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Speaker 1: Amanda Brumfield considered her friend, Heather Murphy and her children

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Speaker 1: to be extended family, often caring for Heather's one year

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Speaker 1: old daughter, Olivia. On the night of October third, two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eight, Olivia had been sleeping in her playpen

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Speaker 1: at Amanda's house when she woke up, attempted to climb

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Speaker 1: out of the playpen, and fell head first onto the floor.

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Speaker 1: Although she initially seemed fine, within two hours, she became

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Speaker 1: unresponsive and later died at the hospital of a skull

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Speaker 1: fracture and brain bleed. The medical examiner opined that the

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Speaker 1: injuries weren't consistent with a playpen fall. In cases of

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Speaker 1: the accidental death of a child, authorities often assume abuse

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Speaker 1: and typically attributed to the last person to care for

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Speaker 1: the child. In this tragic accident, that person was Amanda Brumfield,

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Speaker 1: who was charged with multiple counts, including first degree murder

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Speaker 1: ignoring a head injury in a different stage of healing.

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Speaker 1: The medical examiner said that the injuries were of a

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Speaker 1: that could only have come from abuse or a car accident,

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Speaker 1: and the state said that Olivia was too young to

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Speaker 1: have been able to climb out of the playpen. Amanda's

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Speaker 1: expert witnesses were barred from testifying due to untimely disclosure

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Speaker 1: to the prosecution. Without expert testimony to refute the state's case,

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Speaker 1: and with the added pressure of national attention, in part

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Speaker 1: because of Amanda's longest strange famous father, actor Billy Bob Thornton,

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Speaker 1: Amanda was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to twenty years.

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Speaker 1: It took the Innocis Project of Florida, along with the

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Speaker 1: Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences to finally set her

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Speaker 1: free after nine long years. This is Wrongful Conviction. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's episode, Well, this is going

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Speaker 1: to upset you if you are apparent, if you are

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Speaker 1: an uncle or an aunt, if you're someone who's ever

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Speaker 1: babysat for someone's child, if you're someone who loves children,

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Speaker 1: if you're someone who cares about justice. This story is

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Speaker 1: it's important. Unfortunately, there are things about it that are

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Speaker 1: typical and then there's some really extraordinary things about this

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Speaker 1: case as well. And without further ado, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: introduce our two guests today. One is going to be

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Speaker 1: familiar to our audience. This is someone who well, I

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Speaker 1: put her on a pedestal Kate Judson is the director

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Speaker 1: of the Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences, one of

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Speaker 1: the leading experts in the world on Shaken Baby Syndrome.

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Speaker 1: And Kate, I really appreciate you being back here again

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Speaker 1: on the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me Jason, that's always

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Speaker 2: such a pleasure.

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Speaker 1: And with her is the woman who lived through this

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Speaker 1: unspeakable tragedy and Saga, Amanda Brumfield. Amanda was wrongfully convicted

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Speaker 1: and when you hear her story, you're gonna want to

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Speaker 1: scream and then you want to do something about it.

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Speaker 1: So Amanda, thank you for being hearing for your courage.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you for having me. It's an honor to

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Speaker 3: have the opportunity.

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Speaker 1: And when I say this story is unique, I don't

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Speaker 1: think we've ever covered the story of someone who was

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Speaker 1: roughly convicted who also happens to be the daughter of

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Speaker 1: a major movie star. I think that's only important to

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Speaker 1: mention because if this could happen to Amanda, it could

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Speaker 1: happen to anyone. Of course, Amanda, you were born back

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy nine. I don't want to give away

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Speaker 1: your age, but it's part of your story. And your

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Speaker 1: father was Billy Bob Thornton, right, correct, How was your childhood?

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Speaker 3: My mom and my dad Billy had me in of course,

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Speaker 3: July seventy nine. Mom and Billy split up when I

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Speaker 3: was about one, and my mom remarried my dad, Jimmy,

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Speaker 3: who then raised me until I was eighteen years old,

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Speaker 3: even after he and my mom divorced when I was

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Speaker 3: about nine ten in a small small town in Arkansas,

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Speaker 3: graduated with all of thirty eight people and just kind

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Speaker 3: of went from there.

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Speaker 1: So would you describe your childhood? I mean, when you

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Speaker 1: think back on it, was it a happy childhood?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely? You know, we didn't have a lot, but I

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Speaker 3: didn't know that we didn't have a lot. I had great,

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Speaker 3: great grandparents who were involved, and a wonderful dad who

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Speaker 3: was there for me and really instilled good values and

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Speaker 3: morals and work ethic. So I had a great childhood.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So now let's fast forward to two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 1: where we get to the heart of the story. Amanda,

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Speaker 1: tell us about your life at the time this happened

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Speaker 1: and your relationship with Heather Murphy and her daughter Olivia.

