WEBVTT - #235 Jason Flom with Amanda Brumfield 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:05.640 Amanda Brumfield considered her friend, Heather Murphy and her children 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:08.760 to be extended family, often caring for Heather's one year 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:12.520 old daughter, Olivia. On the night of October third, two 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:15.120 thousand and eight, Olivia had been sleeping in her playpen 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:18.520 at Amanda's house when she woke up, attempted to climb 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:21.440 out of the playpen, and fell head first onto the floor. 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:25.400 Although she initially seemed fine, within two hours, she became 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:28.720 unresponsive and later died at the hospital of a skull 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.800 fracture and brain bleed. The medical examiner opined that the 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:37.239 injuries weren't consistent with a playpen fall. In cases of 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:41.040 the accidental death of a child, authorities often assume abuse 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:44.000 and typically attributed to the last person to care for 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:49.360 the child. In this tragic accident, that person was Amanda Brumfield, 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:53.600 who was charged with multiple counts, including first degree murder 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:57.160 ignoring a head injury in a different stage of healing. 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.760 The medical examiner said that the injuries were of a 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:03.400 that could only have come from abuse or a car accident, 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:05.840 and the state said that Olivia was too young to 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:08.839 have been able to climb out of the playpen. Amanda's 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:13.039 expert witnesses were barred from testifying due to untimely disclosure 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:17.600 to the prosecution. Without expert testimony to refute the state's case, 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:20.440 and with the added pressure of national attention, in part 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:24.760 because of Amanda's longest strange famous father, actor Billy Bob Thornton, 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.600 Amanda was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to twenty years. 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:31.640 It took the Innocis Project of Florida, along with the 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:35.160 Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences to finally set her 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:52.680 free after nine long years. This is Wrongful Conviction. Welcome 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:57.120 back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's episode, Well, this is going 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:00.960 to upset you if you are apparent, if you are 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:02.920 an uncle or an aunt, if you're someone who's ever 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:06.560 babysat for someone's child, if you're someone who loves children, 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:09.760 if you're someone who cares about justice. This story is 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:12.320 it's important. Unfortunately, there are things about it that are 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:15.760 typical and then there's some really extraordinary things about this 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:20.080 case as well. And without further ado, I'm going to 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:22.760 introduce our two guests today. One is going to be 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:26.600 familiar to our audience. This is someone who well, I 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:30.400 put her on a pedestal Kate Judson is the director 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:34.160 of the Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences, one of 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.959 the leading experts in the world on Shaken Baby Syndrome. 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:41.520 And Kate, I really appreciate you being back here again 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:42.080 on the show. 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:44.400 Thank you so much for having me Jason, that's always 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:45.040 such a pleasure. 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:49.120 And with her is the woman who lived through this 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:56.520 unspeakable tragedy and Saga, Amanda Brumfield. Amanda was wrongfully convicted 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:00.560 and when you hear her story, you're gonna want to 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:02.440 scream and then you want to do something about it. 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.720 So Amanda, thank you for being hearing for your courage. 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:08.440 Well, thank you for having me. It's an honor to 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:09.399 have the opportunity. 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:12.799 And when I say this story is unique, I don't 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:14.720 think we've ever covered the story of someone who was 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.280 roughly convicted who also happens to be the daughter of 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:21.240 a major movie star. I think that's only important to 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:25.480 mention because if this could happen to Amanda, it could 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:29.359 happen to anyone. Of course, Amanda, you were born back 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:31.280 in nineteen seventy nine. I don't want to give away 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.400 your age, but it's part of your story. And your 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:40.000 father was Billy Bob Thornton, right, correct, How was your childhood? 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:45.560 My mom and my dad Billy had me in of course, 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.600 July seventy nine. Mom and Billy split up when I 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.480 was about one, and my mom remarried my dad, Jimmy, 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:56.280 who then raised me until I was eighteen years old, 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:59.200 even after he and my mom divorced when I was 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:03.360 about nine ten in a small small town in Arkansas, 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:06.560 graduated with all of thirty eight people and just kind 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:07.360 of went from there. 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:10.520 So would you describe your childhood? I mean, when you 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:12.720 think back on it, was it a happy childhood? 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:16.000 Absolutely? You know, we didn't have a lot, but I 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:18.920 didn't know that we didn't have a lot. I had great, 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:23.440 great grandparents who were involved, and a wonderful dad who 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.920 was there for me and really instilled good values and 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.680 morals and work ethic. So I had a great childhood. 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:34.480 Okay, So now let's fast forward to two thousand and eight, 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.120 where we get to the heart of the story. Amanda, 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:39.440 tell us about your life at the time this happened 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.560 and your relationship with Heather Murphy and her daughter Olivia. 