: that one. And then they get, you know, a large 70 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 3: percentage of the proceeds too. 71 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: Right, because I'm sure they want to be careful of 72 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: not sort of inflating this criminal's ego, right, because so 73 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: much of this seems to be about narcissism and. 74 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 3: You're not going to get past that. The ego is there. 75 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 3: So either you have to do, you know, shut him 76 00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 3: down altogether, which we really can't do, or use it 77 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 3: in a way that's to our benefit and not just 78 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 3: his right. 79 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 2: Right, So he Dennis killed over a span of decades, 80 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 2: but and then he just stopped. 81 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: Is that very How unusual is that. 82 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 3: He didn't just stop, He didn't succeed, big difference. The 83 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 3: way he puts it, it's like a fisherman goes out 84 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,559 Speaker 3: and doesn't always catch, but they go out to catch. 85 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 3: His life circumstances had changed. He didn't have as many 86 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 3: opportunities to be out and about without checking in with 87 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 3: his wife and kids and whatnot. He was busy with 88 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 3: other kinds of obligations, so he didn't have as many opportunities, 89 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 3: but he still had them. He sent me a list 90 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 3: of fifty five projects. These were all people he had stalked, watched, 91 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 3: taken notes on, looked for opportunities to get into their 92 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 3: house and potentially kill them. So there were opportunities that 93 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 3: just didn't work out. 94 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 2: I'm so speechless over how kind of clinical he is 95 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 2: in terms of talking about these things, like words like 96 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 2: projects and things like that. Is that common or is 97 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 2: that specific to him? 98 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 3: Well, the word is specific to him, But it's very 99 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 3: common to dehumanize your victims because in the perception of 100 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 3: especially sexually compelled serial killers, the person the victim is 101 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 3: just upon in their game. Essentially, they once they have 102 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 3: identified that this is the person they're going to go after, 103 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 3: now that person is not a person to them. It 104 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 3: is their target, is their goal. It's something that they 105 00:06:55,760 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 3: need to to do, and so they get dehumanized. Project 106 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 3: you know, accomplishes that goal. But they were named like 107 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 3: Project Cookie and Project lights Out, and they were named 108 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 3: for certain features because it helped him to remember them. 109 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 2: So that's Can you talk a little bit about what 110 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 2: led him to finally getting caught. 111 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 3: He had been He already knew how to use computers. 112 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 3: It's false for people to think that he was just inept. 113 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 3: And he had asked a cop that he knew was 114 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:38,559 Speaker 3: involved in learning digital stuff. And this is very early 115 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 3: in the process for law enforcemental they really played a 116 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 3: lot of ketchup in the digital arena. And so he 117 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 3: when he asked him, can you trace an anonymous email? 118 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 3: And the cop erroneously told him no. That cop has 119 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 3: written an article about how he inadvertently helped with this process. 120 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 3: Because then Dennis Raider got the idea. What he had 121 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 3: been doing is he'd been writing these cat and mouse 122 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 3: things that he was sending to the newspapers and the cops, 123 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 3: the task Force, and he had been taking him to 124 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 3: a copier and then copying the copies and copying the copies, 125 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 3: and which is very time consuming. He didn't have that 126 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,239 Speaker 3: kind of time. He knew how to use a computer. 127 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 3: So he asked in the newspaper ad to the task force, 128 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 3: can you trace me if I send you a disc 129 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 3: with my instructions. And they couldn't believe that he was 130 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 3: really asking this, and so they gave him a message 131 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 3: back in a newspaper ad that he'd be safe, and 132 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 3: he wasn't. They were able to trace him. But I 133 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 3: will say this, had he used a brand new disc, 134 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 3: what he did was he used a disc that he 135 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 3: had taken notes on as the church president, and he 136 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 3: used the church's computer. Had he gone into a library 137 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 3: with a brand new disc unopened, and I think he 138 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 3: would have not been caught. 