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Speaker 3: My then husband worked for a restaurant chain and one

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Speaker 3: of his employees who was Olivia's mother. She just really

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Speaker 3: didn't have much of anyone and I kind of stepped

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Speaker 3: in to take care of Olivia when she was born.

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Speaker 3: She was actually my goddaughter. We were in small town

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Speaker 3: in Florida, just outside of Orlando, and I would take

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Speaker 3: care of Olivia three or four nights a week, along

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Speaker 3: with my own children, and a lot of times Olivia's

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Speaker 3: sister Isabella as well. Heather, and now we're very good friends.

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Speaker 3: We function like an extended family.

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Speaker 1: Well, it sounds as wholesome as anything could probably be,

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Speaker 1: and it's a scene that is probably taking place tonight

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Speaker 1: in households and small towns and cities all across the country,

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Speaker 1: right just friends and godparents doing what they can for

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Speaker 1: each other, helping out. And then, of course, everything went

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Speaker 1: as horribly wrong as anything could go, although, as is

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Speaker 1: typical in these cases, at the outset, it wasn't clear

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Speaker 1: what had happened or what the extent of the problem was.

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Speaker 1: And it started with a fall, as so many of

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Speaker 1: these shaken baby cases do. And this is where I

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Speaker 1: like to turn to you, Kate, and I'm so glad

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Speaker 1: you're here, because it's so important for people to understand

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Speaker 1: this because these type of accidents happened. Children fall is

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Speaker 1: this part of growing up, but sometimes the consequences are dire.

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Speaker 1: Kate set the stage for us what happened that night

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Speaker 1: and how did it result in Amanda going to prison?

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Speaker 2: Well, Jason, Amanda's case really progressed, like so many of

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Speaker 2: these cases involving shaken baby syndrome or abusive head trauma.

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Speaker 2: She was a person who had a loving relationship with

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Speaker 2: his child. There was no reason to believe she would

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Speaker 2: ever do anything to hurt her. And while she was

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Speaker 2: babysitting her goddaughter climbed out of a pack and play

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Speaker 2: and fell onto a hard floor, a carpeted concrete floor.

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Speaker 2: And what people sometimes say about these cases, and what

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Speaker 2: was said in Amanda's case, is that that kind of

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Speaker 2: a fall cannot be fatal or cause very serious injury

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Speaker 2: in a child. And that's just not true, even though

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Speaker 2: kids fall all the time, and most of the time

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Speaker 2: they're not badly injured. In fact, kids have falls that

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Speaker 2: we would expect to cause all sorts of problems and

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Speaker 2: they walk away from it fine. Some children don't. Some

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Speaker 2: children are catastrophically injured from falls that may not initially

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Speaker 2: seem serious, and that can be for all different kinds

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Speaker 2: of reasons, including reasons we don't know or understand. So

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Speaker 2: it's fairly common to have a case like this where

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Speaker 2: a child has an accident and then the last person

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Speaker 2: caregiving is accused of abusing them, or the person to

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Speaker 2: call nine one one is accused of abusing the child.

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Speaker 1: And please anyone who hasn't already listened to our series

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction Junk Science. Our coverage of shaken Baby Syndrome

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Speaker 1: features our guest today, Kate Judson. She and the host,

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Speaker 1: my great friend Josh Dubin do an amazing job of

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Speaker 1: really laying out in clear and concise terms why this

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Speaker 1: is just absolutely junk science. And we're surely going to

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Speaker 1: get into that today. And Kate, can you talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about the origins of shaken baby syndrome.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, Doctor Norman guth Kelch is often credited as

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Speaker 2: being the first person to hypothesize about shaken baby syndrome,

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Speaker 2: and doctor guth Kelch in his later years was definitely

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Speaker 2: very concerned about the way his hypothesis was being used

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Speaker 2: and he was the first pediatric neurosurgeon in Great Britain

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Speaker 2: and he had these medical findings that are often associated

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Speaker 2: with trauma, but the children had apparently suffered no trauma.

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Speaker 2: So what we're talking about is what's sometimes called the

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Speaker 2: constellation of findings or the triad of injuries that some

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Speaker 2: physicians believe allow them to make a diagnosis of shaking,

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Speaker 2: and that is subdural hematoma, which is bleeding between the

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Speaker 2: brain and the skull under the protective coverings of the brain,

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Speaker 2: retinal hemorrhage, which is bleeding in the back of the eye,

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Speaker 2: and cerebral edema encephalopathy basically brains dwelling and brain dysfunction.