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:48.920 My then husband worked for a restaurant chain and one 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:54.000 of his employees who was Olivia's mother. She just really 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:57.600 didn't have much of anyone and I kind of stepped 0:04:57.640 --> 0:05:00.839 in to take care of Olivia when she was born. 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:04.400 She was actually my goddaughter. We were in small town 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:08.839 in Florida, just outside of Orlando, and I would take 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.839 care of Olivia three or four nights a week, along 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.839 with my own children, and a lot of times Olivia's 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:18.120 sister Isabella as well. Heather, and now we're very good friends. 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:19.800 We function like an extended family. 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:24.960 Well, it sounds as wholesome as anything could probably be, 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:27.920 and it's a scene that is probably taking place tonight 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.839 in households and small towns and cities all across the country, 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:35.479 right just friends and godparents doing what they can for 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:39.560 each other, helping out. And then, of course, everything went 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:43.400 as horribly wrong as anything could go, although, as is 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:47.040 typical in these cases, at the outset, it wasn't clear 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:50.159 what had happened or what the extent of the problem was. 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:52.320 And it started with a fall, as so many of 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:55.320 these shaken baby cases do. And this is where I 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:58.000 like to turn to you, Kate, and I'm so glad 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.640 you're here, because it's so important for people to understand 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:04.680 this because these type of accidents happened. Children fall is 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:09.440 this part of growing up, but sometimes the consequences are dire. 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:12.520 Kate set the stage for us what happened that night 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:15.919 and how did it result in Amanda going to prison? 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:21.159 Well, Jason, Amanda's case really progressed, like so many of 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:26.200 these cases involving shaken baby syndrome or abusive head trauma. 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:31.240 She was a person who had a loving relationship with 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.080 his child. There was no reason to believe she would 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.520 ever do anything to hurt her. And while she was 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:41.920 babysitting her goddaughter climbed out of a pack and play 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:46.760 and fell onto a hard floor, a carpeted concrete floor. 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:51.480 And what people sometimes say about these cases, and what 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:54.040 was said in Amanda's case, is that that kind of 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:59.520 a fall cannot be fatal or cause very serious injury 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.800 in a child. And that's just not true, even though 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:04.680 kids fall all the time, and most of the time 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.320 they're not badly injured. In fact, kids have falls that 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.000 we would expect to cause all sorts of problems and 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:13.360 they walk away from it fine. Some children don't. Some 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:17.320 children are catastrophically injured from falls that may not initially 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:19.400 seem serious, and that can be for all different kinds 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:23.640 of reasons, including reasons we don't know or understand. So 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:26.960 it's fairly common to have a case like this where 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:30.440 a child has an accident and then the last person 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:34.080 caregiving is accused of abusing them, or the person to 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.080 call nine one one is accused of abusing the child. 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:40.440 And please anyone who hasn't already listened to our series 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:44.320 Wrongful Conviction Junk Science. Our coverage of shaken Baby Syndrome 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:48.600 features our guest today, Kate Judson. She and the host, 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.600 my great friend Josh Dubin do an amazing job of 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:57.160 really laying out in clear and concise terms why this 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:01.600 is just absolutely junk science. And we're surely going to 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.360 get into that today. And Kate, can you talk a 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.240 little bit about the origins of shaken baby syndrome. 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.400 Yes, well, Doctor Norman guth Kelch is often credited as 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:15.360 being the first person to hypothesize about shaken baby syndrome, 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:19.800 and doctor guth Kelch in his later years was definitely 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:24.640 very concerned about the way his hypothesis was being used 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.840 and he was the first pediatric neurosurgeon in Great Britain 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:31.240 and he had these medical findings that are often associated 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:35.160 with trauma, but the children had apparently suffered no trauma. 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.560 So what we're talking about is what's sometimes called the 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.720 constellation of findings or the triad of injuries that some 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.480 physicians believe allow them to make a diagnosis of shaking, 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:48.760 and that is subdural hematoma, which is bleeding between the 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:51.959 brain and the skull under the protective coverings of the brain, 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:55.360 retinal hemorrhage, which is bleeding in the back of the eye, 0:08:55.400 --> 0:09:02.040 and cerebral edema encephalopathy basically brains dwelling and brain dysfunction. 