139 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: Wow. 140 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 2: So is there any part of that that you think 141 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 2: was intentional or no, it's subconscious or not. 142 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 3: They definitely did not want to It's a myth that 143 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 3: serial killers want to be caught. No, they don't. They 144 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 3: want to keep doing what they're doing. 145 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 2: So do you think do the why do some of 146 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: them want recognition and others try to stay hidden or 147 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 2: do they all want recognition? 148 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 3: Well, I mean we're talking about over five thousand documents 149 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 3: serial killers. I couldn't possibly generally generally answer why do 150 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 3: some It depends on the person, depends on if they're narcissistic, 151 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 3: It depends on if they if they're aim like some 152 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 3: of the kids today who want to be serial killers, 153 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 3: who aim to do it, of course they want recognition 154 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 3: because they set out to identify as a serial killer. 155 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 3: So that's one thing. 156 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: Wait, is this a thing like people like in. 157 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 3: Thanks to social media? Yes, oh my god, you're kidding me, 158 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 3: not kidding. 159 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: So there are like groups or something that is that groups. 160 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 3: There are kids who just find it. They feel like losers, 161 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 3: and this is a way to get attention. They look 162 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 3: at specific types of murders, often mass murderers or school 163 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 3: shooters or serial killers. They have special heroes among those 164 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 3: groups that they want to emulate. And yeah, so it's 165 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 3: it's a thing for sure. 166 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, and that's I mean, I have a thirteen 167 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: year old daughter, so all this, I'm everything terrifies me, 168 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 2: like literally every guys, if I think about it too much, 169 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 2: I will never ever sleep again. Let's talk about your 170 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: your first impression of Dennis when you met him, Like, 171 00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 2: what was what do you remember most well? 172 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 3: By the time I was I live on the East Coast, 173 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 3: he's in which or actually El Dorado Prison, So by 174 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 3: the time I got to actually visit him, we already 175 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 3: had been talking on the phone and playing chess because 176 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 3: we were going through this whole legal process, which took 177 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 3: some time. And then I didn't really want to visit 178 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 3: him till I had sold the book, because you know, 179 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 3: you get some money up front for your expenses and 180 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: things like that, so we I already felt pretty familiar 181 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 3: with him. And then in a prison like this, which 182 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 3: is like a maximum security you're in a booth. He's 183 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 3: in a booth. You talk through a monitor. You don't 184 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 3: talk face to face. 185 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 4: Oh really, you don't. 186 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 3: It's not like on TV shows that show that they 187 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 3: got plastic or glass between them. No, you don't have that. 188 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 3: You are. It's very much filtered, and it's a crappy monitor, frankly, 189 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 3: so you don't get a real good sense of them. 190 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 3: But there was an interesting thing that happened. He wasn't 191 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 3: he knew I was coming to Witchita. He wasn't sure 192 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 3: if I was going to be able to get arranged 193 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 3: to get into the prison, so he didn't know I 194 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 3: was coming for sure. And he was brought into his 195 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 3: booth and you know, all in shackles and with the 196 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 3: guards all over it. He's kind of doing this Hannibal 197 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 3: elect you what do you think I'm Hannibal Elector, And 198 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 3: he's kind of really gruff and everything. And then he 199 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 3: looked in the monitor and saw that I was in 200 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 3: the other room and immediately just switch so fast to pleasant. Oh, 201 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 3: how was your trip, I'm so glad that you made it, 202 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 3: blah blah blah. And the switch in his ability to 203 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 3: you know, pivot from this nasty gruff pose he's putting 204 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 3: on for the guards to this pleasant demeanor for me 205 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: was so fast that that showed me a lot about 206 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 3: his ability. And now he actually has a name for this, 207 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 3: and I think is a very good name, cubing. If 208 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 3: you think about a cube with the multiple sides, and 209 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 3: you have access to all sides, you can just pivot 210 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 3: to whichever one you face you need for a given circumstance, right, 211 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 3: And I think that's a lot better than the idea 212 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 3: of compartmentalizing just like different compartments, because these are all integrated. 