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Speaker 2: And he saw these things and he thought, wow, these

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Speaker 2: are normally associated with some kind of a trauma, right

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Speaker 2: an accident or abuse, but he was confused because there

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Speaker 2: was not external injury. Children often didn't have fractures or bruises,

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Speaker 2: so he was wondering if it could be because at

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Speaker 2: the time where he was from, in northern England, it

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Speaker 2: was relatively common for parents to discipline naughty children by

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Speaker 2: giving them what they often referred to as a good shake,

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Speaker 2: and he was very concerned about this, and so he

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Speaker 2: started cautioning in his writings against doing that. Basically saying,

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Speaker 2: we don't really know why these children have this, but

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Speaker 2: we think one of the reasons could be that they

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Speaker 2: were shaken, and so parents should be told not to

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Speaker 2: shake their children, and if a child comes in with

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Speaker 2: these kinds of medical findings, doctors should ask the parent

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Speaker 2: if the child might have been shaken. He wasn't saying

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Speaker 2: that these findings were exclusively diagnostic of shaking, and he

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Speaker 2: wasn't saying any of the stuff that I'm later like

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Speaker 2: that the last person with the child must have shaken

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Speaker 2: the child, or that these findings could only come from

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Speaker 2: child abuse. He was just wondering about one possible mechanism.

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Speaker 2: And so in his later years he started to write

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Speaker 2: and speak urging a lot more caution, saying I was

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Speaker 2: just wondering about this, and that's how science progresses. We

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Speaker 2: come up with a hypothesis, and we learn about it,

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Speaker 2: and we test it. And I'm really unhappy with the

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Speaker 2: way that this has progressed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, progressed. The words just stuck right. It's a catchy phrase,

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Speaker 1: and it seems like in the hands of people who

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Speaker 1: maybe were intellectually incurious, this became something that became a

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Speaker 1: fallback when they didn't know what had really happened. And

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Speaker 1: I believe too that there's part of us humans that

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Speaker 1: have trouble processing the death of a child as being

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Speaker 1: something that can happen naturally. So sometimes subconsciously it's easier

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Speaker 1: to blame someone.

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Speaker 2: So many of the problems that we see in forensic

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Speaker 2: sciences come from an idea that's seductive, right, an idea

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Speaker 2: like we can compare these two things and tell without

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Speaker 2: error who did the crime, or in these kinds of cases,

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Speaker 2: we can look at the medical findings of the child

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Speaker 2: and be sure that what happened was a homicide. And

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Speaker 2: then if you want to save kids, it becomes so

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Speaker 2: easy just keep them away from bad people who will

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Speaker 2: hurt them. And that's a much less complicated answer to

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Speaker 2: a world in which kids can be hurt by disease

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Speaker 2: or congenital illness or falling down the stairs or falling

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Speaker 2: out of their playpens.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so, Amanda, if you could take us through this

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Speaker 1: time period, this ten o'clock till the ambulance arrived, and

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Speaker 1: what started off as a very normal average night with

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Speaker 1: a child that seemed to be behaving normally, after this fall,

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Speaker 1: if you could just take us through the sequence of

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Speaker 1: events because I think people and really learn something from this.

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Speaker 3: That night, Heather and I had taken all of the kids,

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Speaker 3: meaning my children as well as her two, and we

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Speaker 3: had gone to Chick fil A. The kids played eight

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Speaker 3: I stopped for ice cream for all the kids. Once

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Speaker 3: we got back to my house, all the kids played,

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Speaker 3: we did baths and all that good stuff, and then bedtime.

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Speaker 3: Heather and I sat in the living room just chit

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Speaker 3: chatting like normal, and Olivia was still up. Around ten

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Speaker 3: ten thirty, Heather had set the pack and play up

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Speaker 3: and I laid Olivia down so she could go to sleep.

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Speaker 3: Shortly after that, probably around eleven, Heather went home because

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Speaker 3: she had to work the next day. After she left,

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Speaker 3: I was just watching TV. I had to get up

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Speaker 3: to use the bathroom, and whenever I came back around

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Speaker 3: the corner, Olivia was on the side of the playpen,

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Speaker 3: which she had tried several times before to climb out

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Speaker 3: of the playpen, but just hadn't actually climbed out yet.