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.439 And he saw these things and he thought, wow, these 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.679 are normally associated with some kind of a trauma, right 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:12.160 an accident or abuse, but he was confused because there 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:16.160 was not external injury. Children often didn't have fractures or bruises, 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:20.520 so he was wondering if it could be because at 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:23.520 the time where he was from, in northern England, it 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:27.200 was relatively common for parents to discipline naughty children by 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:29.240 giving them what they often referred to as a good shake, 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:31.640 and he was very concerned about this, and so he 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:37.240 started cautioning in his writings against doing that. Basically saying, 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:39.960 we don't really know why these children have this, but 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:41.839 we think one of the reasons could be that they 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:44.240 were shaken, and so parents should be told not to 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.280 shake their children, and if a child comes in with 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.600 these kinds of medical findings, doctors should ask the parent 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:53.640 if the child might have been shaken. He wasn't saying 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:57.439 that these findings were exclusively diagnostic of shaking, and he 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:01.040 wasn't saying any of the stuff that I'm later like 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:03.440 that the last person with the child must have shaken 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:05.800 the child, or that these findings could only come from 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:10.200 child abuse. He was just wondering about one possible mechanism. 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:13.560 And so in his later years he started to write 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:18.120 and speak urging a lot more caution, saying I was 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.480 just wondering about this, and that's how science progresses. We 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:23.440 come up with a hypothesis, and we learn about it, 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.400 and we test it. And I'm really unhappy with the 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:28.319 way that this has progressed. 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:33.840 Yeah, progressed. The words just stuck right. It's a catchy phrase, 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:37.720 and it seems like in the hands of people who 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:42.400 maybe were intellectually incurious, this became something that became a 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.640 fallback when they didn't know what had really happened. And 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:49.600 I believe too that there's part of us humans that 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:53.040 have trouble processing the death of a child as being 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:58.520 something that can happen naturally. So sometimes subconsciously it's easier 0:10:58.600 --> 0:10:59.520 to blame someone. 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:02.840 So many of the problems that we see in forensic 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:07.800 sciences come from an idea that's seductive, right, an idea 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.240 like we can compare these two things and tell without 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:15.880 error who did the crime, or in these kinds of cases, 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:18.760 we can look at the medical findings of the child 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:21.800 and be sure that what happened was a homicide. And 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:24.560 then if you want to save kids, it becomes so 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:27.520 easy just keep them away from bad people who will 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:32.320 hurt them. And that's a much less complicated answer to 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:36.520 a world in which kids can be hurt by disease 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.000 or congenital illness or falling down the stairs or falling 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:41.240 out of their playpens. 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:45.680 Okay, so, Amanda, if you could take us through this 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:48.960 time period, this ten o'clock till the ambulance arrived, and 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:53.120 what started off as a very normal average night with 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.600 a child that seemed to be behaving normally, after this fall, 0:11:57.280 --> 0:11:58.880 if you could just take us through the sequence of 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:01.520 events because I think people and really learn something from this. 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:05.520 That night, Heather and I had taken all of the kids, 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.440 meaning my children as well as her two, and we 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:10.920 had gone to Chick fil A. The kids played eight 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:13.960 I stopped for ice cream for all the kids. Once 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:16.360 we got back to my house, all the kids played, 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.120 we did baths and all that good stuff, and then bedtime. 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.120 Heather and I sat in the living room just chit 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:26.800 chatting like normal, and Olivia was still up. Around ten 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:30.520 ten thirty, Heather had set the pack and play up 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:32.960 and I laid Olivia down so she could go to sleep. 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.960 Shortly after that, probably around eleven, Heather went home because 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.160 she had to work the next day. After she left, 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.920 I was just watching TV. I had to get up 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.319 to use the bathroom, and whenever I came back around 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:46.800 the corner, Olivia was on the side of the playpen, 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.880 which she had tried several times before to climb out 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.760 of the playpen, but just hadn't actually climbed out yet. 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.080 When I saw her, I just said her name quickly, 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.720 just said Olivia. And when I did is when she 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:01.960 went off of the side of the When I came 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:05.160 around the playpen, there was nothing to indicate that she 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.120 had hit her head. She had looked to me like 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:09.920 she had hit her butt, and that's when she had 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:13.080 the small cut on her tongue, and I dabbed it 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:15.000 with a paper towel to make sure it was okay, 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.959 and checked her. She was fine, and then I let 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.120 her down so she could play for a little while, 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:22.640 and she played with some balls that we had in 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.440 a little container there, and after some time she laid 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:30.160 down on the love seat beside me and went to sleep. 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.680 After she had been asleep for a little while, my 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.679 then husband was on his way home and would call 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:41.200 just to let me know that he was on his way, 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:45.079 and I went to move Olivia into the playpen so 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:49.240 that she could sleep, and uh, something just didn't feel right. 