213 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 3: But when you're turning a face to someone like good father, church, president, 214 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 3: serial killer, they're right there, right at your hand. When 215 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 3: I saw that kind of switch, the wickness of it, 216 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 3: I realized that that's how he does it. 217 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: Wow, and not just him. 218 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 3: I think a lot of serial killers operate like this. 219 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. I mean I was going to say, you know, 220 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: as as humans, we kind of all do that to 221 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: some degree. 222 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 2: Yes, perhaps, right, we're different with our teachers than we 223 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 2: are with our parents or our friends or you know, 224 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 2: as we're going out, but obviously to a very different degree. 225 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 3: I mean, if you you know, if you're living a contradiction, 226 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 3: let's say, I mean, let's say it's somebody who's having 227 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 3: an affair and you know they're caught. Generally there's this 228 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 3: kind of moral dilemmaa dilemma that operates and slows down 229 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 3: the process. And right in interact together with them, there's no 230 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 3: moral dilemma at all. The right's a contradiction. It's fine 231 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 3: with them. They have no sense of identity that has integrity, 232 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 3: you know, or consistency. That doesn't matter to them. What 233 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 3: matters to them is getting what they want right, So 234 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 3: they don't have that kind of hesitation, and which is 235 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 3: which I think is very interesting. It is a human ability, 236 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 3: but they have honed it to work for. 237 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 4: Them, right. 238 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 2: You know, this span had a family, had a job, 239 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 2: had the routine, had all of these very typical things 240 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: that seemed quite in depth. 241 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: It wasn't just like he was kind of on the 242 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: surface of that. 243 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 2: He was engaged with a lot of people in the community. 244 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 2: And I mean, how how do they do that, like, 245 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: how do you lead that kind of a double life? 246 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 3: The operative word seems in depth. It is not you 247 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 3: can engage without deep feeling because you're acting right. It's 248 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 3: it's a lot of different roles they take on, and 249 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 3: they can make it seem very believable. But you know, 250 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 3: like let's Ted Bundy for example, he had a girlfriend, 251 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 3: but then you go up with somebody else, right, and 252 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 3: then you go back to the girlfriend. 253 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 2: Right. 254 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 3: None of that mattered to him. He wanted what he 255 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 3: wanted and he wanted now. And it's very infantile when 256 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 3: you think about it. Yes, you know, I'm the center. 257 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 3: I'll do what I want and you will meet my needs. 258 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 2: Right there seems to me about a lot of these 259 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 2: sorts of people that they are like like like baby like, 260 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: like like babies about it, like sort of you know, whiny, 261 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: I need what I. 262 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 3: Need rested development? 263 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 4: I s yes, yes it is. 264 00:16:58,000 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 265 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. So are there actually warning signs for people like this? 266 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 3: It certainly can't tell by the look in their eye, 267 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 3: which I've heard many police officers say they're wrong about that, 268 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,360 Speaker 3: But there can be I'm not going to say there 269 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 3: are signals. There can be like Dennis raider he was. 270 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 3: His wife caught him writing notes that misspelled words the 271 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 3: same way BTK did. But here's the thing, there's a 272 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 3: there's a cognitive disadvantage and people who are close to 273 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 3: one of these killers is that they will spin it 274 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 3: to the most benign interpretation. And he said, when she said, 275 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,479 Speaker 3: you spell words the same way that BTK does in 276 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 3: his newspaper, in the things of the newspaper, and he said, well, 277 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 3: we were probably raised in the same educational system with bonics. 278 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 3: There's something like some stupid thing. But is going to 279 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 3: be prepared to accept that because who is thinking they're 280 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 3: married to a serial killer of course, father or the 281 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 3: child or you know. 282 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 4: Of course, there. 