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Speaker 3: When I saw her, I just said her name quickly,

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Speaker 3: just said Olivia. And when I did is when she

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Speaker 3: went off of the side of the When I came

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Speaker 3: around the playpen, there was nothing to indicate that she

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Speaker 3: had hit her head. She had looked to me like

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Speaker 3: she had hit her butt, and that's when she had

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Speaker 3: the small cut on her tongue, and I dabbed it

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Speaker 3: with a paper towel to make sure it was okay,

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Speaker 3: and checked her. She was fine, and then I let

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Speaker 3: her down so she could play for a little while,

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Speaker 3: and she played with some balls that we had in

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Speaker 3: a little container there, and after some time she laid

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Speaker 3: down on the love seat beside me and went to sleep.

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Speaker 3: After she had been asleep for a little while, my

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Speaker 3: then husband was on his way home and would call

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Speaker 3: just to let me know that he was on his way,

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Speaker 3: and I went to move Olivia into the playpen so

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Speaker 3: that she could sleep, and uh, something just didn't feel right.

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Speaker 3: She just didn't feel right. After I got off the

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Speaker 3: phone with him, once he came in the door, I

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Speaker 3: knew something was wrong. Her breathing steamed shallow, so I

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Speaker 3: had started CPR. He called nine to one one, and

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Speaker 3: shortly after the first responder got there and began CPR himself,

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Speaker 3: and the next thing I knew was being at the

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Speaker 3: hospital and them saying that she was pronounced dead at

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Speaker 3: the hospital.

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Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company,

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Speaker 1: and by Accentsure, a global professional services company with leading

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Speaker 1: capabilities in digital, cloud and security. Working to reform the

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Speaker 1: criminal justice system is a key pillar of the AIG

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Speaker 1: pro Bono program, which provides free legal services and other

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Speaker 1: support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need

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Speaker 1: as part of Eccensure's commitment to racial and civil justice.

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Speaker 1: Accenture's Legal Access Program provides pro bono legal services in

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Speaker 1: partnership with more than forty organizations, bringing meaningful change to

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Speaker 1: people and communities worldwide. So doctors examined Olivia and determined

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Speaker 1: that she died of a skull fracture and a brain bleed. However,

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Speaker 1: a medical examiner also opined incorrectly that the injuries were

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Speaker 1: not consistent with a playpen fall. Right, So we know

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Speaker 1: that in cases of accidental death of a child, the

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Speaker 1: authority's default is to say that there was abuse, and

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Speaker 1: as Kate pointed out, they typically attributed it to the

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Speaker 1: last person who was around the child. That part would

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Speaker 1: be logical if there was actual abuse, but of course

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Speaker 1: in this case, it was an accident and you were

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Speaker 1: the last person known to be with the baby. The case.

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Speaker 1: On top of all the other problem is dree national

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Speaker 1: attention because of the fact that you had a father

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Speaker 1: who was by now a famous actor, right, And we

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Speaker 1: know that has a big impact as well. When the

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Speaker 1: media gets involved, it ramps up the price, and it

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Speaker 1: also creates an environment in which it's less likely that

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Speaker 1: you'll get a fair trial because it's hard to be

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Speaker 1: an impartial juror when you've been reading that this woman

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Speaker 1: as a monster who killed this baby, right, especially the

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Speaker 1: small town with a famous father. But the fact is

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Speaker 1: you weren't arrested for quite some time, right, right.

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Speaker 3: It was approximately six months later. Olivia passed in October

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Speaker 3: of two thousand and eight, and it was May of

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Speaker 3: two thousand and.

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Speaker 1: Nine, and by now, of course, in May of two

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Speaker 1: thousand and nine, you were charged with first degree murder,

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Speaker 1: among other things. So now let's go to trial. Orange Oscio,

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Speaker 1: A chief medical examiner, jan Garavalia, determined that Olivia's death

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Speaker 1: was a homicide based on the autopsy. She found a

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Speaker 1: three and a half inch fraction on Olivia's skull, bleeding

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Speaker 1: and swelling in her brain, hemorrhaging behind her eyes, and

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Speaker 1: cuts on her tongue. Now. At trial, Garvalia and another

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Speaker 1: expert testified that the skull fracture was quote inconsistent with

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Speaker 1: an accident fall and could only be caused by a

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Speaker 1: car accident or being slammed against a wall, proving that

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Speaker 1: Olivia was abused end quote. The state also claimed, and

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Speaker 1: this is bananas, that Olivia was too young to climb

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Speaker 1: out of her playpen, as if there's an exact age

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Speaker 1: when kids can climb out of her playpen, right, Kate

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Speaker 1: tell us some of the other things that went wrong

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Speaker 1: here at this critical, critical stage, Well.