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.680 She just didn't feel right. After I got off the 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:53.400 phone with him, once he came in the door, I 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.440 knew something was wrong. Her breathing steamed shallow, so I 0:13:56.480 --> 0:14:00.320 had started CPR. He called nine to one one, and 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:04.360 shortly after the first responder got there and began CPR himself, 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:07.160 and the next thing I knew was being at the 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.840 hospital and them saying that she was pronounced dead at 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:10.400 the hospital. 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:25.000 This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company, 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.920 and by Accentsure, a global professional services company with leading 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:33.000 capabilities in digital, cloud and security. Working to reform the 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:35.480 criminal justice system is a key pillar of the AIG 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:38.920 pro Bono program, which provides free legal services and other 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:43.320 support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.880 as part of Eccensure's commitment to racial and civil justice. 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:51.080 Accenture's Legal Access Program provides pro bono legal services in 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:55.120 partnership with more than forty organizations, bringing meaningful change to 0:14:55.200 --> 0:15:07.920 people and communities worldwide. So doctors examined Olivia and determined 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:12.560 that she died of a skull fracture and a brain bleed. However, 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:17.600 a medical examiner also opined incorrectly that the injuries were 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:21.440 not consistent with a playpen fall. Right, So we know 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:23.880 that in cases of accidental death of a child, the 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:28.640 authority's default is to say that there was abuse, and 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:32.600 as Kate pointed out, they typically attributed it to the 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:36.200 last person who was around the child. That part would 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.600 be logical if there was actual abuse, but of course 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.200 in this case, it was an accident and you were 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:46.040 the last person known to be with the baby. The case. 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:48.800 On top of all the other problem is dree national 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.560 attention because of the fact that you had a father 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.480 who was by now a famous actor, right, And we 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:57.160 know that has a big impact as well. When the 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.920 media gets involved, it ramps up the price, and it 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.680 also creates an environment in which it's less likely that 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:05.560 you'll get a fair trial because it's hard to be 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.800 an impartial juror when you've been reading that this woman 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.480 as a monster who killed this baby, right, especially the 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.080 small town with a famous father. But the fact is 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.880 you weren't arrested for quite some time, right, right. 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:23.040 It was approximately six months later. Olivia passed in October 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:26.160 of two thousand and eight, and it was May of 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:26.840 two thousand and. 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.840 Nine, and by now, of course, in May of two 0:16:29.880 --> 0:16:32.040 thousand and nine, you were charged with first degree murder, 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:36.400 among other things. So now let's go to trial. Orange Oscio, 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:41.240 A chief medical examiner, jan Garavalia, determined that Olivia's death 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:45.640 was a homicide based on the autopsy. She found a 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:48.280 three and a half inch fraction on Olivia's skull, bleeding 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:50.800 and swelling in her brain, hemorrhaging behind her eyes, and 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:55.040 cuts on her tongue. Now. At trial, Garvalia and another 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:59.480 expert testified that the skull fracture was quote inconsistent with 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.080 an accident fall and could only be caused by a 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:05.600 car accident or being slammed against a wall, proving that 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:09.639 Olivia was abused end quote. The state also claimed, and 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:13.119 this is bananas, that Olivia was too young to climb 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:15.879 out of her playpen, as if there's an exact age 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.679 when kids can climb out of her playpen, right, Kate 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.400 tell us some of the other things that went wrong 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:25.040 here at this critical, critical stage, Well. 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.240 There were a couple of things about Amanda's case and 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.320 about Olivia's death that really complicate the picture. One of 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:32.240 the things that we were very concerned about when we 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.520 looked at her case on post conviction was that the 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.680 medical examiner did not preserve, as far as we could 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:42.000 ever discover a piece of the bone the fracture itself, 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:44.600 So there was no way to look at the fracture 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:48.040 itself to tell how old it was. And that's important 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:52.080 because Amanda had been nowhere near Olivia for the weeks 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.359 leading up to her death. She was visiting her dad. 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.240 She was out of the state, so it was really 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:01.679 important to know how old this fracture was, and the 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:04.560 reasons that we had to believe that it was older 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:10.840 was that upon careful inspection of the tissues that were 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:15.480 preserved from autopsy that were above and below the fracture, 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:20.159 those appeared to have blood protonaceous material in them that 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:24.720 was older. So it indicated that there could have been 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:28.040 some older injury there, and that made it very likely 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:32.359 that the fracture was an older fracture. And that's important 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:35.320 because a child can and you know, it doesn't happen 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:38.840 very often, but a child can be critically injured or 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:41.560 die from a fall like that, from a fall out 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:45.159 of a platepan into a hard floor, But a delicate child, 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:48.600 