283 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 3: Is a cognitive disadvantage for family members and spouses because 284 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 3: they are going to just automatically give as much room. 285 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: Yes, as much leeway and sure. 286 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, unless that person is very abusive like Keith jessperson 287 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 3: for example, he was an abusive guy and his daughter 288 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 3: famously has you know, done a lot of TV shows 289 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 3: and whatnot about him, and you know, something like that. 290 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 3: But just because their abusive doesn't make them murderers by 291 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 3: any means, So that is not necessarily a red flag. 292 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 3: But it really is case to case, and typically you're 293 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 3: going to be catching them in lies and and you know, inconsistencies, 294 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 3: and they'll be absent when these things happen. And you know, 295 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 3: so if you wanted to look for a pattern, you 296 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 3: probably could see it, but typically they don't. 297 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 4: Right. 298 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: What else did you learn during your meetings with him? 299 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 3: Lots? 300 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: Event give me something. 301 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 3: I've wrote a whole book about it. 302 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know, you know. 303 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 3: Just talking about how can I basically all American boy? 304 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 3: He was the oldest of four brothers and raised both 305 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 3: grandparents were intact, Both sets of grandparents were intact. They 306 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,719 Speaker 3: were on farms, so he had this kind of all 307 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 3: American springing, right, you know, there wasn't his parents were together. 308 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 3: What was going on? How did this happen? So one 309 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 3: of the reasons I wanted to work with him is 310 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 3: that he just did not fit the formulas that had 311 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 3: kind of come to us side of it from the 312 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 3: nineteen nineties of the this notion that serial killers have 313 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 3: always have been abused or traumatized or head injuries or whatever. 314 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 3: You know, there are all these these ideas that he 315 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 3: didn't fit, and I thought that, so I want to 316 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 3: find out how can someone like this evolve into a 317 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 3: person who wants to be a serial killer? And as 318 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 3: I went along, I could I could begin to see 319 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 3: the ways he was intrigued with certain things, like he 320 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 3: liked bondage self bondage. He liked to tie himself up 321 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 3: with ropes and things that was exciting. It was in 322 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 3: part was it was scary the cowboy and Indian games, 323 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 3: for example, when he would be tied up, he'd be scared, 324 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 3: and then that would be arousing. But for another kid 325 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 3: it could just be so scary they never want to 326 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 3: go near a rope again. Right. It's about perception. And 327 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 3: as this began to become a pleasurable thing to him, 328 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 3: he started looking for things, and when he was about fourteen, 329 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,120 Speaker 3: he grabbed a True Detective magazine that was under his 330 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 3: father the driver's seat of his father's car that featured 331 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 3: Harvey Glatman's victims. Harvey Glatman in the nineteen fifties had 332 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 3: been a serial killer who had enticed young women to 333 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 3: allow him to tie them up because they thought they 334 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 3: were going to be on the cover of a True 335 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 3: Detective magazine. They were inspiring models, and so yes, they're 336 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,360 Speaker 3: going to allow him to tie them up because they 337 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 3: think he's going to photograph them for these magazines. Turns 338 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 3: out they were on the cover, but not because they 339 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 3: were models, because once he had them under his control, 340 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 3: he killed them and he told them he was going 341 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 3: to kill them so he could get that expression on 342 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 3: their face of absolute terror. And when Raiders saw that 343 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 3: he was around fourteen, that was so exciting. He wanted 344 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 3: to replicate that. He wanted to see that expression some 345 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 3: woman looking at him that way. 346 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: Was he able to articulate that to you? Yeah? 347 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely said that. Yes. Wow. Part of it 348 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 3: came from being humiliated five females, his mother, his teachers, 349 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 3: and girls always made him feel off balanced, and he 350 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 3: didn't like that feeling of being humiliated. So this idea 351 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 3: of binding them and having them look to him as 352 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 3: dominant was exciting and became part of his fantasy. He 353 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 3: started drawing girl traps. You know, in his teenage years 354 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 3: he would look at Dudley do write cartoons with the 355 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 3: hell being tied to the track right, but you know 356 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 3: at Dudley doesn't come, the girls get right over in 357 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 3: his fantasy, Oh my. 358 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: God, did he ever show any remorse? 