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Speaker 2: There were a couple of things about Amanda's case and

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Speaker 2: about Olivia's death that really complicate the picture. One of

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Speaker 2: the things that we were very concerned about when we

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Speaker 2: looked at her case on post conviction was that the

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Speaker 2: medical examiner did not preserve, as far as we could

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Speaker 2: ever discover a piece of the bone the fracture itself,

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Speaker 2: So there was no way to look at the fracture

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Speaker 2: itself to tell how old it was. And that's important

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Speaker 2: because Amanda had been nowhere near Olivia for the weeks

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Speaker 2: leading up to her death. She was visiting her dad.

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Speaker 2: She was out of the state, so it was really

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Speaker 2: important to know how old this fracture was, and the

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Speaker 2: reasons that we had to believe that it was older

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Speaker 2: was that upon careful inspection of the tissues that were

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Speaker 2: preserved from autopsy that were above and below the fracture,

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Speaker 2: those appeared to have blood protonaceous material in them that

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Speaker 2: was older. So it indicated that there could have been

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Speaker 2: some older injury there, and that made it very likely

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Speaker 2: that the fracture was an older fracture. And that's important

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Speaker 2: because a child can and you know, it doesn't happen

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Speaker 2: very often, but a child can be critically injured or

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Speaker 2: die from a fall like that, from a fall out

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Speaker 2: of a platepan into a hard floor, But a delicate child,

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Speaker 2: a child with an injury, is more likely to be

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Speaker 2: seriously injured in that kind of a fall. It makes

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Speaker 2: more sense that someone who's already hurt would reinjure their

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Speaker 2: existing injury, So that was really problematic. It was also

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Speaker 2: really problematic the way that they tried to place the

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Speaker 2: blame upon Amanda. So the story that the state told

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Speaker 2: at trial to accuse her was really internally inconsistent. The

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Speaker 2: timeline was very fuzzy. They said all sorts of things

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Speaker 2: that weren't borne out by the physical evidence. So I'll

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Speaker 2: give you one example. After Olivia had her fall, Amanda

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Speaker 2: sat up with her for a little while, and, you know,

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Speaker 2: as you might do with a child who's upset, let

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Speaker 2: her play, gave her a snack. She had banana and

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Speaker 2: some fruit snacks, and those were found in her stomach

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Speaker 2: at autopsy. So there's pretty clear physical evidence corroborating what

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Speaker 2: Amanda said. And yet at the trial, doctors testified that

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Speaker 2: Amanda couldn't have been telling the truth because Olivia had

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Speaker 2: a cut on her tongue that would have prevented her

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Speaker 2: from eating. But that doesn't make any sense. We had

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Speaker 2: incontrovertible physical evidence that she indeed eight, but instead the

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Speaker 2: subjective speculation of the medical examiner seemed to sort of

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Speaker 2: trump that objective evidence.

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Speaker 1: And that testimony. It's going to hit hard with a

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Speaker 1: jury because why would they doubt what this guy, this

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Speaker 1: very learned and educated person is saying. Right, one would

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Speaker 1: need to see evidence to the contrary in order to

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Speaker 1: have any degree of healthy skepticism, even though we know

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Speaker 1: that the standard is supposed to be beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 1: But that's not the way it works. In courtrooms. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: especially in cases like this, is really guilty until proven innocent,

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Speaker 1: and that takes us to the defense. Was there any

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Speaker 1: defense expert presented anything to counter this false narrative that

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Speaker 1: the medical examiner was putting out there?

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Speaker 3: There were two defense experts that were at the time.

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Speaker 3: My experts had information to the effect, for example, the

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Speaker 3: videos showing other children of similar age climbing out of

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Speaker 3: playpens and cribs and such, of the old injury and

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Speaker 3: what happens with when that iron starts to build up,

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Speaker 3: and how that indicates that it's an old injury and

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Speaker 3: had to have at least been I be least seventy

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Speaker 3: two hours of healing that had already started. There was

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Speaker 3: a lot of evidence that was critical to my case

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Speaker 3: that my experts were not allowed to discuss because it

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Speaker 3: had not been disclosed to the prosecution prior to the

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Speaker 3: trial date. Their entire testimony wasn't even allowed.

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Speaker 1: Oh so that's a big mistake on your defense team side.

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Speaker 1: They had the evidence but couldn't present it because they

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Speaker 1: had either forgotten or just botched it right.