a child with an injury, is more likely to be 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.920 seriously injured in that kind of a fall. It makes 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:56.880 more sense that someone who's already hurt would reinjure their 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:01.119 existing injury, So that was really problematic. It was also 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:05.080 really problematic the way that they tried to place the 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:09.160 blame upon Amanda. So the story that the state told 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:16.119 at trial to accuse her was really internally inconsistent. The 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:21.520 timeline was very fuzzy. They said all sorts of things 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.119 that weren't borne out by the physical evidence. So I'll 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.960 give you one example. After Olivia had her fall, Amanda 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:30.240 sat up with her for a little while, and, you know, 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:32.239 as you might do with a child who's upset, let 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.640 her play, gave her a snack. She had banana and 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:40.680 some fruit snacks, and those were found in her stomach 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:46.000 at autopsy. So there's pretty clear physical evidence corroborating what 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:51.320 Amanda said. And yet at the trial, doctors testified that 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:56.440 Amanda couldn't have been telling the truth because Olivia had 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:59.399 a cut on her tongue that would have prevented her 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.840 from eating. But that doesn't make any sense. We had 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:09.360 incontrovertible physical evidence that she indeed eight, but instead the 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:16.280 subjective speculation of the medical examiner seemed to sort of 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:19.080 trump that objective evidence. 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.280 And that testimony. It's going to hit hard with a 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:25.440 jury because why would they doubt what this guy, this 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:30.120 very learned and educated person is saying. Right, one would 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.399 need to see evidence to the contrary in order to 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:36.760 have any degree of healthy skepticism, even though we know 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:39.600 that the standard is supposed to be beyond a reasonable doubt. 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:42.200 But that's not the way it works. In courtrooms. Unfortunately, 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.240 especially in cases like this, is really guilty until proven innocent, 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.720 and that takes us to the defense. Was there any 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:54.040 defense expert presented anything to counter this false narrative that 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:56.240 the medical examiner was putting out there? 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:00.760 There were two defense experts that were at the time. 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:05.800 My experts had information to the effect, for example, the 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:09.280 videos showing other children of similar age climbing out of 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:13.240 playpens and cribs and such, of the old injury and 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:16.040 what happens with when that iron starts to build up, 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.159 and how that indicates that it's an old injury and 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:20.440 had to have at least been I be least seventy 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:23.639 two hours of healing that had already started. There was 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:26.320 a lot of evidence that was critical to my case 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:29.919 that my experts were not allowed to discuss because it 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:33.199 had not been disclosed to the prosecution prior to the 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:36.680 trial date. Their entire testimony wasn't even allowed. 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:41.760 Oh so that's a big mistake on your defense team side. 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:44.199 They had the evidence but couldn't present it because they 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:46.840 had either forgotten or just botched it right. 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:51.000 Well, my attorneys changed so many times through the Public 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:53.920 Defender's office. My initial attorney had moved to another state, 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:56.719 and then someone else came on, and then the very 0:21:56.800 --> 0:21:59.560 last attorney was added about ten days prior to trial, 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:01.080 maybe fourteen days before trial. 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:02.879 Wow, how long was the trial? 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:04.080 Four days? 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:06.720 Four days for a first degree murder case? 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:09.800 And there was even a comment made on the first 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:12.160 day of trial that they were sure they could get 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:14.600 it wrapped up by the weekend because it was a 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:18.440 Memorial Day weekend and the prosecutor had plans for Memorial 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:20.040 Day weekend, right. 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:22.760 And I'm sure the inference there was a you jury 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:24.679 members probably want to get home too, You probably have 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:28.400 some great stuff going on. Yeah, that doesn't sit very well. 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:32.440 So okay, four day trial. Everyone's trying to get home 0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:35.280 from Memorial Day. You're facing a charge of could city 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:36.840 to prison for the rest of your life or crying 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:39.200 that you know and everybody should have known you didn't 0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:42.800 commit and the jury goes out. What were you thinking 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:43.440 at this time? 0:22:44.000 --> 0:22:48.000 I still had this belief in this system that my 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:51.600 entire life I had believed worked. I went in there 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:55.320 knowing that I was going home because innocent people don't 0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:58.720 go to person. And when they said not guilty on 0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:01.200 the first two counts, I was like, finally, and then 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:03.840 they say guilty on the third count, which was manslaughter. 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:07.840 My entire world crumbled right then because what I knew 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:12.000 is a working system failed, not just me, but my children. 0:23:12.119 --> 0:23:15.040 Right then, I mean, all I'm thinking is who's going 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:18.439 to raise my daughters? What's going to happen? Now you 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:21.520 just fall to the deepest pit of despair. There's no 0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:24.199