359 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 3: Depends on what day you catch him on. Really he's 360 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 3: a spin doctor. I mean, if you were to write 361 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 3: to him and Meg it seemed like that that's what 362 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 3: you wanted to see. He'll show that to you. He'll 363 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 3: study the Bible with you, He'll do, you know, whatever 364 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 3: it takes. 365 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: Right. 366 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 3: So again he's got that cubing thing. If this is 367 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 3: a person who wants me to be remorseful, I can do. 368 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 4: That, right. 369 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 2: So did you watch the movie The Hunt for the 370 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 2: bt K Killer? What do you think were there things? 371 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 2: Because a lot of things that you've said today to me, 372 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: I feel like they put into that movie. 373 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 3: On the investigative side what they know initially they have it. 374 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 3: You know, he's got some gaps in his murder spree. 375 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 3: In nineteen seventy four of January, there's a family of 376 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 3: four killed. Three months later there's a lone woman and 377 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 3: her brother is shot but not killed. Then three years 378 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 3: and another woman, and then three or four months go 379 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 3: by another woman, and then you know, and Raider had 380 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 3: sent a note about eight months after the otaros so 381 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 3: it's nineteen seventy four October ish, basically saying that the 382 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 3: people they had arrested this were not the guys. It 383 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 3: was him him alone, and you know he kind of 384 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 3: named himself BTK, so he had communicated with them, and 385 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 3: then after I think it was Shirley Bayanne who was 386 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy seven, he wrote this kind of little 387 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 3: poem and then killed Nancy Fox and called it in right. 388 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 3: So now we have a long period of time here. 389 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 3: But and they're not sure that Catherine Bright's part of 390 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 3: this because the knot used to tie her was different 391 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 3: than what was in Otaro, and he didn't write anything 392 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 3: about her. Well, the reason was because her brother lived 393 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 3: and was a witness, so he didn't want to pay 394 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 3: attention to that, but he did want credit as a 395 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 3: serial killer. So he's he's taken the oto, the four 396 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 3: in O'to and Sholey Buyen and Nancy Fox, and so 397 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 3: that's where he's first getting going. They don't know who 398 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 3: he is at all. 399 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 2: Wasn't he afraid of being caught because it was this 400 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 2: is in or that person seeing him like I was 401 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 2: struck by that. 402 00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 3: Afraid after the otos, but no one came. So then 403 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 3: three months later he decides he's going to do this again. 404 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 3: He was afraid. He even looked for where Kevin lived 405 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 3: and thought about killing him to eliminate him, but then didn't. 406 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 3: So but then no one came and he didn't do 407 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 3: anything till nineteen seventy seven, and then again a long 408 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 3: period of time goes by. Now it's nineteen eighty five 409 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 3: before he picks off Marine Hedge, one of his neighbors 410 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 3: in Park City, not Wichita, right right, So then and 411 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 3: then the next year there he's back to Wichita for 412 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 3: another one. But he does not communicate about either of 413 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 3: these two, so they don't know that this is in fact, 414 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 3: it was Vicky Reagerly. They suspected her husband. 415 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 2: Right, So it's the inconsistency, right, like, it's not a typical. 416 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 3: Then nineteen ninety one, so again another five years, his 417 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 3: last victim, Doloris Davis, completely different. He leaves her outside, 418 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 3: he leaves Marine Hedge outside. These are not the same 419 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 3: behaviors that he was showing. So the task force and 420 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 3: they did bring the FBI profilers in at some point, 421 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 3: but they're faced with there's so many differences, and only 422 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 3: some does he communicate. You know which ones are BTK. 423 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 3: They thought they had seven. They weren't at all sure 424 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 3: about the final three. But because there had been No, 425 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 3: there had been such a long period of time, so 426 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 3: only when they caught him and he told them about 427 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 3: all ten did they know that what these were. So 428 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 3: the task Force had some pretty serious challenges in terms 429 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 3: of trying to connect all these and not just connect them. 430 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 3: Who could this possibly be? It was really the mistakes 431 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 3: he made during the cat and mouse game in two 432 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 3: thousand and four. Right, he's killed in nineteen ninety one, 433 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 3: his final victim. Nothing happens until two thousand and four. 434 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 2: So that in the movie they do show that, and 435 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:13,479 Speaker 2: they this is what I wanted to know if this 436 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 2: was accurate from what they show in the movie, that he. 437 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: He sees the author who wrote the book about. 