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Speaker 3: Well, my attorneys changed so many times through the Public

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Speaker 3: Defender's office. My initial attorney had moved to another state,

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Speaker 3: and then someone else came on, and then the very

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Speaker 3: last attorney was added about ten days prior to trial,

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Speaker 3: maybe fourteen days before trial.

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Speaker 1: Wow, how long was the trial?

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Speaker 2: Four days?

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Speaker 1: Four days for a first degree murder case?

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Speaker 3: And there was even a comment made on the first

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Speaker 3: day of trial that they were sure they could get

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Speaker 3: it wrapped up by the weekend because it was a

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Speaker 3: Memorial Day weekend and the prosecutor had plans for Memorial

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Speaker 3: Day weekend, right.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure the inference there was a you jury

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Speaker 1: members probably want to get home too, You probably have

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Speaker 1: some great stuff going on. Yeah, that doesn't sit very well.

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Speaker 1: So okay, four day trial. Everyone's trying to get home

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Speaker 1: from Memorial Day. You're facing a charge of could city

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Speaker 1: to prison for the rest of your life or crying

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Speaker 1: that you know and everybody should have known you didn't

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Speaker 1: commit and the jury goes out. What were you thinking

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Speaker 1: at this time?

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Speaker 3: I still had this belief in this system that my

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Speaker 3: entire life I had believed worked. I went in there

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Speaker 3: knowing that I was going home because innocent people don't

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Speaker 3: go to person. And when they said not guilty on

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Speaker 3: the first two counts, I was like, finally, and then

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Speaker 3: they say guilty on the third count, which was manslaughter.

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Speaker 3: My entire world crumbled right then because what I knew

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Speaker 3: is a working system failed, not just me, but my children.

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Speaker 3: Right then, I mean, all I'm thinking is who's going

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Speaker 3: to raise my daughters? What's going to happen? Now you

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Speaker 3: just fall to the deepest pit of despair. There's no

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Speaker 3: one who can hear you at that point. It's just

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Speaker 3: a lonely dark place. They took me to Lowell Correctional

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Speaker 3: which is in Oakalla, Florida. It's a maximum security women's facility.

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Speaker 3: And of course, other than this, I've never been in trouble,

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Speaker 3: arrested anything. So I'm going into one of the worst

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Speaker 3: women's prisons in Florida and was there maybe two weeks

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Speaker 3: and was placed into protective custom to because someone tried

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Speaker 3: to extort money from my family because it was a

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Speaker 3: hyprofolt case. And then they sent me all the way

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Speaker 3: to Homestead, which is basically the end of Florida because

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Speaker 3: of liability reasons. They didn't want me close to where

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Speaker 3: family and the situations could all be close to the facility.

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Speaker 1: So now you're far away from your family. Did you

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Speaker 1: have opportunities to get visits while you were there.

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Speaker 3: I did. In the beginning. My daughters went to stay

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Speaker 3: with my mom because that was just the safest place

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Speaker 3: for them to be at the time, and for about

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Speaker 3: the first year she was good to bring them, and

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Speaker 3: after that she just kind of used that situation to

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Speaker 3: push me out and take them under her own wing.

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Speaker 3: So then I was isolated for my children too. So

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Speaker 3: for those first couple of years, it was nothing but

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Speaker 3: crying and sadness and just loneliness. And on my second year,

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Speaker 3: I just decided that I wasn't going to allow an

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Speaker 3: injustice to completely strip me of who I was, and

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Speaker 3: so I just turned it all around. I started taking

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Speaker 3: college classes, I started into culinary arts and exercising and

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Speaker 3: doing things that would better myself in my mind and

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Speaker 3: keep me sharp.

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Speaker 1: So good that you did too, because you had a

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Speaker 1: lot of work to do, and I think it's safe

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Speaker 1: to say you wouldn't be here today if not for

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Speaker 1: the fact that you did find that extra gear. Right,

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Speaker 1: So you originally denied a new trial. Right direct appeals

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Speaker 1: concluded in late twenty thirteen, and the court didn't even

436
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,679
Speaker 1: have anything else to say. No additional comments. But then

437
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, the NSIS Project of Florida, and of

438
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: course the Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences, also on

439
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: the CIFS, took on representation for you. Did you at

440
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: this point start to see the light at the end

441
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 1: of the tunnel?

442
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 3: I did, And it couldn't have been at a better time,

443
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 3: because I had hit a point that I was just done.

444
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 3: It was so hopeless, and I was right on the

445
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 3: verge of giving up. And then the NSS Project showed

446
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 3: up and it was like everything started to turn around

447
00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 3: right at that moment.

448
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 1: Right, Hey, how did you get involved? As many villains

449
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: as there on this case are a number of heroes

450
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,239
Speaker 1: as well, and you're one of them. So tell us

451
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,239
Speaker 1: what happened back then, take us through it.

452
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 2: So Amanda's case came to me when I was still

453
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 2: working at the University of Wisconsin Law School, and she

454
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 2: had a team of people who believed in her innocence,

455
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 2: who wanted to see her get exonerated. And one of

456
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 2: those was actually doctor John Plunkett, one of the experts

457
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 2: who testified at her trial. He was so troubled by

458
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 2: this case. He was very upset about the way that

459
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: things had gone, and so I started to hear about

460
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: her case from a number of different folks, and as

461
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: I dug more into it, it was so clear that

462
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 2: it was so similar to the other cases that I'd

463
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 2: done with innocent clients who'd been wrongfully convicted with very

464
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,360
Speaker 2: similar facts, and so I knew that we would need

465
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 2: a team that included local council in Florida. And the

466
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 2: best person I could think of there was Steth Miller

467
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: at the Innocence Project of Florida. So I called him

468
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 2: up and we agreed to work on this case together.

469
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 2: She had a pending deadline, so we actually had to

470
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: pull it together fairly quickly. Amanda had some family members

471
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: who were very devoted to her innocence who actually drove

472
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 2: from Indiana to my office where I was working in

473
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 2: Wisconsin with boxes and boxes of discovery and files and

474
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: spent probably two days in my office scanning everything in

475
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 2: And so we started working out basically this big brief

476
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 2: and we filed at the beginning of twenty fifteen, and

477
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: some of.

478
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: The things in the motion, scientific and medical expert witness

479
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 1: opinions were cited that proved that short distance falls like

480
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: the one that little Olivia took from the playpen can

481
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: cause serious injury and death, and had led the US

482
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 1: Consumer Product Safety Commission to warn about the potentially lethal

483
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: danger of short distance falls from playpens, shopping carts, child seats,

484
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: and high chairs. They also presented evidence demonstrating that the

485
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 1: States claimed that Olivia was too young to climb out

486
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: of her playpen was patently false. They presented a twenty

487
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: eleven study examining the injuries associated with cribs, playpens, and

488
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 1: bassinettes of one hundred and eighty one thousand, six hundred

489
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: and fifty four children younger than two years old. So

490
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: this is like boom, right, Yeah.

491
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 2: What that study showed is that children fall out of

492
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: playpens and cribs relatively frequently, and they relatively frequently do

493
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 2: it on their own.

494
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: So fast forward now to twenty twenty, when Amanda was

495
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: granted an evidential hearing that could have led to a

496
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: new trial. Right, But within days of the hearing that

497
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: was planned for early September twenty twenty, the state prosecutors

498
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: came along and offered you a deal, Amanda. Right. They

499
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: said that if you stop pressing your innocence in court,

500
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: you could go home immediately rather than roll the dice,

501
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: I guess, because even if the conviction was overturned at

502
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: the new trial, you could have still faced an additional

503
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: twenty years if you've been convicted again. Of course, who

504
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: knows what they could have convicted you up. So how

505
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: did you feel at this point? I mean, here you were.

506
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: Now you've got the fantastic representation, people who not only

507
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,239
Speaker 1: really believe with you, but are eminently qualified and had

508
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: actually done exactly what they set out to do, which

509
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: is proven that you were as innocent as you always

510
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: said that you were. And now here comes this Sophie's choice.

511
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 3: Really right, after a certain amount of time that I

512
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 3: had been incarcerated, I actually became a law clerk and

513
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 3: started helping others on their cases. And after time and

514
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 3: time again of seeing just how badly the system would

515
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 3: railroad people, I just lost all faith in justice period.

516
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 3: So I just came to a point where it's like,

517
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 3: what do I do here? And at that point, my

518
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 3: family needed me more than I needed to keep the

519
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 3: fight going and risk still not being able to be

520
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 3: there for them, because it was no longer about right

521
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,959
Speaker 3: or wrong. It was all about making sure that I

522
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 3: was doing what was right for us family, even if

523
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 3: it meant that I had to just accept the deal

524
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 3: and go home.

525
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: It's not hard for me to understand why you did

526
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: what you did, even as hard as it must have been.

527
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: So now you're free, And how has it been now

528
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: that you've been free and home for a year.

529
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 3: I have been incredibly blessed because I have an amazing husband,

530
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 3: I have an amazing support system, so I didn't require

531
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 3: a lot of external resources to get back on my feet.