438 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 2: Him on and that stimulates him to start to send 439 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 2: these things and give them clues. 440 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 3: Essentially, yeah, he didn't want Beatty to tell his story 441 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 3: because Bead was going to talk about the seven murders, 442 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 3: so his book was going to be inaccurate. But not 443 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 3: only that. Raider the narcissist wants to control the narrative, right, 444 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 3: so he then decides he's going to start sending his 445 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 3: own chapters to his story. The funny thing is he 446 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,959 Speaker 3: ripped off the chapters we had on the court TV website. 447 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: You're kidding. 448 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 3: I'm not kidding. The titles of his chapters or the titles. 449 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 3: I used to work for the Crime Library, which was 450 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 3: Court TV's kind of repository website, and all the titles 451 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 3: from our article on him were the ones he picked. 452 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 3: So I knew he was reading that story. I didn't 453 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 3: write it, but I knew he was reading that story. 454 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 3: So he still wasn't telling his own story. 455 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 2: Oh so this is just he was that intentional. Do 456 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 2: you think then he was trying to make. 457 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 3: That's what he was. The Shirley Lock's poem that was 458 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 3: plagiarized from someone else. Some of the other things that 459 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 3: he did that he wrote were plagiarized. The one, Oh 460 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 3: Nancy was from a folk song. So no, it isn't surprising. 461 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 3: And he read serial killer novels to figure out some 462 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 3: things to do. 463 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 2: His demeanor is very much like the language, like I'm 464 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 2: so struck by that. How it's very clinical and almost 465 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 2: like he's a like a professor himself or in law 466 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 2: enforcement himself. 467 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 3: Oh you mean you mean during the plea hearing. Yes, yes, 468 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 3: So the background to that is that he did not 469 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:20,239 Speaker 3: know the judge was going to make him talk about it. 470 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 3: He thought he was going in just to give a 471 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 3: plea and leave. He was taken aback, so I think 472 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 3: he was off guard. He's not like that when we 473 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 3: talk on the phone or he has a range of emotions. 474 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 3: He laughs. He that was a circumstance that he was 475 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 3: off guard, and I think it was just his way 476 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 3: of keeping control over himself. 477 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: Why do you think that. 478 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 2: We as viewers are so drawn to these kinds of 479 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 2: cases and we're fascinated for decades, I mean, especially when 480 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:01,959 Speaker 2: it's like a killer that seems normal. 481 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: Why do you think we're so fascinated? 482 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 3: Well, I think in that's a sociologist's question, is not 483 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 3: really what I study. But we do try to stay safe, 484 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 3: and these are dangerous people, and we believe if we 485 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 3: study them enough, we'll figure out how to protect ourselves 486 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 3: from them. The big problem, I think is that we 487 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 3: would then have to be suspicious of everyone because the 488 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 3: serial killers have been you know, boy Scout leaders, they've 489 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 3: been youth ministers, they've been treachers, they've been all the 490 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 3: things that we trust in society, have been nurses and doctors. 491 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 3: They are all the things we trust in society. So 492 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 3: how do we drop our ability to bond as a 493 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 3: community in order to protect ourselves. I think we choose 494 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 3: community first, and so that's why we fail to see them, right. 495 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: That is something in the movie. 496 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 2: There is a section where you where everything really escalates 497 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,959 Speaker 2: for the community in where you, you know, then make 498 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 2: a point of showing that people are afraid to sort 499 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 2: of go anywhere or do anything at the point when 500 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 2: they realize that it truly is someone in their community. 501 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 2: And then he's back and all of that, and that's 502 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 2: just such a terrifying you know. 503 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 3: And he had targeted another woman. 