532
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 3: If it wasn't for that, I don't know how well

533
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 3: I could have fared well.

534
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: Amanda. All I can say is you're a hero to

535
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: me and so many other people hearing your story. Now

536
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: we have what I always say is my favorite part

537
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: of the show. This is the part of the show

538
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: that I think our listeners have come to expect them

539
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: look forward to as well, which is called closing arguments,

540
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: and closing arguments works like this. I thank you both again,

541
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: Kate Judson and Amanda Brumfield, for being here and taking

542
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,479
Speaker 1: your time out to share this very very important story.

543
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: And then I'm going to kick back in my chair,

544
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: turn my microphone off, and leave my headphones on and

545
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: just listen, Kate, I'll do respect to you, but we're

546
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: going to save the best for last, and that's Amanda.

547
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: She's the star, and we're going to let you share

548
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: whatever else you want to share with our audience and

549
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: with me, and then you can just pass the mic

550
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: off to Amanda, and that's how we'll close out the show.

551
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 2: Well, one of the things that I haven't gotten a

552
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,719
Speaker 2: chance to do yet is sing Amanda's praises. Amanda's story

553
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: getting out there is I'm sure going to help others,

554
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 2: but Amanda has already helped others. When she was inside

555
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: the walls and she was helping in the law library

556
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: as a law clerk. I know that she was helping

557
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: other women with their cases, and in fact, she was

558
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 2: a big part of why another one of our clients

559
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 2: came to us and was also freed right around the

560
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 2: same time. And so I know that Amanda has directly

561
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 2: helped lots more people than I know about. But I

562
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 2: can point to at least one person who's free today

563
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: in part because of her advocacy. And I'm just so

564
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 2: impressed by what she's been able to do since she's

565
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: been out. I know, not from personal experience, but from

566
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: talking to other folks who've been released, how very, very

567
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 2: hard it is, but she's handling it with such strength

568
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 2: and grace, and I'm so impressed. And what I would

569
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,479
Speaker 2: also like people to know is that there are still

570
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: accusations being made under this same paradigm, under the same hypothesis,

571
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: and they're happening all the time. And while it's true

572
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: that children are abused and that children can be seriously

573
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: injured or killed because of abuse, it's also true that

574
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 2: abuse can be misdiagnosed with absolutely tragic consequences. Now tragic

575
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: because an innocent person can go to prison like happened

576
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: to Amanda, an innocent person can end up on death row,

577
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 2: as has happened to some of the other folks on

578
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 2: whose behalf we advocate, And even if someone doesn't go

579
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 2: to prison, it can tear families apart as it works

580
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 2: its way through both the criminal justice system and the

581
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 2: child custody system. The other thing is that if a

582
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: child is ill and their misdiagnosis haven't been abused, they

583
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: don't get the treatment for their illness that they should get,

584
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 2: or it's delayed, and so it's critically important that we

585
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: re examine the way we look at these cases, and

586
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: the incredible power that we allow a small collection of

587
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: doctors to have over people's lives.

588
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: Amanda.

589
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 3: At first, I just want to say I'm incredibly humbled

590
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,719
Speaker 3: and grateful to even have the opportunity to get this

591
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 3: word out and to be a part of something as

592
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 3: big as an innocence movement like this. My biggest hope

593
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,479
Speaker 3: is that people will start to pay attention and not

594
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 3: just allow media to determine how they see someone. That's

595
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 3: how a lot of wrongful convictions happen. We don't use

596
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 3: our own intuition, in our own minds to see what

597
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 3: is real and what it's not. Instead, we're just quick

598
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 3: to convict in our own minds and our own hearts,

599
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 3: not knowing the circumstances or the facts, and just believing

600
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 3: in theatrics and oh well, it must be right because

601
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 3: it was on the news. We have to stand on

602
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 3: our own feet and we have to listen. If it

603
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 3: was not for the Innocence Project, if it wasn't for Kate,

604
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 3: if it wasn't for Seth Melissa. In the beginning, Christa,

605
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 3: everyone every step of the way worked so hard to

606
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 3: get me home, and as much as it pained me

607
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,919
Speaker 3: to have to accept a plea at the same time,

608
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 3: we still want because now I can be out here

609
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 3: and help someone else to not end up in this

610
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 3: same situation, and I can be a voice for somebody

611
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 3: who may not have one.

612
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Rafel Conviction. I'd like to

613
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn,

614
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis with research by La Robinson. The music

615
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated

616
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram

617
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and

618
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava

619
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow

620
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: me on both TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flam.

621
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is the production of Lava for Good Podcasts

622
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one