504 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: Right do they? In the movie? 505 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 2: He has this shed that he works out of essentially 506 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 2: and has all of. 507 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: The trappings and the things that he's taken from his victims. 508 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: Is that and that but the family, I guess it 509 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: ever went in there? Was that a real thing? 510 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 3: Is that shed? But he had actually a bunch of 511 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 3: Heidi holes that he called in the house. He had 512 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 3: false bottoms, really those bottoms and drawers, locked boxes. He 513 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 3: built a treehouse for his kids and he put a 514 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 3: false floor in there. He dug holes, so he hit 515 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 3: things in a lot of different places. But he kept 516 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 3: the things that he put into his kit hit kit 517 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 3: mostly in the shed, and. 518 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 2: It just feels like, isn't that somebody wanting to be caught? 519 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 2: Or is that part of that, like fear. 520 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 3: Thing using you're a gardener, you're using ropes for He 521 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 3: wouldn't just put it into it into a kit and 522 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 3: leave it there. He redistributed it. So the rope hangs 523 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 3: over here, and the twine over here. 524 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: And I mean the things that he was like. 525 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 3: But but his wife knows that he keeps that in 526 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 3: a safe place in the house. No, it isn't like 527 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 3: he has a hit kit right there that anybody can 528 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 3: find and understand what it is. He dismantles it when 529 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 3: it brings it home. 530 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 2: Right, So all the little hiding places and things that 531 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 2: you're talking about in that house, if any one thing 532 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 2: was found, it would not seem strange. 533 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: Is that what you mean? 534 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 3: Yes? But also they weren't because these were his hiding places. 535 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 3: Plus he kept a lot of stuff in a locked 536 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 3: file in his office. The book that I did, I 537 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,760 Speaker 3: call it a guided autobiography because I'm guiding it towards 538 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 3: certain things that I want to get benefit from. But 539 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,800 Speaker 3: it is like eighty to eighty five percent his voice 540 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 3: he wrote long, detailed letters. We did things in code, 541 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 3: which was really odd. But he wanted to tell his story, 542 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 3: his dark journey. So for example, he would send me 543 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 3: police reports and then he'd annotate them. Here's where they 544 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 3: got this wrong. Here's where they you know, see this, 545 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 3: Here's where they didn't understand what I was doing here. 546 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 3: So he was very helpful in guiding me through what 547 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 3: he was thinking and what was happening to him at 548 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 3: the planning stages and at the crime scenes and afterward. 549 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 3: And I think it's a really great study of the 550 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 3: mid kind of a killer in a way that you 551 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 3: often don't get. Any of the books on the investigation 552 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 3: are going to be about what the investigators were thinking 553 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 3: and what challenges they were meeting. This is him him talking, 554 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 3: So I think it's valuable as raw material. 555 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 2: Really, right, did you ever feel scared? I know you 556 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 2: said you were on a monitor and all those things, 557 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 2: But were I mean, was it scary to talk with him? 558 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 3: No? No, I mean I continue to talk to him. 559 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 3: I talked to him two weeks ago. 560 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: Oh you're kidding. 561 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 3: He's We watched TV shows, talked about them. He talks 562 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 3: about politics a lot. He talks about the Farming Report 563 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 3: and things like that. It's actually very easy to talk 564 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 3: to him. 565 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,720 Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, wow. 566 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 3: But I don't have to face him as a victim. 567 00:35:55,200 --> 00:36:00,080 Speaker 3: I'm not in his sights as I am going to 568 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 3: bind you and molest you and kill you. 569 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,399 Speaker 2: Well, Doctor Katherine Ramsland, thank you so much for being 570 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 2: here today and talking with me. 571 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: This is just fascinating. 572 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 2: Doctor Ramsland teaches forensic psychology at de Sales University and 573 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 2: wrote the twenty sixteen book Confession of a Sterial Killer, 574 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 2: The Untold Story of Dennis Raider, the BTK Killer with 575 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 2: Dennis Raider himself. Thank you so much, doctor Ramslin, and 576 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 2: continued success with your work. 577 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 3: Okay, I appreciate it.